Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Rushie]

I usually go something like ###THIS PART SUCKS, MAKE IT BETTER WITH MORE PRETTY WORDS### and then revisit it with a fresh eye. Thanks for the insight, everyone: )

Ha ha ha... my works are sprinkled with stuff like this:

Brant walked out and - oh my god this is crap just figure out what Brant is doing here and rewrite the whole scene.

[Neversage]

Ha ha ha... my works are sprinkled with stuff like this:

Brant walked out and - oh my god this is crap just figure out what Brant is doing here and rewrite the whole scene.

Cheers! I think this sort of thing touches back on the earlier mentioned concept of the author being a character inevitably.

[smsarber]

I thought it was "invisibly." (Well, an "invisible" character.)

[Tburger]

I have a question, and I searched the threads but didn't find anything, which got me worried. Anyway, an agent just mentioned that if I signed with him, he'd need some information like my bio, etc., so he could complete his fiction proposal, write his cover letter, etc.

I know what non-fiction proposals are, but has anyone heard of fiction proposals for genre books? Do some publishers ask for these?

[James D. Macdonald]

What's the agent sold?

[Judg]

Take a look at Steve Laube's site for an idea of what is included in the proposal agents submit to editors. (He asks queriers to submit the whole package, which is probably a wonderful way of winnowing out non-serious writers.)

[James D. Macdonald]

In case I forgot to recommend this essay (if I already did, here it is again): Joe Bob Briggs on writing. (http://www.joebobbriggs.com/jbamerica/1991/jba910510.html)

[Salis]

Personally, I like this list:

1. Get paid.

[James D. Macdonald]

Personally, I like this list:

1. Get paid.

Sometimes trickier than it looks.

=======================

More links for you:

Displaced advice, and other sorts (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006006.html)

Like expertise, only different (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006335.html)

[Salis]

I saw those in the other thread before you DELETED THEM. Pretty funny stuff, I like the one about authors who haven't actually learned to write themselves writing books about how to write.

[James D. Macdonald]

If I'm going to be Your Genial Uncle, I have to delete My Bitchy Posts. Else I'd have to change my description to Your Bitchy Uncle and where would be the fun of that?

Something else fun for y'all: http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/lovelace-the-origin-2/

[Calliopenjo]

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY TO ALL THE DADS, STEPDADS, POPPAS, DADS OF THE HEART, AND SOON TO BE DADS. :PartySmil

[Ruv Draba]

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY TO ALL THE DADS, STEPDADS, POPPAS, DADS OF THE HEART, AND SOON TO BE DADS. In Australia it's in September, and it's also a goiter on domestic harmony and a blight on the sock drawer.

Enjoy your burned toast and cheap aftershave, gents. Mum will be back to threatening them with you come lunch-time.

[James D. Macdonald]

Varieties of insanity known to affect authors (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004307.html)

============================

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Just turned in a novel. It starts with a prologue. Then the first paragraph of chapter one is a weather report.

Darned thing only runs 60K.

This probably has a lot to do with why I've been feeling so bitchy lately.

Just so you know.

[Calliopenjo]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Just turned in a novel. It starts with a prologue. Then the first paragraph of chapter one is a weather report.

Darned thing only runs 60K.

This probably has a lot to do with why I've been feeling so bitchy lately.

Just so you know.

Another pair of eyes will help you to see the light. At least that is assuming you were the author.

For what it's worth: The world spins and life continues. Tomorrow something else will happen that will make this seem petty in comparison.

Good luck Uncle Jim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Another pair of eyes will help you to see the light. At least that is assuming you were the author.


Oh, I was. Or, co-author, actually. But since in the eyes of God and Man my wife and I are one ... well, anyway.

Not to worry. The editor will now get to make cogent comments. By the time we're done with revisions who knows what'll be there.

This is another Civil War fantasy.

Next project (and gonna power right through it this time) the next Peter Crossman novel.

After that, a new Mageworlds novel.

After that, I'll see where we stand.

[euclid]

Went to the local library looking for

Allan Guthrie - never heard of him
John Scalzi - who?
John D. MacDonald - no, sorry. Have you read P.D. James? We have him.

[FOTSGreg]

I’m not a real writer. I don’t know what I’m doing.

Oh, Lordie, does this ever hit close to home (usually after discussing the science of a scene with some folks over at the Analog forum or the Analog Writer's Group, sometimes an info-dump).

I'm in one of those funks right now, actually...

[IceCreamEmpress]

John D. MacDonald - no, sorry. Have you read P.D. James? We have him.

Oh, lord, please tell me this wasn't a UK library. Not knowing US writers is bad enough, but not knowing Baroness James of Holland Park?!?!? :(

[smsarber]

Went to the local library looking for

Allan Guthrie - never heard of him
John Scalzi - who?
John D. MacDonald - no, sorry. Have you read P.D. James? We have him.

Were you supposed to be looking for James D. MacDonald? Not John?

[Ken Schneider]

Were you supposed to be looking for James D. MacDonald? Not John?

I found through VP the contributing authors list, that one of the authors lives but ten miles from me.

Never knew it. I guess that's a good thing.

[James D. Macdonald]

Went to the local library looking for

Allan Guthrie - never heard of him


Scots crime fiction author.

John Scalzi - who?

American science fiction author.


John D. MacDonald - no, sorry.

American crime fiction author, now deceased, best know for his Travis McGee novels.


Have you read P.D. James? We have him.

They meant, "We have her." "P. D." stands for Phyllis Dorothy James.

And your point is? That you have a lousy library that can't do simple lookups even on UK authors?

[euclid]

Oh, lord, please tell me this wasn't a UK library. Not knowing US writers is bad enough, but not knowing Baroness James of Holland Park?!?!? :(

That last bit about PD James was a small piece of fiction added for dramatic effect. Sorry about that. The rest of it was accurate. Not a UK library - an Irish one.

My point was that my county library is poorly stocked with American (and even Scottish) writers.

I used the inter-library service to request a copy of The Chicago Manual of Style. Had a fun discussion with the library staff when they expressed surprise that I was interested in American clothing fashions.

[smsarber]

This probably has a lot to do with why I've been feeling so bitchy lately.



And all the while I thought it was just me. :tongue

[euclid]

I stumbled across this publisher's site: www.lyricalpress.com/submissions

On the submissions page they have book formatting tips that include the following:

"Use your word processing toys to indent new paragraphs. Do not tab or use the space bar."

What does this mean? I've always used tab.

"Do not use style elements or sections breaks."

I thought # was used between sections to indicate (typically) the passage of time (US convention). In the UK I understood the preferred method was two line feeds and then no indent on the first paragraph of the new section.

[euclid]

I'm concerned about the genre of my book, the one I'm querying at the moment. The first half of the book builds fairly slowly, like a mystery, the second half is fast and exciting - a thriller/suspense. The whole could be considered a coming-of-age book and might be categorized as a literary novel. There is also a strong love story in there, and it has a strong plot. Oh and of course it's setting is historical.

How do you decide what genre to target?

[Perle_Rare]

I stumbled across this publisher's site: www.lyricalpress.com/submissions (http://www.lyricalpress.com/submissions)

On the submissions page they have book formatting tips that include the following:

"Use your word processing toys to indent new paragraphs. Do not tab or use the space bar."

What does this mean? I've always used tab.


If you're using MS Word, for example, you can set the size of the first line indent automatically so that every time you hit the "Enter" key (which indicates the end of a paragraph), the cursor will automatically be positioned at the right spot without the use of the tab key.

In my current version of Word (2007), that setting is under "Paragraph / Indents and Spacing / Indentation". I set the "First line" spacing to 0.5".

Hope that helps...

[jst5150]

Jim, one of the three principal characters in my novel is dead. And that dead character's history and action play throughout the book. Can you offer any thoughts on "dead character as main character," and how one best handles that throughout the story?

Thanks.

[allenparker]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch....

Just turned in a novel. It starts with a prologue. (No one reads them anyway.) Then the first paragraph of chapter one is a weather report. (And now for the 11:35 weather report.)

Darned thing only runs 60K.
This probably has a lot to do with why I've been feeling so bitchy lately.

Just so you know.

Everyone has their moments. Enjoy them!


Oh, I was. Or, co-author, actually. But since in the eyes of God and Man my wife and I are one ... well, anyway.

Not to worry. The editor will now get to make cogent comments. By the time we're done with revisions who knows what'll be there.

This is another Civil War fantasy.

Next project (and gonna power right through it this time) the next Peter Crossman novel.

After that, a new Mageworlds novel.

After that, I'll see where we stand.

Which brings up this question. Obviously, an author eventually gets to the point where he sends in novels to a publisher and they take them, review them, but the focus changes from whether they want the novel or not to beginning the process of preparing the manuscript for publication.

So, how many novels does it take the average bottomlist author to reach such a place?

Where is the tipping point from fear of being rejected to fear of dishing out a less desirable novel?

Or is there ever a point where the run of the mill author has this luxury?

[Ken Schneider]

Somewhat connected, but not, Allen.

I'm going with the theory that it takes a million words/ten 100k novels, before one is in good writing form.

I'm over half way there.

If this is the case, and one writes a novel that a publisher or an agent considers, publishes or represents, I'll be happy.

Success to me after that point depends on sales of that first work, IMO.

Once published, you have a trackable history to help you sink or swim.

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, you never get over the feeling that you're just faking it and that any minute now your editors and the reading public will figure this out and you'll have to go get an honest job.

Yeah, I know that I've said that the real way to learn to write a novel is to write one. But that isn't strictly true. What you learn by writing a novel is how to write that novel. You're going to have to go back to learning all over again on the next one.

[James D. Macdonald]

Can you offer any thoughts on "dead character as main character," and how one best handles that throughout the story?


No, I can't. But you can. And, with the aid of your beta readers, you will.

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid, I've seen more and more of that sort of thing lately. I always use the tab key as well (comes from half a lifetime of using a typewriter before shifting to computers and word processors). I've seen some publications asking writers to use 5 spaces instead of a tab or indent, It may have something to do with Word's embedded commands or with the way documents convert to text or rtf files.

I've also seen at least half a dozen different ways, at least, to separate scenes, but until I learn better, I'll stick with what the SFWA says and that's to use the # key to separate scenes.

[euclid]

I did a word count: 395,000 so far, including my short stories. Only 605,000 to go!

[Dale Emery]

"Do not use style elements or sections breaks."

I thought # was used between sections to indicate (typically) the passage of time (US convention).

Yes. The publisher means: Don't use the word processor's "Insert Section Break" feature to separate scenes or chapters.

Dale

[jst5150]

No, I can't. But you can. And, with the aid of your beta readers, you will.
Sorry. The dumb retired military guy in me is coming out. I'll get feedback from my betas as to how I wrote it. That'll tell me how about that component of the story, yes?

[Blue Sky]

8. If you can explain how to write a book, then you don't know how to write one. If you can write a book, then you won't be able to explain how you did it. It's stupid, but it's true.

Laughed and appreciated the honesty before and this time as well.

Btw: Picked up a used book by Jack London, The Star Rover, his last novel. Had no idea he wrote such a thing. I always think of Call of the Wild, White Fang, To Build a Fire, etc. from boyhood reading. A death-row inmate experiences other lives. It's so easy to fall into the story; the transitions into and out of other lives are smooth and simple. We're talking transmigration/reincarnation here--his other lives.

Jack London's take on our recurring curiosity regarding breaking chronology. Very nicely done imho.

[MiltonPope]

Euclid, I've seen more and more of that sort of thing lately. I always use the tab key as well (comes from half a lifetime of using a typewriter before shifting to computers and word processors). I've seen some publications asking writers to use 5 spaces instead of a tab or indent, It may have something to do with Word's embedded commands or with the way documents convert to text or rtf files.
If you have put the whole book in a single file, it's very quick to convert all paragraphs to the proper form for this publisher. For instance:

Delete all tab characters. In Word, Select All / Replace choose the More and Special buttons, and replace them with nothing.

Or delete five spaces at the start of the paragraph: Select All / Replace, enter ^p (that's two characters, caret and "p") plus the five spaces, and replace them with nothing.

Use the paragraph indent instead: Select all, then apply the Paragraph indent as someone (was it perle?) suggested above.

You can also fix inconsistent character names, common misspellings and inconsistent scene-change markers in the same way.

--Milton

[FOTSGreg]

MiltonPope, Yup, all of those work (and there are a few other tricks as well), but might require more than just rudimentary knowledge of your word processor's command language and capabilities (still, anyone using a word processing program ought to learn it on more than just a rudimentary level in my opinion saves a lot of time and struggle when you know how to eliminate excess white space for example than trying to go in and do it manually just to give one example (paragraphs are another)).

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, How do I stop the desire to "fiddle" with a book that is finished, has been finished, might still need a little (editorial) work, but is essentially fine the way it is, and get on with writing the next book?

One of my problems is that every time I put a section up for review by a bunch of science geeks they find something else that needs tweaking. I don't think the ordinary, non-science geek reader will even notice and might actually like the section (I know of a truck driver SF writer who liked it).

So, how do I get the science past the science geeks and get this work put behind me so I can get on to the next one (and get past the notion to fiddle with it)?

[smsarber]

Oh, this hurts my head... going out to buy a typewriter.:D

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, How do I stop the desire to "fiddle" with a book that is finished, has been finished, might still need a little (editorial) work, but is essentially fine the way it is, and get on with writing the next book?


Book's finished, right? Good as you can make it? You're putting in a comma in the morning and taking it out in the afternoon?

Okay. I'm giving you a deadline. Tomorrow or you have to give back the advance.

Put it in the mail tomorrow morning, go have lunch, roll a clean sheet of paper into your typewriter and get the first 250 words of your next pumped out before you go to bed.

There! That was easy, wasn't it?

[James D. Macdonald]

Books are never finished. They escape.

[smsarber]

Books are never finished. They escape.
:roll::ROFL::)

[euclid]

MiltonPope: I printed out your post about how to convert tabs to paragraph indents. I will now create a small file with some text (that I can afford to lose) and experiment with it. Thanks.

ETA: Tried all that. Managed to eliminate all tabs, but couldn't find "First line spacing" under format/paragraph/indents and spacing. My version of Word is 2003 (I think)

ETA2: I found it. It's there under Indentation / Special / First line / By: It suggested 1.27 cm and I went with that.

Thanks everybody.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, Books are never finished. They escape.

I love it. I'm framing that one.

Yeah, the book's finished. Really all I'm doing now is fiddling with it as you said, a comma in the morning, taking it out in the evening, futzing with the wording, etc., etc., endlessly.

No advance or anything yet (not even an offer, but that's because I've been fiddling with it for so long). I do have a query and the first 14 pages out to an agent...

[James D. Macdonald]

No advance or anything yet (not even an offer, but that's because I've been fiddling with it for so long). I do have a query and the first 14 pages out to an agent...

I'm just saying, pretend there's an advance. Then you really will have to send in what you have on the day.

Meanwhile, it's perfectly okay to query several agents at the same time.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, I grok what you're saying.

I'm still framing your previous statement and hanging it on my wall (it'll sit right up there with "One damned thing after another is a perfectly good plot".

Now, while I'm looking the other way, my completed book will escape and inflict itself upon the world...

[FOTSGreg]

I've been reading David Gerrold's book Worlds Of Wonder: How To Write Science Fiction & Fantasy the last few days during my copious amounts of free time when not writing myself and I think Gerrold has pegged some really fine elements of storycrafting that other writers of "how to" books have not.

Now, I like Gerrold, for the most part, and have even met and corresponded with him extensively back in the 80s and early 90s so I might be biased.

Dave mentions The Law of Polymurphic Progression which I recently ran headlong into with some friends of mine over at the Analog forum. Basically, this law states that Murphy's Law polymorphs. The more attention you pay to a problem, the more complex it becomes. At some point, the problem becomes so complex it becomes unresolvable.

I had this problem concerning a scene in a science fiction novel where I discuss the basics of photosynthesis which is essentially an info-dump. A couple of the forumites liked it, but then the science whizzes got going on the problem (again), picking the problem apart in detail until it was impossible to solve (if it were possible to solve, it wouldn't be science fiction and I'd be rich beyond the dreams of avarice, probably win the Nobel Prize for ushering in a new hydrogen-economy, and wouldn;t be posting here much anymore).

The thing is, the people I originally consulted regarding the science, who are scientists themselves at a leading university, thought the science was plausible.

I realized today that the science in my fiction doesn't have to be 100% accurate. If it were I'd be writing textbooks and grant proposals not a novel. It just has to be reasonably plausible and entertaining to an acceptable number of readers. My book is, I hope. I hope the next one will be too.

Uncle Jim, Thanks for all those little slaps up side of my head and the kicks in the seat of the pants. This b*tch is on its way out the frakking door and I'm finishing up a couple of other WIPs and getting rolling on the next one asap.

BTW, I think Gerrold's book has some of the best advice on the emotionailty of writing as any I;ve ever read.

[James D. Macdonald]

Greg: This is the same story as we were discussing last August?

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2665399#post2665399

[smsarber]

I remember that discussion. I'm getting long in the tooth here...

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, That's the one (the same darned one I've been working on for 2-1/2 years). That section's changed substantially and is much less of an info-dump than it was at that time, but could probably still use a bit of tweaking.

I went so far as to do a realistic and accurate (as far as possible) diagram of how the process works in the story. The thing I looked at yesterday and realized was that while I might need to know that level of detail for the book, the readers don't necessarily want to know all that information if it takes away from the story and stops it dead in its tracks. That section might be better left out entirely since it results in so much discussion amongst the science types.

It's similar to when Larry Niven used the term "scrith" for the construction material used to build the ringworld in his famous novel. He didn't need to describe what scrith was, he just needed some exotic material that had the structural strength to make the ringworld. He probably had a darned good idea of what the material was and how it was created by the builders, but he didn't see the need to go into that level of detail about it.

I don't need to go into extreme detail regarding my process either I don't think, especially if it derails the story or stops it in its tracks.

[euclid]

I went back there and took a look at those earlier postings. I spotted one where someone asked about writing characters that the reader can connect with. Jim, your answer was that the characters need to be interesting.

This is maybe a SFF writer's answer to that question. My beta readers mostly come back to me and say "I couldn't connect with your MC." or "When your MC was hanging by one fingernail from that chandelier, I couldn't care whether she fell or not." or "Why can't you write sympathetic characters?"

I'm exaggerating, but you get my drift. If the genre is one where the reader needs to connect (emotionally) with the characters, how is this done?

[James D. Macdonald]

If the genre is one where the reader needs to connect (emotionally) with the characters, how is this done?

By making them interesting.

Do your characters:

a) Have free will?
b) Exercise it?
c) Have a reason for moving?
d) Move?
e) Interact with their environment and each other?
f) In a recognizably human way?
g) With a goal?
h) Which is either accomplished or not?
i) Causing some recognizably human reaction?

See also Mark Twain on the rules of literary art (http://www.pbs.org/marktwain/learnmore/writings_fenimore.html):

10. [The rules] require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones. But the reader of the Deerslayer tale dislikes the good people in it, is indifferent to the others, and wishes they would all get drowned together.

[euclid]

10. They require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones.

There's my problem. How to "make the reader love the good people..."
I think my characters are interesting, but loved and hated is another matter.

[Mr Clemens really had no time for Mr Cooper!]

[euclid]

I remember that discussion. I'm getting long in the tooth here...

Those are fangs, not teeth!

[smsarber]

No matter how nice or loving or genuine your character, make BAD things happen to them. That is life. Everything isn't hunky-dorey. A connection with a character runs deeper than that, though. But it's a good place to start. If your reader becomes bored with your character because nothing comprable to their own life is happening, they won't care if the fingernail loses its grip and she falls from the ceiling. Read Dean Koontz' "The Husband," and I think you will be able to see what I mean.

[Neversage]

It's hard to overstate this concept. My novel came alive as soon as I began trying to kill my protagonist.

[James D. Macdonald]

3.

This afternoon I was talking to George Scithers of the Owlswick agency, and toward the end of the conversation we got onto the subject of books about writing. He mentioned one I’ve never seen: On Writing Science Fiction: The Editors Strike Back, by George Scithers, Darrell Schweitzer, and John M. Ford (Owlswick Press, 1981, ISBN 0913896195).

I have to read this one.

Anyway, George told me the three rules of writing from their book:

1.You have to put it in a form someone can use.

2. You have to make it interesting enough to be worth the editor’s time and the reader’s money.

3. You have to put it where someone can read it and buy it.

That really does cover it. The best writing advice tends to be very simple. It’s using it that’s the trick.

Previously linked. (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006006.html) Now quoted for the benefit of folks who can't be bothered to follow links.

[MiltonPope]

It's similar to when Larry Niven used the term "scrith" for the construction material used to build the ringworld in his famous novel. He didn't need to describe what scrith was, he just needed some exotic material that had the structural strength to make the ringworld. He probably had a darned good idea of what the material was and how it was created by the builders, but he didn't see the need to go into that level of detail about it.

Inferring from a line in Ringworld's Children, I think Niven didn't originally realize just how strong scrith had to be. So in this book, one of the characters just points out that scrith has a tensile strength on the order of the strong nuclear force. The story goes on. Yes, it's a plot-hole filler. But this is RINGWORLD. No one cares!

Niven has written articles on how he compromises science for the sake of the story. His personal teleporters, for instance, didn't preserve angular momentum. (Well, he later figured out a way around this.) But Niven knows: the story comes first.

--Milton

[euclid]

Jim, I have a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style here. I got it from the library. They talk about small caps, for use in dates, for example 2009 A. D.

Does Word have small caps?

PS I, for one, always follow all your links.

ETA: I had a look in word / Format / Font and found small caps. So my question now is: does anybody actually use these - I mean should I be using them in my ms where the Chicago Manual says they should be used?

[Ken Schneider]

UJ, Can you tell us something about plot driven versus character driven novels?

I asked this because my wife brought up the topic about plot driven and character driven soap operas. She got me to thinking about the subject in novels.
Thanks.

[James D. Macdonald]

You show Small Caps with a double underline.

Single underline = italics
Double underline = Small Caps
Triple underline = CAPITALS
Wavy underline = boldface

You may also find copyeditors putting "Sm Caps" or "S.C." in the margin, circled, where there's a word in Small Caps. You may also use Small Caps for, for example, street signs, or labels on instrument panels.

That's more of a house style kind of thing.

There isn't (in my opinion) any such thing as a purely character-driven or a purely plot-driven story.

In character-driven stories the unique characters and their interactions push the plot along. In a plot-driven story the unique set of events pulls the characters along. Regardless, you'll want strong story.

[Judg]

Euclid, do a search for Jim Butcher's blog (which is for writers) and look for his posts on scene and sequel. He didn't invent the concepts or the terms, but he says that it's in the sequel part that the reader connects to the character. That's where we get inside his head, understand his feelings and his motivations. I suggest going through all the posts - there aren't that many. Even if you don't apply his ideas rigorously, they do give you a real feel for the structure of story. It helped me quite a bit.

[smsarber]

Here's the proper structure for any fiction story: Start with action, continue and increase 'till end.

Easy.

[James D. Macdonald]

Action may be interior, symbolic, or psychological.

[smsarber]

I do so love the interior, and/or, psychological action. Sometimes they are one in the same.

[smsarber]

See Uncle Jim... I'm learning!

[euclid]

You show Small Caps with a double underline.

Single underline = italics
Double underline = Small Caps
Triple underline = CAPITALS
Wavy underline = boldface


Jim,

When I need (normal) capitals in my ms, I use them (with the shift key): LIKE THIS
(Is this not the right thing to do?)
If I need to use small caps, couldn't I just use them?
I also use italics directly, as this seems to be preferred in the UK.
I have never used boldface.

[euclid]

Euclid, do a search for Jim Butcher's blog (which is for writers) and look for his posts on scene and sequel. He didn't invent the concepts or the terms, but he says that it's in the sequel part that the reader connects to the character. That's where we get inside his head, understand his feelings and his motivations. I suggest going through all the posts - there aren't that many. Even if you don't apply his ideas rigorously, they do give you a real feel for the structure of story. It helped me quite a bit.

Very helpful. It looks great. I've printed out the whole thing (29 pages of it!) and now I'm off to read it. Here's the link:

http://jimbutcher.livejournal.com/

[euclid]

Hey Judg, I've been reading Jim Butcher. Very illuminating.

I've written the Story Skeleton for my sequel and here it is:

When Special Branch woman, Anneliese, discovers that her father might still be alive, she sets out to follow his trail. Finding herself far from home, pitted against a ruthless international criminal gang working in league with a nest of nefarious neo-Nazis, will she uncover his fate and get out alive?

[euclid]

Yes, It's me again!

I read all of Jim Butcher's articles on writing craft. Then I read his posting where he quotes a lot of bad reviews of his books. Now I'm wondering if I should be listening to advice from this guy...

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid, While it might be blasphemy to mention it, I think everyone gets bad reviews from time to time, even Uncle Jim (Ack!).

Not everyone's going to like and/or appreciate what you or anyone else writes. The Big Names (like Uncle Jim, Jim Butcher, Stephen King, Robert Heinlein, and a host of others) might be especially vulnerable to "bad" reviews by people who have expectations of them that no one could attain. Their books are popular so they get reviewed more often and the chance of getting a bad review from someone who a) doesn't "get it", b) doesn't like their style or writing in the first place (and therefor probably shouldn't be reviewing those writer's books), c) just plain has a grudge or beef against the particular writer, or d) just plain doesn't know how to write a review in the first place.

I think bad reviews for books, movies, etc. should be viewed like rejections - they happen and most of the time the reviewer doesn't seem to have read the book they're ostensibly reviewing.

Heck, a bad review for a book or movie, in some cases, can act as a sort of "badge of honor" from some reviewers and critics and can even boost sales.

[euclid]

Yes, I agree, but these reviews rubbish his technique, his research, his characters, etc., etc., everything he talks about in his articles about writing.

What do you think about Mr Butcher's ideas on the "craft of writing", Jim?

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim,

When I need (normal) capitals in my ms, I use them (with the shift key): LIKE THIS
(Is this not the right thing to do?)


Yes, it's the right thing to do. When you get the galleys of your book back and you see "General Wyme was assigned to nato," you'll take your red pencil and triple-underline "nato." For that matter, if you see "General wyme was assigned to NATO," you'll triple-underline the "w" in "Wyme."

If I need to use small caps, couldn't I just use them?

You could. Then, when you get the galleys back and discover that they're set as either caps or small letters, you'd take your red pencil as above.

I also use italics directly, as this seems to be preferred in the UK.

Then, when you get your galleys back, and discover that the words you wanted to be set in italic were set in roman, you'd take your red pencil, as above....

I have never used boldface.

This was probably a good choice.

[James D. Macdonald]

What do you think about Mr Butcher's ideas on the "craft of writing", Jim?

I've never read what he had to say about the craft of writing. I am 100% sure, however, that whatever he says is completely true, for him.

[Judg]

Euclid, I've read a couple of Jim Butcher's books. They aren't particularly my cup of tea. For me the pacing is a little too frantic (breakneck is a word that applies) and I'm just not into vampires and werewolves and such. But all that is a question of personal taste. Still, his books are very readable, and I could very well read another couple.

I've read a lot of people's ideas on writing, and sometimes they seem to contradict each other. That's fine. I don't have to swallow 100% of what they say. But if they get me thinking consciously about what makes a story work, that can be a great help. I throw it all into my mental vat and let it stew.

Most of the time when I write a chapter, I just plunge right in and write it. I've got a decent concept of what I want to accomplish and away we go. But sometimes things don't seem to gel for me. That's when I start thinking about the concepts Butcher teaches. Who has a goal? Who gets in their way? How does it pan out? How does the protagonist react? How does everybody else react? What are they going to do as a result?

Whether you or I or anybody else likes Butcher's writing is kind of beside the question. I take the same principles and produce something very, very different. It's like chord sequences in a song. I can totally hate somebody's music, but if he's teaching me about chord structure in a certain key, it's true whether or not I like what he does with it. I can take the same musical principles and produce something entirely different. But we're still using the same underlying ideas.

So try structuring a scene the way he lays it out. See if it helps you. It will morph into something else in your hands than it would in his, but the only important question is "Does it help you write better?" I suggested it to you because you were wondering what to do to help readers connect with a character and I remember that he addressed that rather directly. So rewrite a chapter or two using especially the principles in the Sequel sections and see if your beta readers find they can connect better with your characters. If it helps, then keep it in your toolbox. If not, well, try something else. You'll learn something in the attempt.

[smsarber]

I've never read what he had to say about the craft of writing. I am 100% sure, however, that whatever he says is completely true, for him.
Isn't that the key, anyway? To find what is 100% [(true, right, acceptable, plausable, necessary, etc...) insert inspirational word of choice] for ourselves, and use that to light the fire that keeps our butts in our chairs, pounding away on the keyboard, watching our hair turn gray, until we can type the words "The End" on our babies and send them out into the world?





ps: As a side note, I have read in some places to never write "The End" on a manu. And I have read to always write "The End" on one. I do type it, but thought I'd ask the obvious Q. 'Is that proper?'

[James D. Macdonald]

I always write "The End."

[Berry]

If your story is sufficiently riveting that the editor has read all the way to the end, it's not going to be rejected just because you did or didn't type "THE END" at the end.

[James D. Macdonald]

I write "The End" so that, if someone accidentally drops the manuscript, they don't waste any time looking for missing pages.

[euclid]

I write "The End" so that, if someone accidentally drops the manuscript, they don't waste any time looking for missing pages.

Good point.

[Perle_Rare]

See Uncle Jim... I'm learning!

That's exellent! As for me, however, I've found that every time I think I have learnt something, I end up finding out I still have it all backwards... *sigh*

[smsarber]

sdrawkcaB= In your mind, now just sort it out!:Sun:

[James D. Macdonald]

I wonder if we could, perhaps, stick to commentary that's more closely allied to writing novels.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, You've probably gone over this before, but have you ever been editing a book of yours and realized you made a horrible mistake with a character and then had to go back and track down every reference to that character and scenes he's in or wherever he's mentioned and fix it all?

[James D. Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, You've probably gone over this before, but have you ever been editing a book of yours and realized you made a horrible mistake with a character and then had to go back and track down every reference to that character and scenes he's in or wherever he's mentioned and fix it all?


Oh, heck, I've done worse than that. Doyle and I once realized that we had a major scene missing from the middle of a novel while on the way to turn it in, followed by rewriting and printing out the entire book that same night. All the foreshadowing and all the consequences of the formerly missing scene having been added on the fly, rewriting the later chapters while the first ones were printing out (this being in the days of NLQ dot matrix on fan-fold paper, which was slow).

If you don't do it, you'll rue it.

[HConn]

Yes, I agree, but these reviews rubbish his technique, his research, his characters, etc., etc., everything he talks about in his articles about writing.

Euclid, did you read any of the 200+ comments?

Jim Butcher writes in the bestseller style--likable characters, villainous villains, lots of action scenes, fast pace, big finale, the whole deal. That's the sort of book that draws in a lot of detractors but even more readers. Many more.

But you know what? I'm not exactly unbiased, since Butcher blurbed my new book.

That said, if you're looking to get advice from a writer who's never had a detractor, well, good luck with that.

[Salis]

I write "and then a truck ran them over.

THE END

"

[euclid]

I wonder if we could, perhaps, stick to commentary that's more closely allied to writing novels.

Sincere apologies. That was my fault. Totally off topic.

[euclid]

I've ordered two books by Donald Maass: Writing the Breakout Novel and Fire in Fiction. Still looking for that elusive insight...

[motormind]

I've ordered two books by Donald Maass: Writing the Breakout Novel and Fire in Fiction. Still looking for that elusive insight...

I don't think Maass' books offer any of that. I also find it dismaying that he mostly quotes from some pretty awful novels.

[euclid]

Oh great.

Someone told me his "Writing the Breakout Novel" was "pretty much the bible for US writers".

[smsarber]

I don't know anything about Maass. Whatever he quotes from, they were obviously PUBLISHED novels, awful or not. That is subjective terminology. But Euclid, we've got a great tool for research, style-sharpening, character-building, plot-thickening, etc... right here. And it's even free.

[motormind]

Oh great.

Someone told me his "Writing the Breakout Novel" was "pretty much the bible for US writers".

In all fairness, Maass shows quite a bit of insight into the mechanics of modern published novels. What he has to say about micro-tension is very interesting, for one. Still, I remain convinced that knowing about it won't be of any immediate help when you start writing. That kind of knowledge is only effective if you can apply it without giving it much thought, either by having raw talent or by writing a whole lot until it starts dawning--or, as it usually turns out, both.

[euclid]

I think I have a pretty good grasp of writing craft now, thanks to Jim and others, a lot of careful reading and a whole lot of practice. Not so sure about talent. I feel a bit like a golfer who has learnt how to strike the ball true and straight, driver, 5-iron, wedge, putter, no problem. I know that the object of the game is to propel the ball from tee to green and into the hole. But no one has told me what it's all about really. No one has told me that I should be trying to get the ball into the hole in the least possible number of shots. Hmm, not a great analogy. Needs work.

[HConn]

Donald Maass offers another of his books as a free download: The Career Novelist: A Literary Agent Offers Strategies for Success (http://www.maassagency.com/books.html). It's interesting, especially the part where he contrasts his extremely successful authors with the more... er... moderately successful ones.

IMO, writing advice is great and useful, until I'd suddenly notice that all the advice was getting repetitive. I'd back away for a while, read other things, write a lot. Then I'd start seeking out advice again, and having learned and practiced a bunch, the advice would suddenly seem much deeper and more nuanced than I'd noticed previously.

I did this several times over the years: Back away from advice, then come back and find that it didn't mean quite what I'd thought.

As for talent, I think everyone should ignore it. In fact, I'd suggest you ignore anything you can't control, such as luck, market trends, talent, whatever. Pretend that working hard at your writing is the only thing that matters--it doesn't matter if that's true or not, because there's nothing else you can do.

[HConn]

BTW, if I were going to recommend a book to supplement what we all learn in this thread (and I am) it would be Stein On Writing: A Master Editor of Some of the Most Successful Writers of Our Century Shares His Craft Techniques and Strategies (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312254210?ie=UTF8&tag=twenpala-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0312254210).

How's that for a subtitle?

The advice in it was revelatory to me, but of course, each writer has different needs at different stages of the learning process. This book had just the right information at just the right time.

Still, it's worth checking out.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, Thanks for that answer. It's not exactly a good thing, but it's nice to know that even the Big Names occasionally flub something up (though, obviously in Uncle Jim's case not very often).

BTW, I know all about those dot matrix printers. I've used those and daisy wheels (you want to talk about noisy - try being in an office with one of those monsters while it's printing out a report).

As another aside, Daniel Hatch, over at the Analog forum, has been talking about the ultimate secrets to writing (tongue firmly in cheek, of course) and highly recommends 4 books - The Only Two Ways To Write A Story, Twenty Problems of the Fiction Writer, and Advanced Problems of the Fiction Writer, all by John Gallishaw (Putnam Publishing), and Character & Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card (Writers Digest Press).

I have How To Write Science Fiction by Card and I just finished Worlds of Wonder by David Gerrold, but I also liked The Editor Is In, The 10% Solution, and From Idea To Story in 90 Seconds all by Ken Rand.

[euclid]

Harry,

Checked out your web site. Looking forward to getting hold of a copy of your first book. How did you get Jim Butcher to review it?

PS I tried my local library for Jim Butcher's Dresden files. Never heard of him. Eddings, Brooks, Feist, Prachett, lots of others, but no Butcher.

[euclid]

There are an awful lot of books on (fiction) writing craft! I read in a blog somewhere that a lot of these books are written by folks who don't really know what they're talking about, having never published any fiction themselves. What's a struggling writer supposed to do? Every time the subject comes up (craft, plotting etc.) someone names yet another one (or several) of these books.

My bookcase is overflowing with them!

[euclid]

BTW, I know all about those dot matrix printers. I've used those and daisy wheels (you want to talk about noisy - try being in an office with one of those monsters while it's printing out a report).


I loved the way they would jam on the right margin, lose their CR/LF functionality and KEEP ON PRINTING until there was a black hole in the paper, and then PRINT SOME MORE.

Sometimes the CR (carriage return) would work, but without the LF (linefeed) so you'd get printing over and over the same line. Ah those were the days!

I worked on an ATLAS computer in London University in the sixties that took up a huge room and had one million bytes of memory! There were wires everywhere and it used to overheat.

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid, In addition to the ones by Ken Rand and David Gerrold, I have at least 15 more on my bookshelf. I don't own the one by Card mentioned by Hatch or any of the ones by Gallishaw. Of those 20 or so books, about 1 in 5 has something useful to say about the craft itself and only about 5 of them are by or edited by published authors we'd all likely recognize (Sue Grafton (ed), David Gerrold, Stephen King, Orson Scot.t Card, J.N. Williamson (ed)). Some of the others have well-known editors (such as Noah Lukeman), but I have several that sounded good at first blush and then pontificated their way right onto a dusty shelf where they've sat ever since (Alone With All That Could Happen by David Jauss, for example).

I think a novelist can learn a lot from just going on a fishing expedition once in awhile and picking something different off the bookstore shelves that just sounds interesting, but it's still hit or miss.

My most valued books on the craft are those that are esentially writing anthologies by published writers (How To Write Tales of Horror, Fantasy & Science Fiction and Writing Mysteries for example).

But what the heck do I know? I'm still working at breaking into this dirty business.

[euclid]

I'm still working at breaking into this dirty business.

Me too. I have two books by Noah Lukeman, one by Bickham (on shorts) and about 5 others, and as I think I've said, I have ordered 3 books by Maass.

These books all have something to contribute, no question. My problem is retaining it and, as Motormind says, making use of it all. Right now, I'm interested in plot and story, voice, pace and characterization. I want to trigger that emotional connection with the reader. I want to captivate her, to be able to make her cry, laugh, cheer and so on (most readers are women).

I am not writing SFF, although some of my shorts are. Sometimes I feel that there is a marked bias towards SFF in this thread, othertimes not so much. Anyway, most everything about writing good SFF applies across genres, I believe.

[HConn]

Harry,

Checked out your web site. Looking forward to getting hold of a copy of your first book. How did you get Jim Butcher to review it?

Several of the writers who blurbed my book were people I knew online, in one capacity or another. But I didn't know Jim Butcher from Adam, except I'd never had Adam sign one of his books for me.

It was my editor who asked him. His Dresden Files comic adaptations are published by Del Rey, so she had an in.

PS I tried my local library for Jim Butcher's Dresden files. Never heard of him. Eddings, Brooks, Feist, Prachett, lots of others, but no Butcher.

Really? His latest debuted at #1 of the NY Times bestseller list. Budgets are tight, though. Most of his books are out in mmpb, and you could probably find them used, too. The first in the series is Storm Front, but he's suggested people start with Dead Beat, seventh (?) in the series. It's mostly as standalone series, like mystery novels, so you don't have to read them in order.

I read in a blog somewhere that a lot of these books are written by folks who don't really know what they're talking about, having never published any fiction themselves. What's a struggling writer supposed to do?

Not only that, but some well-published writers don't teach very well. The book I recc'ed is from a respected writer and editor, but it's not for everyone.

Check your library's online catalog, I guess.

Oh, and I hope you like the book.

[euclid]

I live in Ireland. The pipeline for books across the Atlantic is quite thin and slow-moving.

[smsarber]

There is a saying: Those who can't do, teach. I think, however, when it comes to writing saleable product in the fiction world, it should be: Those who can't do, practice, and do some more.

Just because someone can write a book telling you how to set up a manuscript, write a synopsis and cover letter, query agents doesn't mean that book will help you if you're not taking matters into your own hands as well.

[James D. Macdonald]

What's a struggling writer supposed to do?

Write your damned novel.

If how-to-write books are standing between you and finishing your book, throw the how-to-write books out the window.

[Blue Sky]

Ha! Yes! Put in my time today, so I'm okay, but only for the moment. :)

My favorite is Stephen King's On Writing. I also enjoyed David Morrell's Lessons From a Lifetime of Writing: a novelist looks at his craft, which is not often mentioned. He writes quite differently from King, which gave me a fresh perspective.

My most useful writing book, since purchasing it sometime in the mid-eighties, has been Harry Shaw's 20 Steps to Better Writing. It's a thin book only 140 pages long. Shaw explains to the reader that rather than a grammer book, "it offers practical comment on the attitudes with which everyone should approach writing."

Originally printed in 1975, I have a 1982 reprint. If I had to pick only one book on writing, this would be my choice. Just the essentials, and the essentials are there. Shaw is/was a successful, published writer.

[FOTSGreg]

What Uncle Jim said. A "how to" book, in my opinion, should be looked at more in the vein of a "coach" than a hard & fast set of rules.

They might have good things to say, but 100% of it's not going to work for you all the time.

[smsarber]

Remember (it's the same thing that's been said here, and in most of those books) to take what you need and leave the rest. You have the tools to be a writer. Access them in whatever way works for you.

Some of the tools are attention to detail, listening to the people around you talk, and reading and writing a lot. You can read a thousand pages of writing how-to-books, but if you don't pay attention to the world around you, listen to others converse and go about their lives, and read and write a lot, well you probably won't make it far.

Those are not the only tools, of course. But really, they are. You can figure it out from there.

[Salis]

In my opinion, "how-to" books should be burned.

You can learn everything you need to write an amazing book by reading a lot as you grow up, and being old enough to have developed a work ethic*.




* A "OH GOD, MY LIFE IS 1/4 OF THE WAY OVER AND I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING YET" epiphany works just as well as a work ethic, in a pinch.

[euclid]

In my opinion, "how-to" books should be burned.

You can learn everything you need to write an amazing book by reading a lot as you grow up, and being old enough to have developed a work ethic*.




* A "OH GOD, MY LIFE IS 1/4 OF THE WAY OVER AND I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING YET" epiphany works just as well as a work ethic, in a pinch.

Try 6/7 :) in my case

[Salis]

Try 6/7 :)

Well, I'm sure I got the fractions wrong, considering it's unlikely I'll live to be 92, but hey.

[euclid]

Write your damned novel.

If how-to-write books are standing between you and finishing your book, throw the how-to-write books out the window.

That's a judgment call. That's the problem. How can I know when I have assimilated enough knowledge of the craft to write a publishable book?

Anyway, I haven't stopped writing. I wrote 1,500 words yesterday and plan 5,000 more by Thursday. Reading how-to books as I go.

Not enough hours in the day. I wish I didn't have to sleep, like some people! :)

How're the attendance numbers for Viable Paradise, btw? Just curious.

[K. Taylor]

Have commas before the word "too", as used at the end of a sentence, been banished? I've read a lot of published stuff lately with rare commas before "too". It's distracting, as my brain keeps wanting to reach for a pen and correct it.

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid wrote, How can I know when I have assimilated enough knowledge of the craft to write a publishable book?

When you sell the manuscript, I would think.

[smsarber]

no book should be burned, but some should be locked up!

[allenparker]

Have commas before the word "too", as used at the end of a sentence, been banished? I've read a lot of published stuff lately with rare commas before "too". It's distracting, as my brain keeps wanting to reach for a pen and correct it.

My wife took my pen away last night because I was correcting a book as I read.

Now, I have no room to talk, but it was a St Martin's Press book of a very popular person who had a good writing companion. There was no reason for the amount of problems that this book was suffering from. Simple English escaped them.

I thought at first, they were speaking Southern. I recognized the cadence and verbage, but as a long time speaker of Southern, I know Southern. This was not Southern.

I am, however, studying this book for all I am worth. After all, he did get St Martins to publish it.

just a thought...

[euclid]

Euclid wrote, How can I know when I have assimilated enough knowledge of the craft to write a publishable book?

When you sell the manuscript, I would think.

That's a circular argument, a paradox, a chicken and egg conundrum, an enigma wrapped in a mystery tied up with a Gordian knot. :)

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid wrote, That's a circular argument, a paradox, a chicken and egg conundrum, an enigma wrapped in a mystery tied up with a Gordian knot.

Seems to me that's a pretty good description of the publishing field, too.

<runs away very fast>

[HConn]

In my opinion, "how-to" books should be burned.

Oh, now. It's not that bad.

Nothing replaces the lessons learned by writing your own, but a good how-to can be very helpful.

This whole thread is a how-to, in its own style.

[euclid]

Euclid wrote, That's a circular argument, a paradox, a chicken and egg conundrum, an enigma wrapped in a mystery tied up with a Gordian knot.

Seems to me that's a pretty good description of the publishing field, too.

<runs away very fast>

Fair comment. As somebody said (about English soccer): "It's not a matter of life and death. It's much more serious than that."

Btw, and to steer this back on topic. I wrote 1,700 words today, and I may do some more before bedtime (it's 16:15 here now). It was easy - I reached the lap-dancing scene!

[FOTSGreg]

It's not novel-related, but I got a rejection from Weird Tales this morning for my story The Light Of An Oncoming Train.

I'm turning that puppy around and subbing it to the next publication on the list after a minor editorial pass this evening or tomorrow.

[James D. Macdonald]

I'm turning that puppy around and subbing it to the next publication on the list ....

Go, you!

Don't let a manuscript sleep over.

[FOTSGreg]

Thanks, Uncle Jim. I'm still going over the list trying to find a publication appropriate for the story that's also reading (it's detective thriller/horror/fantasy in the same vein (literally) as Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden (without the sorcery) or maybe Fred Saberhagen's Dracula Files (with the vampire)). It's the intro story for my Quentin Dallas work (I'm writing the next story in the sequence currently and plotting the third (plotting in this case mostly means doing the background research for the weird stuff).

TLOAOT was previously rejected by F&SF, but will go out this afternoon if I have to kill somebody doing it.

:)

It went out a few minutes ago to IGMS, Pseudopod, GUD, and ElectricSpec.

[smsarber]

Euclid, I want to update on my recommendation about characters. I said to read Dean Koontz The Husband. But really any Koontz is good for it, he is, in my opinion, a master at creating characters. Some people will not agree with me, naturally, but they come to life with humor, realistic goals and aspirations, and the way they battle hardships. But my new recommendation is Life Expectancy. I'm reading it for the second time right now, and it's one of those books were I feel like I really know the MC. Others I've felt that way about are, Fear Nothing, The Good Guy, Odd Thomas, Forever Odd & Brother Odd. And I know horror isn't your thing, but Koontz is not a horror writer so much as a thriller/mainstream/fantasy/sci-fi kind of author (Fear Nothing being the closest to horror out of those books). If you read Koontz, and study how he builds his characters it could help you more than a hundred help-books. You can also read Tick Tock if you want thriller/sci-fi & slapstick comedy;)

[euclid]

I've read a couple of Brother Odd books. Koontz's characters do have a warmth about them that's hard to define. I have another one of his somewhere... Darkfall. I think I've read it already. I seem to remember a very long (rather pointless) chase. I'll take another look at the early chapters for character build up. Thanks.

[Admiral Snuggles]

BTW, if I were going to recommend a book to supplement what we all learn in this thread (and I am) it would be Stein On Writing: A Master Editor of Some of the Most Successful Writers of Our Century Shares His Craft Techniques and Strategies (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312254210?ie=UTF8&tag=twenpala-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0312254210).

How's that for a subtitle?

The advice in it was revelatory to me, but of course, each writer has different needs at different stages of the learning process. This book had just the right information at just the right time.

Still, it's worth checking out.

Checked this out from the library and I'm 3 chapters in. The guy seems more sensible than Stephen Koch's Writer's Workshop, and more interesting than Ayn Rand's horribly dry On Writing.

So, I'm glad a found a book that works for me, but nothing substitutes practice, as Stein so sagely puts and Uncle J has monstrated in so many ways. Back to finishing my novel.

[euclid]

I'm reading "How to Tell a Story" by Peter Rubie and Gary Provost, while waiting for Donald Maass's two books to turn up from Amazon. I'm half way through it.

[euclid]

Checked out Darkfall by Koontz. It reads like a classic hard-boiled detective story at the beginning, so there's not much characterization going on, really.

[smsarber]

Haven't read that one, it's an older one, if I'm correct--I think he achieved the grace of writing good-better-best characters around '98 when Fear Nothing was published. Twenty-two years into his career. Which gives me hope. Because I hope to always keep growing as a writer, seeing a well-known and accomplished author growing and improving throughout his career is good. It seems some writers just hit a peak, and stay on that level. Koontz, King, Kellermann, Straub (and many others) continue to better their approach to novel-writing. Even though I know Koontz is most likely going to have a dog (usually a Golden Retriever) in his books, some kind of paranormal activity, and a lot of wisecracks, it's usually not boring (to me). But I'm biased--more than any other author I've read he's the one who put the fire in me to start writing. Of course, to each his/her own;)

[xXFireSpiritXx]

In the very beginning of this thread it was mentioned for submission to use 10-12 pt. Courier font. Now, that was back in 2003. Is Courier still the font of choice or has Times New Roman taken over? I have seen many sites contradicting themselves and I was wondering what is being used now.

[smsarber]

Uncle Jim uses Courier. I was using Times New Roman, but have recently switched to Courier. Both are widely accepted, because you want a font (I can't remember the term right now) where the letters are uniform: "I" takes up the same space as "S," and so forth.

ps, this post was in Times

[Blue Sky]

What Uncle Jim said. A "how to" book, in my opinion, should be looked at more in the vein of a "coach" than a hard & fast set of rules.

They might have good things to say, but 100% of it's not going to work for you all the time.

Yes, I agree. My fav little writing book was written when saying "should" was okay. Maybe the guy was a master of his trade, we would think. Then we'd do whatever the heck anyhoo. :)

After years of putting it off, I just read Ray Bradbury's Zen in the Art of Writing: Releasing the Creative Genius Withing You. Very simple, inspiring and accurate in my experience. Although I'm working toward being a published writer I learned what Bradbury says in this little book elsewhere. My writing process is quite similar to his. How fun.

Now for the millions of words he wrote before writing what he considered his first good, original story.

[smsarber]

Did I miss the memo? We can't say "should" anymore? What other words are illegal?

[euclid]

Did I miss the memo? We can't say "should" anymore? What other words are illegal?

Pay attention, grasshopper

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Um, what is wrong with the word should or could or would? Unless many many authors are making huge mistakes, many of the books I have read recently use these words. To cite some: the newest Anita Blake by Laurell K. Hamilton, Kim Harrison's Rachel Morgan novels, the Twilight Saga, and several others.

To me that is saying using the word had is a no no too, when numerous recently published books out there use it. I write mainly in the first person, it is inevitable that my MC will use had or should.

I personally believe it is all dependent on a person's style and voice when writing. I recently posted on SYW forum and believe most of the criticism was based on my style. I went and read some of the work posted those who critiqued and found I honestly did not prefer the way they wrote either.

I think in the end it all comes down to opinions and we take and leave what we want.

[euclid]

Hi Jason. I don't think anyone is suggesting that any word shouldn't be used. I could be wrong, of course, and maybe we should wait until Blue Sky explains what he/she had in mind.

I picked up some gratuitous "self-editing tips" from a publisher's web site which, if taken to extremes, could stop me writing anything longer than a three word sentence!

http://www.lyricalpress.com/submissions

"Unnecessary words: Common offenders are that, had, and, really, very, little, then, and then, just, about, against, so, all, but, like and was/were."

No sign of "should" in that list.

:)

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Okay, I was just wondering because it seemed kind of extreme. Wow, Lyrical's list is a bit heavy. I think those words are fine if used sparingly. My first drafts usually are chock full of them and during the rewrite I search and eliminate.

I will say when it comes to the word "was" it is almost unavoidable when writing in the first person perspective.

[James D. Macdonald]

There is no word that you shouldn't use if it's the right word.

Courier is a non-proportional font. Times Roman is a proportional font.

[euclid]

I will say when it comes to the word "was" it is almost unavoidable when writing in the first person perspective.

Forget "almost" and you can remove the last five words as well.

My own view is that this sort of list is of very limited value. You have to write what you write. Okay, the editing process should help weed out unnecessary words, but the context is all important. Saying was/were should be avoided is just plain silly (and unhelpful) in my view. The verb to be is a critical element of the English language. I know if I really tried to avoid the words on that list, my writing would be stilted and probably unreadable.

(Who said that?)

[Blue Sky]

Um, what is wrong with the word should or could or would? ... I think in the end it all comes down to opinions and we take and leave what we want.

I commented tongue-in-cheek with political correctness in mind. However, your--y'all's--question(s) sparked something just the same. Btw: I'm a he, but not of Yoda's species. I just think he's cool; even a fuzzy pic of Yoda rates highly with me.

(I did notice how Jim used shouldn't.) :)

Just kidding!

[smsarber]

Should is not politically correct? Political correctness refers to saying "Little Person" or "Dwarf" instead of "midget," or "disabled" instead of "handicapped" or "crippled." But I think I know what you're saying; that particular words are seen as lazy and are, at best, less-acceptable in modern commercial writing.

[Blue Sky]

Forget "almost" and you can remove the last five words as well.

My own view....

I respect your views and those of others and I'm glad that we can share them freely.

Saying was/were should be avoided is just plain silly (and unhelpful) in my view. The verb to be is a critical element of the English language. I know if I really tried to avoid the words on that list, my writing would be stilted and probably unreadable.

Looks like the guidelines mean inappropriate usage, perhaps overusage.

When the verb forms "am, is, was, will be, etc." beckon, I check my bobber floating on comfortable surface habits. Perhaps a lunker verb nibbles? By using specific verbs habitually, the verb "to be" pops when I decide to use it after all. This and using prepositional phrases sparingly works wonders for my writing.

I'm not a successfully published, professional writer, however. Maybe Jim will comment?

[Blue Sky]

Should is not politically correct? Political correctness refers to saying "Little Person" or "Dwarf" instead of "midget," or "disabled" instead of "handicapped" or "crippled." But I think I know what you're saying; that particular words are seen as lazy and are, at best, less-acceptable in modern commercial writing.

In some circles, authors, speakers and even parents telling us what we should or shouldn't do is seen as being politically incorrect. Poor "should" committed no crime, but stands meek witness to my drowned, bloating attempt at humor.

[smsarber]

baby in arms, no caps this post... i think i can see why a word like should might be seen as unacceptable--in text. it could be construed as presumtuous or preachy: "you should believe this," "you should live like that." but to me, all bets are off in dialogue. in dialogue our job is to create character speech that is true-to-life. real people say had, should, that, really, was,... but i could be wrong.

while i was typing this blue sky commented: i got it, thanks!

[FOTSGreg]

Geroold discusses the verb "to be" in a chapter of his book mentioned above. He claims that he wrote his Covenant of Justice duology using a technique called E-Prime which avoids using "to be" in any manner. He states that the E-Prime evangelists say that "language infected with being has a flat and unexciting quality." (David Gerrold, Worlds of Wonder, p197). In addition, he gives the following list of words that can be searched for to eliminate the verb,

am, is, are, was, were, be, been, being, become

(Worlds of Wonder, p198-199)

[euclid]

Should is not politically correct? Political correctness refers to saying "Little Person" or "Dwarf" instead of "midget,"

Vertically challenged is the pc term now, I believe.

Blue: when I said that telling people they should avoid the verb to be was unhelpful, that was not aimed at you (not even vaguely). It was aimed at those who write about writing.

If we remove all the naughty words from that last paragraph (including anything ending in "ing" and adverbs) we get:

"When I said people they should avoid the verb to be unhelpful, not aimed at you (not). It aimed at those who write."

[euclid]

Geroold discusses the verb "to be" in a chapter of his book mentioned above. He claims that he wrote his Covenant of Justice duology using a technique called E-Prime which avoids using "to be" in any manner. He states that the E-Prime evangelists say that "language infected with being has a flat and unexciting quality." (David Gerrold, Worlds of Wonder, p197). In addition, he gives the following list of words that can be searched for to eliminate the verb,

am, is, are, was, were, be, been, being, become

(Worlds of Wonder, p198-199)

...really interesting. I'd like to read something written using that technique. I'm off to the library...

[Blue Sky]

Vertically challenged is the pc term now, I believe.

Blue: when I said that telling people they should avoid the verb to be was unhelpful, that was not aimed at you (not even vaguely). It was aimed at those who write about writing.

If we remove all the naughty words from that last paragraph (including anything ending in "ing" and adverbs) we get:

"When I said people they should avoid the verb to be unhelpful, not aimed at you (not). It aimed at those who write."

I didn't take it that way. I'm easygoing. You touched on something that changed my writing years ago, with a follow-on recently. Wow. What a difference. Felt like commenting in case a lurker too lazy--uh, er, energy-challenged--to read the entire thread wondered.

Funny, a friend and I were talking yesterday and I wondered aloud how the bums in the park were doing. My friend and I were driving past. "If I was a bum, I'd want to be called a bum," I said. "Homeless? What about the trees and grass?"

Although I use the term homeless and other value-judgement-lacking terms, if you come upon me as a homeless man, please refer to me as a bum! A few Native American friends of mine surprised me when they voiced similar feelings about the word "Indian."

Guess there's room for both with respect.

Have fun at the library Euclid. I'm off to Zzzzzland after working my night shift.

[euclid]

US Words for a bum:

Tramp
Transient
Drifter
Hobo
Wino
Homeless person

Are there others?

[euclid]

Nothing by David Gerrold in our local library. A search of all libraries in the country gave me a few hits, but no sign of his A Covenant of Justice or Under the Eye of God. I've asked the library staff to see if they can source a copy of one or the other for me.

[euclid]

Jim, Reading between the lines, I think you have little time for those who believe that the structure of plot (say a thriller) can be described in a formula. I believe you have said, "This happened, followed by that, followed by something else" is a perfectly good plot (paraphrasing here).

Am I right?

[smsarber]

Vertically challenged, yes, you're right. Dwarvism (that just doesn't look right) is the medical terminology.


Hey, Uncle Jim,
Have you ever thought of compiling the nuggets of gold in this thread into a book on writing? It could be a useful, lighthearted but informative, and lucrative venture. But it's just a thought.

[Dale Emery]

US Words for a bum:

Tramp
Transient
Drifter
Hobo
Wino
Homeless person

Are there others?

Vagrant
Daddy

[ChristineR]

All of those terms (dwarf, midget, little person) have different meanings, and only midget is considering offensive (because of its historical use in sideshows), and even it is kind of borderline. Some people use midget for certain types of dwarfism and dwarf for other types. Some people avoid dwarf because it has echos of Middle Earth. Vertically challenged is a joke, as is PC, really. Little person is the closest to a neutral, unconfused term.

You can use any that you want to and that fit, but don't blame your choice on the non-existent PC mafia.

[smsarber]

Yeah, Christine, that's very true. Do any of you ever feel weird (at least early on in your writing careers) if you have a situation in a work that calls for racism or something else that falls into the "touchy subject" category? In my work, "A Birthday Suicide," one of the the main characters is a black man. He's a crime boss, but that's not relevent here. His cousin is murdered by her methhead boyfriend, who writes "Cheatin' n****r b***h," on the wall in her blood. I don't personally like the "n" word, even when the situation calls for it in a WIP. But the methhead's character is what most of us would call pure white trash, so it felt like what he would say. Still, it falls into the category of: I don't want to feel like I promote that kind of thing. Of course, it's fiction. So I'm getting over worrying about that kind of stuff. I just want my characters to be real.

[vox]

US Words for a bum:

Tramp
Transient
Drifter
Hobo
Wino
Homeless person

Are there others?

Itinerant refuse harvester ;)

[Scribhneoir]

Hey, Uncle Jim,
Have you ever thought of compiling the nuggets of gold in this thread into a book on writing? It could be a useful, lighthearted but informative, and lucrative venture. But it's just a thought.

See post 6263 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1406797&postcount=6263) on page 251 of this thread.

[euclid]

Vagrant
Daddy

Daddy? Is that a Dale-joke?
How about:

Vet

[Dale Emery]

Daddy? Is that a Dale-joke?

I'm gonna go with "yes."

[euclid]

All of those terms (dwarf, midget, little person) have different meanings, and only midget is considering offensive (because of its historical use in sideshows), and even it is kind of borderline. Some people use midget for certain types of dwarfism and dwarf for other types. Some people avoid dwarf because it has echos of Middle Earth. Vertically challenged is a joke, as is PC, really. Little person is the closest to a neutral, unconfused term.

You can use any that you want to and that fit, but don't blame your choice on the non-existent PC mafia.

My brother is follically challenged. I am chronologically (and economically) challenged.

I think we've wandered off topic again, so in an effort to re-rail:

I bought 2 more books today, looking for inspiration on plot structure for my new book: Sail by James Patterson (and Howard Roughan) and The Business by Martina Cole.

[smsarber]

See post 6263 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1406797&postcount=6263) on page 251 of this thread.
Well, I see the seed has already been planted;)

[ChristineR]

I have a character in my WIP who's not only schizophrenic, he's anti-Semitic. He rants. I'm debating toning him down, although more level headed characters disagree with him passionately enough.

The thing is, if you're going to write about people who live at these extremes, they're going to use extreme language. If you could murder a woman and write in her blood, you're not going to write "adulterous African American." Ain't gonna happen.

You can always write it from the POV of a more sympathetic character, who can refer to it as n***** b**** or only talk about it indirectly. That helps.

[smsarber]

Yeah, it does. It is indirect, and the MC is certainly aghast at the brutality of that situation (saying a lot, because he's a hit-man). Like I said, I feel weird in a way, but it really fits the profile of that particular character.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

My MC in my current work is sadistic, twisted, and brutally murders without regret. It has been a very interesting journey I must say.

[Judg]

As for the should/could/would thing, it's not that these words shouldn't be used, but they can be flabby. "He could see the light burning on the end of her wharf" could easily become "He saw the light burning on the end of her wharf" (If he COULD see it, he DID see it. Is it important to point out that he isn't blind?) or "the light on the end of her wharf burned well into the night" (Is it really all that necessary to point out that he was committing the act of seeing?)

Part of my editing process consists of going through a long list of words and doing a "search and challenge". I don't automatically replace them, because sometimes they are the best way to say exactly what I want to say. Often they are flabby, and then I rewrite the sentence. Going through that entire list on my last book eliminated about 7000 words, with flabby "to be" verbs being the biggest offenders. The net effect was like cleaning a window. Everything just seemed brighter and crisper. It was worth it.

[rupert]

Hi Uncle Jim:

I'm coming late to the party, but I have been enjoying your posts, starting back with page 1 (I'm now at page 32), and I wanted to say thank you.

Occasionally, I teach Trial Techniques at the local law school. During my classes, I don't "teach" them anything, but I give them real life exercises (real witnesses to cross-examine, etc.) and require them to keep a "book" of the "rules" they have learned. Here are some of the rules they typically infer:

1. The first words the jury will hear will be your opening statement. They will remember them throughout the trial. Craft them carefully. In your first three sentences, explain in human terms why you win.

2. If every question you ask advances your case, and everyone can see why, then everyone on the jury will always listen to you. If some of your questions do not advance your case, then the jury will daydream when you talk (because the judge won't let them get up and walk away).

3. Never go off on a tangent unless it supports your case. A tangent does not support your case just because it shows the other guy is a bad dude. For a tangent to be worthwhile, it must show both that the other guy is a bad dude, AND he probably caused the disaster at the root of the lawsuit.

4. Listen to testimony with a "jury ear." You know thousands of facts they don't know and never will, and none of them count. The only facts that count are the ones they hear.

5. Have your witness give his "big" testimony as soon after he sits down as possible, but not before the jury knows exactly the kind of person he is. Find a way to show what kind of person he is (how he talks, and some minor thing he has done) BEFORE his big moment.

6. Understand that the "bad guy" will never admit he is the bad guy and if you argue with him about it, it is possible, in some jurors' eyes, he will win the argument! Instead, make him admit what he DID, then stop. Don't give him the chance to explain why it is okay. Leave him believing he is not the "bad guy;" your cross of him is just about what he DID.

7. You (the attorney) are a character in the play who must appear to be trying as hard as possible to NOT be a character in the play.

8. Arguments don't persuade people; arguments annoy people. Human stories persuade people. Tell a better story about what happened, win the lawsuit.

I could go on, but I think you can see why I think I need to advise my students to stop asking me questions and start reading "Learning to Write With Uncle Jim." (I used to advise them to stop asking me questions and read chess theory).

With much gratitude for a fabulous thread,

Rupert

[Ken Schneider]

[quote=smsarber;3763242]Hey, Uncle Jim,
Have you ever thought of compiling the nuggets of gold in this thread into a book on writing?


I wish I had a penny for everytime this question has been asked.

[James D. Macdonald]

(I used to advise them to stop asking me questions and read chess theory).



Keep going in the thread, Rupert. Before long you'll find me advising young writers to read chess theory.

Oh, and welcome.


I wish I had a penny for everytime this question has been asked.

So do I, brother. So do I.

[rupert]

Hi again Uncle Jim:

I did see where you advised them to study chess theory, and I really did used to advise the same thing. That was what got me thinking about the similarities.

Again, thanks,

Rupert

[smsarber]

So do I, brother. So do I.

Then write the book, you'll get more than just nickels;)

Oooh, and give us all co-writing credits, so we can get shiny nickels ourselves *wink, laff*

[James D. Macdonald]

I took the posts here, just mine, at one point. They come to over a thousand pages in manuscript format.

My co-author (in her copious free time) is editing it down to ... something reasonable.

We'll see.

A big part of my reluctance to actually write such a book is because writing how-to-write books is often a passtime indulged in by writers whose careers have cratered on the runway. It's like methadone that way. It takes some of the edge off the writing jones without being really writing.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hi again Uncle Jim:

I did see where you advised them to study chess theory, and I really did used to advise the same thing. That was what got me thinking about the similarities.

Again, thanks,

Rupert

And I am so totally in agreement with your comments on What Lawyers Should Know About Storytelling. Humans define themselves by story. We writers are the ones who tell our readers what it's like to be human.

And the rules of narrative are the same. Fiction, non-fiction -- the difference is in where the lies are coming from. We fictioneers tell our own lies. The non-fiction writers tell someone else's lies.

[smsarber]

A big part of my reluctance to actually write such a book is because writing how-to-write books is often a passtime indulged in by writers whose careers have cratered on the runway. It's like methadone that way. It takes some of the edge off the writing jones without being really writing.

I think that's why, when Stephen King was asked to do his "On Writing," he did it as a memoir, with some pearls of wisdom, or turds of supposition (depending on the readers viewpoint of King's writing) thrown in. But if you have over a thousand pages you wouldn't have any room to add in any autobiographical stuff. Unless you made it an encyclopedia for the novel writer. Oooh, good ideas percolating. Okay, maybe not good, but you know, it could work. Volume One: The First Drafts, Volume Two: Editing, Volume Three: Polishing, Volume Four: Finding Representation and Getting Published.

[euclid]

As for the should/could/would thing, it's not that these words shouldn't be used, but they can be flabby. "He could see the light burning on the end of her wharf" could easily become "He saw the light burning on the end of her wharf" (If he COULD see it, he DID see it. Is it important to point out that he isn't blind?) or "the light on the end of her wharf burned well into the night" (Is it really all that necessary to point out that he was committing the act of seeing?)

Part of my editing process consists of going through a long list of words and doing a "search and challenge". I don't automatically replace them, because sometimes they are the best way to say exactly what I want to say. Often they are flabby, and then I rewrite the sentence. Going through that entire list on my last book eliminated about 7000 words, with flabby "to be" verbs being the biggest offenders. The net effect was like cleaning a window. Everything just seemed brighter and crisper. It was worth it.

Hi Judg,

That part of your editing process sounds inspired. I bet it requires great patience! What I do is probably the step before that - removing neoplasms (I think that's what they're called) like I sat up at the table. My current WIP is already like a clean window (I think) because of what I've learnt here and by reading, but I will certainly get out the Windowlene before I'm finished polishing it!

I would argue with you about the first part of your post.

He could see the light burning on the end of her wharf.

is not the same as:

The light on the end of her wharf burned well into the night.

In the first sentence the implication might be that the light was distant or difficult to see for some reason. Also, he could see connects the reader with the protagonist in a way that the plain description of the light does not.

"well into the night" is additional information, not in the first sentence. It seems to be there for the sole purpose of avoiding using was.

The light on the end of her wharf was burning.

is perfectly fine if there is no reason to suppose that it might be difficult to see, or connecting the reader with the protagonist is not required here.

imo of course. :)

[Blue Sky]

Euclid: Did you mean to say pleonasms: redundant words? I looked up neoplasm because it sounded cellular. A neoplasm is an abnormal formation or growth of tissue. If you are creating neoplasms by typing at a computer, I suggest you are wasting your time pursuing a writing career. Make some zombies. For ideas read Girl Genius.

Kidding! After the last joke went haywire, thought it best to say so.

Judg: Your examples struck me. They struck me like wet fish!

Are you describing a male firefly observing his love interest?

With a few changes:

The light on the end of her wharf was burning--he could see the light burning on the end of her wharf. The light on the end of her wharf burned well into the night.

So fun how they fit together like that! Future bestseller? :)

Is the Muse peeking out while you share? This and the crotchety school teacher from earlier in the thread feel fun. The dog-turd-studded lawn? Indelibly etched in my memory, thank you very much. What's trying to get out?

This thread is about commercially viable fiction. You're walking the writers walk, so what's coming in support? What's the Muse offering here? I'm having fun, but I'm also serious. Dontcha need a fantastic story?

That's how my best ideas bubble out of me.

Btw: In my case a resounding QFT the polishing you described. I sigh when I look at hundreds of pages needing a polish, but like you said, it's always been worth it!

[allenparker]

A big part of my reluctance to actually write such a book is because writing how-to-write books is often a passtime indulged in by writers whose careers have cratered on the runway. It's like methadone that way. It takes some of the edge off the writing jones without being really writing.

There is a difference in the person who teaches. I am not a believer in those who can, do and those who can't. teach.

I look forward to your take on writing. In the few short years I have been reading this thread, I have learned much. I also have witnessed others growing as writers. I can be convinced it is in part due to this thread and the writers who offer there advice freely to us.

The difference in the books I have read so far and what I expect this to become is that your book will be proven. There is a track record.

Lastly, having the book in a completed, edited, and packaged form will, in and of itself, be an example of what a writer should strive for.

That said, I reserve the right to throw said book across the room should I be wrong.

So, count me in the first printing. AND, I want mine autographed so that if I should toss the book across the room, others will accuse me of throwing your name around. I'll look like such a big shot.

[Judg]

He could see the light burning on the end of her wharf.

is not the same as:

The light on the end of her wharf burned well into the night.

In the first sentence the implication might be that the light was distant or difficult to see for some reason. Also, he could see connects the reader with the protagonist in a way that the plain description of the light does not.

"well into the night" is additional information, not in the first sentence. It seems to be there for the sole purpose of avoiding using was.

The light on the end of her wharf was burning.

is perfectly fine if there is no reason to suppose that it might be difficult to see, or connecting the reader with the protagonist is not required here.

imo of course. :)Actually, you pretty much got my point. So often we say "he could see" when the ability to see is not what we're really trying to say. If that aspect is important, by all means leave it in. That's why I do a search and challenge, not search and replace. If the "could" is adding something important, it survives the challenge. It's amazing how often it doesn't matter though, in which case it doesn't survive the challenge. If you're writing in third person limited, any sensory information is assumed to be taken in by the viewpoint character, so there's no need to mention it at all unless the act of perceiving itself matters.

It's like the passive voice. It should not be eliminated wherever it occurs. It exists for a reason and when it's used for that reason (like in the last two sentences), it's the best way of saying things. We use the passive to put the emphasis on what is happening and not on who is doing it. Used for other purposes, it sounds like bureaucrat-speak, which is not what we usually want when writing fiction.

[euclid]

Judg: would you be prepared to share your "long list of words"?

Neoplasms / Pleonasms brilliant anagram. Pleonasms are obviously the literary equivalent of neoplasms - extra wordy growths and nodules that need to be excised!

[FOTSGreg]

Mr. Jason Yarn with Paradigm Talent Agency turned down the chance to represent my book Hatchings. He did say that he enjoyed the 1950s monster movie tone to the book, but it just wasn't for him.

I've had worse things said about my book and he's only the 6th or 7th agent I've contacted so I've got a lot more to go through. Most of the previous ones contacted didn't even want to look at a partial.

So, next week, it's collect the email addresses of a dozen or so others and start really slinging this puppy.

[Calliopenjo]

Have a Happy and Safe July 4th Celebration! :partyguy:

[James D. Macdonald]

I posted in another thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3767333&postcount=47), but I figure y'all will be interested too:



There are also two increasingly common factors in UK publishing which may/may not be applicable in the US. The first is sliding-scale royalties - ie 10% for the first miserable couple thousand, then up to 15%, and even to 20% if you sell enough of the things. If the original article had applied a system like this (which any decent agent should be able to get you in the UK) the math would have come out very, very differently.

Very common in the US too. I've had 'em on books since I've been writing, and that's been over twenty years.

The second is relatively new, which is the bonus system. One of the publishers interested in my book offered a system whereby certain sales levels would earn me a bonus independent of royalties - ie string-free money over and above the percentage of the book price I'd get as agreed in the contract.

They're called "escalators" here, and they click in for things like "Author appeared on The Tonight Show, $X. Book is on the New York Times Best Seller List in the Top Ten for more than six weeks, $X. Book made into a movie that opens in the top ten, $X." And so on.

Now here's the deal on that "Low Advance, High Royalty" idea, and why it's a cruddy one for authors:

First, you have to understand that books become profitable for the publisher long before the advance earns out.

Second, you have to understand that it is not unknown, right here and now, for publishers to set print runs so that it is mathematically impossible for the book to earn out, even if every single copy sells. The advantage for them is that they have a predictable profit. Makes planning easier.

They make their predicted profit, the book goes out of print and reverts, and they go on to publish other books without the hassle of cutting small checks every six months. The publishers are happy.

What happens with the Low Advance High Royalties plan? The publisher pays the low advance, sets the print run to a point where it is still mathematically impossible for the book to earn out even if all the copies sell, they make their predicted profit, plus the added profit from paying the lower advance. The book goes out of print and reverts. The publishers are even happier!

[Admiral Snuggles]

If you're writing in third person limited, any sensory information is assumed to be taken in by the viewpoint character, so there's no need to mention it at all unless the act of perceiving itself matters.


Hey, thanks for that. Something I've been wondering about lately. Helpful advice for my first editing run-through.

[Ken Schneider]

Second, you have to understand that it is not unknown, right here and now, for publishers to set print runs so that it is mathematically impossible for the book to earn out, even if every single copy sells. The advantage for them is that they have a predictable profit. Makes planning easier.

They make their predicted profit, the book goes out of print and reverts, and they go on to publish other books without the hassle of cutting small checks every six months. The publishers are happy.

What happens with the Low Advance High Royalties plan? The publisher pays the low advance, sets the print run to a point where it is still mathematically impossible for the book to earn out even if all the copies sell, they make their predicted profit, plus the added profit from paying the lower advance. The book goes out of print and reverts. The publishers are even happier!

Sounds publishamerica—ish.

[James D. Macdonald]

Sounds publishamerica—ish.

Not really. We're talking about, say, $20,000. You keep the $20K, and you get the rights to your book back to sell again to someone else. What's not to like?

[barnicus]

All right,

So in keeping on the current couple of posts about royalties and advances, say the same author gets his second book published. In order to make more sales I presume that with the relese of a new book the publisher wants to also make more sales off of the first book that went out of print at the time. Would royalties come in for book number one while book number two is being sold?

[Judg]

Judg: would you be prepared to share your "long list of words"?
If you poke through the Novels forum, you'll find quite a few of these lists, but for what it's worth, here is my search list. It's not formatted to be pretty, I'm afraid, but I didn't feel like cleaning it up. Some of these are the words that I have a tendency to overuse; they might not be a problem for others.

is, 's, isn't, are, 're, aren't, was , were, be, been, being, would, could, should, "that". Challenge-ly, with, very. Challenge gerund clauses (do a search for "ing"), Eliminate most exclamation marks. really, some (and compound forms), quite, almost, probably, a little. possibly, simply, totally, supposedly, seriously, mostly, practically. terribly, allegedly, utterly, sort of, kind of, usually, extremely. Sudden, moment, pause

It's the "to be" verbs that cause me the most work. I often overuse them (like in the preceding sentence).

[Blue Sky]

Wow, a moose festival! Nice old cars in the past car shows. Looks like a friendly place. Thought I'd have to visit my friend in Alaska to see something like that. I see that other options exist. Ha!

Let's go y'all.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Advance and royalty info: Pretty sly tricks on the publishers part. Like working for Walmart, but not having to show up--unless the book doesn't sell.

[Ken Schneider]

Not really. We're talking about, say, $20,000. You keep the $20K, and you get the rights to your book back to sell again to someone else. What's not to like?

I meant the low advance high print run senario.

Seems to me if they give you, say, 2,000 advance, set the print run too high, the writer gets screwed.

You never see any royalties, and the publisher sells above the advance. When the book dribbles to a slow crawl in sales, and doesn't sell through and reverts, well. Someone got tricked. Shady tactics at best.

[Ken Schneider]

All right,

So in keeping on the current couple of posts about royalties and advances, say the same author gets his second book published. In order to make more sales I presume that with the relese of a new book the publisher wants to also make more sales off of the first book that went out of print at the time. Would royalties come in for book number one while book number two is being sold?

I'm sure, if it didn't revert, and the second book having an established reader base from the first. Those who didn't read the first book might want to read it.

If the rights reverted to the author, no chance of that unless another publisher picked up the rights to the first book. Though, the sales numbers on the first book would come into play. My thinking any way.

[James D. Macdonald]

I meant the low advance high print run senario.

Seems to me if they give you, say, 2,000 advance, set the print run too high, the writer gets screwed.

You never see any royalties, and the publisher sells above the advance. When the book dribbles to a slow crawl in sales, and doesn't sell through and reverts, well. Someone got tricked. Shady tactics at best.


Not "low advance, high print run"; it's "low advance, high royalties." With the print run set so that there can't be any royalties. Which works out to plain old "low advance."

The rule for any working writer is this: The advance is the only money you're ever going to see.

Now about reversions:

If your book has reverted you can resell it to anyone. Including the previous publisher. If you're suddenly a hot property, they'll bid.

The only way to make a living as a writer is to keep writing. And keep selling. (Which is the trick, isn't it?) But the key to keeping selling is to keep getting better.

[mkcbunny]

What happens with the Low Advance High Royalties plan? The publisher pays the low advance, sets the print run to a point where it is still mathematically impossible for the book to earn out even if all the copies sell, they make their predicted profit, plus the added profit from paying the lower advance. The book goes out of print and reverts. The publishers are even happier!

It's a shame that in order to make the best business choices, authors seemingly must assume that publishing is out to screw them. Sigh.

[James D. Macdonald]

All right,

So in keeping on the current couple of posts about royalties and advances, say the same author gets his second book published. In order to make more sales I presume that with the release of a new book the publisher wants to also make more sales off of the first book that went out of print at the time. Would royalties come in for book number one while book number two is being sold?


One of the nice things about a new book's publication is that your backlist may well be put back into print and resolicited. (Resolicited: The publisher's sales force goes out and actively solicits bookstores to shelve it.) For the publisher, that's found money: They've already sunk the costs of acquistion, editing, artwork, and design. All that's left is printing, which is cheap, and distribution, which they're doing anyway because that's their core job. If the earlier book hadn't earned out before, any new revenue is put toward the advance. It it has earned out, then the author gets the money (after figuring reserve-against-returns and all the other sorrows of the writers' life).

That is if the publisher thinks that your new book is strong enough to pull other sales along with it. The publisher may not think so. In which case the earlier book continues to stumble its way toward reversion. (Without getting into the various tricks and traps, like "Permanently Out Of Stock" which is used to avoid "Out of Print," since the latter triggers reversion but the former does not. The publisher might do this, figuring that you aren't famous now, but you could become famous someday, and at that hypothetical point your backlist will be valuable. This is one place where having an agent suddenly becomes Very Very Useful Indeed.)

For the variations on this theme, see the details of your contract. Please have an expert read that contract and advise you before you sign. Good intentions don't count.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you're going to be an alcoholic writer -- first become a writer. You can always work on the alcoholism later.

[James D. Macdonald]

We're going to ReaderCon (http://www.readercon.org/) this coming weekend.

Here's the sked:


>>>>> Readercon 20 Participant Schedule: James D. Macdonald

Saturday 11:00 AM, VT: Group Reading

read (30 min.) Debra Doyle, James D. Macdonald

Doyle and Macdonald read from a work in progress.

Saturday 2:00 PM, ME/ CT: Panel

I Spy, I Fear, I Wonder: Espionage Fiction and the Fantastic. Don
D'Ammassa, C. C. Finlay (M), James D. Macdonald, Chris Nakashima-Brown,
John Shirley

In his afterword to The Atrocity Archives, Charles Stross makes a bold
pair of assertions: Len Deighton was a horror writer (because "all cold-
war era spy thrillers rely on the existential horror of nuclear
annihilation") while Lovecraft wrote spy thrillers (with their "obsessive
collection of secret information"). In fact, Stross argues that the
primary difference between the two genres is that the threat of the
"uncontrollable universe" in horror fiction "verges on the overwhelming,"
while spy fiction "allows us to believe for a while that the little people
can, by obtaining secret knowledge, acquire some leverage over" it. This
is only one example of the confluence of the espionage novel with the
genres of the fantastic; the two are blended in various ways in Neal
Stephenson's Cryptonomicon, Tim Powers' Declare, William Gibson's Spook
County, and, in the media, the Bond movies and The Prisoner. We'll survey
the best of espionage fiction as it reads to lovers of the fantastic. Are
there branches of the fantastic other than horror to which the spy novel
has a special affinity or relationship?

Sunday 12:00 Noon, Salon F: Autographing

Sunday 1:00 PM, Vineyard: Kaffeeklatsch




===========

The reading will be from the current Civil War novel, which is going to be called
either To Look Beyond the Union or Not A Single Star Obscured. Or perhaps
something else.

We're looking for something pithy from Daniel Webster to express a time-traveling
alternate history fantasy in which sometimes the Confederacy wins, and sometimes
it doesn't, and sometimes Abe Lincoln lives to retire back to Springfield, and
sometimes he's assassinated in Baltimore before he can even take the oath of
office.

Which I hope is a fun read.

[Raindrop]

Eeeps! That's it, I've reached the last page of this thread.

I'm doing some assignments as I find the time for them. In particular, I like copying the first chapter / first few pages of novels. I'm sure something good is rubbing on me, I can almost smell it.

I now BIC everyday. I have a rough idea of where the story is going, but I don't know the details yet. It feels odd to work without a net. I'm just some sort of translator for the characters. They surprise me everyday.

I've never received a most helpful advice than the permission to write badly. Thank you! :D

[Admiral Snuggles]

If you're going to be an alcoholic writer -- first become a writer. You can always work on the alcoholism later.

Made me laugh. Then cry. Then laugh again. I'm not drinking. I'm writing. That's right. Writing.

[SarahMacManus]

If you're going to be an alcoholic writer -- first become a writer. You can always work on the alcoholism later.

You know, I haven't had any luck with that. I tried to cultivate a drinking problem in late 2007 and it just didn't stick.

I'm pathetic.

So, I guess I better just go with the writing part...

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim wrote, If you're going to be an alcoholic writer -- first become a writer. You can always work on the alcoholism later.

Is it okay to work on both at the same time like I did/do?

:)

[Ken Schneider]

No, no, don't drink booze or beer or wine while you write.

Likewise don't snack on food.

Drink all the coffee you care to dump in. ICK. Don't drink it myself.


You'll form a bad habit really quick. Get fat/ter.

Think about it. You write everyday, which means you'll be drinking everyday. Soon you'll have ruined/ ended your chances at promising career, ala F.Scott Fitzgerald.

They'll try and make you go to rehab, you'll say, no—no, no.

[Berry]

Likewise don't snack on food.


So, what should we snack on?

[cooeedownunder]

:popcorn:

[Ken Schneider]

So, what should we snack on?


Words.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

Ken is right! I gained fifteen pounds writing my last manuscript O_O!

[allenparker]

The point is don't start a habit that might interrupt your writing later. Let's say that you start writing while listening to your parrot reciting old Paul Lynn jokes. You become a famous writer, but can only write while the parrot acts. Then the parrot dies.

Do you know how long it will take you to find another parrot with that poor a taste in jokes?

[James D. Macdonald]

For those who might be interested: The VP XIII Student Handbook (http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/14020926/1200018053/name/vp-handbook-2009a%2Epdf).

Some stuff is generally applicable to folks who won't be on Martha's Vineyard in the fall.

[Blue Sky]

The VP XIII Student Handbook (http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/14020926/1200018053/name/vp-handbook-2009a%2Epdf) is first-rate work. Thanks for sharing Jim. Those are exellent guides on how to give and receive critiques. We could print 'em out and use 'em for SYW interaction.

[Blue Sky]

:popcorn: Just following cooeedownunder's instructions.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi Uncle Jim,

Anyone really. I was wondering how to write grades in a story. EX: He opened his notebook. The first thing he saw was an 'F' in bold red ink at the top of his math test.

Single quote?
Double quote?
Something else?

I ask here because it feels naked without placing something around the letter. It seems wrong to me. I thought maybe someone who has had a little more experience in writing novels could help.

[James D. Macdonald]

In AP style and Chicago style, the letter-grade F isn't set off in any way.

The plural, F's, has an apostrophe.

You can do anything you please, provided you're consistent. The publisher's copyeditor will change whatever you do to house style.

[errantruth]

Thanks for all of this info always, btw, Jim.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks Uncle Jim.:Hug2:

[FOTSGreg]

The point is don't start a habit that might interrupt your writing later. Let's say that you start writing while listening to your parrot reciting old Paul Lynn jokes. You become a famous writer, but can only write while the parrot acts. Then the parrot dies.

Wish I'd known that in frakking high school!

Oh, well, too late now. These days my muse is as much of an alcie as I am.

I kid! I kid!

:)

BTW, Uncle Jim -Getting that book query out to agents now and plowing ahead on a new WIP which I think has much more promise than most of my others (dark thriller material).

Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!

(to be honest, I usually work on several WIPs at the same time alternating between them when I get stalled or bored with one, but this ones one of the best I think I've had in a long, long time and if the others wait, well, I've used them ruthlessly as learning stepstones to this one).

(I hope)

:)

[euclid]

Spent two days reading "Writing the Breakout Novel" (2001) by Donald Maass. Full of useful, insightful, stuff. I'm reviewing / rewriting WIP3. I think a fairly manageable rewrite will ensure that each scene is full of tension. After that, I will need to beef up some (most) of my characters and make scene settings stand out more...

If you want a long list of outstanding books to read (and I need this to catch up) look no further than this book by D. Maass.

I've started reading his "The Fire in Fiction" (2004). WIP4 is on hold.

Still trying to get my hands on a copy of "Covenant of Justice" or "In the Eye of God" by David Gerrold, to see what E-prime looks like. These books are not available in any library in Ireland or the UK! They are on Amazon.com, in US stores.

[James D. Macdonald]

According to Anne Stuart, there are three secrets to a fabulous writing career. Unfortunately, because they're so secret, no one knows what they are.

Therefore you have three not-so secrets:

1) Keep writing, even when you aren't inspired.
2) Keep submitting, even when you're discouraged.
3) Keep improving what you do, with a critical rather than an indulgent eye on your craftsmanship.

[Ken Schneider]

According to Anne Stuart, there are three secrets to a fabulous writing career. Unfortunately, because they're so secret, no one knows what they are.

Therefore you have three not-so secrets:

1) Keep writing, even when you aren't inspired.
2) Keep submitting, even when you're discouraged.
3) Keep improving what you do, with a critical rather than an indulgent eye on your craftsmanship.

I don't know how you do that.

I'm feeling uninspired tonight.

Off I go to write badly, but write none the less.

[James D. Macdonald]

Readers are unable to distinguish between talent and hard work.

Dave Barry once commented that he worked all week every week to write columns that looked like he'd knocked them off in forty-five minutes over a six-pack.

[Carimel]

I am very excited that I have started working on my mystery novel. My husband is very supportive so that helps a lot. My question is : I have two different ideas for a story. I have tried to combine the both stories together but it does not make sense. Should I just work on one story and save the other one for a second novel?

[James D. Macdonald]

Should I just work on one story and save the other one for a second novel?

Yes.

[5bcarnies]

I MADE IT!!!

It has taken me two weeks of reading this thread to reach this point. I've learned a lot in that time. I also have to give huge kudos to Mr MacDonald for sticking by this thread since 2003, especially when there seemed to be turmoil around every post. Thank you sir.

Now, back to learning and writing. I still have my two hours to complete. Although I am so happy right now I think I will push my BIC time to 3 or 4 hours. I feel that pumped.

[James D. Macdonald]

Welcome, 5bcarnies! Has it really been six years? Well, I've been having fun.

Carimel: For a mystery, I really suggest doing an outline. One form of outline you might consider is a Ghod's-eye-view, where you write down what really happened, in chronological order, noting down when other people learn the facts, who they learn them from, and who they tell them to. This may help keep things consistent.

[euclid]

Welcome, 5bcarnies! Has it really been six years? Well, I've been having fun.

Carimel: For a mystery, I really suggest doing an outline. One form of outline you might consider is a Ghod's-eye-view, where you write down what really happened, in chronological order, noting down when other people learn the facts, who they learn them from, and who they tell them to. This may help keep things consistent.

Also, write the whole story outline again from the villain's viewpoint.

[euclid]

D. Maass talks about novels which are based on the idea: "A stranger comes to town" and ignites the action. He doesn't cite any examples of books that follow this scheme.

Can anyone suggest some?

My WIP5 is based on this idea, and I don't want to reinvent the wheel

[euclid]

Yes.

Jim, Why do you always beat about the bush? Why not just say what you think?!

[James D. Macdonald]

Can anyone suggest some?


Red Harvest, Dashiell Hammett. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=83813)

[euclid]

Whoops. Watch it with comments like these. Once a moderator deleted one of my posts in this thread and sent me some angry expulsion-threats, because I dared to criticize James. You'd better not go there.

I think Jim knows a joke when he sees one.

Thanks for the Hammett reference, Jim... Off to the library again!

[5bcarnies]

Also, write the whole story outline again from the villain's viewpoint.

What a fantastic perspective. I've always taken into consideration where the villan was coming from but I hadn't gone that far. I think I shall give it a try.

[vox]

D. Maass talks about novels which are based on the idea: "A stranger comes to town" and ignites the action. He doesn't cite any examples of books that follow this scheme.

Can anyone suggest some?

My WIP5 is based on this idea, and I don't want to reinvent the wheel

Take a look at Echo Burning by Lee Child. Actually, I think much of the Jack Reacher series (which includes the aforementioned title) by Child is written to this premise.

[vox]

Welcome, 5bcarnies! Has it really been six years? Well, I've been having fun.

Carimel: For a mystery, I really suggest doing an outline. One form of outline you might consider is a Ghod's-eye-view, where you write down what really happened, in chronological order, noting down when other people learn the facts, who they learn them from, and who they tell them to. This may help keep things consistent.

This is great advice. I recently did this for my WIP and I'm amazed at all the creative doors it has opened in the piece. I'm finding that my bad guys made a good plan, but obstacles are cropping up all over the place, forcing them to improvise. Seeing what they're trying to do versus what they're actually doing is amazing. Most of that won't appear in the story, but it most certainly affects it.


I'm also about to make some rough maps of the city in which my story takes place, showing where the characters are at any given point on the timeline. I think it may be useful in assessing the logistics of any plot point / clue / potential breakthrough, etc... It also may be more difficult to do than I imaine, but I'm going to give it a shot.

[euclid]

Just recently I slipped into the persona of each of my main characters in turn and wrote a couple of paragraphs of introduction in each character's own words (and idiom). I found this an immensely rewarding exercise that suggested all sorts of small wrinkles for the book (WIP4). It also helped me identify the real driving force behind my MC.

[FOTSGreg]

Euclid, Ray Bradbury's Something Wicked This Way Comes, and Dean Koontz's Midnight, Fear Nothing, and Odd Thomas would all count I would think.

[Nathan]

D. Maass talks about novels which are based on the idea: "A stranger comes to town" and ignites the action. He doesn't cite any examples of books that follow this scheme.

Can anyone suggest some?

My WIP5 is based on this idea, and I don't want to reinvent the wheel

Needful Things by Stephen King

[euclid]

Back from the library. No joy again.

Their Lee Child stock is worn out and being replaced.
Dashiell Hammett - no luck. There are a number of Hammett books in the county, but none in my branch.
They had about 6 books by James Patterson, but not the one I wanted (Along Came a Spider).

[James D. Macdonald]

And now, to prove that I don't know nothing, we have this morning's headline on CNN:


Federal buildings get 'F' after bombs smuggled inThough exactly how they'd punctuate it if the headline were to be "Ten federal buildings get F's after bombs smuggled in" I don't know.

---------------

euclid, don't they have Interlibrary Loan in your county? I have a tiny branch library in my tiny town, but I can get almost any book that exists anywhere in the United States through it.

---------------

For Boston area fans: I'll be at Readercon this weekend. We have a reading at 11:30 on Saturday morning, and a book-signing at noon on Sunday.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, I was about to say the same thing regarding libraries. I've gotten books from UC Berkeley, Northeastern, and dozens of others using interlibrary loans. If you can find it online anywhere most libraries should be able to obtain a copy of the book through an interlibrary loan (I've obtained such esoteric items as Molecular Zoology and Insects: Their Natural History & Diversity as interlibrary loans).

Euclid, It sounds to me as if your local librarians simply don't want to be bothered to order a book for you (although I've always found librarians to be exceedingly helpful, sometimes going out of their way to help people order books). Use their computer and see if you can do it yourself. I'll be simply amazed if you can't get a copy of any of Dashell Hammett's works via interlibrary loan.

On a side note, I'm starting a 3x5 card plot outline for my new work Gated (working title) today. Just took a break to check in and see what was going on.

[James D. Macdonald]

Greg, somewhere upthread I mentioned how I do 3x5 cards. (They're my preferred method.)

A far better worked-out and explained method of using 3x5's is to be found in Magic and Showmanship (Nelms).

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, Yup, I found it in the index. I've used a similar technique a couple of times before, but always on paper or on the computer and just as a general chapter/event outline. I think I'm going to enjoy using the 3x5 card method for the flexibility it allows for inserting new scenes (I could do that on the computer, but not on paper, well, not easily (little arrows and notes drawn around on the paper connecting scenes and chapters was often as not more confusing)).

Magic and Showmanship, you say...hmmm...

[MumblingSage]

D. Maass talks about novels which are based on the idea: "A stranger comes to town" and ignites the action. He doesn't cite any examples of books that follow this scheme.

Can anyone suggest some?

My WIP5 is based on this idea, and I don't want to reinvent the wheel

Bodie Thone's "Only the River Runs Free"

John Christopher's "The White Mountains". Acutally, the prequel to his Tripod Trilogy ("White Mountians' is the first), "When the Tripods Came" might be an example...if the aliens invading count as strangers coming to town.

Gandalf coming to town starts the action in "The Hobbit."

[euclid]

About libraries in Ireland:

1. My wife works in the county library. She used to run a branch, now she works in head office, so I get the best of service from the staff.

2. We have online interlibrary systems, one that covers all the libraries in Ireland, another that taps into the libraries in UK.

3. The problem I'm having is that US books are generally not available in any of these libraries. An awful lot of US books never make it across the Atlantic (believe it or not). Apparently, there is not a single copy of either of Gerrold's Covenant of Justice books (published 93 and 94) in any library in these islands.

4. If I go looking to buy a book from Amazon, I can access Amazon.com (the US site) or Amazon.co.uk. Buying books from Amazon.co.uk (or the book stores that link to Amazon) usually works (mostly for UK titles of course). Buying books from Amazon.com (and satellites) is fraught with difficulty: Many US stores won't ship outside the 50 states; and those that try, very often come unstuck, one way or another. Quite frequently, I wait maybe 8 weeks before being told that the book is not going to be delivered for whatever reason. In these cases I (usually) get a refund.

5. In defence of our backwoods version of civilization, I would say that I'm willing to bet that the same situation works in reverse. Try buying an obscure UK title from Amazon.co.uk and having it shipped to USA.

[euclid]

Judg: I read somewhere that smiling, grinning and shrugging should be avoided. (one of Jim's reference links, methinks). These are really big problems for me. My characters are doing these on every page!

[K_Woods]

Uncle Jim, this may be a silly question, but I took a look at that post on common writer insanities and the VP stuff on crits, and I can't help but wonder: what's the normal window of duration for those kinds of worries? When does it cross the line from normal writer jitters?

[James D. Macdonald]

Everyone's line is in a different place, I suppose. And you never really get over the jitters.

[SarahMacManus]

Everyone's line is in a different place, I suppose. And you never really get over the jitters.

Well, that's a depressing thought. Was hoping there was a laurel-sitting in my future, but apparently it's pins and needles unto death.

Ah well.

You like the 3x5 card method? I've been using plotting sheets, although I think it's a bit of over kill, sometimes, it does allow me to insert and rearrange scenes as the story evolves. The nice thing is that the moment I sit down to work, I know what I need to accomplish in the next scene.

[FOTSGreg]

When I first sat down to write my book Hatchings, I did so without an outline and only a rough idea of where the story was going. I made copious notes on the book's bestiary and science, compiled an enormous & complicated spreadsheet, and interviewed several scientists for the book. But as the book progressed (and it spilled out in 35 writing days) and especially as the rewrites progressed I began to notice there were enormous plotholes and gaps in the story's structure. The 65k first draft was, in fact, only an outline for the 80k final draft.

I hope to avoid that mistake in the future using the 3x5 card method.

When I was writing my game-based novel (now destined for the trunk) I worked off chapter notes, but this was inadequate and I've frequently found myself blocked and frustrated by inadequate characterization, too much infodumping, and not enough action (it can be difficult to create a sense of urgency when battle actions take place in a time frame of hours (I know, it can be done - Niven did it in Protector really well, for example, and historians have been describing the naval actions in the Pacific during WW2 in exciting and interesting ways for decades)). One of these days I might return to this book and recharacterize it entirely, but I'll be working it from the ground up if I ever do.

[euclid]

I like to start with an outline consisting of a few words or (better) a few paragraphs per chapter (total 2,000 -3,500 words). I start with 60 chapters (1600 words projected for each) divided into 4 roughly equal parts of 15. I MUST have some words for every chapter before I start. If I don't I find that when I arrive at a blank chapter it's like falling into a crevasse. Several blank chapters in a row feels like the grand Canyon! I only use cards if a major structural or plot difficulty arises.

[HConn]

Red Harvest, Dashiell Hammett. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=83813)

A fantastic book. I love this one.

It's been out for more than 80 years, and continually reprinted. It should be available in used book stores, if you can't find it in a library. As one of the very few books I've ever reread in my life, I should mention that I bought it used in an omnibus edition of all five of Hammett's novels. It's a wonderful way to spend a long train ride.

A great many mysteries can fall into "A stranger comes to town," even if the character isn't actually arriving at a literal town. A person who inserts themselves into a community for their own purposes, even if it's just an extended family or a large workplace, would fit the pattern.

My own book falls into this category, but it won't be coming out for a while, so that's not terribly useful for you. Besides, Red Harvest is a classic.

As a side note, if anyone will be going to San Diego Comic-Con, PM me. I'll be doing a panel (for the first time) and signing ARCs (for the first time) and every friendly face would be welcome.

[James D. Macdonald]

Here's my WorldCon sked. (WorldCon is in Montreal this year.)

Session ID: 28
Title: Plotting Austerity
Description: Most of us have grown up in a world of
abundance (if
only for others): what are the challenges in envisaging a
truly
austere world?
Language: English
Track: Science and Space
Moderator: Jon Courtenay Grimwood
Location: P-518BC
When: Sun 7:00 PM
Duration: 1:00 hrs:min
All Participants: Cara C. Sloat, jackb@sff.net, James D.
Macdonald,
Jon Courtenay Grimwood, Emily Wagner, Lauren Beukes

Session ID: 39
Title: Dealing with Disasters
Description: Overpopulation, climate disruption, genetic
engineering,
antibiotic overuse have all produced candidates for a
world-changing
plague, but how will we deal with it?
Language: English
Track: Science and Space
Moderator: Yourself
Location: P-511BE
When: Mon 2:00 PM
Duration: 1:30 hrs:min
All Participants: James D. Macdonald, Sparks, Perrianne
Lurie, Dave
O'Neill

Session ID: 76
Title: The Science of Risk
Description: How well do we judge risks? How does this
affect
individuals and society? From vaccination to security,
judgments of
risk are now more important than ever. Should we just
leave it to
politicians and newspapers?
Language: English
Track: Science and Space
Moderator: Yourself
Location: P-522B
When: Mon 11:00 AM
Duration: 1:00 hrs:min
All Participants: Dr Dave, David M. Kushner, James D.
Macdonald

Session ID: 104
Title: Bio-Ethics
Description: Medical experiments, drug companies,
cloning, insurance,
bookies and you.
Language: English
Track: Science and Space
Moderator: Laura Anne Gilman
Location: P-513A
When: Thu 12:30 PM
Duration: 1:30 hrs:min
All Participants: Alison Sinclair, Howard Scrimgeour,
James D.
Macdonald, Laura Anne Gilman, Russell Blackford

Session ID: 228
Title: Author Reading
Description: Kristine Kathryn Rusch; James D.
McDonald; John C.
Wright.
Language: English
Track: Reading
Moderator: <Not Available>
Location: P-522A
When: Sun 5:00 PM
Duration: 1:00 hrs:min
All Participants: James D. Macdonald, John C. Wright

Session ID: 271
Title: What to Do in an Emergency
Description: What should you do when something bad
happens? We've all
heard stories of quick-thinking kids saving grown-ups in
trouble. You
make up the bad situation, and our panelists will tell you
how to
handle it.
Language: English
Track: Kids Programming
Moderator: Yourself
Location: P-510C
When: Sat 10:00 AM
Duration: 1:00 hrs:min
All Participants: James D. Macdonald, Kathleen Sloan

Session ID: 888
Title: What Fans Don't Know about Publishing Scams
Description: All you need to know before entering the bear
pit.
Language: English
Track: Human Culture
Moderator: Yourself
Location: P-512BF
When: Sun 12:30 PM
Duration: 1:30 hrs:min
All Participants: James D. Macdonald, Teresa Nielsen
Hayden, Ginjer
Buchanan

Session ID: 897
Title: The Inspiration of Failed Art
Description: Sometimes it's the really bad, not the really
good,
that's inspiring....
Language: English
Track: Human Culture
Moderator: Sonya Taaffe
Location: P-512CG
When: Mon 10:00 AM
Duration: 1:00 hrs:min
All Participants: Alter S. Reiss, James D. Macdonald, Sonya
Taaffe,
Emmet O'Brien

Session ID: 917
Title: Future Health Care
Description: At a time when the U.S. health care system
seems to be
breaking down, while other systems around the world are
worrying, yet
many people in the world have no heath care structures at
all, what
does the future hold? What paradigms shape the
arguments?
Language: English
Track: Human Culture
Moderator: Carole Ann Moleti
Location: P-512CG
When: Sat 9:00 AM
Duration: 1:00 hrs:min
All Participants: Carole Ann Moleti, David M. Kushner,
James D.
Macdonald, Perrianne Lurie, Richard Crownover, M.D.,
Ph.D.

Session ID: 1623
Title: James D. Macdonald
Description: A chance to ask those burning questions.
Language: English
Track: Kaffeeklatsch
Moderator: <Not Available>
Location: P-521A
When: Mon 12:30 PM
Duration: 1:00 hrs:min
All Participants: James D. Macdonald

[euclid]

You lucky chap!

I'd love to visit Montreal.
I'd love to meet Teresa Nielsen Hayden.
I'd love to me you, too.

I don't suppose any of these wishes will ever come true :o