Forgivable?

[althrasher]

OK, I have a very action-based sequence, and in the midst of that is a sentence that ends with a preposition. If I try to re-word it, it sounds very clunky and breaks up the scene. Is it OK? If not, any suggestions?

The two ignored her. Waren fought with a fierce intensity, with skills learned from living on the streets. Zeroun didn’t have such experiences to draw from. Alexia hoped he’d be alright...someone kicked her in the back, rolling her forward.

[scarletpeaches]

Zeroun didn't have such experiences from which to learn?

[Shady Lane]

You could always just have "Zeroun didn't have such experiences."

I'm basically a Nazi about sentences ending in prepositions. This doesn't make my skin crawl, but I'm not real pleased about it.

[althrasher]

To me it sounds like that breaks it up...if it doesn't to you, you're less baised than I am. What do you think?

[althrasher]

You could always just have "Zeroun didn't have such experiences."

I'm basically a Nazi about sentences ending in prepositions. This doesn't make my skin crawl, but I'm not real pleased about it.

Without that, would the reader still make the connection that lack of experience would cause Zeroun to be weaker? Or would it just seem like an out of place phrase?

[reenkam]

If it's an action-based sequence I don't think I would stop to stare at the preposition. I don't know how agents/editors would feel about it, but I personally think that sometimes you just have to end in a prep. if that's the only way it happens to work well. I don't use that rule for academic writing, or anything like that, but I think in the middle of an action-sequence in fiction it'd be okay...

but that's just mho

[Esopha]

What if you completely revise the sentence? Something like 'Zeroun - Zeroun knew nothing about fighting.'

Now, I'm enamoured of hyphens myself, so take that into consideration. I think the main problem with the sentence isn't the hanging preposition, but the fact that it seems out of place in an action-packed scene.

[althrasher]

What if you completely revise the sentence? Something like 'Zeroun - Zeroun knew nothing about fighting.'

Now, I'm enamoured of hyphens myself, so take that into consideration. I think the main problem with the sentence isn't the hanging preposition, but the fact that it seems out of place in an action-packed scene.

I, too, am a hyphen fan. That might work, actually. What about, "streets. Zeroun lived in the suburbs, he knew nothing about fighting...Alexia hoped he'd be alright..."

Better?

[Esopha]

I like that a lot more. The only thing is, I'd make the first ellipse a period, but that may just be me.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

OK, I have a very action-based sequence, and in the midst of that is a sentence that ends with a preposition. If I try to re-word it, it sounds very clunky and breaks up the scene. Is it OK? If not, any suggestions?

The two ignored her. Waren fought with a fierce intensity, with skills learned from living on the streets. Zeroun didn’t have such experiences to draw from. Alexia hoped he’d be alright...someone kicked her in the back, rolling her forward.


I will say if you hadn't bolded the 'from', I would never have thought there was a problem. Personally, I think your sentence is okay.

[althrasher]

Thanks for the help everyone! I think I'm going to make it as it is in Post #8, if you're curious. (Have I mentioned I LOVE this forum?)

[nevada]

You know what Churchill said about not ending a sentence with a preposition? "That's something i will not up with put." Relax. Sometimes a sentence ends with a preposition. And sometimes you start a sentence with a conjunction. The grammar nazis won't come and take you away. I think. :)

[maddythemad]

Is "though shalt not end sentences with a preposition" really a rule? I always thought it was something junior high teachers made you memorize, but was otherwise basically pointless. I mean, is something like, "Shelly turned the music on" really incorrect?

[ChaosTitan]

The grammar nazis won't come and take you away. I think. :)

I hope not, or I'm screwed. :D

[Andre_Laurent]

Sometimes that nasty prep just works best...don't stress over it.

[reenkam]

Is "though shalt not end sentences with a preposition" really a rule? I always thought it was something junior high teachers made you memorize, but was otherwise basically pointless. I mean, is something like, "Shelly turned the music on" really incorrect?


Well, I'd say "Shelly turned on the music." But that's just me...

But I don't mind sentences ending in prepositions, really. Unless it's really, really unnecessary. Like in "Where'd you go to?" The "to" isn't needed at all...that's when I get annoyed.

[ClaudiaGray]

I agree that sometimes the twists and turns necessary to avoid ending a sentence with a preposition simply aren't worthwhile. If you can avoid it, do; if not, don't sweat it.

I'm writing in first-person right now, and I am finding that I am doing this a little more often, simply because it's more important to retain a conversational rhythm to the MC's speech.

[katiemac]

I'll agree that avoiding the preposition can make for terrible structures. But the reason not to end sentences with prepositions is, at least from my perspective, that most structures put the emphasis of the sentence at the end.

So, where possible, you want to avoid wasting that emphasis on meaningless words like prepositions.

[Willowmound]

OK, I have a very action-based sequence, and in the midst of that is a sentence that ends with a preposition. If I try to re-word it, it sounds very clunky and breaks up the scene. Is it OK? If not, any suggestions?


Don't be crazy. For f**ks sake. Writing well is about writing well. It's not about writing gramatically correct.

Leave that to teachers.

[Willowmound]

You know what Churchill said about not ending a sentence with a preposition? "That's something i will not up with put." Relax.

He said, "That is something up with which I will not put."

That is gramatically correct. It is also a terrible sentence.

[Stijn Hommes]

Like everything else, it's not an absolute rule. In some instances ending with a preposition can be fine, in fact, some regional varieties of English prefer it.

Don't get stuck on a little rule.

[NeuroFizz]

Who is your POV character in this scene? In four sentences, it seems you are in three heads, or at least you have a narrator who knows the thoughts and past actions of the three characters. Is this voice consistent throughout the entire story?

[Azraelsbane]

In my opinion, sentence flow is more important than this prep rule. I wouldn't make it a habit, but no one is going to reject your manuscript because you ended 1 or 2 sentences with a prep. However, they might reject it if you reword all your sentences in the more formal way that saves the prep at the end nightmare but makes it sound like you came straight from a BBC news broadcast. ;)

[job]

Zeroun didn’t have such experiences to draw from.

You should probably have popped this question into the grammar section where folks who know grammar hang out.


1) The mantra your High School teacher chanted about not ending sentences with prepositions is nonsense. Careful English speakers end sentences with prepostions all the time. Have done for centuries.

This is another of the weirdly inappropriate rules Latin scholars tried to foist onto English in the late Nineteenth century. Like not splitting infinities.

Forget it and move on with your life.


2) You aren't ending the sentence with a preposition.
I'd call 'draw from' a phrasal verb.
(In this usage where it is figurative. Not when it is used literally.)
A transitive one, which is why you found it confusing.

Other examples of phrasal verbs are: cop out, come across, mess up, take off (as in an airplane,) take after (resemble,) get over, count on, look at, listen to, give up, get away with, put up with, look into (investigate.)

So. It is perfectly correct to say --
"The derigible took off."
The predicate is the whole phrase, 'took off'.
and 'off' is part of the verb. It is not a prepostion.


Phrasal verbs can be spotted because they don't like to be split apart.

Consider intervening words placed between an ordinary verb and the following preposition.

I tinkered endlessly with the ensuing madness.
George put the severed head up in the attic.
Marian gave pink tickets to all the expensive cars.


Compare this with words placed in the middle of a phrasal verb.

Jeremy copped in a cowardly fashion out.
The Mole got with a light sentence off.
I have a number of sources to draw engagingly from for inspiration.
Cyrus hung with the other mavens out, in the grammar section.


Any grammar book will give you the skinny on this.

[reenkam]

Wow, great post job. I always kind of wondered about those kinds of verbs and how stuff like that was supposed to be handled, but I usually just ignored it.

Great info!

[Saundra Julian]

You see it in the novels of "super stars" all the time. Not often but it's there.

[Maryn]

To me, it's got a lot to do with narrative voice. Would your narrating character, whoever it is, be a grammar stickler? Let him or her speak naturally. You're not going to lose a book sale if your strong narrative voice incorporates grammar goofs. It might even seem deliberate. Absolutely flawless grammar which sometimes sounds stiff or awkward, and causes inconsistent narrative voice, could cost you a sale.

I'd be more concerned about the POV problem NeuroFizz mentioned, and the use of alright, which is not considered fully acceptable spelling by everybody everywhere, although it's moving in that direction.

Maryn, noting that Firefox's new spell checker accepts it

[Bufty]

I agree with NeuroFizz. The lack of a clear POV, and pronoun overuse, make the paragraph unclear and hard to rewrite in isolation, but one thing you could do is simply cut the words you are worrying about - or 'about which you are worrying', if you prefer. ;) Hint, hint. I've put them in bold. [Edited to add - I've also just noticed Shady Lane said the same thing - apologies SL.]

And, if rewording makes it clunky and breaks up the scene, then you obviously haven't reworded it properly, have you?

OK, I have a very action-based sequence, and in the midst of that is a sentence that ends with a preposition. If I try to re-word it, it sounds very clunky and breaks up the scene. Is it OK? If not, any suggestions?

The two ignored her. Waren fought with a fierce intensity, with skills learned from living on the streets. Zeroun didn’t have such experiences to draw from. Alexia hoped he’d be alright...someone kicked her in the back, rolling her forward.

[janetbellinger]

I think it's okay but if you're worried, you could change it to Zeroun didn't have any such experiences from which to draw.

[althrasher]

Who is your POV character in this scene? In four sentences, it seems you are in three heads, or at least you have a narrator who knows the thoughts and past actions of the three characters. Is this voice consistent throughout the entire story?

I don't think it's quite as much head-hopping as it seems from this one paragraph...I've had several people read the ms, and no one has made any comment about head-hopping (people who would know to look for it.)



2) You aren't ending the sentence with a preposition.
I'd call 'draw from' a phrasal verb.
(In this usage where it is figurative. Not when it is used literally.)
A transitive one, which is why you found it confusing.


This is great info! Thanks a lot!

[althrasher]

I'd be more concerned about the POV problem NeuroFizz mentioned, and the use of alright, which is not considered fully acceptable spelling by everybody everywhere, although it's moving in that direction.


I have never heard this "alright" controversy.

[c.e.lawson]

OK, I have a very action-based sequence, and in the midst of that is a sentence that ends with a preposition. If I try to re-word it, it sounds very clunky and breaks up the scene. Is it OK? If not, any suggestions?

The two ignored her. Waren fought with a fierce intensity, with skills learned from living on the streets. Zeroun didn’t have such experiences to draw from. Alexia hoped he’d be alright...someone kicked her in the back, rolling her forward.

If you are in the midst of action, then I would tighten it up a bit. Get rid of your problem sentence all together - it breaks up the flow. Here's an ex:

The two ignored her. Waren fought with a fierce intensity, with skills learned from living on the streets - skills which Zeroun lacked. Alexia hoped Zeroun would be all right...someone kicked her in the back, rolling her forward.

[raydad]

I agree with c.e.--tighten it up--more like this:

The two ignored her. Waren fought with fierce intensity, with skills learned from the streets--skills Zeroun lacked. Alexia hoped Zeroun would be alright . . . someone kicked her in the back, rolling her forward.

Drop the extra words "a" in "with a fierce intensity", "which" and "learned from". Also use the "em" dash instead of a hypen. Ending with a preposition would be just fine--but loses the punch here. Also, "all right" can have two meanings--whereas "alright" is perfectly fine in fiction--but your grammar teacher wouldn't like it.

[blacbird]

The "never end a sentence with a preposition" dictum is the creation of a 19th-Century grammarian (?Dryden), who adored the formality of Latin constructions and wanted to impose similar formality on the sloppy, adaptive English language. It has no organic basis in the evolution of English, and you'll find any number of excellent writers, both past and present, who ignore it.

caw

[nevada]

He said, "That is something up with which I will not put."

That is gramatically correct. It is also a terrible sentence.


Thank you. I always get it jumbled in my head. lol Actually, lots of things get jumbled in my head, but let's not talk about that.