Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[blacbird]

*I still don't fully understand 2nd person POV. I'd like to learn one day.*

But here's a line from Patricia Cornwell Trace:

"How you folks today?" the pimply-faced young man in a uniform asks as he rolls in the cart.

Now, the "real-time" way this book is written in made it impossible for me to read. I don't know why, but it gave me a headache. It would be fine if it were just parts of it, but the whole damn book, even the narrative sequences, are in present format.

So what are the advantages to writing in this mode?

The line quoted has nothing to do with 2nd-person POV. It's in third. You're making an observation about present-tense, which is a separate and unrelated annoyance to some readers.

caw

[smsarber]

"You just snorted a whole bag of cocaine and feels like your head is going to burst" -- it's strangely affecting.
Crud,... now I have to go make a phone call...

Okay, that's straightforward enough, I get it.

[Neversage]

I have to agree with Sarber on second person. I find it distracting. It's a shame too, because there's a couple of book I would like to finish, but just can't because I spend too much time being annoyed at second person.

The odd twist: all of my outlining and scene summaries are written in second person, which I later convert to third, or first.

[Blue Sky]

Thank you everyone for co-creating this thread! Finally read it all with trips to many links along the way. Awesome.

Jim, a question for you. Would it help you and Doyle if we ordered your books through brick and mortar bookstores? Then your sales would register on their scope. I found Land of Mist and Snow at a local used bookstore, but I’d be willing to wait for others if it would help. Nobody asked this. The thread viewing figure shows that we could make a significant difference.

In the Unites States, we vote with our dollars. If we enjoy somebody’s services, let’s vote visibly! They have to eat too.

Or…you do eat, right UJ? We know that you don’t sleep much. J

Some thoughts after reading thousands of entries:

1. I type what comes as images, feelings, sounds and any other mode, but it struck me that I could find out what happens a lot faster with plotting. Hmm. Never was tempted to plot before. Exciting!

2. I missed the foreign language discussion by a few days! The army trained me as a Russian Linguist when I was nineteen. I’ve loved all languages since that time. I had to learn Russian grammar. This was a stretch, since I goofed around in high school English. For years I first referred to Russian for grammar questions in English. I laughed at the comments about this. Yes!

The ability to speak colloquially is an advanced ability and the ability to tell jokes and use humor in a native fashion is quite advanced. Think about it. How many native English speakers have this ability? Takes a lot of practice and EIA--ears in action.

I also speak Spanish proficiently and some German, Korean and Chinese. I’ve always wanted to be fluent in what I call the big four: English, Spanish, Russian and Chinese Mandarin. Took a semester in Mandarin when I left the army, but other priorities came along (programming languages). How sublime to practice writing characters in the evening with fountain pen, crickets chirping. I’d say it’s on temporary hold. Chinese speech is not so difficult. It’s the written language that’s challenging.

I felt like a seasoned world traveler, capable of handling whatever came linguistically until I went to China. If you don’t know the character, you don’t even know the sound. No alphabet!

3. Regarding Russian Novels, that’s how they use names. A Russian who didn’t use names colloquially would probably be seen as an ignoramus by many native Russians. References for clarification should be easy to find on the Internet. Doesn’t make it much easier to read--for me either--but may help ease reader resistance.

That’s it for now. Thanks again. Time to bic until I get to The End.

Phil

[smsarber]

The line quoted has nothing to do with 2nd-person POV. It's in third. You're making an observation about present-tense, which is a separate and unrelated annoyance to some readers.

caw
I never said it had anything to do with second person- that's why the opening line about second person was framed with asterisks. And I said the reason it annoyed me had to do with the present tense. I said I didn't know why it gave me a headache (every time I tried to read that book). Just wanted to clear that up;)

[MiltonPope]

One of John D. MacDonald's early books was written in the wrong person. Every time I picked it up to continue reading, I was surprised that it was in the third person. Every time.

As to present tense, it's always annoying, even when the book is "Presumed Innocent". Good story, but that didn't help. I'll never understand why anyone would think present-tense presentation is helpful.

[maestrowork]

As to present tense, it's always annoying, even when the book is "Presumed Innocent". Good story, but that didn't help. I'll never understand why anyone would think present-tense presentation is helpful.

It's annoying to you. Millions of others like it. The books sell like hotcakes. End of story.

[smsarber]

It's annoying to you. Millions of others like it. The books sell like hotcakes. End of story.

But does popularity by the masses necessarily make any book good? I think not. And you should know better, Maestro. Millions have read John Saul over the last thirty-two years, I just read Black Creek Crossing for the second time, and found it to be cheesier than I remembered. And at the end twice, with two characters he talked about their throats slashed and blood squirting from their aortas. I'm no doctor, but your aorta is in your heart; the carotid artery and jugular veins are in your neck. But millions still read. There is no end of story here- only each of our own personal opinions.

[Perle_Rare]

I understood Maestro's comments to mean that Milton Pope is entitled to his own opinion regarding the use of present tense. However, for him to conclude that "it's always annoying", which becomes a general statement encompassing all works in present tense and all readers, is objectionable.

[maestrowork]

But does popularity by the masses necessarily make any book good? I think not.

It has nothing to do with tense or POV, however. Plenty of popular novels written in 3rd person past tense suck.

That IS my point.

[KaysenParkerPlath]

Is second person when it's happening to you?

If so, I write my short stories in second person.

"You get up and walk over to the living room. You press your open eye against the peep-hole and see a dark figure. A dark figure with shiny black shoes."

[smsarber]

I understood Maestro's comments to mean that Milton Pope is entitled to his own opinion regarding the use of present tense. However, for him to conclude that "it's always annoying", which becomes a general statement encompassing all works in present tense and all readers, is objectionable.
I took that same statement to mean it was always annoying to him. But let's remember, all of this is subjective- Danielle Steele has sold probably thousands of millions of books, but to me any of them would "suck." Regardless of POV or tense. That's my point.

If you write the style you enjoy, you can go through life with a clear conscience. Nothing personal with romance novels, but they aren't for me. I've never, however, tried to write one. If I did, I might find I have a gift for it and sell millions of books. But, myself, I would feel that I cheated. We all have our preferences, both in reading and writing. I don't care for present tense, it tends to make my brain bleed. So I probably won't write very much in that style. But who knows, sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone.

I meant no disrespect to Maestro, I just felt that as a Mod, the "end of story" line was a bit magnanimous. Re-reading it, I see that it was probably curt, but with no malice attached.:flag:

[euclid]

My WIP1 is written in third person past tense. The POV is the MC's (mostly). But I have a few flashbacks to an earlier time and a totally different locale, which I have written in the present tense. I think this works really well. Maybe I will post some of this on SYW to get some reactions.

Maybe not.

Notice that I have now posted over 800 posts! Maestrowork beware! I'm catching up!

[maestrowork]

I took that same statement to mean it was always annoying to him. But let's remember, all of this is subjective- Danielle Steele has sold probably thousands of millions of books, but to me any of them would "suck." Regardless of POV or tense. That's my point.


You read it wrong. I was defending present tense.


I meant no disrespect to Maestro, I just felt that as a Mod, the "end of story" line was a bit magnanimous. Re-reading it, I see that it was probably curt, but with no malice attached.:flag:

I'm not a mod.

It was sarcasm. ;)

[smsarber]

You read it wrong. I was defending present tense.




I'm not a mod.

It was sarcasm. ;)

I meant I read Milton's statement as to mean present tense was annoying to him always and forever.

I could've sworn I had seen you listed as a mod, my brain's absent for the week... too much present tense reading;)

[IceCreamEmpress]

I meant I read Milton's statement as to mean present tense was annoying to him always and forever.

And that's fine. Not everyone likes everything.

But some really great writers have written exclusively in present tense. Damon Runyon is the most famous of these, of course.

[smsarber]

A good one for 2nd person: the children's books where you were in control of the adventure. Everything was happening to you, and you chose different paths to follow, sometimes to your own demise. Choose Your Own Adventure, I believe they were called.

[LeeFlower]

Smsarber, my recollection of Choose Your Own Adventures is that they tended to be, um, not very good. Haven't read one in thirteen years though, so maybe I'm remembering wrong.

One circumstance where I've seen second person work well is when it's clear that "you" is not actually the reader, but a distinct character the narrator is addressing. An example being John Scalzi's THE SAGAN DIARY, in which the narrator is speaking addressing her husband for most of the story. I'm not sure that cases like that really count as second-person, though, as they feel more like either first (the narrator) or third-person detached (as with epistolary novels, in which readers might see letters that address the intended recipient in the second person, but we're not actually inside the head of the person who wrote the letter--we're observing externally). UJ, am I on crack about those being second person?

[smsarber]

Well, maybe not written well, but they were entertaining for a thirteen year old boy with a sense of adventure, but nowhere to adventure to.;)

[Calliopenjo]

I think I missed those books. Off topic, I write third person for the most part. I'm just starting to write first person. I can do it in short spurts but after a while the She, He, They, creep in. Exercises that my writing group does every week give me a chance to practice first person. Do I notice a difference? Yeah, it's more there.

[Perle_Rare]

Read Twilight with Uncle Jim?

No. Really? :idea:

*Looks at the calendar*

Ah!... Of course! :e2bouncey :)

[bpmann]

Well, it IS the most important piece of american literature since the Bible... ;)

[khajidu]

In size ? :D

[James D. Macdonald]

Say what you will about Twilight, ol' Stephenie surely did something right!

[euclid]

Well, it IS the most important piece of american literature since the Bible... ;)

What planet are you from? The bible is NOT a piece of american literature. :)

[euclid]

I'm not a mod.

It was sarcasm. ;)

Well with sarcasm like that you certainly should be (a mod)! :)

[nevada]

One circumstance where I've seen second person work well is when it's clear that "you" is not actually the reader, but a distinct character the narrator is addressing. An example being John Scalzi's THE SAGAN DIARY, in which the narrator is speaking addressing her husband for most of the story. I'm not sure that cases like that really count as second-person, though, as they feel more like either first (the narrator) or third-person detached (as with epistolary novels, in which readers might see letters that address the intended recipient in the second person, but we're not actually inside the head of the person who wrote the letter--we're observing externally). UJ, am I on crack about those being second person?

I don't want to say you're on crack, but that's not second person. ;) In the Scalzi example you give since there is a narrator, even if most of the book is in "you" form, it is third or first person depending on how the narrator refers to herself, I or she. epistolary novels, also, are not second person.

Second person is a weird POV. It's even hard to explain because most people, when they think of second person, end up putting a narrator behind "you". (as in the Scalzi example) That there is some unseen person telling you what you are doing. But if there is an unseen narrator then it's not second person. It is closer in form to first person than 3rd person. In first person, the narrator is clear, it is the "I" character. In 2nd person, the narrator is the "you" character. I've written in 2nd person, and I think everyone should try it. It can be fun.

[smsarber]

That does sound like fun. Once I master third and first person writing, in about fifty years, I'll give second a shot;).

[allenparker]

What planet are you from? The bible is NOT a piece of american literature. :)

I kind of is... Don't we own the world? Doesn't that make all literature American?

I know I saw the deed around here somewhere. Somebody go ask Bush where he put all the deeds when he left...

<returns tongue to the center of mouth>

[smsarber]

Somebody go ask Bush where he put all the deeds when he left...



No, no, no... it was where did he put all the weed when he left...

[Exir]

Oooh... Uncle Jim's reading Twilight! Goodie!!

[RJK]

I'm beginning to understand why they are having trouble with the Middle East peace talks. You folks are hyper-sensitive about what tense a novel is written in. Please remember, everyone has an opinion. Your opinion is just as valid to you, as mine is to me. I don't think the literary world will come to an end if your opinion isn't shared by everyone else.

[smsarber]

No! Everyone will share MY opinion and LOVE it...OR ELSE! (Don't worry, my wife doesn't pay any attention to me either;))

[MiltonPope]

I should check in more often. I find myself involved in a brouhaha/rhubarb/dustup.

Maestro thought my statement was too sweeping. It probably was. If his response seemed curt, well, Maestro's one of the reasons I hang around here, and I'm always glad to hear from him. Also, Empress's mention of Damon Runyon reminds me that the annoyance isn't universal even for me. I like Damon Runyon.

--Milton

[CACTUSWENDY]

Not you too Jim?....sigh....all is lost.

[smsarber]

Happy April Fool's Day, Uncle Jim, and all the other great people here at Absolute Write...

WE ALL ROCK!!

(oKAY, SO a.f'S.d. Isn'T A hOLLIDAY... Let me have my moment)

[Perle_Rare]

Uncle Jim,

I was wondering when we could have fun disecting another first page? I'd recommend Twilight (which I haven't read yet) in honor of the day but anything else would do too.

[Neversage]

I haven't read it either, but I'd love to do the first page test.

[Calliopenjo]

I'm just going to say this. I went to Amazon.com and looked up Twilight. I read the first two pages of the "Look Inside" feature they have. Two things I pick out that are obvious. First is Bella Swan. If anyone is aware of the name Bella, it means beautiful. So the meaning of the name is beautiful swan. I don't know about anybody else, but I pick out my names carefully giving thought to their meanings and origins. She complains about everything starting with the first page. Okay maybe not everything since I only read the first two pages, but she complained about her father, leaving Phoenix, living in Washington where it rained constantly. That about encompassed the first two pages.

I wondered about this book, only because my oldest niece "loved loved loved" this book. After everything I heard about it, both good and bad, I was intrigued to find out about before spending what $15 (I haven't looked at the price in a bookstore so I could be wrong. Amazon.com has over eighty used books for sale under $10) for this book. Now I know not to.

[Neversage]

I read the first page, and only continued to the second because I'm familiar with the Pacific Northwest, and felt some connection. I read the second page, and turned only to find out why all of this information was important. I didn't find enough on page three to make me care.

I'll inevitably end up reading this book due to the demands of friends and family members, but I'm finishing the Grisham I'm on on first; and a few other books I haven't started yet.

[Meredith]

She complains about everything starting with the first page.

Makes sense. Swans are notoriously mean-spirited. ;)

[smsarber]

Makes sense. Swans are notoriously mean-spirited. ;)
Anybody read The Trumpet of the Swan? I was in maybe fourth grade, but I remember loving that book. It was about a swan who couldn't honk(trumpet) so a boy helped him, and cut the webbing in one of his feet so he could work the keys on a trumpet.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

[Krintar]

I was planning to avoid posting until I finished the first draft of my novel, but damn - the retitling of this thread took me from 'quietly amused' to 'cackling aloud'...
Also: hi!
//back to work

[MiltonPope]

She complains about everything starting with the first page.

That's quite a complaint. I mean, where else will everything start? [Missing icon of insufferable grin]

--Milton

[smsarber]

That's quite a complaint. I mean, where else will everything start? [Missing icon of insufferable grin]

--Milton
On page zero?

[euclid]

Jim,

I've noticed that many books can be bought from Amazon for crazy knockdown prices. "New and Used from $2.95" or "Used - in good condition for $0.01" Even some recent books can be bought in this way.

How does this benefit the author? How much royalty would he/she get from a 1 cent sale?

[MumblingSage]

Aw man, I missed the title of this thread yesterday. What was it?


Also, I don't know if this has been covered before, but: Pen Names. How do they work, and who decides them--you, the publisher, the agent?

[Perle_Rare]

Aw man, I missed the title of this thread yesterday. What was it?

Reading Twilight with Uncle Jim.

The AW site became a kind of Twilight "zone". All sorts of threads were renamed with Twilight references and many people had Twilight avatars. Even Uncle Jim sparkled! ;)



Also, I don't know if this has been covered before, but: Pen Names. How do they work, and who decides them--you, the publisher, the agent?

Do a search through the threads. There's a slew of them on pen names. I don't have time right now or I'd dig you up a few. Sorry.

[Kitty Pryde]

Jim,

I've noticed that many books can be bought from Amazon for crazy knockdown prices. "New and Used from $2.95" or "Used - in good condition for $0.01" Even some recent books can be bought in this way.

How does this benefit the author? How much royalty would he/she get from a 1 cent sale?

I'm not Uncle Jim, but...an author doesn't make any money from the sale of a used book! :)

[James D. Macdonald]

How does this benefit the author? How much royalty would he/she get from a 1 cent sale?

There aren't any additional royalties. The author already got paid for that physical copy.

Remember that the number one reason anyone buys and reads a book is because the reader already read and enjoyed another book by that same author. So the author benefits that way -- the creation of another loyal fan.

[smsarber]

There aren't any additional royalties. The author already got paid for that physical copy.

Remember that the number one reason anyone buys and reads a book is because the reader already read and enjoyed another book by that same author. So the author benefits that way -- the creation of another loyal fan.
Fans are where it's at, really, anyway. I want to make money writing, sure, but the gratification from somebody enjoying something I wrote is soooo good!

[James D. Macdonald]

Pen Names. How do they work, and who decides them--you, the publisher, the agent?

The short answer is: All of the above.

How they work is this: That's the name printed on the front of the book under the word "by."

As to why you might want one:

1) You're writing a series book. The publisher owns the name, and that's the name on all the books in that series. Examples include the Tom Swift novels by Victor Appleton, Hardy Boys books by Franklin W. Dixon, and Nancy Drew books by Carolyn Keene.

2) It simplifies things. When a pair of authors work together, they may have a pseudonym for their joint effort. For example, when Henry Kuttner and C. L. Moore wrote together, they published their novels under the name Lewis Padgett.

3) Your name might be confused with some other author's. If your name was Joanne K. Rowling or Stephen King or Dan Brown, your publisher would probably want you to write under a pseudonym.

4) The author may be very prolific, and may not want to go into competition with himself. Say there's an author who writes six novels a year. He may put those out under three different names, so that someone in the bookstore may say, "Wow! A new Charles Collingwood, a new Frederick Fane, and a new Rosa Belinda Coote! I like 'em all! I'll buy 'em all!" rather than saying, "Hmmm... three books by Charles Collingwood. I'll get this one."

5) The author may hate his name. For example, Sherwood Smith's name isn't Sherwood or Smith, but she really loathes the name that's on her driver's license.

6) Genre conventions dictate a particular kind of name on the jacket. Men's action/adventure novels usually have male names on 'em, romances usually have female names on 'em, regardless of the plumbing of the author.

7) The author may want to keep the various genres she writes separate, so that fans of her gritty urban procedurals won't be confused by picking up one of her cozy mysteries. Just as the number one reason someone reads a novel is they read and enjoyed a previous work, if they read and hated a previous work they won't pick up the next one by that same author.

8) The author may not want family/friends/church to know that he's writing steamy bodice-rippers (with a side-order of bodily fluids). Or an academic may not want the tenure committee to know that she's writing charming YA fantasies, lest they think she "isn't serious about academia."

9) The author may be caught in the order-to-net Death Spiral, where the only way out is to change the byline. (This is sometimes referred to as the "DAW Witness Protection Program.")

10) Or, maybe, the ever-popular Other.

[maestrowork]

In the other column:

The author has an ethnic name and would like to be more universally appealing for a global market or cross-genre demographic. John Smith is easier to remember and more approachable than Sergei Krinzanaski.

[smsarber]

And you could be a woman born with a man's name; Anne Rice was named after her father, Howard Allen O'Brien. Definate case for a pseudonym.

[maestrowork]

And you could be a woman born with a man's name; Anne Rice was named after her father, Howard Allen O'Brien. Definate case for a pseudonym.

Unless you write male-dominated genres such as military-thrillers.

[smsarber]

I stand corrected. Definate case for a pen name if you want to be recognized as a woman;)

But could you imagine her erotica books with the name "Howard O'Brien" on the cover? I don't know much about that genre, but it is my estimation that not many men write erotica. They'd probably be labeled as perverts.

Now here comes the slew of responses to tell me I'm wrong...

[James D. Macdonald]

Names that are difficult to spell, difficult to pronounce, or embarrassing, are, indeed, other places where you'll see pseuds.

John Shithousen will probably want to have some other name on the dust jacket.

[HConn]

In the forward to one of his Tucker Coe books, Donald E. Westlake said that the rule for creating pen names is to choose a plain last name and an unusual first name.

[smsarber]

If I used a pen name it would probably be Hammett Ulrich, the last names of the lead guitarist and drummer from Metallica. Would give me an eastern european mystique.;)

[Ken Schneider]

But, if you were a Publish America author, fear not. No need to use a fake name, for no one read your book anyway.

I should know.

For some reason or another I'd pick for me, Matt Dolphin.

[pookel]

What about, you have a unique name, so that a reader who googled you could easily find personal information about you - old blog posts, photos, home address, phone number?

That's the situation I'm in, and I haven't decided yet whether to submit with a pen name when I get to that point. My name is not that long or hard to pronounce (although the surname is slavic) but everyone with my surname is a relative of mine and I'm the only one with this first name in the world, as far as I know.

[Judg]

I will probably go with my maiden name. It manages to be shorter, easier to spell, and less common, all at once. And it will make it harder to find my phone number... ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

That's the situation I'm in, and I haven't decided yet whether to submit with a pen name when I get to that point.

You and your editor will have a lot of time to discuss this while the book is in editing and production.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

Wasn't there a story called Rosebud? Something about a little old man looking for his favorite book that he loved so much he called it Rosebud? I seem to remember something like that. I tried Googling but all I get are movies and a short story magazine.

The other option is I'm remembering wrong.

[James D. Macdonald]

Calliopenjo: It's entirely possible.

[Calliopenjo]

That I remembered wrong or there is a Rosebud?

[James D. Macdonald]

Either. Both.

[EFCollins]

Not to just jump in... but I thought Rosebud was a sled, not a book? I could be entirely wrong here and jumbling up more than one tale, but that's just my scrambled brain.

Edit: My mother tells me that is from Citizen Kane? I can't remember.

[Cyia]

Not to just jump in... but I thought Rosebud was a sled, not a book? I could be entirely wrong here and jumbling up more than one tale, but that's just my scrambled brain.

Citizen Cane bookends with "Rosebud" at the beginning and the burning of the sled at the end. (No one but Cane knew what the word meant)

[Ken Schneider]

Uncle Jim,

Wasn't there a story called Rosebud? Something about a little old man looking for his favorite book that he loved so much he called it Rosebud? I seem to remember something like that. I tried Googling but all I get are movies and a short story magazine.

The other option is I'm remembering wrong.


Rosebud was a house/Mansion, and there was a movie about it?

[Arkie]

Rosebud was a house/Mansion, and there was a movie about it?

I think the movie was Citizen Kane directed by Orson Welles.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. :Hug2:

[smsarber]

Rosebud was a house/Mansion, and there was a movie about it?
Thought that was Rose Madder?

[MumblingSage]

And I thought it was Rose Red.

[EFCollins]

Rose Red was the Mansion (Stephen King)

Rose Madder is a painting in a book. (Also Stephen King... and the book's title)

Rosebud from Citizen Kane.

[smsarber]

A-HA! Hell, I was close;)

[EFCollins]

<--- reads a LOT

Unrelated, but if you see this... Mr. MacDonald,

I've read a lot on this site about how to write better etc. However, I've found that my writing was better before I went and bought books explaining style and plot and theme, characterization etc. Since reading those books, it's like I think too hard about the task at hand, driving myself crazy over sentence structure and plot so much that I hit a big brick wall and knock myself stupid. Any advice for those of us killed by the writing how-to? (Just to clarify, the things that muck me up are the how-to books I bought, trying to find out the finer points of writing for publishing, nothing I've found on here has caused the drama I'm going through.)

Thanks in advance,
~Ellen

[SarahMacManus]

To work around blocks (I'm still of my own opinions on those in general) I skip ahead to later int he book, or the sequel, and write a scene I'm looking forward to. I may never use it, and will certainly change it, but it helps me get back into the fun of telling the story.

Ha! I thought I was the only one who did that! Subsequently, I have many scenes that don't happen until four years later in the narrative, which is two books away, and the ending of the last book.

[James D. Macdonald]

Any advice for those of us killed by the writing how-to?

Go get a whole pile of novels. Read 'em just for fun. Don't analyze, don't think, just read and enjoy. This is just for fun and to clear your palate.

Then sit down and write. Write without thinking. Write without going back to edit. If you're a good-enough touch-typist, write without looking at the screen of your computer. (I sometimes look out the window while writing. Other times I turn the monitor off.) Just blast it out. Don't write a novel; ignore plot and prose. Just tell me a story.

When you've reached 300 pages, see what you have.

[James D. Macdonald]

A post about writing (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006922.html) that I made elsewhere.

[Ken Schneider]

A post about writing (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006922.html) that I made elsewhere.

Makes lots of sense.

I write what I see in my mind, like a movie I'm watching and writing down.

Problem is, I tend to tell you what I'm seeing versus showing you what I'm seeing. I've struggled mightily with this, and after five years of effort at trying to write, I still struggle with this. I promised myself I'd give this writing thing ten years. If at the end of that time I've not achieved my goal, then I'll write the rest of my life and consider it a hobby because it's fun and I enjoy writing down a story. Sigh—ning off.

Ken

[jodiodi]

Rosebud was his sled.

[smsarber]

Rosebud was his sled.
Yep

[Perle_Rare]

A post about writing (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006922.html) that I made elsewhere.

Does that mean I should dig out the HMS Suprise model ship I started building about 4 years ago and quit working on when I destroyed the hull in an attempt to put in the bowsprit? I always did think I'd get back to it eventually.

I guess I'm going to need longer days if I want to fit all my activities in... :D

[EFCollins]

Go get a whole pile of novels. Read 'em just for fun. Don't analyze, don't think, just read and enjoy. This is just for fun and to clear your palate.

Then sit down and write. Write without thinking. Write without going back to edit. If you're a good-enough touch-typist, write without looking at the screen of your computer. (I sometimes look out the window while writing. Other times I turn the monitor off.) Just blast it out. Don't write a novel; ignore plot and prose. Just tell me a story.

When you've reached 300 pages, see what you have.

I can see that. I didn't think before the how-to books (Well, I did, but you know what I mean). I'm slowly making my way through this entire thread. It's taking me a while, but eventually, I will get through it. What you've had to say makes more sense than most of what I've read in how to books anyway.

Now I wish the Mind Eraser was more than just a ride at six flags...

~Ellen

ps: Thank you, Mr. Macdonald

[cooeedownunder]

Does that mean I should dig out the HMS Suprise model ship I started building about 4 years ago and quit working on when I destroyed the hull in an attempt to put in the bowsprit? I always did think I'd get back to it eventually.

I guess I'm going to need longer days if I want to fit all my activities in... :D

If you are into naval type adventures maybe you should read HMS Suprise by Patrick O'Brian :D

[EFCollins]

I guess I'm going to need longer days if I want to fit all my activities in... :D

I vote for a thirty-eight hour day.

[James D. Macdonald]

That would be the Metric Day, with 10 seconds to the minute, 100 minutes to the hour, and 100 hours to the day.

1 English hour = 4.167 Metric hours

The Metric Hour (otherwise called the Kilosecond) is scheduled to replace the English hour at midnight Greenwich time on July 12, 2015, under the terms of the International Time Standard Treaty of 2007. Scientists, who already use the Metric Hour for most computations, look forward to the change.

[mario_c]

That would be the Metric Day, with 10 seconds to the minute, 100 minutes to the hour, and 100 hours to the day.

1 English hour = 4.167 Metric hours

The Metric Hour (otherwise called the Kilosecond) is scheduled to replace the English hour at midnight Greenwich time on July 12, 2015, under the terms of the International Time Standard Treaty of 2007. Scientists, who already use the Metric Hour for most computations, look forward to the change.
That was in the play my ex-best friend wrote! You know why that was funny, too? 'Cause it's something they would try.

[Cyia]

That makes my head hurt. :(

[Judg]

Uncle Jim, you do know that April Fool's Day is over, don't you?

[RJK]

Uncle Jim - They'd have to call these units something other than seconds, minutes and hours. I could see the populace getting used to using the new units over a 50 year timespan.

Otherwise, we'd have to rename all those good movies. Twelve O'clock High would become Fifty O'clock High, etc.

[Perle_Rare]

Just thinking of the software complications is giving me nightmares. Computers and the decimal system aren't particularly compatible. If they were thinking of changing to a binary system, now that would be different... :D

[euclid]

That would be the Metric Day, with 10 seconds to the minute, 100 minutes to the hour, and 100 hours to the day.

1 English hour = 4.167 Metric hours

The Metric Hour (otherwise called the Kilosecond) is scheduled to replace the English hour at midnight Greenwich time on July 12, 2015, under the terms of the International Time Standard Treaty of 2007. Scientists, who already use the Metric Hour for most computations, look forward to the change.

That's right. I read about this somewhere. The proposed metric second is 0.864 of today's second. Much easier to count seconds. No more of this silly "one one thousand, two one thousand" nonsense.

But I thought there was a movement afoot to synchronize with Alpha Centauri. I think we should use Standard Galactic Time (SGT) like everyone else in the neighbourhood.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, Then sit down and write. Write without thinking.

This is almost exactly how some of my best stuff gets written. I sit down, begin typing, and then suddenly it's hours later and I've been so "in the zone" I haven't even realized much time has passed at all and I've got 3 thousand words down and the story's working.

I had this happen a couple days ago and the day after that. Got a 3800 word story almost completed simply by zoning in (as opposed to out) and focusing my concentration so into the story that everything else around just sort of faded to gray.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do we really need to discuss UTC (Universal Time Coordinated) here? Of course we do!

That's going to be a plot point in the next Peter Crossman novel (The Gates of Time, about which the editor is bugging me....)

And how about Sidereal Time, where time is measured by the rotation of the earth, not against the sun, but against the First Point of Aries?

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim,
Do you think you need more of an imagination to write fantasy or science fiction than to write in other genres? I mean, if you're writing a standard mystery you'll probably use widely believed principles, real investigative techniques, documented terminology, things of that nature. Your detective or cop will probably follow rules that mirror those used in real life.

But in fantasy/sci-fi the world (and the out-world) are up to you to create. If you have alien life forms you get to name them, decide what characteristics the Zenguist Tribe of Recton 7 will have, what climate their home planet has, the atmosphere, etc...

I think I have a bit of a limited imagination. I haven't really ever tried, but dreaming up new technology to use in a novel seems out of my abilities. I know some of the technology they used in the original Star Trek was actually used as prototypical ideas for things like cell-phones, and probably virtual reality. (Can't wait til they can beam me up, just hope they put all my molecules back in the right places;)!)

[MumblingSage]

Go get a whole pile of novels. Read 'em just for fun. Don't analyze, don't think, just read and enjoy. This is just for fun and to clear your palate.

Then sit down and write. Write without thinking. Write without going back to edit. If you're a good-enough touch-typist, write without looking at the screen of your computer. (I sometimes look out the window while writing. Other times I turn the monitor off.) Just blast it out. Don't write a novel; ignore plot and prose. Just tell me a story.

When you've reached 300 pages, see what you have.

Next time my friends and family ask why I'm typing with a blank monitor, I'll point them to this page, only they won't see anything because the monitor will be off.

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim,
Do you think you need more of an imagination to write fantasy or science fiction than to write in other genres?

More imagination? No. Just a different set of writing protocols, to be interpreted by readers using a different set of reading protocols.

What do we mean by reading protocols?

In a science fiction novel, if I describe what's on a desk, the reader will use this to figure out the level of technology in the society.

In a mystery novel, if I describe what's on a desk, the reader will understand that one of those objects is a clue.

In a literary novel, if I describe what's on a desk, the reader will understand it to be a metaphor for the protagonist's mental state.

And so on.

[RobJ]

Jim,

Describe what's on your desk.

Cheers,
Rob

[James D. Macdonald]

Stacks of books, papers, DVDs about the American Civil War, a flashlight, and a set of 19th century surgical tools. My computer, an action figure of Laura Croft, and an action figure of Emma Frost (the White Queen) with a little comic balloon above her head that says "Write your book. Now." Plus three different coffee cups.

[Blue Sky]

Hi All.

I read Land of Mist and Snow a few days ago. Enjoyed it a lot. It has a nice period feel to it, doesn't overwhelm with nautical terms and moves right along. I enjoyed the asymmetrical nature of the ships, crews and magical processes. Thanks for the read Jim. Glad I tried it.

Interesting to me was that I felt a 600 page novel as well, a lot more potential in the storyline. Did you feel this as well, Jim, or was this planned as a 300 page novel, or...? I'd be interested to hear about that part of the process. Although the process is the teacher, but I haven't experienced it yet.

Thanks,
Phil

[James D. Macdonald]

The book is as long as it turns out to be. When we got to 300 pages we were done.

[smsarber]

A-HA! Never thought of it that way, thanks UJ!

[James D. Macdonald]

As far as more potential in the storyline, in your better books (such as I *koff koff* write), you should have a feeling that there's a whole universe out there.

In fact, there's a short story set in the same universe, with one of the same characters, that came out in the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction about a year ago, and will be reprinted in Year's Best Fantasy 9 (ed. Hartwell and Cramer) this June. (We just got the check for that this morning.)

[smsarber]

I guess what I was really asking was how do you come up ideas for a planet, race of aliens or monsters, a language, that don't exist? That's what seems like it would take more creativity and imagination to me. But like I've said, I have never really tried to write SF or Fantasy. I've dabbled a bit, but gotten frustrated with the difficulty of creating a world based solely in my mind. Maybe I'm just lazy;)

But today's my birthday, so I'm thinking as a present to myself maybe I'll try a flash fiction SF story. To get my feet wet (I'm always looking to challenge myself). Any ideas for a plot, anyone?

[MiltonPope]

Stacks of books, papers, DVDs about the American Civil War, a flashlight, and a set of 19th century surgical tools. My computer, an action figure of Laura Croft, and an action figure of Emma Frost (the White Queen) with a little comic balloon above her head that says "Write your book. Now." Plus three different coffee cups.

Your technological level cannot be determined, involving glyphs on flat sheets as well as holographically stored moving pictures. You are obviously fascinated with powerful and mystic women. Your display of primitive surgical tools is -- probably a deliberate red herring. But I'd like to test the contents of those coffee cups. I mean, has anyone seen Lara Croft in the last few years?

--Milton

[MumblingSage]

Don't force yourself to write fantasy or SF if you don't feel like writing it. That particular pond is full enough. :P

I know I personally write secondary world fantasy mostly because I don't feel I know or like the primary world well enough to write about it. It's gotten better as I grow older and have more experiances, but really, secondary world fantasy takes mostly imagination (not to knock research, but I used to read history books for fun, so I never really consider having to look specifically for information). Primary world stuff takes real studying.

Yes, that's grossly simplified. So shoot me (probably with a lazer pistol, unless you have experiance or have researched how real guns work).

[smsarber]

It's not a matter of forcing myself. I write horror. But I also write other stuff: I do some mainstream, I did a conspiracy theory comedy that won third place in a contest, I did a western that won fourth. I want to be able to write in every genre. Versatility is important to me. And learning to write things out of my comfort zone can help me grow overall as a writer. But do not worry, SF writers: I will not flood your crowded market;)

[euclid]

19th century surgical tools! Wow! I had no idea you majored in trephination!
Can I use that in a short story?

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Steven,

As for ideas? The fanfic world is flooded with Star Trek from the original to DS9. But they are good as a starting point because that will at least give something to practice with. Then when you get more confident you can explore what works best for you.

[smsarber]

I just might try that. I only plan to write a thousand word or less story (flash fiction), just to see if I enjoy that kind of writing. And to break out of my current rut. So I will more likely use new characters. I don't know, though... I could do a diary excerpt from Captain Jean-Luc Picard... interesting thought. Esp. since I just got the first season of The Next Generation on DVD.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, As far as more potential in the storyline, in your better books (such as I *koff koff* write), you should have a feeling that there's a whole universe out there.

Interestingly enough, a partial story I posted a few days back in the Horror SYW forum illicited a response wherein the poster (soapdish) stated that they could see the potential for a much longer story in the 3800 words I'd put up thus far (incomplete story, but I'm working on it around when work allows me to).

The fact is, I find I like this character a lot and the universe he's in. There are a host of things I could begin to tell stories about surrounding the character (still gotta' figure out how to get him out of the danger he's facing in this first story though). It's like he just emerged full-blown into my imagination and he's telling his stories through me. It's a much different feeling to it from writing the novels I've been working on up to now and the short stories. It's more like listening to an old friend tell stories that are both frightening and outrageously funny in spots at the same time.

I've been trying to write mostly science fiction, with some horror in the mix (which I seem to have better luck with generally), and this could be classified as humorous horror or horror with a humorous vein. Could it be I found my "voice" and my niche? Maybe. I'm not discounting the possibilities.

What makes it especially good is this character is fun to write about. He's someone I'd like to have a beer (or a dozen) with while hearing him tell his stories.

[Blue Sky]

FOTSGreg: I'd say that's a good sign, to be interested in a character like that. When I started bic'ing soon after starting to read this thread, i couldn't wait to get back to the story. I decided to focus on finishing the thread and a lot of real world vehicle repair (just came in from bleeding the master cylinder), but I read a little of it yesterday and loved it. Maybe I'll throw it away as my first novel, but it's fun.

Jim: regarding three hundred pages and you were finished, I felt that too. The story doesn't need anything--it's taught and lean--but it was easy to feel the universe in that universe. Hmm.

"As far as more potential in the storyline, in your better books (such as I *koff koff* write), you should have a feeling that there's a whole universe out there."

Yes, I return to writers who write the better books with that feel. It's worth my time, as you said somewhere long ago.

So a guy like Stephen King fleshes out and dives around in all that potential, coming up with a 900 page novel. Extreme cases would be his Dark Tower series (haven't read them), Tolkien's world (lifelong favs) and so on. Oh, and War and Peace of course. C'mon. I know it's a classic, but is that really a novel? Seems like an epic.

I don't read horror, except for King. Once in a greeeat while I pick up one of his books, quite an accomplishment on King's part. I agree, btw that his short stories are quite good.

Then there's McInerny who dips briefly into this universe and comes up with a black pearl like bright lights, big city. I just read an old Jack Vance novel, very short, in which he got the job done in the amazingly convincing world of Tchai.

[James D. Macdonald]

"There are eight million stories in the Naked City; this has been one of them...."

Your protagonist didn't only have one adventure in her life, right? She woke up and did something on the day before the first day you recounted in your novel. If one of her jackets has frayed sleeves she wore it a lot.

Story is all around us.

Meanwhile, in a more appalling vein:

Writers Should Know Better (http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2009/03/writers-should-know-better.html) from How Publishing Really Works, QueryFAIL! (http://editorialanonymous.blogspot.com/2009/03/queryfail.html) from Editorial Anonymous.

O my children, go forth and do not do likewise....

[Chris Huff]

As someone who's been on both sides of the line (editor and writer) I can sympathize with stories like this. An acquiring editor friend of mine tacked up her first piece of hate mail just like some writers tack up their rejection letters.

As a former acquiring editor the best thing I can suggest for writers struggling to get published is this: follow the rules. Too many writers think "rules were meant to be broken" applies to them. Hint: it doesn't. It applies to that other guy, the published writer.

I'm sure there are many great writers here and some of them will have admirable careers, but here's the trick: you learn the rules and follow them. After you're published, then, and only then should you consider breaking the rules.

Acquiring editors are like Dirty Harry. "Do I feel lucky? Well do ya, punk?" And "Go ahead, make my day." The editor is buried under slush that is predominantly illiterate drivel. But, they're waiting, hoping, praying for something that's even half-way readable, hence the "make my day." And with all this crap filling their office, they're looking for an excuse to reject the work. You break the rules, you risk continuing to be unpublished, hence the "do you feel lucky, punk?"

From a former slush reader, please just remember that bit about "rules were meant to be broken" is for everyone else, not you. You should follow the rules. Especially those about spelling and grammar. And yeah, it really is about being entertaining.

[euclid]

Wow! What a dodo!

[Perle_Rare]

More imagination? No. Just a different set of writing protocols, to be interpreted by readers using a different set of reading protocols.

What do we mean by reading protocols?

In a science fiction novel, if I describe what's on a desk, the reader will use this to figure out the level of technology in the society.

In a mystery novel, if I describe what's on a desk, the reader will understand that one of those objects is a clue.

In a literary novel, if I describe what's on a desk, the reader will understand it to be a metaphor for the protagonist's mental state.

And so on.

Uncle Jim, I've been pondering this and I realized that while it makes sense and I believe, as a reader, I've been unconsciously doing this, I've never sat to think about it while writing. Where should I go to gain more insight into the different reading protocols for different genres?

Now, I'm guessing you'll instruct me to read widely. However, given that I've read a lot and I've never identified those subtle differences between how I process the information of each genre, how can I become more attuned to it?

I feel like you've given me a glimpse of an iceberg floating on the water and I can't help but want to see what's submerged but I'm not sure how to proceed.

[James D. Macdonald]

As it happens, I've seen one of Stephen King's original manuscripts, from after he'd already become Stephen KING. Y'know what it was? Courier 10, black on white, single-sided, double-spaced, with one-inch margins and a running head.

Nothing beats following the guidelines. They're designed to make things easier for the customer to buy the product, the customer being the editor and the product being your book.

All that the editor and/or agent owes you is a single word: Yes or no. Anything beyond that is gravy.

And if someone, anyone, critiques your book, and they're totally wrong about everything, don't get what you were saying, and have nothing but stupid comments, the harshest thing you should say is, "Thank you very much!" and mean it.

[EFCollins]

You mention double spacing, which I do. You mention courier 10-12, which I use. You mention 1 inch margins, black on white, single sided, which is also my normal formatting, unless a magazine specifically asks for single spaced, etc.

My question is, I had a writing acquaintance advise me to put two spaces after each punctuation (such as a question mark, period, exclamation point etc.) She told me the trick was to give editors what they are used to seeing and that for years, before the magical e-query and submissions, two spaces after a sentence was standard within the manuscript. Is this still necessary? Or is it a non-issue?

Thanks
~Ellen

[James D. Macdonald]

Now, I'm guessing you'll instruct me to read widely. However, given that I've read a lot and I've never identified those subtle differences between how I process the information of each genre, how can I become more attuned to it?



I'd say, don't just read. Also think about what the author is doing and why.

It's possible that you're an unconscious writer. Many are, including some of the best.

I am a more analytical writer. Many are, including some of the best.

Most readers are unconscious readers. Becoming a conscious reader changes how you'll look at literature for the rest of your life.

Now the idea of reading protocols doesn't originate with me: as far as I know it's something that Chip Delany devised as an explanation for how and why readers understand stories.

Here's Jim Gunn talking about it at greater length (http://www2.ku.edu/%7Esfcenter/protocol.htm).

He cites an earlier story:

Misapplying protocols is illustrated in James Thurber's classic sketch "The Macbeth Murder Case," in which a husband accustomed to reading nothing but mystery novels finds himself without anything to read on the Caribbean-island vacation on which his wife has dragged him, until the Thurber-like narrator suggests he try one of the few books in the resort's library, a volume of Shakespeare's plays. The mystery-reader reads, and reports to the narrator each day, his misapplication of the mystery's protocols to Macbeth. He discards Macbeth and then Lady Macbeth as too obvious and ends up deciding the porter did it. .

My question is, I had a writing acquaintance advise me to put two spaces after each punctuation (such as a question mark, period, exclamation point etc.) She told me the trick was to give editors what they are used to seeing and that for years, before the magical e-query and submissions, two spaces after a sentence was standard within the manuscript. Is this still necessary? Or is it a non-issue?


Non-issue.

All that you learn from noting if someone double-spaces after end-of-sentence punctuation is when and where that person learned to type.

(You can't see it because the interface strips 'em out, but I'm double-spacing after each period right here on this board. Every time. That's because I learned to type on a manual typewriter back in the 'sixties. People who learned how to type on computers habitually single-space after punctuation marks. If you're paranoid about it, you can set up a macro on your wordprocessor to switch back and forth. WordPerfect (which is what I use), has a little check-box toggle to make 'em all one way or the other.

If your story is fascinating; if it delights and surprises, no one will care which way you went. On the other hand, if your story is drab; if it's flaccid and pointless, no one will care about the spacing either.

There's a reason for the double-spacing, but it's part of the trivia of ancient technology.

[lexxi]

Now the idea of reading protocols doesn't originate with me: as far as I know it's something that Chip Delany devised as an explanation for how and why readers understand stories.

Well, I think it was already an existing concept in literary theory that Delany drew on and applied specifically to science fiction.

[EFCollins]

Aaah. So, if someone does that, you not only know how long they've been writing (typing), but an approximate age for them too. ;) You can glean so much from typing habits!

Thanks, Mr. Mcdonald. You just saved me some *ahem* space. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

If you're totally fascinated, double-space after a full stop is sometimes called "English spacing" and single-space after a full stop is sometimes called "French spacing." These long pre-date typewriters. There were also rules about spaces before and after other punctuation marks. As an aside, also dating to the days of hand typesetting, cliches were common phrases cast as single slugs to speed composition.

See also: Upper case, lower case, boiler-plate, and stereotype.

[EFCollins]

It's interesting stuff. I've read a couple of books set way back when where I've come across some of those terms, but I had no idea what they meant. I'm only 26, so I learned to type on a computer, but knowing about this stuff could be useful for some reason or another. Maybe a story about way back when, character being a person who does hand typesetting and secretly puts subliminal messages in the work they prepare... hmmm. Maybe he could have a special typecase and be wicked, wicked, wicked. Cause all kinds of chaos.

See? It's amazing what you can do with useless information.:)

[Old Hack]

Meanwhile, in a more appalling vein:

Writers Should Know Better (http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/2009/03/writers-should-know-better.html) from How Publishing Really Works, QueryFAIL! (http://editorialanonymous.blogspot.com/2009/03/queryfail.html) from Editorial Anonymous.

O my children, go forth and do not do likewise....

Thank you for quoting my blog, Mr Macdonald. Not only have you sent a whole slew of readers over to it, you've also made me smile.

[James D. Macdonald]

I learned a new word today: struthionine.

It means "resembling an ostrich; in an ostrich-like manner."

I doubt I'll be using it in conversation very often....

[pookel]

That explains the source of the dinosaur name Struthiomimus. (Which is one of the dinosaurs featured in a book that a certain 4-year-old makes me read to him almost every night. Struthiomimus looks a little like Ornithomimus, by the way, and they do both look a bit like giant flightless birds.)

[FOTSGreg]

The base word comes from the Middle English (at least) meaning "to strut"

Origin:
bef. 1000; ME strouten to protrude stiffly, swell, bluster, OE strūtian to struggle, deriv. of *strūt (whence ME strut strife)

It describes the animal's stiff-legged gait or methodology of movement. Scientists frequently will use a particular characteristic or trait that identifies a particular animal in order to give it a specific "species" name (hence the term "species" deriving from "specific" meaning "exact" (roughly)).

[smsarber]

You get everything here... even science lessons!
Uncle Jim, Here is the tidbit of fantasy I came up with. I just wanted to do a small little piece, but in these few words I see a larger story. So much for flash fiction. I just want to know if it has any potential, or if it's just crap.

KING ARAMAIN (working title)



1
“It’s nearly dawn, Your Highness,” the page, Lon, said as he shook King Aramain’s shoulder.

The King sat up, as usual he looked fresh, wide awake and ready for battle. It was a gift, the ability to snap to attention in the blink of an eye, and it was this gift that had earned the King triumph in many battles. Lon silently wondered if he really ever slept at all--or if it was just an act, like a controlled meditation.

But he knew in truth that King Aramain’s alertness was just one of many gifts bestowed on him by Heregrath the Wizard.

“Help me with my armor, son,” said the King.

“Would Your Highness like to eat first?” Lon asked.

“The anticipation of battle is forefront in my mind--no food, but perhaps a chalice of wine,” King Aramain answered. “But first the armor.”

Lon helped the king suit up, wishing he could go into battle today. The Moraloch tribe were fierce beasts, every able-bodied man should be out on the field fighting. He knew better than to ask, though. His duties were in studies, King Aramain wanted him to have an education. Lon tightened the leather straps of the King’s breastplate around his back, then handed him his sword and sheath.

“I’ll fetch the wine, now.”

“Fine, Lon,” said Aramain. “And don’t despair, we will be victorious. One day, when you are properly educated you may ride into war with me, at my right hand, but for now you will have to be patient.”

2
King Aramain stood in front of the mirror, alone in his chamber.

“He is a good boy. Strong and smart, soon I will have to tell him he is my son, before he figures it out for himself. When the time is right he will take my place, and I will go to take my seat at the Table of Kings on Mount Grandielle.”

(all I have so far)

[Kitty Pryde]

reminds me of a certain little lad who has to pull a sword out of a stone.

[James D. Macdonald]

Could be something, could be nothing. It's first draft. What can I say? You won't know what you have until you write it.

Now here's a Flash Fiction I just wrote:

Serial killer pretends to be literary agent to lure girls to New York and into his clutches. Bad stuff ensues. Good guys win. Film at eleven.

---------

If anyone wants to use that one, do so with my blessing. (That is, incidentally, a novel-length idea.)

[smsarber]

reminds me of a certain little lad who has to pull a sword out of a stone.
Don't worry, except for an owl named Archimedes I won't rip off The Sword in the Stone;)

It's fun to go out of your element. I did that little bit in a few minutes, went back and smoothed a couple lines because I just basically let it go without thinking about it, then said "Hey, I might have something here." We will see. I'll keep it around for a project to work on when I need a stress-relief.

[Cyia]

Could be something, could be nothing. It's first draft. What can I say? You won't know what you have until you write it.

Now here's a Flash Fiction I just wrote:

Serial killer pretends to be literary agent to lure girls to New York and into his clutches. Bad stuff ensues. Good guys win. Film at eleven.

---------

If anyone wants to use that one, do so with my blessing. (That is, incidentally, a novel-length idea.)

Sounds like that Tyra Banks "set-up" a couple of years ago where they set up a phony audition to see how many women would show up and notice something was off with meeting a scummy guy in a hotel room outfitted with duct tape, rope, and a shovel.

The number of people who showed up - and stayed - should be enough to confirm there's an idea there.

[EFCollins]

I have yet another question for you Mr. Macdonald.

I have a completed novel that I'm confused on. I've been looking into genre about it because, as a horror writer, I'm not sure exactly what it is. I thought it would be speculative/alternate history, since the novel is an alternate history.

The kicker is, though, that the novel in question is more about the effects a regimented upbringing and life long enslavement have on human minds. It is not a page turner by any means. It is my speculation on how the human psyche would be different had the outcome of WWII been different. There is a plot, but it's more coincidental and very slow moving. Someone told me that this would mean it is literary. I don't even understand what literary fiction is, much less have the ability to write it. Now, it is full of writer errors, and needs a bit more revision, but I'm almost done with that. I'm wondering if it's literary fiction? If so, I've been researching all the wrong markets and have to start from scratch.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
~Ellen

[James D. Macdonald]

Alternate history is a branch of science fiction, yes, but literary publishers do publish science fiction (see, for example, The Road).

I'm worried about your book, though. Do you like it? What are its good points? If you weren't the author and were trying to convince a friend to read it, what would you say?

[EFCollins]

I love my novel. It has some writers errors simply because I didn't finish high school. I'm working on it to fix simple mistakes I made in simple sentence construction before I knew how things are supposed to work. It's an older project that I'm fixing up. It's good points are that it is simply beautiful, this not being my comment, but one from others (my betas) but one that I share with them. It is beautiful. And touching, even for me after rereading it.

That being said, the novel is about a young Jewish girl in the future (our future, not post war future). She is a slave whose deed has been purchased by a prominent Aryan family in rural North Carolina. Laura is given as a gift to her new owner's twelve year old son. They grow up together and Laura being in young Ayden's life changes how he thinks about his "animals" (which is what any other race is considered by the "Aryans"). He and Laura marry secretly when they are older and join a rebel military group, called the Neo. (Name is being reconsidered atm) Laura's duties are to teach other Jewish refugees that they are not animals and are not owned by anyone other than themselves. She teaches the Aryan children whose families have taken refuge that what they have been taught through Hitler's long approved educational system is mostly lies. Ayden, however, uses military strategy to help this rebel group with the war against the Regime and to free the Global Republic, with his Uncle the President of the Global republic giving him his orders secretly via the commander of the Neo. The story is more Laura's than Ayden's, though they are married. Ayden's military movements are like a back story. He wants to free the world... Laura wants to free their minds.

Does that make any sense?

[euclid]

Ellen: Have you written a synopsis (6-8 pages), a short synopsis (1 page), a submission-length synopsis (2 paragraphs), a hook (one paragraph) and a logline (One sentence) to describe the book? These are great exercises for finding out what your book is really about. They will also be needed when you come to submit your book to agents/publishers.

[EFCollins]

I've written a one page synopsis that was total crap. My submission length synopsis is fine... the hook is fine. My 6-8 page is there, but still needs work. As for a logline... heh... yeah right. One sentence? I had a hard time getting my nugget paragraph.

[Neversage]

Serial killer pretends to be literary agent to lure girls to New York and into his clutches. Bad stuff ensues. Good guys win. Film at eleven.

---------


Uncle Jim, that is very similar to how I put down ideas. I have many documents with a working title that contain only a single paragraph. I'll even leave questions for myself.

Along the lines of:

Story about a guy who discovers the US president (fictional) has been replaced with a technologically advanced robot. Robot from foreign government, aliens, or future? He is forced to take matters into his own hands, rescues the real president, then the two of them kill the robot.


Wow, there's another one : D

[euclid]

I've just finished reading Perfume by Patrick Suskind.

Wonderful book. Seems to be his first book, too.

A number of phrases/words caught my eye, for example (on p 213):

"...the fog of gloomy foreboding in which he had tapped about for weeks had lifted."

I couldn't find this word in my dictionary. Seems like a strange choice of word. Is it really okay to invent words (in a debut novel)?

Also, half of page 6 is written in the present tense (the rest of the book is in past tense). This is a short scene where the MC is born. It seems an unnecessary contrivance to me. I mean, the scene could have been in past tense like the rest of the book, without loss of effect.

It's an interesting narrative method, told in third person omni, like a fable, mostly all telling with very little showing and hardly any dialog.

[Don]

"...the fog of gloomy foreboding in which he had tapped about for weeks had lifted."

I couldn't find this word in my dictionary. Seems like a strange choice of word. Is it really okay to invent words (in a debut novel)?

It's the past tense of tap. I envision a nearly-blind man tapping along with his cane, making sure the ground is firm in front of him.

[Perle_Rare]

"...the fog of gloomy foreboding in which he had tapped about for weeks had lifted."

I couldn't find this word in my dictionary. Seems like a strange choice of word. Is it really okay to invent words (in a debut novel)?

I read "tapped" as being the past tense of something related to tap-dancing but that didn't go well with the gloomy fog. I then thought it might be related to "tap" like a faucet: "Tapping the market for good deals", and so on. Still not right for the sentence. That's when I gave up.

Bottom line: I have no idea what that sentence says. :Shrug:

[FOTSGreg]

Seems to me the meaning of the sentence is that the person has been fumbling around like a blind person tapping his cane in a fog of apprehensive anticipation of something bad happening.

But that's just my interpretation...

[Loretta]

I agree...and I liked it...I like to see an author push the envelope a little and do things in a different way.

[euclid]

It's the past tense of tap. I envision a nearly-blind man tapping along with his cane, making sure the ground is firm in front of him.

But the guy wasn't blind, or even nearly blind. No mention of his having a cane.

[FOTSGreg]

Hehehe..., I see the term "metaphor" is wasted on some people...

(No offense intended, I simply couldn't resist)

[bettielee]

Seems to me the meaning of the sentence is that the person has been fumbling around like a blind person tapping his cane in a fog of apprehensive anticipation of something bad happening.

...

Or perhaps a writer fumbling around like a blind person for just the right word...

But seriously: Unca Jim - I really enjoy this thread - it was one of the first threads I stumbled across on this forum. I love the way you gruffly (but gently) swipe your paw at the imbeciles.

My question is: have you ever written ahead of yourself? As in writing the ending or the middle of the story/novel before you got there? I had a teacher suggest this in an "in-class writing course" and I wanted to run out screaming. (I eventually did - I do not write well under flouorescent lighting!) I felt like she was a man pressuring me into bed before I've gotten to know him! I admit that I've felt like a bit of a failure because I kept my knees closed and wasn't able to dive under the covers! Is this something really kooky, or do you "pro's" do this all the time?

(patiently waiting to be swiped)

[smsarber]

Euclid, perhaps you could post a little more from that paragraph so we can get a better idea of the context.

[cooeedownunder]

My question is: have you ever written ahead of yourself? As in writing the ending or the middle of the story/novel before you got there? I had a teacher suggest this in an "in-class writing course" and I wanted to run out screaming. (I eventually did - I do not write well under flouorescent lighting!) I felt like she was a man pressuring me into bed before I've gotten to know him! I admit that I've felt like a bit of a failure because I kept my knees closed and wasn't able to dive under the covers! Is this something really kooky, or do you "pro's" do this all the time?

(patiently waiting to be swiped)

I do all the time when I can't write the next consequetive scene or haven't been able to find the right words to move on. I find it helps to relieve writers block and allows me to continue writing the story instead of waiting for the muse to given me the next scene or chapter.

[Judg]

Bettielee, some people are comfortable writing out of sequence, others aren't. Whatever works. (Those last two words are the right answer for so many questions around here, it's insane...)

[Sn00py]

That being said, the novel is about a young Jewish girl in the future (our future, not post war future). She is a slave whose deed has been purchased by a prominent Aryan family in rural North Carolina. Laura is given as a gift to her new owner's twelve year old son. They grow up together and Laura being in young Ayden's life changes how he thinks about his "animals" (which is what any other race is considered by the "Aryans"). He and Laura marry secretly when they are older and join a rebel military group, called the Neo. (Name is being reconsidered atm) Laura's duties are to teach other Jewish refugees that they are not animals and are not owned by anyone other than themselves. She teaches the Aryan children whose families have taken refuge that what they have been taught through Hitler's long approved educational system is mostly lies. Ayden, however, uses military strategy to help this rebel group with the war against the Regime and to free the Global Republic, with his Uncle the President of the Global republic giving him his orders secretly via the commander of the Neo. The story is more Laura's than Ayden's, though they are married. Ayden's military movements are like a back story. He wants to free the world... Laura wants to free their minds.

Does that make any sense?

That sounds like something I want a peek at. I'm not sure how you could call this anything but a page turner unless you deliberately write it as boring, and even then I'd credit you as a very talented writer if you can suck out any excitement from such a conflict-heavy setup.

Then again, I haven't read it, so maybe you've managed to make it boring.

Or have I misunderstood what you mean by page turner? Are you just saying it's not an action piece?

If so, that doesn't mean you don't have a page turner. The Thirteenth Tale is by no means an action piece, but I could barely put the book down.

I recommend you check out Margaret Haddix and Lois Lowry, if you haven't already. They have written stories very much in the same line of what you have proposed.

[smsarber]

I think most of us do it. It's natural, really. I mean, you don't think of your story linear, start to finish. You'll get ideas for what will happen at different points in the story at different times. And it is definately a good way to shut down writer's block.

[EFCollins]

That sounds like something I want a peek at. I'm not sure how you could call this anything but a page turner unless you deliberately write it as boring, and even then I'd credit you as a very talented writer if you can suck out any excitement from such a conflict-heavy setup.

Then again, I haven't read it, so maybe you've managed to make it boring.

Or have I misunderstood what you mean by page turner? Are you just saying it's not an action piece?

If so, that doesn't mean you don't have a page turner. The Thirteenth Tale is by no means an action piece, but I could barely put the book down.

I recommend you check out Margaret Haddix and Lois Lowry, if you haven't already. They have written stories very much in the same line of what you have proposed.

No, it's not boring. It has action, but the novel isn't action oriented. You've hit it spot on as to what I meant. :) Thanks. It's pacing is... weird. It's like you want to read it slowly so you don't miss anything. It's focused on the character's and how they are affected by their world, how they grow to see beyond the lies, all while trying to move forward and grow beyond their restrictions.

ETA: I myself write out of sequence. I get down whatever scene I'm interested in atm and work it all together in the finished product.

[James D. Macdonald]

In the wake of the great Queryfail flap (Google on "Queryfail" if you're totally curious), here is a summary of Lessons Learned (http://www.jacketflap.com/megablog/index.asp?Year=2009&Month=03&Day=05&postid=314226).

Y'know how I keep saying "submit your book to worthwhile agents and legitimate publishers, following their guidelines to the letter"?

Note the very first lesson:

1. Failure to follow directions is an automatic rejection.

[smsarber]

I'm not usually very good at reading "the fine print", as I'll put it. Like when my son gets a new video game--I just glance through enough to tell him how to use the controls, and maybe a bit of the story line.

But when it comes to submission guidelines, I read word-for-word. And when I get to the point of querying agents I will make sure I follow their rules. I don't want my hard work to go to waste because I was too lazy to go about things the right way.

Speaking of agents, Uncle Jim, what do you think of the Association of Author's Representitives? They have a full database of agents, and the members have a code they must adhere to for representing writiers. That's where I plan to go to search for an agent.
Here's a link to the website:
http://www.aaronline.org/mc/directory/viewsimplesearch.do?orgId=aar

[James D. Macdonald]

AAR? Well-known and widely respected.

Not all worthwhile agents are members, but until you know the landscape that's the way to bet.

[smsarber]

That's what I thought. But it's good to have a second opinion.

[euclid]

My question is: have you ever written ahead of yourself? As in writing the ending or the middle of the story/novel before you got there? I had a teacher suggest this in an "in-class writing course" and I wanted to run out screaming. (I eventually did - I do not write well under flouorescent lighting!) I felt like she was a man pressuring me into bed before I've gotten to know him! I admit that I've felt like a bit of a failure because I kept my knees closed and wasn't able to dive under the covers! Is this something really kooky, or do you "pro's" do this all the time?

My son, who has Asperger's Syndrome, went to a 'special' school (for 'special' read 'dreadful') in Dublin. I had to drive him there and collect him every day. One day I was late arriving to pick him up, and the staff suggested that he should 'do something on the computer' while waiting for me. He sat down, typed in 'Chapter 23' and started writing a novel (a fantasy).

[James D. Macdonald]

I write out-of-order all the time. As scenes become clear to me, I write them. Later I decide (or Doyle does) which scenes are part of this book, and where they go.

[euclid]

I write out-of-order all the time. As scenes become clear to me, I write them. Later I decide (or Doyle does) which scenes are part of this book, and where they go.

I prefer to write in sequence, based on my outline. If I need to write, say chapter 10, while chapters 8 and 9 are missing, I put down a few words for each of chapters 8 and 9, and write chapter 10.

Every time you mention 'Doyle' I think you're talking about Sir Arthur Conan. Gives me a laugh every time. :)

[smsarber]

My son, who has Asperger's Syndrome, went to a 'special' school (for 'special' read 'dreadful') in Dublin. I had to drive him there and collect him every day. One day I was late arriving to pick him up, and the staff suggested that he should 'do something on the computer' while waiting for me. He sat down, typed in 'Chapter 23' and started writing a novel (a fantasy).
Now that is impressive. :)

[Ken Schneider]

I write out-of-order all the time. As scenes become clear to me, I write them. Later I decide (or Doyle does) which scenes are part of this book, and where they go.

I actually learned to do this from UJ. When I get the mid-book blues I write what I know I want to happen in the end or on down the line from where I'm stuck. For me it helps cultivate ideas of how I can move on from the mid-book blight by figuring out how to get to what I've just written post stuck.

[euclid]

Now that is impressive. :)

It would be if it led anywhere. He wrote obsessively for a few weeks, then stopped. (His mental history is a mess). I have all his stuff on floppy disks, but they are all password-protected. He has no interest in continuing with this now. He wrote what he wrote when he was about 16. He's 30 now.

I did read a paragraph or two over his shoulder, and it looked interesting. His MC was an androgynous warrior. There was lots of blood and guts, seemed like gratuitous violence, but maybe there was a point to it.

[euclid]

Jim,

I wondered about Amazon sales of books. They sell secondhand copies of books at knockdown prices. Also, they sell 'new and used' copies at knockdown prices (often through external outlets).

Presumably, the author gets no royalties from the secondhand sales. Am I right in assuming the same is true for sales of the new copies in this 'new and used' category?

Would royalties be paid to authors for normal sales of new books through amazon?

[James D. Macdonald]

Would royalties be paid to authors for normal sales of new books through amazon?

Yes, of course they are.

An author is paid once, and only once, per physical volume. When the publisher gets money for the sale, they send part of it to the author.

After that it's like used cars: If you buy a car from some bloke that you found through a newspaper advert, neither you nor he has to send a check to the Ford Motor Company. The only folks who send money to Ford are the new car dealers.

[FOTSGreg]

Okay...

What about ebooks? Say you had established an ebook store (online or brick & mortar) and sold copies there to folks off the street. Each ebook could, arguably, be considered a new volume.

In my opinion, not that it counts, an ebook dealer should pay royalties to the author (or at least pay the wholesale rate to the publisher so the author would get a cut of that at least), but that's just my opinion.

[James D. Macdonald]

Okay...

What about ebooks? Say you had established an ebook store (online or brick & mortar) and sold copies there to folks off the street. Each ebook could, arguably, be considered a new volume.

In my opinion, not that it counts, an ebook dealer should pay royalties to the author (or at least pay the wholesale rate to the publisher so the author would get a cut of that at least), but that's just my opinion.

And, except for the pirates, ebook dealers do exactly that.

Want to buy some of my books in electronic format (http://www.harpercollinsebooks.com/7FC1EC2D-9FD2-45AC-9946-BEE543B864CD/10/133/en/eBookDetails.htm?ID=F1E56DB6-02AF-4AC8-A304-D8B7B955799E)?

[FOTSGreg]

Okay... what constitutes a pirate ebook dealer? In theory, I could set up an online ebook store in about 10 minutes either through some service which charges a fee and never pays the dealer a dime (I've done it once in fact and never seen a dime in return).

Alternatively, I could set up an online ebook store with the ebooks I have access to and pay the publisher a fair wholesale price based on the retail price of each ebook sold at the going rate and the volume of sales.

One one hand you have an online version of a brick & mortar book store - you don't really care where the books came from (you ordered them, sold them, and paid for them in one fashion or another), and you're honest enough to want to kick back a percentage to the publisher and author - what is fair based on your sales. You even bother to obtain a reseller's license from the state.

On the other hand you have people and supposed stores out there that cannot offer half the selection you might be able to, but charge you a fee for the few ebooks you're able to offer through their store, and then never pay you the amount you're fairly entitled to according to their terms (there's always a catch somewhere - your sales don't add up to what they say, you need to pay extra service charges, etc., etc.).

Say I have an enormous collection of books and ebooks. Say I'd like to offer them for sale legitimately and pay the publishers and through them the authors a legitimate wholesale price and royalty. How would you recommend I do that without threats from some idiot saying I'm selling pirated books (even though I have a reseller's license) and trying to shut down my supposed little online bookstore?

How does an ebook dealer stay legit or even become legit in the first place?

[James D. Macdonald]

If you want to sell ebooks, talk to the publisher. Someone owns the rights; find that person/company and make a deal.

I don't think this is the right thread for this discussion.... but I bet there is such a thread somewhere at AW.

[c.e.lawson]

I write out-of-order all the time. As scenes become clear to me, I write them. Later I decide (or Doyle does) which scenes are part of this book, and where they go.

This is how I seem to be working on my current WIP, which is different from the linear progression on my previous longer stories. When the scene is vivid in my head, it flows so nicely. When it's too vague or blank, no amount of staring at the computer screen helps, so I've been forced to jump ahead to scenes that are more clear. (Which will make writing the transitions a large task in my revisions, unfortunately, but that's the only way I can make good forward progress right now.)

But Uncle Jim -- what do you do on those days where no scene is clear to you?

c.e.

[Ken Schneider]

This is how I seem to be working on my current WIP, which is different from the linear progression on my previous longer stories. When the scene is vivid in my head, it flows so nicely. When it's too vague or blank, no amount of staring at the computer screen helps, so I've been forced to jump ahead to scenes that are more clear. (Which will make writing the transitions a large task in my revisions, unfortunately, but that's the only way I can make good forward progress right now.)

But Uncle Jim -- what do you do on those days where no scene is clear to you?

c.e.

Write badly< of course, but write none-the-less.

[James D. Macdonald]

But Uncle Jim -- what do you do on those days where no scene is clear to you?


Throw any BS that comes into my head up on screen.

Let's see:


"There's a scene here," Maincharacter said. "Why the foo aren't you writing it?"

"Because I don't friggin' see it," the author replied.

"As if I'm going to take that for an excuse? Look, Lady McSwiggin is going to have to lose her necklace if Fred is going to find it in time for the action/adventure climax. So why not do that bit?"

"Because there isn't a Lady McSwiggin isn't in this book. Who the foo is Lady McSwiggin?"

"Hey, are you expecting me to do your job for you?" Maincharacter looked at the author with exasperation dripping from his moustache. (He had bought the exasperation at Al's House of Nouns; it was his last bottle.) "I suppose I do. She's the character with the necklace."

"That didn't clarify things. What necklace?"

"The cursed one."

"Cursed one?"

"Is there an echo in here? The cursed blue one."

"You just stacked two adjectives on one noun."

"La-di-friggin'-dah. Look who's going all English Major on me now. If you don't start writing your book, if you make me write your book, you won't believe what I'm going to do to the prose."

"Okay, okay!" Suddenly, without warning, a naked woman screamed!

It was Lady McSwiggin, and she was standing at the door. "Open up right now," she screamed again.

Maincharacter turned the knob and pulled the door in. "My lady!"

Lady McSwiggin stepped inside, as Maincharacter shut the door behind her. "Would you like a pair of jodhpurs?" he asked. "I think I have some that will fit you...."

"Never mind that. I need you to hide something for me." She reached behind her neck and unclasped the necklace that she wore. The blue pendant, a diamond the size of a dwarf hamster, lay distractingly between her breasts. "Take this," she said, pressing the necklace into Maincharacter's hand. "Lord Halfbaked must never find it!"


And so on.

[Judg]

I sense a novel in there somewhere...

[Blue Sky]

Ha! That's funny Jim. Do you and Doyle have a lot of laughs while sharing these parts? Nice to have each other as in-house faithful readers.

I'm on vacation for a week starting tomorrow with plenty of bic planned for the novel and my second non-fiction book. The uj thread and truck repair focus paid off--first time in six months I've had a functioning, road-legal vehicle! Thanks to your timely example, I feel free to verbally defecate all over my screen, if necessary. As Judg noted, the story is there.

A thought came to mind while browsing in a used bookstore today.

Over the years I've noticed that when a piece is finished, different readers enjoy different parts and may not get others. The nature of their comments is of a different quality than when something is not yet ready. I feel different about their comments as well.

Anybody notice that? In other words, the wide variety of faithful reader comments remains. However, the comments slowly shift from author fuzziness and reader clarity to author clarity and reader fuzziness.

At this point I often smile inside, amazed once again at the magical telepathy of written sharing. It's never the same, even with the same work and the same reader. We change, so our perception of a given work changes.

[pictopedia]

maincharacter threw the necklace in an elegant arch towards the author.

"There, you take it. Go forth and write something about it that makes me look good. And it better have boobs, nouns and guts."

author caught the necklace with a growl and threw it between the action figure of Laura Croft and Emma Frost where it tipped over one of the half empty coffee cups that immediately drenched the stacks of books, papers and DVDs about the American Civil war."

"See what you did?"

author looked up in anger, but the main character had disappeared. The still angry author's gaze wandered over the objects on his table.

"Lets see....boobs, nouns and guts,...hm."

His gaze halted on the 19th century surgical tools unstained by the coffee.

"What if the waiter deliberately stained Lady McSwiggin's evening dress with champagne. She had to go the restroom to dry it, and there she had made the doctor cut the necklace off with his surgical knife, thus leaving no recognizable marks on the heavy string that held the heavy stone in place, like a kitchen knife or a scissor would. Just a clean cut, similar to the one they would discover later, running across Lady McSwiggin's body and up all the way from her bowls to her b...."

author looked up in awe.

"Damn, I'm so good. Just need a few more nouns, but I'll find them tomorrow. No biggy. "

In thoughts he lifted one of the remaining cups and started to drink

"Yikes"

and so on.

[SarahMacManus]

I write out-of-order all the time. As scenes become clear to me, I write them. Later I decide (or Doyle does) which scenes are part of this book, and where they go.

I also frequently write out of sequence, especially when something is in development and I'm working my way through the plot and general feel of the work.

If I have ideas about how I want a scene towards the end to go, I don't wait til I get there; I sit down and write it. Sometimes it makes getting there a lot easier, because I already can see, vividly, what kind of person and in what circumstances, my characters are in the future.

I do a lot of basic plotting this way.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do you and Doyle have a lot of laughs while sharing these parts?

We absolutely do. Laughing a lot is part of our writing life.

[Calliopenjo]

Happy Easter Everyone!

[c.e.lawson]

Throw any BS that comes into my head up on screen.

Let's see:


"There's a scene here," Maincharacter said. "Why the foo aren't you writing it?"

"Because I don't friggin' see it," the author replied.

"As if I'm going to take that for an excuse? Look, Lady McSwiggin is going to have to lose her necklace if Fred is going to find it in time for the action/adventure climax. So why not do that bit?"

"Because there isn't a Lady McSwiggin isn't in this book. Who the foo is Lady McSwiggin?"

"Hey, are you expecting me to do your job for you?" Maincharacter looked at the author with exasperation dripping from his moustache. (He had bought the exasperation at Al's House of Nouns; it was his last bottle.) "I suppose I do. She's the character with the necklace."

"That didn't clarify things. What necklace?"

"The cursed one."

"Cursed one?"

"Is there an echo in here? The cursed blue one."

"You just stacked two adjectives on one noun."

"La-di-friggin'-dah. Look who's going all English Major on me now. If you don't start writing your book, if you make me write your book, you won't believe what I'm going to do to the prose."

"Okay, okay!" Suddenly, without warning, a naked woman screamed!

It was Lady McSwiggin, and she was standing at the door. "Open up right now," she screamed again.

Maincharacter turned the knob and pulled the door in. "My lady!"

Lady McSwiggin stepped inside, as Maincharacter shut the door behind her. "Would you like a pair of jodhpurs?" he asked. "I think I have some that will fit you...."

"Never mind that. I need you to hide something for me." She reached behind her neck and unclasped the necklace that she wore. The blue pendant, a diamond the size of a dwarf hamster, lay distractingly between her breasts. "Take this," she said, pressing the necklace into Maincharacter's hand. "Lord Halfbaked must never find it!"


And so on.

I think I understand what you're saying. We're supposed to:

1) Get our BIC anyway
2) Listen to our characters
3) Open our minds up to any possibilities
4) Write anyway

Maybe I'm too much of a control freak. I'm going to give this a try. Thank you.

c.e.

[Blue Sky]

Shared laughter adds up to a lot of enjoyment over the years. Must ease the task of writing tremendously. Now we're onto one of your secrets. :)

Thanks Jim. By the sound of it there are legions of suffering writers in the world. I've had my moments with my non-fic book, but overall it's been a lot of fun. I'm always amazed that I don't tire of reading it one more time. Hang in there everybody.

Started vacation bic yesterday by working on an article deadline coming up. Today to the novel. No other questions at the moment, only visions of cat waxing, to which our resident cat gives two ears back and a tail flip.

c.e.lawson: I'm there with you. Feels like flying unless I stop to analyze things. When I notice, I let go and fly again. Until I reach "the end" in novel land, that's all I can report.

[cooeedownunder]

I think I understand what you're saying. We're supposed to:

1) Get our BIC anyway
2) Listen to our characters
3) Open our minds up to any possibilities
4) Write anyway

Maybe I'm too much of a control freak. I'm going to give this a try. Thank you.

c.e.

I think of it this way, allow yourself to write crap, and very often after a line or two of crap, or maybe a page of crap, the story wanting to be told often magically appears out of defiance.

[FOTSGreg]

In the book I'm currently working through the final draft of I originally wrote it in a varied chronological sequences, essentially as the scenes came to me. The book didn;t really start to get good until an editor associate said "I don't see why this couldn;t be in chronological order".

I rearranged the chapters, filled in some plotholes, and now the book actually reads like a book instead of a loosely connected series of scenes.

I had originally tried using a Present-Past-Present-Past chronology where the Past gradually caught up with the Present. This resulted in way too many plotholes and discrepancies in sequencing.

[smsarber]

In the book I'm currently working through the final draft of I originally wrote it in a varied chronological sequences, essentially as the scenes came to me. The book didn;t really start to get good until an editor associate said "I don't see why this couldn;t be in chronological order".

I rearranged the chapters, filled in some plotholes, and now the book actually reads like a book instead of a loosely connected series of scenes.

I had originally tried using a Present-Past-Present-Past chronology where the Past gradually caught up with the Present. This resulted in way too many plotholes and discrepancies in sequencing.

Sounds confusing as hell to write!

[General Tso]

Uncle Jim,
What is your opinion on
1) present tense
2) tense shifts

Do you ever use present tense, aside from a synopsis? I have read a post or two in the past where you looked unfavorably upon a sudden shift in tense. Your point seemed to be the shift itself, rather than the tense being present, if you know what I mean.

For quite some time I have thought about taking your advice about writing a synopsis (as if you were describing a movie to a friend), and applying it to the prose (write it as if you were watching the characters act in the present, like a script). I have always thought it would bring the reader closer in to the action.

Part of the reason I ask these questions now is that I recently finished Cormac McCarthy's The Road. I loved it, so I picked up Blood Meridian. Almost immediately, I noticed the tense shifting back and forth from past to present.

I was intrigued so I did a little research on McCarthy. Some people hate the shifts, calling them jarring. In my opinion, they are at the very least on purpose, which is contrary to the seemingly accidental/sloppy shifts that you criticized in the past. Furthermore, other people seem to feel that the shift to present allows the reader to zoom in on the characters, or the moment, which is similar to what I was hoping to achieve.

I'm guessing you've read McCarthy. What do you think? Too much for a first novel? I certainly don't want to shift back and forth as much as he does. No flip flopping. Just "zooming in" on one or two critical scenes.

[euclid]

I had originally tried using a Present-Past-Present-Past chronology where the Past gradually caught up with the Present. This resulted in way too many plotholes and discrepancies in sequencing.

You should apply for a job writing the TV series "LOST" :)

[euclid]

I think I said this before somewhere - hopefully not in this thread.

In my WIP1 I use present tense for flashbacks (2 of 'em in total) which works really well. The flashbacks are scenes set in Africa.

I've just finished reading Perfume by Patrick Suskind. He has one short scene (in the whole book) written in the present tense, when the MC is born. The whole scene takes up one half of one page (page 6). I believe the scene would have been just as effective, and not so jarring, in the past tense.

But what would I know? An absolutely wonderful book, btw

[James D. Macdonald]

Present tense is getting more common than it used to be (styles change). Some small parts of Land of Mist and Snow are in present tense. But none of our longer works are fully in present tense.

This isn't because I don't like present tense (there's nothing wrong with it if it's the best tense for telling your story--All Quiet on the Western Front comes instantly to mind), it's just that so far I haven't. Past tense for storytelling is merely a literary convention.

If you're using two different tenses, the trick is to do the transitions well. (Isn't that the trick in all of writing? To do what you're doing well?) Don't confuse the reader.

Should you try in a first novel? Why not? If it doesn't work, fix it. No one sees your first drafts but you.

[smsarber]

UJ, what are your thoughts on how to write dollar amounts? Example from A Birthday Suicide:


At three-hundred seventy-five a pop my profit would be eight-seventy-five. A quarter of that to Danny for his help would leave me with six-hundred fifty-five. More than my mother cleared in a week.

Is that too clunky? Should I write it in numbers, with dollar signs?

[Perle_Rare]

UJ, what are your thoughts on how to write dollar amounts? Example from A Birthday Suicide:


At three-hundred seventy-five a pop my profit would be eight-seventy-five. A quarter of that to Danny for his help would leave me with six-hundred fifty-five. More than my mother cleared in a week.


Is that too clunky? Should I write it in numbers, with dollar signs?


Just a thought: Do the numbers really matter in the story?

Even after paying Danny for his help, I'll have earned more than my mother ever cleared in a week turning tricks.

I'm a math freak: You give me numbers in a story and I immediately feel the compulsion to do the math to make sure the numbers add up. I also assume I'm supposed to keep those numbers on file because, since you mentioned them, they're guaranteed to become significant at some later point in the story. Most of the time, however, I'm massively disappointed in that regard because the numbers turn out not to be of any importance.

Just my 2 cubic centimeters' worth.

[smsarber]

Important, yes, cardboard, no... or is that fiber?

Yeah, they're important numbers. He's just getting started as a coke dealer, and learning the breakdown and pricing and all that happy horsesh*t. But if Mom was turning tricks, I'd hope she was making more than $655 a week, lol.

[FOTSGreg]

smbarber, It wasn't that confusing or hard to write. i had a basic outline of the chapter sequence I wanted to use, and wrote as the scenes came to me then stitched them in where I thought they belonged.

The confusing part was when I reordered the chapters and started trying to fill in the plotholes. I had to go back in a couple of times and renumber all the chapters after a certain point and renumber the chapters then fill in a couple chapters which meant that all the succeeding chapters had to be renumbered again. This had to be done several times.

euclid, From your lips to God's ears.

[James D. Macdonald]

Usually, numbers from one through ninety-nine are written as words; numbers 100 and over are written as digits.

But if Mom was turning tricks, I'd hope she was making more than $655 a week, lol.

So this young lady goes to the bank with $655 in quarters and asks to open an account.

"Goodness," says the teller, "Did you hoard all of these quarters?"

"Oh, no, m'am," says the young lady. "My sister whored half of 'em."

[pookel]

Usually, numbers from one through ninety-nine are written as words; numbers 100 and over are written as digits.

Is this sort of formatting thing something agents and/or editors will care about when they look at submissions? I'm an AP-style-trained journalist and I've been unable to break the habit of writing numerals for anything 10 and up. I figure it's better to be consistent than to try to remember and go back and forth.

[James D. Macdonald]

As long as you're consistent, the publisher will regularize 'em to house style somewhere in the copyediting stage.

[smsarber]

So this young lady goes to the bank with $655 in quarters and asks to open an account.

"Goodness," says the teller, "Did you hoard all of these quarters?"

"Oh, no, m'am," says the young lady. "My sister whored half of 'em."

:roll:... oh, jeez!

[Blue Sky]

And I was just thinking about how I liked the word "plothole," a literary pothole. Now this. Ha!

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, Speaking of numbers - how about a coordinate system, ie 415x405/20?

I've been typing it that way because having someone say 415 by 405 slash twenty just seems awkward and looks stupid.

How about longitude and latitude or GPS coordinates, ie 14'23" S 134'45" W?

[EFCollins]

Greg, that may look a bit confusing to a lot of readers. Generally x'x" means feet and inches. There is no one 14'23", fourteen feet twenty-three inches, tall. At least, for American readers, feet and inches are written that way and we are taught in grade school to read it that way. Unless all of your readers are ship captains or aviators or non-American, then there's bound to be some confusion.

[smsarber]

I don't see where there would be any confusion. 14'23" S 134'45" W doesn't look like anything but coordinates. If nothing else, the "S" (south) and "W" (west) give that away.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'd give Lat and Long (and grid coordinates) in digits. (And expect most people to skip 'em and say "Oh, there's a number there.")

[Duncan J Macdonald]

I don't see where there would be any confusion. 14'23" S 134'45" W doesn't look like anything but coordinates. If nothing else, the "S" (south) and "W" (west) give that away.
It's like guns. You'll always find a reader who knows enough to figure out where your mistakes are.

Take the coordinates above -- yes, the "S" and "W" give it away, but the numbers themselves don't make sense. Lat and Long are written in degrees, minutes, and seconds of arc. What's written here are just the minutes and seconds part -- and just like time, there are only sixty minutes in a degree, so the West coordinate doesn't make sense - you can't have 134 minutes of arc.

So, to me, this passage would tell me that the author either didn't know what he was saying, or that he was just guessing.

Full Disclosure -- One of my tours of duty in the Navy was as the Navigator on a Fast Frigate (FF), and later I spent a three year tour teaching navigation and piloting.

[James D. Macdonald]

One of my tours of duty was as Navigator on an FF as well.

More and more these days you see lat and long listed with minutes of arc, and, rather than seconds, decimal minutes. Thus: 20o 12.85' N 74o 44.36' W.

[maestrowork]

Also phone numbers. It's silly to write "five five five one eight two five."

Currency. If it's less than $100, I write it out. If not, numbers.

And any numbers that have more meaning as numbers than as texts: dates, secret codes, coordinates, social security numbers, etc.

Addresses are kind of weird. Again, if it is larger than 100, I'd probably just write the number.

[smsarber]

Maybe until it gets to an even million, or an even hundred thousand? One million seems easier on the eyes than 1,000,000. But writing 134,000 is easier than writing it in words. I guess I should be glad my MC isn't a millionaire.;)

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

How do we emphasize a word or phrase in fiction?

Is it:

What do you want to do? (Bold)
What do you want to do? (Italicize)
What do you want to do? (Let the reader read it how they want to read it.)

[Neversage]

I tend to write out numbers as words exclusively in dialog.

[James D. Macdonald]

I italicize (and italics are indicated with a single underline, thus).

Use this sparingly. It verges on giving stage directions. If you've written your characters well the readers will know how they'll deliver a line of dialog.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim. :Hug2:

[smsarber]

Do all agents/publishers still want you to underline italics? I read in a couple different books that is not a standard practice anymore, and up to said agent/publisher. But if I'd be better served to go back and change any italics I will. And I would hate to look like an idiot asking which way they like their italics-- sunny side up, or over easy;)

[FOTSGreg]

Duncan, Sorry about the coordinate mistakes. I was pulling numbers out of my nether regions just to illustrate the question. In the real work I'd be much more careful about using actual longitude and latitude coordinates.

The grid coordinates are accurate though, coming as they do from an actual grid coordinate system for a network in my universe.

[James D. Macdonald]

Underlining is never wrong unless the guidelines of the place you're submitting the work to specifically say otherwise.

[Berry]

As long as you're consistent, the publisher will regularize 'em to house style somewhere in the copyediting stage.


And further, if you've written a brilliant, gripping story with compelling characters and a clever plot that everyone wants to read, whether you've formatted your numbers correctly WILL NOT MATTER.

If your story is dull, your plot hackneyed and your characters cardboard, absolutely perfect formatting WILL NOT SAVE IT.

[cooeedownunder]

Underlining is never wrong unless the guidelines of the place you're submitting the work to specifically say otherwise.

I've never understood why you would underline in fiction?

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

One more question. Is it:

To comfort the ache
To help you comfort from the ache.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've never understood why you would underline in fiction?

You would underline in fiction if you intended some word or words to be set in italic.

Uncle Jim,

One more question. Is it:

To comfort the ache
To help you comfort from the ache.

Neither?

I have no idea what you're trying to get across. More context?

[Rushie]

It's like guns. You'll always find a reader who knows enough to figure out where your mistakes are.


Oh guns are my pet peeve. If you're going to use guns in your fiction, you better become a gun nut yourself, or you will step in it. Buy guns, go to the range and shoot guns, talk to other people about guns, make sure you learn the right language. Nothing annoys me more than seeing the wrong gun terminology in a novel. It's not a "clip", it's a magazine. You don't load "bullets" into it, you load rounds. The only time you're going to have a handful of "bullets" is if you reload your own cartridges. And on and on and on...

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, and here's agent Jessica Faust (http://www.bookends-inc.com/about_us.html) on whether you should write short stories or keep a blog as part of your effort build a platform to sell your novel: http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2009/04/building-platform-for-fiction.html


I’ve received a lot of questions about the importance of building a platform for fiction writers. Should you write platform-building pieces under your real name or the pseudonym you want to use? What if you wrote mystery short stories, but now want to write romance novels? Do those short stories even count toward your platform? Do you need to worry about blogging now to build a platform or should you just write?

Bet you'll never guess what she recommends.

[smsarber]

Before I even read it I am going out on a limb to say I bet she recomends that it is very helpful to your platform.

Now off to read it.

I was pretty close to right. The blog may not help, but if you are discretionary about what you post in the blog I would say it couldn't hurt.

[Calliopenjo]

Sorry about that. The more I think about it the more puzzling it becomes. That's why I'm asking for help. In an attempt to write "To help with the pain" another way so that I'm not repeating the same line ten times over, I'm trying to reconstruct it so that it reads the same way with different words. I looked in the thesaurus and came up with comfort for help and agony for pain.

This is the line I came up with: I will give you a tea to drink first to comfort the agony.

Or would it be: I will give you a tea to drink first to comfort away the feeling of agony.

[cooeedownunder]

Call me stupid, but why not just italics?

[Berry]

This is the line I came up with: I will give you a tea to drink first to comfort the agony.

Or would it be: I will give you a tea to drink first to comfort away the feeling of agony.


Hm. I'd say neither. "Comfort" is, I think, a transitive verb whose object is a person. So I'd comfort Calliopenjo by easing the pain, or something similar.

There, "ease the pain" is perfectly good.

That said, what's going on that a character has to say "it will help with the pain" ten times? *THAT* sounds like it may need attention, unless they're working in an ER or field hospital treating casualties.

[Berry]

Call me stupid, but why not just italics?

It's "Standard Manuscript Format". It was developed back when we all used typewriters and there WERE no italics. It's what editors expect to see from professionals. If you do it that way, the editors who are making the snap decision whether to read your second page or not will at least not stop reading because the manuscript format is something weird.

Call it a convention of the industry.

That said, when the book is printed the text that is underlined in your MS will be in italics in the book.

And as always, check the submission requirements. If they say 24 pt Comic sans in red ink on green 4x6 paper, do it that way. Otherwise use one of the many excellent guides to standard ms format you can find in 20 seconds with Google.

[Berry]

Oh, and cooeedownunder, I just noticed your book, Australian Flavour, is non-fiction. We're talking about fiction manuscripts here. Non-fiction can be way different. For my non-fiction technical books I submitted near-camera-ready formatted FrameMaker files using templates the publisher supplied.

[James D. Macdonald]

Also, the fellows who are typesetting your book know that underlines are set in italics. If you don't underline the italics the copyeditor will have to underline them by hand before the book goes to typesetting. It's easy to miss italics in a manuscript. It's hard to miss underlines.

========

How about "this will make you feel better"?

[Perle_Rare]

Oh, and here's agent Jessica Faust (http://www.bookends-inc.com/about_us.html) on whether you should write short stories or keep a blog as part of your effort build a platform to sell your novel: http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2009/04/building-platform-for-fiction.html



Bet you'll never guess what she recommends.

Uncle Jim,

How did you know I was working up the courage to ask exactly that? I was considering starting a blog but I was afraid I wouldn't be providing anything but the occasional trite content and that's definitely not what I want to do. All this to say this advice is timely. Thank you!

P.S. I looked up Viable Paradise since I saw it in your signature. I'd so love to go!!! But it's not going to happen. Ever. So, while you're there, can you spare a thought for all of us who are dying to go to something like that but can't make it?

[James D. Macdonald]

Let me paraphrase a line from one of my favorite movies (All That Jazz):

Listen. I can't make you a great writer. I don't even know if I can make you a good writer. But, if you keep trying and don't quit, I know I can make you a better writer.

[allenparker]

Let me paraphrase a line from one of my favorite movies (All That Jazz):

Listen. I can't make you a great writer. I don't even know if I can make you a good writer. But, if you keep trying and don't quit, I know I can make you a better writer.

Isn't that what we are after?

[smsarber]

I agree with what Miss Faust says in that post. Keep writing and writing and writing. I know that with every story I write I improve. I'm positive that as I'm doing the short stories it's helping my novel work. They are two different animals, but of the same species. And in the short stories I am beginning to show things better--that transfers over to the longer writing as well. Nobody said this would be easy.

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, what's the protocol on abbreviations? Specifically, in dialogue. My character is talking about some of his childhood, and the line is: "DFS put us in a group home." I can't see him saying "Division of Family Services...," so is this acceptable? Everybody should know what DFS is anyway, right?

[euclid]

Uncle Jim, what's the protocol on abbreviations? Specifically, in dialogue. My character is talking about some of his childhood, and the line is: "DFS put us in a group home." I can't see him saying "Division of Family Services...," so is this acceptable? Everybody should know what DFS is anyway, right?

Wrong. Not over here in Europe we don't. There was another one came up some time ago that "everyone knows" but I didn't. Can't remember it now, some branch of the security service with an F in for Firearms.

How about "The feds put us in..." or "The government put us in..." or maybe "Family Services put us in..." or "Those bastards put us in..."?

[motormind]

"Everything's gotta have rules, rules, rules." -- Calvin.

After having read a sizable portion of this thread, I can't believe the stunning amount of rules a novel should adhere to. I am truly, honestly convinced that all you need to be able to write a good novel is talent and lots of practice. But especially talent. Reading lots of works by other authors is important too, but not to the point where you want to mimic them.

I am convinced that people who think they need all these rules, tips and bits of advice should forget about writing altogether. Or they should just get on with it and allow themselves to write some pretty awful novels before they get to the the good ones. If they have talent, it will work out. If they don't--well, there's always gardening. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Bufty]

And where in this thread does it say one has to follow rules and rules and rules and mimic other writers?

Any idiot can put thousands of words on paper.

The craft of writing is putting these words down in such a way that readers want to read the next sentence and the next and the next. Achieve that effect in your readers and your novel will sell.

There are guidelines and/or established techniques to achieve and convey specific effects and emotions in one's writing and one ignores these at one's peril.

"Everything's gotta have rules, rules, rules." -- Calvin.

After having read a sizable portion of this thread, I can't believe the stunning amount of rules a novel should adhere to. I am truly, honestly convinced that all you need to be able to write a good novel is talent and lots of practice. But especially talent. Reading lots of works by other authors is important too, but not to the point where you want to mimic them.

I am convinced that people who think they need all these rules, tips and bits of advice should forget about writing altogether. Or they should just get on with it and allow themselves to write some pretty awful novels before they get to the the good ones. If they have talent, it will work out. If they don't--well, there's always gardening. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[James D. Macdonald]

Rules? In a knife fight? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y87EaadjqM)

There is only one rule: If it works, it's right.

[Ken Schneider]

Every writer mimics other writers, bar none.

The rules of writing have to do with the English language. If you know them, you can break them with confidence.

Make your readers care about what happenes to your characters and they won't care about all the rules you're breaking.

Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

Wrong. Not over here in Europe we don't. There was another one came up some time ago that "everyone knows" but I didn't. Can't remember it now, some branch of the security service with an F in for Firearms.


You're probably thinking of BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms). I recall one story where sugar was regulated and it was the BATC: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Confections.

Think of your audience. Not every book is meant for every person on the planet.

Often context will take care of the problem. Other times you might want to define the term in dialog the first time it shows up. You can do this: Literary dialog is a convention of art, not a natural depiction of actual human speech. (If it were natural speech, um, like I was saying, you know, looks like it's raining out.)

[euclid]

Think of your audience. Not every book is meant for every person on the planet.


Good point, and yes ATF was the one. I've seen American TV shows where the premises are raided by guys dressed in blue with ATF in big letters on the backs of their bullet-proof vests. It looked to us like FBI painted on there by someone with dyslexia.

Sugar is pretty addictive. That probably should be Alcohol Tobacco and Chocolate.

[James D. Macdonald]

BATC: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Chocolate! Open up!

Crook: You can't touch me, copper! Ain't nothing here but lemon drops! Ha ha ha ha ha!

[Perle_Rare]

*sigh* I'm not familiar with any of the acronyms mentioned above except for FBI. I also missed the reference to NINA (or NENA as it was presented) from a couple of weeks ago. Might be because I live in Canada but most of the books, TV shows, music, etc. we are exposed to are American so it's not as if we're in some remote location.

I recommend never using acronyms without defining them because somewhere, someone won't know what you're referring to. Do not assume general knowledge. I do like Euclid's suggestion of removing the acronym and just referring to the group as "the government" or "Family Services", etc.

[James D. Macdonald]

Don't confuse your readers.

[euclid]

I've been reading Flannery O'Connor again. Man! She was some writer. I love the way she wrote what she wanted to write, and not to satisfy some perceived market.

Yesterday I started writing what I want to write. I wrote 2,200 (fantastic) words with just a barely outlined plan. I don't know yet whether I'm writing a long or a short piece, just letting the words, characters, situations flow.

I told my significant other what I was doing. She said, "I wish you wouldn't." She refused to elaborate. I think there may be a divorce looming!

[Chris Huff]

Rules? In a knife fight? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y87EaadjqM)

There is only one rule: If it works, it's right.

Not to disagree with the man whose name is on the thread, but...

If it's entertaining it's right.

Don't confuse your readers.

Which is why I can't stand James Joyce.

Joyce is like quantum physics. "If you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics."

[euclid]

Or as some wag said:

"Anyone who understands the unrest in Northern Ireland (1969 onwards) is misinformed."

Joyce is not difficult to understand if you know his environment (ie Dublin). How could you not stand an author who wrote this (From Portrait of an Artists as a Young Man):

"A girl stood before him in midstream, alone and still, gazing out to sea. She seemed like one whom magic had changed into the likeness of a strange and beautiful seabird. Her long slender bare legs were delicate as a crane's and pure save where an emerald trail of seaweed had fashioned itself as a sign upon the flesh. Her thighs, fuller and softhued as ivory, were bared almost to the hips where the white fringes of her drawers were like a feathering of soft white down. Her slateblue skirts were kilted boldly about her waist and dovetailed behind her. Her bosom was as a bird's, soft and slight, slight and soft as the breast of some darkplumed dove. But her long fair hair was girlish, girlish, and touched with the wonder of mortal beauty, her face.

She was alone and still, gazing out to sea; and when she felt his presence and the worship of his eyes her eyes turned to him in quiet sufferance of his gaze, without shame or wantonness. Long, long she suffered his gaze and then quietly withdrew her eyes from his and bent them towards the stream, gently stirring the water with her foot hither and thither. The first faint noise of gently moving water broke the silence, low and faint and whispering, faint as the bells of sleep; hither and thither, hither and tither; and a faint flame trembled on her cheek.

--Heavenly God! cried Stephen's soul, in an outburst of profane joy.

He turned away from her suddenly and set off across the strand. His cheeks were aflame, his body was aglow; his limbs were trembling. On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him."

[maestrowork]

To me, there's a difference between confusing someone and making them think. I think great literature makes us think and question stuff. Sometimes you do want your readers to work for it, instead of spoon-feeding every piece of information, or explaining everything to them. Subtexts are wonderful -- and if they don't get it, they don't. Symbolism, parallels, mirrors, foreshadows, etc. are all part of that. In mysteries, there are always clues for those who are smart enough to crack the case before the detective does.

But "confusing" is another matter -- that would mean inconsistencies, breaking rules, implausibilities, withholding pertinent information, coyness, etc. Those things would infuriate the readers. It's better if the readers are confused because THEY missed something -- it's there all along; you just didn't see it! But to have something actually misleading or inconsistent, that's the bad kind of confusing.

[SarahMacManus]

Let me paraphrase a line from one of my favorite movies (All That Jazz):

Listen. I can't make you a great writer. I don't even know if I can make you a good writer. But, if you keep trying and don't quit, I know I can make you a better writer.

Uncle Jim,
I'm facing a structure conundrum for an epic fantasy I'm working on, the details of which I've posted in the Sandbox, here:http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138868

I'd very much appreciate your guidance/advice on the issue, as you work (successfully) in this genre.

Do you have a moment to offer some advice?

Thanks in advance.

[smsarber]

In my novel, the character in question is a former gang-member, and now heads a crime syndicate. In the situation, I can't think of him saying Family Services, etc... Maybe it because it's how people I was in prison with and around here talk-- "DFS" is natural here. I could change it without hurting anything, though.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Steven,

One way to work around that dilemma, is that the character says DFS then maybe a sub character, a cop, girlfriend, something asking what DFS means then having that character what he/she is talking about.

Example:

"Yeah. DFS put me there."

"DFS. Who in the universe is DFS? Donuts fudge and soda?"

"DFS stands for Department of Family Services you dope. Do you always have to think about food?"

Something like that would help.

Keep in mind that different places have different names for the same thing. You say Department of Family Services I say Child Protective Services. I live on the west coast and was a preschool for seven years. There wasn't a day that I didn't hear DFS or CPS. I could tell what part of the US they came from if they said DFS. As DFS is most likely on the midwest to east coast.

[euclid]

More subtle would be where another character says "Yeah, another victory for Family Services." or something like that.

[Chris Huff]

Or as some wag said:

"Anyone who understands the unrest in Northern Ireland (1969 onwards) is misinformed."

Joyce is not difficult to understand if you know his environment (ie Dublin). How could you not stand an author who wrote this (From Portrait of an Artists as a Young Man):

Yes. My fault, I should have been specific. Finnegan's Wake is the novel I was referring to.

And I second your suggestion for a more subtle interjection of the meaning of the acronym.

[PlanetCaravan]

Uncle Jim, what's the protocol on abbreviations? Specifically, in dialogue. My character is talking about some of his childhood, and the line is: "DFS put us in a group home." I can't see him saying "Division of Family Services...," so is this acceptable? Everybody should know what DFS is anyway, right?

Personally (and I know I don't have much cred on the board) I think the line is fine as is. I didn't know what DFS was when I read it but it sounded like some government something or other --and because this DFS puts our character into a group home it sounds pretty much like social services. Good enough for me. Keep the story moving.

If you had to, you could explain it:
"DFS put us in a group home." DFS, the Division of Family Services. Jennifer always thought of it as...