Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Blue Sky]

The trick is finding that balance point between "well polished" and "pining for the fjords."

Classic. Thanks.

[Priene]

How could you tell?

caw

Because I saw them quoted saying it.

Do you think a bicycle maker thinks of their product as something more than a production piece for sale? They like the product they produce, or they wouldn't produce it.I also write computer software. I'm still proud of things I wrote fifteen and twenty years ago. I consider my work to be much more than just production pieces for sale. If I see a writer saying stuff like

That's the way I see it. Some writers get uber attached to the product of their labor.
I can only laugh when I see someone say. "It's my baby." then I see a grim, Gradgrindian salesman who not only apparently has no pride in their work, but laughs at those who do. That's not only contempt for other writers who believe in the value of literature, but contempt for the readers who believe likewise.

I judge the chances of this writer producing something worthwhile as pretty low. Hence I wouldn't buy their work.

Does that mean you buy lots and lots of books from vanity publishers? No.

Because at some point, the author needs to think of their work this way in order to meet deadlines, do the edits and copyedits and promote their work through signings, websites, social networking and so on. You can do it for the love of your work, but if you don't work with the publisher on a professional basis, your career will dissolve pretty quickly. I've read hundreds of interviews of professional writers over the years, and I've never seen one talk about their work in such a cynical manner. If they genuinely don't care about their work once it gets published, they have the common sense not to say it in public.

[Karen Junker]

Priene, you clearly have a great deal of emotion invested in your reading/writing. You have the heart of a great artist. I wish you every success in your writing endeavors.

[HConn]

... then I see a grim, Gradgrindian salesman who not only apparently has no pride in their work, but laughs at those who do.

lol. You really can't judge a writer's intent by the words on the page. Sure, if someone said "I wrote that piece because my kid needed to go to the dentist" you'd be clued in, but otherwise, it'd be impossible to tell.

Some wonderful stories have been written because the rent was due. Don't get too worked up about it.

[Ken Schneider]

Priene, Your perceptions of what you read here are you own, and doen't necessasarily make them correct.

As I mentioned, I enjoy my writing and take pride in what I write and have fun doing it. I guess you missed that in my post.

I do know this. Publishing is a business, and to the publisher, your writing is a product they make money from.

I understand your passion. I also know that getting over-invested in your work, emotionally, can get you hurt. It happened to me.

My comments are born of this experience, and I've gained a perspective from this site, AW, that made me look at writing as a business. I write it, the publisher buys it, and we do it all over again, because that's how publishing works.

I take my writing very seriously, but also understand that no one from the agent to the publisher sees it as anything other than money maker for them.

My goals are modest. I want to write well enough for a publisher to buy just one of my works and publish it because they think it will sell. If I never publish another ms, I'll be happy.

My goal is not, for the precieved prestige that readers have of a published writer, booksiginings where I feel special because lots of people want my autograph, respect my opinion on a writing thread at this board, or other grandiose ideas of fame and fortune.

At the end of the day we're all just people, no one better than the other. Readers put writers on pedestals, I don't want to be a writer who starts believing, falsely, that it's true.

I write because I love to write, and because I want to achieve my personal goal of having one of my books published by a reputable publisher so I can say to myself, you've done what you set out to do, write well.

I'll let this go, because it really doesn't belong in LWWUJ.

[Kerry Morgan]

:) Thank you- Re TYPING doesn't make me feel sick lmao... ;)

Kerry

[Kerry Morgan]

Well, although I kind of disagree with your theory- I do believe it should be in here- I've gotten hurt because I was so invested in what I wrote...

I think it's the same thing as having a routine, if you don't care about your writing, you won't enjoy it as much, and it won't matter so much- having it matter is the part that hurts if it doesn't to others- but at the same time- if you get so calloused inside you could wind up writing those things that readers don't care to read because there isn't any passion in them.

Readers know these things AS they read what the author wrote. If the author could care less- and just wants the money for the product.... I wouldn't care about the product either.

So learning to have a thick enough skin to be able to sell- and yet- not so thick as to avoid caring- I think is a part of learning how to write- IMHO. :)

Kerry

[James D. Macdonald]

Sure, if someone said "I wrote that piece because my kid needed to go to the dentist" you'd be clued in, but otherwise, it'd be impossible to tell.

Even then it's difficult to tell. A writer I know is one of the most fanatic craftsmen imaginable. He agonizes over every word, writes and re-writes, outlines, plots, researches minute and arcane details, argues with editors and copyeditors ... you'd think he was a jeweler working on the Koh-i-noor.

But the affect he shows to the public is "Hey, I'm a hack. I'm out to get your beer money!"

Why? Nickle-a-throw psychoanalysis is always tricky, but I think it's to lessen the sting if people don't like his offerings.

Writers tell stories. It's what we do. We even tell stories about ourselves.

Yet more rules for writing:

First Florence King, on porno guidelines (http://books.google.com/books?id=0bf97kCBSUAC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=%22Florence+King%22+oleaginous&source=bl&ots=meZW4W9HTp&sig=PpoK-hOdNRqyMhenWk7JsTnzIwU&hl=en&ei=ATd4SsC_FcyltgepleWWCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=&f=false).

Next, Robert Heinlein's Rules for Writing (http://www.gazetteofthearts.com/writer3.htm). (Astoundingly enough, from an address he gave at the US Naval Academy.)

The Florence King bit is recycled from her earlier essay, "Confessions of a Lady Pornographer, " (Penthouse, September 1973), which doesn't seem to be reprinted, collected, or otherwise available anywhere. The original was longer, more useful, and well-worth searching out.

[Ken Schneider]

OEY VEY! Anyway.

I recieved a rejection yesterday, and tossed it in the folder with the others I've accumlulated, and went back to writing.

All the rejection said to me was, your writing isn't good enough yet to have us pay you for it.

I didn't cry, send a nasty return note saying the editor doesn't know what they're talking about, becasue they do, or look for comfirmation of my writing prowess from a lacky friend. I'm proud of that. Writing maturity.

Have I said I'm passionate about my writing yet? Well I am.

And UJ may have hit the proverbial nail on the head. I'm not letting anyone get in the way of my goals no matter how harsh they come across. I'll hide behind any facade I can throw to keep from being dejected, and write on.

Besides, half the fun is in getting there.

[blacbird]

Besides, half the fun is in getting there.

Which half?

caw

[Salis]

All the fun, as far as I'm concerned. This applies to most things in life, actually. The goal is usually a let-down, getting to the goal is what's interesting.

[James D. Macdonald]

Doyle and I will be heading up to WorldCon on Friday. Our schedules are here (http://mist-and-snow.livejournal.com/).

[allenparker]

All the fun, as far as I'm concerned. This applies to most things in life, actually. The goal is usually a let-down, getting to the goal is what's interesting.

Perhaps I am different, but I usually take a proverbial moment to enjoy the summits I reach.

I often found the goals to be anticlimactic until I learned to stop and access what I had accomplished. Now, I find a simple joy in knowing I have accomplished that which I set out to do, even if it nothing more than taking the trash all week without having the wife remind me of the task.

I know. I know, but I might accomplish that some day.

[James D. Macdonald]

Hey, I enjoy it all. Every minute. And tomorrow will be even better!

[Neversage]

I've been stressing over dialogue. Specifically tags, said words, and actions in dialogue. I've gotten the impression that:

Fred frowned. "You clearly don't understand me." =BEST
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred said, frowning. =BETTER
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled. =GOOD
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled angrily. =BAD

Overall I'm rather confused. I naturally use a fair amount of said words when I write, but I've been told they are something to avoid. I try to work actions, or the indication of emotion through action into my dialogue, but I never know if it's right.

I've tried looking at books I like to see how they do it, but then I just end up sounding like them. The reason I bring this us is because I honestly don't know if how I naturally do it works or not.

Are there "rules" for this sort of thing, or am I stressing over nothing?

[HConn]

I find getting to the goal to be a tremendous relief. I don't celebrate; I sit down.

[Ken Schneider]

I've been stressing over dialogue. Specifically tags, said words, and actions in dialogue. I've gotten the impression that:

Fred frowned. "You clearly don't understand me." =BEST
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred said, frowning. =BETTER
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled. =GOOD
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled angrily. =BAD

Overall I'm rather confused. I naturally use a fair amount of said words when I write, but I've been told they are something to avoid. I try to work actions, or the indication of emotion through action into my dialogue, but I never know if it's right.

I've tried looking at books I like to see how they do it, but then I just end up sounding like them. The reason I bring this us is because I honestly don't know if how I naturally do it works or not.

Are there "rules" for this sort of thing, or am I stressing over nothing?

Not really rules, because you (could) use any of those tags. Remember that he/she said is always best. Although, some of those tags will look amaturish.
You could show some action before the tags, as in.

Fred threw his hands up in the air, and shook his head. He had to asked himself. Why doesn't Mille ever listen when I'm talking? Today was the day to let blow his frustration. It was like he spoke a foriegn language. "For God's sakes how many times do I have to repeat myself? You didn't understand a damed thing I said, did you?"

No tags. And, I assume you know what's going on without using, Fred frowned and said?

[James D. Macdonald]

"Said" words ... the word "said" itself is invisible. The other said word are spices. You want spices or the food is bland, but too much and the food is inedible.

That's where the art comes in. Your style, your choice.

[Neversage]

Thanks guys. I think I understand.

[mommyjo2]

I once read a novel where none of the characters ever "said" anything. They shouted, retorted, answered, rejoined, whispered, growled, yelled, and many, many more verbs.

It was so distracting that I couldn't finish the book.

[euclid]

I found this on p82 of Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Browne and King ed.2

'Mr Ludlum has other peculiarities. For example, he hates the "he said" locution and avoids it as much as possible. Characters in The Bourne Ultimatum seldom "say" anything. Instead, they cry, interject, interrupt, muse, state, counter, conclude, mumble, whisper,... intone, roar, exclaim, fume, explode, mutter. There is one especially unforgettable tautology: " 'I repeat,' repeated Alex."

The book may sell in the billions, but it's still junk.' - Newgate Callender, The New York Times Book Review

[James D. Macdonald]

An amusing toy:

http://www.literature-map.com/audrey+niffenberger.html

http://www.literature-map.com/stephen+king.html

http://www.literature-map.com/dan+brown.html

http://www.literature-map.com/michael+crichton.html

[James D. Macdonald]

Girl Genius, a web-comic mentioned above, won a Hugo last night.

[Blue Sky]

Hooray for Girl Genius! I love it! :)

[euclid]

Girl Genius, a web-comic mentioned above, won a Hugo last night.

Well deserved and way overdue, imo

[Neversage]

Ever have one of those moments where something clicks and you realize anew how much of an art this is? As a writer, I think I live for those moments.

[euclid]

Ever have one of those moments where something clicks and you realize anew how much of an art this is? As a writer, I think I live for those moments.

Yes, all the time, even when rewriting/editing. They're great, aren't they?

[Neversage]

Yes! I just had one of those moments where the words just flow so naturally that it's like you are reading a book that is already written as you write it.

[euclid]

Yes! I just had one of those moments where the words just flow so naturally that it's like you are reading a book that is already written as you write it.

Don't be too surprised - or disappointed - if that same passage finishes up on the cutting room floor!

[euclid]

Can't remember which book, but I found this in a passage of dialogue:

"..."

Any opinions about this sort of thing? I would have said:

I said nothing or
I gave no reply or something.

[Aggy B.]

Can't remember which book, but I found this in a passage of dialogue:

"..."

Any opinions about this sort of thing? I would have said:

I said nothing or
I gave no reply or something.

I wouldn't have done it like that, but it's possible the author meant it to be an indication of a sigh or something else that was verbal but not a word. I just write it out. "Huu," or "Egh," when my characters make noises but some people are anti-"sound effect".

Also. It might be a typo. Perhaps something was meant to be inserted there and never got put in. Maybe. *shrugs*

[SilverPhoenix]

I guess it was a style thing. It's common in anime/manga/comics. I think I saw it once in a really teen-y book.

I'm not a fan of sound-effects. Reading 'Egh' would probably make me laugh.

[Neversage]

Can't remember which book, but I found this in a passage of dialogue:

"..."

Any opinions about this sort of thing? I would have said:

I said nothing or
I gave no reply or something.

I usually just put something like:
Frank stared at Jim, wanting to speak, but unable to make any words.

[cscarlet]

I use "..." all the time.

Though, I also recognize that I use it because I am a highly uneducated writer. Call it part of my word vomit.

I was taught years ago that "..." can indicate a lengthier pause, or voice trailing off, or when a train of thought is broken by the narrator to switch to something else, or when someone is "cut off" during speaking. I was also told that it should be used when you don't want to take away from the other words on the page. I think maybe my creative writing teacher was on crack. Regardless, I listened too carefully and became hopelessly addicted.

Now it automatically pops in whenever I write. I know it's bad form, so I usually edit them all out. You will see them a ton though in my first drafts... I just can't seem to help throwing them in ;)

ETA: I'm anal so I looked it up. For additional information, read ye: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

[jinap]

Can't remember which book, but I found this in a passage of dialogue:

"..."

Any opinions about this sort of thing? I would have said:

I said nothing or
I gave no reply or something.

Maybe it's for comic effect? I've seen this before and it makes me think of the *crickets chirp* where the silence is highlighted for comic effect.

OFF/NEW TOPIC: I just discovered some stories I wrote in high school and read through them... and they were good. Surprisingly so. In fact, better than some of my more recent writing attempts and I know the reason why: back then I read and wrote a lot more. I'm rusty.

It's both heartening (hey, I've got the goods!) and disheartening (oh, how I need to get back into writing regularly!) because the difference is really obvious.

I know most people look back at their old attempts and laugh at how bad they were and see how much they've improved since then, but have you ever experienced the opposite? After being away from writing for a while, do you ever look back and see that your writing then is better than your writing now?

[mommyjo2]

"..."

I've seen this a lot in Manga when the character is at a loss for words.

[RJK]

I would have interpreted it as a lengthy pause, but agree, there are many ways to express it better.

[James D. Macdonald]

There may be many ways to express it, but none of them are "wrong" so long as you're consistent and the reader isn't confused.

As to older writing being better, that's one of the reasons I suggest you age your current effort in a desk drawer for a few months before editing it. You'd be surprised how much leaving it aside for a bit improves the writing.

[Ken Schneider]

"..."

I've seen this a lot in Manga when the character is at a loss for words.


Yeah, and some of those quote marks have words in between them, and still don't say anything.

[euclid]

I'm reading FRANCIS CLIFFORD (1917-1975). If you're writing/reading thrillers, I couldn't recommend anyone better. Fantastic. Simple, strong plots, great prose.

[euclid]

I have some stuff I wrote at age 13 or so. All I can say is:

"..."

[jinap]

Thanks for the advice Uncle Jim - it's easier for me to just go ahead and keep writing, knowing that I can always come back to polish my work.

I have some stuff I wrote at age 13 or so. All I can say is:

"..."

Don't get me wrong, my old writing is not genius by any means, but it's far better than I thought and doesn't suffer from some of the mistakes I'm making now.

It's strange: back when I didn't know about POV or other technical aspects of writing, I intuitively stuck to the rules (lots of reading I guess) whereas now that I am older and supposedly wiser, I find myself making simple mistakes that I didn't make back then.

I clearly have lots of work to do, but I'm actually excited about it.

[Calliopenjo]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for an opinion.

If you read in a story that a healer's assistant pulled out a black vial, what thoughts would come up?

[Ruth2]

Pulled a black vial out of what?

Death, sickness, some serious healing mojo, nefarious skullduggery... ink.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you read in a story that a healer's assistant pulled out a black vial, what thoughts would come up?



The thoughts that you, as the author, wanted to come up.

[Ken Schneider]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for an opinion.

If you read in a story that a healer's assistant pulled out a black vial, what thoughts would come up?


Assistant took a glass vial of dark liquid from h/h pocket?

A black vial would mean that the vial was colored dark to hide what was inside.

[Calliopenjo]

Thanks guys. I appreciate your opinion. :Hug2:

[James D. Macdonald]

Or, it was black because whatever was inside is light-sensitive. Or, it was black because they were all out of red vials at the store that morning. Or, it was black because black vials are a trademark of Frank Black's Soothing Syrup (one for man, two for beast, good for what ails you!) Or, it was black because that's the color-code for 5 dram vials. (10 dram vials are light blue; 15 dram vials are green.) Or, it was black because it was a sample (not for resale).

Better to ask why it's a vial rather than a phial.

[Ken Schneider]

Better to ask why it's a vial rather than a phial.

Because we're not Latins or Greeks.

[Calliopenjo]

I used the black vial as a way to mark the tonic inside as being used for death.

Tobin took out from the shelf: three green vials of herbs used for infection, four brown vials of herbs used for internal parasites, and one red vial of herbs used for pain. The last one was the Black Vial. The dark container held a tonic to help patients pass from the living to the dead. After placing the vials on a tray, he gathered material to cut.

[James D. Macdonald]

"The Black Vial?" Master Filbin asked.

"Yes. It seems needful."

"Waste of perfectly good Fly-spite." The master picked up a pillow and waggled it at his assistant. "If all you want to do is kill the daft bugger, this works just as well. Cheaper and faster, and no awkward explanations if someone sees you carrying it."

[Calliopenjo]

That's a good one. Thanks Uncle Jim. :)

[Alphabeter]

Now that this thread has received over a million views and is coming up on its 10,000th post, I propose that the graphically gifted create a few thank-you GIFs (or other images) to honor a really nice guy who has put in a lot of time here for nothing more than the hope we might read some of his (& Doyle's) books...to see the advice in action.

Whew, my fingers are tired from all that running. I'm going to wind this up with something directly related to the thread topic.

Yog, is it ever a good idea to "get into" writing solely to make money--or should one have a good story they need, want, crave to tell and hope the money comes later?

[James D. Macdonald]

If you're planning to get into writing to make money ... don't. The money is small and slow. There are faster and easier ways.

If you love writing and discover (to your shock and amazement) that they pay you (enough to live on, hurrah!), then you never have to work a day in your life.

(Though you will constantly wonder if your editors, your publishers, the critics, and your readers will suddenly see through you and realize that you're just faking it.)

My first advice to anyone who wants to become a full-time writer would be to pay all their credit cards down to zero, then cut them up.

Here's what it's like: Imagine you had a job where you're told that the annual salary would be somewhere between zero and a million dollars. And that salary would be divided into not-necessarily-equal parts, and each part put into an envelope to be delivered at the rate of one a day. Each envelope would contain either all, some, or none of your salary, and you wouldn't know what each day would bring until the mail came.

Plus there's no vacation time, no sick days, no insurance, and you have to pay double the social security that anyone else pays. Oh, and you have to work nights, weekends, and holidays. And your boss will know if you're slacking.

Who the heck would want a job like that?

There's a TV show called Castle, starring Nathan Fillion. Mr. Fillion portrays a writer.

Do not believe for a moment that that's what a writer's life is like. Not. Not, not, not, not, not.

I saw a wonderful cartoon strip once, showing the life of a writer. In the first several panels the writer is sitting in front of his computer going tap*tap*tap*tap. The only changes from panel to panel are the hands on the wall clock, the location of the cat, and the level in the coffee pot. In the last panel it's later that night and the writer is in a bar. A beautiful young lady is saying, "You're a writer?! That must be so exciting!"

This too is unrealistic: There aren't any beautiful buxom young ladies, either.

[lauraannwilliams]

The master picked up a pillow and waggled it at his assistant.

I'm really curious about the master and the pillow right now. I mean, a pillow isn't necessarily something you see hanging about at an apothecary. ( and the scene is less odd if they're at someone's bedside ). Also, is it the OFFICIAL "kill the patients" pillow, spotted and stained and finally covered with a rubber pillowcase, or do they use a new pillow each time?

--

I have an entire day with nothing pressing to do but write. Yesterday was the same, and I didn't manage to BIC until 7pm. 2000 words once I got there, what would I have done if I'd sat down in the morning?

I promise to find out today, if only because we have no cat.

[Bookdragonette]

I promise to find out today, if only because we have no cat.
There's always the kitchen-cupboards...Aren't they just too dusty for words?

[James D. Macdonald]

There's one nice touch in Castle: Our writer-protagonist's screen-saver flashes YOU SHOULD BE WRITING.

[RJK]

Uncle Jim, If you can find a link to that cartoon, I'd love to print it out and hang it on my wall.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

This too is unrealistic: There aren't any beautiful buxom young ladies, either.

There is, however, no great shortage of not unattractive ladies willing to help you wreck your marriage overnight.

So it's kind of a bummer.

[James D. Macdonald]

Ah, yes, the Young Creamies, who want to show you their ... manuscripts. (Repeatedly, in a variety of positions.)

They only turn up if you're married and not interested. If you're young, good looking, single, and a writer ... not a one in sight.

Important safety tip (NOT from personal experience, but I know a guy it happened to....): If you give your wife an STD, she won't have a sense of humor about it.

I recall an editor who had a Beautiful Young Lady come up to him and say, "I'd do anything to sell a book."

"Anything?"

"Anything."

"Write a good manuscript."

[IceCreamEmpress]

This too is unrealistic: There aren't any beautiful buxom young ladies, either.


Some of us writers are beautiful buxom young(ish) ladies our ownselves! But there are never any dashing Cary Grant types cooing over our amazing prose. :(

[James D. Macdonald]

But there are never any dashing Cary Grant types cooing over our amazing prose.

Yeah. Doyle keeps complaining about the scarcity of sun-bronzed oiled surfers among the groupie contingent.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

We should organize a sexual fantasy convention.

Every conversation must begin with. "Ooh! I love your amazing prose!"

[Neversage]

"No way, you write and play online games?" Karen said as she ran a finger down the front of author's Star Wars t-shirt.
"True story, my dear. My guild has a tabard, and I produce no less than two-hundred and fifty words of original prose each day."
"Take me!"
*smooching*

[euclid]

If you're planning to get into writing to make money ... don't. The money is small and slow. There are faster and easier ways.

Name some!:)

[Krintar]

Bagging groceries?

[FOTSGreg]

Doing security (I did). Becoming a CPA. Selling drugs. Doing a MAFIA hit. Being a drug mule. Cooking meth. Transporting illegal aliens across the border. Joining the Army. Selling your semen (or eggs). Selling a kidney (or a piece of your liver). Becoming a Post Office worker. Working for WalMart (I do). Freelance accounting (I do).

:)

[James D. Macdonald]

Name some!


Pizza delivery man. Valet Parking Attendant. Bank clerk. Bartender. Grave digger. Auto mechanic. Major league baseball star. (Yes, there are more people making a full time living playing professional sports than there are people making a full time living writing fiction. Think about that.)

Anything in the world which, if you start today, has a paycheck on Friday.

[Chris Grey]

AbsolutePizzaDelivery.com is still available, if this writing thing doesn't work out.

[Mitch Wagner]

Hi, Jim! I'm glad to see you're keeping up the Uncle Jim thread.

I have a question, and forgive me if this is inappropriate:

I'm near to finishing my first novel. It's a science-fiction novel (is there some other kind?). Pretty soon it'll be ready for the first readers to look over, and a few months after that, it'll be ready to submit to publishers.

Now what?

I've seen so much bad advice online on how to get published that I don't know what to do next.

Do I need an agent? If so, how do I find a good one?

Thanks!

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

(Yes, there are more people making a full time living playing professional sports than there are people making a full time living writing fiction. Think about that.)

So you're saying you'll be really famous once you make it as a writer?

I kid.

[Ken Schneider]

Pizza delivery man. Valet Parking Attendant. Bank clerk. Bartender. Grave digger. Auto mechanic. Major league baseball star. (Yes, there are more people making a full time living playing professional sports than there are people making a full time living writing fiction. Think about that.)

Anything in the world which, if you start today, has a paycheck on Friday.

It pains me to see folks come to AW with public driven perceptions of fame and fortune as a writer.
Some, or most, I suppose, fail and give up because as the truth sets in and the lack of love for writing was not really ever there, but was more the love of the idea of being famous, rich, and set upon a faux pedestal by the public.

The tremendous amount of work it takes to sustain a living as a writer is far greater than most are willing to pay.

I reviewed my reasons for writing long ago. I never found it boring or burdensome, but came to the conclusion that I could write a novel and enjoy the adventure I took myself on, for free.

It was then I set one goal for myself. One published novel by a reputable New York house. That's all. A tough enough task without adding overly imaginative expectations better reserved for creative writing.

I don't care about making money writing, I care about writing well enough to be published.

Once you take the full time writer road you've taken a job, and most jobs aren't any fun when there is pressure to perform.

The best reason to write is because it's fun, enjoyable and takes you somewhere no one else can go, your imagination.

[Ruth2]

When I was younger, I wanted to be famous and be interviewed by Johnny Carson. Now that I'm older, I don't like being known outside of my friends. Johnny's gone and money-- well, money's nice but we're doing okay, so that's not a motivation.

I love to write. I'm happiest when I write. When I don't write, something's missing in me. Putting a story together is the best game on earth. So.. I write. I strive to be good enough to be published but hey, if not, well... I had a great time anyway.

[Loretta]

I think this was so well put. I recently had a conversation with a friend that said they just could not believe how much time it took to write. I think they've watched me and become very amazed at the time involved...and the lack of compensation:) LOL...it's quite a ride...but I cannot imagine giving it up:)
Thank you for sharing these thoughts.

[Neversage]

My story has to be told. My characters will come to life and murder me in my bed if I keep their lives silent. I feel so responsible... Wow, if they really did, that would make some great fiction... Bah, probably been done before--Who cares, I'll do it better.

[HConn]

Hi, Jim! I'm glad to see you're keeping up the Uncle Jim thread.

I have a question, and forgive me if this is inappropriate:

I'm near to finishing my first novel. It's a science-fiction novel (is there some other kind?). Pretty soon it'll be ready for the first readers to look over, and a few months after that, it'll be ready to submit to publishers.

Now what?

I've seen so much bad advice online on how to get published that I don't know what to do next.

Do I need an agent? If so, how do I find a good one?

Thanks!

Mitch, I'm not Uncle Jim, but I just did this (omg) two years ago. Here's what I did:

First, start working on a query letter now. Write and revise it, then put it away for 2-3 weeks, then revise it again. Get some friends to look it over. I revised maybe six times.

Then, go to agentquery.com and make a preliminary list of agents who handle work like yours and are open to new writers. Double check the guidelines listed there with the agents' own websites--obviously, the agent's sites should be the final authority. Then go to Google and enter "[agent's name]" Interview. Review their personal preferences; if the agent hates cannibalism or cat-girls or Randian MilSF and that's what you've written, scratch them off your list.

You'll also need to create a synopsis. They ask for different ones, but I only did a two-pager, and it didn't seem to hurt me.

Yeah, this takes a long time, but you want to query widely and carefully, and your efforts will be rewarded (provided you've written a book they want).

Good luck, man.

[James D. Macdonald]

A useful agent has sold books that you've heard of.

[lucidzfl]

Mr Jim, I have a question.

You've said repeatedly that you write under several aliases.

I'm currently working on a novel that is very adult in nature with gore, violence, sex and language.

The first trilogy I wrote, I'm thinking of removing the few instances of very gory action and language and cleaning it up a bit. Not quite YA, but not so adult either. More mainstream.

The next book I'm going to write is fairly solidly YA. I'm aiming square at the young boy demographic.

The book after that will be a return to mainstream adult but not hardcore.

Can I release all of these under my own name?

[euclid]

The tremendous amount of work it takes to sustain a living as a writer is far greater than most are willing to pay.

It was then I set one goal for myself. One published novel by a reputable New York house. That's all. A tough enough task without adding overly imaginative expectations better reserved for creative writing.

I don't care about making money writing, I care about writing well enough to be published.



Ken, I think you'll find that many (all?) agents are searching for new writers who can sustain a career writing full-length novels, in preference to someone who can/will write only one.

Aren't you secretly planning to write another one if the first is a great success?

I love writing. I use to hate editing/rewriting, but not any more. I've been doing it for so long now with my current WIP, that it's like a real job. I eat, sleep this novel.

I can't wait to move on and write another, but that's a pleasure for the future.

[James D. Macdonald]

Can I release all of these under my own name?

You can. Whether you want to is something you should discuss with your agent, your editor, and the publisher's marketing people.

Will the folks who read one of your books, on picking up the next one with the same author's name on, it be disappointed? That's the question.

[lucidzfl]

You can. Whether you want to is something you should discuss with your agent, your editor, and the publisher's marketing people.

Will the folks who read one of your books, on picking up the next one with the same author's name on, it be disappointed? That's the question.

If JK Rowling (Sorry to use that as a fking example) wanted to write a hardcore zombie story that was rated R, would they use her real name?

What if King wanted to write a kids book?

[Mitch Wagner]

Thanks, HCONN, Jim.

[Ken Schneider]

Ken, I think you'll find that many (all?) agents are searching for new writers who can sustain a career writing full-length novels, in preference to someone who can/will write only one.

Aren't you secretly planning to write another one if the first is a great success?

I love writing. I use to hate editing/rewriting, but not any more. I've been doing it for so long now with my current WIP, that it's like a real job. I eat, sleep this novel.

I can't wait to move on and write another, but that's a pleasure for the future.


I've written (8) full novels in my quest for publication. And, I finished the last one and started another. I'll always write, no matter the outcome of my goal. Sure, I plan to continue to write even if I am accepted and published. But my goal is simple, and is my driving force; not money, or fame, or accolades. The goal is to accomplish a task that puts you at a place that says your writing is publishable.


I never said I'd only write one novel and then I'm done.

I will be satisfied as a writer if my goal is achieved, but that doesn't mean I'm finished writing.

I guess at some point a I need to ask the question of the multi-published as to the pressure placed on a writer to perform on by a deadline. UJ?

[James D. Macdonald]

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by."

Deadlines can concentrate the mind wonderfully, but they're also draining.

I keep saying to myself that from now on I'm going to write the book first then sell it, but the need for ready cash keeps making me sell the books on spec. If I ever get far enough ahead....

[RJK]

I agree with Ken. Getting past that first goal is what I aim for right now. Once I've achieved that, I can set new goals, multiple book deals, movie deals, whatever. One step at a time, Bobby boy.

[lucidzfl]

"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by."

Deadlines can concentrate the mind wonderfully, but they're also draining.

I keep saying to myself that from now on I'm going to write the book first then sell it, but the need for ready cash keeps making me sell the books on spec. If I ever get far enough ahead....

So you're just constantly writing to pay the bills?

I know that sounds odd but I mean, you're fairly established.

You have to write books on spec just to make a living?

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

I've written (8) full novels in my quest for publication.

I'll be adding you to my long list of heroes then. That's tremendous.

[Ken Schneider]

I'll be adding you to my long list of heroes then. That's tremendous.

It's nothing. 800,000 thousand words, + -, not counting short stories and other penned items. See (Crack of death) and (Stories of Strength).

And, I didn't start writing yesterday. I'm six years into it the novel writing effort.

There are a few people here at AW that pound at that many words a year. If you're looking for a hero, try them. TT42 is one.

[euclid]

What does "writing on spec" mean?

Does this mean that you sell the logline or summary for the book and then go and write it?

Or does it mean something else?

You've done really well, Ken. I've written only 3 novels in 14 years !

[James D. Macdonald]

So you're just constantly writing to pay the bills?




Well, yeah. That's what being a full-time professional author means.


It's my job.

[lucidzfl]

Well, yeah. That's what being a full-time professional author means.


It's my job.

I'm sorry. I guess I should rephrase.

Are you "living paycheck to paycheck?" Edit: IE(2) I realize you write to pay the bills but it sounds as if you're only scraping by.

IE: Are you able to have savings, etc.

The idea of constantly being behind the gun and having to rely on selling books on spec sounds as though you're forever in debt or at least in dire need of the money.

I'm probably not explaining this well. As you've noted once already today I do not have a proper command of my words.

[Delhomeboy]

I think lucidzfl is basically wondering if you could take a ten year vacation without wanting for money.

[sleepsheep]

So you're just constantly writing to pay the bills?


Aren't you constantly working to pay the bills? Most of us are not independently wealthy, and have to work to pay the bills. What I learned here is that writing is a job like any other. If you can pay your bills writing, that's already pretty awesome.

[Delhomeboy]

Aren't you constantly working to pay the bills? Most of us are not independently wealthy, and have to work to pay the bills. What I learned here is that writing is a job like any other. If you can pay your bills writing, that's already pretty awesome.

Again, don't think he was trying to be condescending, just think that HE thought Uncle Jim was, ah, shall we say "financially set", so he doesn't HAVE to write to pay the bills. Which he very well may be.

[Ken Schneider]

I'm sorry. I guess I should rephrase.

Are you "living paycheck to paycheck?" Edit: IE(2) I realize you write to pay the bills but it sounds as if you're only scraping by.

IE: Are you able to have savings, etc.

The idea of constantly being behind the gun and having to rely on selling books on spec sounds as though you're forever in debt or at least in dire need of the money.

I'm probably not explaining this well. As you've noted once already today I do not have a proper command of my words.

99.9% of pubbed writers don't drag in big number advances like the NYT bestsellers you know of. Those big number advances are akin to winning the lottery. I see a mis-conception here.

Say you get a $40,000 advance for a mid-lister with a sales history.

That's all you'll get until you sell another book, as the book you sold will have to sell through the advance to pay royalties.

I hope I've learned this and am repeating it correctly, Jim.

So, as a Full Time Writer, you pay the insurance and taxes on the house, and taxes on the 40,000, and medical insurance, and the mortage payment ahead, change the oil in the car and pay the light bill et al. And write a new book. That's 40,000 for a year. Some of us make more money than that on our day jobs.
After some years of writing you may get residuals from earlier works that trickle in, in small checks. Your spouse my be a professor at a local college part time, and suppliments the income or whatever.

It ain't big money for the majority of writers, folks. It's not big fame and fortune. It's living the life you love, and that's being and doing what you love, and that's writing.

[James D. Macdonald]

Living paycheck-to-paycheck is remarkably settled and predictable compared with freelancing.

But, my house is completely paid off, I've put two kids through college (with a third in college right now), and I can do pretty much anything I please.

If you're looking for predictable income (either in amount or timing), this isn't the job for you.

Your writers who are living on writing are mostly middle class, with all the same problems of any other middle-class wage slave. Sure, there are some superstars. Very few.

Same with all the creative arts. You have a few movie stars who could, if they wanted, take what they earned on their last film and live comfortably for the rest of their lives on that. But most actors have to keep working if they want to keep eating.

Royalties are nice, but unpredictable. It's good to be able to write three-and-an-outline and get multiple-thousands for it, but then you have to go and write the book. Including days when you aren't inspired. Including days when you loathe the book. Including days when you want to do something else instead.

Always assume that your on-signing money is the only money you'll ever see for any given project. (And yes, it's possible to write a novel faster than a publisher can write a check.) I've mentioned, from time to time, the slings and arrows that face the writer? That's one of 'em.

When I talk about having to do your BIC every day, I'm trying to prepare you for that day when you, too, become a full-time author. Get the habits now. You'll need 'em. And always improve, because if you aren't going up, you're going down.

[erinbee]

Well and remember that that $40,000 probably comes in halves or thirds and 15% goes to the agent, another 20% or so to taxes, save a bit for publicity, and on and on and on...

[Delhomeboy]

Always assume that your on-signing money is the only money you'll ever see for any given project. (And yes, it's possible to write a novel faster than a publisher can write a check.) I've mentioned, from time to time, the slings and arrows that face the writer? That's one of 'em.


This is the second time I've seen you say something like this, and I'm looking for some clarity. Now, I know if you don't get a high amount of royalties, it might take a while to get the royalty money. But (and yes, I know this happens very, very, rarely) if I get a 10,000 dollar advance, and then my book sells 1,000,000 copies, at, let's say, just $10 a book, that's 1.5 million at a 15% royalty rate...and that's a lot of money to just disappear.

[lucidzfl]

I think lucidzfl is basically wondering if you could take a ten year vacation without wanting for money.

I think you're the one with your head up your keyster thinking you're going to be a multimillionaire off your book that rushed from first draft to shelves in 2 weeks when you revolutionize the publication system lol.

Theres a big difference between taking 10 years off and fighting to keep the electric on.

My massive aspirations are to make $40,000 a year off of writing. My assumption is that I would never be even 1/10 as prolific as uncle Jim. That said, if he's fighting to put food on the table and unable to make even a few luxury purchases with his income, I may seriously have to rethink writing as a career.

Edit: Thanks for your clarification Uncle Jim. I'm going to leave my above post however because DHB is a wank.

[lucidzfl]

Living paycheck-to-paycheck is remarkably settled and predictable compared with freelancing.

But, my house is completely paid off, I've put two kids through college (with a third in college right now), and I can do pretty much anything I please.

If you're looking for predictable income (either in amount or timing), this isn't the job for you.

Your writers who are living on writing are mostly middle class, with all the same problems of any other middle-class wage slave. Sure, there are some superstars. Very few.

Same with all the creative arts. You have a few movie stars who could, if they wanted, take what they earned on their last film and live comfortably for the rest of their lives on that. But most actors have to keep working if they want to keep eating.

Royalties are nice, but unpredictable. It's good to be able to write three-and-an-outline and get multiple-thousands for it, but then you have to go and write the book. Including days when you aren't inspired. Including days when you loathe the book. Including days when you want to do something else instead.

Always assume that your on-signing money is the only money you'll ever see for any given project. (And yes, it's possible to write a novel faster than a publisher can write a check.) I've mentioned, from time to time, the slings and arrows that face the writer? That's one of 'em.

When I talk about having to do your BIC every day, I'm trying to prepare you for that day when you, too, become a full-time author. Get the habits now. You'll need 'em. And always improve, because if you aren't going up, you're going down.

Thanks much for putting up with my nearly incomprehensible questions. I'm trying to be polite and gentile, hence why I'm having a hard time asking you what I want to ask.

My goal is to make $40,000 a year (reliably) and move out to the country. I have done the make big bucks, live in big cities, party big thing.

I'm done with that lifestyle.

That said, if I was fighting just to pay bills, or decided which late payments to make, ALA college, I may just keep writing as a hobby not a career.

But if I can write, and reliably keep my lights on, and maybe squirrel enough away on the side to make trips after a few years, thats all I want.

I have NO impressions of fame, fortune, or glory. I just don't want to stress about money either. I've gotten to used to not having to.

[Bubastes]

lucidzfl, here's a post from NYT bestseller Lynn Viehl about her royalty statement the details of how she's paid.

http://www.genreality.net/the-reality-of-a-times-bestseller

Writing =/= steady income.

[lucidzfl]

lucidzfl, here's a post from NYT bestseller Lynn Viehl about her royalty statement the details of how she's paid.

http://www.genreality.net/the-reality-of-a-times-bestseller

Writing =/= steady income.

I definitely understand that writing is not steady income. I've worked as a contractor before so I know how to save money.

IE: If I got a 120,000 advance (after taxes, etc) I would not say, "Whoo hoo, big advance, I make 120,000 a year"

I would say, "Great a nice advance. I can pay off XYZ, and have 2 years income at 40,000 or I would say, Sweet, I have no debt, I have 40,000 a year for three years."

I will not quit my day job until I have, at least 3 years running, averaged out 40,000 a year.

FYI, I saw someone have the advice that before they became a writer, pay off all their credit cards. I have no debt, and I have assets I can sell off to offset any "slow" times.

EDIT: Thanks for the link btw :)

[Delhomeboy]

I think you're the one with your head up your keyster thinking you're going to be a multimillionaire off your book that rushed from first draft to shelves in 2 weeks when you revolutionize the publication system lol.



Man, you just wait and see. Five billion people are going to read my book after it gets on bookselves three days after acceptance, and then I'm going to buy a house in the Carribean and sip Mai Tai's the rest of my life. Muahahaha!

[lucidzfl]

Man, you just wait and see. Five billion people are going to read my book after it gets on bookselves three days after acceptance, and then I'm going to buy a house in the Carribean and sip Mai Tai's the rest of my life. Muahahaha!

And here I'd be happy with a $60,000 dollar house, a roll top desk and some cheap kentucky bourbon :)

[eqb]

But (and yes, I know this happens very, very, rarely) if I get a 10,000 dollar advance, and then my book sells 1,000,000 copies, at, let's say, just $10 a book, that's 1.5 million at a 15% royalty rate...and that's a lot of money to just disappear.

If your book receives a 10K advance and sells a million copies, then, yes, you would see royalty money.

But that kind of situation would be an outlier, and not very useful to focus on.

[euclid]

If I got a 120,000 advance (after taxes, etc)

Probably not realistic. A friend of mine recently signed a publishing deal for his first book. Advance: $25,000.

[lucidzfl]

If your book receives a 10K advance and sells a million copies, then, yes, you would see royalty money.

But that kind of situation would be an outlier, and not very useful to focus on.


It appears to me that as a new author with absolutely no promotion, you'll be lucky to see 20,000 copies sell which may or may not recoup the expenses of the hardcover.

Is that correct?

[eqb]

It appears to me that as a new author with absolutely no promotion, you'll be lucky to see 20,000 copies sell which may or may not recoup the expenses of the hardcover.

Is that correct?

I calculate that my first novel will earn out its advance if it sells 5,000 copies.

Couple points, however.

A book doesn't have to earn out for the publisher to make a profit on it.

Also, don't confuse promotion with marketing. The marketing a new writer gets might not be visible to the outside, but it exists and it's far more effective than full-page ads or signing tours.

[lucidzfl]

Probably not realistic. A friend of mine recently signed a publishing deal for his first book. Advance: $25,000.

I wasn't referring to a first book advance. I also do not envision that I will ever see an advance that size at all. I was merely saying that if I somehow got an advance larger than my desired yearly income, i would not spend that money.

[James D. Macdonald]

A first-timer can sell 5K in hardcover and another 20K in paperback. Really, that's not outside the realm of belief at all.

Depending on your genre, and depending on your market, and depending on the way the dice fall.

The advance is figured on how much the publisher thinks the total royalties of the book is going to be. Usually they're right. Let's see: $25 hardcover, 15%, 5K copies.... $18,750. $7.00 paperback, 8% royalties, 20,000 copies, another $11,200. $29,950 advance (call it $30K). Divided into three payments of $10K each, 15% to your agent, 20% to Uncle Sam...

What's a writer to do?

Answer: Two books per year.

If anyone knew how to make a book a best-seller, then every book would be a best-seller. And you're relying on the public. They're fickle, and unpredictable. So, have fun with the writing. That's the thing that is under your control.

[HConn]

A couple things: I have found deadlines to be surprisingly stressful. I want the book to be as good as possible before my agent sees it, let alone my editor, and the pressure to have a story solution right now! is strong. It also doesn't leave much wiggle room for day jobs and family emergencies.

But I'm not as prolific as a lot of other writers. When the time comes to sign my next contract (please let that time come!) I'm going to ask for a full year for each book rather than nine months.

As for the money, I get paid part on signing the contract, part on "delivery and acceptance" of the manuscript, and part on publication. The first and third are 18 months apart, for me.

Still, it's more money than I receive at my day job (I answer phones part time and have been for a long time--I went pt for family/child-rearing reasons). Unfortunately, it's *not* more than than I get from my day job in wages and benefits. My employer and I, together, pay over $1600 a month for my family of three, and that's for the basic plan, not including dental and vision. One of the things that's keeping me from becoming a full-time writer (and letting someone else take my day job) is the lack of an affordable, functioning health care system in the U.S.

ETA: I was composing this post while Uncle Jim was writing his above. I'd love to try a two-book a year schedule, but I couldn't do it without going full time. Catch-22 (for me, at least.) But I'm still very new at this.

[lucidzfl]

A first-timer can sell 5K in hardcover and another 20K in paperback. Really, that's not outside the realm of belief at all.

Depending on your genre, and depending on your market, and depending on the way the dice fall.

The advance is figured on how much the publisher thinks the total royalties of the book is going to be. Usually they're right. Let's see: $25 hardcover, 15%, 5K copies.... $18,750. $7.00 paperback, 8% royalties, 20,000 copies, another $11,200. $29,950 advance (call it $30K). Divided into three payments of $10K each, 15% to your agent, 20% to Uncle Sam...

What's a writer to do?

Answer: Two books per year.

If anyone knew how to make a book a best-seller, then every book would be a best-seller. And you're relying on the public. They're fickle, and unpredictable. So, have fun with the writing. That's the thing that is under your control.

If I am only getting 10,000 - 15,000 advances on my books, I'd need to write at least 3-4 per year.

I don't know if I can, or would WANT to do that.

I'm going to finish my current draft of my WIP in 3 months. But its been pretty grueling honestly with my 60+ hour a week job, new wife, and culinary requirements. ( I cook for 10 hours a week )

Do you still maintain any sense of attachment to your MCs when you write that much?

[James D. Macdonald]

I totally love my main characters (and my minor characters too). They're real to me, they come and visit ... it's fun.

And I think up new adventures for them.

One thing that I do at the end of every book is write a final chapter that doesn't appear in the draft the editor gets: a cast party for the characters. Where they get to wear loud Hawaiian shirts, drink too much, do inappropriate things, and fall into the pool. And the party always ends with the characters having a toast: "Here's to the author! Without him we'd all be out of a job!"

(Oh, and when a book gets started, I have my characters come and audition for their roles. It's fun. Okay, it's insane. But it's still fun.)

[eqb]

If I am only getting 10,000 - 15,000 advances on my books, I'd need to write at least 3-4 per year.

I don't know if I can, or would WANT to do that.

Then keep your dayjob until you sell a few novels and your advances go up. It's hard, but it can be done. I work full-time, and I have a family. Last year I wrote one new novel (which my agent is shopping around) and went through two rounds of revision for the first novel under contract.

That wasn't all I wrote, but those are the most significant milestones.

[lucidzfl]

I totally love my main characters (and my minor characters too). They're real to me, they come and visit ... it's fun.

And I think up new adventures for them.

One thing that I do at the end of every book is write a final chapter that doesn't appear in the draft the editor gets: a cast party for the characters. Where they get to wear loud Hawaiian shirts, drink too much, do inappropriate things, and fall into the pool. And the party always ends with the characters having a toast: "Here's to the author! Without him we'd all be out of a job!"

(Oh, and when a book gets started, I have my characters come and audition for their roles. It's fun. Okay, it's insane. But it's still fun.)

Very cool. I am always terrified of turning whatever I love into a business and having all my joy of it sucked away.

(Its how I ended up in my career)

I am really envious of you!

[Neversage]

(Oh, and when a book gets started, I have my characters come and audition for their roles. It's fun. Okay, it's insane. But it's still fun.)

I interview my characters regularly. It helps me work out what the story is lacking, and gets me into the deeper parts of their personalities. Great way to spend a commute to/from work.

I recall talking with my villain and realizing that he honestly believes he is doing what is best for everyone. It gave him more depth next time I wrote him because I had that in mind. his dialogue and actions flowed more naturally.

[lucidzfl]

I interview my characters regularly. It helps me work out what the story is lacking, and gets me into the deeper parts of their personalities. Great way to spend a commute to/from work.

I recall talking with my villain and realizing that he honestly believes he is doing what is best for everyone. It gave him more depth next time I wrote him because I had that in mind. his dialogue and actions flowed more naturally.

Mind if I ask how you interview them? Whats your method? Is it all written?

[Neversage]

Mind if I ask how you interview them? Whats your method? Is it all written?

No. None of the interviews are written, I wouldn't be able to type fast enough. I usually just imagine them in my passenger seat while I drive home, and I just talk, and their voice is in my thoughts. You have to take it seriously though, or you'll just sit there feeling self-conscious.

[lucidzfl]

No. None of the interviews are written, I wouldn't be able to type fast enough. I usually just imagine them in my passenger seat while I drive home, and I just talk, and their voice is in my thoughts. You have to take it seriously though, or you'll just sit there feeling self-conscious.

It would be interesting to pair up with another author and one of you be the interviewer and the other pretend to be a character.

You could switch off. That way you wouldn't be giving yourself loaded questions.

[Neversage]

It would be interesting to pair up with another author and one of you be the interviewer and the other pretend to be a character.

You could switch off. That way you wouldn't be giving yourself loaded questions.

I find that if i let the conversation happen as quickly and spontaneously as it wants to, that the questions are formed so quickly that they don't feel loaded at all. Maybe interview was the wrong word, because it's more like a heart to heart.

[FOTSGreg]

Uncle Jim, I buy my characters a beer (or three) and then listen to them tell me their stories (which I take notes on and stash away for later). A couple of my characters don't drink, but they love to shoot guns so we'll go out to a field or the range together and pop off a hundred or so caps.

One of my characters is a hunter, but he hates to hunt with a rifle. He much prefers a camera and the stalk to the actual kill. We go take wildlife photos whenever we get together.

My characters and I get together and it's my job to listen to them tell their stories in whatever situation we get into.

:)

[Ken Schneider]

I totally love my main characters (and my minor characters too). They're real to me, they come and visit ... it's fun.

And I think up new adventures for them.

One thing that I do at the end of every book is write a final chapter that doesn't appear in the draft the editor gets: a cast party for the characters. Where they get to wear loud Hawaiian shirts, drink too much, do inappropriate things, and fall into the pool. And the party always ends with the characters having a toast: "Here's to the author! Without him we'd all be out of a job!"

(Oh, and when a book gets started, I have my characters come and audition for their roles. It's fun. Okay, it's insane. But it's still fun.)

UM! how do you write with that white coat on?:)

[smsarber]

17 days in the hospital, major surgery where they removed the entire lower lobe of my right lung, and parts of the other two lobes. Still, I wrote 2001 words on my novel... so, is that having my priorities in order, or just insanity?

[James D. Macdonald]

That's having your priorities in order.

[lucidzfl]

That's having your priorities in order.

I typically write 3000 words plus in a sitting. Whats that mean?

[5bcarnies]

I typically write 3000 words plus in a sitting. Whats that mean?

That you can type really fast. hehe

[euclid]

17 days in the hospital, major surgery where they removed the entire lower lobe of my right lung, and parts of the other two lobes. Still, I wrote 2001 words on my novel... so, is that having my priorities in order, or just insanity?

I wondered where you were. Hope you've made a full recovery, Steve.

[euclid]

Jim, I tried reading my book out loud, but it sounded no different than it does when I just read it. (When I read I verbalize in my mind; I know some people don't). Anyway, I think that's not going to work in my case.

Re talking to the characters: I get each character to write a few paragraphs about themselves. That seems to work well.

[James D. Macdonald]

Do you pause for breath when you verbalize in your mind? Does unconscious alliteration leap out at you? Does the repetition of certain words and phrases become obvious to you?

[euclid]

All right already! I'll try it again.

[Blue Sky]

Jim, as a fly on the wall, I hope your playing and having fun as a pro writer figures prominently in any writing book you decide to publish. Your straight talk about having to continually write new material in order to pay bills and so forth knocks the false expectations away without elaboration.

Along those lines, I recently read If You Want to Write by Brenda Ueland. She understood the creative process quite well. Most highly recommended for folks wrestling with the Muse! Another one recently was The Spooky Art--Some Thoughts On Writing by Norman Mailer. He says the book leans toward advanced writers--not much basic "how to." Mailer shares a lot from his interesting perspective. He was certainly a successful writer with two Pulitzer Prizes as well. Fun when he looks back and pans his earlier work, including The Naked and the Dead, his mega-seller debut novel. I've started reading some of his recommendations, among them Hemmingway's In Our Time and Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer. Yowsa!

Welcome back Steve. Great job at the writing.

[Neversage]

17 days in the hospital, major surgery where they removed the entire lower lobe of my right lung, and parts of the other two lobes. Still, I wrote 2001 words on my novel... so, is that having my priorities in order, or just insanity?

Good sir, that is--as we say in the gaming world--full of win. I am glad you are back, and hope you make a full recovery in a timely manner.

[HConn]

17 days in the hospital, major surgery where they removed the entire lower lobe of my right lung, and parts of the other two lobes. Still, I wrote 2001 words on my novel... so, is that having my priorities in order, or just insanity?

Note to self: Lack of coffee is no longer an acceptable excuse for an unproductive day.

[James D. Macdonald]

I long-ago decided that when I stopped having fun doing anything that I'd stop doing it that same day.

[Ken Schneider]

Note to self: Lack of coffee is no longer an acceptable excuse for an unproductive day.

I gave up coffee and soda when my fingers moved faster when I wasn't typing.

Back to busniess, and a question.

When editing a finished ms.

I keep saying as I read, I need to expand on this It should have more info.

Is that bad, and should I be cutting instead of adding?

[lucidzfl]

That you can type really fast. hehe

lol fair enough. I'm not upset at my 140 wpm, 99% accuracy typing :)

[Salis]

I can type very fast, but there's no way I can do 3,000 words in a sitting consistently. I envy that. :(

[Chris Grey]

I long-ago decided that when I stopped having fun doing anything that I'd stop doing it that same day.

If only that worked for paying bills, filing taxes, and going to the dentist!

I can type very fast, but there's no way I can do 3,000 words in a sitting consistently. I envy that. :(

I think it all depends on how long the sitting is. If you forbid yourself to unsit until 3000 words are written, you'll find ways to make those words appear faster or you'll go crazy. Nobody said they had to be printworthy (that's what revision is for).

[lucidzfl]

I can type very fast, but there's no way I can do 3,000 words in a sitting consistently. I envy that. :(

For what its worth, I've set myself a very explicit schedule of

Plan one day,
Write the next.

I literally take one full day to nothing but think about what I'm going to write, and figure out whats going to happen. The next day I write it.

I may write 3000-5000 in a sitting but its every other day.

[Elidibus]

I long-ago decided that when I stopped having fun doing anything that I'd stop doing it that same day.

The advice in here just keeps getting better and better! I love this place!

:-)

[Akuma]

I long-ago decided that when I stopped having fun doing anything that I'd stop doing it that same day.

It's all right, officer, Uncle Jim endorsed this gross string of hedonism. ;)

[HConn]

Is that bad, and should I be cutting instead of adding?

I generally add more than I cut.

[lucidzfl]

If only that worked for paying bills, filing taxes, and going to the dentist!



I think it all depends on how long the sitting is. If you forbid yourself to unsit until 3000 words are written, you'll find ways to make those words appear faster or you'll go crazy. Nobody said they had to be printworthy (that's what revision is for).

I definitely do not force myself to sit there until the words appear.

I actually will typically start writing and then force myself to stop because I either need to eat, or I feel guilty about ignoring my wife, etc etc.

It just so happens that I usually take about 2 hours to write. And that produces 2,000 to 3,000 words.

I could probably write all day if the wine held out :)

[euclid]

When editing a finished ms.

I keep saying as I read, I need to expand on this It should have more info.

Is that bad, and should I be cutting instead of adding?

Surely, that depends on lots of factors. If expansion is required, expand, where reduction is advisable, reduce. There can't be a simple answer to this question. My current rewrite/edit resulted in the following words added/subtracted from Jul 19 onwards: 1495, 1472, -346, 149, -40, -269, 4, 570, 259, 62, 105, -411, -158, 0, 205, 266, 401, -76, -238, -1378, -2531, 2112, 359, -105 etc.

You get the idea!

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

Unc Jim and friends,

I love my thesaurus because I love every little word in my WIP. I always take Thesaurius with me on my daily journey to nowhere with butt-in-chair (BIC). Should I go alone? Tell him I gotta fly solo when I'm amassing a first draft? Is my best friend dragging me down? Should we break up?

[RJK]

I only use the thesaurus when I've found I've repeated a word too close to the first occurrence. I don't bother changing the word until I begin my editing process. Occasionally, I will use it to replace a word to make the sentence stronger or make it stand out, but, again, during the editing process. I can't remember when I last reached for it while writing the first draft.

[Krintar]

I frequently use a thesaurus or dictionary, regardless of which stage of the writing I'm in.
This is because I frequently have a sense that "there is a word which fits perfectly here, but it's hiding on the edge of memory."
If it takes more than a minute or two to find the word, though, I tend to just throw [] in the space and keep moving. Sometimes it comes to me on the next read-through, sometimes I think long and hard about it later... sometimes the entire sentence/paragraph/chapter vanishes and it becomes a moot point.

(I have this inkling that Uncle Jim will say some variation on "whatever works for you.")

[Calliopenjo]

I use thesaurus, dictionary, bing.com, and ask.com for variations of a word or for that word that can't come to mind. I know it's gotta be out there somewhere. When all else fails ___ takes its place until a critter reads through it and they find the word in the form of "Did you mean. . ." and the bell rings violently as I'm shaking my head.

[smsarber]

lol fair enough. I'm not upset at my 140 wpm, 99% accuracy typing :)
Sheesh. I can do about 45-60 words a minute. Due to an injury when I was thirteen my right middle finger is unusable to type, so I never learned the correct way. But for me, the 17 days in the hospital, had it not been for the use of my brother's laptop I may have only gotten half the 3,500 words I did get. Though I may have ended up with more towards my novel. Longhand I might write faster, but my hand cramps up fast. Although, when I write longhand I think I tend to stay focused on one project more. It's so easy to have a little idea and open a new page, but then I know I'll have to retype it later. While I was in there I started two hospital-based short-stories. Wonder where I got the idea for those? Ha-ha

[Ken Schneider]

Sheesh. I can do about 45-60 words a minute. Due to an injury when I was thirteen my right middle finger is unusable to type, so I never learned the correct way. But for me, the 17 days in the hospital, had it not been for the use of my brother's laptop I may have only gotten half the 3,500 words I did get. Though I may have ended up with more towards my novel. Longhand I might write faster, but my hand cramps up fast. Although, when I write longhand I think I tend to stay focused on one project more. It's so easy to have a little idea and open a new page, but then I know I'll have to retype it later. While I was in there I started two hospital-based short-stories. Wonder where I got the idea for those? Ha-ha

I don't do the conventional type of typing. I've figured out my own system over time. My wife types the right way, she she says I still type faster than she does. But, alas, none of that matters, it's getting the right words down on paper. Ten words a minute, or one hundred, fast or slow, doesn't the writer make.

[James D. Macdonald]

If something is keeping you from writing -- put it aside.

Why are you using the thesaurus? Is it a way to turn avoid composition?

Try this: When you're convinced the word isn't quite right, just type a near-enough word, then type XXX then continue with the composition.

For the last twenty minutes of the day, search on XXX with your Thesaurus in hand.

(Oh, and when you bring out your thesaurus, bring out your dictionary too: make sure you know what the words mean. Really sure. Once I was reading some unpublished fantasy, and came to a bit where our hero had just met a young lady, and ... put a medallion on her cervix. I knew instantly what had happened. The author had wanted a fancy-sounding word for 'neck.' And 'cervix' does, indeed, mean 'neck.' As in 'cervical vertebrae.' But, generally speaking, one doesn't get near a beautiful young lady's cervix until you and she are very good friends.)

[Calliopenjo]

I don't know about anybody else, but when the word walk(as an example) appears in the same paragraph more than once, I need to find another word. Or that "thing" that you know has a word attached to it, but you can't think of it until somebody else gives you that word. That word may not fit but it gives me a starting point to look in the thesaurus for the word that I am looking for.

[Ken Schneider]

If there's one thing I've learned here on this thread, it's the importance of finding the right word.
The great part of letting an ms rest is that the right word usually pops up when you do the rewrite/edits.

After ten thousand words into my current WIP, I'm feeling the need to do some plotting. A new course of action for me.

[Blue Sky]

Although I've been a lifelong non-thesaurus user, as I mentioned upthread, I bought Roget's on Jim's recommendation. It's proven invaluable while divining lively verbs to replace the verb "to be" and prepositional phrases. Yum. Not to mention lots of fun.

Dictionary usage became standard practice years ago. Familiar words may paint images contrary to our purpose, as with Jim's cervix example. Ha! With me it started when I checked a word in a title that gave me a funny feeling. I was so glad to have checked. The dam broke and that was that. I've learned to trust those funny feelings!

[SilverPhoenix]

I never use a thesaurus or a dictionary. I know I already use words my friends don't know sometimes so, especially when writing YA, I always want to stick to words I'm familiar with and that come to me like -snap-.

The only bad thing about Perdido Street Station (awesome book) was that I ended up reading with a dictionary kept close on my bedside table.

[James D. Macdonald]

Speaking of writing-avoidance behavior...

I have 1,500 words to go on a short story. So what am I doing right now? Defragging the hard drive on my working computer!

(I'm posting this from the laptop. Yeah, I could write it over here, but ... oh, okay....)

[ccarver30]

I use the right click synonyms option in Word allll the time.

[ziedinc]

Hello Uncle Jim and everybody!
(I apologize for any grammar and spelling mistakes, English isn't my mother tongue and I write in another language, but there isn't anything as educating and great as this thread in my language)
I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet (not even nearly) so if this has been discussed tell me and I'll keep on reading. So what books would you suggest to read? I mean recent contemporary novels. Very little part of British or American books are translated and published over here so I try to read good stuff in original language as much as I can, but then it is quite hard to judge the book if you buy it online, and I’ve been disappointed too many times buying anything only because it’s a bestseller. And I prefer learning from good books. I know that writers are more critical of the fellow writers than any reader or editor, so if you say it’s good, it must be brilliant :)
Thanks!

[Chris Grey]

As long as we're on the thesaurus:

The lacerates ran down my face.

What's a good synonym for "tears"?

[James D. Macdonald]

"Tears" is perfectly acceptable, I think. Why would you need a synonym?

---------------

Welcome, ziedinc.

I've recommended a number of books over the course of this thread. Here's a collection of some of them. (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/UncleJim.html) (I haven't updated it lately but this does cover the first half of the thread.)

[cooeedownunder]

Ah yes, tears are good. So is cried...just make sure the narrative surrounding it makes it logical for the tears or the crying.

[ricmic]

Wow, that was a long thread! I kept a text document open to save posts that I found particularly useful. Of course, lots of the advice given here has been covered elsewhere, but, Jim, I've rarely seen it so to the point.

About openings: you need a person, a place and a problem. That's it. Not seventeen different techniques on how to place a good hook. All the major characters should be there by page 100. Now, that's a number I can work with.

I loved the chess analogy. When you start a novel, open up the game and put the characters in strategically chosen places. When they move on (the pieces or characters, not the places) and crisscross the board, see that their a$$ is covered. Keep in mind that every move should support the goal of a checkmate. You can't afford to have a knight take a break at the rim of the board, or you'll lose against a competent player.

I didn't click on links before 2006, so I missed the link on Celtic Knotwork. I found the page with the books you recommended, and there's a book on Celtic Knotwork. If that's the only link, I'm cool. But I think I remember an illustration somewhere. If somebody remembers another link, could you post it? The only knots I encounter in plots are Gordic ones. ;)

I'm going to retype and analyze chapters from my favorite novels. I found that particularly enlightening. Again, I've done that before, but not as methodically, not sentence by sentence.

Oh, and the permission slips, not only pdfs, allowing aforementioned writer to Write Badly, but your descriptions on how you outline. I keep kind of a journal where I keep thoughts and snippets. All the time, it goes like this: Well, okay, the Hero is in this restaurant, no, too quiet, a bar, a club, an AA meeting, a Star Trek convention. No. Okay the Hero is in Public Place. There he...

I always felt there was something wrong with me. It works for me, and your experience shows me I don't need my head examined. Not necessarily, that is.

So, thank you. The thread is great.

ricmic

Okay, BIC time.

[ziedinc]

thanks! I had seen you recommending the chess book and some others but haven't got to the posts where you comment most if those books. That's a nice collection of nooks and some great links as well.

[Krintar]

I always felt there was something wrong with me.
I can't imagine how trite and boring life would be if there were nothing wrong with me ;)

[euclid]

I use the right click synonyms option in Word allll the time.

Never knew about that. Could be useful. Thanks for that.

[euclid]

I can't imagine how trite and boring life would be if there were nothing wrong with me ;)

That would make me the most interesting person on the planet ! :)

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

Jim, do you have a working link to your comments on "that silly Salon article" (the tragedy of the midlist author one)?

I just read a ton of blogs and blog comments about it. Much food for thought.

[James D. Macdonald]

Jim, do you have a working link to your comments on "that silly Salon article" (the tragedy of the midlist author one)?


Page 32 and following in this thread. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=32

You can use Google better than the (poor, broken) search function that comes with this site. Use site:absolutewrite.com "Uncle Jim" then whatever term you're looking for.

[Me&BacchusGoIntoABar]

Good hunting, thanks. Man, that article really stirred up a lot of anger (your comments seemed quite sensible to me). I find that interesting, since the whiner did at least have an interesting tale to tell and there were some lessons in it--even if many of those were "this is how not to approach a writing career."

This guy (http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/405207.html) was quite funny about it all, although I'm not sure how I feel about the unanimous chorus of "Burn her!" from his blog readers. Maybe I'm too nice.

[Neversage]

Book 1 is off to beta readers, time to start book 2. I know nothing.

[K. Taylor]

How would you format a section that's on TV, that your characters are watching?
Putting the TV scene in italics works for short bursts, but a lot of people don't want to read a full page in that. And yes, they need to review what's on the screen, so it can't be left out. I want to make it clear it's not a "real" scene without hitting the readers over the head with obviousness....

[smsarber]

How would you format a section that's on TV, that your characters are watching?
Putting the TV scene in italics works for short bursts, but a lot of people don't want to read a full page in that. And yes, they need to review what's on the screen, so it can't be left out. I want to make it clear it's not a "real" scene without hitting the readers over the head with obviousness....


Italics are probably fine... just remember Uncle Jim's BIG RULE: Don't confuse the readers.

[Neversage]

How would you format a section that's on TV, that your characters are watching?
Putting the TV scene in italics works for short bursts, but a lot of people don't want to read a full page in that. And yes, they need to review what's on the screen, so it can't be left out. I want to make it clear it's not a "real" scene without hitting the readers over the head with obviousness....

I reckon you could do it many ways providing, as Sarber said, you don't confuse the reader. You could just add the TV like another speaker with its own dialogue tags, but that may not work for your scene.

I've seen some books just do a line breaks before and after the TV or newspaper bit. I hope some of this helps.

[euclid]

Do you pause for breath when you verbalize in your mind? Does unconscious alliteration leap out at you? Does the repetition of certain words and phrases become obvious to you?

I've been reading this ms out loud. I came across one of my characters smoking a pipe (while there's a thunderstorm going on outside). "His pipe glowed in the gathering gloom." This is unintentional alliteration. Is this something I should change?

Also, the thunderstorm has no real purpose or relevance. It's there to slow the pace at the start of the scene and to give the reader a mental picture of the scene. Do thunderstorms have to be significant, or to pressage bad or significant events?

[James D. Macdonald]

Yes, that's alliteration. Yes, you should consider changing it.

Why doesn't your thunderstorm serve a function? Every word needs to either support the theme, reveal character, or advance the plot.

If your subconscious is trying to support the theme with this storm, look to see where else that theme might trying to break through.

[euclid]

Yes, that's alliteration. Yes, you should consider changing it.

Why doesn't your thunderstorm serve a function? Every word needs to either support the theme, reveal character, or advance the plot.

If your subconscious is trying to support the theme with this storm, look to see where else that theme might trying to break through.

The theme of the book revolves around the excesses of the Nazi regime, so I suppose there's a gloomy, stormy feel to the whole thing. Not sure what you mean about the theme trying to break through... Or what I should do about it if I did locate these occurrences.

Why should I change the unintentional alliteration? What harm is it doing?

[James D. Macdonald]

The theme of the book revolves around the excesses of the Nazi regime, so I suppose there's a gloomy, stormy feel to the whole thing. Not sure what you mean about the theme trying to break through... Or what I should do about it if I did locate these occurrences.


Sharpen, focus, and unify them.


Why should I change the unintentional alliteration? What harm is it doing?

Why should you make your prose the best and most polished that you can? Why should you remove or change clumsy bits? I dunno. You tell me.

[lucidzfl]

James, I asked this on the Roundtable forum (Accidently, I meant it for the novels forum)

How do you approach chase/hunting/battle scenes? The only way I can visualize it is to draw it on paper, or even use figurines to determine positioning and reactions.

Is there a better way?

[euclid]

Sharpen, focus, and unify them.

Right. Thanks. Will do.


Why should you make your prose the best and most polished that you can? Why should you remove or change clumsy bits? I dunno. You tell me.

Right. Sorry, Jim. I suppose I should have asked:

When is it a good idea to use (intentional) alliteration?

[James D. Macdonald]

When is it a good idea to use (intentional) alliteration?

Here is an example:

During the whole of a dull, dark, and soundless day in the autumn of the year, when the clouds hung oppressively low in the heavens, I had been passing alone, on horseback, through a singularly dreary tract of country; and at length found myself, as the shades of evening drew on, within view of the melancholy House of Usher. You are writing a 100,000 word poem. Every word must be there for the right reason, including its sound. You might want to read "The Philosophy of Composition" (http://xroads.virginia.edu/%7EHYPER/poe/composition.html) by Edgar Allan Poe (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761568650/edgar_allan_poe.html) for more thoughts on this. It's short.

I first read that essay when I was in high school, and it influenced me deeply. Poe, himself, was a great literary innovator. You could have worse models.

Just in case you've not read The Raven (http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html), here it is.

Read it silently, then read it aloud. See how different the experience is.

[Salis]

Good essay, but Poe was also the fellow who loved to plagiarize, so as much as I loved The Cask of Amontillado, there are better role models.

[James D. Macdonald]

The copyright laws then were not as they are now, which is a big part of why Poe died in poverty. (He made $9, total, from "The Raven.")

but Poe was also the fellow who loved to plagiarize,

What do you base that on?

[James D. Macdonald]

E. A. Poe, Flamewarrior (http://www.eapoe.org/works/criticsm/bj45lh03.htm). Newpaper letter columns were the messageboards of the day.

The subject is plagiarism.

[motormind]

Why should you make your prose the best and most polished that you can? Why should you remove or change clumsy bits? I dunno. You tell me.

Prose that's too polished tends to be a bit stale and boring. I like it when sentences wriggle like restless worms.

[MondayNightFrungy]

Hello Mr. Macdonald... I was wondering, what is a good way to learn how to make your descriptive prose more compelling and... colorful?

I have tried thesauruses and even a few books on the subject but somehow I still feel something is missing. Well, a whole lot of something, to be exact.

Anyways... what suggestions would you have?

[James D. Macdonald]

Prose that's too polished tends to be a bit stale and boring.

Stale and boring prose is not, of its nature, polished.

[James D. Macdonald]

Anyways... what suggestions would you have?


Memorize a whole bunch of Shakespeare. Recite it aloud to inanimate objects (although cattle will do if no inanimate objects present themselves), preferably out of doors, in a loud voice.

People may start avoiding you, but your prose will become much more vivid.

[Salis]

What do you base that on?

He wrote a piece about a fellow who traveled to the Moon (fiction!) and lifted whole sections verbatim from encyclopedia-like books of the day. See here (http://www.amazon.com/Sun-Moon-Remarkable-Journalists-Nineteenth-Century/dp/0465002579/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251582776&sr=8-9) for exact details (and a really good book besides). To be specific about it, the example isn't "oh he stole an idea", he literally just copied entire paragraphs from another (scientific) book to lend his description of intra-planetary flight a "authentic" air. Ironically, he was known for strongly condemning other authors for alleged plagiarism. No one's perfect, I guess?

Still one of my favorite authors.

[Blue Sky]

Memorize a whole bunch of Shakespeare. Recite it aloud to inanimate objects (although cattle will do if no inanimate objects present themselves), preferably out of doors, in a loud voice.

People may start avoiding you, but your prose will become much more vivid.

For a break I recommend mooing at the cows. I've had some interesting responses. As long as people are avoiding you anyway.

Moo! :)

[MondayNightFrungy]

Memorize a whole bunch of Shakespeare. Recite it aloud to inanimate objects (although cattle will do if no inanimate objects present themselves), preferably out of doors, in a loud voice.

People may start avoiding you, but your prose will become much more vivid.
I'll wear my cell phone ear-set and tap it from time to time. That way they'll think I'm actually talking to someone else who's crazy! :D

[mkcbunny]

Page 32 and following in this thread. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6710&page=32

You can use Google better than the (poor, broken) search function that comes with this site. Use site:absolutewrite.com "Uncle Jim" then whatever term you're looking for.

Wow. I missed this one. Frankly, I couldn't finish the article. All the moaning and groaning both bored and irritated me. It smacks of the "entitled artist" syndrome. $40k per year? I could live on that, and I live in the Bay Area, one of the most expensive places in the country. What artist's heart hasn't been broken over something? Stop complaining. It's one thing if you are broke and frustrated, wondering if you should quit because you're digging yourself into debt, but if you are making that income? I'd be happy to be so "unhappy."

[Calliopenjo]

For general interest, The Ten Best Southern Novels of All Time (http://www.oxfordamerican.org/articles/2009/aug/27/best-southern-novels-all-time/)is an interesting list. I say that because Mark Twain's The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn is listed in this article. I don't know if anybody remembers but there was controversy over letting children read this book. Why? It has the word "Nigger" in it.

[James D. Macdonald]

The Dreadful Secret Revealed (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011593.html#364695)

[callalily61]

The Dreadful Secret Revealed (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011593.html#364695)

:roll:

[Delhomeboy]

The Dreadful Secret Revealed (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011593.html#364695)

:ROFL:I wonder why that is?

[RJK]

Question for UJ. Why is an occasional alliteration, unintentional or not, bad?

[James D. Macdonald]

Because it draws attention to the words. If you want to draw attention to the words, that's okay. If you don't, it's not so okay.

Alliteration can also produce effects. If you want to produce the effect of silken curtains swishing, that's okay. If there isn't a silken curtain in a hundred miles, that's not so okay.

"Take care of the sounds and the sense will take care of itself."

[Dicentra P]

:ROFL:I wonder why that is?

For the same reason many strike actor/actress off the list probably. (trying not to be a spoiler) One always wonders where acting ends and the person begins.

[5bcarnies]

The Dreadful Secret Revealed (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/011593.html#364695)

I am reminded on 'Finding Forrester". Great movie. I believe Sean Connery's character mentioned that this was why he wrote as well.

[James D. Macdonald]

The thread continues in Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2 (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154203).


Please see also:

Index to the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim Thread (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754)

Uncle Jim, undiluted (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7987)