Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

[Fresie]

Uncle Jim, I know it's a bit late, but I've just read your Knight Story and I'm awed. Knocked-out. This is such a strong piece. All myth, all atmosphere. It'll be haunting me for a long time.

Guess, I'd better stick around. If one day I come up with something 30% as good, I'll think my life hasn't been in vain. Really.

That was the biggest lesson you've taught me here.

Here's the link, in case somebody new like myself hasn't seen it yet.

p197.ezboard.com/fabsolut...&stop=1080 (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=1061&stop=1080)

[evanaharris]

Oh, jeez. I'm a mystery writer. A bit of a surprise, considering I write surreal fantasy

five words: the films of david lynch.

particularly mulholland drive

[Fresie]

five words: the films of david lynch.

Exactly my point. You can do anything you want provided it's backed-up by an entertaining story with a convincing plot.

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, Fresie -- that's just a little-bittie story outline. More a summary, really. Please, drop by my <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/" target="_new">home page</a> and pick out a book for yourself. (I've posted the first chapters from most of them.)

[Fresie]

Please, drop by my home page and pick out a book for yourself.

Uncle Jim, did you write all those books???

Great openings. The writing seems so deceivingly straightforward. You write about totally fantastic things, but everything's clear to the reader. I definitely need to get a book or two.

Now I compare your writing with the editing examples you gave here and at the Share Your Work board and I think I start to see the logic behind it.

Jeez, one must practice for at least twenty years to write like this!! :(

[Joanclr]

I agree! I just got finished reading The Apocalypse Door, and I was wowed--the style is fluid, wonderfully clear, and just begs to be read. It has two legs and it talks to you.

I guess, after all, that is the main goal.

:)

[James D Macdonald]

Uncle Jim, did you write all those books???

Yes, with my coauthor and beloved wife. As one of the characters says in <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812517040/ref=nosim/madhousemanor" target="_new">The Price of the Stars</A>, "It's all for sale."

My grandfather, Johan Esterl, owned one of the first movie theatres in Wisconsin. He'd been a publican; but when Prohibition was on the horizon, he invested in a nickelodeon.

The business did well. Every night he'd stand outside the theatre when the movie got out, shaking hands with the patrons.

"Good show, John!" folks would say.

"Better one tomorrow," he'd reply.

That's the something that's guided me. Give people entertainment. Give them a "better show tomorrow."

Folks, let's raise a beer to my grandfather.

He died before I was born, but all my life I heard about him, and nothing but good.

[ChunkyC]

Definitely good advice. :cheers

[paritoshuttam]

Hi
I have this problem of pacing the dialogues. When there are a couple of pages of dialogues running together, I get the feeling that is going too fast; I need to slow down things a bit. So I put in fillers between dialgoues, most of which, unfortunately, have no other function but that of being dialogue-slowers. Essentially, stuff like he/she grinned/smiled/shrugged/nodded/shook his head/rolled his eyes ad infinitum.
I have felt silly writing it, and this was confirmed when I read in a book that this was a mistake inexperienced writers make.
What would you do about it, Uncle Jim? I remember your suggestion to look at ten pages from far and make out if there is too much of blocky stuff (too much description) or staggered stuff (too many dialogues). How do I avoid having too much of that staggered stuff?

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[ChunkyC]

Hi Paritosh.

Uncle Jim will have some great suggestions for you, I'm sure.

One thing you can try to do is use these tags and additional text between the dialogue to show character. There's an online resource I use to help with a person's body language:

members.aol.com/nonverbal2/diction1.htm (http://members.aol.com/nonverbal2/diction1.htm)

I find it helps me come up with things for my characters to do while talking, that reveal something about them and their attitude toward the person they are conversing with. As with everything, you can overdo this as well, but a frown here, a shoulders turned away stance there, can help fill out an otherwise dialogue-heavy scene.

[maestrowork]

There are many techniques and Uncle Jim has touched upon them. Use internal monologue here and there to break up the dialogue -- especially at points where the characters "ponder." In real life, rarely do we just sit there and speak to each other for a period of time without moving or stopping. Again, it's about movement. Show your characters doing something (cutting an onion? Fiddling with the TV remote? etc. that shows characters). When you find a logical "pause" in the dialogue, slip into internal monologue or briefly describe what is going on in the surrounding (to reflect the mood)... like:
...
"Why are you leaving?"
"Who cares? What do you want from me?" [a logical pause]
He stared straight. Her face was glowing in the sun but all he could see was a shroud of darkness. He couldn't escape it.
"I don't know..." he said. But he did -- he wanted to kill her.
...

As with anything, don't overdo it. My feeling is that pacing is kind of an art -- you need to know when to keep the pace brisk, or slow it down.

[James D Macdonald]

Several suggestions:

Break up the scenes. Every couple of pages, do a linebreak and switch to a more narrative-heavy scene.

Beware "blue screen work." That refers to actors working in front of a blue screen, where the special effects technicians will later add backgrounds, computer-generated characters, and so on. Don't have your characters working in an otherwise empty sound stage. You need to put in the backgrounds, bits of business, other characters, reactions, and so on.

Read your work aloud. At the point where you get annoyed with the endless dialog, the readers will be too. Put a checkmark in the margin there. Cut everything from that point on.

Find a novel by an author you admire. Find a chapter in that novel that contains dialog. Retype that chapter.

Look for the most telling lines of dialog. Use them to stand for the rest of the conversation.

[Fresie]

Great resource, Chunky (oh how do you prefer to be addressed?)

I especially loved this one, about crossing one's arms:

women use open arm positions with men they like, but cross-arms with men they dislike (men, on the other hand, show no difference);

(Puzzled) Having thought about it, that's exactly what I do!

Excellent resource for giving subtle clues through dialogue. The reader might get the author's message without ever realizing it.

[Fresie]

Uncle Jim, I have a related question, if you don't mind. You say:

Break up the scenes. Every couple of pages, do a linebreak and switch to a more narrative-heavy scene.

I know what I'm asking is very stupid, but still: how long an average scene would ideally be? Of course it's very much like asking "How long is a Chinaman?", but if we talk about the reader's attention span, what length would the reader be more comfortable with, normally? The above-mentioned couple of pages? Or a bit more? Of course it can even be a couple of paragraphs, I understand that, but I'm curious about some kind of average. It must exist, I can feel it. ;)

Thank you!

Fresie

PS. Eeh, :o and maybe you could add a few words about scene structure? Thank you! (runs for cover)

[ChunkyC]

Fresie, Chunky or CC is fine, thanks for asking. Glad you liked the dictionary. Just have to make sure to resist the urge to use the definition name in the story, hehe.

The reader isn't likely to consciously consider these mannerisms as we do when incorporating them into our stories, but should react to them just as they would in the 'real world'. Hopefully, by using suggestions like Uncle Jim's and bits and pieces of this kind of 'stage business', your readers will say 'man, so-and-so's dialogue is so real' without being able to put their finger on what it is that appeals to them so much.

[Jules Hall]

Fresie... I wondered something similar a while back, and had a look at scene length in a few published books. There was a lot of variation; different authors and different genres seemed to vary from each other a lot, different types of scene even more. But, 500 words (or 2 pages of manuscript) to 1000 words seemed fairly average, with "action" scenes tending to be the longest.

Out of interest, my average scene length (when I'm not making conscious effort to write scenes of a particular length) is about 600 words. I've scene one piece of advice (on www.hollylisle.com) that suggests that if you want to write a story of a particular length, determine your average scene length, divide your target length by that and then outline that many scenes. It's an interesting approach, but probably not something I'll be doing myself in the near future... right now, I'm more concerned with making the story feel right than making it a particular length. It'll be the length it wants to be.

[Fresie]

right now, I'm more concerned with making the story feel right than making it a particular length. It'll be the length it wants to be.

Yeah... in the end of the day, that's right. It's just that this little bookkeeper guy in me raises his head from time to time. :jump

[maestrowork]

My advice is, don't worry about length. There's no set rules. It depends on the scene. If you do find yourself writing pages after pages of dialogue, the problem probably is not the dialogue itself, but the scene. You probably have something that is too "telling" and stagnant. Uncle Jim gave great advice: it's time to break them up. Find a dramatic break and split it... move the second part to another chapter or something...

"Art is re-arrangement."

UJ was also right when he said, "Put your characters in some settings and let them do something." That would probably help a lot.

Have you ever seen "When Harry Met Sally"? Watch it, and study it. The script (and the eventual movie) is heavily based on dialogues. As a matter of fact, the early script had nothing but dialogue. However, watch what they did with the scenes... the characters are ALWAYS doing something. For example, in an earlier scene, when Harry and Sally talk while they drive to New York. They don't just sit in the car and talk, talk, talk. She's fussing around, and guess what he is doing? He's eating grapes and spitting out seeds... that shows characters and also makes the scene dynamic and fun and interesting, thus making the dialogue more real as well.

[qatz]

she denies, however, corrupting youngsters.

jim was right. all stories are both plot and character driven.

even proust.

i was right too. he did not disagree with me.

not that it matters.

love that redundant owl.

[paritoshuttam]

Thanks everyone, for the suggestions. The verbal dictionary was good. So also was Uncle Jim's suggestion about breaking up the scene. That is mending things from a higher point of view.

Ya maestro, I have watched When Harry Met Sally a couple of times. Loved the dialogues. Well in a movie, the characters have got to be doing something. I mean they should in a novel too, but it is that much more apparent in a movie. Of course it does help if you have Meg Ryan playing one of your characters :p

I noticed all of you write "dialog", not "dialogue". In India, we use British English, so I am used to writing dialogue.

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[maestrowork]

I use "dialogue" -- perhaps it has something to do with my British education as well. :grin

A novel is no different than a movie in a sense you have characters doing/saying something interesting and you have a story. You can learn quite a lot from "good" movies. Anyway, if you find your characters talking a lot in a scene (like in When Harry Met Sally), put them in a setting (say, the Diner! :jump ) and have them do something interesting WHILE they're talking (He talks while chomping on his sandwich, mouth full. She speaks tentatively, picking out things she doesn't like in her sandwich, taking tiny bites. Etc.)

[qatz]

please don't worry a bit about using british english when we use american. i often enquire rather than inquire, myself. but the spelling variations are, i think, quite understandable. glad you're here and hope you stay. what part of india are you from, may i ask?

[Fresie]

I've just been admiring (for the umpteenth time) the beginning of Iris Murdoch's Philosopher's Pupil. Two and a half pages of small print -- all dialogue, and only a couple of dialogue tags in the very beginning to indicate who's who. Further on, it's just direct speech, and you don't get confused who's who because each person has a very distinctive speech pattern that gives away their mood and character. You simply see them talk, no dialogue tags needed. And it grabs you from the very beginning although it's nothing but a family argument!

Somewhere else (guess, it was also Iris Murdoch -- :smack yess! it was in The Black Prince!) there are four or five characters speaking to each other for a good two or three pages, and there're no dialogue tags -- nor actions described, as far as I remember. That's somebody to learn dialogue skills from!

[Chris Goja]

He is a sword-touting mercenary with amnesia on the mend, she is a single mother with an attitude, suspected of witchcraft. They fight... well, if not crime, then at least back. With a vengeance.

You want to read their story? It's over here:

http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm31.showMessage?topicID=285.topic


And chapter 4 is up... Just the conclusion left before the Edit (tm).

[Jules Hall]

LOL

I've never seen a 'they fight crime' parody before :)

On the subject of UK v US English, does anybody know if it's a problem submitting manuscripts written in UK English to US publishers?

[James D Macdonald]

There's no problem submitting books written in UK english to US publishers, provided you personally are from the UK and speak UK english like a native.

It's when Americans try to speak UK english and get it wrong that editors shake their heads in amazement.

[sfsassenach]

Jim:

Unclear if you're talking simply about spelling [color vs. colour] other terms.

Don't you think if a UK writer submitted to an American editor and used terms like:

jumper
lounge
high street
bank holiday

...just to name a few...they'd be asking for trouble? A lot of editors, especially younger ones, may not know UK terms.

I've had short stories published in British little magazines, and always use use a British style.

[James D Macdonald]

American authors who write faux-Brit often miss things like jumper and torch even while using colour and kerb.

Be consistent with the language you're most familiar with.

If the story is sufficiently strong, the British usage won't matter. If the story isn't strong enough, a translation into American (missing some of the fine points there along the way) likely won't help.

If a publisher buys the work, and they decide to translate it into American idiom, they'll hire their own person to make the changes.

[paritoshuttam]

Hi Gatz
I am from Pune (close to Bombay). Thanks for asking. Sure I would love to stay and follow this board. It is wonderful; one gets to learn a lot. Thanks to everybody and especially to Uncle Jim.
Since I am neither American nor British, the usage and spellings get mixed up sometimes. British usage due to historical reasons, and American culture has been pervasive in modern times :-)
I am at ease with variant spellings but when it comes to usage--sidewalk or pavement, torch or flashlight--I can stumble, and worse, not even realise it.

- Paritosh.
p.s. When I reply to a particular post, why doesn't the subject appear automatically in my reply?

[SarahjaneinNZ]

Hey paritosh- just pretend you're an Underite. We borrow freely from both countries here- it's a pavement or a sidewalk or a footpath, whatever you like. :)

[wwwatcher]

"why doesn't the subject appear automatically in my reply?"

Only a techi knows for sure. However, if you click the reply under their username their post will be at the bottom of your reply screen and then you can check it and copy and paste, which helps a bit.

It took me a few months to figure this out.

By the way people I'm a "mystery writer" and it was a surprise to me as well.

Faye

[reph]

Paritosh, the subject should appear automatically if you log in before posting a reply.

[pdr]

Sorry to disagree Jim but I have discovered that I can sell stories in the USA more readily if I've changed all the spellings and idioms to American ones. Some American magazines like the different flavour of a story from elsewhere and say so. Then I don't have to do a thing but often I can't sell my work until it's been 'Americanised'.
A children's picture book writer and illustrator friend tells me his publisher (a large multinational company) tells him to consider the American market when writing a young children's picture book. He must not show a vehicle on the left side of a road or draw local houses or anything 'strange' to the American culture and he is expected to include some small American mammals in his illustrations. This seems to have been going on for some time because a favourite picture book of my children was Pat Hutchins 'Rosy's Walk' -1968- and the American version includes the drawing of a gopher which does not appear in the original British version! And I do remember when teaching that it was a source of considerable annoyance to my English department teachers that American books kept their Americanisms even when published in our country or the UK but we had to be careful about buying cheap print runs of British novels because if they had been published by American companies then all the spellings and some idioms would have been 'Americanised'. There was a wonderous version of one of Stan Barstow's books that tried to turn Yorkshire expressions into American expressions with most peculiar results!

[lwmurdock]

via BoingBoing (http://boingboing.net/)
-----------------------
Strange Horizons, Fiction Submission Guidelines information page:

Stories We See Too Often (http://www.strangehorizons.com/guidelines/fiction-common.shtml)

Horror Stories We See Too Often (http://www.strangehorizons.com/guidelines/fiction-common-horror.shtml)
-----------------------
1. Person is (metaphorically) at point A, wants to be at point B. Looks at point B, says "I want to be at point B." Walks to point B, encountering no meaningful obstacles or difficulties. The end. (A.k.a. the linear plot.)

Tom Clancy's Red Rabbit fits this perfectly. I want to defect. Hey thats a CIA agent. Help me defect. OK Let's go. Yay we defected without a hitch... BAH!

[James D Macdonald]

I defer to your expert knowledge, pdr.

I do know that British books that are reprinted in the USA are often "Americanized," and that it's not often the authors themselves who are doing it.

[James D Macdonald]

Okay, let's look at a scene.

First, the scene. Second, I'll try to explain word-by-word what I was thinking while writing it.

This is the opening scene from a short story. A bit over five hundred words, it goes three lines onto a third page in manuscript format.



<hr>

Mrs. Roger Collins stood in the visiting room of her home. "Mansion" would have been a better word. The sun shone in through a bay window flanked by French doors. Filmy drapes kept the sun from bleaching the delicate cloth on the circular table in the center of the room. Spiced air from the gardens gently wafted in.

Mrs. Collins was expecting her friend Mrs. Frederick Baxter. She had something she wanted to talk to Shirley about. Last night the strangest thing happened. Mary Collins had known for years that the house was haunted, because there was a window on the second floor that would not stay closed if it wasn't locked. But last night, in the misty dark of twilight, while entering the upstairs guest bedroom, she saw the translucent shape of a young lady, and the apparition looked at her and she felt --

"Mary, dear!"

It was Shirley, being shown in by Mr. Collins. Mr. Collins had retired at the end of the war, and he had been very helpful during his wife's recent illness.

Mary had the tea things ready, and the tea itself, a nice oolong with a great deal of milk and sugar, occupied their time along with the small talk of doings in the town. Mr. Collins removed himself to his study. He had always played the stock market, and played it well. The war had left him wealthy, still quite young, for munitions had been greatly in demand. The prosperity that the whole nation now experienced made his investments more valuable by the day, while the contacts that he had across the nation gave him insights that perhaps other men didn't have.

Now was the time for Mary to tell the story, for that delightful frisson, in the bright afternoon.

"I'm sure you'll think I'm being silly," Mary said, "but I felt such a feeling of sadness coming from that woman. It was like a palpable wave. I gasped and took a step backward. Then I switched on the light, and she was gone!"

"You're so brave," Shirley said. "I'm sure I would have screamed and run."

"I was too surprised," Mary said. "And it wasn't until the light was on that I realized it wasn't a real woman at all; she was gone. She would have had to come past me to leave the room, you know. I looked under the bed and in the closet, and in the bathroom, but she was gone completely. It was only then that I realize I'd been able to see through her."

"You could? What are you going to do now?"

Mary's eyes sparkled, and she sipped her tea. "I thought it would such great fun to have a seance."

"Are you quite certain? I mean, if you felt this sadness ... that can't be good."

"She wants help, the poor thing," Mary said. "This is an old house. After all these years of opening the window, she's finally gotten to trust me enough to appear and ask for my help."

"What does Roger say about your plan?"

"Oh, I haven't told him. You know what a stick-in-the-mud he is."

<hr>

[James D Macdonald]

<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>

Mrs. Roger Collins <span style="color:red;">[Our protagonist]</span> stood in the visiting room of her home. <span style="color:red;"></span> "Mansion" would have been a better word. <span style="color:red;">[A bit of countersinking there for the benefit of the deaf old lady in the back row. Perhaps this was unnecessary. I might cut this from another draft, or I might not.]</span> The sun shone in through a bay window flanked by French doors. <span style="color:red;">[Simple description, to contrast with the fancier description that's coming in the next sentence. I'm trying to build a picture of the room.]</span> Filmy drapes kept the sun from bleaching the delicate cloth on the circular table in the center of the room.<span style="color:red;">[Lots of adjectives in that sentence, eh? The sun -- our scene is set in California, and our theme is bringing light to dark places (revealing secrets). Filmy drapes are ones that can be seen through. A mystery is obscured, but will be revealed. A character will later walk through those French doors. The table is the location of the seance that's being planned; its shape represents unity. Bleaching the tablecloth suggests that revealing the truth may not be a good thing. That the tablecloth [i]can be bleached shows that it is not white -- it's not pure. That's the secret again, the mystery that will be revealed by the end.]</span> Spiced air from the gardens gently wafted in.<span style="color:red;">[That garden is the location of the climax. The secret is indeed a "spicy" one. It involves adultery, amongst other things. This room is an important location; other rooms in the house are described far less fully. Here the room must stand for the others -- the picture the reader gets will form a template for the rest of the house.]</span>

Mrs. Collins was expecting her friend Mrs. Frederick Baxter.<span style="color:red;">[Straight narrative, introduces a second major (but not main) character.]</span> She had something she wanted to talk to Shirley about.<span style="color:red;">[Lets us know that Mrs. Baxter also is her husband's property, that we're in a certain social millieu. Tells us the character's name (by which we'll know her for the rest of the story). I say "talk to" rather than "talk with" to show what the power relationship is between these two characters.]</span> Last night the strangest thing happened. <span style="color:red;">[Straight narrative, introduces the plot.]</span> Mary Collins had known for years that the house was haunted, because there was a window on the second floor that would not stay closed if it wasn't locked. <span style="color:red;">[Setting the genre. This is a ghost story, in addition to being a mystery. The window is a red herring, by the way, but it will give our characters something to think about and something to do while the rest of the plot works out. It will also motivate our characters to stand where they need to be standing for certain crucial developments later.]</span> But last night, in the misty dark of twilight,<span style="color:red;">[Hammering home the darkness/obscurity imagery; contrast with the sunny day (though the sun is obscured as well).]</span> while entering the upstairs guest bedroom,<span style="color:red;">[Another important location, used in the run-up to the climax]</span> she saw the translucent<span style="color:red;">[The clarity imagery again.]</span> shape of a young lady, and the apparition looked at her and she felt --<span style="color:red;">[Oh, yes, indeed. Her feelings are very important in what is to come. But we aren't told just yet what those feelings were, because she thinks she knows them, but she really doesn't. I use the em-dash to show that the narrative is broken abruptly by the next bit of dialog. We're in third person limited, here, showing Mary's thoughts. The rest of the story will be in third person limited from the point of view of another character, who will be introduced in the next scene. This is the only time we'll be able to see our protagonist this clearly. We need to build up sympathy for her now.]</span>

"Mary, dear!"<span style="color:red;">[Dialog, breaking in on, and breaking up, that rather long narrative block we just had. Reinforces our protagonist's name. Reveals the charcter of the speaker.]</span>

It was Shirley, being shown in by Mr. Collins.<span style="color:red;">[Generally, it was is a weak opening for a paragraph. Shirley and Mr. Collins are major characters, but not protagonists. I don't want to take the focus off Mary Collins.]</span> Mr. Collins had retired at the end of the war, and he had been very helpful during his wife's recent illness.<span style="color:red;">the Great War rather than the recent war, in order to more firmly establish the time. That "recent illness" is very important, but I want to slip it by the readers. Sure, the clue's there, and it's on the very first page, but I don't want them to pick up on it yet. So, I put it in a weak paragraph that's also introducing Mr. Collins (the villain of the piece, as it happens).]</span>

Mary had the tea things ready, and the tea itself, a nice oolong with a great deal of milk and sugar, occupied their time along with the small talk of doings in the town.<span style="color:red;">[A busy, fussy sentence to show the frivolous nature of our main characters, and to contrast with what worse is to come. Reveals character, too -- these are tea drinkers (affected), who artificially sweeten their lives. The milk makes the tea very light and cool -- again the darkness/light secrets/truth theme.]</span> Mr. Collins removed himself to his study.<span style="color:red;">[Get him off stage, so we can get the rest of the plot rolling. "Removed himself" is affected -- we're putting on airs here. The sentence is otherwise quite plain, in contrast to the preceding one.]</span> He had always played the stock market, and played it well. The war had left him wealthy, still quite young, for munitions had been greatly in demand. The prosperity that the whole nation now experienced made his investments more valuable by the day, while the contacts that he had across the nation gave him insights that perhaps other men didn't have.<span style="color:red;">[More of Mr. Collins' character: "insights...other men didn't have" suggests secrecy (and he has a secret, oh my, yes). We talk more about the money he has ... he's nouveau riche. Perhaps he's a poser? I missed another opportunity to plant the timeframe here: Writing "greatly in demand in Flanders" would have done the trick. Someone who has made his money as a war profiteer is not exactly an admirable man. I'm trying to imply that he's not what he really seems, and is not a good person.]</span>

Now was the time for Mary to tell the story, for that delightful frisson, in the bright afternoon.<span style="color:red;">[Short paragraph, simple style, for contrast. The light imagery again. "Frisson" to show the class and style, and affected manner, of the characters. A weak opening on this paragraph, to contrast with the strong one that's coming, and perhaps make that one stronger than it otherwise would be by comparison.]</span>

"I'm sure you'll think I'm being silly," Mary said, "but I felt such a feeling of sadness coming from that woman.<span style="color:red;">"That woman" is traditionally the name that wives give to their husbands' sweeties. Sadness, grief, woe -- yeah, we'll have that in spades before the end. Being silly? Yes, that's how Mary thinks of herself.]</span> It was like a palpable wave.<span style="color:red;">[Mary speaks in cliche. This to reveal character. She's shallow.]</span> I gasped and took a step backward. Then I switched on the light, and she was gone!"<span style="color:red;"></span>

"You're so brave," Shirley said. "I'm sure I would have screamed and run."<span style="color:red;">[An ironic comment, when we learn what [i]really happened, and see what will happen. Sets up the climax for the reader. Also reveals character.]</span>

"I was too surprised," Mary said. <span style="color:red;">[You can say that again, sweetie.]</span> "And it wasn't until the light was on that I realized it wasn't a real woman at all; she was gone.<span style="color:red;">[Truth/reality light/dark knowledge/secrets. And a hint of the ultimate secret here. This sentence pulls a lot of freight.]</span> She would have had to come past me to leave the room, you know. I looked under the bed and in the closet, and in the bathroom, but she was gone completely.<span style="color:red;">[Yes, she's gone. If we want to talk about the young woman as being a character, no, she doesn't act in this story. But she's very important, as we'll see. It's important to me to show that she isn't really here, physically.]</span> It was only then that I realize I'd been able to see through her."<span style="color:red;">[The mystery will be revealed. I'm promising the reader that all will be made clear in the end. Making a deal with the reader -- go along with me, believe in ghosts for a minute, and I'll tell you what the reality is.]</span>

"You could? What are you going to do now?"<span style="color:red;">[Good questions. Get the plot moving.]</span>

Mary's eyes sparkled, and she sipped her tea. "I thought it would such great fun to have a seance."<span style="color:red;">[Good innocent fun. But toying with dark powers. All while holding that light, sweet tea. The sparkling eyes are for innocence. Innocence is one of the things that we'll lose when the revelation comes, when the light reaches the dark places.]</span>

"Are you quite certain? I mean, if you felt this sadness ... that can't be good."<span style="color:red;">[Listen to Shirley, Mary! Shirley is the reader's voice here. And she's right. It isn't good. But, if Mary doesn't have her seance this is going to be a very short story. So, holding the seance isn't such a very bad idea (waking the spirits of the dead, and possibly unholy things, isn't such a bad idea?) that we devolve into an idiot plot.]</span>

"She wants help, the poor thing," Mary said. "This is an old house. After all these years of opening the window, she's finally gotten to trust me enough to appear and ask for my help."<span style="color:red;">[Hoo boy is Mary wrong. That red-herring window shows up again. The rest of the story depends from this paragraph. It reinforces what's gone before, and sets up the rest. Very simple style, straightforward sentence construction. I want the readers to understand this one.]</span>

"What does Roger say about your plan?"<span style="color:red;">[Social construct: Mary is controlled by Roger.]</span>

"Oh, I haven't told him. You know what a stick-in-the-mud he is."<span style="color:red;">[But not that controlled. A deeply ironic statement, here, given what will be the final image of the climax. (Yes, mud is involved, and long thin things found in mud. Long, thin things that had been put there (stuck there, one could say) by Roger.]</span>

<span style="color:red;">[At this point we go to a linebreak. We never do see this promised seance, though we'll be told about it several times, and we will see a second seance in the same location with the same characters. The story resumes after the linebreak some weeks later and three thousand miles away, with a whole new character being introduced. Mary has a problem, a mild one. She wants to find out about the ghost. Working out that knowledge will take the rest of the story. We'll learn along the way that what she thought was her problem is nothing compared to what her problem really is.]</span>


<hr>
</blockquote>

[Fresie]

Oh wow. Yes -- that's writing

Thank you soooo much, Uncle Jim!

When I was younger, one thing about writing was a total mystery to me: how could one fill pages and pages with details and conversations and know exactly which details and bits of speech to use? Now I see Wow, this is just the best writing lesson I've had in my life, I guess, because it answers this question perfectly.

Heh, one can tell you're a magician, you treat a story as if it's a magic hat!

But it must take really a lot of planning. Do you plan and insert all these "bits of magic" after you've finished the first draft (or zero draft, whatever), or do you take your story theme and symbolism into consideration already when you work on the first draft?

Thanks a lot. I'm off for a think now. :head

[reph]

Unsolicited feedback, just to show how far a reader's understanding can stray from the writer's intent:

I took the bit about the window that won't close as a signal that Mrs. C isn't very rational. She'll believe any New Age nonsense that occurs to her. The house must be haunted? Well, it's a big house, probably an old one. Things in old houses often don't work. If your window won't close, you don't call an exorcist, you call a carpenter. (This lady is wealthy, empty-headed, and bored. She's looking for some excitement.) Then she sees a ghostly figure - right, she's worse off than I thought.

I did understand that Mr. C is a Daddy Warbucks type, not to be trusted. "Playing the market" differs from serious investing.

"The sparkling eyes are for innocence" - I understood them differently. I thought they were for mischief.

While reading, I wondered how old Mary is. (I needed to know, in order to visualize the characters. Gray hair?) I'm guessing 55. Maybe that's too old, as her husband retired young. There isn't much physical description. The description that shows these women as fussy and gossipy brought up vague childhood images of my mother and her middle-aged or elderly friends.

More description or hints about concrete things would make the scene more real for me. When the visitor comes in, does she put her purse down? Where? Do the two women hug or touch hands when they meet? Doesn't Mr. C ever speak? What are people wearing?

I missed all the symbolism about light and dark, the round table, the sweetened tea. "Stick-in-the-mud" is a pretty good symbol for illicit sex, though, not that the idea occurred to me until I saw Uncle Jim's explanation of other symbols.

[maestrowork]

Reph, it is an interesting take on "what the author intends" vs. "what the readers understand."

Uncle Jim's point, as repeated before, is that each word (and every scene) must either: 1) move the plot along; 2) develop characters; 3) add to the themes. If you can do all three at the same time, great!

[James D Macdonald]

I took the bit about the window that won't close as a signal that Mrs. C isn't very rational. She'll believe any New Age nonsense that occurs to her. The house must be haunted? Well, it's a big house, probably an old one. Things in old houses often don't work. If your window won't close, you don't call an exorcist, you call a carpenter. (This lady is wealthy, empty-headed, and bored. She's looking for some excitement.) Then she sees a ghostly figure - right, she's worse off than I thought.

This is exactly right. And the window is just a window that doesn't work properly. Mrs. Collins is, in fact, mentally unbalanced. That's her "recent illness."

"The sparkling eyes are for innocence" - I understood them differently. I thought they were for mischief.

This is also implied. It's a School Girl All American Nancy Drew Girl Chums Together kind of image. She's also doing something naughty -- she's planning to do something behind her husband's back.

Their ages can be whatever works for you. What Mrs. Frederick Baxter (named for the owner of the Baxter Building, where the Fantastic Four have their headquarters) does with her purse, and how she greets her friend (air kiss? handshake?) doen't move the story forward, so I skipped it. Imagine what you like, it won't affect the story I'm telling. She's named Shirley for Shirley MacLaine (believer in the supernatural) and Shirley Jackson (author of some spooky short stories, including one about a haunted house). Roger is Brit slang for sexual intercourse, Collins is a mild alcoholic drink. Mary is a very common female name, it also is the given name of both the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene (the prostitute).

Mr. Collins will speak, later on, when he meets the next character. Right now he's not important; he's being introduced to get him in the story, and moving around. He'll be on the last page; he needs to be on the first one. We meet Frederick Baxter, once, briefly, later on. He has exactly one word of dialog.

Stick-in-the-mud is also a good description of how Roger dies at the climax. There's a reason I used that phrase (which is also a cliche, further revealing character), as the last line of this scene. Last lines occupy positions of power.

[Joanclr]

That was unbelievable! I read the scene first quite casually, with interest, and it grabbed my attention. But I was blown away by the depth of detail that came out when you broke it all down bit by bit. I think for the first time I can truly understand the meaning of "having every sentence do something to advance the plot"!

And of course, after all the hints and teasers, I am very curious to read the rest of the story for myself and see how it ends up. Is it in print already? Or--is there some chance you will give us further scenes of the story broken down in this way?

I for one find this detailed explanation both fascinating and incredibly instructional.

Thanks again, Uncle Jim!!

[qatz]

jim. all that and a bag of chips, too.

a few very minor comments. the "mansion" sentence should indeed be deleted. i thought the age of the characters was rather definite as was; goes along with a certain social style. reference to flanders seemed unnecessary i thought, as we know the source of the fortune already, perhaps made more evident by schindler's list in the meantime. "Great" rather than recent would have helped, though. imho another detail or two could have helped, as reph intimates; but as this was but a beginning, they twern't essential. would be good, of course, to see more.

how interesting that rephah's take, quite different than jim's, would be so clearly parallel at root.

this is such good stuff. it makes mac's project all the more valuable, and now that she'll have to start over, it may even give her the incentive.

[James D Macdonald]

This scene is from a story is called "A Tremble in the Air." It's forthcoming in <A HREF="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/murder_magic.htm" target="_new">Murder by Magic</a> edited by Rosemary Edghill, Warner/Aspect, November 2004.

This story brought in $370. If the anthology earns out there will be royalties, but you can't count on that. After an exclusive period, I'll be free to attempt to re-sell it to other markets that accept reprints.

No agent was involved -- agents don't generally deal with short stories.

I picked this one for a couple of reasons. One, it's a recent story so I do remember what I was thinking at the time, and Two, it's a sole-byline story, so all the word choices were mine, rather than a co-author's.

This is the final draft of multiple drafts, of course. The first draft was sketchier. The material needed to support the climax wasn't there since all the details of the climax hadn't been written. Material was added, dropped, and moved.

In the manuscript, the first page break came after "...during his wife's recent illness." (By that point I need to have the editor so interested that he/she will feel compelled to turn the page.) In the book itself, the first page break will come after "... at her and she felt --" (By that point the reader should be so interested that he/she will feel compelled to turn the page.)

Yes, it's true. You really do have that little time to interest the reader. Anything that doesn't move the story forward holds it back. Writing -- storytelling -- is an act of co-creation with your readers. The readers always put in their own interpretations, add things that have meaning for them, ignore things that they don't care about.

I've left two perfectly good explanations for the events in the story, one occult, one mundane. The reader is invited to play with them.

[reph]

That pesky window = unwanted openness; a secret that refuses to stay hidden; a crack that opens in someone's denial.

The House That Knew Too Much.

Graduate students enjoy this kind of treasure hunt, but it can go too far. Uncle Jim, you said yourself that the window is just a window that doesn't work.

[James D Macdonald]

Specifically, I took the window from The Amityville Horror, where it was supposedly a real example of haunting, and made it mundane.

Meanwhile .....

A good set of <a href="http://www.bywaterbooks.com/mansub.html" target="_new">guidelines</a>. I don't know how good the publisher is -- they don't mention little things like what they pay -- but they've got some great guidelines.

[SarahjaneinNZ]

Thanks. This was a marvellous set of posts.

[pdr]

This is really helpful, Jim. May I have permission to use the posts, with all the proper acknowledgments, on my next short story writing course?

[James D Macdonald]

pdr:

Permission granted. Please provide URLs to my homepage and this discussion.

May I be so bold as to ask where you teach?

[qatz]

With pdr's kind help, I propose to reconstruct the summary of your work that MacAlStone made, then sadly lost. It will, of course, include your most recent work. I thought I'd presume to keep in a few rare gems by others, like pdr's most recent main post. I'll work on this with Mac, then send it to you for your review, edit, and disposition. This would be for the good of the cause. Is that satisfactory as well? Q

[James D Macdonald]

Please obtain permission from the other posters. Everyone owns copyright to their own words.

[qatz]

there will only be a few, i think.

and thanks.

[paritoshuttam]

That was fascinating, Uncle Jim. I had run a cursory eye over the story the first time I read it. But after reading the detailed explanation below, I had to re-read it slowly.

How many drafts does it take you to get to this level of detail and symbolism and cutting out the parts that do not move the story forward?

And do you go in any definite sequence: removing the extraneous parts in the first pass; putting in description or details to add to the characters' depth in the second; and then the symbolism? Or is the major part accomplished in the first draft itself, and there is very little pruning or addition you have to do later? Also, how quickly to you go back to revise?

Sorry, lots of questions! :hail

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[christinedg]

I think compiling this thread is a great idea! I was just thinking about how to do that this weekend, in fact. It seems that with each of my questions, someone has referred me to this thread and I remind myself to devote a day to reading the whole darn thing. I just don't have a day to do it, though!

It's a great idea. Would it be stored here somewhere?

Oops, I got my threads mixed up. I meant to add this to the other thread on compiling this thread . . . clear as mud.

[pdr]

Thank you for that permission. I don't teach writing in as nice a place as you do, Jim. One day though I will when my own Arts Centre is finished. Until then I teach my own courses at Adult Education Centres and Art Centres, Arts Colleges, High School Adult Classes and Polytechnics. Writers' groups often ask me to do an intensive weekend with them. Right now I'm doing bilingual teaching in Japan! Your short story analysis will be perfect for that group.

[James D Macdonald]

"It's the exposition, darling. I has to go somewhere."

<HR>

First, from Shakespeare's Henry V, Act I scene ii:

CANTERBURY

Then hear me, gracious sovereign, and you peers,
That owe yourselves, your lives and services
To this imperial throne. There is no bar
To make against your highness' claim to France
But this, which they produce from Pharamond,
'In terram Salicam mulieres ne succedant:'
'No woman shall succeed in Salique land:'
Which Salique land the French unjustly gloze
To be the realm of France, and Pharamond
The founder of this law and female bar.
Yet their own authors faithfully affirm
That the land Salique is in Germany,
Between the floods of Sala and of Elbe;
Where Charles the Great, having subdued the Saxons,
There left behind and settled certain French;
Who, holding in disdain the German women
For some dishonest manners of their life,
Establish'd then this law; to wit, no female
Should be inheritrix in Salique land:
Which Salique, as I said, 'twixt Elbe and Sala,
Is at this day in Germany call'd Meisen.
Then doth it well appear that Salique law
Was not devised for the realm of France:
Nor did the French possess the Salique land
Until four hundred one and twenty years
After defunction of King Pharamond,
Idly supposed the founder of this law;
Who died within the year of our redemption
Four hundred twenty-six; and Charles the Great
Subdued the Saxons, and did seat the French
Beyond the river Sala, in the year
Eight hundred five. Besides, their writers say,
King Pepin, which deposed Childeric,
Did, as heir general, being descended
Of Blithild, which was daughter to King Clothair,
Make claim and title to the crown of France.
Hugh Capet also, who usurped the crown
Of Charles the duke of Lorraine, sole heir male
Of the true line and stock of Charles the Great,
To find his title with some shows of truth,
'Through, in pure truth, it was corrupt and naught,
Convey'd himself as heir to the Lady Lingare,
Daughter to Charlemain, who was the son
To Lewis the emperor, and Lewis the son
Of Charles the Great. Also King Lewis the Tenth,
Who was sole heir to the usurper Capet,
Could not keep quiet in his conscience,
Wearing the crown of France, till satisfied
That fair Queen Isabel, his grandmother,
Was lineal of the Lady Ermengare,
Daughter to Charles the foresaid duke of Lorraine:
By the which marriage the line of Charles the Great
Was re-united to the crown of France.
So that, as clear as is the summer's sun.
King Pepin's title and Hugh Capet's claim,
King Lewis his satisfaction, all appear
To hold in right and title of the female:
So do the kings of France unto this day;
Howbeit they would hold up this Salique law
To bar your highness claiming from the female,
And rather choose to hide them in a net
Than amply to imbar their crooked titles
Usurp'd from you and your progenitors.

<hr>

Now read the same speech, translated into Damon Runyon-speak by Mike Ford. (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005174.html#47815)

[James D Macdonald]

paritoshuttam:

That was, I think, four drafts.

First, I get the big outline of the story down. I throw in lots of stuff while writing; later I'll remove things that don't turn out to be important.

If I mention some object in the opening, the readers will expect me to use that same object in a meaningful way at the end.

I look at the end to make sure that everything that's been used there has been adequately mentioned earlier.

I make sure the tension/action curve is moving in the right direction.

(Take that seance. I mention that it's going to happen, in the scene you read. Then comes a one-two-three: We hear about it, it's a description in a letter. This is lower-tension. Next we hear, it's being described verbally. Third seance scene: We witness a recreation of that seance, and watch it live, in person, right in the room. That seance forms the center point of the story; it's a breaking point, and from that we go into a brief valley, then swoop up to the top of the climax.)

[Chris Goja]

Hey Jim,

Very interesting to see your comments on what you wrote. It'd be equally interesting to be able to follow the process through the various drafts, to see what you add/subtract, and when. But maybe that's just me...

Now, I'm nearing the end of my little Canossa trip, and I was wondering how you would like to deal with the Assignment (if at all): Before, I thought maybe I'd ask you to edit it - to the benefit of all your ardent followers here - but since you are now providing that particular service to people for money, it may not be something that'd interest you. What do you reckon?

Chris

[James D Macdonald]

Chris, is your story Absolutely Done, Ready To Send Out (all the steps I outlined finished)? Read by your friends, re-read and revised after a week in the desk drawer, all that stuff?

What I do for fun is my own business, y'know. Just because someone's become a major league ball player doesn't mean he can't knock a few balls around with friends at a picnic, right?

[James D Macdonald]

Here's Pericles, Prince Of Tired Plots (http://www.yarnivore.com/francis/archives/000367.html), The Skinhead Hamlet (http://www.sa.rochester.edu/drama/skinhead.html), and Romeo and Juliet Performed by Peeps (http://www.theplainjane.com/peep_plays/rj_scene01.html).

[qatz]

wow. best pericles i ever saw.

[Solitarely]

James I just posted chapter three in feedback forum to show you what I mean by non-traditional. That is chapter three's begginings in my novel. I will include in the final MS the full thread. The man in the noose is essential and I think in all of us, you konw who taht si! Read it and you'll know what the Hell I'm talking about I swear. It's a very fun novel.

So how's your litarary career been, man? I'm very new to this and find it quite a bit confusing. Could I be so kind as to interest you in writting a foreward to my first book ever in exchange for a mesely copy edit? An breezily, easily done copy-edit, I should add. WHAT A BARGAIN FOR YUOS!!!!!!
Heh, just imagine, eh?

I really don't know too much about you though and am interested. Also, in your honost oppinion, would I enjoy one of your books? Thanks EVERYONE!

LOVE mwhaa!

[HapiSofi]

begginings
konw
taht
si
writting
foreward
mesely
An breezily
YUOS!!!!!!
honost
oppinion


Not a copyeditor.

[Solitarely]

I'm bored, and maybe serious. But mostly not.
Actualy, I'm just happy to eat a taco from time to time, ya know?

[James D Macdonald]

I'm not entirely sure you're interested in writing commercial fiction, Solitarely, so I'm not sure what help I can give you.

[Chris Goja]

Well, give me the rest of the week to let it ripen a little bit more in my desk drawer (and get the last comments from tardy beta readers), and then I'll go deep and wait for your homeruns.

(As is probably apparent, I don't know all that much about baseball...)<img border=0 src="http://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emotehuh.gif" />

[spooknov]

Of the three pericles, the peeps was the best. I could not stomach the other two. But I did manage to get through UJ's all the way to the end!:clap

I'd forgotten how treacherous ye olde english could be without a minimum of two cups of coffee. I had to stop and get a refill before continuing the thread. Has it really been that long since HS lit. and drama?

[maestrowork]

Y'all know there's a "spell check" button when you post a message, right?

Also there are great spell check utilities for your browsers you can freely download from the internet (I use "iespell").

[James D Macdonald]

Once, many years ago (for reasons that seemed good to me at the time), I drove from Norfolk, Virginia, to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, without benefit of a map or pre-planning. I mean, Pittsburg is northwest of Norfolk. Head northwest and look for the signs. What's the problem?

Around about three o'clock in the morning, in (I think) West Virginia, at an all-night diner by the side of a secondary road, I asked the nice young waitress "How do you get to Pittsburgh from here?"

She thought a moment and said, "I'd take a plane."

[wwwatcher]

"I'm not entirely sure you're interested in writing commercial fiction, Solitarely, so I'm not sure what help I can give you."

Get him to read Pericles (tell him it has pimps and madames in it) Maybe he won't be so bored then.

8o :nerd 8o

[sugarmuffin]

Hi Uncle J.,

We talked about outlining a while back on this thread, and I am finding it useful in a number of ways. One is that I don't have all my thoughts in a jumble of notes on scraps of paper and envelopes (didn't mean the touch of i.p. or rhyme, but kinda like it).

But probably the biggest help an outline is for me is that it helps me psychologically, on those days when I feel that getting from the beginning to the end is an insurmountable challenge. While things get added to -- or subtracted from -- the story, in general I can see where I'm at, where I've been, and where I'm going with my work.

Did you ever get to Pittsburgh?

Lisa

[maestrowork]

I lived in Pittsburgh. :grin

I find it interesting to note that how you drive reveals quite a lot on how you write (and to a greater extent, how you cope with life in general). I am by no means a scatterbrain, but I drive the way I live life. I don't need to have control over every detail all the time. If I am to drive from Pittsburgh to Cincinnati, of example, I will note all the major highways (79, 70, 71) and check points (Wheeling, Columbus), then I just drive. Once in a while I will go on a detour, check things out, have a side trip or something. When I do get lost, I find my way back to the highway and off I go again. No sweat.

However, if I have a deadline (be in Cincy by 5 p.m. today) it's a different matter. I guess that's why "professional" writers with deadlines favor a more rigid and detailed outline, because they need to deliver in a specific time frame. Writers like me, who can afford to spend 10 years writing a novel, tend to take the "let's wander around and see what we find" approach.

There're good and bad about both approaches. A tightly plotted book can feel, well, tightly plotted. Rigid. A loosely plotted book can feel more fluid, deeper -- but perhaps harder to follow.

[evanaharris]

Yes. I, too, am digging the road-as-novel analogy. It's really how I work. "Okay. I have a secret agent gerbil and he needs defeat a crazed penguin." Go.

[jeffspock]

Last night I finished reading "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie Willis.

Talk about puzzles, Chekhovian pistols, story arcs, and plot threads. If she uses a knot to plot, it's the Gordian one. :eek

I have to say that I stand open-mouthed and drooling like an idiot by her ability to open, close, re-open, and re-interpret events and images that occur throughout the book. It's a real lesson in fiction development.

Not only that but it's a fun read, though it helps to have read some Jerome K. Jerome beforehand...

A question for Uncle Jim is: Does Connie have a particular reputation for this? I have to say that it really was a standout performance for me.

[LiamJackson]

Poisoned fish. Goodbye Evil Penguin Dude...unless of course Evil Penguin Dude suspects Agent 00 1/2 (Gerbil...James Gerbil) and uses Dimwitted Walrus Dude as a food taster. In which case, James Gerbil could use a faux pas umbrella/air gun, and inject a ricin pellet into evil penguin's butt from forty paces....unless...

Damn. See what you've started Evan? Now, I'll be scheming on methods of deposing Evil Penguin Dude for the rest of the day.

[reph]

Evil penguin. Ho-hum, another good-guy versus bad-guy story, where everything is black and white?

[qatz]

speaking on behalf of all evil penguins everywhere, i would like to know how the guys in "white hats" get away with feeding us poisoned fish. if that's not moral ambiguity, i don't know what is.

quack.

oh, by the way, i thought of an interesting outlines story that i think you'll appreciate, jim, while i was out "hunting rabbits" with my dog. not to rub it in or anything, ray, but wait a week or so on that.

[Fresie]

All right, so I meant to ask this question for quite some time and now I can't hold it any longer. :huh Uncle Jim, in the thread about PA you say:

If you have written a book that a lot of people want to read, a legitimate press will buy it.

If you have written a book that no one wants to read, putting it out through a vanity press won't magically make readers appear.

Uncle Jim, I would think you really must know a lot about this problem, considering the amount of first-timers' works that went through your hands. So I've got a related question (or rather, two questions -- and they won't let me sleep just lately):

1. So what is it -- a book that people will want to read? Identification with the characters, yes, I understand that. Appealing to basic universal emotions, I understand this one too. Entertaining, yes. But isn't there something else as well, some element most beginning writers don't take into consideration?

2. From your experience, what are the most common mistakes the beginners make? What makes their books rejectable? Most everyone these days can write in smooth, complex sentences, so it can hardly be a question of style (although "smooth, complex sentences" aren't my idea of style). What is it, then? What makes so many first-time writers fail?

Thank you very much!

[James D Macdonald]

You might think that most writers can handle the noun-verb part of writing and reliably produce grammatically solid prose. You'd be wrong. I see tons of stuff that is only written in English by the most generous standards.

You know how I keep saying that if you can produce two consecutive pages of grammatically-correct English with standard spelling that you're already in the top ten percent of the slush pile? Believe it.

The second thing is this: Newer writers have a hard time figuring out what is part of the story and what isn't. They haven't yet figured out how to cut away the non-essential. My harping on how anything that doesn't add to the story detracts from it is also quite true.

The last thing is this: The writer needs to get past the trite stories. The inconsequential stories. The ones where the reader says "Oh, yes -- been there, done that." The ones where the reader says, "So what?"

I've recommended Brust's The Sun, the Moon, and the Stars. That novel speaks directly to the sudden "ah-ha!" moment when you're no longer just putting down words but are suddenly writing.

The way to reach that "ah-ha!" moment is practice. Become fluid, become proficient. Work on more than one level at once.

[maestrowork]

The last thing is this: The writer needs to get past the trite stories. The inconsequential stories. The ones where the reader says "Oh, yes -- been there, done that." The ones where the reader says, "So what?"

But isn't that the hardest part for a new writer? To know what is "original"? It's very subjective. What makes an "alien invasion" or "murder mystery" story fresh and exciting or "seen that show before" dull?

[James D Macdonald]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>But isn't that the hardest part for a new writer? To know what is "original"? It's very subjective. What makes an "alien invasion" or "murder mystery" story fresh and exciting or "seen that show before" dull?<hr></blockquote>

Yep, it's the hard part. But ... if you can do the Grammatical thing, and you can do the No Waste thing, you're in publishable terrritory already. If you can get the Original thing as well, now you're in Consistently Publishable land.

[evanaharris]

Evil penguin. Ho-hum, another good-guy versus bad-guy story, where everything is black and white?

Oh, no, Reph. You'd be surprised about the staggering amount of moral ambiguity that comes up when you discuss evil penguins.

[evanaharris]

Yep, it's the hard part. But ... if you can do the Grammatical thing, and you can do the No Waste thing, you're in publishable terrritory already. If you can get the Original thing as well, now you're in Consistently Publishable land.

Jim. Would you or would you not agree that evil penguins and secret agent gerbils are Original things? Could I be headed top Consistently Publishable land?

[maestrowork]

Evil Penguins -- Batman Returns
Secret Agent Gerbils -- James Bond series

Now put them together, you may have something going there.

[James D Macdonald]

You're mistaking surface appearance for originality.

Imagine chess sets. You know, you have your Staunton pattern chess sets. You have your Elves and Orcs chess sets. You have your Star Trek Enterprise and Klingons chess sets.

Those aren't the game.

The originality comes in the moves that those pieces make, not in what they're painted to resemble.

[pdr]

Ah, bless you for that, James. Just what I need (with your permission please?) whenever the question is asked by a group of writers. The more quotes I have from other writers on a topic the more the students take it on board.

[Fresie]

Newer writers have a hard time figuring out what is part of the story and what isn't. They haven't yet figured out how to cut away the non-essential. My harping on how anything that doesn't add to the story detracts from it is also quite true.

Yess! that's exactly what I sensed I needed to know, thanks a lot, Uncle Jim!! The No Waste thing. It really, really clicked. I did notice though that the more I write (even if total crap), the better I can see which bits belong to the story and which don't.

The chess example makes the originality thing so clear. It doesn't matter what kind of beasts your pieces are, what matters is the internal game they play with each other... oops... is it grammatically correct to say "each other", it isn't, is it? there're many of them, not just two... I don't know any more!!!:cry :rollin

[Jules Hall]

"With each other" sounds fine to me. It might not be accurate to the level a mathematician would demand of such a statement, but it'll do for the rest of us :)

[Cyyschn]

I'm rather sure I know the answer to my own question, but does the 'no waste' need to be conscious to the reader? Obviously, the reader is not conscious of every intention of the author, though it seems to me like a lot of novels have quite a bit of 'waste', such as scenery and mannerims and history, etc. Is this just part of a engrossing/familiarity-building factor (is that a legitimate reason to have certain material, in your eyes, Jim?) that the author uses to make the story more real, or are these novels anomalies? It seems to me like the 'no waste' novels are more of an anomaly than those that waste in Consistently Published Land.

Thanks,
Cyyschn

[ChunkyC]

One of the many things I've learned from being here is that you should try to make everything count. For example, you need to have details that will give the reader a sense of place, but they don't have to do just that. I think the key is to always try to look at the surroundings in your story through the eye of the POV character.

Lets say you have a scene where the sky is overcast. You could say it like that, but it's flat, emotionless. However, if your POV is mean or in a bad mood, you could describe the sky as gloomy and depressing. Conversely, if your POV has an upbeat outlook, the cloudy sky could be just one of the many faces the sky presents to us.

[maestrowork]

You will learn, as you mature as a novelist, what is "waste" and what is really supporting material. Everything, down to settings or poetic proses, etc. must serve a purpose: advance the plot; develop characters; and add to the themes.

If you find yourself going in circles describing something that is just repetition, then cut it. Settings may very well be the usual suspects. When you find yourself writing pages after pages of settings, thinking that they enhance the mood and feel of the story, you should step back and see if they really do. I have cut out or pared down many passages during the rewrite/edit stage because I realized they were "waste" -- author's indulgence.

One thing to do is to just "cut" it -- using your word processor -- then read it again and see if you actually miss anything (apart from the feeling like you just cut off your limp). If nothing is lost as far as story/character/theme is concerned, then delete it. Otherwise, paste it back and perhaps try to pare it down. Cut out words. Again, see if after the cuts it still works.

Trim the fat without sacrificing the taste.

[Fresie]

Great stuff, maestro, thanks.

Trim the fat without sacrificing the taste.

:clap

[Chris Goja]

Surely there are some stories that, like, say, a good Spanish sausage, cannot be enjoyed without the fat?! If you were to trim it away, it would just be a collection of rather unsavoury-looking lumps of meat and a washed pig intestine...

[maestrowork]

...without sacrificing the taste

That's the punch line, not "trimming the fat."

[Chris Goja]

Ok, Jim,

I have payed my dues; the story has come into being, undergone various plastic surgery operations in which I have been following/ignoring the advice of several kind Betas (you know who you are!). After this, I placed the installments in my cellar together with the wine and cheese to - hopefully - mature from undigestible to spicy and delicious, but now I'm at a loss. The question is, would you like to try some? It will marry beautifully with your Saturday evening claret.... :b

[Fresie]

If you were to trim it away, it would just be a collection of rather unsavoury-looking lumps of meat and a washed pig intestine...

So that's what you think about Hemingway, then? That's one cholesterol-free writer :coffee

I find nineteen-century writing very fattening... just like their food. Little wonder many great writers of that time wrote cookbooks as well.

[James D Macdonald]

Chris -- you've gotten it to a stage where you would, possibly, send it to an editor?

You re-read it after it sat in your cellar, and you think it's Pretty Good?

Okay, tell you what: mail it to me. .RTF attachment.

Yog@sff.net

No need to publish it to the net.

-- JDM

[Chris Goja]

Hey Jim,

Just had to flaunt my complete ignorance of all things computer-related, did you? *grin*

What program would you want me to use (i.e. what is an rtf)? I take it a normal word file attachment is out of the wuestion?

As far as Pretty Good is concerned, I think I've done what I could given the circumstances. If it's good enough to publish, with or without editing, would be hybris for me to have an opinion on. I would value your opinion, though!

Cheers,

Chrisx

[PianoTuna]

Hemingway. Write a normal story. Take off everything but the engine, tires, steering wheel, brakes. What you have to explain, don't show with a lot of little details, instead say in one sentence. Translate it into Spanish. Have someone else back into English.

[maestrowork]

I love Hemingway, but he was a genius. Some people would argue that modern literature needs stimilus -- the more the better. All the writing books suggest "details" -- use all five senses, show don't tell, use complex sentences, etc. etc. Just like movies, I suppose. A movie like "Citizen Cane" may never be made now.

[James D Macdonald]

Chris:

.RTF is a file protocol. It stands for Rich Text Format. Your wordprocessor should have it as an option under "Save As."

The nice thing about .RTF is that any wordprocessor can open a RTF saved by any other wordprocessor and maintain formatting, and RTF won't carry macro viruses.

<hR>

Some great advice <a href="http://www.highclearing.com/archivesuo/week_2004_05_09.html#005326" target="_new">here</a>. Although it's specifically about poetry, it's applicable to writing in general:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>What would I recommend as far as "trying your hand?" Start by slavishly imitating poets you admire. This is the opposite of the standard advice that you need to concentrate on "finding your own voice." ... Your own voice will take care of itself as your craft matures. Your own voice will, if you're going to have one, insist on emerging. In the meantime, learn the craft. <hr></blockquote>

[MacAl Stone]

Jim said, back on page 66 of this thread, "What I do for fun is my own business, y'know. Just because someone's become a major league ball player doesn't mean he can't knock a few balls around with friends at a picnic, right?"

Jim, I know that you have collected a number of thank-you's from the regular readers and posters on this thread. However, "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim" has reached a size and significance that I, personally, think those rather off-handed "thank you" statements--my own included--are completely inadequate in comparison to the untold hours you put into posting here, elsewhere in the novels thread, background check, and elsewhere on the net.

Thank you. You donate a huge amount of time, thought, and dedication to the cause of struggling new writers. You demonstrate a generosity with your time and experience that overwhelms me. You certainly could choose to spend this time you spend helping us, somewhere more likely to be of personal benefit to you and yours. I like to think I'm speaking for pretty much all of us--but whether or not that's true, I am definitely speaking for myself.

And if this post is too profoundly embarrassing, let me know, and I'll modify or remove it.

[ChunkyC]

Amen, Mac. Every teacher deserves an apple from his students every now and then. Consider mine placed on your desk, Uncle Jim.

[MacAl Stone]

An apple, Chunky? Hell, he deserves a cherry-restored e-series Jag convertible...hard to fit that on his desk, though.

[ChunkyC]

If all of us at AW chipped in twenty bucks each, we could probably pull it off...then again, Jim, you'd end up spending the rest of your life giving us each a ride.

[HollyB]

I agree with you, Mac. I've been lurking and learning an amazing amount from reading this thread... Just from this one thread, I've made a resolution to BIC, dump my prologue, and trim the fat. In fact, I'm going to completely rewrite my manuscript -- retyping from hard copy!

Thank you Jim, and also all the other authors posting on the thread. I'll keep following along (even if I'm quiet)!

[Fresie]

If all of us at AW chipped in twenty bucks each, we could probably pull it off...

Or, as I've already calculated, if I put aside twenty bucks for every chapter I finish, I'll have enough by the end of this novel to submit it to Uncle Jim for a look-over! :money :money :money

[James D Macdonald]

Blush.

Hey, look, an apple!

[PianoTuna]

Apples are good.

Can I ask you about punctuation?

[LiamJackson]

<<An apple, Chunky? Hell, he deserves a cherry-restored e-series Jag convertible...hard to fit that on his desk, though.>>

Heh, and to think I sent him a crummy patch.

[James D Macdonald]

Punctuation, yes. What do you want to know?

(Punctuation tells us when to breathe.)

[macalicious731]

Alas! Punctuation. I am too fond of commas. :o


<3

[James D Macdonald]

Okay, here's a rule for you:

You are allowed one exclamation point per novel. Use it wisely.

[Jules Hall]

<trys again after internet exploder ate the last post>

A quick "find" shows me I have 11 of them after 100,000 words, all of which are within dialogue. I take it this isn't good.

I'm just wondering how to fix it now. Do I rewrite the dialogue with a tag explaining how it should be delivered? I prefer to avoid tags wherever possible, and most of these lines are currently untagged. Are there any other techniques that would help?

[James D Macdonald]

No, Jules. I'm exagerating. A little.

You'll need to hold a gun to each exclamation point's head and make it justify its existence.

[maestrowork]

This is absurd!! I don't buy it!!!!!!! Bull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:grin

[macalicious731]

Do I have to use the exclamation point? Rather than holding a gun to its head, you might have to point it at me.

[maestrowork]

L'il Mac. It's kind of weird to have this dialogue:

"Stop," the cop shouted.

.. instead of...

"Stop!" the cop shouted.

[macalicious731]

Maestro,

"Stop!" is not a dialogue I have written, nor do I have any characters who are cops. :grin

No, but really, I hate exlamation points. I avoid them at all costs. I can't remember the last time I used one, although I would make the exception if it was a case similiar to what you mentioned. Fluidity is key, of course.

<3

[maestrowork]

Lil Mac, do not avoid anything like a plague. To do so only hinders you as a writer. If you find yourself wanting to write "Stop!" then write it. You can always change your mind later and find better dialogues, but there are times when your characters need to exclaim. Are you going to stop them from doing so because you hate using exclamation point? The punctuation exists for a reason. Use it and use it well... the latter being the key.

[wwwatcher]

I "ditto" to Mac Al Stone's comment.

Watcher

[jeffspock]

Ohhhh, now I get it.

Exclamation points are like adverbs, right? Considered to be in bad taste, if not illegal, unless bodices are actually in the process of being ripped.

[KyleDHebert]

I've read very page, I promise, so please forgive me if this has already been answered.

I am currently revising my first MS. When I started putting it all down on the page I wrote and wrote and wrote until I was done. I will admit that I was shooting for 100K words the entire time and got fairly close.

What I've found during the revision process is that a lot of the original words were unnecessary, and some of the "scenes" as I like to think of them didn't fit as well as I thought. Now I'm down to about half my original draft, let's say 50K words.

My question is do novels have to be a certain length, and if so what is that length? How do I know when I'm beyond the realm of a short story?

[maestrowork]

50K is novel length, albeit a short one.

[James D Macdonald]

A story is as long as it is. Make sure all your words are the right ones. When you have only the right words, and all the right words, then look for a market that accepts material like yours. All markets are looking for the right words; none are looking for the wrong words.

50K words is a novel. To be commercial -- is there a subplot that perhaps needs a bit of firming up to properly counterpoint the main plot? See if there's 10K of character development or theme that got slighted in the pruning, or was never written in the first place.

If not--50K it is, and start sending it out (usual cautions about beta readers, reading it aloud, and so on).

Meanwhile, you aren't excused from your requirement to spend two hours today writing original prose.

[PianoTuna]

Sorry about the delay. Something came up over the weekend that needed a truck.

"Punctuation tells us when to breathe." is what I need. I have trouble with the rules. A comma is a pause, but not every pause gets a comma, and some commas come where there isn't a pause, like "Hartford, Connecticut". Good so far. It's the commas for grammar and logic where I get into trouble. I can't tell how far to believe the books. That's not my usual. I like to read up on things. Best thing I ever learned is if you want to find out about something, there's probably somebody out there who wants to tell you all about it. Usually they wrote the owner's manual. It makes me nervous to be disagreeing with reference books when I'm just starting out.

For instance, "His wife Sharmayne up and left him, taking his truck and heading for New Jersey." The books and I agree that there has to be a comma after "left him", because otherwise you'll think she left him while he was taking his truck, and you won't be sure who's heading for New Jersey. Some people have told me that there should be a comma following "truck", which is wrong because "taking his truck and heading for new Jersey" is one action not two. But what gets me is saying that there should be a comma on either side of "Sharmayne" because an appositive. That's just plain wrong. If you said "His wife, the Mayor of Casterbridge, up and left him, taking his truck and heading for New Jersey," fine. That needs commas. But what about "A week after Frank lost his lucky penny, his dog died, his truck spontaneously combusted, and his wife the former Miss America runner-up left him for a local TV news personality"? Commas after "wife" and "runner-up" ruin the whole thing.

Here's another one. "He hit a good line drive but then he ran towards third base, so we could see he had a ways to go before he made it into the Major Leagues." How important is it to have a comma following "drive" because you have two independent clauses separated by a conjunction? Is it a clear mistake not to have one? Or is it that most independent clauses separated by a conjunction naturally have more of a pause than that?

How about "Sharmayne of course had no idea how to open the tool chest, so she just parked the truck in her cousin's back yard until the smell faded." Is it a mistake not to have commas on either side of "of course"? The books say "of course" is an interruption in the main thought, but it seems to me that sometimes it isn't. They also say that "for the life of me" is an interruption in the main thought, and logically maybe it is, but in real life no one ever pauses before and after they say it: "I cannot for the life of me see what Sharmayne thought she was doing with that swimming pool repairman." I wrote something out that had those commas in it and tried it on some readers. They were all confused and said I'd done the commas wrong.

I thought about sending a letter to the author of that punctuation book asking how many books he buys per year. If it isn't too many, I'm willing to risk losing him.

Semicolons are a longer pause. I think it's the kind where the voice in the part just before the pause ends by dipping down very briefly, then curling back up again and stopping short. Before colons, the voice makes one sharp drop at the end, and the pause is longer. This is probably an inadequate rule, but so far it's working.

[James D Macdonald]

Um, what was the question?

Generally speaking, once you have a minimal competency in punctuation, it doesn't really matter.

Avoid total howlers. That's all you need do.

If you can tell a story, the pubisher will hire a copyeditor to fix your punctuation. You'll read over what the copyeditor did, pull out your "STET dammit" rubber stamp, and remove those "corrections" you don't agree with.

It's a non-problem.

[James D Macdonald]

Let me expand a bit.

Remember, while you're writing every day, you're reading every day, too. Professionally, traditionally, published works.

The best you can get your hands on. (Life is short -- too short to read another Xanth novel.)

You'll be seeing sentence structure, word choice, punctuation, storytelling, in action on a daily basis. You'll learn how it all fits together -- more so since now that you're writing you'll be more attuned to notice all the technical bits and pieces that make up the written language.

Do your reading, do your writing, and let nature take its course.

[Chris Goja]

Jim,

if a person is not (yet) a pro writer, I don't really see how you can fit in two hours of BIC, plus revising and reading, plus the time it takes to send out manuscripts to agents and publishers, plus (hopefully) dealing with other small, writing-related matters such as cashing in all those royalty checks, et cetera, et cetera, EVERY day.

Any advise on this? I am lucky in that I have a good job with decent working hours, but even I struggle and fail to meet these requirements, so unless you happen to be a millionaire with all the time in the world, I would have thought that the equation would be impossible unless oyu take the plunge and actually quit your dayjob?

Chris

[James D Macdonald]

Modify it according to what's possible, for your situation, Chris.

You know yourself and your situation, best. For me, self-discipline is important.

I've already mentioned setting the alarm clock two hours early to make writing time. There's the lunch hour for reading a paperback. An hour of revision in the evening instead of TV. Saturday afternoon down at the seashore reading a chapter aloud to the gulls and waves. Make something you can live with.

Please, don't let anyone tell you that this isn't hard work. I'm sure you've heard that before, I tell you again that it's true.

[reph]

Piano Tuna, that's a lot of detail. I'll address a little of it. If you wanted answers only from Uncle Jim, then skip this post.

"His wife the former beauty queen ran off" is a lot like "My son the doctor says to take two aspirin." The whole thing is a unit. In the context you provided, the woman's status as runner-up to Miss Whatever is essential to the meaning, for reasons of humor or irony. That makes the phrase restrictive in spirit, if not restrictive by a strict interpretation of grammar books. So you can leave out the commas.

I still want commas in "His wife, Charmayne, left him."

My internal sense of changes in pitch with semicolons differs from yours. I hear a drop just before a semicolon, as the clause preceding the mark ends. (A period causes a stronger drop.) A semicolon replaces "and." I hear a rise before a colon, or maybe I want to inhale there. A colon replaces "namely" or "that is" or "What did I just tell you? Here's the proof."

[Fresie]

Another good thing is, after some time writing becomes an addiction. And then it'll force you to find time.

Like a closet alcoholic who will always find a way to spend a few hours getting drunk in total secret, a writer may start to invent clever excuses to be left alone and just write... How do addicts find time and money for their addictions? Writing is probably the best (and least costly) of them.:ha

[maestrowork]

I still want commas in "His wife, Charmayne, left him."

Me too. However, in the following case, I won't:

"Despite his brother Hector's objection, Paris took Helen to Troy."

(Of course I can write it other ways, but I'm here to illustrate a point).

[PianoTuna]

Jim, the question I forgot to put in was "Where am I going wrong here?"

So that's it? That's all? Just play the music by ear? Dang. Now I'll have to stop being sloppy and pay attention. Between you and my new screen, I may get civilized yet.

[James D Macdonald]

Well, here's what you can do. Drop by a bookstore and pick up one of the high school Grammar Review workbooks with lots of sample problems in them. The SAT Prep books might do you. Find one that you like, read it, take the sample tests, review what you got wrong.

That's really all you'll need.

[Jules Hall]

The way I see the difference between these two sentences is this: Paris might well have more than one brother, so "His brother Hector" is specifying which brother.

The anonymous character in "His wife, Charmayne, ..." is highly likely to only have one wife, so we're providing additional information about her.

I think the "beauty queen" sentence is hard to understand without commas, personally.

[Sonic]

MacAl Stone wroteThank you. You donate a huge amount of time, thought, and dedication to the cause of struggling new writers. You demonstrate a generosity with your time and experience that overwhelms me. You certainly could choose to spend this time you spend helping us, somewhere more likely to be of personal benefit to you and yours. I like to think I'm speaking for pretty much all of us--but whether or not that's true, I am definitely speaking for myself.

I agree wholeheartedly. Fortunately there's at lest some personal benefit for you, Uncle Jim. I don't read much SF, and most of your books aren't available in Swedish bookstores, but this thread made me buy a copy of The Apocalypse Door. That was my way of leaving an apple for you, I guess. It was a win-win deal since I got some good entertainment (I kept flippin' those pages :-) out of it. Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[James D Macdonald]

Thanks, Sonic.

The next book'll be even better.

[Euan Harvey]

Hi all,

I've been working my way through the enormous mass of information on this thread, and I just wanted to say thanks to Jim MacDonald for all his help. Some of the comments were *really* useful, especially the ones about the relative importance of character, plot, and prose.

Ok, I have a question for Jim MacDonald; if you can help, I'd be very grateful :grin

I have finished a novel, and taken it to the stage of a second draft. My beta readers have said they felt as if they didn't know the characters by the time they finished the book. One of the main characters gets killed about halfway through, and a couple of the beta readers said they didn't feel anything when it happened.

So how can I create more empathy between my readers and my characters?

:shrug

All suggestions gratefully received.

Cheers,

Euan

[James D Macdonald]

Euan, without reading your work I don't have a clue.

Here's something that you can try, yourself, though.

Do you have a favorite novel, where you have great sympathy with the characters?

Read it with an eye toward how that author did the trick.

Hmmmmmm.....

Do your characters have lives? Perhaps you won't put those lives in your book, but do you know them?

The fellow who got killed. Who was his first girlfriend? Why did they break up? Where was his favorite vacation place? Did he have a pet when he was young?

Tell me more about your book, okay?

<hr>

Oh, yeah, one more thing: When readers tell you that there's a problem, they're almost always right. When they tell you how to fix the problem, they're almost always wrong.

[Yeshanu]

Uncle Jim,

About 13 days and 7 pages ago, you said that someday soon you should talk about the use of file cards.

To paraphrase my kids on long car journeys, "Are we there yet?"

Ruth

[maestrowork]

If your betas think that way, you need to examine your characterization. Are you sacrificing characters in favor of plot? Are your characters caricatures or cliche or flat... just to propel the plot, but not themselves fully developed, 3-dimensional "real" people? Do they act, feel and sound like real people? Like Uncle Jim said, do they have lives outside of the main story/plot? If they're out drinking, do they each have a favorite beer, and why? Do they have hidden emotional scars that you can reveal to your readers? Do things happen to them before you even know them or have an emotional attachment to them?

"The building fell, and Jack died" is the kind of "who cares?" scenarios. But if you can build Jack up as a full, flesh and bone characters that a reader can relate to (through his relationships with the people he loves/hates; through his own idiosyncracies, etc.), then when Jack dies, the readers would feel something.

[James D Macdonald]

Now: On using filecards.

Take a stack of filecards. Number them (I use upper left-hand corner) 1, 2, 3, ... and so on. These are chapters. They're major divisions. They're scenes. They're whatever you want them to be. You may have only two at first, 1 and 2, the opening scene and the climatic scene, only a sentence on each. It's okay, doesn't matter. You can ignore dialog at this point. You can ignore setting.

Now, between these cards, put other cards, numbered 1.1, 1.2, and so on. You put intervening scenes on these. Things that must happen after one event but before another.

Between 1.2 and 1.3, if you think of something that has to go there, put 1.2.1, 1.2.2 .... To any level you want. You will have the whole of your novel there, though you may not know all the details until the second or third drafts.

You are answering questions here: What happens next, and what does the reader need to know so he won't be confused?

One of the smartest editors I know says "Never tell the reader anything before he cares!"

Too much outlining can take the fun out of the writing. Too much outlining can substitute for writing. Only writing is writing. Thinking about writing isn't writing, talking about writing isn't writing, planning to write isn't writing. Outlining isn't writing.

After you're happy with the overall shape of your plot, that you've got the characters entering, doing things, and leaving, now's the time to type up a strong outline.

A strong outline may be dozens (if not scores) of pages long, and can resemble you telling a friend about a book that you read or a movie that you saw. You'll include the major scenes, and sparkling bits of description, you'll start to fill in dialog.

From this strong outline, write your novel. Some people, having written an outline, put it aside and write their books from memory. I can't say that's a bad thing.

After you're done writing of your novel comes revision. This is the smoothing, the sanding, the staining, the waxing, and the polishing of this thing you've created.

Here you do the Agricultural Work. If you have something in your climax, you need to make sure it was properly planted in the beginning. You add foreshadowing to the start and middle of your book.

You read your opening. If you have something planted in the begining that didn't sprout by the end, you need to root it out.

[SarahjaneinNZ]

Uncle Jim, this post on how to go about constructing a novel from raw materials is brilliant. I can't wait to get home to try it out. <img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_bigsmile.gif" />

[Euan Harvey]

Maestrowork and James MacDonald: thanks for the replies. Much appreciated. :thumbs

>Do you have a favorite novel, where you have great sympathy with the characters?
>Read it with an eye toward how that author did the trick.

I remember really rooting for Pug in the first Raymond E Feist book I read (Magician?), so I'll go back to that one. As you suggested upthread, I typed out a first chapter from another one of his books (among others), so maybe I'll have to go through and highlight everything he does in the first few chapters, then retype those. OK, thanks for the suggestion.

>Do your characters have lives? Perhaps you won't put those lives in your book, but do you know them?

Um, I know all the details of my main protagonist's life, but. . .

> Are your characters caricatures or cliche or flat... just to propel the plot, but not themselves fully developed, 3-dimensional "real" people? Do they act, feel and sound like real people? Like Uncle Jim said, do they have lives outside of the main story/plot? If they're out drinking, do they each have a favorite beer, and why? Do they have hidden emotional scars that you can reveal to your readers? Do things happen to them before you even know them or have an emotional attachment to them?

. . . I'm not sure if I've done this. Or at least, I know I haven't done it for a couple of them, but I did do a lot of this for my protagonist. But maybe not enough. Hum.

OK, thinking about it, I only really sketched out who they were in relation to the plot (the plot came and seized me by the throat and shook me, yelling 'find some damn characters and make it quick!').

:smack

>But if you can build Jack up as a full, flesh and bone characters that a reader can relate to (through his relationships with the people he loves/hates; through his own idiosyncracies, etc.), then when Jack dies, the readers would feel something.

OK, I think I understand. If I can establish my characters as people: so I know the things they do when they speak, what they do when they are feeling nervous, what they feel about their mothers, how they feel about power, what their prime drives are and so on, then the readers will empathize with him/her.

So empathy for a character is a result of seeing that character as an individual, and being shown the motivations for their actions?

>Tell me more about your book, okay?

It's set in an analog to medieval South-East Asia. The main character was sold into a boxing stable (kinda like a group of gladiators/mercenaries) working on a cooperative basis by his parents when the rice harvest failed and they couldn't afford to raise him (he was 3 when this happened). His best friend in the stable is another young man about the same age, but this guy was sold at a much later age (12). The boxers are kept in isolation, and most of their life is spent either training or fighting. So the main character is fairly dangerous in terms of physical ability, but very naïve and ignorant about how the world works outside the stable.

The stable has a feud with another boxing stable on the other side of the city. One of the boxers from the other school sneaks in and defiles the shrine of the main character's school. The main character finds out who was responsible, challenges them, and kills them in the arena in the centre of the city. A nobleman is watching the fight, and he decides to use the protag in his scheme to take over the city. Basically, he hires the protag and his friend from the stable (buys their freedom), and puts them in his guard. Then, after some time has passed, and he is assured of the protag's blind loyalty and naiveté, he engineers and incident in which the protag gets blamed for an assassination attempt. In the incident his friend is killed. The protag is sent to the central jail, from which the nobleman springs him. The nobleman tells the protag (through a letter given to the person who springs protag) that he can't help him directly, because other nobles would use it as ammunition against him. He then points the protag at another nobleman, an enemy, and watches as the protag goes off to kill this guy.

He has basically used the protag as a deniable weapon against one of his enemies. He can deny that he had anything to do with the assassination attempt that the protag is going to do (reason he needs deniability is given earlier in the book). He understands what makes the protagonist tick (an unrealistic code of honor, loyalty, and the use of violence as the solution of first resort).

The protagonist duly kills the target. He thinks he has done his duty, but then a demon appears and starts chasing him. He runs from it, just escaping, and sees it disappear in the sunlight. The next night it appears again, and he has to take refuge in a temple. Finally he finds out that the demon is not tracking him per se, it's bound to an object that he is carrying. Usually this is a scrap of parchment with the spell written on it, and the demon then kills the one carrying the parchment. In this case, it turns out that the spell has been tattooed on him by the nobleman (the reasons for this are explained).

The protag then has to flay a portion of skin from his belly, sneak into the noble man's house, and get the skin into the his food. The protagonist is caught just as he is attempting to leave. He is hauled in front of the nobleman, the nobleman eventually eats the skin, the sun sets, demons appear, rip the bad guy into small strips and our hero just escapes.

That's pretty much it, although I realize I haven't mentioned one of the main characters at all. Oh, well.



The comments I've had with it about non-prose problems fall into two categories:



1 - the problem a couple of people had is that the story didn't really begin for them until halfway through. I guess this is because the nobleman is plotting and trying to maneouvre the protagonist to where he wants him. I tried to hint what he was doing but not make it too blatant. But another reader said he spotted what was going on, so I don't know who to believe there. I guess I could switch the order of the book around, but I do think the plotting needs to be shown. Maybe I'm wrong.

2- the problem with characterization I mentioned in my first post. A couple of people have said they didn't really feel like they knew who the characters were, and they didn't really care about them.

[maestrowork]

Just a couple of thoughts, based on my own experience. I'm sure Uncle Jim and others have better suggestions.


1 - the problem a couple of people had is that the story didn't really begin for them until halfway through. I guess this is because the nobleman is plotting and trying to maneouvre the protagonist to where he wants him. I tried to hint what he was doing but not make it too blatant. But another reader said he spotted what was going on, so I don't know who to believe there. I guess I could switch the order of the book around, but I do think the plotting needs to be shown. Maybe I'm wrong.

I had the same problem with my earlier version. My ms started well enough, then the plot kind of just stopped because I was spending too much time developing the relationship between the protagonist and his love interest. Too much "superficial" character building, if you will. Once I cut the first few chapters and started the story close to the main thing, the plot moved along. Backstories can then be integrated into the rest of the story, here and there. I also restructured the chapters, interpersing scenes and flashbacks to create some suspense, which, together with momentum, move your plot.


2- the problem with characterization I mentioned in my first post. A couple of people have said they didn't really feel like they knew who the characters were, and they didn't really care about them.

One way to give your characters depths and create empathy is via dialogues and actions. Not just any actions to move the plot, but actions that develop the characters. Dialogues can reveal a lot -- personalities, emotions, relationships with each other, etc. Also, it makes the reader feel like they're watching and hearing real people. If you find your dialogues and actions only serve to move the plot along, slow down and do some character-driven actions and dialogues. Talk about their families? Children? Your story seems to lend to a lot of personal anecdotes, stories, pain, etc. that can enrich these "gladiators." Each of them has a history, pain, and a reason why he is there. What are their dreams, hopes and desires? If you explore those and put them in actions and dialogues, give them some internal conflicts, I bet the readers will start to root for them.

[Jules Hall]

the problem a couple of people had is that the story didn't really begin for them until halfway through

Have you considered adding a subplot to the start of the story to keep the readers involved while this develops? If you choose it carefully, it should be able to show the two characters well. You should, of course, consider how it ties in with the main story, and it should certainly have some bearing on how that procedes -- maybe you could show how your character learns something that he needs to know in order to fulfil his part in the main plot?

[James D Macdonald]

Your minor characters are characters.

That is, they have hopes, dreams, plans. When they die, those plans are cut short.

They are each the hero of their own stories. They don't know that they aren't the main character and are only there to move the plot along.

They also need to be motivated by something other than "the author said so."

[Yeshanu]

Thanks for the file card tips.

Having written the first draft without file cards or outline, it is now time to do the "agricultural work," as you call it. :ack This is where your file cards might help -- if I put all the scenes on file cards, and then rearrange/add/subtract using the cards, it might seem a little less overwhelming than using the entire first draft. (As well as a lot lighter to carry around.)

[SRHowen]

One of the best sites for grammar, without spending a dime is <a href="http://www.dailygrammar.com/" target="_new">www.dailygrammar.com/</a>

A daily grammar lesson sent in your e-mail or you can go to the site and just open the lessons you need.

Shawn

[ChunkyC]

I think this file card idea ties in well with editor Sol Stein's 'triage' method of revision. He advises against reading the story through from start to finish, fixing every little thing as you go, until you've looked after the big things.

For example, if you're building a house and you realize you put the garage on the second floor, there's no need to paint the railing as you go up the stairs to fetch the garage and bring it down to ground level. Paint the railing later.

I can see using the cards to shuffle scenes around, determine which need to be shortened, lengthened, or cut altogether, and so on. Once you have the garage where it belongs and the bathtub in the bathroom instead of the den, then you can start putting on the doorknobs and hanging the curtains.

[Euan Harvey]

Thanks again for the replies,

>If you find your dialogues and actions only serve to move the plot along, slow down and do some character-driven actions and dialogues.

I had an AHA! moment when reading this. Most of my dialog is just about moving the plot along (main character finds out X, Y or Z). I hadn't really thought about it until now.

>They are each the hero of their own stories.

I remember reading this before, but I don't think I really connected it with what would happen if I didn't make them the hero of their own stories. OK, I finally realize what this means.

>Have you considered adding a subplot to the start of the story to keep the readers involved while this develops?

Hm. I didn't think of this. I guess I could: have a subplot in the foreground and leave the main plot trundling along in the background. So the subplot resolves just as the main plot kicks into really high gear. OK, sounds good, I'll give it a go.

:thumbs

Cheers,

Euan

[Prometheus76]

A friend of my father, we'll call him Rich, went to Harvard and studied political science there. He got his Master's degree there and his adviser was Henry Kissinger. Rich felt quite intimidated but endeavored to do his best for his Master's thesis.

He researched and wrote what he thought to be a great paper. He took it to Mr. Kissinger. Mr. Kissinger said, "Leave it on my desk and come back in three days for it." On the third day Rich returned. Mr. Kissinger got up from behind his desk with the paper in hand, walked around the desk, sat on the edge of it and dropped the paper on the floor.

"You mean to tell me that after six years of a Harvard education under the tutelage of the best minds in the world, this is the best you can come up with? This is it?" He then turned, walked back to his chair, sat down and started back into his work.

Rich picked up the sheets of paper and left, a wad of embarrassment. He went back to his room and pored over his paper, ripping it apart with his editorial knife, trying to make it better. After several days of this slave duty, he brought the paper back to Mr. Kissinger.

"Leave it on my desk. Come back in five days."

Same exact turn of events. Well, Rich went home that night ready to quit school. He felt horrible, but he wasn't going to let Mr. Kissinger win, so to speak. So, back to the paper. Every word, every comma, every sentence, every point, every sub-point scrutinized, cross-examined, interrogated.

He finally returned the paper to Mr. Kissinger.

"Leave it on my desk. Come back in seven days."

Same ritual. "Is this the best you can do? Is this it?"

"Well, yes. It is. I don't know what else I could do to make it better."

"Good. Now I'll read it."

[maestrowork]

The mystery has been solved: Who strangled Henry Kissinger?

:grin

[Chris Goja]

A good anecdote. A bad man.

Pop quiz: What was the name of the comedian who gave up when he found out Kissinger had been nominated for the Nobel peace price, because nothing he could come up with would ever top that?

[paritoshuttam]

Hi,

Each passing day I only seem to realise what my novel lacks. :(

Based on the almost identical inputs from two agents saying they had liked the premise of my novel, but were not "dazzled" by the prose, I decided I should go in for a re-write (minor or major, I don't know as yet).

A decent interval has passed since I last touched the manuscript. On re-reading, I find the initial chapters are not very interesting. The story picks up momentum a little later on, but it is the initial chapters that I need to send the agents.

I know this is a case by case question, but are there any general ways of making chapters interesting? That would make the reader/agent want to quickly turn over to the next one? This is a normal human story; no horror or sci-fi or fantasy. And there won't be any ticking time bombs under the chair at the end of each chapter.

One way I thought of was to divide my long chapters into shorter ones. Am also paying attention to the chapter switches in the books I find gripping. I was reading Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar last night. The story could be about any 20-year old girl, and yet I found myself bounding from chapter to chapter though I was sleepy. That's the quality I know I want, but... I am stuck as to how to actually do it.

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[jeffspock]

Actually, Tom Lehrer had stopped satire long before that, though he did say that political satire became obsolete when Kissinger won the Nobel Peace prize.

More details in an interview with "The Onion" here:

www.theavclub.com/feature...e=3619&f=1 (http://www.theavclub.com/feature/index.php?issue=3619&f=1)

and an article here:

www.smh.com.au/articles/2...53895.html (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/28/1046407753895.html)

While he became famous as a (howlingly funny) satirist and comedian, he was a math professor at UC Santa Cruz until 2001.

[pdr]

Grateful thanks for the Tom Lehrer references. You're the first American I've 'met' who appreciates him. I thought he was one of those 'without honour in his own country'. His skill with words still takes my breathe away.

[maestrowork]

I know this is a case by case question, but are there any general ways of making chapters interesting? That would make the reader/agent want to quickly turn over to the next one? This is a normal human story; no horror or sci-fi or fantasy. And there won't be any ticking time bombs under the chair at the end of each chapter.

One way I thought of was to divide my long chapters into shorter ones. Am also paying attention to the chapter switches in the books I find gripping. I was reading Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar last night. The story could be about any 20-year old girl, and yet I found myself bounding from chapter to chapter though I was sleepy. That's the quality I know I want, but... I am stuck as to how to actually do it.

Paritosh, I also write a basic "human" story with no bombs or terrorists or vampires or aliens. My ms. started too slow and the plot didn't become "interesting" until later on -- too much character stuff in the beginning and not enough "plot." Here's what I did:

1. I cut out 7 chapters, and started the story very close to the point of "no turning back" -- in my case, it's a decision. Before that chapter, the protagonist was basically reacting to things that happened to him. Not until he made a major decision in chapter 8 did the story really kick into gear. The cut was necessary. As Uncle Jim said, start your story when "the theater door is shut and you can't go back in." This work on both physical level (a bomb is about the go off) or pyschological level (I can't go back to my wife). A slow character-study start may work in long literary works of the past, but not in 2004 (there are exceptions, of course. I really liked the movie "Lost in Translation," which is pretty slow).

2. After that chapter, I had a major flashback that was about 15 pages long. I cut it up into smaller, logical chunks, and each chunk presented a question to be answered: Who is this person? What is he going to do next? Etc. Then intersperse these chapters with the main story chapters, creating a literary equivalent of a movie "cross cut." By starting and stopping the readers between the "now" and "then," I tried to create a sense of suspense, feeding them information yet also making them ask more questions -- and these questions are important to the on-going "now" storyline.

Still, that won't make the readers turn the page if they don't care about what is going to happen. You still need good characters, good dialogues, etc. to put them in that "dream state." Make them experience the story instead of just being "told" how it is. You've got to have interesting characters with real desires and a quest or something at stake. That's why you should start the story at that "point of no return" to make them care.

To build momentum and suspense, each chapter should answer at least one question that the readers asked in previous chapters, but create more questions for them to find out. It works for any genre, not just a thriller/suspense novel. If Simone is going out to buy tea, make us realize how the tea is so important to have (perhaps she is trying to impress a would-be suitor, with whom she's desperately in love?) -- that's a question answered. Then have all the stores in London out of that particular tea -- now that's a question that needs to be answered. Because the stake is pretty high (she will lose the man of her dream), you have the readers asking "oh oh, what is she going to do?" Now add another character, a woman called Sarah, who also wanted that man for herself, and she has the last bag of tea -- now you have a conflict. Build your plot with conflict, obstacles and high stakes in mind, driven by the characters' desires, fears, hatred, etc. And actions and circumstances that create consequences (if she doesn't get the tea, what will happen?) -- NOW, you have plot.

[James D Macdonald]

I know this is a case by case question, but are there any general ways of making chapters interesting?

Interesting people in interesting places do interesting things.

Note the verb: "to do."

A character moves, either physically, mentally, or emotionally.

Short anwer: Stuff happens.

[PianoTuna]

Jim, if your writing here has gotten locals bought a dozen of your books; two dozen, even; how many cents per hour does it come to?

[James D Macdonald]

You want plot? You want interest? I got 'em both right here.

Observe Stuff Happening in the fifteen minute version of <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/cleolinda/99710.html" target="_new">Troy</a>.

See if you don't read to the very end.

Yes! Stealing this plot is Okay!

[James D Macdonald]

Jim, if your writing here has gotten locals bought a dozen of your books; two dozen, even; how many cents per hour does it come to?

Not a whole friggin' lot, Piano.

But I tell you what, guys. Yeah, it's nice that you buy my books. Really, I want you to. Dozens. They make excellent gifts. Don't forget to review 'em on Amazon, either.

But...

What would make me happier would be for y'all to get some of the other books and films I've been recommending right the way along in here. Really, not kidding, these works will explain concepts I'm trying to get across. I'm not recommending them just to fill space. Get 'em, read/watch 'em (or build the model), understand what I'm trying to say.

This is where the coach says "You get out of it what you put into it!" and all the players yell "Yeah!" and they go and beat the powerhouse school that everyone thought was going on to the State Championships, and the mysterious benefactor comes across with a huge donation so that Old Pivnich Tech can stay open rather than being sold to a real estate developer, and there's a happy ending when Billy and Sally (quarterback and cheerleader, respectively) pledge "We'll always be true!" and get married, the end.

Quitters never win! Winners never quit! Drat those torpedoes, just drat them!

(Notes on Billy and Sally: For a while, there, it looked like Sally was going to marry (or at least go all the way with) Sam, quarterback of the powerhouse school that everyone thought would win, but at the last moment she remembered that Billy was her true love, so she turned down Sam's improper suggestions, went back to the sorority house to put her BIC and write original prose for two hours, then scampered to the stadium during the final minutes of the Big Game in time to cheer Billy on so that he was able to make an 80 yard pass with just seconds left on the clock, winning the game.)

Meanwhile, get the books I suggested (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=257.to pic&start=845&stop=845) and read 'em.

[maestrowork]

That's funny... the guy is a genius. (He talked about more than 15 minutes of the movie though... more like 40 minutes).

[James D Macdonald]

Each passing day I only seem to realise what my novel lacks.

This is good. This is learning the craft.

<hr>

Some people have asked me how to track submissions. I know that there are some software packages out there (some quite pricey) that track submissions.

Let me tell you how to track submissions.

You have finished your book or story (and I mean finished -- all revisions done, ready to go).

Make a master copy of that story.

Put it in a file folder.

Make a list of all the markets you can think of that are suitable for this story. Start with the best market you can think of -- for whatever "best" means to you. (For me, "best" means most prestige/highest paying.) Each story may well have a different list.

Put these markets on a sheet (or two sheets, or whatever) of paper, ranked from first to last.

Put this sheet with the master copy of your manuscript.

Send out the manuscript to the first place on that story's list.

When the manuscript comes back (and it probably will), draw a line through the address of the publisher who just returned it, and send it that same day to the next place on the list. Continue until you have a line drawn thorugh every market on that story's sheet.

Have new markets opened up since you made the list? Try there. If no new markets, put that story to bed in your desk drawer for a minimum of one year, then re-read it with an eye to rewriting it.

Now, suppose a market writes back saying "yes" to a story. Circle that publisher's address on that story's sheet. Go to every other file folder you have, and put that market's address on your list, immediately under the last crossed-out address (provided it is a suitable story).

Suppose a publisher writes back with a rejection, but with the note "try us with your next."

Cross out that publisher on that story's sheet. Go to all or your other stories' sheets and put that publisher (provided it is a suitable market) directly under the last address that you crossed out.

Simple, easy, no problems.

The master copy of the manuscript is so you can photocopy a new one if the one that comes back is worn-looking, or if you are using disposable manuscripts.

What do I mean by "suitable market"? Don't send your hard-boiled private-eye stories to Little Bitty Bunny Tales magazine. Don't send "My Happiest Christmas" to Buckets of Blood magazine. You're still responsible for knowing the market.

Meanwhile, write another darned story.

[Fresie]

Uncle Jim, thanks! Can I ask a question which is probably quite stupid but again, it's because I've obviously read too much "writing advice". You say:

The master copy of the manuscript is so you can photocopy a new one if the one that comes back is worn-looking, or if you are using disposable manuscripts.

So is it all right to photocopy a manuscript, then? Everybody seems to be saying, "always print out a fresh copy". That's what I do with articles and short stories, but obviously a novel is a huge beast, all this waste of printer ink, so--is it really all right to photocopy? (I realise it has to be a quality copy).

BTW, I've noticed that Courrier takes dramatically less ink than other fonts. It's impressively economical, in fact. But it would be nice to know you have both options.

[James D Macdonald]

A high-quality photocopy is indistinguishable from the output of a laser printer (they use identical processes).

We're not in the days anymore when photocopies turned out white-on-black, or when photocopies were on that dreadful slick paper.

You're making your photocopies from the master document each time, not submitting a copy-of-a-copy-of-a-copy.

So yes, photocopy submissions are allowable. With disposable manuscripts, even expected.

(When you're getting ready to send a manuscript back out, take a moment to run through it to make sure it still has all its pages, and no one's turned one of them upside down or something.)


(And yes, Courier does use less toner.)

[Fresie]

Thanks a lot, Uncle Jim. Now all I need to do is finish the bloody thing so I can start worrying about photocopies.:rollin

[paritoshuttam]

Thanks, maestro.

I agree, moving back and forth in time can create interest and suspense. But sometimes it might not be possible. I did consider the flashbacks and the forwards but I felt in my case it would work against me.

In essence, you could call my story a "growth of character" or "coming of age" story. My intention was to show the main character's innocence at the beginning. As the novel progresses, external forces influence him and affect his character. And by the end, his character has shifted to the opposite end of the spectrum from where he began. Just say, he starts off as a good guy and turns bad.

Now I wanted to show this change gradually to make it seem believable. If I use forwards and flashbacks, I would be sabotaging my own plan. I feel it wouldn't work if in Chapter One I make him good and in Chapter Two I make him bad, and the rest of the novel interpolating the extremes.

But I see the danger of going in a linear way--I am not able to build up the suspense, the anticipation.

Do I sound confusing or confused? :shrug Hope you get what I say, Uncle Jim and maestro and others.

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[James D Macdonald]

Two things, paritoshuttam:

1) Write the full book and see how it reads. You can shuffle and reshuffle the order of scenes in second and third drafts.

2) As a general principle, only violate strict chronology for the very best of reasons.

<hr>
But I see the danger of going in a linear way--I am not able to build up the suspense, the anticipation.

That's what "foreshadowing" was invented for.

[maestrowork]

P,

Do you have a subplot that you can use to do the "cross cutting"?

Foreshadowing is a good technique to create suspense. Just don't be too coy so to irritate the readers.

Basically nothing is wrong with straight chronological storytelling, and without reading your ms I really can't tell if there's anything wrong with your structure. However, if you feel like the story is not moving along fast enough, etc. I do suggest looking into some type of structural changes to create a little more momentum. If you can't use flashbacks, use subplots. If you don't have subplots, try to cut your chapters differently -- end on a question, and not a conclusion... For example, if your original chapter is:

- Jack goes to the store to buy a particular type of tea, but they're all out. So he drives all the way to Chicago and find it there.

Cut your chapter into two:

1. Jack goes to the store and buys a particular type of tea, but they're all out. What to do?

2. Jack decides to go to Chicago, and he finds it. But he forgets his wallet. What to do?

....


Something like that may speed up your momentum and help turn that page. Again, without reading your ms, I can't really give you any specific suggestions that is suitable for you.

[maestrowork]

But nowadays, printing out a fresh copy is probably cheaper than going to Kinko's, even considering the cost of paper and ink toner. Except you'll get some wear-and-tear on your laser printer.

It costs me $0.05 per page to photocopy the master at Kinko's. It costs me $0.009 per page (toner) and $0.001 (paper) so the total cost for printing a fresh copy is $0.01 per page.

[macalicious731]

Now I wanted to show this change gradually to make it seem believable. If I use forwards and flashbacks, I would be sabotaging my own plan.

In some cases, a gradual change can be too slow on the reader's end. What could be helpful would be to separate the gradual narrative with one or two key scenes which show your character as potentially bad. This would be the foreshadowing both Jim and Maestro mentioned.

Your character could be walking down the street and see a little kid in need of help. What does he do? Does he help him, hurt him, etc...? The character doesn't need to already be bad in these situations. The difference comes from when he's good and always thinks the same way, then he contemplates the "bad" thoughts, then finally acts them out. Scenes like those should not only provide foreshadow, but tension and suspense. They can also give the reader a bit of a shock when the character finally does go bad if you've built him up correctly - they've expected it, but because of these mini situations, they won't know the real turn for sure until you give it to them.

<3.

[maestrowork]

Just another thought... it's interesting that your character goes from good to bad. It sounds a little depressing, but I suppose it can work -- I mean Star Wars I,II and III are about the down fall of Anakin Skywalker (although there's an up ... he also gains power -- and also we have the benefit of SW IV, V and VI in which we know how it all ends.. happily). So I am thinking, to show your character going from good to bad, you have to give him something -- something he desires, and something at stake -- Power? Revenge? Hatred? Something happens to him? What drives him to madness? That sort of things will (1) enhance your characters and make the readers empathize with him and (2) give you plot momentum and suspense.

(BTW, the Star Wars trilogies use a lot of foreshadowing to increase the suspense.)

[pina la nina]

In terms of creating gripping chapters - seems to me like you'd want to start each one with a hook, kind of like how you'd want to start your book.

And then to give some thought to the end of each chapter too - not to view the chapter as the end of a short story with too much wrapped up. To try and balance between the closure of that scene and the hint of what's to come.

I'm not explaining myself well - but I find JK Rowling great at this, she ends each chapter in a way that you just have to see what's coming next and starts each one so that you don't want to put it down.

And can I tell you how excited I am about the file cards? I do time lines, but they can get unwieldy, I will be transcribing to cards forthwith!

[macalicious731]

You know what I admire about Rowling? Her ability to write one, seemingly meaningless sentence which later - even books later - comes to hold magnificient relevance.

Absolutely fantastic plot writing. And index cards? The first step!

[alinasandor]

I just want to say that I find the card idea fabulous!!!:jump I've read about a similar version of this idea where you put all of your cards, once completed, on a bulletin board. All of the cards don't have any labeling, such as Chapter 1, etc. Then, you mix and match the cards to come up with new variations on the plot. I think this can be a great way to fix what isn't working in a story. The scene doesn't work in chapter 1? Poof! Move it under chapter 5.
It's great!

[paritoshuttam]

<hr />Just another thought... it's interesting that your character goes from good to bad.<hr />

Well it's not that character turns out bad all of a sudden. The motivation is pretty much there... at least the circumstances force him to do so. In a nutshell: a failed love affair that makes him take out his anger on other things.

The story is credible; I don't harbour doubts about that aspect. But the page-turning quality is missing, as I now recognize after laying off from the MS for a decent period. As many of you have pointed out here, that I need to give a bait to the reader at the end of a chapter. I think that's where I am missing out. It's almost like each chapter is a self-contained unit--only chronology takes you from Chapter One to Chapter Two.

When I was writing the first draft, I did have my doubts but I thought this is how it would happen in real life. But since then have realised what it means when you say fiction is not portraying real life as it is. You have to make the portrayal interesting too. It was my first attempt, and I am learning.

OK, so I will turn over the following options:

1. Write the main scenes and turning points on cards.
2. See how much I can shuffle them around to make it interesting without destorying the main plot.
3. What subplots I can include.
4. Make chapters shorter and end them with a question or two that the reader cannot resist following.

Thanks a lot folks.
Paritosh.

[paritoshuttam]

I have used a bit of foreshadowing. I only mention a few facts and places in the first chapter that will set the scene in the climax in the last chapter. Was that being too subtle?

Or, still better, could you illustrate what you would call effective foreshadowing, Uncle Jim?

Thanks,
Paritosh.

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.literature.org/authors/poe-edgar-allan/amontillado.html" target="_new">The Cask of Amontillado</a> by E. A. Poe is an exercise in foreshadowing.

Take, for example:
<blockquote>

The man wore motley. He had on a tight-fitting parti-striped dress and his head was surmounted by the conical cap and bells.

</blockquote>

(Montressor is dressed as a fool; Fortunato fools him.)

<blockquote>
"Come," I said, with decision, "we will go back; your health is precious. You are rich, respected, admired, beloved; you are happy, as once I was. You are a man to be missed. For me it is no matter. We will go back; you will be ill, and I cannot be responsible. Besides, there is Luchresi --"


"Enough," he said; "the cough's a mere nothing; it will not kill me. I shall not die of a cough."
</blockquote>


or

<blockquote>
"I drink," he said, "to the buried that repose around us."
</blockquote>

or

<blockquote>

"You are not of the masons."

"Yes, yes," I said; "yes, yes."

"You? Impossible! A mason?"

"A mason," I replied.


</blockquote>

[pixie juice]

Hi Uncle Jim 'n friends...

I just wanted to say thanks for all the hard work and thought everybody has put into this post. I started reading it for "the perfect cover letter" that someone pointed to here from the Short Fiction forum, and 70-something pages later, I've ended up learning so much more than that.

I write short stories and poetry, nothing published yet, but I'm working on that. I have a novel in my head... and I know that means absolutely nothing until it's down on paper... but it's just such a BIG thing to approach. I'm just a fledgling of a writer, and maybe it's even that I don't feel "accomplished enough" to start a novel yet.

Anyway though, I don't have any specific questions right now, but I'm sure I will in time. I'm enforcing the BIC method upon myself every day... and the note card outlining method sounds like a perfect idea (may even help with some of my shorts).

I just wanted to say kudos.

Peace :)

[James D Macdonald]

... but it's just such a BIG thing to approach.

One word at a time, one page at at time.

We were still calling our first novel "the short story" when we'd hit page 200. Talk about "unclear on the concept...."

[James D Macdonald]

From another thread (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessageRange?topicID=562.to pic&start=1&stop=20):

<hr>

What agents do:

You're hiring an agent for his/her expertise.

An agent:

a) Knows which editors are looking for what properties. The agent is better able to fit a given manuscript with the house most likely to offer on it,

b) Is able to negotiate a more advantageous contract, knows what's a good deal from a particular house,

c) Keeps track of money coming in, contract terms, reversions, and so on,

d) acts as a guarantor to the editor that the manuscript is worth reading, and is appropriate to the house; this moves the manuscript to a higher position in the to-read pile,

e) can arrange "auctions," which are a formalized form of simultaneous submission,

f) can make suggestions to improve your manuscript before submission.

The agent is a go-between, to handle the business end, so you and the editor can pretend that all you're interested in is art.

<hr>

Note: The best agent in the world can't sell a bad manuscript.

More important: The best agent in the world won't even try to sell a bad manuscript. Editors know this. That's what makes the guy the best agent in the world.

[Chris Goja]

( I'm in the middle of moving house, so I'll keep it brief and to the point: )

Agents are clearly the thing to have this season, that much I've gleaned, but how does one go about actually accq... aqu... getting one, then?

Just flipping through the pages of Writers' Handbook doesn't seem a very efficient way of getting one, so is there any inside information on where to find one of the best? Having read earlier posts about bad ones I wouldn't want to end up with one of them!

[James D Macdonald]

A useful agent has sold books that you've heard of.

So ...

Take a book that you've read and liked. Find out who agented it. Write to that guy.

[SRHowen]

start out with the Writer's Market book, ( I tell you it's a book because years ago, I sent out my very first ms and was told to consult The Writer's Market and had no idea what it was.)(this was before the Internet folks)

But the book is only a starting place. You have to go through the agent's section (or get just the guide to agents) and mark all the ones that are interested in what you write. If they say no romance, then don't mark them. I used a highlighter to highlight the name.

Next, go to google. Put in the agent's name. Read what comes up about that agent. If they have a web page, check it out. If they list sales, check that the books do exist. Most legit agencies list their clients--do you know any of the names? Do they write what you write?

Check out some of those writer's web sites--most have a contact e-mail. E-mail them and ask about the agent. DO NOT ASK TO BE RECOMMENDED TO THEIR AGENT--this will seriously piss them off.

Now look at your list--I bet a lot of names are gone. Of the ones that are left send a query.

But always remember the golden rule--money flows toward the author. DO NOT PAY ANYTHING IN ADVANCE-- NOT EVEN POSTAGE ETC. Many agencies are now charging postage, copy costs, boxes etc. before a sale is made, but not before the cost is incurred and you should receive a statement. (a reasonable statement which includes item by item $$ for each thing)

Good agents edit, not all, but they do not recommend you to a "book doctor." They do not recommend that you pay their editing dept $$

They make their money on the sale of your book.

Shawn

[macalicious731]

Uncle Jim, I recognize that response...;)

Thank you!

<3.

[macalicious731]

James - you're in NH? No kidding! Whereabouts? (If you don't mind my asking...)

[James D Macdonald]

Where in New Hampshire? Waaaaaay up north. Think "Canada" and you're about right.

[Chris Goja]

that was a very good explanation, indeed. I'm much obliged. Now if only I had something to send to these illustrious folks.... :o


Chris

[Chris Goja]

is in Alaska, according to a certain song, innit?

But then my interest in geography has always been limited to "How do I get out of here and back to that pub?", so what do I know...?

Cheers,


Chris (living in a world of boxes)

[macalicious731]

Ah, I see. Stuck up in the mountains with all the moose, are you?

[JuliePgh]

Uncle Jim,

I know when to end a scene, but I'm not sure what necessitates beginning a new chapter. Some books appear to end a chapter with a hook, only to start the next chapter at the same point, same scene.

How obvious should hooks be?

Also, on a similar note, when I'm running many subplots how should they be grouped in chapters? Right now, I order them chronologically and don't worry about which subplots fall in the same chapter. I look at the overall chapter size to determine when to cut and begin anew.

What is your advice?

Thank you! I start came across this site two nights ago and can't wait to finish reading your thread!

(My apologies for the double posting; I'm still learning how to navigate the site and I posted to the general area by mistake. I really want to hear from Uncle Jim!)

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Julie --

Would you believe me if I said "I don't know?"

It really depends on your book. No one said your book even has to be divided into chapters.

Some rules of thumb:

A chapter is a comfortable length to read at one sitting. If your chapters are ten to fifteen pages, that works for a lot of people. Three-to-four page chapters give a feeling of breakneck pace, which might work for a thriller, or might not.

The question is -- where does the break feel natural to you?

A chapter ending contains a reason for the person who put the book down last night before he went to sleep to pick your book up, rather than watch TV, start another book, or play touch football.

Sub-plots -- as long as the reader isn't confused about where they are in the plot, anything you do is okay. Do not confuse the reader.

Your hooks don't need to be obvious at all. (Being too obvious can give your novel a rather Hardy Boys feeling.) They just have to be there.

[pencilone]

First of all, many thanks to uncle Jim for this thread.

I've been crawling through it for the past week and I was impressed about the useful info provided.

I have a little question too...

Let's say we have the good versus bad theme.
Do you think that (generally speaking) the reader would feel somehow cheated if, by the end of the story, the 'bad' from the beginning becomes 'good' too (only that a different kind of good ), and the initial 'good' moves towards 'bad' (from a different perspective than that at the beginning).

Or maybe it is better to have a consistent 'bad' throughout the story?

I hope I don't sound too confusing;)

Regards,

Pencilone

[Jules Hall]

If you mean what I think you mean (stories where it turns out that the "good guys" from the start aren't actually all that good, and the "bad guys" aren't all that bad), I like stories that follow that kind of path. They're not common, but they can be fun to read.

There's at least two good ways of doing it; either the story shows the protagonist realising he's on the wrong side and switching, or it uses dramatic irony to show the reader that the protagonist is on the wrong side, and leaves you wondering whether he's going to switch right up until the climax...

[Fresie]

Crime and Punishment.

A self-centered, sleazy, friendless, over-ambitious (however human Dostoevsky portrays him), arrogant little s**t. Murders two innocent people and happily gets away with it by 3/4 of the book. And then all his little positive traits, all these bits of foreshadowing that Dostoevsky so cleverly plants all over the book, suddenly kick in and we see what a good guy he really is! :love

I don't really think there's such a thing as a bad person. They're just confused, disoriented good people on their way out of their confusion.

(As for good guys turning bad, I would think, literature is packed with them. I immediately thought of King Lear's daughters, for some reason)

I think you've got a great idea.:thumbs

[macalicious731]

Cheated? Absolutely not. Character growth is what we as readers demand. The specific kind of growth is what makes the story interesting, and also what sets it apart from the rest.

Of course, I just ask we receive explanation as to way the change of sides (hopefully with some foreshadowing?) - but you already knew that. :D

<3.

[James D Macdonald]

Do you think that (generally speaking) the reader would feel somehow cheated if, by the end of the story, the 'bad' from the beginning becomes 'good' too (only that a different kind of good ), and the initial 'good' moves towards 'bad' (from a different perspective than that at the beginning).

Well, golly. You've just described the theme arc in the first three of our Mageworlds (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/mageworl.htm) books . (Buy one! Bettter still, buy a dozen! They make excellent gifts!)

Or, as someone else (my beloved co-author, to be precise) once said: "The conflict of good vs. evil is all very well, but if you want to make your characters squirm, try the conflict of good vs. good."

[maestrowork]

Or good/bad vs. good/bad... characters who are not totally bad or totally good... makes for really interesting read because you really don't know who's going to "win."

[paritoshuttam]

That was a wonderful illustration, Uncle Jim. I could sense what was coming from Fortunato's saying a cold would not kill him. But the best was the talk about the freemasons, though I could get its significance only on the second reading, helped along by your pointers.

Is all foreshadowing that subtle? I can understand a discerning reader remembering such details in the duration of a short story, but if you consider a novel, such details in foreshadowing will spread across chapters. Does the average reader (as opposed to a critic) really recalls such details while reading a novel? Unless of course the foreshadowing is done too often (in which case it is hardly a shadow!)...

- Paritosh.

[maestrowork]

In a novel, you can keep bringing up the same details as foreshadows... they will eventually stick.

In my story, I gradually get my protagonist into a drinking habit, thoughout the first half of the book... first a beer, then some wine, then some hard liquor... they're quite subtle... but then a pivotal scene comes and he's at a bar... anyway, an attentive reader should notice the foreshadowing. You don't have to hit them on the head with it. Another thing is a friend of the protagonist is mentioned a few times, in passing, in multiple chapters, so you would think something is going to involve this person, so when he shows up at a pivotal point, the readers would go "a-ha!"

[James D Macdonald]

Is all foreshadowing that subtle?

It certainly can be. The entire atmosphere of your book is an artistic space that you create, where everything points to its end. You are responsible for providing the information to the readers, though it can be in very small ways.

When I make a stew I don't dump in the entire box of salt.

[Fresie]

When I make a stew I don't dump in the entire box of salt.

Isn't it possible to be too subtle? I often notice that some readers (very few) see the slightest hint where others need a big fat signpost. I guess, the only way to find out is to listen to what beta readers say?

If we spell everything out, we end up with a comic book, but how subtle is too subtle? :huh

[James D Macdonald]

Isn't it possible to be too subtle?

Sure. It's all possible. This is why we call this particular trade an art.

If this were a science we could look up a table that would tell us how much and what kind of foreshadowing to use.

[JuliePgh]

Uncle Jim,

I haven't made it through the whole thread yet, but I couldn't wait any longer to compliment you on all the wonderful advice. If you haven't decided to write a "How to Write" book, please do!

- Julie

[robertquiller]

Uncle Jim,

I have finally read through the (almost) endless thicket of this thread, and must add my voice to the electronic multitude already extolling you. Great advice! Great way to give advice - so interactive and immediate. I must say these posts have had more effect on me than many 'writing books.' I was so riveted that I think I broke a record - I read this whole thread in a day! (Took almost the *whole* day, too.) Anyway, I have this short-fiction habit I'm trying to break, and this thread is just the impetus I need. I have begun my novel, no longer scared by the 'massiveness' of the idea - in fact I stayed up last night longer than I ever did on a short-story, the ideas just kept poring in. Great thread!

~ R.Q.

[pencilone]

I've been struggling with my first draft for months (actually I'm too ashamed to say years). I was wondering how is it possible for some of the most prolific writers to write so quickly (for example Nora Roberts and I'm sure there are so many of them that write over 10 novels per year).

On another note, is anyone using voice recognition software (such as Dragon Naturally Speaking) for writing your novel?

Regards,

Pencilone

[Flawed Creation]

I just want to agree with the advocates of Good Vs. Good stories.

of course, for a TRULY twisted story, you can combine different elements to make the Good Vs bad more interesting. my story uses all three previously mentioned methods.

there are two groups, allegedly both good. niether is obviously non-good. they conflict, several characters change sides, most fo the characters become more and more bad and les good, the only characters that start out truly bad become good (or at least, one flavor of good.)

finally, it's never spelled out for the reader whihc side is right. you can choose for yourself.

i mention this not to brag, but to point out that a book about the conflict of parties separated by moral issues need not be simple or straightforward.

[MiltonPope]

I'm using Dragon NaturallySpeaking at least for the early version of my book. It works very well for normal text, but it gets cumbersome when you get into dialogue:

"What are you saying?" Bill demanded.
"I don't have to tell you anything, Bill!"

This is dictated as:
"New-paragraph open-quote What are you saying question-mark close-quote cap [capitalize] bill demanded period new-paragraph open-quote I don't have to tell you anything comma cap bill exclamation-mark close-quote new-paragraph"

(Although there are ways to make it realize that "Bill" is a name.)

Also, it can take a lot of hours before it recognizes nearly everything you say. But after, say, two months of casual use I was very happy with it.

When I dictate, I find that my writing goes much faster than when I type. This isn't because I can't type quickly: it's just the way I think, I guess.

--Milton

[robertquiller]

I've tried using that same program. I really found it annoying - apart from the time it took to set up, so it would even recognize my voice, all those little extra doo-hickeys you have to say (like you just pointed out) waste time. Maybe it would be easier for you, if you write better by dictation, to record yourself on a tape-recorder, and then type in what you said later. It would cut out the aggravation, and from my experience at least - but there, I'm a typer myself - it would probably actually save time, though it sounds longer.

~ R.Q.

[James D Macdonald]

Write ten to fifteen pages per day, and you'll have ten novels per year.

See how easy it is?

[JuliePgh]

Uncle Jim,

Please comment on how one should display internal monologues. When is italicizing appropriate or inappropriate? My dilemna is thus: when a character has a lot of internal monologue, either in one scene or spread throughout a chapter, I become worried that there’s too much italics on the pages. On the other hand, I don’t like to see a lot of ‘she thought’ tags to indicate internal monologue. Is it appropriate or too confusing to the reader to disregard both and just write from the character’s POV mixed in with the author’s POV?

(Forgive me if my question is muddled. This is not my usual hour. I’m just enjoying the fact that the 3 kids are asleep and no one’s bothering me!)

Thank you!
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp - Julie

[maestrowork]

Julie, you may want to ask why you have so many internal monologue in your narrative.

[pixie juice]

Julie,

Have you ever read Gerald's Game by Stephen King? He uses A LOT of internal monologue in that book (being that the whole novel is almost entirely in the main character's head), and he uses italics for it. It might be a good example for you.

Julie, you may want to ask why you have so many internal monologue in your narrative

Assuming you've already addressed this question, then I would say use italics. You're right that "she thought" would become obtrusive.

[James D Macdonald]

On the other hand, The Killer Angels (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345348109/ref=nosim/madhousemanor) uses tons of internal dialog and none of it is italicized.

So ....

Be consistent with yourself, and see how it reads.

[maestrowork]

As long as it's clear that your character is thinking... with first person narrative, you may not have to use italics because it's understood that the narrator is talking/thinking. If it's third person, then you probably need a way to indicate character's internal thoughts apart from narrative. In my novel, the main character has an argument with himself inside his head (a Gollum moment, if you will) and I alternate using italics and normal text. As long as it's clear and consistent, it should work.

[Pthom]

On a break from the day job and without enough time or impetus to work on my own novel, I read Speaker for the Dead by Orson Scott Card.

Not only does he use multiple points of view, most often (but not always) separated by chapter breaks, but he has several characters carry on internal monologues. However, the only time he uses italics is for emphasis, never for these "thinking sprees."

At first, it was a bit confusing to determine what was going on, since Card shows the "thinking" as just another sentence, stuffed in among sentences describing action, or even exposition. By the time I got to the end of the novel, though, Card's technique seemed most natural to me. I guess it works because these "thinking" sentences are always a part of the paragraph dealing directly with the character doing the thinking.

[Jules Hall]

Yes. You don't normally notice it, but reading a third person limited viewpoint piece everything that is reported is what the POV character for the scene is sensing, whether that's real senses, emotions, or deductions made. There really shouldn't be anything in the author's voice in there, so there isn't room to get confused. And the reader will pick that up pretty quickly, even if they're not used to reading the style.

Speaker for the Dead is one of my favourite books, btw. I just love that entire examination-of-alien-culture subgenre. Wish I could come up with a decent plot for one myself, but I've tried and failed. Maybe some time after my first million words :)

[James D Macdonald]

If anyone was thinking of applying to the Viable Paradise Workshop (http://www.sff.net/paradise/), the deadline is about three weeks away.
<hr>
If you aren't into a week-long workshop, I'll be at Writers' Weekend (http://www.writersweekend.com/) in Chicago, 17-19 June, 2005.

[Andrew Jameson]

I've been reading this thread for a couple months now, and I'd like to thank Uncle Jim and every one else for their answers. I want to de-lurk for a few questions, though.

1. Rewrites: This question was asked a couple pages ago, but I don't think it was ever answered. When you *re*write, do you take a pass through on each issue individually (e.g., one pass for scene order, then another for adequate description, a third for consistant characterization, etc.) or do you smooth over the rough edges on *everything*, one pass at a time?

2: On agents: It seems like very few markets in my chosen genre (SF/F) accept unagented manuscripts. Meanwhile, most agents want a only query letter, and no one reads manuscripts any more. So it seems like a case of "you need an agent to get a book published, but you need a published book to get an agent." Comments? Do I need to pay my dues by writing short fiction first? Or am I mischaracterizing the issue?

3. Bios: I have plenty of credentials, just none related to fiction writing. Am I correct in assuming that no one cares, and by bio is essentially a blank sheet of paper? What is relevant, in the fiction world?

4: Slushpiles: I've heard plenty of stories, here and elsewhere, about the awesome lack of quality found in slushpiles. But are there ever any gems? Uncle Jim, have you ever found anything worthwhile in a slushpile? Or, rather, the real question is: how often do publishers actually publish out of the slush?

5: On writing: A question on the passive voice. I know that active verbs are preferred. However, I come from a background in technical writing, where the passive voice is often used, and I try to be conscious of my own use of active versus passive. There are times that the passive voice just sounds better to me; however, I'm suspicious of my own sense of the matter. Can you give some examples of situations in writing where the passive voice is preferred, or is it always verboten? Or, used in moderation, is it a style issue?

Thanks!

[Kate Nepveu]

A couple of quick notes, leaving the substance to those more experienced--

If you're interested in sf/f and you don't already have a subscription to _Locus_ magazine, you should. Among other things, it lists sales. If the sale is by a "new author," and no agent is listed, I believe it's likely to have been a slush sale.

I don't think anyone has statistics about how often books are pulled out of the slush, and as Uncle Jim and others will tell you, it's the wrong question--it's not a matter of filling quotas. But facts are reassuring things sometimes, so: I don't work in publishing, I just hang out around the edges in the way that many sf fans do, so it's not as though I'm hearing about sales daily. However, I am personally aware of two slush sales that led to hardcover publications: one by a friend, Jo Walton, who has published a total of four books and won the John W. Campbell Best New Writer Award; and another (still forthcoming) by someone I couldn't pick out of a lineup, that an editor was enthusing to me about at a con.

It does actually happen, so if you can put that worry aside and worry instead about making your book as good as it can be. Good luck.

[JuliePgh]

I’m having a problem with a character’s name. Let’s say my character is Harry Trumble. The world I’ve built is rather formal; use of first names is rare except by close friends/family. I want the reader to identify with the heroine who starts off referring to him as Trumble, but eventually switches to Harry as the relationship evolves. The other characters who interact with Harry Trumble have a formal relationship, therefore using Trumble.

Is switching back and forth from Harry to Trumble a definite “Don’t” of writing?

My inclination is to do the following: Use Trumble for all references, until my heroine is permitted to use Harry, then use Harry for the heroine’s and author’s POV, and only use Trumble in the other characters’ dialogue.

Any advice is appreciated! Thank you!

[maestrowork]

Julie, as long as you're consistent, I don't see any problem.


----

Andrew, I too came from a technical background (although I don't write SF/F). I understand your issues with active vs. passive voice. The problem is technical writing is a whole different beast (and they're meant to be more "difficult" to read). In fiction, you do try to use active voice whenever you can, even though you're used to passive voice. Basically, you need to use a voice that makes sense for the characters or situations. There are times when passive voice is better, because the POV character is passive. E.g.:

"John was swept away by the river." John is the POV character and he is passive. It does read better than "The river swept John away." However, you may rewrite it so it reads better with active voice -- basically, in fiction, you are telling a story where interesting characters do interest things... if things are "done" to them instead, it makes for a less exciting story. In the above example, you can write it with more excitement:

"The river swell and swallowed John..."

As far as rewrites go, there's no fixed ways. You do what makes sense to you. I gather that since you have a technical background, your method is probably more structured (one pass at a time) and that's fine. The issue is, you don't want to call the draft (2nd, 3rd, etc.) done until you have covered all the basis -- how you do it is a matter of personal choice.

I personally do a macro rewrite to check story flows, chapter structures, character development, etc. Then I do another micro pass to fix technical problems, and rewrite my sentences, cut out excess... then I read it over again to make sure the story still flows well. But that's just me.

[Kate Nepveu]

No reason why different characters can't use different names to refer to the same character. I've even read one very good novel (_The Last Hot Time_ by John M. Ford) where the point-of-view character starts thinking of *himself* by a different name partway through: it was a very effective way of communicating the character's development.

I wonder, though, if you could explain a bit what you mean by "then use Harry for the heroine’s and author’s POV"? It's the "author's POV" part that I'm wondering about: why would the "author" change the way that the character is referred to?

[Andrew Jameson]

Kate and Maestro: Thank you for the replies. For the Lotus tip, I do subscribe to Lotus, but hadn't thought to check for (presumably) unagented sales. As for slush, I wasn't really looking for quotas, per se; more for some affirmation that publishers treat slush semi-seriously and that planning on submitting to a slush pile doesn't make me a loser. Maestro, good example with the river. I just think that my inner ear is calibrated to accept the passive voice in more situations than where it's warranted, so some examples are good.

Julie, if you'll accept advice from another noob, I think changing the name in the heroine's POV is perfectly acceptable, because it reflects her own inner thought in that POV. Changing it in the author's POV (by which I assume you mean a third person omniscient narrator?) is a little more dicey, but if you've been careful to identify the "author" with the horoine in other ways, seems like it might work.

[Jules Hall]

In my current novel, I have a main character who has different names used by different people. He thinks of himself as Mike, and most of his close friends do as well. He works in a military-ish organisation, so a lot of his colleagues refer to him by his rank & surname, shortened to just his surname. His immediate superior always calls him Michael (which annoys him, not that he's ever said anything about it).

In the narrative, I use the appropriate name that would be used by the POV character for the scene (I'm writing it in 3rd person limited), which means it is almost always Mike. I did get a little confused about this earlier on in the writing, but now I'm doing it this way, I think it is much clearer.

Andrew... in response to your agents dilemma, I think the answer is to write a good query letter. The impression I have is that most agents, on receiving a well written and clearly presented query that describes a story that is actually in their preferred genre will ask to see the manuscript. The reason they want the query isn't to strip out unpublished authors, but rather to strip out clueless ones.

And regurgitating previous advice re. credentials: if it's directly relevant to the story, include it, otherwise don't. If that means you don't have anything to say, let your manuscript/synopsis say it for you.

[SRHowen]

You don't just submit full mss--well some still do take them, but if you have seen the piles of the slush at TOR--YIKES!!

You send a query letter--short sweet. Then if they ask for your ms, it is no longer part of the slush pile--it is then requested material.

As to changing a character's name--I hate books that do this. You end up wondering who the heck the author is talking about. IN the military almost everyone uses last name only. One day my hubby called someone by their first name when he was talking to me about them and I wondered who they were for most of the conversation.

I read a submission once where the author wanted more variety in his John said he said --so he had John, Johnny, Sgt Smith, Smith, and so on--I was so confused I wrote a scathing readers report--it was a good story but the names different were just too confusing.

An editor, agent or reader --reading for the first time does not have the knowledge you do of the character--they don't know he goes by three different names. So they will assume you are talking about 3 diff characters.

Shawn

[Kate Nepveu]

As for slush, I wasn't really looking for quotas, per se; more for some affirmation that publishers treat slush semi-seriously and that planning on submitting to a slush pile doesn't make me a loser.Have some affirmations, then. => And after all, why bother taking unagented submissions, if not to take them seriously?

(_Locus_ will also be a good place for you to find agents representing authors who write similar works to yours.)

[maestrowork]

Good point about "slush" vs. "requested material."

RE: changing names. Try establishing it early on:

"Michael," the boss said to Mike Smith, "Sgt. Jones here wants to speak to you."
"Smith," Jones told Mike. "Please sit down."


Then be consistent throughout. The narrator should try to use the same name throughout the narrative, however. I remember when I read the prologue to "Da Vinci Code" I was very confused. Brown alternately called a character by his last name and "the Curator" -- at first I thought it was two different people.

[macalicious731]

In response to changing the names:

As long as you, as an author, don't continually swap names, this shouldn't be an issue. If from the beginning your character is "Mike" in the narrative, he should remain Mike throughout.

Dialogue is different. In dialogue we understand more clearly the other characters, especially in their relationships with one another. Swapping out names, I should think, is a very effective way to show personal affection (or dislike).

[James D Macdonald]

1. Rewrites: This question was asked a couple pages ago, but I don't think it was ever answered. When you *re*write, do you take a pass through on each issue individually (e.g., one pass for scene order, then another for adequate description, a third for consistant characterization, etc.) or do you smooth over the rough edges on *everything*, one pass at a time?

Sometimes this, sometimes that. Use whatever method works for you. You're going to be re-writing your story a lot of times. You won't let it out of the house until all of those issues are covered. What order you do them in, one at a time or all together, will be invisible to your readers.

2: On agents: It seems like very few markets in my chosen genre (SF/F) accept unagented manuscripts. Meanwhile, most agents want a only query letter, and no one reads manuscripts any more. So it seems like a case of "you need an agent to get a book published, but you need a published book to get an agent." Comments? Do I need to pay my dues by writing short fiction first? Or am I mischaracterizing the issue?

Having an agent isn't necessary in order to get a novel published, but it helps. Being published isn't necessary in order to get an agent, but it helps.

The one thing that's truly required is having an outstanding manuscript. If by "paying your dues by writing short fiction" you mean "practicing enough so that your manuscript will shine," then do so. The one thing you must have is that manuscript.

3. Bios: I have plenty of credentials, just none related to fiction writing. Am I correct in assuming that no one cares, and my bio is essentially a blank sheet of paper? What is relevant, in the fiction world?

What is relevant in the fiction world? If your story is about a gerbil breeder, and you breed gerbils, then say so. Otherwise, who cares about those furry little rodents?

What is relevant is a) recent, impressive sales, and b) life experience directly related to your current story.

4: Slushpiles: I've heard plenty of stories, here and elsewhere, about the awesome lack of quality found in slushpiles. But are there ever any gems? Uncle Jim, have you ever found anything worthwhile in a slushpile? Or, rather, the real question is: how often do publishers actually publish out of the slush?

Yes, I have found stuff in slush piles that has gotten passed up the line. If there's ten pieces of crud for every good story or ten thousand pieces of crud for every good story it doesn't matter if you've written the good story.

Think about it this way: with the exception of people like Paris Hilton, absolutely everyone you see on the shelves came out of one slushpile or another. (And Paris Hilton didn't write her own book; the acutal author started out in a slushpile somewhere.)

5: On writing: A question on the passive voice. I know that active verbs are preferred. However, I come from a background in technical writing, where the passive voice is often used, and I try to be conscious of my own use of active versus passive. There are times that the passive voice just sounds better to me; however, I'm suspicious of my own sense of the matter. Can you give some examples of situations in writing where the passive voice is preferred, or is it always verboten? Or, used in moderation, is it a style issue?

It's a style issue. This is where reading a lot of current fiction will help you. This is also where retyping published fiction will help you.

[James D Macdonald]

My inclination is to do the following: Use Trumble for all references, until my heroine is permitted to use Harry, then use Harry for the heroine’s and author’s POV, and only use Trumble in the other characters’ dialogue.

You might find it interesting to read <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192835092/ref=nosim/madhousemanor">The Karamazov Brothers<A> by Fyodor Dostoevsky. You'll find the characters calling one another by a wide variety of names, from very formal to very informal.

Have a plan, be consistent. Your readers are your friends.

[JuliePgh]

Everyone,

The theme from everyone definitely seems to be one of consistency. I’m striving to blend that consistency with what seems appropriate for the story. Thank you all for your advice and comments!
-------------------------------------------
Kate,

By “Author’s POV,” I mean the third person omniscient narrator.

The reason I had the author’s change in voice in reference to Harry:

My heroine (Kim) and the reader come to truly know Harry Trumble simultaneously with the change in how Sally refers to him (from Trumble to Harry). It ‘felt’ awkward after that to refer to the couple as Kim and Trumble in “their” scenes. On the other hand, I was worried about referring to him as Harry in scenes with the other characters who only “relate” to him as Trumble.

As I wrote my chapters, I found my 3rd person narrator referring to Harry in scenes involving Kim and Harry, and referring to Trumble in scenes involving Harry with the other characters. Concurrently, I don’t believe the shift has been confusing to the reader, but then again, I’m the omniscient and biased author serving as reader at this point. The true test will be when my beta readers attack my novel.

-----------------------------------------
Jim,

If The Karamazov Brothers is anything similar in style to Crime and Punishment, which I suspect it is, then I understand what you’re saying. I have to admit, while it’s been roughly 25 years since I read Crime and Punishment, I distinctly remember drawing a chart as I was reading to keep track of which name were used by each character in reference to the other characters! Despite how much I loved Crime and Punishment, I definitely won’t put my readers, or myself, through a complex maze of character names!

[macalicious731]

I have to admit, while it’s been roughly 25 years since I read Crime and Punishment, I distinctly remember drawing a chart as I was reading to keep track of which name were used by each character in reference to the other characters!

:lol Julie, I had to do that two years ago when I read it. I remember my lit. teacher at the time warning us in advance, yet I still couldn't help it and halfway through the book I thought, "Who the heck is THIS guy??" :eek

[James D Macdonald]

For what it's worth, Doyle and I did exactly the same trick with names in <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/TSAHEAD.HTM" target="_new">The Stars Asunder</a> and <a href="http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/awoshead.htm" target="_new">A Working of Stars</a>.

I kinda think it worked.

[JuliePgh]

Jim,
That's a comforting thought! Thank you!

[wwwatcher]

I just finished reading "Final Conflict: A Requiem for Boone" by Debra Doyle & James D. MacDonald and I remember noticing that the authors used the passive voice a little when they were describing scenes. (I hope I got the title right by the way.)

Just thought I'd throw in that piece of information for you Andrew.

Watcher:thumbs

[pencilone]

What do you guys think about speed writing?

I know that it's up to the individual preferences in the end, but has anyone found that it helps to write in short bursts of speed writing (let's say half an hour of writing very quickly about a specific subject, maybe even having some key words for start).

Writing in flow means that the Muse is next to you and she whispers into your ear... Is it possible to achive that by speed writing? Is the prose better, do we get in touch with the subcounscious easier?

Thanks,

Pencilone

[paritoshuttam]

Other famous books with confusion about the names of characters:

War and Peace. (Most big Russian novels would have this problem.) There are around 400 characters in all, and since each Russian name has three parts, and different people call the same person by different parts depending on their relationship.

One Hundred Years of Solitude. The names get repeated within generations, and with Garcia Marquez's style of jumping back and forth in time... the family tree at the end of the book is helpful.

The Sound and the Fury. Faulkner seems to revel doing this. One characer changes his name to another character's name midway in the book. That threw me off completely.

Sorry for the digression into reading from writing, but found this too interesting to skip.
- Paritosh.

[James D Macdonald]

What do you guys think about speed writing?

You mean <a href="http://www.writing-world.com/basics/block4.shtml" target="_new">this</a>?


Me, I'm a fast typist. I'm very much in favor of keeping your fingers moving on the keyboard at all times.

Generally speaking, anything that helps you get words on paper is a good thing.

[pencilone]

Spot on, Uncle Jim!

Thanks for the shortcut!:snoopy

Pencilone

[Fresie]

Most big Russian novels would have this problem

You bet they would. As a native Russian speaker, I think I have an explanation. The thing is, in the Russian language every name has dozens of variations, and a native speaker knows them all perfectly well. To a Russian reader, Anyuta, Nurka and Anna Petrovna are unmistakably the same person because it's all different versions of the same name (and naturally no writer would give the same name to two characters).

I don't think any Russian writer ever bothered to wonder if it would present a problem to an English-speaking reader. :) Talking about Dostoevsky, I'm yet to see a good (I'm not even talking about adequate) translation of any of his novels. Unfortunately, he's one of those writers where all the atmosphere gets lost in translation... :cry

[JuliePgh]

FYI,

For anyone reading prior posts, the links in Jim’s post 1012 (partically repeated below) have been changed since they've incrporated frames into their website. To reach the vocab lists for BIG WORDS, use this URL art3idea.ce.psu.edu:16080/art3/ (http://art3idea.ce.psu.edu:16080/art3/) then choose 'dictionary' in the left margin.


------------------------------------------------------------
from Jim's post 1012

Well, here are some vocabularly lists for y'all. If we want to think like artists, words give us the tools to think about our art. Here you go:

Big Words A to F

Big Words G to N

Big Words O to Z

Those lists by themselves are mind-expanding (and will give you a big edge while playing Scrabble, too).
-------------------------------------------------------

[JuliePgh]

I'm writing in the SF/F genre. I only have one person who reads the genre and is willing to read my novel. I woiuld like my husband to read the novel as well, but I'm not sure if his critique will be usefull or even damaging considering his lack of familiarity with SF/F.

My questions:

1) Is it best to only use beta readers familiar with the genre?
2) If beta readers outside the genre are used, should any prep work or guidelines be provided to 'explain' how the writing may differ from other genres?
3) As for beta readers of the genre, should any guidelines be provided (i.e. what they should look for or pay attention to)?

Comments, please. Thank you.

[James D Macdonald]

I'd take any beta readers I could get. Sometimes people who hate the genre will give you the best, most insightful comments.


I wouldn't prep them in any way. (You won't be prepping the readers in the bookstores, will you?)

The only guidelines I'd give them would be "please be honest."

Regardless of what they say, thank them. And mean it.

[Andrew Jameson]

I'm going to disagree with Uncle Jim a little. Readers of speculative fiction have a few different expectations than readers in other genres do, particularly about the way in which the inner workings of the world (the magic, or the science, and the society in which it works); the points of reference to the contemporary "real" world are fewer. Orson Scott Card in his How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/158297103X/ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-5479462-9090341?v=glance&s=books) explains this better and in more detail.

A non-SF/F reader might very well be confused at the pacing of the exposition (or perceived lack of exposition) where a more experienced speculative fiction reader wouldn't be. It seems to me that you might want to explain this to your husband (or let him read the appropriate part in Card's book). Hopefully that would avoid a situation where he gets confused and frustrated right at the beginning, which would color his perception of the rest of the book.

Of course, it goes without saying that you shouldn't prep him at all on how you arrange things, or what goes on, or why you did what you did, in your book, but it seems to me that a little prep on SF/F reader expectations would be beneficial.

[James D Macdonald]

If you're looking for readers outside of a narrowly defined genre, you have to look at all readers and all expectations. Think of Michael Crighton in contrast with Uncle Orson: Card's books may be objectively better SF, but Crighton reaches tons more readers.

[James D Macdonald]

Go, and write your book.

Do it now. Come back when you have ten original pages or two hours of new writing.

The reason we're called "writers" is because we write.

[Yeshanu]

O Great Cyber Guru:hail

Having completed nine pages in a little over two hours despite marauding cats, vomiting kid, and bothersome neighbour, I now feel qualified to post.

Thanks for the link on speed writing. I decided last night that since I seemed to be blocked at a particular point in my novel's second draft, I'd try to speedwrite an outline. I didn't get the whole thing done this morning, of course, but the hopeful part is that I got past the part where I am blocked. So now I'm going to go back, revise to that point, then speedwrite the next part of the outline.
But the speedwriting really did help