Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[euclid]

Hey Jim, that was post number 9,000 on this thread!

You must be weary of it by now, surely?

[James D. Macdonald]

"Start with dialogue?" Mary asked. Her fingers drummed on the table beside her computer keyboard.

"I think it's a bad idea," Judy replied. "It's too easy to do badly."

"Yes, but I'd do it well."

Birds flitted outside. Hummingbirds, hovering flower to flower, ignoring the feeders that Ruth had hung beside the windows to lure them nearer.

"That's what you said about starting your novel with a description of the weather," Judy said. "Remember how that turned out?"

"'It was foggy along the coast, highs near fifty with a 40% chance of showers in the afternoon, snow in higher elevations overnight,'" Ruth quoted wistfully. "l really thought I had something."

"You had something, all right," Judy said. "Just what it was, though...."

"What it was, was better than your second-person-present-tense exploration of coming-of-age-in-the-South," Ruth said, annoyed.

"I don't know why that couldn't sell," Judy says. "It's jam-packed with sex and magnolias." She leans forward in her chair, her pert bosom jutting even more noticeably. You turn away, embarrassed, yet oddly drawn to the mystery that her cleavage presents. The scents of honeysuckle and magnolia blend with the odor of high-school-minx-in-heat to make a heady olfactory brew.

"That wasn't exactly what the beta-readers said. Now about starting my novel with dialogue?"

"Do it if you must," Judy said. She poured a heavy shot of bourbon over the remains of the ice in her Old Fashioned glass. "The worst that it could do is suck."

See also:

Basic q: is starting a story with dialogue a no-no? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47059)

First line of first chapter: Dialogue? Description? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142990)

Starting a novel with dialogue (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20638)

Are dialogue-driven novels a bad idea? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2908300)

OK to start a novel with dialogue? (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113981)

Never Start with Dialogue (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61988)

===========

Originally posted here (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3637547&postcount=16) in Starting With Dialog
(http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143126)

[smsarber]

And just when I'd decided to start everything with dialogue from now on, crud!:)

[FOTSGreg]

"There's a war on damnit!" General McClellan said. "It'd be best if you get that in your head now."

I nodded in agreement though I didn't really feel it. "Yes, sir. But, if it please the General, would he please look at the plotting board?"

[TDGatt]

Dear Uncle Jim,

Why write? Why did I start? Should I stop? These seem to be the questions that plague my recent thought process. I’ve never written anything, hell I never read anything unless I had to. Personal things I could not get past caused me to start writing. It seemed a good way to put these things into prospective, prospective lead to unanswered questions and more writing. Writing then became a way for me to fill in the blanks of the unanswered questions. I thought to myself, “Would others like this story?” It seemed pretty neat to me so I kept writing. My imagination got the best of me and I starting writing two more different pieces. All three are completely different, one mainstream fiction, drama, one a comedy and the third futuristic. I think the stories are very imaginative, well thought out relative to plot and story line. Then I came across this web site. Started doing some research about writing and getting published and quickly got turned off of the idea. I don’t want to get caught up in the mess of trying to write for others and getting kicked in the teeth every time I turn around. I just want to write as a release from mundane reality.

You thread started with “Learning to write”, well it does not get more basic than “why write in the first place”. I just want someone to read what I have written so far, tell me I should not quit my day job and I will be fine with that… Ok I lied, I have to first complete my own story, then I will stop…

[Ken Schneider]

"Landed with a thud, and a danged good bit of wind," the drunk said. He tipped his bottle up and fell over backward onto the ground.
"I wonder if the thud sounded like that,Cliff. A spaceship in the park ought to be easy to see."

Cliff knelt down close to the drunk and lifted him to a sitting position. The old man's eyes rolled around twice before coming to a stop. He shook his head.
"Well, old fella' where's the ship if it landed here?" Cliff asked. The drunk pointed the the hand holding the bottle toward the center of the open space just beyond a stand of trees.
"Right over there, I tell ya'! No sooner did it land, then poof. It disappered."

I suppose if you wanted to start with dialogue, it better have a bit of a bite.

[euclid]

"There's a war on damnit!" General McClellan said. "It'd be best if you get that in your head now."

I nodded in agreement though I didn't really feel it. "Yes, sir. But, if it please the General, would he please look at the plotting board?"

What is this? Catch 22, maybe?

"Landed with a thud, and a danged good bit of wind," the drunk said. He tipped his bottle up and fell over backward onto the ground.
"I wonder if the thud sounded like that,Cliff. A spaceship in the park ought to be easy to see."

Cliff knelt down close to the drunk and lifted him to a sitting position. The old man's eyes rolled around twice before coming to a stop. He shook his head.
"Well, old fella' where's the ship if it landed here?" Cliff asked. The drunk pointed the the hand holding the bottle toward the center of the open space just beyond a stand of trees.
"Right over there, I tell ya'! No sooner did it land, then poof. It disappered."

This sounds familiar, but I can't place it...

[euclid]

I watched "The Incredible Hulk" followed by "Terminator 3" and an episode of "Burn Notice". What did they all have in common?

EXCITEMENT.

Whatever I write next, it's going to be exciting to read.

[pictopedia]

"The game is over, uncle. She is going to marry Andrew. What can I do?"
"The heart does things for reasons the heart cannot understand. But whatever choice you make, let it come from that place"

Took two pieces of dialogue from the beginning of act 3 of a mainstream romantic comedy that in themselves already set up the main characters and the general story line. I wonder if anyone ever started a novel on such a direct, obvious act 3 high note and got away with it? Does anybody know? And if yes, how did it go on from there?

[PenDragon]

What is this? Catch 22, maybe?

Nope, first line (paragarpagh too) of Catch 22 is . . .


It was love at first sight.

[Blue Sky]

"Modulate your hooters!"

Clank! Cyborg units leapt to their feet, their hooters' amazing gyrations slowing inexorably to attention.

Captain Hooter, their disingenuous commander, issued his next amazing salvo.

"Ginormous spin pods sighted in the Hooters sector. Prep for five minute launch recall and stand fast."

Cyborg ennui thus cleverly eliminated, Weasel Hooter--Weeze--anticipated cutting a sumptuous swath through their ranks.

"Cyborg Kelly. Follow me." Smiling on the way to his quarters, grateful for usufruct, Weeze thought, Glad I'm not in the horse artillery.


Here's where this happened and why:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143016

[smsarber]

paragarpagh
What?
:Shrug:

[James D. Macdonald]

You thread started with “Learning to write”, well it does not get more basic than “why write in the first place”.

If you don't know, I can't help you.

Also: while you may not know, if you aren't writing, you aren't writing.

[smsarber]

What does the question "Why write in the first place" have to do with learning the craft of writing? That's a philosophical question, and one answered by most writers as, "Because I have to."

Just my tarnished opinion.

[PenDragon]

What?
:Shrug:
It's like a paragraph just typed faster. :D

[TDGatt]

All I was looking for was some encouragement. Guess I should have come right out and asked for it.

Is a writer still a writer if no one wants to read his writing? I think a rose is still a rose if no one is there to look at it…

Lift as you climb my friends or the top is lonely as hell…

[Rushie]

Dear Uncle Jim,

Why write? Why did I start? Should I stop? These seem to be the questions that plague my recent thought process. I’ve never written anything, hell I never read anything unless I had to. Personal things I could not get past caused me to start writing. It seemed a good way to put these things into prospective, prospective lead to unanswered questions and more writing. Writing then became a way for me to fill in the blanks of the unanswered questions. I thought to myself, “Would others like this story?” It seemed pretty neat to me so I kept writing. My imagination got the best of me and I starting writing two more different pieces. All three are completely different, one mainstream fiction, drama, one a comedy and the third futuristic. I think the stories are very imaginative, well thought out relative to plot and story line. Then I came across this web site. Started doing some research about writing and getting published and quickly got turned off of the idea. I don’t want to get caught up in the mess of trying to write for others and getting kicked in the teeth every time I turn around. I just want to write as a release from mundane reality.

You thread started with “Learning to write”, well it does not get more basic than “why write in the first place”. I just want someone to read what I have written so far, tell me I should not quit my day job and I will be fine with that… Ok I lied, I have to first complete my own story, then I will stop…

I went through a phase of not wanting to "get caught up in the mess of trying to write for others" when I first looked into what it takes to get published. Many years of believing I had no chance, it wasn't worth it, etc. etc. But if you keep finding writing enjoyable, and it seems for you, enlightening, and a release, then keep doing it. One day you may want to take a second look at what it takes to get published. The more you learn about it the more you realize that people who get published are not necessarily genius, or really lucky. Rather, they simply learn how to write well and then learn the channels to get through on the road to publication. It isn't magic. But it is something you need to work hard at. You don't have to decide today that you must write for others. Just write for yourself. The rest will come in time if it is right for you.

[smsarber]

It's like a paragraph just typed faster. :D
:tongue

[Ken Schneider]

All I was looking for was some encouragement. Guess I should have come right out and asked for it.

Is a writer still a writer if no one wants to read his writing? I think a rose is still a rose if no one is there to look at it…

Lift as you climb my friends or the top is lonely as hell…


Of course a writer is a writer if no one reads their work.

You write because it's fun to you to write.

I like reading my own writing, it's fun to me, it keeps me entertained, writing that is.

You write because you love to write.

You have a one in one bazillion of a chance to be famous and make bunches of money writing.

Discouraged yet? If you are, you are not a writer.

[James D. Macdonald]

Being a writer is defined by the act of writing.

[FOTSGreg]

euclid, Sorry, that was just something off the top of my head typed quickly to show that a story can start off with dialogue.

TDGatt wrote, Started doing some research about writing and getting published and quickly got turned off of the idea. I don’t want to get caught up in the mess of trying to write for others and getting kicked in the teeth every time I turn around. I just want to write as a release from mundane reality.

IMNSHO your best bet might be to start writing a journal or diary. No one else has to see it, no one else has to read it, no one else even has to know about it. You say you "don't want to get caught up in the mess of trying to write for others and getting kicked in the teeth" so I seriously doubt you'd respond well to rejection and rejection happens. It's part of the lifestyle and profession and craft.

You write to please yourself first, a few friends a little while later, and finally for money (to paraphrase a famous quote).

[smsarber]

I'll take that one step further: We write because we have to. Whether it's a page a day, or ten, writing is an absolute in our lives.

[Manix]

I've given this some thought and have come to the conclusion that I must be a perfectionist. For years, I put my dream of writing on hold because I was afraid of failure. I thought, if I never stick my neck out there, I'll never get my head lopped off. I'll never know if I would have succeeded, so I'm safe. Trouble is, I was miserable. I had an idea in my head that had been there for 26 years and I was just letting it sit there, deluding myself into thinking I was a writer because of that.

I always, always, always had the dream of seeing my name in print--ever since I could remember.

I am still not published, and I'm still working at my craft. I've sent out queries and gotten rejections.

But now I know in my heart of hearts, published or not, that I truly AM a writer.

[smsarber]

But now I know in my heart of hearts, published or not, that I truly AM a writer.
:PartySmil:TheWave::PartySmil

Yes you are!

[Neversage]

Hi, everyone. Back after a week of vacation.

Regarding the first page a little ways back: I would turn the page skeptically. It was probably as close to the line as I've been in a while on the first page. It was written well enough, so I would give page two a chance to make up for page one.

Also under threat from my sister, I read the entire Twilight series during the last week. I honestly have to admit that I really enjoyed it once I started skimming some of the over-dramatic teenage girl content. Then she made me watch the movie, and now I understand why people hate it. The movie was terrible, but the books by themselves are, in my opinion, very good.

Did that bird just oink?

[Blue Sky]

Did that bird just oink?

The birds are oinking here too, so I know a gander into Twilight is coming. Thanks for the soundings from your journey. I'll steel myself and dive into the used bookstore.

[Blue Sky]

I should have known by their Death's Head Hussar shakos (with a fictitious emblem, of course).

Girl Genius is a Ruritanian Zombie Romance! Holy smokes did I have a good laugh at that one. Ha! The Ruritanian part hit me yesterday and the zombie aspect this morning. I was enjoying the story too much to see. The word that comes about the comic is "cute." Kids can read it, but the depth is there for adults as well. Nice work, quite well done in imho.

It's great to watch author and artist skills improve and polish as you said, Jim. Suspenseful storytelling kept the ball rolling and now everything has moved up to that level. The slow-motion, time lapse photographic study of a six-and-a-half year career is such a pertinent and useful example.

The biggest thing I've learned so far about serial writing: If you goof, grab the reader and keep going. Don't look back. Works like a charm.

Lots of great stuff. The ditty I posted to show that I would certainly start a novel with dialog, my novel, and my other work are rumbling and expanding into a big something or other. Started doodling during work breaks on a pocket-sized pad that has lain dormant in my truck's center console since 1997 or so.

So that's why it was hanging around. :snoopy:

Great fun! Thanks again everybody.

[smsarber]

I just finished a story from a challenge set forth by Uncle Jim, the original challenge was for Rushie and then Blue Sky, but I like a challenge as well.
Here's the link (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143746). The original question was about plot generators, and since there is a thread about that already I won't go into it much here except to say: A point was made that you might not care about characters in a story derived from a plot generator. Uncle Jim answered with: write the story, see if you care about your characters when you are finished (very paraphrased). I can say that I cared about my characters the moment I named them. Then they were mine. Who cares where the idea for their existence came from, they're your babies when you give them life.

[Blue Sky]

Actually, the general assignment was for everybody and the specific assignment was for BlueLucario. She started that thread, which until I posted, I had not read.

But if her assignment appeals to us, why not give it a whirl?

I agree with you on the generated plots and wherever else ideas come from. That's my experience too.

Every plot was used by oral storytellers long before we started using writing as we know it today. That certainly doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for reading or writing.

[smsarber]

Sorry--too many 'Blue's';)

[euclid]

Every plot was used by oral storytellers long before we started using writing as we know it today.

This is such a sweeping statement and I don't believe a word of it.

For example, tell me when the plot of Perfume by Patrick Susskind was used by oral storytellers before writing started.

[smsarber]

I believe what was meant was that there are no inherently new ideas. Everything has been done before, in one way or another. DaVinci didn't have the technology for helicopters, yet he drew plans for one. Samuel Clemens wrote about time travel in the nineteenth century--would you have expected people to think of time travel in days before television and radio? Perfume, while I have no idea what that book is, surely has a plot similar to something else from the past.

[euclid]

I believe what was meant was that there are no inherently new ideas. Everything has been done before, in one way or another. DaVinci didn't have the technology for helicopters, yet he drew plans for one. Samuel Clemens wrote about time travel in the nineteenth century--would you have expected people to think of time travel in days before television and radio? Perfume, while I have no idea what that book is, surely has a plot similar to something else from the past.

Perhaps that's what he meant, but I reject that notion too, as utterly useless, meaningless and unhelpful. I mean, you might as well say: "Oh, so your book has people in it, doing stuff? Well of course that's been done before, thousands of times."

Perfume is a story about a man in seventeenth (I think) century Europe, born into abject poverty, who has a gift with smells, becomes a master perfumer and creates the ultimate perfume. He is also a mass murderer, as a side effect of his obsession.

It's a wonderful book.

H. G. Wells wrote about time travel. So what? Does that mean that no one else can write original stuff about time travel? Poppycock!

[smsarber]

Euclid, you are totally missing the point. The point is not that "it's been done, so don't bother," it is, "it's been done, now do it better, your way."

[smsarber]

I had left my thought unfinished somehow... Samuel Clemens wrote of time travel in the days before technology, and you might think people wouldn't think of things in those days, but it was surely thought of, and stories told about it, centuries before.

[RJK]

Clemens took people from the 19th century to a story about the 12th century. He had them interact with fictional characters from other stories.

H.G. Wells, Took people to a speculative future, a place made from his imagination. There's a big difference.

[Neversage]

I think that nearly--and I'll say nearly to be safe--any story can be broken into plot pieces. Important events or concepts. Each of these pieces has likely been done before. What makes it unique is which of them and how you combine to make your story.

My story is a compilation of hundreds of things, but I never intended it to be such, I just wrote about what I knew and what interested me. It's original as a whole, but each part by itself may no be so much so.

[Blue Sky]

"He" is back briefly. Wow, we've finally come to life again. Yes, that was the meaning smsarber. Thanks.

This is such a sweeping statement and I don't believe a word of it.

Great! Groups of people with beliefs end up killing other people in proof of those beliefs. Count me out of that charade.

Perhaps that's what he meant, but I reject that notion too, as utterly useless, meaningless and unhelpful...Poppycock!

Whatever works. That's the bottom line isn't it? I'm talking about the fundamental storyline. I too used to rail at such notions, but I can see the limited number of plots. What's a body to do?

In my view, it's incredible how we spin countless fresh and original yarns over such a small set of plots. Jim's study and practice of plots shows in Land of Mist and Snow. It's a tight, taught read. But I haven't read anything similar to that book. Just means I haven't. I'm sure there is something else along those lines out there. In any case, LoMaS is an original work.

Of course we can each write original material. Homogenized we are not, unless we allow such. I'm with you euclid. I shared your view years ago. However, experience has shown me the other side of the coin.

[euclid]

Never mind all that trivial stuff. I worked out today that, if Maestrowork stopped posting today, and I kept going at my usual rate, it would take me 30 years and 4 months to catch up with him! Of course he's showing no signs of stopping or even slowing down, so in 30 years time I will be even further behind than I am now. It's like the expanding universe!

I guess he's a supernova and I'm just a shooting star!

[callalily61]

[delurking]

I found Uncle Jim's 2002 novel The Apocalypse Door at a huge used book sale. I'm on chapter 4 now. Reading it is like my own private class in how to plot, how to write 3-D characters, how to show action, how to plant clues... I could keep going. Uncle Jim is such a darned good writer that I'm still interested, even though most of the book is in 1st, and I really, really dislike 1st.

:Hail:

ETA: And his voice is just like his voice in his posts here. :D I feel like a friend was telling me a cool story.

[relurking]

[euclid]

[delurking]

I found Uncle Jim's 2002 novel The Apocalypse Door at a huge used book sale. I'm on chapter 4 now. Reading it is like my own private class in how to plot, how to write 3-D characters, how to show action, how to plant clues... I could keep going. Uncle Jim is such a darned good writer that I'm still interested, even though most of the book is in 1st, and I really, really dislike 1st.

:Hail:

ETA: And his voice is just like his voice in his posts here. :D I feel like a friend was telling me a cool story.

[relurking]

What's it about? Is it SF?
And how many pages?

[callalily61]

What's it about? Is it SF?
And how many pages?

I'm at work, so I can't give you page count, sorry. It's not a doorstop--maybe 250 pp?

It's about the modern-day Knights Templar, with a MC who is something like Mike Hammer, if Hammer was nicer, and a priest to boot. There's a supernatural element just starting.

So far my favorite part (SPOILER!) is the Poor Clare assassins. :D Probably because I used to be a Franciscan, although not a Poor Clare. Knew a couple, though, and they didn't dress anything like in Jim's book or carry knives and guns. :eek:

[smcc360]

I also liked The Apocolypse Door. The moody cover hooked me, and anything with killer nuns is a win, since it reminds me of parochial school. I heard a rumor that a sequal is in the works, too.

[callalily61]

Oh, come on, I never killed any of the little monsters when I was a nun. Just scared them into submission. :e2teeth:

[Duncan J Macdonald]

I'm at work, so I can't give you page count, sorry. It's not a doorstop--maybe 250 pp?

It's about the modern-day Knights Templar, with a MC who is something like Mike Hammer, if Hammer was nicer, and a priest to boot. There's a supernatural element just starting.

So far my favorite part (SPOILER!) is the Poor Clare assassins. :D Probably because I used to be a Franciscan, although not a Poor Clare. Knew a couple, though, and they didn't dress anything like in Jim's book or carry knives and guns. :eek:
Far be it for me to flog a sibling's work (flog flog), but if you liked Apocalypse Door you're sure to love The Confessions of Peter Crossman available from Lulu via a link from Uncle Jim's very own web site (flog flog).
Just scroll down to the bottom.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a 'fun nun with a gun' running around.

[euclid]

Lulu: That's a POD site isn't it? Don't tell me Jim has used a POD to publish!

[smcc360]

That's great. I had no idea the sequal was out already. I'll go to the site and check it out now.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Lulu: That's a POD site isn't it? Don't tell me Jim has used a POD to publish!

Re-publish, actually. Confessions is a compilation of three Peter Crossman short stories that all had seen commercial publication, and their rights had been returned IAW standard contract revision clauses.

The following information is from the Internet Speculative Fiction Database (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Debra%20Doyle)

Stealing God First published in Tales of the Knights Templar, ed. Katherine Kurtz; Warner Aspect, 1995.

Selling the Devil First Published in On Crusade: More Tales of the Knights Templar (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?NCRSMPLR1998), (1998, Katherine Kurtz (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Katherine_Kurtz), Aspect / Warner Books, 0-446-67339-0

Sleeping Kings First Published in Crusade of Fire: Mystical Tales of the Knights Templar (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?CRSDFFRMYS2002), (Dec 2002, Katherine Kurtz (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Katherine_Kurtz), Warner Books, 0-446-61090-9

[Duncan J Macdonald]

That's great. I had no idea the sequal was out already. I'll go to the site and check it out now.
Not the sequel. Confessions is the three prior Crossman short stories collected into a single chap book. (flog flog)

I'm waiting for the sequel myself. There's this one scene that I've heard tell of that I really want to see in print. (And no, as far as I'm aware I don't feature in the novel at all -- that resemblance to any persons living or dead thing.)

Uncle Jim's Web Site, in case you've lost the url, is linked here (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/).

[callalily61]

I keep threatening my kids that I'm going to make them the Redshirts in my next book. That's as far as I go with inserting people I know into my work. :)

[James D. Macdonald]

Apocalypse Door is being reissued in paperback this coming December. Pre-order now and beat the rush! (Flog flog floggity-flog flog flog.)

"Stealing God" has been reprinted in several anthologies, and in my little chap book.

[callalily61]

ETA: *whew* Thank you.

And I knew there was no such thing as privacy anymore eons ago, when I did back-end database research and bank takeover work. I tell my parents this and they still don't believe me. :Shrug:

[James D. Macdonald]

If y'all want to put up that sig widget yourself (or put it on your web page, or whatever), you can get it here: http://www.danasoft.com (callalily61--only you can see that you're logging in from work. Everyone else sees tomorrow's lottery numbers.)


Duncan: Which scene would that be? I'd hate to have cut it in the final draft if you're waiting for it.

[callalily61]

LOL on "tomorrow's lottery numbers".

[Duncan J Macdonald]

If y'all want to put up that sig widget yourself (or put it on your web page, or whatever), you can get it here: http://www.danasoft.com (callalily61--only you can see that you're logging in from work. Everyone else sees tomorrow's lottery numbers.)


Duncan: Which scene would that be? I'd hate to have cut it in the final draft if you're waiting for it.
That would be Satan and Peter discussing flattery.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

LOL on "tomorrow's lottery numbers".
I was looking over your shoulder -- after tomorrow, I am so buying a private island.

[callalily61]

I was looking over your shoulder -- after tomorrow, I am so buying a private island.

My dad flies Cessnas and we have GPS--I am so crashing your party. :D

[Blue Sky]

Jim, I've noticed how easy it is to convey flashbacks and reminiscence in a comic. In Girl Genius it's done in monotone. I don't recall how I've seen it done in black and white, perhaps off-frame tags?

Do you have anything to say regarding the written equivalent? The reason I ask is that the color verses monocrome nature in a comic shows so transparently, while standing out like a sore thumb. I had never considered written recall as being so different from the main body, but actually, it is quite jarring if not done well. Unless, of course, that is the desired effect.

Thanks.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

My dad flies Cessnas and we have GPS--I am so crashing your party. :D
Note Bene: For all of you trying to horn in on my Private Island in posts and rep point comments: What exactly do you not grok about private?

<grumble grumble Gosh Darn Kids>

[callalily61]

Note Bene: For all of you trying to horn in on my Private Island in posts and rep point comments: What exactly do you not grok about private?

<grumble grumble Gosh Darn Kids>

Pfft. Privacy is a distant memory once the little monsters invade your life, no?

And those were *my* future winning lottery numbers you Bogarted, so you shouldn't be surprised at a certain Mistress of Evil appearing on your sandy beach.

Men. Think even a whole island is the equivalent of *their* chair.

[James D. Macdonald]

There are lots of ways to show out-of-sequence scenes in novels. The big question is why do you want to do 'em? Strict chronology should only be broken for the very best of reasons.

Coming right out and saying, "Four years earlier...." is probably the easiest. Time/date/place tags in chapter headings are another common trick.

[smsarber]

Thanks for showing us that Big Brother is always watching... But who knew Big Brother's name was Uncle Jim, not Sam? LOL

And now that you've replaced the widget we can go about our daily lives and forget all about it. Back to plotting (world domination) my next story (about the overthrow of civilization) and cooking pancakes (with plastique instead of maple syrup).

[Blue Sky]

There are lots of ways to show out-of-sequence scenes in novels. The big question is why do you want to do 'em? Strict chronology should only be broken for the very best of reasons.

Yes, only for the very best of reasons. I don't mess with readers without cause. Glad they showed up in the first place.

Coming right out and saying, "Four years earlier...." is probably the easiest. Time/date/place tags in chapter headings are another common trick.

Yes. And in addition to and beyond the easy ways? I tend to address the fluidity of time, place, and consciousness often, so for times I break chronology, any new tools or fresh looks at the tried and true would be welcome companions. Any examples?

Also, do you ever shift the texture of the writing, as a monochrome is to color? Thinking about it, I realize that I've done it, but I don't recall where I've read this effect. So many books over so many years.

On that aspect, I had positive feedback on the change of texture. In that case, I switched directly from thinking while sitting in a sweat to speaking internally from a former life as a Native American woman, re-living a salient experience. It worked nicely, surprising me. (Whew! You know?) The easy part was the fact that it was a change of speaker. I'm trying to recall how or whether I've shifted the writing for same speaker recall. I will now, surely. At a minimum, the mood would often be different.

Thanks again.

[James D. Macdonald]

In one of my own works, I went from first person to third person for the flashback sequences.

[cooeedownunder]

In one of my own works, I went from first person to third person for the flashback sequences.

I think that works well, but I have yet to read one that went from 3rd to first, but I guess that would work just the same, except that I am thinking because 1st is so very close, that after hearing third, the reader would be wanting to hear more of that 1st voice.

[vox]

In one of my own works, I went from first person to third person for the flashback sequences.


Ahh, yes...
In Country
ca. 1980

And very nicely done, I might add. Reading it right now.

[SilverPhoenix]

I think POV change always needs a really good reason or to be used for a certain effect/goal. I don't think changing to 3rd makes the reader miss the 1st or anything.

I was reading American Gods today and skipped about 10 pages because of a POV change...it was like a strange mix of a distant third and ominescent and I didn't like it one bit.

[smsarber]

How can you skip ten pages and still know what's going on? In my mind, either you suffer through a part you don't care for, or you stop reading. Skipping ten pages seems like you'd be stuck in limbo for at least a few pages more where you pick back up. But that's just me, and I'm a glutton for punishment--so I suffer through as much as I can.

[SilverPhoenix]

depends what the 10 pages are about :) it was a deviation from the POV so it was more like an interruption to me -- when it went back to the normal character it was just the original story continued. it was probably foreshadowing or something? if i get confused later i can force myself to go back and read it.

I suffered through a 100 pages of a Patterson book once - then I gave up. I gave up on that Dragon Tattoo book too. Sometimes a girl gets just a little fussy :tongue There's a lot of books out there to read, so I don't have the best attention span if one's not quite pulling its weight.

[euclid]

I gave up on American Gods after about 10 chapters.

Reading Kurt Vonnegut now.

Cat's Cradle
Slaughterhouse Five.

Thanks for the suggestion, Steve.

[smsarber]

That's valid. James Patterson is one of my favorite writers, and I literally gobble up his work, and I have a seperate question for the masses about him But first, I will say this, yes, there are an endless supply of books, so you can't spend too much time on something that just isn't right for you. I will sometimes skim over some paragraphs, but I've just personally never skipped pages--to each his/her own. If it's like you said, and when you got back to the original POV it was like you never left the story, then that's a forseeable action. Like how some people skip Prologues, which I don't understand because they are a part of the story as a whole. But we've discussed that before.

Now, James Patterson. I read recently that he doesn't write his own books anymore. He says he has too many ideas and not enough time. So he has a team of writers that write for him. He gives the ideas, and they are written by this team. If you look at his newer books, they're always: James Patterson and Howard Roughan, or James Patterson and Maxine Paetro. I don't think he does this with the Alex Cross series, though. So, what do you guys think of a writer who doesn't write his own work, at least not all of it? And do I not have all the information on this?

PS: I read this in a friends blog on MySpace, Writer Leonard Hilley Jr. Author of Predators of Darkness. He said it was in the Jan. Issue of The Writer(?) magazine. I have to check if that was the publication.

[SilverPhoenix]

Hm sounds like a rumour I've heard. Personally I find it off-putting that a writer would do that. I mean, it's not really the ideas that matter so much - it's how they get written down on the page that counts. I can't imagine the stories are as good if he's not writing them. And I doubt his fans would be too happy about it.

I used to really like his books; some of the very old ones I read when younger. The last one I read that I couldn't get into years back was called 'the spider' or something like that - and I never read anything by him again since.

btw~ I never skip prologues. I mean, they're usually so short it takes 5 minutes tops to read them. No point in skipping that.

[smsarber]

That would be "Along Came a Spider," in my opinion a great book, made into a great movie with Morgan Freeman as Alex Cross, same as "Kiss the Girls." But I think James writes a portion of the books, like a very detailed outline, then the other writer fills it in, then James finishes the product. Whatever the case, he still has an astronomically huge fanbase, including me, and I still read every book he puts out. I personally really respect his program for getting kids into reading.

Euclid, glad you credit me for the Vonnegut suggestion, but it was really Uncle Jim who should get the credit for that... I was only reposting one of his posts. But what the hell--I'll take the credit;)

[MiltonPope]

So, what do you guys think of a writer who doesn't write his own work, at least not all of it? And do I not have all the information on this?



When I was a teenager in the '60s, Ellery Queen set me on fire (yes, I was that kind of geek). I only recently found out that this was just the time when he (they) started farming the books out. It didn't matter much.

Leslie Charteris did the same thing with the Saint books, another favorite.

Dick Francis has been pretty good for decades, but through the '90s his books were golden. Then his wife died, and since then he's back to being pretty good. It seems she was heavily involved in his books for awhile.

There have to be more, but these are some I'm familiar with.

--Milton

[hshd]

Mr. Macdonald,

Just wanted to say hi and thank you. Been lurking for a while and read all the posts in this thread. Alot of good and useful information.

[smsarber]

FOTSGreg, you might be able to find an answer in the "Index to the Learn Writing..." thread.

But we did discuss it, I don't remember when, it couldn't have been that long ago, though. I believe it boiled down to preferrence and what works. I personally like italics for thought sequences.

[smsarber]

When I was a teenager in the '60s, Ellery Queen set me on fire (yes, I was that kind of geek). I only recently found out that this was just the time when he (they) started farming the books out. It didn't matter much.

Leslie Charteris did the same thing with the Saint books, another favorite.

Dick Francis has been pretty good for decades, but through the '90s his books were golden. Then his wife died, and since then he's back to being pretty good. It seems she was heavily involved in his books for awhile.

There have to be more, but these are some I'm familiar with.

--Milton

I'm not surprised, the more I think about it. If you have a lot of ideas, and writers of the caliber needed to produce your work, it kind of makes sense. And with Patterson, I think he saves the Alex Cross books for himself, and gets the help on others, like the Womens Murder Club series.

[SilverPhoenix]

There are three ways to denote thought:

1. the 'thought' tag

2. italics

3. nothing

- you shouldn't be using italics AND tag.

Different things work for different novels. Some authors get away with nothing at all denoting the thought because of how their writing flows. Just use what works for you - anything is acceptable as long as there is clarity. What matters is that the reader knows it is a thought or internal dialogue. Redundancy issues will be solved by simply not having too much internal dialogue. If you have so much it becomes redundant, you might as well be writing in 1st person.

[smsarber]

I agree--not both. I know that I was doing that early on. You know, I may have even done the whole trifecta: "This is just crazy," he thought.

Italics are good if you don't have other uses for them, like maybe dream sequences. Then I would use the "he thought" tags. I will see if I can find where we discussed it. Don't worry though, whatever you do now can be changed in subsequent drafts. You may read through your WIP later and say, "What the hell, I'm gonna change the thought lines," and that might just be the icing on the cake... Hey! It could happen;)

[smsarber]

Try this (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125379), Fots. It's not from the LWwUJ thread, but has some good info.

[Blue Sky]

Thanks for the info on breaking chronology. I hadn't thought of it in terms of pov, for some reason. I'll look at your example Jim and I'll be alert to others.

On portraying thoughts: My favorite is denoting by writing flow, but that hasn't always been practical thus far.

A twist on thoughts in italics is use of a different font. Three books I've read that focused on communication with animals and other non-humans used this successfully.

The publisher will have the last word on readable formatting, of course.

[James D. Macdonald]

Re: showing thoughts.

I've seen well-done examples of all the possible styles, from not marking thoughts in any way (neither tags nor italics), to nailing them down (tags and italics) with variations of all kinds in between (including, but not limited to, marking off thoughts with asterisks rather than quote marks).

The rules are: 1) Don't confuse the readers, and 2) Be consistent.

Be guided by your ear and your writer's sensibility. You are the artist.

In practical terms, as a new writer, what I'd do is find a book that I admired, see how the author of that book showed thoughts, and do likewise.

[Ken Schneider]

In the novel, The Long Hunt, the authors used asterisks, versus quotation marks when two people spoke to each other in Trade talk.

Is that also a common use for noting language difference?

[James D. Macdonald]

Is that also a common use for noting language difference?

Dunno if it's common, but that's how we did it, and the editor didn't object.

[James D. Macdonald]

A twist on thoughts in italics is use of a different font. Three books I've read that focused on communication with animals and other non-humans used this successfully.


One thing I always think about is, "How will this work if it's a Book On Tape, or in Braille?

[Cyia]

There was a series of kids' books that used bolded italics for mental communication. Drove me nuts trying to read that - the letters bled together.

[Rufus Coppertop]

Hi James,

I've been reading this thread up to about page 17, to learn more about plotting. I've already gained a lot but a slight peeve comes up.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486229238/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">Celtic Art: The Methods of Construction</a> by George Bain.

This sort of thing does not work when I cut and paste it into the URL bar and there's nothing to click on. I find that I have no way of looking at the thing you're referring to as an example.

A question about story arcs.

When you said that one should start a second arc before the climax of the first arc and then substitute the climax of the second arc for the first arc, does that mean that the climax of the second arc obliterates the entire post-climactic section of the first arc?

Is it basically a hijacking of the first arc by an overwhelmingly powerful second one?

[smsarber]

Rufus, just click right on this link (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486229238/ref=nosim/madhousemanor). There, is that better?:)

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi James,

I've been reading this thread up to about page 17, to learn more about plotting. I've already gained a lot but a slight peeve comes up.



Worked great two (or was it three?) software and hosting-service changes ago. Just cut from the http:// to just before the next quote mark (in this case, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486229238/ref=nosim/madhousemanor ) and paste it in your navigation bar, then hit your Enter key.



Is it basically a hijacking of the first arc by an overwhelmingly powerful second one?

No.

Suppose the first arc is aaaaaaaaAAA (where AAA is the climax). And suppose the second arc is bbbbbbbBBB (where BBB is the climax).

The finished story with the surprise twist ending goes aaaaaaaabbbbbbbAAA.

(Q. How many writers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A. Two. One to screw it nearly all the way in, the the second to add the final surprising twist.)

[K. Taylor]

I had this 1. the 'thought' tag in my story, as I was taught in school that's what single quotes are there for, and an editor told me to change those sections to italics to be industry compliant.

But that's not entirely true?

[SilverPhoenix]

I just meant as in - he thought, she thought - by that.

single quotes ' ' and speech marks " " can both be found used for dialogue in books. therefore, it wouldn't be pratical to use single quotes to denote thought.

and I remember being taught that in school too haha.

[euclid]

Suppose the first arc is aaaaaaaaAAA (where AAA is the climax). And suppose the second arc is bbbbbbbBBB (where BBB is the climax).

The finished story with the surprise twist ending goes aaaaaaaabbbbbbbAAA.


What happened to BBB, the climax of the second arc? Shouldn't that be in there somehwere?

[Ken Schneider]

And CCC when you have to scrap the whole thing and start over.

[K. Taylor]

single quotes ' ' and speech marks " " can both be found used for dialogue in books. I've only seen single quote marks used for dialogue from Europeans. If you're writing for Americans.....

[James D. Macdonald]

What happened to BBB, the climax of the second arc? Shouldn't that be in there somehwere?

The point is that AAA replaces BBB, substitutes for it, and becomes it. The readers will say both, "Wow! I didn't see that coming!" and "Of course!"

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, Thanks for the answer. I decided yesterday to just trust my own ear and judgement regarding thought tags, but I appreciate your answer.

Sorry about the frustration yesterday, folks. I felt I was not getting consistent responses, which I should realize is natural with a thread and forum of this size, and that some had not understood my original intent (which was not about the use of italics or underlining, but rather about the use of "he/she thought" in accompaniment to italics or underlining - I try hard to follow Vonda McIntyre's guidelines in respect to formatting a ms).

My apologies for not being clearer and for getting frustrated.

[Blue Sky]

One thing I always think about is, "How will this work if it's a Book On Tape, or in Braille?

Me too. That points toward tags and writing flow, doesn't it?

Taking it one step futher, in my book, I used <these> marks for telepathic communication, but my primary beta reader (a multi-published author) questioned their abrupt feel in text. Hmm. I was looking for something on a standard keyboard that wasn't commonly used. <These> marks--arrows?--are used a lot to denote computer key strokes, but not much otherwise.

How about a LOT of telepathic communication? I still like the practical nature of the arrows, but I too would like to share with people who are blind or deaf. Braille would have the arrows and other written symbols, but books on tape are another story.

[Blue Sky]

euclid: What happened to BBB, the climax of the second arc? Shouldn't that be in there somehwere?

Isn't aaaaaaabbbbbbAAABBB an Arabian group? :)

[FOTSGreg]

Another question and this one regards dialogue that is unheard, as in telepathic or psychic contact between members of an alien race.

In one of my WIPs I have a very long sequence in which members of an alien race are involved in a conversation with each other that is more or less telepathic in nature. Right now it's all in italics, but I anticipate this is going to upset a typesetter/editor and possibly look really weird to a reader. Might it not be better just to portray this as normal dialogue in quotes?

Oops, I just noticed BlueSky's question above. Mine is essentially the same.

[Ken Schneider]

My first thought on telepathy conversation would be to set it up before the conversation starts.

I'd give it name Telespeech, or some such.


Eork used his powers of telespeech to keep the conversation with Heptop, secret.

[James D. Macdonald]

Will putting telepathic dialog in quotes confuse the reader?

[SilverPhoenix]

Personally I think it would, unless it was only two characters present and indicated they were talking telepathically.

Lately, novels are beginning to go a bit further with the use of strange fonts or methods, like The Knife Of Never Letting Go. I think it works okay, but it is a bit distracting. I like good ol' italics.


by the way, Uncle Jim, any recommendations for good research material on Faeries? Seelie Courts and that sort of thing. I haven't found much net-wise. I remember the Faerie Queens featuring in one of your books - and being pretty nicely done.

[motormind]

Will putting telepathic dialog in quotes confuse the reader?

Yes, but that could also be put to good use.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, Will putting telepathic dialog in quotes confuse the reader?

In my particular case, no. There are only 2 or 3 conversants and they're all the same species all "speaking" in the same manner.

I think I originally wrote it that way years ago because it was supposed to be strange and exotic. Today, it just looks weird (and maybe a little stupid - not to mention the notion that it might upset readers or typesetters (or even agents and/or editors reading it initially - which would give them an excuse to reject).

[Calliopenjo]

The Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/) has information on fairies.
Wikipedia's Lists of Fictional Things (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_fictional_things)might have something as well.
Wikipedia's List of Legendary Creatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures)

That's all the resources I have at the moment. Between the three of them there should some information that would be helpful.

Best of luck. ;)

[smsarber]

Is there a difference between a "faerie," and a "fairy?"

[ChristineR]

"Faerie" never means a gay male, but "fairy" does in certain contexts.

[Calliopenjo]

Faerie
also n., pl. -ies.
A tiny, mischievous, imaginary being; a fairy.
The land or realm of the fairies.Fairy
n., pl. -ies.
A tiny imaginary being in human form, depicted as clever, mischievous, and possessing magical powers.
Offensive Slang. Used as a disparaging term for a homosexual man.
Source: Answers.com

[smsarber]

"Faerie" never means a gay male, but "fairy" does in certain contexts.

Well, I knew that! ;)

[Dale Emery]

Is there a difference between a "faerie," and a "fairy?"

A fairy uses magic. A faerie uses magick.

[smsarber]

Okay, what's the difference between magic, and magick? and majick?

[Judg]

Magick is a spelling resuscitated by 20th century witches to distinguish from the magic of stage magicians. I'm not fond of the spelling myself, but that's what it's used for.

[James D. Macdonald]

by the way, Uncle Jim, any recommendations for good research material on Faeries? Seelie Courts and that sort of thing. I haven't found much net-wise. I remember the Faerie Queens featuring in one of your books - and being pretty nicely done.

Yes.

Facts On File
Encyclopedia of World Mythology and Legend

You should be able to find a copy in your local library.

After that, research. Go to libraries. Remember interlibrary loan. Keep your fantasy magic as strict as you would the tech in your science fiction. Everything happens for a purpose. Everything has a cost. Every advantage comes with a limitation.

For on-line sources:

Fairy and Folk Tales of the Irish Peasantry (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/yeats/fip/)
Edited and Selected by W. B. Yeats

(Yes, that William Butler Yeats.)

I first ran into that book in the library when I was in grade school, and it made a big impression.

Also on-line:

Teutonic Mythology (http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/index.php)
by Jacob Grimm

(Yes, that Jacob Grimm.)

I ran into this one in college.

[Calliopenjo]

Magic
n.
The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.
The charms, spells, and rituals so used.
The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.
A mysterious quality of enchantment: “For me the names of those men breathed the magic of the past” (Max Beerbohm). adj.
Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural: “stubborn unlaid ghost/That breaks his magic chains at curfew time” (John Milton).
Possessing distinctive qualities that produce unaccountable or baffling effects. tr.v., -icked, -ick·ing, -ics. To produce or make by or as if by magic.


Magick

n. An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.
[Variant of MAGIC (http://www.answers.com/topic/magic).]
magickal mag'ick·al adj.


Source: Answers.com

[smsarber]

Magick is a spelling resuscitated by 20th century witches to distinguish from the magic of stage magicians. I'm not fond of the spelling myself, but that's what it's used for.
I kind of figured it was something in that vein. I am writing in a variety of genres now, but I doubt I'll be delving much into faries(faeries) and magic(magick) enough to need all this specific info, but one never knows:).

[Dale Emery]

Okay, what's the difference between magic, and magick? and majick?

I have no idea. I also have no idea what the differences is between a fairy and a faerie. But I do know how to stir up crap, so I thought I'd try that.

[smsarber]

That's why we love you Dale.

[Rufus Coppertop]

Suppose the first arc is aaaaaaaaAAA (where AAA is the climax). And suppose the second arc is bbbbbbbBBB (where BBB is the climax).

The finished story with the surprise twist ending goes aaaaaaaabbbbbbbAAA.


Okay, so the bbb arc doesn't necessarily have a climax?


(Q. How many writers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A. Two. One to screw it nearly all the way in, the the second to add the final surprising twist.)

LOL and thanks.

[callalily61]

Reading one of Jim's books was, for me, an encapsulated lesson in everything he teaches. Truly, and not sucking up! :D I would've taken notes, but the action kept moving so darn fast I couldn't. :tongue

[euclid]

On a side note: is this thread still about something specific? Aside from Jim's self-promotion, I mean.

Ooooh, nasty! :)

[euclid]

Jim, I have a question.

I have a plot outline for my sequel nearly complete. With the outline I tried to make the plot EXCITING, and at one point I found myself looking for a cliff-hanger to end each chapter. I have quite a few, but not one for every chapter.

My Brother said the book might be formulaic, if it had a cliffy at the end of every chapter, and I think he is right. So what's the best policy on cliffys?

[SilverPhoenix]

Yes...

Thanks so much!

Ooh Yeats. Wasn't expecting that :) Looks interesting.

[smsarber]

motormouth, no it not about something specific. If it was, it'd be boring.

[Blue Sky]

Will putting telepathic dialog in quotes confuse the reader?

Yes as mentioned, in anything other than a simple exchange. In addition, when others are speaking, things get more confusing. I'll play with it.

Thanks.

motormind: There is a lot of cat waxing going on, at times, but I'm glad to have read the entire thread. I keep up on it, because it sits for awhile and then takes off.

[smsarber]

And when you have your own thread with your name as the header, well, I think you get where I'm going with that. Kudos to you for keeping it real, though. I get a laugh out of the "In it for the money" tagline every time;)

[Ken Schneider]

In the 4 years I've been around AW, I've never seen UJ sidetrack this thread for a non-writing subject, or material related to.

I have seen many guests and members come on this thread and sidetrack it though.

Anyway.

UJ, Can a writer create too much/many, (in trouble out of trouble in trouble, situations) in a book?

Does the reader need a rest from all the action and problems, or a relief period to regroup?

If so, is this relief period best used to create the next bit of trouble, backstory, subplot developement? i.e. as a way of moving the story along?

Thanks, Ken

[smsarber]

I won't field that question, Ken, except to say I don't think you can have too much action, defilement, agony, angst, etc... if you write it well.

I have a question of my own. This goes back to thoughts, tags, formatting: If the use of certain formatting will be up to the publisher, should we just go with what we "know" (coff) to be correct, knowing that they will reformat it if it isn't the way they do it? I've retrained myself to underline sections and words I wish to have italicised, though I know not all publishers require that anymore. Are there more things in formatting to keep in mind?

[Ken Schneider]

The formatting thing. A lot of guidelines I've submitted to tell you what they want. Underline not italics for thoughts.

I hate tags like, Herm shouted. Herm grumbled. Don't you?

I know those aren't the tags you're speaking about, at least I don't think you are. Just reminded me of that.

Isn't better to say.

Herm's right eye narrowed like it always did when he was upset. I knew he was serious. His left eye was twitching. He clenched his teeth, making his jaw muscles flex. He was staring right at me.
"I'm not going to asked you again," he said. I felt the hair rasie on the back of my neck. "I want my money by mid-night."

[Medievalist]

by the way, Uncle Jim, any recommendations for good research material on Faeries? Seelie Courts and that sort of thing. I haven't found much net-wise. I remember the Faerie Queens featuring in one of your books - and being pretty nicely done.

I'm not Uncle Jim, but my dissertation is about fairies and fairy folklore.

Look for books by Katherine Briggs. Be cautious using books by Lewis Spence and Thomas Keightley.

If you want Celtic mythology (the síd, and Tuatha de Dannan, etc.) versus pre-Victorian fairy folklore, that's a different thing altogether.

And for the love of all that's seelie, please don't do another re-telling of Tam Lin.

[smsarber]

Ken, yeah, I don't know know why I said tags. I meant the underlining, not italics, for any reason. And some other little things. What about bolding? And are semi-colons really not for use in dialogue?

[Calliopenjo]

Will putting telepathic dialog in quotes confuse the reader?

I've written a couple stories using telepathic dialog. I chose italics because telepathy is conveying thought without speech. My thoughts are written in italics so my telepathic messages are conveyed with italics.

Ex: What is it terran? Danube telepathically said, What is the matter?

Instead of:

Ex: "What is it terran?" Danbue telepathically said, "What is the matter?"

So will it confuse the reader?

In my opinion, it goes back to making a judgment call. Technically yes they said something so "quotes" should be used. On the other hand, it wasn't conveyed with speech but with thought instead so italics should be used.

I believe that in the end, it's the reader that decides if they like it in quotes or italics. That and whatever guidelines of a website or publishing house have.

My thoughts on the subject for what it's worth. (Half a penny at this rate.)

[James D. Macdonald]

My Brother said the book might be formulaic, if it had a cliffy at the end of every chapter, and I think he is right. So what's the best policy on cliffys?

Keep 'em relevant to plot, character, and theme.

And ... it isn't necessary to end every chapter on a cliff hanger. That's very Hardy Boys. What you do need is a reason for the reader to start the next chapter (other than out of idle curiosity...).

There's an art (as you might guess) to finding the right ending point for your chapters. (And recall that you don't need to have chapters at all.)


UJ, Can a writer create too much/many, (in trouble out of trouble in trouble, situations) in a book?


It's way easier to put in too little plot than too much.

If too much is happening, your editor will tell you.

But recall, too, that contrast is important. The quiet bits tell us what's loud. The fast bits tell us what's slow. The funny bits tell us what's sad.

Please be ware of do-loops. Actions that have no purpose other than filling pages.

If the use of certain formatting will be up to the publisher, should we just go with what we "know" (coff) to be correct, knowing that they will reformat it if it isn't the way they do it?

Follow the publisher's guidelines.

If not specified in the guidelines, follow standard manuscript format.

Okay, so the bbb arc doesn't necessarily have a climax?


Yes, it does have a climax, and the climax is AAA.

Yes, but that could also be put to good use.

Confusing your readers is almost never a good idea.

[smsarber]

It always falls back to "Follow the publisher's guidelines," doesn't it? But what I was getting at was, in production (1st thru 91st drafts), when you might not know the publisher's guidelines, what to do? Stay safe, and follow what we've learned here and in our own experience, I guess.

[James D. Macdonald]

You could write your manuscript in standard format (courier, one inch margins, etc.). I do. Or you could write in double-column triple-spaced 45 point Wired Caffeine Nervous Bold Italic, if that's what it takes for you to put words on paper.

No one sees your first draft but you.

[smsarber]

And my wife... I know, I know, but without her I probably wouldn't be writing. Of course, she doesn't care what margins, font, color I use. She just wants me to succeed. So she sees the first drafts, and usually helps me find my voice if I had lost it along the way.

[smsarber]

Okay, I know Courier New, and Times New Roman are standard, right? I've been using mostly Times New Roman, but which do you use? Just out of curiousness.;)

[James D. Macdonald]

I use Dark Courier 10, double spaced, one-inch margins, running head in the top right margin.

[vox]

Yes, it does have a climax, and the climax is AAA.



UJ, sorry to be so dense, but...do you mean that AAA is constructed in such a way that it satisfies both the aaaa and bbbb arcs?

[James D. Macdonald]

It substitutes for the BBB part entirely.

Observe, if you will, this Bill Cosby routine:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=4393284

Gur (n) cybg: Ovyy Pbfol jnagf gb fyrrc

Gur (o) cybg: Ovyy Pbfol'f jvsr guerngraf uvz jvgu ivbyrapr.

Gur rkcrpgrq (O) pyvznk: Ovyy'f jvsr jvyy npghnyyl cresbez ivbyrapr.

Gur (N) pbapyhfvba fhofvghgrq sbe O: Ovyy trgf gb tb onpx gb fyrrc.

[smsarber]

Now I feel dense... "running head?" (Heard of hookers losing teeth that way...)

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, I once asked how you saw your projects unfold in your mind, and you said you see it play out as a movie in your head. I'm finally getting to see things that way. Maybe I'm not as closed-minded anymore. I've always had a good imagination, but never really seen what I want to create with words as more than words... but as I improve as a writer, and can see more, my writing is improving by leaps and bounds. (Well, I think it is, anyway.) No real question here, just a pat-on-the-back observation.

[euclid]

Gur (n) cybg: Ovyy Pbfol jnagf gb fyrrc

Gur (o) cybg: Ovyy Pbfol'f jvsr guerngraf uvz jvgu ivbyrapr.

Gur rkcrpgrq (O) pyvznk: Ovyy'f jvsr jvyy npghnyyl cresbez ivbyrapr.

Gur (N) pbapyhfvba fhofvghgrq sbe O: Ovyy trgf gb tb onpx gb fyrrc.

Shouldn't that be fhofgvghgrq ?

[euclid]

There's an art (as you might guess) to finding the right ending point for your chapters. (And recall that you don't need to have chapters at all.)

It's way easier to put in too little plot than too much.

If too much is happening, your editor will tell you.

But recall, too, that contrast is important. The quiet bits tell us what's loud. The fast bits tell us what's slow. The funny bits tell us what's sad.


There's a lot in there.

1. I HATE books without chapters and books with long chapters.
2. I thought you said (in an earlier version of that post):

"It's harder to put in too little plot than too much." Meaning that it's easier to put together a book that's full of action, but has little room for other things, like characterization, humour, meaning, theme and meaningful exposition.

"It's easier to put in too little plot than too much," suggests a paucity of good plotting ideas.

3. Would that I had an editor!

4. The last point extracted from your post is key, of course.

I loved Bill Cosby's sketch.

[pictopedia]

"The writer's job is to be a troublemaker! Stir up as many levels of conflict and problems for your protagonist (hero) as you can. Let one set of problems grow out of another. And never, never, never solve a problem until you've raised at least two more. It is the unsolved problems that form the chain of promises that keeps the reader interested." - Ben Bova.

[pictopedia]

Basic plot tools that can be used to make a clear cut between scenes/chapters/acts etc and give the reader a reason to read on:
-there is an announcement that time has passed ('a week later')
-a termination of the dialog ('she left then')
-a shift in point-of-view character
-an external event ('the room exploded')

[euclid]

In all the years that I've been a subscriber to AW (nearly one year) I've never caught Mr. MacDonald actually online. How do you do that, Jim?

[motormind]

"It's harder to put in too little plot than too much." Meaning that it's easier to put together a book that's full of action, but has little room for other things, like characterization, humour, meaning, theme and meaningful exposition.


You can have an elaborate plot (e.g. a lot of backstory) but you don't have to tell the reader everything. It's good to leave readers in the dark about some stuff, so they have to fill in the missing parts with their own imagination.

[smsarber]

In all the years that I've been a subscriber to AW (nearly one year) I've never caught Mr. MacDonald actually online. How do you do that, Jim?
The famed Romulan cloaking device.

[James D. Macdonald]

Remember, plot =/= action.

Meaningless action, action that does not move the story forward, is as deadly as any other element that doesn't move the story forward.

The slush heaps are full of stories where nothing happens. Where at the end, everyone is still where they started. The literary equivalent of watching paint dry.

[K. Taylor]

Question:

Three-hundred-year-old, or 300-year-old? It starts getting tedious to fully spell out larger numbers....

[euclid]

300-year-old, imo. See:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/593/01/

[euclid]

Remember, plot =/= action.

Meaningless action, action that does not move the story forward, is as deadly as any other element that doesn't move the story forward.

I agree. Also, Plot =/= Backstory as suggested by someone here.

[vox]

It substitutes for the BBB part entirely.

Observe, if you will, this Bill Cosby routine:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=4393284




Great stuff! I think I get it. I mean, I see it clearly demonstrated in his routine, but it may take some experimentation for me to get it right on paper. It still seems like the climax to the b arc was in there, but it served as a vehicle for AAA to come in and knock the whole thing out of the park.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it. Or maybe it's a simple matter of semantics. Thanks so much for the info!

[James D. Macdonald]

Remember, in the Cosby routine, the b arc is pointing to actual physical violence as its climax. We never get that.

[vox]

Remember, in the Cosby routine, the b arc is pointing to actual physical violence as its climax. We never get that.


OK! You've finally drilled deeply enough to get through my thick head. I've got it now. Thanks for your patience! And thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[James D. Macdonald]

The biggest mistake you can make?

Replying in any manner whatsoever to a negative review.

[Calliopenjo]

Here is a link to Brain exercises:

http://esl.about.com/od/englishlessonplans/a/braingym.htm

For those who would like to exercise their mind as well as their body.:hi:

Thought it looked like fun when I received the email posting the link.

[Judg]

Uncle Jim, I've been reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War, and I'm finding it a great help in thinking strategically. I tried the chess thing, but I don't have anyone to play with, so that didn't go too far.

Have you read it? Found it to be useful for a writer?

[James D. Macdonald]

Yes, I've read Sun Tzu (hasn't everyone?). But as far as being useful to me as a writer, only in so far as it gives insight into human psychology. (Not that this is a small thing.)

If you find contemplating The Art of War helps you plot, by all means do so.

[Ruv Draba]

I've been reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War, and I'm finding it a great help in thinking strategically. I tried the chess thing, but I don't have anyone to play with, so that didn't go too far.By strategically, I assume that you mean how to turn a general direction into a set of steps. Here's another way to do it that may help:


Describe a character's direction, and how you'd know if it got there. (e.g. Sir Ronald Bravelock wants to discover the killer of Lord Fairbright, his liege. He'll know that he's got the killer if he obtains a confession)

Describe what's impeding getting there (E.g. Sir Ronald has no idea who the killer might be, he's never tried to find a murderer before, would have no idea how to make him confess if he did find him, and his wife Lady Bravelock is heavily pregnant and being very demanding)

List what assets and resources the character can bring to bear. (E.g. While normally meek, Sir Ronald is prone to fits of passion that make him incredibly strong -- especially when he sees bullying. He has a loyal friend Squire Gimley who's cynical but a good judge of character. The local herbalist Dame Trot has a crush on him and would do anything for him)

For each impediment, see if you can create a Situation of Opportunity in which the character can overcome one of his impediments. (E.g. while Sir Ronald has no idea how to find a killer, Dame Trot is a fund of wise folklore and might have some advice)

For each Opportunity, see if you can create a Condition of Threat to make it difficult to realise the opportunity (E.g. Lady Bravelock is the jealous type and her pregnancy has made her paranoid. If she gets whiff of Sir Ronald visiting Dame Trot, she'll hit the roof)

For each Opportunity and Threat, see if you can construct a scene that resolves them. The resolution of the scene might either achieve the goal or fail. In reaching that outcome, it might add more complications or add no complications. Wherever there's a failure or complications, see what Opportunities can correct them, and what Threats can make them worse. Then you can try to construct another scene to resolve them.

As the plot progresses update the character's Assets, Resources and Impediments as these will change. This will result in changes to Opportunities and Threats.
Now imagine that the killer (Duke Blackheart) learns that Sir Ronald is after him. He too has a Goal (get away with murder) with Recognition (Sir Ronald dies, gives up, or punishes the wrong person), and Impediments and Assets and Resources. Now you have a game of chess. As Sir Ronald gains Assets and Resources, the Impediments to Duke Blackheart increase. He'll want to capture/kill/neutralise Sir Ronald's Assets and Resources. As Sir Ronald gains information, the Threat to Duke Blackheart increases. As Duke Blackheart finds ways to threaten or confuse Sir Ronald, his Opportunities increase.

This approach uses strategic analysis to help develop plot. The analysis is called a SWOT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis) analysis, because it lists Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats. That's the same stuff that Sun Tzu talks about, but he also offers advice how to limit your weaknesses, capitalise on your strengths, pursue opportunities and avoid threats. For fictional purposes it can be just as interesting to ignore Sun Tzu's advice as to take it. :)

Hope that helps.

[Judg]

Wow. This is going to take some reflection. I was using it in a more limited way, i.e. trying to get into the heads of some military commanders in planning a trap. But I suspected there could be ways of using it more extensively.

[smsarber]

there will be no caps here--baby in arms=difficulty typing.

just watched lord of war w/ nicolas cage. good movie, i bring it up because of its good narration. not as good as morgan freeman narrating in shawshank redemption, but still good. some of the great lines in narration in movies i so wish i had come up with myself. but watching these movies helps me to learn to write with a stronger narrative voice. what are some of your favorite narrative films?

[smsarber]

I have a question: here's a couple lines from my new WIP.

*In the basement was a room she knew nothing about. Hidden behind an office, a four foot by six foot enclave housed a small arsenal. A piece of his life he'd hoped to get away from, yet he never got around to disposing of the weapons.*

The question is- can I use "enclave" in that sense? The dictionary defines it as: enclave n: a distinct territorial, cultural, or social unit enclosed within or as if within foreign territory.

I'm sure I've seen it used in much the way I have, but I can't think of where that might have been.

[James D. Macdonald]

No, that isn't what "enclave" means. Are you sure you didn't intend alcove? (And that probably belongs in Basic Writing Questions or SYW.....)

[smsarber]

Yes, that is what I meant, thanks UJ. Sorry to ask the wrong question here, I tend to stick with what I know, and I know the people in this thread pretty well. I'll be more selective where I ask questions like that, and try to keep the ones here more to the "writing novels" criteria.:e2salute:

[euclid]

In the last few days I have read two books by Kurt Vonnegut (his own top two): Cat's Cradle, which I hated, and Slaughterhouse Five which I loved. S-5 was very confusing, as the narrative moved around fairly randomly through time, with recurring themes all over the place. It's a clever book, a totally original take on flashbacks or 'time travel'. Thx Steve.

(Never heard of Sun Tzu).

[I put this post in here because I think there was some recent discussion about flashbacks etc. I'll delete it if need be.]

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim, more questions about the writer:

You live in New Hampshire--It seems so many great writers come from New England, is there something in the water there? Have you lived there your whole life (except service time, of course)?

What genres have you written in? Have you stuck mainly to SF/Fantasy, or have you written horror/thriller, comedy, western, etc...?

If you were suddenly unable to use your hands to write would you give verbal notes to Doyle, or use a recorder?

Enquiring minds want to know:)

[euclid]

Is New England = New Hampshire or is this a typo, Steve?

[James D. Macdonald]

Euclid:

New Hampshire is one of the New England states.

Steve: Genres I've written (been published) in: SF, Fantasy, Horror, non-fiction, humor, technothriller. Both book-length and short story. My only poetry has been (dare I say it?) self-published. See the AW library (where I really need to fill in more stuff, if I want it to be complete.

But this is not the Jim Macdonald Thread, this is the Learn Writing Thread (which happens to be guided by Jim Macdonald).

So, to that end:

If anyone who is reading this responds to any Google Ads for any writing-related service (such as you can see at the top of this very page), I will come to your house and mock you in person. The ads themselves range from misleading to dishonest to fraudulent, and lead to places that range from Very Bad Ideas to Utter Scams.

[smsarber]

But this is not the Jim Macdonald Thread, this is the Learn Writing Thread (which happens to be guided by Jim Macdonald).



I know, but I think some of us can benefit from knowing more about the man who helps us navigate these choppy waters. At least I try to give a week or two before I ask personal questions;)lol.

[euclid]

Euclid:

New Hampshire is one of the New England states.

To save everybody some time, I googled New England. very surprised to find that New England is not a state. I thought/assumed it was. Shows you what I know about the good old US of A!

Is New England a political entity of some kind - like a superstate? And are there other superstates?

[James D. Macdonald]

A far more appropriate place to discuss all that would be on my personal homepage (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/).

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, What are the rules about using a brief reference to a specific individual (in this case Stephen Jay Gould in reference to his idea about punctuated equilibrium) in a fictional work? The reference is used in passing in a conversation between 2 characters, is not disrespectful or slanderous.

Niles Eldredge, Gould's partner on his 1972 paper, is still alive, but Gould passed away in 2002.

Should I seek permission to use Gould's name?

It's possible, in this case, to simply reference the theory to some unnamed researchers so if it presents a problem I can easily work around it.

[James D. Macdonald]

Why not just say "Stephen Jay Gould"?

Your editor will eventually help you with this. Concentrate on telling the story for right now.

[FOTSGreg]

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I thought I'd run it past you first but if it's okay by you, and my editor will eventually help, I'll run with it.

The story's told, the rewrite's being completed (#7 actually). The fine-tuning is being done now and I hope to start marketing the work by mid-July or earlier.

My references are all factual wherever they're made.

[vox]

UJ, I didn't know what it was, but something told me I should copy it and keep it. Now, I know what it is. You're too cool!


Gur (n) cybg: Ovyy Pbfol jnagf gb fyrrc

Gur (o) cybg: Ovyy Pbfol'f jvsr guerngraf uvz jvgu ivbyrapr.

Gur rkcrpgrq (O) pyvznk: Ovyy'f jvsr jvyy npghnyyl cresbez ivbyrapr.

Gur (N) pbapyhfvba fhofvghgrq sbe O: Ovyy trgf gb tb onpx gb fyrrc.


I wish I could've figured it out from your original post, but unfortunately, you had to actually spell it out for me. Thanks for that and thanks for this, too!

[smsarber]

Am I the only one REALLY confused now?

[Calliopenjo]

No, I was hoping to find my decoder ring so I could keep up with Uncle Jim. I'm still lost with that discussion.

[James D. Macdonald]

Decoder Ring (http://www.faqintosh.com/risorse/en/othutil/webapps/rot13/)

[Calliopenjo]

Thank you for the decoder ring Uncle Jim. Now I get it. :Hug2:

[euclid]

Decoder Ring (http://www.faqintosh.com/risorse/en/othutil/webapps/rot13/)

What was that all about?
I found the decoder and decoded the message, but why code it in the first place? And what...? I mean who...? Or why...?

It mentioned Usenet. I've never been there.
I know you'd never believe it, but I spent nearly 30 years working with computers!

[euclid]

Here's another take on Bill Cosby's routine.

N cybg: Ovyy jnagf gb fyrrc
O cybg: Ovyy’f jvsr jnagf uvz gb znxr oernxsnfg sbe gur xvqf
P cybg: Ovyy qbrfa’g xabj jung gb pbbx sbe oernxsnfg
Q cybg: Uvf lbhatrfg qnhtugre jnagf pnxr
Gur rkcrpgrq pyvznk bs Q (Ovyy’f ershfny gb tvir ure pnxr) vf ercynprq jvgu gur pyvznk bs P, jura Ovyy ernfbaf gung pnxr vf shyy bs ahgevgvbany vaterqvragf naq nterrf gb tvir ure pnxr.
R cybg: Ovyy’f bgure sbhe puvyqera nfx sbe pnxr gbb
Ntnva, Ovyy zvtug unir ershfrq, ohg ur tbrf jvgu uvf bevtvany ernfbavat naq rirelobql unf pnxr. Gur R pyvznk (ershfvat pnxr gb gur bgure sbhe) vf ercynprq ol gur P pyvznk
Ovyy’f jvsr nccrnef naq ybbxf yvxr fur zvtug rkcybqr (gur rkcrpgrq pyvznk bs cybg O) ohg fur fraqf Ovyy onpx gb orq, fhofgvghgvat gur pyvznk bs cybg N.

[James D. Macdonald]

Don't mistake incident for plot.

[allenparker]

So, to that end:

If anyone who is reading this responds to any Google Ads for any writing-related service (such as you can see at the top of this very page), I will come to your house and mock you in person.

So, I let myself be scammed and Jim comes to my house to mock me, where I kidnap him and force him to tutor me. If he refuses, I will feed him the turkey-like substance from a MRE and the chocolate bars from C-rats. Soon I'll be a better writer and all the agents will want me and the guys here will want to be like me.

Sounds like a fair deal... How does this work? Do I send you a receipt for the scamming? Or is there some UJ magical telepathy that lets you know? Is there better training for the bigger, more expensive scams?

[vox]

So, I let myself be scammed and Jim comes to my house to mock me, where I kidnap him and force him to tutor me. If he refuses, I will feed him the turkey-like substance from a MRE and the chocolate bars from C-rats. Soon I'll be a better writer and all the agents will want me and the guys here will want to be like me.

Sounds like a fair deal... How does this work? Do I send you a receipt for the scamming? Or is there some UJ magical telepathy that lets you know? Is there better training for the bigger, more expensive scams?

This will be a perfect, real-life example of UJ's climax substitution!

Plot A: writer plans and executes kidnapping of UJ.

Plot B: writer is able to learn all of UJ's secrets and just as the climax of signing a mult-book deal with a huge advance is about to happen...

Climax of Plot A is substituted: the police come knocking on the door and drag writer off to jail, where he has plenty of time to write, but can't make a dime off of any of it!

Truth be told, I thought of the same thing myself when I read UJ's post about the scams! I guess we'll just have to learn it the old fashioned way: :Headbang:

:D

[smsarber]

I guess we'll just have to learn it the old fashioned way: :Headbang:


Yes, with hours and hours of writing, learning, writing some more, learning some more, writing some... okay, you get the picture. Well, I get the picture.

[James D. Macdonald]

There's a lovely line in the movie Cross of Iron.

"I can not give you a Cross of Iron, but I can take you where they grow."

In the same way:

I can not give you a publishing contract, but I can take you where they grow.

[Marcus]

I read the first few thread pages, and I was beside myself with the chess metaphor.
I've been writing as a hobby since late 2007, and up till now, it’s been instinctual storytelling. I'm now trying my best to take this site in, in its entirety, and so far I've learned a lot about my own mistakes, and the weaknesses of my writing. I wish I could read faster because this site has month’s worth of good information to be absorbed.
I play chess to put my pieces in positions to deny my opponents board position. I position my pieces to take advantage of mistakes. People that aren’t studied up and "skilled" at chess hate playing against me; my wife won't play with me anymore lol. I called her and told her to order the book for me, and when I get to LA in a few months it is on the top of my "must read" list. :)
I can't express how excited I am to continue my learning (now that I've discovered this website as a honest and true resource) and absorbing of the mechanics of what I'm choosing for my profession.
Thanks

[FOTSGreg]

Marcus, So you're saying you don't play to win, but to obtain a stalemate, or at least to prevent your opponent from winning?

I'm not entirely certain that a stalemate is an option in writing if you want to eventually be published. Writing is a game with few winners and lot of people playing/competing against one another. You have to play to win.

Just one person's opinion, worth what you paid for it.

[smsarber]

I don't know that he meant he doesn't play to win, but that he utilizes every tactical advantage at his disposal.

Now, in my opinion, that is a key in writing.

[Marcus]

Marcus, So you're saying you don't play to win, but to obtain a stalemate, or at least to prevent your opponent from winning?

Just one person's opinion, worth what you paid for it.

My style of chess is one that will give me a win on people that make mistakes. I'm a "swooper", I can identify mistakes and be in a position to take advantage of it. If you understand action and reaction, I have a reactive style, I can't gain an advantage until someone makes a mistake with me not makeing one myself. This is usually sufficient to win on "regular" people. :)
If I play someone that knows enough about the game to NOT make "mistakes", i loose in a crushing heart wrenching defeat that can only be described as epic. It’s a brutal simple strategy, and in NO way can be considered a "master" strategy. I'm going to invest the time to study the book on chess recommended, and I'm smart enough to be able to read it as a learning tool for my own writing. :)
The reason I talked about my chess play is because I can already see parallels with my writing, the metaphor was Very accurate for me IMHO. :)

[SilverPhoenix]

Chess isn't my thing. I'll stick to poker.

It probably suits my writing better. The characters always surprise me, like an unexpected pair of aces. And the stakes build and build as it gets closer to the final hand ;)

(The chess-writing link probably makes more sense :tongue But each to his own.)

[Blue Sky]

There's a lovely line in the movie Cross of Iron.

"I can not give you a Cross of Iron, but I can take you where they grow."

In the same way:

I can not give you a publishing contract, but I can take you where they grow.

One of my favorite lines. The book of the same name by Willi Heinrich is imho a fine study of portraying the hopeless, exhausted, doomed feeling of fighting a lost war. The movie sugar-coated things a bit. The book's original title was The Willing Flesh. (Did you read it in German, Jim?) Another great book for studying such portrayal is The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sayer. Essentially, a German soldier walks home from Russia during World War II, fighting continually.

So, Jim, once one lands the proverbial book contract, does the Roman galley captain's line in Ben Hur apply?

"You are all condemned men. We keep you alive to serve this ship. So row well and live."

[FOTSGreg]

Marcus, I understand and I truly meant no offense by my comment. I've played against opponents like you before and I'd guess my win:loss ratio was about 50:50 depending on whether or not I was really paying attention.

I would think that using every tactical advantage, as smsarber points out, would be a good way to write and play chess, but using those tactical advantages usually requires an aggressive and forward-looking style and manner of play in my opinion. I hesitate to allow my opponent in a chess game or a wargame (which chess can be likened to) to gain the tactical advantage of the initiative. A "reactive" game does just that. That's very much against Tsun Szu's advice and very much against the laws of military history. However, overly aggressive players can and will fall into traps of the type that Marcus is speaking of. That's fairly typical of players in "bar" chess.

Be that as it may, having a reactive attiitude owards one's writing style doesn;t seem to me to be a very good option either. Writing is an active activity and requires an active push to propel it forward in my opinion, both in the writing and in the initiative of the writer to get out there and query, submit, publish, and market.

I'm not trying to offend here, it's just my opinion.

[Marcus]

:) hey bud, it’s All good! No offence taken, no offence given I hope. My first post stated I was beside myself, because I understand how I play chess, and I look back at my writing and see that there are major parallels. I'm gunna study the book for the value it will give me. I'm here for a learning experience. I agree with your point and that’s why I stated it’s on the top of my "must read" list. :) Plus I'll get to upgrade my chess game!
Believe me, I have fairly thick skin, I have to have that because I straight shoot people all the time that get offended that my words don't pull punches. Unless someone is outright looking to offend, I can take it. I'm not a forum nooby, just new to this forum :)

[Blue Sky]

Wow, your first post is in Uncle Jim's thread. Welcome!

I'm new here myself. If you haven't, I strongly recommend reading the entire thread, perhaps taking some notes along the way. This is the single best resource to writing commercial fiction that I've found.

[brainstorm77]

Uncle Jim, can you explain the proper use of semicolons to me? Thanks.

[euclid]

I second that question, and could you comment on the use of semicolons in dialogue. I was told by a beta reader that it's not done. Is this true?

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, can you explain the proper use of semicolons to me? Thanks.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/04/

I second that question, and could you comment on the use of semicolons in dialogue. I was told by a beta reader that it's not done. Is this true?

No, it is not true.

[brainstorm77]

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/607/04/

Thanks for the link.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim. :Hug2:

[James D. Macdonald]

Way back on page 3 of this thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=3), I recommended some books that y'all should have in your offices or on your desks. I included handy links so you could buy 'em if you didn't already have 'em.

Please, folks, go get 'em.

[euclid]

I have the New Oxford English Dictionary. Do I need Miriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary as well?

Is The Chicago Manual of Style relevant if I'm writing primarily for the UK market?

[SilverPhoenix]

I don't think which dictionary you use matters so much. I have tons of them.
What one I grab doesn't make a difference.

I like to use online ones sometimes tho, because it's so much faster (and yes there are some decent ones available for free).

The Chicago Manual of Style is very good and will still be mostly relevant to you :)
It's pretty highly recommended for everyone, US or UK.

[smsarber]

A friend recently told me "Spunk and Bite" is a good tool to have, as well. That it fills in where "Elements of Style" leaves off. Remember, "EoS" was written like 80 years ago. I must get these books or I will never become a Published Author! Oh, wait, that wasn't what you meant, was it? But really, I need to get these. I know they'll help, especially to a drop-out like me.

[Calliopenjo]

Creative spaces where writer's write (http://www.whereiwrite.org/index.php).

Side note: My home office looks barren now.

[Marcus]

OK, so going over Allen Guthrie's infomous writing mistakes.. #11 is Avoid sounding 'writerly'

Forgive me for asking this. I've actually had someone comment that at moments in my work my narration crept into this category. I'm still learning here, and trying to pick this up as fast as possible. Many of my questions I was able to avoid by using the Search function, but with this, I feel like I really need help.

Is there a link with examples of this kind of thing? Is there a way to know when this happens, or is this kind of thing purely subjective in substance? I certainly don't want to have people post up grips of examples; I'm sure the subject has been discussed at some point before. Any help on the specific subject would be great. I'd even settle for a link to a book with the answer I'm looking for. I've already Favorited half a dozen books I'm going to order on the 1st...

as always, thanks for your time.

[James D. Macdonald]

The "Hey, Look, Ma, I'm Writing!" style of writing?

I think Guthrie is warning against over-writing. What Mark Twain meant when he said "Eschew obfuscation."

Here's the full text of Guthrie's #11:

11: Avoid sounding ‘writerly’. Better to dirty up your prose. When you sound like a writer, your voice has crept in and authorial intrusion is always unwelcome. In the best writing, the author is invisible.

But I tell you true: What's really going to hurt is if you change levels or styles within your work. The contrast will make one or another section seem grotesque.

The full of Guthrie's advice (http://www.adventurebooksofseattle.com/Videos%20and%20Music/Hunting%20Down%20The%20Pleonasm.doc).

Take what you need. Leave the rest.

[Marcus]

Let me take a moment of your time and say thank you for all you do here.

Your advice on changing within my own work is a great voice of caution. I've read the list a couple times now and that #11 is the one that just isn't that substantitive to me. I understand what it is saying intrinsically, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it firmly.

Again thank you for all the time you spend here giving advice to the rest of us here that couldn't pay you enough for your efforts!

I'm going to let the forum cool down for a little while and get back to revising my existing work. Once I'm done with that, I'm going to school up on rules of outlining. I found that when I made my outline, even a rough one, the work was about ten times easier to accomplish. I'm now of the opinion that an outline should be 80% of the 20-80 rule.

[James D. Macdonald]

You're quite welcome.

Since we're handing around lists of Writers' Advice, here's a great list from John Scalzi (http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/002697.html).

[Marcus]

OH OH another reason to use the printer.. :) By the time I know this website inside and out I'm going to have a Manuscript of pure knowledge.

I meet someone that wants to write, I plop a pile of papers in their lap and say, "memorize this!" :)

I even contacted one of my old high school teachers last night to get her to see if she could magic me up a teachers edition English book for me for free. It will be much different studying English with the purpose of actually learning it as opposed to just surviving the class. Plus I've been out of school for over ten years so I have nothing to lose and a Lot to gain.

[Prozyan]

I've read the list a couple times now and that #11 is the one that just isn't that substantitive to me. I understand what it is saying intrinsically, but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it firmly.

Lemme take a stab at this.

Your job, as the writer, is to give to the reader important information about your story in the most efficient (and hopefully entertaining) way possible. For example, in my story I have a kitchen with yellow dining chairs. The chairs serve no real purpose in the story and the color of the chairs isn't important outside of scene setting, and my MC (main character) has no special relation to the chairs. In short, they are nothing more than scenery.

The most efficient way for me to write about the chairs would be: The dining room chairs are yellow.

Simple, clear and to the point. I'm sure, right now, you have an image in your head of a yellow chair. Mission accomplished. Are these highback chairs, cushioned chairs, or plain chairs? In my mind, the detail is plain, but in your mind, the chairs might be something else. That doesn't matter, the only specific detail I wish to impart is the chairs are yellow.

Now, let's take the same situation and break Guthrie's rule #11:

The dining room chairs were the color of molten gold, faintly reflecting the light in their simple, clean elegance. Sometimes the light would shift and the chairs would take on the hue of amber. Especially at sunset, the chairs seemed to grow older and more dignified, as if growing wiser with the setting of the sun.

See, here I've just spouted off a lot of random words that serve no purpose to the story. Its unnecessary exposition and kills the writing. Its an attempt to "sound writerly" by overcompensating.

Around a year ago, there was a member that remarked novels were nothing but 90% fluff. It is this attitude that leads to overwriting: the idea that everything in a novel or story must have some deep description or detail.

Uncle Jim gave the Mark Twain quote (I think Twain actually said "Eschew surplusage", but its essentially the same thing): "Eschew obfuscation". Why say "Eschew obfuscation" when "Be clear" works just as well, reads better, and is most likely more easily understood by the masses?

TLDR version: Don't try to show off your vocabulary or mad writerz skillz. Just write so people understand what you want them to understand.

[James D. Macdonald]

Unfortunately, the writer is always a character. Even an "invisible" writer is an invisible character.

[euclid]

Jim, is that a reference to you in Guthrie's #31?

ETA: Researching Crime Noir, I found John D. MacDonald. Apologies for the daft question!

Number 2 is a puzzle.
Number 23 was a revelation. (no sentences in dialogue)
Number 29 is a major problem for me. (grinning, smiling, shrugging)

[euclid]

Prozyan: Why mention the chairs at all? And if you have to for some reason, why mention the colour?

[euclid]

Unfortunately, the writer is always a character. Even an "invisible" writer is an invisible character.

Could you detect the writer in my "Short Back and Sides"?

[Prozyan]

Prozyan: Why mention the chairs at all? And if you have to for some reason, why mention the colour?

Random example to use for Guthrie's #11 and just something off the top of my head. Nothing more, nothing less. :) I read again my posting and see where I say "my story". Didn't mean to imply this was from an actual story, just making an example.

I could have used a person's eyeglasses, freckles, hair color, or any mundane item that, as you say, could be not mentioned at all, but is not only mentioned, but overwritten to a horrible extent.

[euclid]

Right. No offence meant.

[Prozyan]

Right. No offence meant.

None taken at all. :D

[euclid]

You're quite welcome.

Since we're handing around lists of Writers' Advice, here's a great list from John Scalzi (http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/002697.html).

That was wonderful. Very astute, very helpful; uplifting, even. I seem to remember hearing of someone who writes on a laptop in a coffee shop and reads his own stuff aloud...

I have a relative (by marriage) who is a megasuccessful writer of children's books. I have been toying with the idea of arranging to get introduced to him and asking him to recommend my novel to his agent. What do you think? I was saving it for when I run out of agents' names to sub under my own steam. I know he's very busy at the moment.

[Judg]

I don't quite get "sounding writerly" either. I thought we were supposed to let our own voice shine through.

I do know what I have to look out for in my own writing. Sometimes it comes across schoolmarmish and stuffy. I don't notice it while I'm actually writing, but when I reread later on, even I find it unpleasant. Maybe it's like looking at a photograph of yourself; you see things that you don't see in a mirror.

Scientifically, this is how I deal with it: any passage that makes me go blech has to be rewritten. I ask myself what I was trying to say, whether it needs to be said, and then I try to say that thing as clearly and directly as possible.

The amount of description is a matter of cultural and personal taste. Most romance novels drive me nuts for this reason (and others) but obviously there is a huge market that disagrees with me. In general our culture at this point in time prefers description to be on the lean side. I have read novels where there is a lot of description and I've enjoyed it, because it came in short, vivid doses. Instead of overwhelming me, it pulled me into the scene by making me participate with my senses.

[euclid]

Hey Judg, I think consistency is the key. But what would I know?

[smsarber]

I don't quite get "sounding writerly" either. I thought we were supposed to let our own voice shine through.



And if your voice is true, it will (can I be more vague and mysterious?):)

But what you said about schoolmarmish, I get. I will repeat something Uncle Jim (though I think it came from elsewhere) has said: Using five-dollar words when a nickel word will do. I am very guilty of it. I think I use it to show people "Hey, I dropped out of of school... but I still have an IQ over 130. So ha!" Okay, I'm kidding a bit, but it's still true. I use big, sometimes obscure words in my daily speak. But I'm learning in my work to pick the 'write' word: What fits best in the prose. Which is what I most believe Guthrie means. For Tom Clancy, big, obscure words are the way to go. Big, obscure, tech jargon I don't understand. Which is why I haven't been able to finish a Clancy novel. But it works with his readers. Of course, if he had three paragraphs of tech talk, then one written in 'nickel-words' I'd wonder if he had a small stroke while writing.

So, Kiddies, keep your voice, keep it consistent, LOVE what you write. But make sure it fits the prose.

[James D. Macdonald]

Style is what you can't help doing.

So, if you sound schoolmarmish, and can't help it, pick stories where that's a plus.

(As far as Tom Clancy: Many years ago, when I was with Uncle Sam, here's how I was introduced to his novels. I walked into the wardroom, where one of my brother officers was reading Hunt for Red October, and my comrade looked up and said, "Hey, Mac! Someone told this guy that LORAN-Charlie works!")

[smsarber]

So I guess LORAN-Charlie doesn't;)

One more thing, for me, the novel is that last place I need to showcase my smartitude. I mean, when's the last time you read a review of a Stephen King book that said, "He sounds intelligient" or "This writer graduated high school?"

[errantruth]

when's the last time you read a review of a Stephen King book that said, "He sounds intelligient" or "This writer graduated high school?"
:D Too true. Love it. *wipes tears from eyes*

[Judg]

Style is what you can't help doing.

So, if you sound schoolmarmish, and can't help it, pick stories where that's a plus.
It generally happens when I'm flailing. Well, at least the extreme, grating on the nerves stuff.

There's certainly no question of me doing chick lit. I'd never be able to get the tone right. ;)

I edit the wordiness and complex sentences out most of the time, but leave it in for characters who would talk that way. I did a short short which was a monologue by an uptight, prissy type and I let her have at it. It worked rather well. But I do have trouble imagining any other stories where that kind of voice would work.

[Ken Schneider]

It generally happens when I'm flailing. Well, at least the extreme, grating on the nerves stuff.

There's certainly no question of me doing chick lit. I'd never be able to get the tone right. ;)

I edit the wordiness and complex sentences out most of the time, but leave it in for characters who would talk that way. I did a short short which was a monologue by an uptight, prissy type and I let her have at it. It worked rather well. But I do have trouble imagining any other stories where that kind of voice would work.

Oh I don't know. A southern bell spinning an umbrella on her shoulder on a hot Memphis day in the park? One who thinks she's pretty but has been passed over a few times by the gentlemen in favor of her younger sisters.

[smsarber]

Or maybe a comedy with a cheerleader who finds herself transported back in time to the 1950's, where the attention she recieves is out of curiosity over her clothes, hair, and demeanor... not her looks.

[Blue Sky]

Judg: You know what came to me when I read your "schoolmarmy" post? A sassy character with her own series. If that voice is distinctive--think trademark--a character whom we like in spite of it all might be fun. Just a thought. Of course, it starts with one standalone book, but?

Hey everybody, The New Yorker summer fiction issue is on the stands. Of course, I'm sometimes the last to notice. Just started reading it and I'm enjoying it. First time I've read TNY in ten years. Some fine examples of writing in there.

Jim: Picked up Chicago MoS and Roget's at your reminder. Chicago has so much in it! I've been scrambling around getting by all these years. What a time saver and learning tool. Never used a thesaurus much, but that little exercise using words other people loved and hated forced me to write differently. Hmm. More goofing around ahead, I see.

[James D. Macdonald]

Since we're going off-site to look at things, here's The Story Is All: Ten Fiction Editors Talk Shop (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/editors_interview/).

[Ken Schneider]

Really good insight UJ.

It gave me a good feel for how editors think, and select work, and why.

[blacbird]

Really good insight UJ.

It gave me a good feel for how editors think, and select work, and why.

With two or three of them, God help you if you're over 30.

caw

[motormind]

Confusing your readers is almost never a good idea.

Then I'm in deep trouble.

[Calliopenjo]

Uncle Jim,

Is there rule for profanity in stories? :Shrug:

[smsarber]

If it fits, use it. If it is only there for the sake of being there, don't.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. :Hug2:

[Judg]

Uncle Jim,

Is there rule for profanity in stories? :Shrug:
That depends on your intended audience. Different groups of people have different tolerances for profanity.

I personally will close even an excellent book if it explodes the F-bomb too frequently. For me it's like dog turds on the lawn: you can step around one or two, but if the whole lawn is carpeted...

[smsarber]

The big thing for me is the character. If my character is a lower-middle class teenager, chances are he's going to cuss. That's just life, and I'll write him that way. If it's a church pastor I'd better not have him "dog-turding" the lawn or people won't find him believable.

[James D. Macdonald]

Profanity: Like every other word in your book it must reveal character, support the theme, or advance the plot.


If some word does none of those things, cut that word.

[Blue Sky]

I personally will close even an excellent book if it explodes the F-bomb too frequently. For me it's like dog turds on the lawn: you can step around one or two, but if the whole lawn is carpeted...

Ha! Glad you mentioned the intended audience angle. The primary consideration of whether to use any of our tools is not art, in my opinion, but our intended audience. For me, the art goes without saying: that's our job, isn't it?

jmho.

Turd is an intriguing word. Your image of a turd-studded lawn has helped me continue writing without a snack. Thank you! (I think.)

Years ago I read a trashy novel about a mechanized infantry unit in Viet Nam. Never before or since have I encountered such a concentration of written profanity. A young, lower-enlisted soldier at the time, I laughed so hard. The author captured vulgarity in the ranks as well or better than anybody else I've read.

[smsarber]

An example of appropriate use of F-Bomb-laden dialogue, see "Planes, Trains and Automobiles," 47 minutes in. Even the pastor I mentioned in my last post might react the same way.

[Judg]

Turd is an intriguing word. Your image of a turd-studded lawn has helped me continue writing without a snack. Thank you! (I think.)
LOL! Always glad to be of service. But I truly do have a visceral reaction to profanity. Sometimes authors pull it off well enough to keep me reading, like Pat Wood in Lottery. But it was one character in particular and as he was a Vietnam vet, it was appropriate. It helped that he was essentially likable. And that few of the other characters swore.

[James D. Macdonald]

Why not write up the adventures of Patsy Wentzel, Schoolmarm For Hire?

Patsy adjusted her pince-nez then took the ransom note. "Someone," she said, "does not have very good penmanship."

[Judg]

LOL! Change penmanship to spelling, and it could be me... I never had good penmanship either.

[Neversage]

So I'm going through my first major revision, and I'm noticing that it is easier to focus on one major aspect as I go. For example: right now I'm working on getting notations, plot, and continuity sorted out. But I find myself thinking, "I'll go back an add a better description, or some scene-setting adjectives later."

Do any of you have experience doing it this way? Could this just be one way of knowing that the extra description is unnecessary?

[Calliopenjo]

My personal experience when I tweak my stories, is that my main focus is always on description of scenes. I think I did a good job, but my writing group often tells me different. So that's my main focus to begin with, then it's the double check with grammar and punctuation before sending it to a beta.

[FOTSGreg]

My focus these days is on maintaining an active voice, eliminating passivity as much as possible, and tweaking scenes and dialogue to add character and maintain that active voice.

I'm finding I rewrite sections wholesale and cut other sections entirely as repetitive, unnecessary, and entirely too passive.

[James D. Macdonald]

That isn't the way that I do it, but you know the mantra.

I suggest that at least you put little check-marks in the margin to indicate "There was something else here I wanted to do."

[Neversage]

That isn't the way that I do it, but you know the mantra.

I suggest that at least you put little check-marks in the margin to indicate "There was something else here I wanted to do."

I usually go something like ###THIS PART SUCKS, MAKE IT BETTER WITH MORE PRETTY WORDS### and then revisit it with a fresh eye. Thanks for the insight, everyone: )