Like Tolkien? What an insult!

[Nateskate]

Before you over-react, let me say that being compared to Tolkien is the ultimate compliment to me.

But there is one critic, out of whose mouth this is nothing short of the worst insult. My youngest, "I want to be a Lawyer" son, is to me, like Denethor is to Faramir, a ruthlessly brutal critic.

I asked him to proof read a piece of fiction that I wrote, because, even though he is a nudge, he's a verbal genius. He stops at page five, and I asked him why. And he goes into a diatribe that I'm a Tolkien rip off.

My story isn't like what he wrote. That doesn't mean there are no common elements. In fact, I admittedly wrote this in a mythological format.

I won't even use the term "Ages", something I feel was ruthlessly borrowed from Tolkien's mythos. But Sherlock the Son sees through my thin disguise, and can see how anything, however remote, is a rip off of his ideas.

I've read where you want your worst critic to read your work, because they will be the most honest. I beg to differ. This is the same son who was pissed off at Peter Jackson for destroying LOTR, and couldn't see the Forest through the Trees, and that it was what it was, an entertaining movie. In fact, he was so po'd at Jackson, he wouldn't talk for the first five minutes after we left the theater. If I'm half the Hack that Peter Jackson is with my novel, I'll be satisfied.

With that said, maybe you can relate. Who is that one critic you can never ever please? Honestly, I doubt I'll ask him to read anything else.

[EGGammon]

My "best-friend." You can never trust friends and relatives. Most of them will say they like your stuff even if they don't, just to make you feel good. But in my case, your friends may actually like you stuff so much (or be jealous at how serious you are about writing) that they tell you it isn't good when it actually might be. The only people I trust to get opinions from are professionals.

[Nateskate]

Most of my life I didn't ask anyone to critique my writings, because they were serious in nature, not written for applause.

However, in attempting to be a real novelist, something I've never tried; I always assumed that I could be self-deluded, thinking I was better than I was. I didn't want to become the William Huang of the fiction world. Although he's a nice guy, he's not a talented singer.

So, when I got serious about writing fiction, I found several Beta Readers, hoping they'd stop my madness if that's what this desire was. However, I've been encouraged to go for it.

One is a Judge, who also happens to be a fiction lover.

Another is a professional, who owns a counseling center who is a Tolkien lover. Her husband was a former Newspaper editor, now business owner.

A third is an extremely well read business woman, who is not really a fantasy reader.

A fourth is a computer expert, fantasy lover.

In general, none of them are the type to suffer fools.

My son, however, has a critical bent to his personality. I don't know where it came from, but it's always been there. It's got nothing to do with this "fiction writing" though. Perhaps in the back of my mind, I believe that if I can sell him, I can sell anyone; which is why I'm disappointed with his comments.

[Jamesaritchie]

If it's a novel, I just write it and send it to my agent. If it's a short story or an article, I just write it and send it to an editor. I never saw the need to have anyone else read what I write.

It's my opinion that counts, and I'm the one who has to do the writing. Good writing doesn't come from committee, it comes getting whatever it is that's unique about yourself into your fiction.

If my own judgement isn't enough, the judgement of my agent and my editors certainly is.

[Karen Ranney]

I have this big sign on my bulletin board right next to my monitor. It reads: No one ever has to tell you when it's right!

I never let anyone see what I'm working on. It goes from me to my editor. Or from me to my agent. I don't believe in beta readers.

[Nateskate]

Well, I do admire confidence. And contrary to the fact that I am a door-checker, "Did I lock it?", I have taken a number of risks in life, stepping completely out of my comfort zone.

Then why subject myself to any scrutiny at all? Why not just go for it, and shoot, hoping something sticks to the wall?

The number one reason is "Time". I only have so much time, and I've got other options in life. If this is a dead end, then it was a terrible waste of valuable time and energy. Other doors are open that could close, and I've chosen to invest a great deal in this.

I can't afford to spend fifteen years hoping this isn't a dead end. As much as I loved the creative process, it is taxing spending hours a day either crafting what could be a monumental dead end hobby, as well as in trying to learn the system of getting published.

I've spent time on the front end (pre-submission) in trying to get it right. Honestly, if this story is a flop, I'm not planning another one. In my mind, it will be "It's not meant to be."

I'll still write again; perhaps I'll publish. But I'll stick to serious issues, in which case, publishing is a secondary consideration.

[mr mistook]

Obviously, your son is as much, or more of a Tolkein fan than you are. My guess is he's scrutinizing the work for any whisp of a resemblance to Tolkein, because he know's they're there somewhere. He's probably seeing things that nobody else would notice, and maybe a few that don't even exist.

Especially when you get into the world of Myth / Collective Unconscious Symbolism - It's ridiculously easy to stumble on themes that are already out there in a hundred other fairy tales and fantasy stories.

I mean... who's Tolkien anyway? Just a guy who "ripped-off" a thousand other legends.

Anyway, I think I know what you're going through, because I get the same stuff from my brothers and my friends. They all feel like it's their responsibility to pan everything I create. I don't take it too hard anymore because it always turns out that five years later, they'll suddenly love the stuff.

For them, for your son, it's like a form of shock. Your "forest for the trees" analogy is right on the mark. When something you create is brand spanking new - He's going to come to it with a preconceived notion, and look to fit that template over what's there.

I only have so much time, and I've got other options in life. If this is a dead end, then it was a terrible waste of valuable time and energy.

You can't look at it that way. If you really want to be a novelist, then the time you spent is an investment on the future. Even if the book flops, it's not a dead end, because of everything you've learned that can be put toward writing a better novel. Perseverence pays dividends. You're only a failure if you give up.

I sense you really want this. You wouldn't be here if you didn't want to publish a novel. So don't give up!

[maestrowork]

I have the fortune of having a highly critical friend (he's a journalist). When he's wrong, I'm able to tell him "I disagree." When he's right, though, he's absolutely right. So I take his crit very seriously. It's also good to hear him say things like: "You intimidate me."

:D

[Nateskate]

You are right Mr Mistook, my son is loyal to Tolkien.

I've taken a crash course on Tolkien after LOTR, reading his biography, letters, LOTR, Silmarillion, Parts of Lost Tales and on and on. I have Shipley's books...maps...etc, probably fifteen or more books. The point is, I now know Tolkien better than my son knows Tolkien.

However, what my son fails to realize is that I never read a single piece of Tolkien around the time when the Two Towers came out.

My fantasy is based upon two stories that I wrote. One is an allegory, the other a young adult's story written with my children in mind. They were both written around 1995.

The one story was called, "Damileji" an Island, which was written for friends at work. And I took the names of our children and combined them for the Title of the story. "Dave, Mike, Leah, and Jim". It's pronounced, Dam-a-lee-gee.

Since both were written before I had an Inkling about Tolkien, the core of the story was set in stone. However, I see where he get's his ideas from.

But let me say this, Tolkien himself wrote on "Fairy" or I think he spelled it "Faery?" In it he states that every mythology borrows something from what has already been written, and he uses the illustration of a large pot of stew. We all draw from the same common elements, only adding some of our own spices to them.

He didn't make up little people. Gulliver's travels, Munchkins in Oz, and a host of other stories already had little people in them.

But in my mind, most successful fantasy draws from four major elements to some degree. 1) Messianic themes. 2) Apocalyptic themes. 3) Neopagan themes-including dracula...etc. 4) Ancient Greek and Norse mythology, including dragon lore.

Tolkein borrows these, as did the Arthur Legends. Almost evey one of the major successful fantasy stories takes some of these elements.

I use a great deal of Number 2) but phrased much of it in a mythological text. Tolkien did the same thing in the Silmarillion. I wanted to avoid having a Messianic figure in my story. Tolkien didn't have one, he had three. If you take Frodo-bears the cross. If you take Gandalf-dies to save his friends, and rises from the dead. If you look at Aragorn, he was the prophesied savior king, who goes through death "Paths of the dead", returns from the paths of death to lead a victory, and then comes into the house of healing with healing in his hands.

Oh my, "Tolkien was a rip off artist! He stole not only from Norse and Greek Mythology, but shamefully from the Old and New Testaments!"

That's how my son would have seen Tolkien, if he were Tolkien's kid. "You aren't going to release LOTR are you?" You stole from the Wizard of Oz, and used Munchkins. You think that's going to pass the mustard just because you gave them hairy feet and a pipe!

[mr mistook]

But in my mind, most successful fantasy draws from four major elements to some degree. 1) Messianic themes. 2) Apocalyptic themes. 3) Neopagan themes-including dracula...etc. 4) Ancient Greek and Norse mythology, including dragon lore.


Messianic themes go back to the dawn of recorded history. In Egypt, the god Horus died and rose again. His evil nemisis was Seth. He wasn't much different from Satan. Apocalyptic themes - same story. Paganism pretty much covers everything outside monotheism (except Buddhism - but that's not a religion, it's a philosophy.) The Chinese had dragons, as did everybody else.

This stuff just goes round and round forvever. It's all part of the universe of human imagination. Jung's archtypes, Freud's dream symbolism, I-Ching, Tarot, Spider Man. It's all the same stuff!

Not to say people should ever quit articulating these stories. These are deep, inexhaustible themes. Every person, generation, and civilization has a new angle on this stuff. Why do they keep lumping Sci-Fi and Fantasy together? Because Science is more or less exactly the same as magic, and the future is the same as the past.

You stole from the Wizard of Oz, and used Munchkins. You think that's going to pass the mustard just because you gave them hairy feet and a pipe!

Well where did Wizard get it from? Little people (even ones with hairy feet) go back to forever. Snow White? The Shoemaker and the Elves? Santa? Keebler Cookies? You can go round and round with this stuff.

[sc211]

Arnold Newman was one of the best portrait photographers of the last century. Truman, Kennedy, Picasso, Marilyn Monroe, Stravinksy... he did them all and became one of the most sought-after photographers in the world.

But when trying to photograph his own children? Forget it. They wouldn't listen to him at all.

[Man with twohanded sword]

He may be a Tolkien fan, but does he otherwise read Fantasy fiction?

Without that context, more or less any fantasy could seem like a Tolkien rip off, just as any space opera could look like a Starwars rip off.

Suggest you relegate your son to reading for continuity and copy, and find more useful test readers. Better yet, find yourself a decent writers group to workshop your stuff.

Best wishes
MwTHS

[Nateskate]

My son is both a Sci Fi and Fantasy lover. He's read all of the Chronicles of Narnia, all of the Star Wars books...etc.

But there are reasons why I take his comments with a grain of salt. He has a peculiar way of seeing life period, and always had. He's got a good heart, but he's extremely opinionated on everything, in fact argumentative.

I'm going to take a shot at submitting a short to a fantasy magazine. I say "Short" in that it's not a full length book. But it's at a length where only a handful of a magazines would consider it. Considering its borderline in length, I may get comments like "Shorten it", although I'd rather "Lengthen it" into a two parter.

I'm wondering if there is a downside of posting part of it here? People can form their own opinions, but I'd suspect that most people, if they saw elements of Tolkien...etc, they wouldn't be disappointed.

My only concern is whether that would be a problem for a magazine publisher, knowing that a portion of the the story was on a website?

[Jamesaritchie]

When you get right down to it, what doesn't matter, and how is everything. In other words, it doesn't matter what you write about, it doesn't matter where you get the ideas, and it doesn't matter whether you take from Tolkien or not. All that matters is how well you do the job.

If you're writing teh story well enough, if you're putting whatever it is that's unique about yourself into the story, and if you're adding something new to the mix, you aren't ripping anyone off, no matter what the plot is, or who the characters are.

As for letting other read it, this just seems to slow things down and cause problems. I never have bought into the notion that a writer can't tell what's right or wrong with his own work. If this were true, an awfully large bunch of writers, particularly pre-internet writers, never would have become so famous.

I've found almost everyone reads a manuscript based on personal like and dislike, and this is the worst possible way to read a manuscript. If you give almost anyone a manuscript to read they will find things to complain about, even if no problems exist.

If you don;t believe me, find some published short stories, type them up in manuscript form, stick your own name on them, and give them to some beta readers. Odds are the list of complaints you get back will be a yard long.

I've found good agents and editor don't read things the same way. They look at a manuscript with publishability and marketability in mind, and when they see a flaw, it's real. They don't ask for changes because of like or dislike, but simply because something works or it doesn't.

The internet is a wonderful thing, but I think, because of the ease with which manuscripts can be e-mailed back and forth, it has fostered the belief that you have to let others read your manuscript, and it just ain't so.

[Nateskate]

I agree with you to a point. I've written a number of articles, which were primarily public domain, although I've been told to publish them. I didn't ask anyone's opinions about them. When I write about serious matter, that I believe in, I'm rather confident, and unappologetic.

So, I'm not afraid to express my views, or take public scrutiny on what I believe.

This is different. From my perspective, it was simply a matter of wisdom. Do I feel comfortable expressing myself? Absolutely. However, if I was a "pitchy" singer, with a limited range, who sounds half-decent in a room full of drunk friends, that doesn't mean I'm ready for American Idol.

In reality, I'm a horrible singer, one whose voice brings children to tears, and not tears of joy.

In a literary sense; if I can write meaningful serious matter, that doesn't mean I'm capable of writing with the big boys and girls, when it comes to serious fiction.

We aren't talking about a single story here; but a major project. I needed some feedback; because I look at this as more than a hobby, but less than a sure thing.

We're talking about several hours a day since this project started. I've got a full time job. I'm involved in a number of other important endeavors. Again, if this is simply a "hobby", which will lead to some vanity Christmas gift to my friends, then I'm fully wasting precious hours on the wrong thing.

So, It was important for me to get visceral feedback.

If you look at Tolkien; he didn't simply write books. He wrote at an extremely important moment in human history. His book may be entertaining, but they are also very deep. He expressed remorse at what he saw as negative changes in the world, he expresses his hopes, and much of his own values, although not in a preachy way.

He is insightful about humans. His portrayal of Eowyn, facing loss after loss, throwing all of her hopes into Aragorn, and coming to the point of wanting to throw her life away when he leaves her for the paths of the dead, is extremely insightful about human nature.

My goal is to entertain, but not simply entertain. Rather, I spent hours crafting insights into this story, in the hopes that some readers are touched deeply, and in a good way.

With so much invested, I simply wanted to get some feedback whether I was barking up the wrong tree. This is a "multi" book project.

[mr mistook]

...I've found almost everyone reads a manuscript based on personal like and dislike, and this is the worst possible way to read a manuscript...

I've found good agents and editor don't read things the same way. They look at a manuscript with publishability and marketability in mind, and when they see a flaw, it's real.

Actually, the only place I've ever shown a part of my WIP is here in the "Share Your Work" forum, where I felt I got some very constructive feedback that didn't have much at all to do with whether or not they liked it.

I really like when Preyer goes through my stuff (or anybody's stuff) What's happened to that guy lately? I never see him out here. Maestro's also very good at giving technical advice. So is Reph. I think I'd pay to have these three as beta readers (but don't get your hopes up guys, I'm pretty broke at the moment :( )

I agree with you, James, that deep down every writer knows whether or not there are problems with the work, but for me, just learning the ropes and struggling to find my 'voice', there are times when I don't know exactly what is wrong.

One day, I'm sure I'll hit a plateau, after which feedback during the writing process will be a waste of time - because I'll either be publishable, or time will have proven that I'll just never have "IT" when it comes to fiction.

[mr mistook]

Do I feel comfortable expressing myself? Absolutely. However, if I was a "pitchy" singer, with a limited range, who sounds half-decent in a room full of drunk friends, that doesn't mean I'm ready for American Idol.

Yeah, but pitchy singers who audition for idol, never torture themselves with self-scrutiny the way you do.

Anyway, you've stated that you don't want this project to end up as a vanity Christmas present for your friends. Well... then stop writing it with those friends in mind. The rest of the world doesn't know how long this is taking you, and if you're rejected, the rest of the world will never know it.

If your friends think you're silly for wasting so much time - well, are they really your friends? But even if they are, do they have the guts to undertake such a task and put it all on the line?

But, I think if you're like me - it's only your own inner demons that are dogging you through this process. Screw them.

[maestrowork]

As for letting other read it, this just seems to slow things down and cause problems. I never have bought into the notion that a writer can't tell what's right or wrong with his own work. If this were true, an awfully large bunch of writers, particularly pre-internet writers, never would have become so famous.


I disagree. I think all writers should have at least one or two betas, someone they can trust, to read their work. Writers are TOO close to their works to tell what doesn't work (it's easier to see what works). I'm speaking from experience here.

Also, famous writers also have betas. Stephen King's wife is his most critical reader. Grisham's wife is also very critical -- she'd tell him point blank what simply doesn't work. Both of them became famous before the Internet (heck, King became famous before the PC!)

I don't see the process as slowing the writer down. I see it as sanity and reality check. The trick is to find someone you really trust and who can really give you unbiased feedback, whether or not he or she reads the genres you write.

[macalicious731]

Nate, I think you've just encountered the first taste of what every fantasy writer has ever heard before.

It had to happen sometime.

[Nateskate]

Isn't it absurd to be held to such a standard, to have nothing but completely origional thoughts that no one ever thought of before. Even then, you wouldn't be origional, you'd be Yoko Ono or Frank Zappa.

Space ships in a story? Planets? All been done before, why bother! Monsters, come on already!

Nateskate is a rip off artist. He started out of the womb, when he started ripping off the English language from his mother. It was all down hill from there. Sure, he made up a few words and novel ideas.

Why, he'd be better off taking a white sheet of paper and putting a whiter dot in the corner, and see if anyone notices. Words on paper? That's all been done before, how unorigional is that!

[detante]

Take a deep breath and count to ten, Nate. Feel better? No? Then do it again until you do.

Chill out. There's nothing new under the sun. We all know it. We're all just snake oil salesman trying to package grain alcohol as a cure-all. It's all about the presentation.

You sound very bitter about your son's comments. I understand that it bugs you. It bugs all of us when it happens. But before we can completely dismiss our critics as uninformed boobs, it's worth considering the possibility, no matter how remote, that the critic might have a point, no matter how small. We don't have to admit it to anyone, least of all the uninformed boob, that they made us blink.

Best of luck,
Jen

[Nateskate]

I've pondered his comments between the lines, and have taken them seriously.

Chill out? Me? Hmmm, I was never very good at that. Some of the comments needed a smile icon:D

On the whole, I believe in what I'm doing, and took his remarks with a grain of salt, other than the fact that he is pretty predictable in that he never prefaces an insult with a compliment, and in my case, never fails to comment.

I thought it would be an interesting thread topic more than a need to rant. I love my son, and we do get along very well most of the time.

[mr mistook]

Isn't it absurd to be held to such a standard, to have nothing but completely origional thoughts that no one ever thought of before.


Well, as the old Copyright mantra tells us, "It's the expression not the idea."

Originality is in the expression. If the government granted legal rights to the 'ideas' of registrants, the rest of us would become criminals in about a week.

There is infinite room for originality in expression. You draw from the same old pool of human symbols and ideas and you present whatever it is you've constructed in whatever way seems novel.

But in the universe of unique expressions, we dig ourseves into ruts. We have genre's and styles, and fashions, and the temptation is to adhere to these fanciful trends. Buck the trend and risk being shunned. Follow it too closely, and risk being called a hack, or a rip-off.

And of course there's a universe of subtleties involved in every expression, and in every reception of these expressions, and it seems like madness sometimes, but the truth is that this is how we build a rational world out of the madness that is human experience.

[Man with twohanded sword]

Some interesting responses here. I agree you shouldn't write with your friends in mind (unless they represent your target audience). It's also paralysing to show your stuff to the wrong people.

However, my own experience is that most authors really can't see what's wrong with their works, at least not without a lengthy languish in the sock draw.

(My theory:
What you write expresses and forms your artistic vision. After a few drafts/passes, the vision is fully formed and the words on paper become an mneumonic - they merely trigger the vision, which then obscures the text!

The reader, on the other hand, has to get to the vision via the words. If the words don't work, they flounder and put the book down.)

I think the trick is to find people to read your work who think like editors or publishers. The best place to find these people is in a good workshop, e.g. as described in www.sfwa.org/writing/critiquing.html (http://www.sfwa.org/writing/critiquing.html)

And here's an example of a useful critique:
www.hatrack.com/writingcl...1-17.shtml (http://www.hatrack.com/writingclass/lessons/1998-11-17.shtml)

[Nateskate]

I appreciate the links and have added them to favorites.

For the most part, I agree with people here. I believe the proverb, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend..."

A person who will not tell you your faults, for fear of hurting your feelings is not doing you a favor or being a friend. Obviously, you don't want to be obtuse and rip someone's heart out in criticism. And you must always take criticism in a context, especially when it comes to art. I loved the Beatles, some people didn't like the Beatles, and you weren't going to convert them. I remember one critic panning Abby Road, which is perhaps the best Album ever done by other people's standards. The point is that you can't please everyone.

But since this has somewhat been about "My" motivations for letting my son or others read my works, it is not from a professional standpoint. In other words, I'm not claiming this to be the wisest course of action from a pro writer.

Rather, it was simply a part of my own mental screening process. When I wrote this story, it was somewhat of baking a pie. Publishing it was an afterthought. I can play guitar, I can write. I've used those gifts to entertain others, and to benefit others. I've played live; done studio work; contributed songs to other people's recordings. I've written and performed on charity projects. But the first time I ever recorded, I was out of my comfort zone. It was in the late seventies, and it was costing between 50-100 dollars an hour. I did take after take, punching in edits, because of lack of confidence.

It's one thing to play guitar in your bedroom, it's another thing to play before thousands of people. But I will say this. As much as I know that I can play well, and have been compared most often to David Gilmor of Pink Floyd, although I prefer Stevie Ray Vaughn, I still thrive on other people's feedback. I like to know that I wasn't buried in the mix,and someone in the audience could hear what I was playing.

Likewise, I've written in various formats. I've written for public consumption. I've spoken before relatively large audiences. So, I'm not afraid of exposure or communication.

But as far as fiction, I was a bedroom guitarist. I had a relatively small public that enjoyed my writing. It's another thing to want to take that to another level and publish.

Call it insecurity, or a need for encouragement in what has turned into a long process, but I felt a need for feedback. Again, I saw this not as a hobby, because it is too long and demanding to be a hobby, but as a major investment of my time, and I was determined from the outset, that if I was over-estimating my abilities, I'd rather know that up front.

And I've gotten much valuable feedback. One person read the book, loved it, said send it in and let the editor fix what needs to be fixed. I simply thought it was bad advice. I knew I needed to do major edits. From the feedback I've gotten, they've absolutely loved certain parts, but other parts were weak. I could tell, because they went through the good portions very quickly, and the feedback was instantaneous. However, I knew before they said a word that other parts needed to be fixed or eliminated. Why? Slow feedback. If they had to trudge through a part, I knew it wasn't what it needed to be. And I'd have to coax out of them what didn't work for them.

So, I realized that I couldn't afford to have them read three chapters, thinking this was a classic, and then get so gummed up in chapters four and five that they threw the book under the bed to never see the light of day again.

My interpretation? I have a gift to write. I'm not deluding myself about that. But that gift is not perfected, but in some cases raw and still developing. But I can't afford to be inconsistent at this point, because this first book can't be an experiment. So, I have to focus more attention on making sure that the narrative and dialog are balanced. I need to trim parts, and re-write others.

Another reason is because I'm not simply writing an entertaining book. I've taken the risk of writing a deep book as well. I purposely chose two of the most insightful people that I know to look at the book, because I knew they'd be honest with me and let me know if that was bogging the book down too much.

I'm not only stepping out of my own safety zone, but in a sense it was like the Beatles changing direction in mid stream. Some people opposed their decision to be experimental, and yet they went from writing trivial songs to songs that caused people to think and ponder, whether or not you agreed with their ponderings. However, I'm not a famous author who is trying something unique. I'm a nobody trying something unique. Considering the time I'm investing, I just hoped my friends would have the decency to tell me if I had egg on my face before I made that public knowledge.