Songs in Novels

[Stephania]

Ciao,
Maybe I'm not asking the question right in search and what I'm trying to find out is the following:

I'm making an outline for another novel and I want to have a few old and new songs (5 in total and very important for the story) in the novel. Am I allowed to write the title of the song? A couple of lyrics of the song? May I also announce the singers name?

Where do I find, or how do I find the answers?

Many thanks,
S

[blacbird]

Titles are okay, names of artists are okay, but lyrics are almost certainly protected by copyright, unless the song is very old. U.S. copyright statutes protect everything published after 1922. There are a number of relatively recent threads here discussing this issue.

caw

[sassandgroove]

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=657721&postcount=9

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60397&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29041&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40846&highlight=song+lyrics

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37802&highlight=song+lyrics

[sassandgroove]

I would suggest not using real songs. The reader won't get the same meaning from the songs that you do. Plus it will date the story. If you offer a mere suggestion of a song (rather than naming a specific song.) or reference a fictional song and ascribe the meaning you want to convey, I think the story would work better. When I tried to add pop culture to my story it just came across as forced, and when I changed it and made up the culture for the story it came across as believable. That's not to say it can't be done. Take High Fidelity for example. But it is still dated. And I didn't get half the references. So make sure if you 'must' use the songs that those people who don't know the songs get why you are referencing them.

[BlueBadger]

I agree, nothing dates a story faster than a song ... unless, of course, you're writing a story that's supposed to take place in the 70s or whenever.

Stephen King exploited "Don't Fear the Reaper" for The Stand, and even though it fits the subject matter remarkably well, it kind of has a hokey feeling to it all these years later.

(It doesn't help that the story was originally written in the 70s and then "re-written" for the 90s with some sloppy errors. Still a great book, though.)

[BlueTexas]

Stephen King exploited "Don't Fear the Reaper" for The Stand, and even though it fits the subject matter remarkably well, it kind of has a hokey feeling to it all these years later.



I didn't think it was hokey. But maybe I'm just old :)

I think if you're going to use a song, it had better be very well known. There was a thread last week about this, where someone used a Stones song. A lot of people didn't get the reference, which was shocking to me, but also informative.

[katiemac]

Truth is, songs mean different things to everyone. The emotion you want to convey in your story by using them is very rarely going to resonate the same emotion with your readers. If possible, it's better to get those emotions to appeal through your writing, then everyone understands.

And yes, if you do a quick search for "songs" or check out the Novel FAQ stickied above, then you'll find a lot more threads on this topic. Good luck!

[sassandgroove]

That's the point. That Stones song is well known. No matter how well known a song is, there will be people who don't know it.

[sassandgroove]

HAZZAH! I found it. Read Hapisofi's post #7. I bookmarked it this time! She shows a fine example not only of why not to but HOW.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18054&highlight=song

[maestrowork]

I agree with Sass and Katie... as much as you think the songs are PERFECT for your story (trust me, I know -- I've done that myself), they mean different things to different people and also if the readers are not familiar with the songs, they will likely go, "Huh? You're dragging things out..." or they will skip the lyrics anyway.

You're also likely to date your story, unless they're time appropriate (it's the sixties and your characters are listening to the Beatles) or if the songs are classics anyway.

If you just mention the titles, don't make a big deal of it. If your readers know the song, they will hopefully "get it." If not, no big loss.

It really does mean more to the author than the readers.

Now, if it does evoke some particular emotions for the CHARACTER, it might be worth pointing out. However, like other symbolism or "dream sequences" that are supposed to reveal the character's psyche, these things are more abstract and subjective. Again, they probably mean more to the author than to the readers, so use them wisely.

[Beware_of_Italics]

But in my book, the lyrics are evoking emotions from a character, which I regard as an entirely different matter.

That's the boat I'm in as well. It hurts to have to take those lyrics out, so I guess I'll find another way around it. All I know is that that particular song's message has to be worked into the story b/c it's a reflection of this one character. That scene worked so well with the lyrics. Those few lyrics - whether readers knew the song or not - would "get it" immediately. I'll find a way to mend it though. ;)

[Jamesaritchie]

I used four lyric snippets from four different songs in my completed novel. Possibly I may eliminate 3 of them (or maybe not) but one is utterly indispensable, and if I have to buy the permission, so be it.

As for using songs to evoke moods and or emotions, it's quite true that those will vary from reader to reader. But in my book, the lyrics are evoking emotions from a character, which I regard as an entirely different matter.

I've heard suggestions to compose your own lyrics. That's a splendid idea... if you happen to be a lyricist. If not, they are unlikely to turn out well, and might possibly be laughably terrible. Me, I wouldn't dream of trying. I have no problem accepting my own limitations. :)

Even if you are able to buy permission, which can sometimes cost many thousands of dollars, there's still a chance the publisher won't want it in the novel for a variety of reasons.

[johnzakour]

Besides the obviously legal ramifications I just can't understand why writers would want SOMEBODY ELSE'S words in their novels.

But that's just me.

Using Lyrics in books has been covered A LOT here.

It's hard and expensive to do, doesn't add nearly as much to the story as you think and your publisher will most likely edit out any song lyrics.

Still, if you want to try it go ahead and try it.

[johnzakour]

I truly believe one thing newer writers tend to forget is that, even though you need to write books that you yourself would enjoy reading, you are (hopefully) not going to be the only one reading your books. You do have to please yourself but you also have to keep your readers in mind. Just because you think something is the best thing since sliced bread, doesn't mean your readers will.

I almost used other person's words in my first book. Daw had me change the words to original lyrics. The book is much better for it. (I wanted to use the first line to the Brady Bunch theme song it would have cost more than I or the cover artist was paid for the book.)

[Jamesaritchie]

Perhaps.

Then again, perhaps not. Time will tell. :)

Well, time has already told most of the story. You just have to look at the way publishers already handle anything that comes in where the writer is using material someone else owns.

No novel needs song lyrics in it. There are too many ways to paraphrase and rewrite. If you're Stephen King, you can get away with anything. If you're a new writer, you can't.

[maestrowork]

That's the boat I'm in as well. It hurts to have to take those lyrics out, so I guess I'll find another way around it. All I know is that that particular song's message has to be worked into the story b/c it's a reflection of this one character. That scene worked so well with the lyrics. Those few lyrics - whether readers knew the song or not - would "get it" immediately. I'll find a way to mend it though. ;)

Remember, songs work very different differently in literature than in movies. In movies, a song can help the scene immensely. In books, it doesn't have the same effect as a soundtrack. In books, they become just words... so it probably IS better to paraphrase or come up with your own lyrics.

[maestrowork]

Perhaps.

Then again, perhaps not. Time will tell. :)

Well... but why give the publisher another reason to reject your ms.?

[Beware_of_Italics]

Remember, songs work very different differently in literature than in movies. In movies, a song can help the scene immensely. In books, it doesn't have the same effect as a soundtrack. In books, they become just words... so it probably IS better to paraphrase or come up with your own lyrics.

Well, the lyrics worked for me but I know that doesn't mean it would work for everyone else. Everybody is different and not everyone can be pleased. But the fact remains that I won't be able to use those lyrics, so I have no choice but to come up with another route.

Which is okay. I wouldn't say my entire story will be destroyed without those lyrics. That would be depressing. :tongue It's only that I, personally, enjoy it more the way it was originally written. (Not to mention that that one scene - with the lyrics present - was the very first visual in my head for this book. So I guess that's another reason why I'm so attached to it. Without that scene and that song... this book might never have been written in the first place). At least I can have my own personal copy of how I wish it to be. That's comforting enough for me. :)

[Stephania]

Okay, let me explain it this way.

What I have in mind in my outline in short, one scene is Mary's revenge in a way.

Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.

It's better than that but that's what I mean about using a song, like a backdrop? sort to speak? Bad idea?

[Stephania]

Remember, songs work very different differently in literature than in movies. In movies, a song can help the scene immensely. In books, it doesn't have the same effect as a soundtrack. In books, they become just words... so it probably IS better to paraphrase or come up with your own lyrics.

Maestrowork!
I see your point! I'm trying to make this work like a movie, the song plays and their eyes meet, but it really doesn't work in literature. They do just become words, the reader won't feel how I feel about the song. Hhmm. I really got it. Thank you.

Give me time, I'll get it!

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Okay, let me explain it this way.

What I have in mind in my outline in short, one scene is Mary's revenge in a way.

Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.

It's better than that but that's what I mean about using a song, like a backdrop? sort to speak? Bad idea?Don't know if it's a bad idea, but if the title of the piece is "I wanna be around", then it really doesn't evoke anything for me -- I haven't a clue what the lyrics are (if any), who the artist is, male, female, androgynous; whether the tune is upbeat, downbeat, slow, fast, or intermediate.
From my point of view, you could get the same effect (from me, at least) with Mary dressing to the nines, going to the jukebox, and choosing a set of slow dance tunes -- then she goes and asks random men to dance with her right in front of Michael.

YMMV

[Shady Lane]

I have two songs referenced in my WIP:

The bedroom smelled like sawdust and sleeping bags. The quilt scratched Sash’s unshaven cheek. Bright Eyes hummed on the speaker above his head, the melody so insubstantial that it almost wasn’t there. The running water in the bathroom was practically percussion.

The chorus started and the harmonies twilled together.

‘Another One Bites the Dust’ [his ringtone] competed with Bright Eyes.

The song is, specifically, We are Nowhere and it's Now. But if you know any Bright Eyes, you'll understand the vibe of the scene. If you don't know any Bright Eyes, I hope I managed to describe it accurately without being annoying: It's quiet, simple, and sparse, there are harmonies, and it contrasts with Another One Bites the Dust.

Yeah, and Another One Bites the Dust is mentioned sometimes too. It's his ringtone. I figure most people know it at least vaguely, and if not...no one's suffering. The title's still ironic enough, at certain times.

[JoNightshade]

I am almost always against using songs, song titles, or song lyrics in a book. It just doesn't work as far as I'm concerned. It's not a movie, it's a book. For all you know, I, the reader, could have my own mood music playing while I'm reading it, and here you are trying to drag me off into some other song YOU really like but that I don't know. It's annoying.

Although I would say that Shady's first example works because she focused on the fact that it was "insubstantial" and the water in the bathroom rather than the song itself. That said, it's still kinda annoying because I don't know that song.

If you really want to have something to "set the mood" or whatever, why not turn to poetry? Have a character read a meaningful, relevant passage from Wordsworth or Keats. Or, if you REALLY REALLY need to have music (say in a bar scene), you can say, "A song called ___ came on. It reminded her a little of that Blake poem she had memorized back in high school. How did it go?" At least poetry is self-contained, and if you stick to old stuff you don't have to get the rights.

In general, anything that takes out OUTSIDE the novel is a no-no.

[johnzakour]

Okay, let me explain it this way.

What I have in mind in my outline in short, one scene is Mary's revenge in a way.

Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.

It's better than that but that's what I mean about using a song, like a backdrop? sort to speak? Bad idea?

That could work in a movie. In a book, not so much. Totally different parts of the brain process a song that you hear and one that you read.

Trust me, you lose a lot of a song when you simply read the words.

Plus, you're using somebody else's copy written words in your book.

[maestrowork]

Mary was dumped by Michael for another woman. The other woman ends up with another man and dumps Michael, Mary is made aware of this and gets decked out and goes to the lounge where he hangs out nursing his broken heart. She goes to the juke box and plays 'I wanna be around' and sits right across from him. At first she feels satisfied seeing him hurt and as the song plays on, Yada yada, their eyes meet yada.


Let me put it this way, bluntly: From your description, it could be just about ANY SONG about breaking up or hanging around or what might have been or yada yada yada. The song doesn't add to the scene - I personally don't know the song, and it doesn't affect me the same way it affects you or your character. For all I know, it could be a completely made up song with the lyrics:

"I wanna be around
touch you with my heart
fly with my and stay with me
don't make it so hard..."

You see what I mean.. they're words. There's no music to go with it. In the off chance your readers do know the actual song, they may get what you are trying to aim for. But chances are, your readers don't. Then it's probably better just be your own words to tell us "what exactly does it mean" to the character.

Again, this is not the same as a song in a movie soundtrack. With that, you have the actual melodies, arrangement, lyrics, and probably the interpretation of the singer to physically enhance the scene. In the movie medium, the "music" itself is extremely important to carry the mood, probably even more so than then words, especially if your characters are going to talk over them anyway.

Like I said, song are great to inspire the writer -- it probably means a whole lot to the writer. But it's not the same for the readers.

[maestrowork]

The song is, specifically, We are Nowhere and it's Now. But if you know any Bright Eyes, you'll understand the vibe of the scene. If you don't know any Bright Eyes, I hope I managed to describe it accurately without being annoying: It's quiet, simple, and sparse, there are harmonies, and it contrasts with Another One Bites the Dust.

Yeah, and Another One Bites the Dust is mentioned sometimes too. It's his ringtone. I figure most people know it at least vaguely, and if not...no one's suffering. The title's still ironic enough, at certain times.

That's the thing... unless I actually HEAR it (like in a movie), I have no idea what you're trying to get at. There's no music, no lyrics, no singer's interpretation, no nothing for me to know. Even if I know the song, it depends on which version I heard and in what kind of mood at the time... There is NO real music playing in my head when I read that description. So to me, you might as well have said, "they played the song Blah Blah Blah in the background."

[Nakhlasmoke]

I have two songs referenced in my WIP:



Quote:
The bedroom smelled like sawdust and sleeping bags. The quilt scratched Sash’s unshaven cheek. Bright Eyes hummed on the speaker above his head, the melody so insubstantial that it almost wasn’t there. The running water in the bathroom was practically percussion.



The song is, specifically, We are Nowhere and it's Now. But if you know any Bright Eyes,


Of course, when i read the first quote, i thought Art Garfunkel was playing on the radio.

But hey, I like rabbits, so what can I say.

See, people *will not* get what you think you mean every time. Sorry to say.

[Zoombie]

I have one song referenced in my WIP. It's "I love my computer." by Bad Religion and the two main characters recite lines to one another with changing "I" to "you" in some cases, depending on who sang what.

It made sense, because one of the characters is a cybrog and can be technically considered a computer with flesh around it. It also doesn't make sense, becuase how they could remember Bad Religion but not remember the existence of Earth...

[BlueBadger]

Remember, songs work very different differently in literature than in movies. In movies, a song can help the scene immensely. In books, it doesn't have the same effect as a soundtrack. In books, they become just words... so it probably IS better to paraphrase or come up with your own lyrics.

I agree. I think lyrics are a very ineffective way of feeding emotion into your story. In your own head, you see the scene playing out like a movie. But you risk losing your reader if they're not familiar with the song/band.

The song is, specifically, We are Nowhere and it's Now. But if you know any Bright Eyes, you'll understand the vibe of the scene. If you don't know any Bright Eyes, I hope I managed to describe it accurately without being annoying: It's quiet, simple, and sparse, there are harmonies, and it contrasts with Another One Bites the Dust.

See, I have to admit I got lost here. First I wasn't sure if you were referencing Bright Eyes the band or Bright Eyes the song (you know ... Watership Down). I have to stop and think about it, which takes me away from the scene.

[JoNightshade]

When I hear "Bright Eyes" all I think about is "Total Eclipse of the Heart."

[BlueBadger]

Yep, there's that too!

Another strike against citing songs in novels, I guess. ;)

I will admit I reference a song in a scene where some of my characters are sitting around on a break during their crummy job. One of them notes how people who are stuck in nasty places of work always claim they're going to leave by a certain date, but never do. It reminds him of Hotel California ("You can check out any time you like ... but you can never leave.")

That's probably going to have to go because it's a lyrical reference, but I'm wondering if I should keep the reference to the song itself. It's a classic song that most people are familar with ... but is it familiar enough that they'll automatically fill in the lyrics when Character X says, "This place is like the Hotel California?"

[Shady Lane]

Of course, when i read the first quote, i thought Art Garfunkel was playing on the radio.

But hey, I like rabbits, so what can I say.

See, people *will not* get what you think you mean every time. Sorry to say.

Art Garfunkel would work just fine, actually.

It's a YA, though, and I think Bright Eyes is well-known enough among us kids. And if not, like I said, no one suffers. It's three sentences in a 48,000 word WIP.

[benbradley]

When I hear "Bright Eyes" all I think about is "Total Eclipse of the Heart."

And I can't see that song title without thinking of this video - the singing isn't up to par, but the guy in the middle plays a mean freezer. Rated PG for a "partial eclipse of the Moon" (you'll see...):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br-D7UneS0E

[sassandgroove]

And I can't see that song title without thinking of this video - the singing isn't up to par, but the guy in the middle plays a mean freezer. Rated PG for a "partial eclipse of the Moon" (you'll see...):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br-D7UneS0E
That was painful. I couldn't look away. Yikes. Total Eclipse of the Heart is the song I thought Shady Lane was referencing by "Bright Eyes" Becuase I didn't know the name of the song until now. I HATE THAT SONG. I think, Shady, that you would do better to take out the Bright Eyes ref and just describe the music. Then you won't evoke loathing from anyone who HATES THAT SONG.
It's a YA, though, and I think Bright Eyes is well-known enough among us kids. And if not, like I said, no one suffers. It's three sentences in a 48,000 word WIP.I disagree. I don't know who Bright Eyes is, but your reference took me to a completely different song which I LOATHE and it would take me out of the story.
The bedroom smelled like sawdust and sleeping bags. The quilt scratched Sash’s unshaven cheek. Bright Eyes hummed on the speaker above his head, the melody so insubstantial that it almost wasn’t there. The running water in the bathroom was practically percussion.
The bedroom smelled like sawdust and sleeping bags. The quilt scratched Sash’s unshaven cheek. A mellow song hummed on the speaker above his head, the melody so insubstantial that it almost wasn’t there. The running water in the bathroom was practically percussion.

[Michael Murphy]

Obviously, I'm in the minority here, not an altogether unfamiliar place for me to be, but I think song titles and song lyrics can provide an added layer of detail and emotion to a manuscript. For example if a character walks into a bar and a country western song is playing, it can provide additional sensory detail by naming the song. And if song lyrics are important and relevant to a character, by all means they should be used, and Stephen King's not the only author to do so. But, hey, that's just me.

[edwardcullen13]

can you use band names without the bands consent or do you have to go through the same stuff for that too?

[EriRae]

Band names and performer's names can be used without consent--you can't copyright a name or title. The group Survivor ("Eye of the Tiger," anyone?)tried to fight that other "Survivor" and lost (TV show, Destiny's Child song, take your pick. They still lost.)

I used names of country performers in my novel, in the essence of being specific and showing rather than telling. Plus I'm trying to show that my MC is not the usual trench-coat mafia type: he doesn't listen to Marilyn Manson or death metal, he puts in some good ol' Country: Tim McGraw and Faith Hill. Even if you don't know what they sound like, you know who they are, or can at least associate them with Country music. Or maybe you think he's Dr. Phil's brother...but he's Country, too, in my book.

[chiouxy]

Art Garfunkel would work just fine, actually.

...I think Bright Eyes is well-known enough among us kids. And if not, like I said, no one suffers. It's three sentences in a 48,000 word WIP.

I'm almost 30 and I'm familiar with Bright Eyes. In my WIP I used the line, "His voice shook like Connor Oberst after eating a handful of espresso beans." I took it out, figuring it was too obscure (and not that good of a sentence anyway).

I think Bright Eyes is one of those artists that's huge among music geeks, but the average Joe on the street has never heard of him. That said, I didn't find your particular reference too jarring, as you describe the music without depending on the reader knowing who the artist is.

[Zixi]

I've read all your posts about including or not including lyrics, mentioning the artists or setting the mood. Most of you say it's a no-no.

But what about "The Tale of Despereaux" by Kate DeCamillio? It was a Newberry award winner in 2004 and quite blatently she has a scene where the King sings to his daughter. THere are no references to the artist but the words of a Deep Purple song are written into the story.

ie: When the deep purple falls over sleepy garden walls....

Was that a coincidence or did she pay for the right to use those words? It wasn't footnoted nor could I find credit given to the songwriter or recording company.

It just simply was part of the story, and true it's a middle grade book, but as an older adult I recognized the words immediately as I read them and wondered if the young editors at the publishing houses had no clue it was from an old song.

Your opinions?

[Berry]

THere are no references to the artist but the words of a Deep Purple song are written into the story.


The song "Deep Purple" is not, in fact, a "Deep Purple" song. The rock band was named after the song, not the other way around.

The lyrics were written in 1939 by Mitchell Parish. If he was careless about copyright renewal it's entirely possible the copyright has expired and anyone is free to use them however they wish. (Check before doing so, though).

Alas, determining the copyright status of works registered between 1923 and 1978 can be, um, complicated.

[sassandgroove]

IT's not that it doesn't ever work or that you never ever should do it. It is that it can be hard to do effectively so that the reader gets the meaning you want to convey whether they know the song or not or hate the song or whatever. Hey, one of my fave books (and movies) is High Fidelity. I'm just saying it can date your book and it can convey something other than you want if you are not careful.

[Beware_of_Italics]

I just had to laugh at the timing. Today I was visiting Karen Marie Moning's new message board. Someone mentioned how they were hooked on Dageus's character in Dark, when he was listening to that Nine Inch Nails song, Closer. That one song right there said a lot about that character. So, I don't think there's any right or wrong answer here. People are all different. If you don't recognize the song mentioned, just move on. If you do and you feel it adds to the character, then great. JMO.

[JB_Finesse]

I don't know, I might think "F*ck this character, Nine Inch Nails sucks."

Oh, and let's say I had a character singing along to something but changing the lyrics, like:

"Went to the dance, looking for romance
Saw Barbara Ann, didn't know she was a man"

Could the remains of the Beach Boys sue my ass off or would it be fair use?

[Beware_of_Italics]

That was my point. Everyone is different.

[johnzakour]

The bottom line is this will be your publisher's choice and a lot of publishers aren't willing to pay what it takes to secure the rights to use song lyrics in a book. Yes, you can pay for them yourself but chances are likely the cost of using the lyrics will be more than you make on the book.

If I was a new author I'd be concentrating on making my words as strong as possible. I wouldn't want to spend my time trying to secure the rights to another person's words.