Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[euclid]

I wonder:

How many active AW members there are.
How much this number has grown recently.
What's the average time since join date.
What's the average no of posts.
How many AWers have joined as aspiring authors and gone on to success.
How many have participated in this thread.
How many of those have gone on to publishing success.
How many AWers are published authors.
The geographical distribution of AWers.
How many don't have English as their native language.
A breakdown by genre would be nice.
And lots more questions which I suppose will never be answered.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

First of all, I enjoyed the poem. Without analyzing the structure it tells a good story. I read through to the end where the author explained his intent when he wrote it. I read it just before getting ready to go to bed so I had the poem and Holmes' explanation still lingering up there as I brushed my teeth. It was nice.

Stupid question time. Is there such a thing as a soft smooth voice in describing a someone in a story. Ex: "Hi honey." She said in a soft smooth voice. "Could I come in please?"

I ask because I've read stories that voice qualities are used in describing someone. So I'm thinking this is normal.

Opinion?

[smsarber]

Some of that can be found by scrolling down to the bottom of the home page. It has # of posts, current active users online, most ever online at once, plus birthdays. More info can surely be found out by PM-ing MacAllister (Runs the Joint), or some of the Mod Squad. Or just make up statistics like I do;)

[smsarber]

"Smooth soft voice" would describe the quality of her voice, and that could possibly give us insight into her as a person, depending on the situation. But in my opinion it just describes her voice.

[James D. Macdonald]

I ask because I've read stories that voice qualities are used in describing someone. So I'm thinking this is normal.

Opinion?

I'd decide if the more important quality of the voice is smooth, or if the more important quality is soft, and use just one adjective.

[motormind]

"Smooth soft voice" would describe the quality of her voice, and that could possibly give us insight into her as a person, depending on the situation. But in my opinion it just describes her voice.

Somebody can have a smooth voice, but talks softly.

[James D. Macdonald]

Nevertheless, stacking up multiple adjectives on the same noun is poor form.

[Judg]

I used to not only pile up adjectives, but they would be synonyms. Talk about redundant. It was a hard habit to break.

[Neversage]

I, too was very guilty of this. I was somehow laboring under the delusion that it was better to have more description for each thing, so I would use two adjectives for every noun.

Today, I use them one at a time, or none if there's no need. If I really feel a need to get two in there, I'll use one the first time, and another the second time, or find another way to convey that quality (show vs tell).

[James D. Macdonald]

Of course, if it's necessary to use two or more adjectives on a noun to achieve the effect you need, do so.

The overriding rule is (all together now!) If it works, it's right.

[Eric San Juan]

Absolutely. Sometimes stacked adjectives in a certain passage will complement the rhythm of your sentences. Most of the time, no, avoid, but if it's what's needed ...

The trick isn't knowing the rules, it's knowing the rules and when to break them.

[Judg]

Like all seasonings, adjectives are wonderful if not overdone. I was definitely overdoing them.

[Calliopenjo]

We need a venting forum. A please to yell and scream without meaning anything which has nothing to do with the following.

Anyway, thanks guys for your opinions. The old descriptions was getting just that. . . Old. So in trying to achieve the same thing I thought I'd try the soft smooth voice description. I try not to treat my audience like idiots, but I always think there's one person out there that will ask "Well, how did she say that? How could she ask that? You didn't describe the voice. How was I supposed to know?" Yadda yadda yadda. And that's the only comment you get. The sort of reader that you feel needs a detailed map or the declaration on the front cover: Use your imagination.

[smsarber]

"There are no laws for the novel. There never have been, nor can there ever be."--Doris Lessing

[smsarber]

Somebody can have a smooth voice, but talks softly.
Soft doesn't have to describe the volume.

[Blue Sky]

How about showing the character in a scene which highlights her soft-spoken way? We've all known soft-spoken people, so we-the-readers will fill in the blanks with our experience of such.

I love how dialog brings life to writing. I first experimented with using "said" exclusively and cutting away all adverbs after reading "Lessons From a Lifetime of Writing," by David Morrell. It wasn't easy. I too was hooked on adverbs.

What a revelation! My dialog popped as attention focused on the actual speech--there wasn't much else to look at.

Also, character actions join dialog while conveying the adverbial flavor.

Btw: There are other places on absolutewrite where one can vent.

[Ken Schneider]

How about showing the character in a scene which highlights her soft-spoken way? We've all known soft-spoken people, so we-the-readers will fill in the blanks with our experience of such.

I love how dialog brings life to writing. I first experimented with using "said" exclusively and cutting away all adverbs after reading "Lessons From a Lifetime of Writing," by David Morrell. It wasn't easy. I too was hooked on adverbs.

What a revelation! My dialog popped as attention focused on the actual speech--there wasn't much else to look at.

Also, character actions join dialog while conveying the adverbial flavor.

Btw: There are other places on absolutewrite where one can vent.


I use said, and that's about it. And, damned few of those if I can keep the character distinguished from each other.
Too many, He scoffed, grated, blurted out, is amaturish IMO.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Blue Sky. I tend to use Uncle Jim's a lot and it feels like home here. But. . . I know there's a grammar discussion, beta search, information search, SYW, Non-Paying markets discussion, I haven't found the venting discussion yet. Now that you told me about it though I shall hunt for it. (Tah dahdahdah dahdah! Charge!) Picture white knight holding sword here.

The both of you reminded me of something I should have known. Show it in dialog. I just have to find a way of working around the fact that she's talking to the MC through a crack in the door.

Have a good weekend! Crawling back into corner now.

[James D. Macdonald]

She put her lips next to the crack in the door. "My mascara is starting to run," she said.

[smsarber]

Just a guess, Calli, but try "Office Party," I think that's where the "Take it Outside" thread is.

[Blue Sky]

smsarber: Thanks. Yes, I'm sure I saw it in Office Party a few days ago, but I didn't investigate.

I add my congratulations to your "dryness." One friend of mine in particular stuck to the same decision. Eleven years later, his life has blossomed beyond anything he expected before.

[Blue Sky]

Calliopenjo: Ken and I may have caught your attention, but Jim showed you with an example. I can feel her close to the door, as when I've spoken like that.

When I write dialog, I pay attention to how my body feels, thoughts that stir. Then I know I'm sharing honestly, like Stephen King says in his book. If I feel nothing, I know to revise or--

[Phil's hands move to sword hilt.]

PHIL

Aai!

[Blur flashes through prose.]

[Pleonasms tumble into digital oblivion.]

[Phil wipes katana and returns it to sheath.]

I know to cut.

Happy sword sharpening in your cozy corner.

[smsarber]

Thanks!!

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, folks, it's time to play First Page again.

Here's the first page from a published novel. The question is: Do you turn the page?


Milburn Observed Through Notalgia

One day early in October Frederick Hawthorne, a seventy-year-old lawyer who had lost very little to the years, left his house on Melrose Avenue in Milburn, New York, to walk across town to his offices on Wheat Row, just beside the square. The temperature was a little colder than Milburn expected so early in its autumn, but Ricky wore his winter uniform of tweed topcoat, cashmere muffler and gray, no-nonsense hat. He walked a little briskly down Melrose Avenue to warm up his blood, moving beneath huge oaks and smaller maples already colored heart-wrenching shades of orange and red--another unseasonal touch. He was susceptible to colds, and if the temperature dropped another five degrees, he'd have to drive.


If you do turn the page, here's an assignment for you: Write the second page (250 words).

Write it in one of the following genres, maintaining this author's style:

Romance
Fantasy
Horror
Science Fiction
Mystery
Mainstream
Literary
Erotica
Memoir

Then write another second page in a different genre. That's 500 words, total. Shouldn't take more than hour, even if you only type twenty words a minute and spend ten minutes staring at the ceiling.

If you don't want to turn the page: Rent a movie you've never seen before, and watch it with sound (and subtitles) off. Write an outline of the plot. You aren't allowed to take notes while watching it.

[Aschenbach]

It's a certain P.S., the finest genre writer, living or dead, IMO.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's a certain P.S., the finest genre writer, living or dead, IMO.

So, have you done your assignment?

[Aschenbach]

So, have you done your assignment?

I suppose I can make a pitiful attempt at mimicry.

Quoting;
One day early in October Frederick Hawthorne, a seventy-year-old lawyer who had lost very little to the years, left his house on Melrose Avenue in Milburn, New York, to walk across town to his offices on Wheat Row, just beside the square. The temperature was a little colder than Milburn expected so early in its autumn, but Ricky wore his winter uniform of tweed topcoat, cashmere muffler and gray, no-nonsense hat. He walked a little briskly down Melrose Avenue to warm up his blood, moving beneath huge oaks and smaller maples already colored heart-wrenching shades of orange and red--another unseasonal touch. He was susceptible to colds, and if the temperature dropped another five degrees, he'd have to drive.

Mine;
Ricky looked both ways, then crossed the street. His respectably drab and conservative uniform merged with the pale road and the fall sky, and for moments he was quite invisible. He didn't rematerialise until gaining the opposite kerb. Against the boisterous oranges and reds of ornamental shrubs and tamed trees, Ricky's greyness reluctantly resolved into solidity. He plodded across the square to Wheat Row, as dispirited as any prisoner or refugee who skirts the perimeter and knows there is no getting beyond it.

That's terribly unfair to demand P.S. style prose at the drop of a hat, but nevertheless it's a good challenge to throw down!

[Ken Schneider]

Done.

I'd have to read more of this authors work to get a real handle on his style.

Conan Doyle took a few Homles stories to mimic a few Christmas assignments ago.

[James D. Macdonald]

Post them at SYW, if you must post.

[smsarber]

Sorry for the confusion. (Posting the second page here.) It's a heckuva difficult assignment. As Aschenbach said, P.S. style prose is not something that can be just flipped out willy-nilly, at the drop of a hat. That's the idea, though... challenge!

[euclid]

What's "mainstream"?

[euclid]

Done.

I'd have to read more of this authors work to get a real handle on his style.

Conan Doyle took a few Homles stories to mimic a few Christmas assignments ago.

I agree. That was a very short first page!

I must admit I have no idea who this author is.

A few years ago I wrote two complete short stories in Conan Doyle's style about Holmes and Watson.

I would turn the page, not because I am hooked but because there is so little to go on. I would apply the page-turning test to page 2.

[smsarber]

To my understanding, "Mainstream" (or contemporary, maybe), is something kind of "middle-of-the-road." Acceptable for any type of reader. If I personally write something to be "Mainstream" I stay away from vulgarities, brutalities, and even anything too controversial. But that's just me, and my definition may be totally off base.

[Ken Schneider]

I agree. That was a very short first page!

I must admit I have no idea who this author is.

A few years ago I wrote two complete short stories in Conan Doyle's style about Holmes and Watson.

I would turn the page, not because I am hooked but because there is so little to go on. I would apply the page-turning test to page 2.

Yes, that Mary Shelly Frankenstein story we did that Christmas was great fun. I went the, Homles-Watson-Doyle route as well.

And, even though it's only the second page of a book, and doesn't have to be loaded with info, it should start setting the tone for what kind of book it is. Hence the different genres for two different writings. I chose mystery and romance. It's not hard to throw some interesting tidbits in to set that sort of tone. And, doesn't most every story encompass more than one genre within. Though, one genre dominates the story?

I turn the page to more than page two on any book. If I'm going to commit to read a book, I'll read it.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Mainstream" is the stuff shelved in "Fiction and Literature" at the bookstore, as opposed to SF/F, Mystery, Romance, etc.

[Caramia]

Only on page 5 of this thread, so got a bit of catching up to do. Just wanted to express my gratitude to the generous and gifted gentleman for sharing the time and skill with others.

I imagine you have heard of this story, but in the event you haven't, I'd highly recommend Katherine Neville's The Eight, it is fantastic for fans of chess. I've read it seven times!

Rachel

[motormind]

That's a short first page. And no, I wouldn't turn the page, since it bores me already.

[euclid]

It's strange how many US authors have never made significant inroads in UK/Europe. There must be thousands! Also, the other way around. I would have thought a clever marketing guru could make money promoting books on either side of the pond.

I ordered a book by a US writer from Amazon, but never received it. When I chased it I was told they (the book seller) were having problems sourcing the book.

[smsarber]

That's depressing.

[Blue Sky]

So, have you done your assignment?

Yes! Although my lapsing into unconsciousness after working all night forced me to wait until this afternoon.

First I chose erotica, but the story turned mainstream. Second I chose mystery, and it feels like a potential mystery-thriller. Erotica and mystery are genres I've not explored much, thus my choices.

This author's prose has a lingering, hypnotic quality about it.

[smsarber]

This author did not begin in the genre our particular assignment is in. His first book was a mainstream book (title withheld to wait for Uncle Jim to give the title of our first page excerpt) published in 1973. (Our assignment book was pubbed in 1979.) He lived in England and Ireland with his wife for ten years previous to 1975, though he is American, and wrote an English ghost story in '75. I've only become interested in his writing for about five years, and not read many of his books yet, but always liked what I read.

[SarahMacManus]

That's a short first page. And no, I wouldn't turn the page, since it bores me already.

Same here. Going to watch a movie...

[James D. Macdonald]

Milburn Observed Through Nostalgia

One day early in October Frederick Hawthorne, a seventy-year-old lawyer who had lost very little to the years, left his house on Melrose Avenue in Milburn, New York, to walk across town to his offices on Wheat Row, just beside the square. The temperature was a little colder than Milburn expected so early in its autumn, but Ricky wore his winter uniform of tweed topcoat, cashmere muffler and gray, no-nonsense hat. He walked a little briskly down Melrose Avenue to warm up his blood, moving beneath huge oaks and smaller maples already colored heart-wrenching shades of orange and red--another unseasonal touch. He was susceptible to colds, and if the temperature dropped another five degrees, he'd have to drive.

As many have noted, this is the first page of Ghost Story by Peter Straub.


Milburn Observed Through Nostalgia

Chapter title. Placename and an emotion: the longing for things of the past, often in idealized form. Observed rather than seen or viewed, therefore more active participation by the person who is doing the observation.

One day early in October Frederick Hawthorne, a seventy-year-old lawyer who had lost very little to the years, left his house on Melrose Avenue in Milburn, New York, to walk across town to his offices on Wheat Row, just beside the square.

Quite a long sentence to lead off. A classic opening (much like Pawn to King Four), with a person in a place. The first words are very close to the also-classic "once upon a time." The person is in motion, walking. His age is emphasized, as is his profession. This should be the protagonist. The impression is that this is a small town, since an elderly man can walk across it.

The temperature was a little colder than Milburn expected so early in its autumn, but Ricky wore his winter uniform of tweed topcoat, cashmere muffler and gray, no-nonsense hat.

"Ricky" is a bit informal for a 70-year-old lawyer. We've had his age emphasized in the first sentence. Now we get "autumn" and "colder" and "winter." That looks a lot like foreshadowing. We learn more about the character in the description of his clothing (so far we know nothing about his personal appearance--the readers will have to fill in what they think an older lawyer looks like.) He seems prosperous.

He walked a little briskly down Melrose Avenue to warm up his blood, moving beneath huge oaks and smaller maples already colored heart-wrenching shades of orange and red--another unseasonal touch.

Warming his blood. Leaves changing colors. This is emphasizing the age-and-decay and end-of-life motif. Oaks are traditionally solid, and are notably long-lived. The word-group "heart-wrenching" is an odd choice.

He was susceptible to colds, and if the temperature dropped another five degrees, he'd have to drive.

So he, too, has a hint of decay in him. Susceptible to colds, and needs to warm his blood. He has a car, but walks by choice.

That's it, the entire first page, the entire first paragraph. Four sentences (not counting the chapter title). What we've done is introduce a character and, without describing him, allowed the reader to create a pretty decent picture. So far no problems, other than getting to work and needing to avoid catching cold.

[Neversage]

Just saw the note about posting in SYW. My bad.

Here's a link: Click me gently. (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3577622#post3577622)

[smsarber]

Same here. Going to watch a movie...
Well, your opinion is of course your own, but I would just like to point out a fact stated by Uncle Jim: One Paragraph. Surely you could give a book more than one paragraph before you turn to a movie;) I only tease because I care;)

[James D. Macdonald]

One Paragraph. Surely you could give a book more than one paragraph before you turn to a movie

Readers in bookshops, editorial assistants with slush--one paragraph may be all you get.

Make that paragraph count. Here we have a person in a place with a (very minor) problem. The person is in motion. But that's all we have.

If the longer, more descriptive sentences aren't what you're looking for, this book may not be for you.

(Someone who has read and enjoyed a previous book by the same author will likely give more of a chance, but that's stripped out by not posting titles/authors when we play this game.)

[smsarber]

Very true! I might have found this opening dry if I hadn't read previous works like "Mystery," and "The Talisman." (The Talisman is Stephen King with Peter Straub--long, but excellent.)

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim, :hi:

Thank you for your assistance. I tell you sometimes, I need to be hit upside the head with a 2 x 4. The passage is clear and smooth now.

As for would you turn the first page? Actually I would. It was entertaining. I pictured him going through the doors of court. The doors are alive and greet him by opening without question. As he walks in, his hat waits there on the bench, smiling, knowing his master has arrived. That's how I picture the rest. I know it looks a lot Harry Potter. But I've been on the hunt for creating a "Grimm Witch" story. It hasn't been born. Yet. I'm getting there though. I hope.

[James D. Macdonald]

In other news: My novel, The Apocalypse Door (http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/partner?partner_id=34766&cgi=search/search&searchtype=isbn&searchfor=0765306085), will be reprinted in paperback this coming December.

Preorder now! Beat the rush!

[euclid]

The temperature was a little colder than Milburn expected so early in its autumn, but Ricky wore his winter uniform of tweed topcoat, cashmere muffler and gray, no-nonsense hat.

This is an odd sentence: What does he mean by "its autumn"?
Also, he refers to his winter clothes as a "uniform" which is a little odd. Suggests a man of habit (excuse the pun).

[euclid]

In other news: My novel, The Apocalypse Door (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0765306085/ref=nosim/madhousemanor/), will be reprinted in paperback this coming December.

Preorder now! Beat the rush!

Jim,

What genre is this book?
Was it written without the steadying hand of Debra Doyle?

[James D. Macdonald]

The genre is Urban Fantasy, and it was written without Dr. Doyle's assistance.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is an odd sentence: What does he mean by "its autumn"?
Also, he refers to his winter clothes as a "uniform" which is a little odd. Suggests a man of habit (excuse the pun).


It's the autumn belonging or pertaining to the town of Milburn. The author could have said "Milburn's autumn," but that might have been clunky.

And yes, Ricky does seem to be a man of reliable habit. This tends toward characterization.

[Ken Schneider]

One day early in October Frederick Hawthorne, a seventy-year-old lawyer who had lost very little to the years, left his house on Melrose Avenue in Milburn, New York, to walk across town to his offices on Wheat Row, just beside the square.

Interesting, and funny how, at least for me, more comes to light each time I see an exersize like this. This time it's,

That a discription of a person doesn't need to be spelled out if the right words are used in a sentence.

Seventy-year-old: I see gray hair from under his hat. Picture him tall and thin, in shape, becasue at his age brisk walking is a novelty for most.
Lawyer: Smart/savy, well dressed
Lost little to the years: Suggest to me he still has a sharp mind.

Quite a bit of discription if you read the words and look into your minds eye at what you see as you read. Tells me that our readers don't need as much info as we seem to think we need to feed them. IMO.

[smsarber]

its autumn refers to autumn in milburn, a decidedly american way to say it.


congrats uncle jim!!

[Judg]

its autumn refers to autumn in milburn, a decidedly american way to say it.
OK, I'm confused. What makes this an American way of saying things?

[smsarber]

Well, does it really sound like something a Brit (or an Ire;)) would say?

[James D. Macdonald]

In general: Readers need far less description and less backstory than you'd think.

[Judg]

Well, does it really sound like something a Brit (or an Ire;)) would say?
Sure, why not?

It's perfectly standard, normal, international English.

[motormind]

Readers in bookshops, editorial assistants with slush--one paragraph may be all you get.


That's disheartening in its stupidity. It's no wonder the book stores are overflowing with crap.

[James D. Macdonald]

Stories and artwork gone dreadfully, dreadfully wrong (http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/index.html).

(These are far worse than the Archie Meets the Punisher crossover....)

Sometimes you can learn more from failure than from success.

[James D. Macdonald]

That's disheartening in its stupidity. It's no wonder the book stores are overflowing with crap.

If the author is functionally illiterate, or has a written something that your house doesn't publish (or pretty much anything in Slushkiller categories 1-6 (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html)) you'll be able to tell in a paragraph--or less.

As to readers in bookstores, heaven love 'em, have you ever watched them? There are no more selfish individuals on earth than readers picking books. "What's in it for me?" is their battle cry. If you can get them to read one paragraph you're already ahead. To get them there, they have to have pulled the book off the shelf (rather than walking right by it), and they have to have glanced at the cover and not instantly put it back. They may not even open to the first paragraph. They may open to page 134. So you have to make sure that all of your paragraphs are good, not just the first one that you've workshopped to death.

[euclid]

Sure, why not?

It's perfectly standard, normal, international English.

I was going to say "no way, Judg", but I went back and re-read the sentence. I misread it first time around. I confused "Milburn" the town name with the character. I can see how a town could have "its" autumn, but not a character. I don't have the sentence in sight now, but I think it read:

"It was colder than Milburn expected its autumn to be..."

That's fair enough. I thought Milburn was the name of the lawyer. Yes, I know, I have the attention span of a goldfish.

[Judg]

If it's any consolation, I read it wrong the first time too. It takes a while before names stick in my head and I don't normally expect a town to expect something.

[euclid]

Stories and artwork gone dreadfully, dreadfully wrong (http://www.misterkitty.org/extras/stupidcovers/index.html).

(These are far worse than the Archie Meets the Punisher crossover....)

Sometimes you can learn more from failure than from success.

I thought they were quite good!

[allenparker]

The genre is Urban Fantasy, and it was written without Dr. Doyle's assistance.

This is a strong read where most of what UJ offers us as advice can be seen in action. It is also a good place to look at the way UJ's character development and his story arc play out over an extended work. It also would have made a good Turn the Page example.

[smsarber]

It still seems more proper, ie: more British, to me. But that's just me.

[smsarber]

After giving some thought to it, I realized something. I am thoroughly an idiot. I'm not taking into account the fact that just because it happens to be less standard than what I hear around here, there is nothing unusual about the sentence.

I think that most of the people around here learned English from only slang. It's sad, in a way, but it's just my area's, and more appropriately, my circle of friends' way of speech. Just remember, we were a group of alcoholics, illegal substance users (not me, I only lived to drink at the time), and high school drop-outs. I only made it through ninth grade. So when I think of speech, alot of what I'm used to hearing in person still holds out as what I think of as normal.

The group of "friends" I had are a big inspiration for A Birthday Suicide. The MC becomes a coke dealer and a hit man. The setting is based on my area, and the speech patterns standard for what I hear

Hold on... my wife thinks her water may have just broken. BYE!

[euclid]

Hold on... my wife thinks her water may have just broken. BYE!

Wow! Better get that fixed right away!

[euclid]

I noticed two AWers have won IPPY (Independent Publishers) awards, Maestrowork being one of them.

What are Independent Publishers? Is this self-publishing? Or POD?

[Blue Sky]

smsarber: Nice catch noticing the expectation in your observation. Guess you're not an idiot. :)

A person's viewpoint is that person's trump card. Noticing concepts projected onto others tends to activate subtle inner polishing and balancing.

[Judg]

After giving some thought to it, I realized something. I am thoroughly an idiot. I'm not taking into account the fact that just because it happens to be less standard than what I hear around here, there is nothing unusual about the sentence.

I think that most of the people around here learned English from only slang. It's sad, in a way, but it's just my area's, and more appropriately, my circle of friends' way of speech. Just remember, we were a group of alcoholics, illegal substance users (not me, I only lived to drink at the time), and high school drop-outs. I only made it through ninth grade. So when I think of speech, alot of what I'm used to hearing in person still holds out as what I think of as normal.

The group of "friends" I had are a big inspiration for A Birthday Suicide. The MC becomes a coke dealer and a hit man. The setting is based on my area, and the speech patterns standard for what I hear

Hold on... my wife thinks her water may have just broken. BYE!
No, you're not an idiot. Idiots never question themselves. Best solution is to read widely, to get a feel for different styles of language and thought.

Probably too late, but all the best to your wife! Looking forward to good news.

[SarahMacManus]

Readers in bookshops, editorial assistants with slush--one paragraph may be all you get.

Make that paragraph count. Here we have a person in a place with a (very minor) problem. The person is in motion. But that's all we have.

If the longer, more descriptive sentences aren't what you're looking for, this book may not be for you.

(Someone who has read and enjoyed a previous book by the same author will likely give more of a chance, but that's stripped out by not posting titles/authors when we play this game.)

It's all very subjective and Jim (as usual) is right. Sometimes you only get one paragraph.

[motormind]

So you have to make sure that all of your paragraphs are good, not just the first one that you've workshopped to death.

I rarely "workshop" paragraphs. If I don't like a paragraph or scene, I delete it and rewrite it from scratch. That usually gives faster and better results.

[Neversage]

Woo! Grats, Sarber.

Everyone,

In my revision of my novel, I've come to the realization that I need an additional, minor villain. Have any of you ever created a new one, or changed a character to be one? If so, how did you go about it? Any advice on this would be welcome.

[Scribhneoir]

I noticed two AWers have won IPPY (Independent Publishers) awards, Maestrowork being one of them.

What are Independent Publishers? Is this self-publishing? Or POD?

An independent publisher is a commercial publisher that is not owned by a larger company. Victoria blogged (http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2009/05/victoria-strauss-vanity-is-new-indie.html) about the vanity presses trying to usurp this designation just the other day.

[smsarber]

Thanks, it was a false alarm... the fluid was not amniotic. But she is already scheduled for induction tomorrow. Well, they start tomorrow, then Thursday should be delivery day.

I have to disagree on one fact-- I am an idiot--for dropping out of school. My I.Q. is around 128-138 (depending on which test I want to believe), and if I'd applied myself school would have been easy to get through. But I started drinking in ninth grade, and the rest is history. It makes some of this hard; if I'd at least paid attention in English class more I'd be able to pick up alot of this easier. At least, that's my assumption. So I struggle a good deal with stuff sometimes for months before suddenly it will "click." and I'll be like, "Damn... why didn't I get that before?"

That's why the first page game is so good. Uncle Jim shows us what some of the technical stuff that is in place we may not realize. Even something I wouldn't ever be interested enough in to pick up at the bookstore may have aspects that are astonishing when I see a workup of the first page.

[James D. Macdonald]

I've added characters to books somewhere in the between-first-and-later draft stage.

I did this once to editorial request after submission and acceptance. (Simon here (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/ad_excerpt.htm).)

This requires a ground-level full-book rewrite to smooth it all out. If the character isn't fully integrated he/she will need to be cut out again, which rather defeats the purpose.

[Neversage]

Given that, Uncle Jim, I will first look into changing an existing character before adding another.

Actually, I read the first 3 pages of Apocalypse Door earlier, and immediately went to Amazon.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

Can a large room sit at the end of the hallway? I ask because it seems odd. I hear sit, I see a dog in a sitting position at the end of the leash.

Opinions? Thoughts?

[Neversage]

Maybe the hallway could open up, or expand into the large room? Also, sit sounded fine to me when I first read it.

[smsarber]

Part of the definition of "sit" is: to occupy a position.

[Cyia]

Sit can also be short for "situated", as in a room's position off a hallway.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. It really does help. :Hug2:

[James D. Macdonald]

A room can sit at the end of a hallway. A house can sit on a hill. A dish can sit on a shelf. A couch can sit against the far wall.

[Ken Schneider]

Uncle Jim,

Can a large room sit at the end of the hallway? I ask because it seems odd. I hear sit, I see a dog in a sitting position at the end of the leash.

Opinions? Thoughts?


But, couldn't you also say.
The room at the far end of the hallway. The house on the hill. The couch against the wall. Etc.

Why use sit at all?

[MeganRebekah]

I rarely "workshop" paragraphs. If I don't like a paragraph or scene, I delete it and rewrite it from scratch. That usually gives faster and better results.

I have discovered that this same technique works best for me as well. If I try to rewrite something I get caught up in what's already there. If read through the paragraph (or scene) thoroughly and then erase it and start again usually the problems fix themselves. It's quicker and more efficient than spending an inordinate amount of time trying to pinpoint what makes the paragraph fail to begin with.

[smsarber]

But, couldn't you also say.
The room at the far end of the hallway. The house on the hill. The couch against the wall. Etc.

Why use sit at all?
It's probably the way the writer speaks. Different phrases and terms for different areas of the country/world.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

It's probably the way the writer speaks. Different phrases and terms for different areas of the country/world.

I hear and see that usage all the time, and to a lesser extent I've used it in writing and normal conversation.

[James D. Macdonald]

But, couldn't you also say.
The room at the far end of the hallway. The house on the hill. The couch against the wall. Etc.

Why use sit at all?

Because sometimes sit is the right word.

Also, consider:

"The house sat on the hill" is a complete sentence. "The house on the hill" isn't a sentence.

============

Now, in tonight's episode of Talk Like An English Major, it's Vocabulary Time!

Tonight's word is epiphora. "What's epiphora?" I can hear you ask. Epiphora is the repetition of a word or phrase at the end of two or more clauses. E.g.: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child."

Do you need to know the term? Only if the the Final Jeopardy! category is Rhetorical Devices. But even if you don't remember the fancy Greek name, epiphora is a tool for your toolbox.

[batgirl]

If the house stood on the hill, or squatted on the hill, or waited on the hill, that would be different too.
Hill House, not sane, stood by itself against its hills, holding darkness within; it had stood so for eighty years and might stand for eighty more.

-Barbara

[smsarber]

I actually knew that word. I feel special:)

[euclid]

I actually knew that word. I feel special:)

Show off. :)

You are special.

Good luck to all three of you on Thursday.

[Blue Sky]

Epiphora: Another arrow in our writers quivers! Thanks Jim. Looked familiar, but I had to look it up. Amazing how natural and powerful such repitition can feel. Do you have any fav books filled with tasty writers jargon? I saw Bill Bryson's book in a used bookstore the other day.

Btw, are you going to do any analysis of The Wonderful One-horse Shay? It's a wonder.

[euclid]

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child."

As in "When I was born I was only a baby."
Or "I was born at a very early age."

[Neversage]

Tonight's word is epiphora. "What's epiphora?" I can hear you ask. Epiphora is the repetition of a word or phrase at the end of two or more clauses. E.g.: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child."

*Lightbulb goes on* It's like a pedal tone in music. Where you have one constant note with others dancing around it.

Examples:
Daft Punk - Aerodynamic (starting at 1:02)
Iron Maiden - Paschendale (the intro)
Metallica - Master of Puppets (or most anything from that era)

Sorry if this is over the top, I was just so excited to notice the similarity : D

[Blue Sky]

Yes to the musical equivalent. It creates an easily felt pattern. Off-beat music with unfamiliar meters can leave dancers and listeners feeling lost. I happen to love off-beat, unusual meters in the West African stuff I play.

I've played slaps to the beat and had folks start grooving. However, as Jim says, we may have only a paragraph-long reader first date.

Hey! Another use for talking books. (Barf.)

[James D. Macdonald]

As in "When I was born I was only a baby."
Or "I was born at a very early age."

No, not even close. Epiphora requires repeating the exact words.

BTW, the quote was from the Bible (1 Corinthians 13:11).

-----------


Next vocabulary word: anaphora.

Anaphora is repeating words or phrases at the start of clauses.

Thus, Lincoln's "we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground" or Churchill's "...we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender...."

[euclid]

No, not even close. Epiphora requires repeating the exact words.

BTW, the quote was from the Bible (1 Corinthians 13:11).

(a) I know. I was being funny.
(b) I know. Where else would "spoke" be spelt with an "a"? (joke)

[euclid]

That Churchill speech was something else, wasn't it?

[Judg]

Ah, rhetorical devices... I had a prof enamored of them. Thanks for the review, UJ. The power of rhythm and repetition is not discussed often enough on these forums. Either that, or I'm not looking in the right places. I was using anaphora just yesterday. Immensely satisfying writing too.

I hope you're going to run us through a lot of them. Do you know any books that deal with them? The translators of the KJV were certainly very consciously aware of them; one of the reasons that it defined the standards for English literature for so many centuries. I had a very irreligious English prof who exhorted us in no uncertain terms to read it, for the language and in order to recognize allusions to Scripture in other works.

[Dev]

Uncle Jim, sorry if you've already answered this...

As you've often advised, I sent my first novel out when I thought it was ready and I got cracking on my next novel. My first one has been making the rounds for a few months, and I've got a few hopeful nibbles from agents.

Now I also find that I've got this second one (I'm in rewrite, so this is mostly hypothetical). If the second one is ready before the first is actually accepted by an agent, should I begin sending it out separately, or save it for later (and start on a third one)?


Thanks!
Dev

[Berry]

Ah, rhetorical devices...[...] Do you know any books that deal with them?

The Silva Rhetoricæ (http://rhetoric.byu.edu/)(Forest of Rhetoric) has a large collection you can browse.

[Judg]

Cool link, Berry, thanks!

[James D. Macdonald]

Now I also find that I've got this second one (I'm in rewrite, so this is mostly hypothetical). If the second one is ready before the first is actually accepted by an agent, should I begin sending it out separately, or save it for later (and start on a third one)?


When the second one is finished (all the re-writes, all the beta-reads, everything) start sending it around as if the first didn't exist, and at the same time start writing your third.

[euclid]

I received a rejection from the agent who read the whole book. He said he liked the plot, but the book needs to move along at a faster pace.

I was working on an outline for the sequel. Now, I'm not sure whether to press on with the sequel or go back and rewrite.

I find it difficult to work on two things at once, btw.

What would you do, Jim?

[James D. Macdonald]

Say you re-write. Say the next agent says "The book is too fast." What are you going to do then?

The reason you started sending it around was because you'd made it as good as you could.

If the agent says, "Make these changes and send it back," that's one thing. But if not, send the book to the next one on your list and continue working on your present WIP.

Remember, unless the first work sells, there isn't going to be a sequel. Make the sequel stand alone.

[euclid]

Thanks for the advice, Jim. The first book that I ever wrote (1995) was about 90,000 words. I sent it to an agent who said: it's too long for a first novel. Reduce it to 60,000, so I did, then another agent said it was too short...

The sequel will stand on its own. No problem.

[smsarber]

She didn't wait until Thursday. Rachel LeeAnne Sarber, 6lbs 7oz, born 9:02 AM Wed. May 13, 2009


Iron Maiden - Paschendale (the intro)

Or "Wasted Years," and Steve Harris runs a pedal note on his bass guitar through the verses on most Maiden songs;)

[renaissancewoman]

She didn't wait until Thursday. Rachel LeeAnne Sarber, 6lbs 7oz, born 9:02 AM Wed. May 13, 2009




Or "Wasted Years," and Steve Harris runs a pedal note on his bass guitar through the verses on most Maiden songs;)
Congratulations!:partyguy:

[Neversage]

She didn't wait until Thursday. Rachel LeeAnne Sarber, 6lbs 7oz, born 9:02 AM Wed. May 13, 2009

Woo! (accompanied by various generic celebration and animal sounds including, but not limited to: elephants, lions, giraffes, and geese)

[fringle]

Congrats! :)

[euclid]

She didn't wait until Thursday. Rachel LeeAnne Sarber, 6lbs 7oz, born 9:02 AM Wed. May 13, 2009

That's brilliant, Steve. She looks just like you!

[Scribhneoir]

She didn't wait until Thursday. Rachel LeeAnne Sarber, 6lbs 7oz, born 9:02 AM Wed. May 13, 2009


Congratulations! :PartySmil

[Calliopenjo]

:hooray::Cake::TheWave::PartySmil:e2cheer::e2cheer ::e2bear:

For you Steven. It's good to know all of you are happy and healthy.

[smsarber]

Thanks to you all!

I've still been reading Ghost Story and it is strange to me, in a way, that only thirty years ago "telling" was a larger part of the writing style. I guess I was born thirty years too late, because my natural style and voice seems to fall more towards the style of the storyteller-- not showing as much. But a few posts back Uncle Jim said readers need much less backstory that you'd think. And as I have been rewriting my novel I've been pulling out a lot of the initial backstory. Without realizing it, I was following advice I hadn't heard yet. In the first draft I thought I needed a ton of backstory because of the nature of the book. But it doesn't need the clutter. Yes, he can be taught;)

[RJK]

Congratulations Steven. I'll bet that's a morning you won't forget.

[MiltonPope]

I am a 317 year-old marshmallow Peep. Purple, since you asked... we're the nice ones. Yellows are snobs, they say they're the originals and therefore the only "real" Peeps out there.

I'm too proud of myself for getting this: 317 years ago we had Pepys, not Peeps.

--Milton

[James D. Macdonald]

Now that we've looked at epiphor and anaphor, let's look at another -phor, diaphor.

Like epiphora and anaphora, diaphora is a kind of repetition. Diaphora is the repetition of a common term so that it has two different meanings. It doesn't necessarily imply a comparison (there's another -phor that does that).

For example:



That lie shall lie so heavy on my sword (Richard II (Shakespeare))

We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately. (B. Franklin)

You can also have diaphora by changing the type of sentence:

De Valvert: Villain, cad, stupid flat-footed fool!
Cyrano: Ah? And I am Cyrano Savinian Hercule de Bergerac.

[Neversage]

*Refrains from using this technique to make very bad jokes.*

"How did the game go last night?" Edward said, looking up at Running-Deer.
"The wind told me that we winned," Running-Deer said after a long draw from his pipe, the feathers of his headdress swaying in the breeze.

/facepalm

[edit: hit post too early.]

"We fly, or we fly," Ace said as he engaged the enemy fighter planes.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

An offshoot question: I was wondering. Will anyone use epiphor, anaphor, or diaphor when an editor and/or agent looks at your manuscript?

Curious really.

[James D. Macdonald]

Will anyone use epiphor, anaphor, or diaphor when an editor and/or agent looks at your manuscript?


Will someone say, "Wow! Great diaphora!" No, probably not. Will someone say, "Wow! Great writing!" Well, I certainly hope so.

Knowing the kinds of things you can make words do can't hurt. But you aren't required to memorize the names. There won't be a test in the morning.

See also the array of intimidation tactics used by the Piranha (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZkWL-XvO0U) Brothers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evj24bXakqg).


(The dia- in diaphor, by the way, is the same dia- as the dia- in dialog, diarrhea, and diabolic.)

[James D. Macdonald]

Next on the -phor hit parade comes metaphor. This is the one everyone knows about.

Metaphor is comparison. Not the wimpy comparison of simile, where you use "like" to show that one of these things is (in some manner or way like another), you just come out and say that one of these things is the other.

"O, my love is like a red, red rose..." (R. Burns) is a simile.

"Love is a rose..." (N. Young) is a metaphor.

Other examples of metaphor:

"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."


Observe the reasons for using metaphor (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/general/gl_metaphor.html) here at OWL.


Two ways metaphor can go badly wrong: cliche and mixed metaphor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzQ351pH4eg).

There's a special way metaphor can go wrong if you write fantasy or science fiction: your readers may take your metaphors literally. "He was a walking skeleton" would be read differently by a fantasy reader and a mainstream reader.

[Calliopenjo]

He was a walking skeleton that guarded the caves. (Just for fun.)

[Neversage]

Paris, France, 1789
Thirty years later--under the rule of Louie the sixteenth--outstanding grievances between aristocrat and peasant had begun to boil. The pot in which these troubles boiled was kindled by the firewood of oppression and heated by flames that sucked the air from gasping peasants. Would the pot cool off? Would it merely simmer? Or would it boil over in the kitchen of France to stain the floor of history forever?

From the film Start the Revolution Without Me.

[smsarber]

He was a walking skeleton, and his clothes no longer fit. The potion's effects were not as advertised, but maybe he should have expected as much. Never trust a harpy until you've read the fine print in the contract.
_________

So what did I mean? Literal skeleton, or figurative? (it's hard to type with a baby in your arms!)

[Ken Schneider]

That's when you need to qualify your statement.

He was so thin he looked like a walking skeleton? No?

[smsarber]

I was just playing along with Uncle Jim's line, so if I qualified it, that wouldn't be fair.

[vox]

He was so thin he looked like a walking skeleton? No?

Using "like" or "as" zaps it from the mystical Land of Metaphor and drops it unceremoniously in the everyday world of Simile, where the writer's imagination does all the work. And who wants to work, really? :)

[smsarber]

Thanks for the back-up!:)

[Ken Schneider]

Using "like" or "as" zaps it from the mystical Land of Metaphor and drops it unceremoniously in the everyday world of Simile, where the writer's imagination does all the work. And who wants to work, really? :)

Exactly. You qualify the statment so that there's know doubt what it means.
He was a walking skeleton. Bones a rattlin'.
He looked like a walking skeleton. In his baggy clothes.

[smsarber]

But Ken, we were talking about metaphor.

[Dawnstorm]

Well, the question is how far you take the comparison. There are people who view fantasy/science fiction as a genre where you take metaphor all the way.

In poetry, you won't normally find a line "My love was a rose. Aphids swarmed all over her." There's a point to the comparison, and the parts that don't fit are simply ignored. The rose is pretty, smells nice... An extended metaphor might add the "but". The rose now has thorns, too. In SFF, the comparison is complete: if you ignore the aphids, the comparison is faulty. (Of course, it's not necessarily a comparison. It might just be a fun with imagery. Or logical absurdity.)

[Ken Schneider]

But Ken, we were talking about metaphor.


http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Calliopenjo]

This list came from one of the members of my writing group. It's a list of similies, analogies, and whatever. Some are really funny.
==========
1. Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two sides gently compressed by a ThighMaster.

2. His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free.

3. He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it.

4. She grew on him like she was a colony of E. Coli, and he was room-temperature Canadian beef.

5. She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes just before it throws up.

6. Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.

7. He was as tall as a six-foot, three-inch tree.

8. The revelation that his marriage of 30 years had disintegrated because of his wife’s infidelity came as a rude shock, like a surcharge at a formerly surcharge-free ATM machine.

9. The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn’t.

10. McBride fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a Hefty bag filled with vegetable soup.

[Rushie]

This list came from one of the members of my writing group. It's a list of similies, analogies, and whatever. Some are really funny.
==========
1. Her face was a perfect oval, like a circle that had its two sides gently compressed by a ThighMaster.

2. His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free.

3. He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it.

4. She grew on him like she was a colony of E. Coli, and he was room-temperature Canadian beef.

5. She had a deep, throaty, genuine laugh, like that sound a dog makes just before it throws up.

6. Her vocabulary was as bad as, like, whatever.

7. He was as tall as a six-foot, three-inch tree.

8. The revelation that his marriage of 30 years had disintegrated because of his wife’s infidelity came as a rude shock, like a surcharge at a formerly surcharge-free ATM machine.

9. The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling ball wouldn’t.

10. McBride fell 12 stories, hitting the pavement like a Hefty bag filled with vegetable soup.

ROFLMAO

[Charlie Horse]

I love those.

[vox]

Kip Atdotta's "Wet Dream" is full of silly plays on words and a few clever misdirects with metaphors and similes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l1GvDWtccI

[James D. Macdonald]

This list came from one of the members of my writing group. It's a list of similies, analogies, and whatever. Some are really funny.


Those, and more, come from here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/16/AR2007031600802.html) and here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/16/AR2007031600738.html).

[MiltonPope]

Those, and more, come from here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/16/AR2007031600802.html) and here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/16/AR2007031600738.html).

I followed those links at work, and almost hurt myself not laughing.

--Milton

[Neversage]

"Her artistic sense was exquisitely refined, like someone who can tell butter from I Can't Believe It's Not Butter."

It's hard to overstate how funny I found this to be.

On to writing. Is it okay to introduce a character you plan to do more with in a later book? He has a role, and a needed one, but I feel it's important to establish the first parts of his larger purpose. Does that make sense?

[James D. Macdonald]

"Is it okay to introduce a character you plan to do more with in a later book?

Of course it is.

As long as the character belongs in this book too. And I mean belongs.

[smsarber]

I followed those links at work, and almost hurt myself not laughing.

--Milton

You didn't even get a kick out of this?

Oooo, he smells bad, she thought, as bad as Calvin Klein's Obsession would smell if it were called Enema and was made from spoiled Spamburgers instead of natural floral fragrances.

Coming soon to a store near you, Enema, a fragrance from Ralph Lauren and George Foreman... You haven't smelled until you've smelt Enema.

[Neversage]

Of course it is.

As long as the character belongs in this book too. And I mean belongs.

Hmm. I'll try to go through the story in my head without him in it to make sure he really belongs. I want him to have a complete, resolved role in the story of the first book, but I also want him to be a resource my protag later turns to. Thanks, Uncle Jim.

[smsarber]

...but I also want him to be a resource my protag later turns to...

Deep Throat?

[FOTSGreg]

One of my writing critics liked the following from one of my stories. I'm not so sure about it's metaphoric content, but he liked it.

I checked the window. It was still morning outside. Traffic rumbled six stories below as the three-hour commute slowly ground people into slavery.

[Scribhneoir]

You didn't even get a kick out of this?

Oooo, he smells bad, she thought, as bad as Calvin Klein's Obsession would smell if it were called Enema and was made from spoiled Spamburgers instead of natural floral fragrances.

Coming soon to a store near you, Enema, a fragrance from Ralph Lauren and George Foreman... You haven't smelled until you've smelt Enema.

I think MiltonPope meant he had to refrain from laughing because he was at work and didn't want to give himself away.

[Neversage]

Deep Throat?

Sort of. More along the lines of "my enemy's enemy is my friend."

[smsarber]

I think MiltonPope meant he had to refrain from laughing because he was at work and didn't want to give himself away.

Ah-Ha!

[Idea Tailor]

I've been searching through various forums and haven't found a post that answers my question. I need to create an outline, not to be used as a skeleton to start/guide an ms, but in response to a request from an agent. In other words, the ms was written without an outline and now an agent I've asked to rep me has requested one. I've read that I should have 1-2 sentences/chapter. (I don't have chapters, but I can sort out that part, I think.)

I assume the agent wants an outline to trace the development of plot and character (they haven't requested a full,) but I don't know if it is to be written in prose like the ms or if it should be just the bare bones, (e.g., Jack meets Susan after running over her poodle.) Any pointers on what makes a professional, please-send-me-your-full outline much appreciated.

One other newbie question. When the agent says I can send either the first 50 pages or a couple of "stories," what do they mean by a story?
Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

For the outline:

Your choice. Tell the story of your novel. Keep it around ten pages single-spaced. Make sure you include the end.

(I do work from outlines, but my outlines are about 3/4 the length of the finished book.)

Now, as to "a couple of stories," beats me. Are you pitching a collection? Do you have a couple of stories lying around that work out to around fifty pages in total?

Easiest probably to just saw off the first fifty pages of your novel and send them along.

[smsarber]

Idea Tailor, this (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3560703&postcount=15) may help you. Of course, it may not. But it may. But it may not... we could do this all day;) Welcome to AW!

[James D. Macdonald]

Picked this up in another thread here, and now I bring it to you (http://www.joebobbriggs.com/jbamerica/1991/jba910510.html).

[Idea Tailor]

Thank you, Uncle Jim and Steven. I do have an outline a bit like yours, Steven. I used to to keep track of what happened where. Though it needs work, I'm glad that format is acceptable. There goes my holiday weekend.... Gladly!

As to "stories," beats me. I'm a first-time author and it is a single ms, so I don't think it has to do with me. I've heard people say you can send sample chapters, so I guessed maybe they meant that but were not calling it that in case a "story" did not fit neatly within chapter boundaries.

Since we are on the first 50 pages thing, I have another question. The ms is prefaced by what was first an Author's Note (but I was told nobody reads those and everyone liked the A.N.) so it became a prologue (but agents toss anything with a prologue) so now it is the first chapter. Now some people like it and some people think I've wasted half a dozen pages before I start the story. It also means my first 50 end sooner than I would prefer, because I miss a bit on my antihero that's a great place to end my first 50. Advice?

[euclid]

Joe Bob's piece was great. I do not agree with his "THERE ARE NO NEW IDEAS, only new ways of writing old ideas." This may be true at some level of consolidation, but it is not helpful. I also avoid those web sites which contain (short) lists of "all plots". And I think some famous writer once said that all stories boil down to a journey (paraphrasing wildly).

For me, each book I read contains a new story, just as if it was the first and only book ever published. And this is the only way that I can write: I place my idea on the page and ignore any suggestions that I might have re-invented something that already exists.

When I was a young man, I gave one of my short stories to the most significant woman in my life at the time. She said, "It's been done." So I tried again, flexing my intellectual muscle anew. "It's not original," she said.

So I gave up.

It was about 35 years before I got back to writing.

[Neversage]

Euclid,
I can agree with your opinion on original plots for the most part. I think if we generalize plots to a great enough degree, the statement could be true that there are only X plots, but isn't it the fine details and the author's own finishing touches that make every book unique?

I almost did what you did and gave up because I noticed how similar some of my ideas were to stories and events I had grown up with. I ended up just changing a detail here and there until it took on new life. With that new inspiration, I rewrote it all and it was fresh and new.

Maybe some yahoo somewhere came to the same ideas independently, but to my knowledge, my combination of ideas is original. Thanks for being one more "don't give up" : )

[smsarber]

Boy, if agents toss anything with a prologue I'm in big trouble! I love the prologue, it can be so essential.

[euclid]

Never: Saying there are only X plots is like saying there are only two types of people.

[euclid]

Boy, if agents toss anything with a prologue I'm in big trouble! I love the prologue, it can be so essential.

The prologue should be used sparingly. An important part of the reader's pleasure is derived from discovering the world of the book by reading it. Too many prologues invade this space, telling the reader more than he/she needs to know. Better to let the information unfold naturally in the book.

Why do you use the word "essential" here? That suggests an attempt to influence the reader's viewpoint or, at worst, an infodumping exercise.

[Blue Sky]

Joe Bob has it down, eh?
Write.
Write.
Write.
Right!

Euclid: I had a similar experience during my first hitch in the army. One night I started a story about an unknown thing terrorizing people on the computer scratch pages. Some folks loved it, begging for more. The ending was disappointing; I rushed it because I had to delete it before shift change.

A friend a few years older than me with an English Lit degree mentioned the crap somebody had written on the scratch pages. He was surprised when I told him it was me. I took my crappy writing to heart and didn't write creatively for a long time.

Looking back, I naturally knew how to pace a story and build tremendous suspense in my...early twenties. Had to go waaay baaaack. And heck, it was a first draft hammered out in between listening to people speak in Russian.

It's so easy to blow out the spark of inspiration in a young person. I always support inspiration and I don't nuc the writing. He or she has thousands of writing hours ahead anyway, the true teacher.

My friend's input remains useful, however. When I spot one of my sacred cows.... Shhh. There's one over there. Wait here.

"Mooooo."

"Mooooooooo."

"Moo--"

[smsarber]

Why do you use the word "essential" here. That suggests an attempt to influence the reader's viewpoint or, at worst, an infodumping exercise.

Should have a question mark after "here."

Maybe it's just me, but a proper prologue can set the mood for the whole story.

[euclid]

I wasn't dissing you, Steve.

Question mark added. Thanks.

I just checked some of the fiction books on a shelf near my computer. 7 out of 14 have prologues, so maybe they're more common than I thought.

[smsarber]

I wasn't dissing you, Steve.



Didn't think you were, if I was curt it was because we were heading out the door, and the baby needed a change. It's all good.

I have cut the prologue from one story, because I agree that it can be better done in some instances through discovery throughout the novel. But I think a good deal of it depends on the genre of book. Almost every James Patterson book seems to have a prologue. So my thinking is crime drama-thrillers, esp. when you have many characters, can benefit from them. Dean Koontz uses them a good deal, but Stephen King doesn't seem to as much. So maybe horror can go either way. But I think Uncle Jim will say, "If it works for your book, then it works." But I would like to know how much validity there is to the statement that agents toss out anything with a prologue.

It seems to me that many times a prologue is a future or past part of the story told from the perspective of a character which will not be used in other parts. Like a kidnap victim's thoughts in her keeper's basement--you may never go back inside her head, but it may be something needed to set up the whole book.

[Judg]

If agents tossed out anything with a prologue, Euclid would not be finding prologues in 50% of his books.

It's pretty hard to generalize about agents anyway. They each have their own tastes.

[Neversage]

I held onto my prologue for a long time. In the end, it wouldn't fit into chapter 1, so I scrapped it, and decided to work it into other scenes with flashbacks.

[Idea Tailor]

Since I unintentionally lobbed an active one into the forum (re prologues,) I went back to my notes from the conference I attended. Mea culpa on two counts:
1. It was an editor speaking, so he said *editors* not *agents*
2. He said "many," not "all," at least according to my notes

What I wrote down in my notes was: "Many editors hate prologues because when it ends we're introduced to new character, time & place & the prologue is a trick to get us into the mystery to attract attention & make book more intriguing... Many editors won't read any ms with a prologue... Ch. 1 not exciting enough... Backstory... Pages of history that happened before story opened... 2-3 paragraphs of history in one place = backstory dump..."

As a new writer, I therefore concluded it was better not to have a prologue. Now I think it really is an Author's Note (what it was to start with) and I ought to just go back to calling it that. I don't feel I can nix it because it does set the stage historically with some information that doesn't fit until later in the novel yet is the backdrop for the antihero and she is the main feature of chapter one.
<sigh>
Every time I think the ms can really rise to the top of the slush, I realize how much I don't know and how different this industry is. But the prescription is right on this page. Write.
Thanks, all.

[James D. Macdonald]

But I would like to know how much validity there is to the statement that agents toss out anything with a prologue.

None.

Prologues can be done badly or they can be done well. It's incredibly easy to do them badly.

Figure that half of your readers will skip the prologue. Will your novel make sense to them?

Have I used prologues? Yes, of course I have. Did I do them well? Of course I did! Brilliantly! For I, Wile E. Coyote, am a Super genius!


So, let me show you a prologue from one of my books.

Right here. (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/POTSHEAD.htm)

Maybe, when I'm done with my current project, I'll put up the first chapter from that book side-by-side with it.

[Krintar]

I shouldn't have looked at that. Now I want to read the book :tongue

[James D. Macdonald]

Now I want to read the book :tongue

Don't let me stop you....

[Cyia]

The sample pages I send with my queries turned out to be a prologue. (Wasn't designed that way, but the darn thing grew a mind of its own.) I've gotten plenty of requests off it, and a complement on the style from the one agent I queried by mistake who didn't handle my genre.

So long as it's good, the fact that it's a prologue doesn't matter at all. (And I generally hate prologues...)

[pictopedia]

The only existing two types of people: Men and women.
The only existing two types of stories: Good and bad.
The only existing two types of prologues: Necessary and unnecessary for reader involvement.

[RJK]

Before I read it here, I never gave a thought to NOT reading prologues. I'm surprised to learn that half the readers skip it. When I pick up a book, I want to read everything the author wrote, not parts of the story. To each his own.
The big discussion regarding whether to include or not include a prologue will probably continue well after we've all gone to meet our makers. IMHO, agents aren't averse to prologues, it's what's in them that bothers them. If you fill your prologue with nothing but infodump, it's bad. If you tell a story, it's good.

[James D. Macdonald]

If the agent is still reading on Page Fifty, and wants to turn to Page Fifty-One, you've done well. Regardless of whether you call it Prologue, Chapter One, or Fred.

Similarly, if the agent pushes the work aside after Page Ten and reaches for the return envelope, you haven't done so well. Regardless of whether you calll it ... y'know.

What agents and editors are: A class of reader. Think of them as Super Readers.

What you are trying to do is satisfy your readers. This starts (most times) with the Super Readers.

They are all playing gigantic games of Would You Turn the Page. Just like we do here. Only with real money on the line.

We've said this before: Agents and editors are professional gamblers. Professional gamblers don't make their money by winning every hand. They make their money by making the right bets on the hands they're dealt.

[allenparker]

We've said this before: Agents and editors are professional gamblers. Professional gamblers don't make their money by winning every hand. They make their money by making the right bets on the hands they're dealt.

The trick is to make them think you are their winning hand. It is much easier if your are Aces.
<sorry, couldn't help myself.>

[Rushie]

Before I read it here, I never gave a thought to NOT reading prologues. I'm surprised to learn that half the readers skip it. When I pick up a book, I want to read everything the author wrote, not parts of the story. To each his own.


I used to skip prologues. I think I was conditioned by so many bad ones, but nowadays I read them, and a good part of the time I feel like I'm being forced to by my English teacher. I guess they're still bad.

I give authors a pass on the prologue. It's the first sentence of chapter 1 they better wow me with. When I'm in a store deciding whether to buy, I go to Chapter 1, read the first sentence, then skim the rest of that page, looking for a word or line of dialogue that grabs my attention. Then I open it at random in the middle and read a paragraph or two. If what I see is well written and intriguing, and the back cover is enticing, then I might buy it. I might go over the prologue if I'm indecisive, but I don't give it much weight.

[euclid]

The trick is to make them think you are their winning hand. It is much easier if your are Aces.
<sorry, couldn't help myself.>

You do seem to get a lot of these crazy irresistable impulses, naked guy.

[euclid]

I give authors a pass on the prologue. It's the first sentence of chapter 1 they better wow me with. When I'm in a store deciding whether to buy, I go to Chapter 1, read the first sentence, then skim the rest of that page, looking for a word or line of dialogue that grabs my attention. Then I open it at random in the middle and read a paragraph or two. If what I see is well written and intriguing, and the back cover is enticing, then I might buy it. I might go over the prologue if I'm indecisive, but I don't give it much weight.

I go to bookstores with lists of books that I've read review of. And I'm never indecisive, at least I don't think so.

[Perle_Rare]

I shouldn't have looked at that. Now I want to read the book :tongue

Ditto here. But I'd have to see the first chapter to understand why that prologue couldn't have just been the first chapter.

[Blue Sky]

Sweet prologue, Mr. Coyote. As I read it, I also wondered why it wasn't chapter one. Look forward to seeing the latest work and this side-by-side.

I was impatient with prologues years ago. As a reader I was willing to slip right into an author's creation, so I didn't appreciate and still don't enjoy the abrupt feeling between prologue and chapter one. It feels like the author didn't trust me, or lacked confidence in his or her story.

My touchie-feelie memories parallel and support your advice to cut the malarky and start with the story--chapter 1.

[smsarber]

The only existing two types of people: Men and women.
The only existing two types of stories: Good and bad.
The only existing two types of prologues: Necessary and unnecessary for reader involvement.

:Huh:
What about hermaphrodites, mediocre stories, and prologues important to some readers but not all?

[euclid]

Is that really a prologue, Jim? It reads more like a blurb for the book, to me.

[James D. Macdonald]

Is that really a prologue, Jim? It reads more like a blurb for the book, to me.


Scroll down the page, Euclid. The prologue is the part that's labeled "Prologue."

[James D. Macdonald]

Why it's a prologue:

Because it's a short story, set in the same universe as the rest of the novel, with the same main characters, but separated in time and space from the rest of the action.

[euclid]

Scroll down the page, Euclid. The prologue is the part that's labeled "Prologue."

Right, sorry. I didn't bother going back to your link. I opened the book instead (*ahem*) and found the (12-page) prologue. When I read the book, I did read the prologue, btw.

[smsarber]

Time to ask Uncle Jim more personal questions:)

Uncle Jim, you told me you read Ghost Story before you became a writer, and it was pulished in 1979 (sorry to date you). You also said you wrote a Hardy Boys book as a kid. So I get the impression you were always interested in becoming a writer. So when did the realization it was the only right path for you come? How did you one day decide, "I have to write!"?

For me, I started with poems. This was before I got sober. But after I got sober, writing fiction became a catalyst in my sobriety. Not that writing keeps me sober, but it helps in a theraputic way, a way nothing else seems to. And I won't mess with what works.

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, I'd wanted to write when I was young. And I did write a lot during middle school and high school. Then one day, when I was 19, I stopped (I even remember the last words I wrote on that occassion). And I didn't write a word of fiction again until I was 35.

I haven't stopped since.

[smsarber]

:Clap:Bravo for starting back up, and not stopping!

[SarahMacManus]

Well, I'd wanted to write when I was young. And I did write a lot during middle school and high school. Then one day, when I was 19, I stopped (I even remember the last words I wrote on that occassion). And I didn't write a word of fiction again until I was 35.

I haven't stopped since.

I did the same thing - except you can slide it up a few years.

Gawd I've got a lot of catching up to do. Hope I manage as well as you have.

:)

[FOTSGreg]

Same here. I wrote and drew all through middle and high school, got a job as a tech writer in 1982, and then essentially stopped writing until around 1989 or so when I started writing the rules for a wargame. I didn;t start writing fiction again until sometime around 1998 and didn;t start seriously until 2004.

In the interim I had over a million words of non-fiction (mostly proprietary) papers published here and there so I had a buttload of crap to unlearn (and which I am still unlearning).

[smsarber]

Going back to prologues for a minute, here's (http://smsarber.blogspot.com/2009/02/silvertone-first-7-chapters-rough-draft.html) the link to one of my WIPs, so if anyone wants to check it out, feel free, and let me know what you think of the prologue. Warning, not for the faint-hearted.

[pictopedia]

:Huh:
What about hermaphrodites, mediocre stories, and prologues important to some readers but not all?

The mediocre stories are bad stories.
The prologues only some readers like are unnecessary for reader involvement
And the hermaphrodites live happily ever after, either dressed up as a man, or a woman.

[euclid]

Well, I'd wanted to write when I was young. And I did write a lot during middle school and high school. Then one day, when I was 19, I stopped (I even remember the last words I wrote on that occassion). And I didn't write a word of fiction again until I was 35.

I haven't stopped since.

You mean to say you're over 35? What a shocker!

[euclid]

Going back to prologues for a minute, here's (http://smsarber.blogspot.com/2009/02/silvertone-first-7-chapters-rough-draft.html) the link to one of my WIPs, so if anyone wants to check it out, feel free, and let me know what you think of the prologue. Warning, not for the faint-hearted.

I'll take a look at that when I'm feeling less faint-hearted.

Meanwhile, take a look at "What Agents Hate"
www.writersdigest.com/article/what-agents-hate/ (http://www.writersdigest.com/article/what-agents-hate/)

Tried to extract that prologue and maybe the first 2 chapters so that I could print and take it into the other room to read, but my mouse couldn't pick it up for some reason. Is it posted in SYW or somewhere that I could print from? I think I've read it before, btw.

PS THIS IS POST #1,000.

[smsarber]

The mediocre stories are bad stories.
The prologues only some readers like are unnecessary for reader involvement

Yeah, but what I really meant was that all of that is subjective to the individual reading the story. Something I think is great you might think is mediocre, or bad. A prologue can only be useful if people read them, so they can be completely necessary for reader involvement to no avail in many instances--since appearantly many readers don't read them.

Euclid, I don't have this version posted here in AW yet, but maybe I'll shave off the first two chaps+ the prologue and post it in Horror later today.

[Ken Schneider]

Well, I'd wanted to write when I was young. And I did write a lot during middle school and high school. Then one day, when I was 19, I stopped (I even remember the last words I wrote on that occassion). And I didn't write a word of fiction again until I was 35.

I haven't stopped since.

I was always curious to know what job you had when you said you would wake up 2 hours before going to work to write.

Post Navy ______________ Pre-full time writer.

[James D. Macdonald]

That job was US Navy, but I was assigned to an overseas shore command with regular hours. I went directly from Uncle Sam to full-time writer.

[James D. Macdonald]

Getting too much accomplished? Managing your time well? I have a solution!

Observe, if you will, the narrative web-comic Girl Genius (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20021104) by Phil and Kaja Foglio.

Notice several things:

First, the authors get the story across by means of narrative and dialog. "Narrative," here, is the artwork. The equivalent of the descriptions in your novel. Dialog is dialog.

Your dialog tags are the way the balloons are drawn. Notice that most of the balloons are smooth ovals. But sometimes you'll have jagged balloons (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20021108) or other shapes to indicate shouting, whispering, or other tones of voice. These are rare.

Note too, in long-running narrative (and this story started in 2002 and has been running three times a week for the past six-and-a-half years), that the authors are using positional play. Interesting things are placed in the narrative that aren't picked up again for years, but then become important to the plot. Those things are a) interesting when they first show up, so that they're b) memorable when they're brought back into play. But they also make sense (or at least don't stand out as nonsensical) when they first appear.

One of the limitations of the serial form is that you can't go back and revise if you suddenly discover that you need something in a later chapter. So you have to have interesting/multipurpose things all the way along. Give yourself a large supply of parts with which to build your plot.

Okay, what else do we notice? When there's a huge expository lump, having something else that's inherently interesting going on at the same time. This can be something as simple as having the characters running around (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20030331) while pumping out the exposition, or throwing in a shapely young lady in her undies. (Nothing wrong with cheap tricks as long as they work.)

Pray notice too the smaller narrative arcs, the overall narrative arc, the use of comedy relief, and ending darned-near every page on a cliffhanger.


(People who are looking for a shorter story can check out Revenge of the Weasel Queen (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070827).)

[James D. Macdonald]

And it's time for another first page:

I. Mandeyn: Embrig Spaceport

At well past local midnight in Embrig Spaceport--port of call for the wealthy provincial world of Mandeyn--the Feddisgatt Allee ran almost deserted from the Port Authority offices to the Strip. The warehouses lining the Allee blocked most of the skyglow from the lighted docking areas beyond, and Mandeyn's high-riding moon shed its pale illumination only in the center of the broad Allee.
Beka Rossalin-Metadi whistled an off-key tune through her front teeth as she took a leisurely return walk down the Allee to her ship. The black wool cloak she wore against the cold of Embrig's winter night swirled around her booted ankles, and if she'd put a bit of extra swagger into her stride as she left eh Painted Lily Lounge--well, she figured she was entitled.

Damn right you're entitled, my girl, she told herself. You made a tidy profit on carrying those parts for Interworld Data, and you've got another good cargo already

Will you turn the page?

[Rushie]

Going back to prologues for a minute, here's (http://smsarber.blogspot.com/2009/02/silvertone-first-7-chapters-rough-draft.html) the link to one of my WIPs, so if anyone wants to check it out, feel free, and let me know what you think of the prologue. Warning, not for the faint-hearted.

I am writing this as a reader, not a writer giving advice.

First, you passed the acid test, which is it kept my interest long enough for me to finish it. The writing is smooth, I was pleased with the descriptions of the radio, the song and Len looking in the mirror - even though some say using a mirror as a device to describe the character is cheap, you pulled it off well enough; he caught his reflection as he poured bourbon. We all know there are often mirrors behind bars and we soon find out he had good reason to pour bourbon, so it flowed from the story, it didn't seem contrived. The subsequent action certainly grabbed me and kept me.

Now to the "bad" stuff. The first part of the prologue paints this guy in a positive state of mind. He is happy about the radio. It works with the room. He is happy about how well preserved his body is. You hint something is wrong, but the subtle hint is way under-proportioned to what happens. He is usually hard, but today a calm look, a slight grin. Yes, a sudden calm is common when a person has made a suicide decision, but the "slight grin" coupled with thinking how well his room decor worked, and how good he looks, does not adequately foreshadow or prepare me for what he does. This is limited PoV - I am in his head. So, if you want me to believe that his main thoughts and emotions are on how great the radio worked out and how good his body looks, when in reality he is working up to killing his family and hanging himself, there is only one way I can buy it as you portray it - he has some sort of dissociative identity disorder. You as an author need to explain to me how he could have such a positive state of mind - not because "it's all going to end soon" - but because of minor surface things - and then go end it all. I don't buy that someone about to do these things would look so approvingly at his radio and then leave it, not to enjoy it anymore. You could have added a stronger hint about his plans there: "He remained happy about the decision - too bad he wasn't going to be able to enjoy it anymore." Since you don't give me the hint he won't be around to enjoy the radio anymore, you are withholding from me what he knows. That violates me being in his point of view. The only way that works for me is if he has multiple personality disorder or for some other reason doesn't really know what he is about to do. And if that is the case, I'll need another reason he is pouring himself a bourbon.

Maybe you are doing this. You say his reflection looks different but he can't put his finger on it, and his hand looks different, like he is looking through someone else's eyes. This suggests that he isn't consciously aware of what he's about to do. When I finished the prologue, I said, "that better be the case."

So, as a reader, the whole thing works... IF... further on in the story I discover that he had multiple personalities, or was possessed by a spirit, or under the control of a space robot - whatever - that makes the whole thing hang together. If you don't do that pretty quickly, and I realize you want me to believe a guy about to do this level of violence has NO inner thoughts any darker than the ones you show me, then I feel manipulated by you the author. I feel you are deliberately deceiving me into thinking his state of mind is mild because you are trying to up the shock value of what he does.

Now if that is what you want, you can do it. Use omniscient PoV. Show me what he is doing, but get me out of his head. Don't give me his intimate thoughts about being happy about the radio choice. The radio doesn't "give character to the room" (that is an opinion) but instead use objective description, "the radio's brown tones matched the aged hardwood floor". That's simple fact; observation. Distance. If you get me out of his head and only show me what he is physically doing (pouring bourbon, getting the gun) then I can buy him going and blowing away his family. Have to be careful about the mirror; either don't have him looking in the mirror and just descirbe him (without the self-congratulation) or describe his exterior actions only (he caught himself in the mirror as he poured the bourbon, smiled and pushed a stray lock back into place.) This shows us he approves of what he sees but gets us out of his head.

So to summarize, good prologue in general but one serious flaw. You should either rewrite it from Omniscient PoV, or you should make sure we're included in all Len's thoughts, which should seamlessly prepare us for the shock of what he does. It can be a surprise; you don't have to tell us he is picturing pounding in his wife's face, but we will need a much more appropriate state of mind proportional to his soon-to-be-committed act, so that it feels the action flows naturally from the state of mind you showed us. If you want to leave it in limited PoV as it is, because somehow he doesn't know what he is about to do, I would suggest opening chapter 1 with a different scene, one in which we are given the basis for the story. Is this story going to include space robots? Multiple personalities? Demonic possession? Very soon, I need to say, "Oh, that is why," so I can trust you the author. Otherwise I will put the book down.

So, as written, prologue passed my acid test (and I'm a person who dislikes prologues) but it gives you a bigger challenge: now chapter 1 is going to have to justify the prologue AND hook me in all over again.

[raburrell]

And it's time for another first page:



Will you turn the page?

Holy adjectives, Batman. No, I wouldn't. For all the description of location and outfit, the MC hasn't done anything to capture my interest.

[CurranCR]

And it's time for another first page:



Will you turn the page?


No, I wouldn't turn the page. Too much description for me. But, to be fair, I'm not a sci-fi fan.

Caroline

[RJK]

If this story follows the formula, she'll be whacked on the head first thing on page two. She'll be robbed of her profits, and whatever mcguffin she needs to pick up her next cargo. Then the action starts.

[Rushie]

And it's time for another first page:



Will you turn the page?

YES but the author better not throw too many more confusing unfamiliar names at me all at once. The more of that I must work with in the first paragraph the better the hook needs to be but with this he (or she) squeaks in under the wire. I love the black cloak swirling and her whistling off tune (through front teeth no less) and the talk of carrying more cargo that will give her profit tells me for sure something is bound to go wrong. I want to turn the page and find out what is going to go wrong.

[smsarber]

Will you turn the page?

Not sure... this isn't my usual genre, so I find it hard to decide in seven lines. But it seemed smooth enough--even laden with adjectives.

Rushie, thanks. Did you read past the Prologue? It was the prologue and the first seven chapters. Just wondering.

[FOTSGreg]

I would probably turn the page just to find out if there's any action on the next one.

This piece feels vaguely familiar...Ah! Haven't read the series as I disliked the premise on the cover of the first book.

[Blue Sky]

Yes, I would turn the page. The sentences are longish and the writing flows less for me starting with the black cloak, but it's intriquing. She's a sassy gal, playing what looks like a dangerous game in a dangerous place.

But first I'll have to read more of "Girl Genius." When I hit January of 2003 I realized that I was reading it from the beginning. Using dialup, I'll have to follow her adventures in stages.

It's over the top and beyond asinine. I love it! Thanks. :) (Nice boobs. Can I say that here?)

Jeez, are we going to have to practice our drawing skills too?

[batgirl]

I'm wondering if first pages aren't a sort of warning? Back-cover blurbs are almost like movie posters; they're meant to draw you in and get your cash, and don't really care whether you come out of the theatre satisfied or ticked off. Blurbs can misrepresent, like posters showing the heroine in skimpy clothes when she barely unbuttons her collar in the actual movie.
But when I open the book and read the first few pages, that's more like someone saying to me, "this is what it will be like for real. Are you up for it?"

I'd read on with this one, because I like the little touches like whistling through her teeth. I know it's sf, frontier-world setting, and something's about to change for the character.
I'd read on for almost all the first pages, really.
-Barbara

[Calliopenjo]

First, "Would you turn the page?"
It's hard to say. Besides the complicated names that are hard to pronounce I don't see much. To me, it reads like a typical first page. The story starts off slow in a "here we are" sort of way that may lead to further adventures.
==========

Second: A plea to Uncle Jim:
I wrote this story about two years ago before I knew anything about POV, show vs. tell, etc. I'm attacking rewriting it again based on comments from critters on various sites.

Other critters have said that this is more telling than showing about how difficult it was to go from the eastern side to western side. I thought I smoothed it out so that it's less telling but more showing but I'm getting an opposite reaction. I thought maybe with the eyes of a professional it will help me to see where it is telling not showing.

I tried asking the critter, and they said show us how difficult it was to pass through. Which doesn't tell me much because I can't see where it is that they see it. Even after they pointed it out. Anyway. . . here it is::Shrug:

How reckless can you be? If you want to kill your own villagers, be my guest. “I doubt your story and I would . . .” Tobin slipped a message into his mother’s hands. After reading the note Clarine told Jephah, “Good luck, Jephah. Have a good day.”

Clarine and Tobin left for the western side of the island. It had taken a little longer than normal because of the rockslide that happened during the storm. They could not go over; going around the rockslide was the only alternative. Splashing through shallow water and mud puddles they crossed the path to reach the other side of the rockslide. The village came into view with animals, crops, villagers, and hanging meats were noticed as they approached. Clarine laughed at Tobin as he pinched his nose.

The underlined portion is the part in question. Any ideas, notes, comments, light bulbs are welcome.

[Scribhneoir]

Will you turn the page?

Sorry, Uncle Jim, no I wouldn't. Partly because SF isn't my cup of tea and partly because my eyes glazed over at the names. Mendeyn, Embrig, Feddisgatt -- they're all trying too hard to be, I don't know, otherworldly? But at least they're pronounceable.

[Rushie]

Not sure... this isn't my usual genre, so I find it hard to decide in seven lines. But it seemed smooth enough--even laden with adjectives.

Rushie, thanks. Did you read past the Prologue? It was the prologue and the first seven chapters. Just wondering.

Yeah I read the first two chapters. I like the story very much so far. I would polish more. For example: "The blues were an outlet, a way to communicate grief." That's kind of telling the reader the obvious. I'd replace that with some metaphor or example or act or dialogue, I dunno, anything but simply stating something we already know. Also it is an internal repetition: "an outlet" pretty much equals "a way to". Don't need to say it twice. In fact, here is what I'd do with that whole paragraph:

"And he could relate to Clapton. They both had lost a son. Clapton's blues were grief."

And leave it at that. Losing a son is THE most important thing he has in common with Clapton - it's pretty profound - so don't follow it with "we also both play guitar". That robs it of its impact. If you need to tell us that he also plays guitar as a hobby, work that in somewhere else. And shortening up the blues=grief thing makes it immediate and emotional. It illustrates how Clapton, and by extension your character, experiences the music, rather than just dumping a fact about the blues in general.

I like the way the radio comes back into the story at the end of chapter 2. I love the use of music, "What a Wonderful World" in the prologue, as a kind of thumbing the nose at what ends up happening... and then Clapton's angst-ridden blues in the middle of trying to get away from pain and make a better life. For me that adds depth.

[James D. Macdonald]

One of the neat things about Girl Genius is that you can watch the Foglios' artwork and writing improve as the years pass.

[Ken Schneider]

And it's time for another first page:



Will you turn the page?


I turn the page. If she's anything like Jens Metadi You'd be in for a royal treat.

[smsarber]

I turn the page. If she's anything like Jens Metadi You'd be in for a royal treat.
Is that a hint?

[lexxi]

Will you turn the page?

Probably. If I had picked up the book because I was in the mood for a space adventure, the first page would suggest that the author's voice and the character of Beka seem promising.

There was one point that slowed me down, though.

At well past local midnight in Embrig Spaceport . . . the Feddisgatt Allee ran almost deserted from the Port Authority offices to the Strip.

I had to read on to the second sentence to confirm that the Feddisgatt Allee is essentially street, not a person or other creature who might be running somewhere at well past local midnight.

So then I had to stop and wonder whether the allee runs from the Port Authority offices to the Strip only at that time of night. What happens to it at other hours?

It takes a third read to figure out that what I'm supposed to learn from this sentence (I think) is that either the allee runs from the Port Authority offices to the Strip AND at well past local midnight is almost deserted, or else maybe it runs a longer distance but that particular section of it is deserted at that time of night.

[euclid]

I plead the fifth amendment! :)

[smsarber]

I plead the fifth amendment! :)

But you're not American!:)

[Ken Schneider]

Is that a hint?

Of course it is.

You don't know?

Tisk, tisk.

[Red_Dahlia]

I'd turn the page. The whistling through the teeth was a nice bit, but the next page would really have to hook me to keep me reading after that.

[Perle_Rare]

I turn the page and I trust the reason for turning the next 300 pages is on page 2... which it will be, if I know anything about the authors of this piece. :)

[smsarber]

Hmmmm... and the authors's names are: Do**e & J** Mac****d (I was censored; I didn't put the asterisks in there;))! At least that's what I am gleaning from Ken and Perle. I knew it, or at least had the feeling right from the start. Which book, UJ?

[Judg]

I would keep reading because it hasn't ticked me off too badly yet. ;) Seriously, I only quit reading after such a short excerpt because it's very bad. I did not like the number of awkward names coming in such quick succession, and the infodump, brief though it was, seemed unnecessary, and made a difficult sentence even clunkier. But on the plus side, there is a good sense of atmosphere and I already have a bit of a feel for the character. But at this point I'd be easy to tip into closing the book if I were in a bookstore. If I'd already brought it home, I'd keep reading unless I encountered major irritation.

[Blue Sky]

Yes, Girl Genius improved noticably by June 2003. It started out a bit busy and course. I look forward to improvements to come.

Okay, almost time to quite messing around on aw again and edit more before work.

[Krintar]

Will you turn the page?
After the third unfamiliar word in the first sentence, my eyes were starting to glaze over. Especially since, like lexxi, I had to stop and figure out what kind of entity "the Feddisgatt Allee" was. That's just the way I am, though - I don't usually care where a given scene takes place, I'm more interested in who and what.
Of course, upon finding out the PoV character's name, I realised what it was... so yeah, I'd turn. Not much going on yet, but knowing the authors it won't stay that way for long.

[smsarber]

And we have the first deleted response after figuring out who the author is:)

[smcc360]

And we have the first deleted response after figuring out who the author is:)

I'd hate to be rude to a man after enjoying the hospitality of his (figurative) house.

[smsarber]

I'd hate to be rude to a man after enjoying the hospitality of his (figurative) house.

Yeah, a friend PM'd me and wondered how long it would take for the first deleted post after realizing who the writers are. I just wonder if FotsGreg's comment of disliking the premise of the cover is a joke. I mean, it sounds like a joke. Probably sticking my foot in my mouth now:Shrug:.

[Krintar]

But wouldn't it be worse to be rude to someone who isn't around, since they don't have the opportunity to rebut/learn from your comments?
Or to put it another way: if you feel that your comment was too rude to direct at Uncle Jim's work, then how would it be any more appropriate directed at someone else?
Just be honest. I severely doubt he's going to get you banned just for expressing your dislike of a page he wrote.

[smsarber]

Just be honest. I severely doubt he's going to get you banned just for expressing your dislike of a page he wrote.

NO SOUP FOR YOU!:D

[euclid]

But you're not American!:)

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all Americans are created equal…"

[euclid]

There should be no place for rudness here - not toward anyone. Constructive criticism is fine. Rudeness is not. It doesn't matter who the author(s) is/are.

[smsarber]

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all Americans are created equal…"
Just out of curiosity, were you born over here? I mean no disrespect, I was only teasing about not being American--you live on the Emerald Isle, right?

Sometimes rudeness and constructive critisism can be a very fine line drawn in the sand and scratched out. That's always my biggest fear if I critique something. My personality and the way I talk can be easily misconstrued. But a lesson I learned is to grow a thick skin, or I have no business trying to be a published author. Because there is no way to please everyone, someone will always have something negative (constructive or not) about things you write. But if you recognize what you've said about another author as rude, you should certainly retract the statement. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

[euclid]

I was found under a cabbage patch in Dublin, Ireland (not Dublin, Ohio) - or was it a rhubarb plant.

I visited USA in 1992 (mostly business) Phoenix, Flagstaff, the GC, Canyon de Chelly, then the US Open Golf Championship at pebble beach CA on the way home.

I returned in 2003 with my wife. I took her to the GC, she looked at it, said, "Wow!" and went off to buy some Native American jewelry. Women!

[pictopedia]

IWomen!

Was that an example of constructive criticism? ;)

(Just kidding. Couldn't resist to stick something into "There should be no place for rudness here - not toward anyone. Constructive criticism is fine. Rudeness is not. It doesn't matter who the author(s) is/are.")

[James D. Macdonald]

Oh, gracious.

I'm not going to take offense at anything said. That's indeed the first page from my second novel written (seventh published). The first novel (not counting the Hardy Boys pastiche in my youth) has never seen the light of day. I should certainly hope that I've improved as an artist since then!

My unflinching egotism, though, may soon post the second and third pages. (I'm being slowed in this by my need to retype; no electronic copies exist in any form usable by me--the original was on 5.25" Atari floppy disks.)

If I were to delete anything, it would be off-topic chatter. We're talking about writing here.

[Cyia]

I was found under a cabbage patch in Dublin, Ireland (not Dublin, Ohio) - or was it a rhubarb plant.

Under a cabbage patch? Someone buried you???

:D

[FOTSGreg]

smsarber, It wasn't a joke, but I meant no disrespect. I just don't go in much for that sort of setting.

[Bookdragonette]

I like sci-fi, so I would turn the page to see what happens. The amount of names in quick succession threw me off, though, so the second page has to really offer some incentive to go on.

[RJK]

Do we have rose petals for skin, or the hide of a rhinoceros? I'd hate to think this group is going to fall into the "Politically Correct" world of carefully saying nothing worthwhile.

[Rushie]

Oh, gracious.

I'm not going to take offense at anything said. That's indeed the first page from my second novel written (seventh published). The first novel (not counting the Hardy Boys pastiche in my youth) has never seen the light of day. I should certainly hope that I've improved as an artist since then!



Awesome! I'm sure you have. Maybe the most important ingredient to becoming a successful writer is not to let criticism stop you. Several years ago I posted a short story on a writer's forum. Someone replied something like, "That is the worst piece of garbage I have ever seen." I'm sorry to say I let that bring my writing to a grinding halt. It literally took years for me to try again.

Now I can look back and see what I did wrong (purple prose, no plot) and it was nothing more than ordinary beginner mistakes. Easily corrected if someone had taken the time to politely help me. Rude people easily destroy my resolve. Developing a thick skin is one of the toughest chores I need to do connected with writing. You've got a handle on that because your confidence and self-assurance comes through loud and clear. You probably didn't let somebody calling your work garbage stop you (if anybody ever did). I gotta work on that.

[motormind]

Oh, gracious.

I'm not going to take offense at anything said. That's indeed the first page from my second novel written (seventh published). The first novel (not counting the Hardy Boys pastiche in my youth) has never seen the light of day. I should certainly hope that I've improved as an artist since then!


Do you want an honest reply or a diplomatic one? ;)

[euclid]

Under a cabbage patch? Someone buried you???

:D

Haven't you ever hard that expression? It's very common around here. Not sure exactly what it means, though. Sex education is a no-no here, so when kids ask: "Where did I come from, Dad?" they usually get the cabbage patch reply (or the one about the stork). :)

[smsarber]

smsarber, It wasn't a joke, but I meant no disrespect. I just don't go in much for that sort of setting.

Oh, I get ya. I didn't catch what you meant was setting. I blame all my faux pas on the happy delerium brought upon by the new baby.:)

Uncle Jim, sorry for being off-topic.

[MiltonPope]

Will you turn the page?

Yes, I'd turn the page. This page has the strengths and weaknesses of a certain kind of science-fiction adventure; the kind I like to read, then more or less forget. (Well, in recent years, more-or-less forgetting is universal.) For this kind of book, the potential stopping point is a few pages further in.

--Milton

[Ken Schneider]

Oh, gracious.

I'm not going to take offense at anything said. That's indeed the first page from my second novel written (seventh published). The first novel (not counting the Hardy Boys pastiche in my youth) has never seen the light of day. I should certainly hope that I've improved as an artist since then!

My unflinching egotism, though, may soon post the second and third pages. (I'm being slowed in this by my need to retype; no electronic copies exist in any form usable by me--the original was on 5.25" Atari floppy disks.)

If I were to delete anything, it would be off-topic chatter. We're talking about writing here.

You could always scan the pages and upload them. I wish I had the second book. The Long Hunt was awesome. I wonder, is the whole series still available?

[Blue Sky]

Thanks for showing old work and giving us a comparison, Jim. I thought it might be you, but was not sure. Look forward to the reading the rest. The difference between your latest novel and this first page is tre-men-dous. Congrats!

What a great spontaneous exercise! We showed ourselves our "doings." Honesty is not synonymous with rudeness. Perhaps try to share with tact, as if the writer had a six-gun on his or her hip?

I've learned the hard way, not meaning to hurt feelings. Although I tend to spot weaknesses easily, the writing is usually secondary. Our understanding of what we want to say often seems to be the biggest buggaboo.

[James D. Macdonald]

Still too much time on your hands?

Watch the story-telling and dialog in this silent classic, Pandora's Box (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpqLQqG3X64), starring the lovely Louise Brooks, directed by the great G. W. Pabst.

Plot and story, kids. Plot and story.

[euclid]

I don't have THAT much time on my hands!

[FOTSGreg]

Bumping ya'll back to the front page.

Uncle Jim, I've heard it said that "One damned thing after another is a perfectly good plot". I interpret that a couple of different ways - 1) That you can keep throwing things at your characters until a story happens, and 2) In the original vein (maybe) it can mean that having awful things happen to or chasing your characters, and those characters not being such nice people either, is also okay (especially in horror).

But what's your take on that comment?

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim posted this 4/13/2007: (#6 may help you)

Kurt Vonnegut offers advice on writing:

http://puppetmaker40.livejournal.com/326453.html
Some writing advice by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. on the subject of short stories from Bagombo Snuff Box
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0399145052/ref=nofollow/madhousemanor/)
1. Use the time of a total stranger in such a way that he or she will not feel the time was wasted.

2. Give the reader at least one character he or she can root for.

3. Every character should want something, even if it is only a glass of water.

4. Every sentence must do one of two things -- reveal character or advance the action.

5. Start as close to the end as possible.

6. Be a sadist. No matter how sweet and innocent your leading characters, make awful things happen to them -- in order that the reader may see what they are made of.

7. Write to please just one person. If you open a window and make love to the world, so to speak, your story will get pneumonia.

8. Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To heck with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.

[James D. Macdonald]

The other day I was down at the lumber yard (getting boards to fix the floor of my porch), when the young man who worked there worked up enough courage to ask a personal question.

"Mr. Macdonald," he said (for I have grown so old that the young address me thus), "Does it cost a lot of money to publish a book?"

"No," said I. "It doesn't cost anything. Publishers pay authors, not the other way around. If someone comes up and says, 'If you give me money I'll publish you,' that person is a scammer. Rely on it."

I gestured around the lumber yard. "You don't pay to work here, do you?" I asked.

And he was enlightened.

=================

I know all of you know it, but "How much did you pay to get published?" is a question that anyone who writes for a living hears all the darned time.