First draft by word count?

[EriRae]

I've seen several different sigs with word counts listed and that made me wonder: do you write with the ending word count in mind? Do you sit down to write the first draft knowing it's going to be 80k or 100k? What if it stubbornly wants to end itself at 70? Or 90? Do you fill for 10k words to get your perfect number?

I'm a sit down and let the characters lead me to the end kind of girl. I tried to outline my 2nd WIP and by chapter five, it's already moving away from the outline because my characters just don't want to follow the script. I keep the numbers in mind for the 2nd draft, but I put as many words down in the first to get me to the end.

So fellow writers, how do you do it?

[JamieFord]

I don't write with a word count in mind. But I do write with a loose outline so I don't end up with a 50k novel, or a 200k one for that matter. Just enough to tell the story which so far (only written two) has worked out fine.

[Willowmound]

Loose outline, no pre-set word count. More than 70k, less than 130k, is all I tell myself -- once -- then go from there.

[seun]

I write the first draft until it's done and then edit. My finished books have ranged from 80,000 to 110,000 words although my WIP is looking like it will be a lot shorter.

[aadams73]

I have an approximate goal. It's just a guideline.

[Marlys]

I aim for about 72K, but sometimes I'm in such a hurry to get the story told that my first drafts aren't fleshed out as well as they could be. I just dug out an early version of one of my manuscripts, and find that a key scene occurred on p. 57, when in the final draft it happens on p. 122.

That said, I do have two mss. that stubbornly remain too short (54K) and too long (184K). I'll probably cut the long one into two parts at some point once I'm finished with my current project (or the one after that), and might try for e-pubbing the short one--or possibly cutting it down to 35-40K and pairing it with another novella for a two-fer.

[scarletpeaches]

For me, I aim at 50k for the first draft. If I have too much story, I just squash it into a few pages or even paragraphs, depending on what it takes to get to the end. My first drafts, though short, are often messy affairs, baggy in places, but they make sense to me.

Depending on whether it's an adult novel or YA, I aim for either 70-75k or 60k on the rewrite, and as that's a difference of never more than 50% at the very, very most, it's no bother at all. In fact I often go over. But I set myself a minimum target and if I go over, it feels great. But I make sure I have enough story to justify the length of the novel. Filler is wrong.

[Bubastes]

I do set an ending word count for my first drafts, just as a target to keep me going. It's usually 15-25% higher than my word count goal for the final draft because I've learned from past experience (at least for short stories and articles) that I usually over-write by about 20%. Knowing that I'll be cutting so much later on takes the pressure off of me during the first draft stage.

Sure, I know I'll be cutting 20%, but which 20%? It's like making sure I have more than enough clay to make a pot. I like having options.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I aim to finish the story.

Having said that I usually try to get a first draft between 90 and 110k, using 100k as my aim point. I know I overwrite (and also sometimes need to add plot) but I feel anything much under 80-85k is too short for me. Dunno why. I've read short books I really liked, but for my writing that feels like the least I can call a novel.

[Britchik]

I gave myself a target word count to keep me moving forward on my WIP. Seeing the words build up to a substantial number, and actually being able to visualize how much closer I am to my goal, seems to encourage me to keep going.

As far as how I came up with the target number, 120,000 seems to be the generally accepted average for a fantasy novel, from what I've seen and read.

[Azraelsbane]

For me it's just a rough estimate. For instance I just had to up my main WIP 20,000 words, because it became pretty obvious that it wasn't going to make it in 160k. I'm hoping to flesh out about 10k or so in the 2nd draft. Here's hopin'.

[Captain Morgan]

Well, I ported my WP 5.1 files into MS Word this morning and scanned the total stats.

54 singe spaced pages. Will probably be somewhere under 108 DB spaced.

23K words total, and since a standard novel is ~90K, that puts me at 25% or a quarter of the way there to completion.

So.. I have quite a long way to go but so far, I think the word count is matching my main outline for the story ok. At least I THINK I will have the whole rough finished before the year is out. Getting the final draft, may take years though <cringe>

[MidnightMuse]

I just write the story, but I do keep an eye on word count as I see the ending coming up - with the goal of being over 70 and under 240.




Yes, I've written a 240k novel. Stupid? You betcha. :)

[Jamesaritchie]

I aim at the length I know the publisher wants. The only thing I hate more than having to cut a bunch of words is having to add a bunch of words, so I want the first draft to be within three or four thousand words of dead center.

[Pamster]

I understand why you would pose this question and it's a worthwhile question. I am inspired by word count as I am drafting, but I don't know exactly where it will be put since I don't always outline before I take off into a story. My current WIP is non-fiction and 25K words so far in less then a week. I would like to get 60-80K out of this project, and I have hope of finishing the draft after my son is back in school.

It's been nice to get the first 25K down, so I can take a little break when the time comes not this weekend, but the next weekend. It's because school is only for two more weeks, and I have to get what I can written during the time I can squeeze in to write. :)

I feel better when I can crank out a few thousand words, and seeing the word count going up is gratifying. Interesting topic Erin, thanks for posting it. :)

[Sassee]

I set a goal for myself and I'm working towards it. Really, it's just a general guideline so I can tell myself - self, you need to get to the point already. I already know I'll either overshoot (by a lot) or undershoot, and depending on how the revision goes it'll change again by the time I'm done. I figure 90k was a good goal, because if I fall short or if revisions take out a lot, I should still be above 70k, and if I overshoot I should still be around or under 110k.

[WordGypsy]

Well, I had my WIP as being 65,000 when it's done. I write short. I'll be lucky to hit that on the first run through. Hopefully when edit time comes my beta readers will let me know what can stand some extra words....Right now I'm at 42,000ish and feel like I'm coming to the home stretch. I have a long way to go, but it's getting there. I do revise as I go though so that helps alot with not having to cut as much.

[swvaughn]

Okay, I feel left out now. :D I want a WIP count in my sig!

Well, I'll put one in, then!

Fine.

I will.

See if I don't...

[MMWyrm]

I don't have a set word-count goal in mind. I just want to finish the story. I can't outline either. I've tried. All four of my first drafts that I have done have been between 65k and 80k.

[reigningcatsndogs]

Word count is something that I never consider when writing. I write till I've told the story and then I stop. I don't count pages either, or chapters. I remember too well in school the days of wondering how many 'very's you could put into a 200 word essay just to make it 200 words. If I can tell the story and do it justice in 72,000 words, why would I want to go through just to add another 8,000 words. I find the counting prejudices my thought process.

[Jen_D]

I am exactly like you, erinmiller77. I don't pick a word count, and I let the characters lead me.

I've heard some writers say that's impossible, the writer writes the stories, not the characters. But I tell ya, I have scenes now that I never even remotely saw coming, when I started. They just kind of happened.

[Kaytie]

I tend to overwrite in my first draft and cut in my second. So for my last novel, my first draft was 135k, and then I found ways to cut almost 15k so that the final draft was much closer to 120k. It's much easier for me to cut in revision than it is to add.

[JoNightshade]

I asked this same question a while ago... I never had a projected word count before. So I decided to try it with this WIP. My novels usually come out between 85 and 95K, but this time I decided to aim for 100K. As you can see from my sig, I'm almost there! Actually I think it's probably going to end up being about 110K. In any case, I think having a goal really helped me pace myself, because I could see "Okay, now I'm about in the middle of things... am I where I should be?" Also, my goal has been to write at least 2K every day. This has been HUGE because it means I have a daily goal and I also have an end in sight. And now that I'm approaching the end, it's very exciting!!! :) This is also the quickest book I've ever written, about three months for the first draft.

[Hopscotcher]

i didn't start out trying to write a book but when my story hit the fifty page mark, i figured "what the heck!" and once i was committed to the project, I tried aiming for a 90k manuscript because i heard somewhere that its the average amount. My original thought on the story was this character who bumbles into the story almost on accident. As i got writing however, i could not make this character i had created do the things i had envisioned for him. now the novel is complete and i am shopping it around and im afraid the thing is too big since it ended up at 170k. but i like the story and its strong and while i could probably cut out some of that, i like the story the way it is. thoughts?

[Lyra Jean]

I have a word count goal because I've yet to complete a novel. The closest I've come is during nano and that was only 30,000.

I do know that the story is done when it's done but it keeps from being overwhelmed and lose confidence. It's just a guideline because I do have people who ask me how my writing is and now I can tell them I'm __% finished with the first draft.

[reenkam]

I usually have a very loose outline and I know what kind of book I want it to be so I have a general word count (usually 60k - 65k, since I write YA) If I just let myself write and follow an outline too loosely then I end up with too many words (one's 120k...about 20k-30k needs to be cut). In the extreme, if I just let the characters do whatever they want and I write about it I end up with something that is no longer a novel. I have a WIP that's 800k and counting...obviously I'm going to have to do something about that sometime...

[catephoenix]

I don't aim for a word count - just hope. The difference between my first and final drafts seem to be about 20,000 words, so my first drafts seem to be the bare bones of the story.

[Prawn]

My goal is 85K, but both my novels ended up at about 93K. I am on the third one now, and my working goal is 1000 words a day, so it should take about three months to get to the end.
P

[AndreaGS]

I write up a fairly detailed outline - chapter by chapter, and subject to change. I just estimate word count so I can have an idea of how far along I am.

On the rough draft I'm revising right now, I estimated 100-120K words. I ended at 140K.

[Legionsynch]

I just figured out what the average WC of stories in my genre are, what I felt comfortable trying to reach, and what was logical. Then I pushed towards that number, but if the story wasn't done by the time I hit my WC, then I just kept going anyway.

[Captain Morgan]

I took a few hours today, and wrote 5K= words. My goal is 90K, but technically, 100K SOUNDS better! Once I hit 90K, well, getting the extra 10K is a pieces of cake. A few hours times 2.

Of course, I'm not saying you SHOULD base your novel length exactly on word count...

[EriRae]

I asked this same question a while ago... I never had a projected word count before. So I decided to try it with this WIP. My novels usually come out between 85 and 95K, but this time I decided to aim for 100K. As you can see from my sig, I'm almost there! Actually I think it's probably going to end up being about 110K. In any case, I think having a goal really helped me pace myself, because I could see "Okay, now I'm about in the middle of things... am I where I should be?" Also, my goal has been to write at least 2K every day. This has been HUGE because it means I have a daily goal and I also have an end in sight. And now that I'm approaching the end, it's very exciting!!! :) This is also the quickest book I've ever written, about three months for the first draft.

2k a day--I like that goal. I know I should make it my own, but it's so HARD ;) Congrats on pushing through your first draft so quickly. I think I'll try that for my current WIP, too. Except I just saw in the BOTM catalog that someone's just published my idea!!! I bet it's not written in first person like mine is, though.

[Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX]

Xx|I don't outline, really. I (sometimes) have a vague idea of what I want it to be about and who the characters are, the ending comes to me sometime, and I do best to just write. Once I have a forming plot idea, I basically do this:

chap1--*choppy summary of what happens in chap1*

chap2--*choppy summary for 2*

chap3--*""*

And so on and so forth. I write up to a chapter and then do those summaries for 2 to 6 chapters in the future, then write on. XD

As for wordcount, I've never had any clue about what I wanted unless I was entering a contest that told me what I was to have. But here I am, probably about a quarter of the way through the thing, and I'm at 42k. XD I hope to have around 40k more by the end of the summer, but I don't think that'll finish it. Hopefully, around 15k of that will get me to almost/about halfway through, and the rest to 3/4 of the way. Then I'm in the home stretch. :3

This is my first novel, so I don't have anything to which to compare it. Except remembering how I used to struggle to get things to be longer...

(also, properly MS formatted, it's 165 pages so far. Can you tell I'm excited? I've never stuck to something for so long!)|xX

[swvaughn]

Xx|I don't outline, really. I (sometimes) have a vague idea of what I want it to be about and who the characters are, the ending comes to me sometime, and I do best to just write. Once I have a forming plot idea, I basically do this:




And so on and so forth. I write up to a chapter and then do those summaries for 2 to 6 chapters in the future, then write on. XD

...



(also, properly MS formatted, it's 165 pages so far. Can you tell I'm excited? I've never stuck to something for so long!)|xX


:D I thought I was the only one who does this! I'll often finish a chapter, and then create the breaks for the next few and type out a few rough notes of what should happen (in blue font -- I call it the Little Blue Lazy Fairy Writing Method because I usually do it really late at night when I'm too exhausted to actually write...).

Of course, what I actually end up writing doesn't always follow the notes, but it's nice to think I have a plan sometimes. :)

And congrats on getting so far! Keep going until you get to The End!

[Captain Morgan]

This morning I ported over yesterday's work again. 3352 words, not bad I guess, then again short of what I was aiming for. Total manuscript is now up to 62 singe spaced pages.

I do feel a bit bad though about one thing, I wasn't happy how my last chapter was going, so I skipped over it and jumped ahead. I sense I will do a few jumps now, then go back later to fill in the gaps. That may not go over so well, but we'll see....

[Toxic_Waste]

I am just curious about this practice of skipping ahead when a chapter isn't going the way you want. I guess it must depend on what aspect of the chapter is floundering. If it's something where the plot isn't advancing, I don't see how you can pick up the pieces and move on.

If it's just a matter of minor character development, dialogue, some descriptive exposition or other things that can be fixed at a later date, I suppose your skip-ahead could work.

But how can you move on by skipping an important element? Isn't that a bit like getting a flat tire and deciding to keep driving?

[JoNightshade]

Hmm, yeah, I don't skip. I usually stay with a chapter until I find something that works... mainly because sometimes I discover something in that chapter that changes everything after it. This is because I am not a strict outliner, I suppose.

[seun]

But how can you move on by skipping an important element? Isn't that a bit like getting a flat tire and deciding to keep driving?

I can see the logic of that but it is possible to skip over a part that won't work and go ahead with a later scene. OK, it can make the edit more difficult but if the scene doesn't want to be written, I'll go on with something beyond it and come back to it. Every time I've done this, it's worked.

[Captain Morgan]

If it's just a matter of minor character development, dialogue, some descriptive exposition or other things that can be fixed at a later date, I suppose your skip-ahead could work.

Yes...

And while I was tempted to just write junk and then come back later and edit it, why waste the time when I can do something else and NOT have to worry about throwing it all out later.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I am just curious about this practice of skipping ahead when a chapter isn't going the way you want. I guess it must depend on what aspect of the chapter is floundering. If it's something where the plot isn't advancing, I don't see how you can pick up the pieces and move on.

If it's just a matter of minor character development, dialogue, some descriptive exposition or other things that can be fixed at a later date, I suppose your skip-ahead could work.

But how can you move on by skipping an important element? Isn't that a bit like getting a flat tire and deciding to keep driving?

I've done the skip ahead thing myself. It's most helpful if you know where you need to go with the story, but aren't sure about how to get there. I sometimes find that the way the story progresses from that point gives me the clues I need to figure out how the part I skipped must have happened. Different techniques work for different writers.

[stormie]

I don't worry about reaching any certain word count in the first draft. I always somehow end up adding several thousand words, then cutting certain parts out, then rewriting and more story....

Nope, don't worry about it.

[Chasing the Horizon]

Since I make detailed outlines, having a goal word count is easy for me. I don't worry if I finish short or go over that goal, though. It's just there so I have an idea of how close I am to being done.

[Toxic_Waste]

I am seeing two ways of looking at chapter skipping: On one side, there is the chance that moving ahead to something else (when stuck) provides an unexpected new direction that might not have surfaced if the author had chosen not to forge ahead.

On the other side, there is the chance that skipping ahead will derail the story in such a way as to weaken it.

I guess it just depends on each individual writing project and each individual writer's way of handling it.

[heatheringemar]

My first drafts all end up right around 20K to 25K. I'm what you call a "putter-inner."

Of course, the longest thing I've ever written is my current WIP (broke 30K today), and I'm not even sure the story is going to want to go past 45K.

[Danger Jane]

Mine are here because I'm terrified I won't make it--40K is the low end for YA, so I have heard...

It's sort of a goal, because I always write light, and really if my second WIP surpasses 30K I'll be extremely happy.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I've seen several different sigs with word counts listed and that made me wonder: do you write with the ending word count in mind? Do you sit down to write the first draft knowing it's going to be 80k or 100k? What if it stubbornly wants to end itself at 70? Or 90? Do you fill for 10k words to get your perfect number?

I'm a sit down and let the characters lead me to the end kind of girl. I tried to outline my 2nd WIP and by chapter five, it's already moving away from the outline because my characters just don't want to follow the script. I keep the numbers in mind for the 2nd draft, but I put as many words down in the first to get me to the end.

So fellow writers, how do you do it?


I set a basic goal. If I hit the goal, great. If not, that's great too. The idea, at least with me, is to see if I can actually reach the goal.

But I never know whether the piece will actually reach the goal or not. It's basically just something to reach for. Whether I get it or not, I enjoy the challenge.

:)

[EriRae]

I set a basic goal. If I hit the goal, great. If not, that's great too. The idea, at least with me, is to see if I can actually reach the goal.

But I never know whether the piece will actually reach the goal or not. It's basically just something to reach for. Whether I get it or not, I enjoy the challenge.

:)


My first draft of my first novel, The Schoolhouse Five, was 186k...I cut it down to 112k to be within the 100-120k range and still tell the story. I guess I'm the other end of the spectrum...I know I'm going to have plenty of words to cut mercilessly when I find the ending. Hey, if you ever want to collaborate, I'm sure we could reach our goals, go over the mark, and delete until it's golden.

[EriRae]

With my current WIP, I'm trying the "First Draft in 30 Days" outline method. I've already been at work on this project for over a year, because I started it when I was going thru a rough patch w/ Schoolhouse. I found that, as I wrote, my characters weren't the same people I'd sketched them out to be in the outline. I'm going back to the very beginning, worksheet 1, to draw up new detailed character sketches so I can figure out what they need to do next. This was my attempt at 2k a day...I was stuck in chapter five, so I decided to work on my outline until I figured out what to do, and now I know where they need to go, at least in chapter 5!

[Jamesaritchie]

With my current WIP, I'm trying the "First Draft in 30 Days" outline method. I've already been at work on this project for over a year, because I started it when I was going thru a rough patch w/ Schoolhouse. I found that, as I wrote, my characters weren't the same people I'd sketched them out to be in the outline. I'm going back to the very beginning, worksheet 1, to draw up new detailed character sketches so I can figure out what they need to do next. This was my attempt at 2k a day...I was stuck in chapter five, so I decided to work on my outline until I figured out what to do, and now I know where they need to go, at least in chapter 5!

I think it's usually best to let the characters be who they want to be, rather than who you want them to be.

[Richard White]

I usually work toward a word count, but for different reasons for different projects. Most of my short stores and novellas have a (semi-) hard word count assigned to them by the editor who's trying to fit X numbers of stories into Y pages of a book. So, for those, I have to get the story in under 5,000 words, or 10,000 words, or 25,000 words (for the novellas).

The media tie-in novels I've written have all had a maximum word count assigned in the contract. Again, going over or under by 10% is an unspoken acceptable threshold, but again, it's usually set because the publisher is trying to keep the books under X pages so they can sell it for Y amount. Mores pages, more expensive book, less sales in general.

Given those experiences, I'm trying to ensure my original novels (which I'm starting to shop around now) all fall between 90-120K words. Now, my original drafts usually exceed that by a great amount, but it's amazing how much you can cut out when you go back through on the rewrite as "Nice to know but doesn't really move the story forward". (Course, I also tend to find a lot of "what was I thinking when I wrote this subplot" - but that's another thread all together.) ;)

[Sean D. Schaffer]

My first draft of my first novel, The Schoolhouse Five, was 186k...I cut it down to 112k to be within the 100-120k range and still tell the story. I guess I'm the other end of the spectrum...I know I'm going to have plenty of words to cut mercilessly when I find the ending. Hey, if you ever want to collaborate, I'm sure we could reach our goals, go over the mark, and delete until it's golden.


Phew! I wish I could write a 1st Draft that long. It'd be nice to have to cut instead of adding.

[DragonHeart]

I thought about setting an estimated word count for my current WIP but at this point it would be essentially useless. When I first started it I imagined it would be about the same length as my other stories, in the 1,500-2,000 range. (I haven't yet had a story strong enough to be a novel) As you can see from my sig, it's already topped 3,000 and still going strong. Not only that but I've figured out that I started too soon and I'll have to go back and add one, possibly two more scenes at the start when I write the second draft.

And to add to that, the plot's doing things I didn't intend. Plus I'm underwriting because I haven't done any worldbuilding, so I've left out most of the detail...yeah. I could end up with 4,000 or 40,000+, I just don't know yet.

It's quite exciting to me, realizing that this may well be the longest continuous story I've written to date. I feel that even an estimated word count would spoil the fun, so I won't set a goal on this one.

I do intend to have a rough estimate of Red Phalanx, though. If I ever get around to finishing that outline - TDS has completely taken over.

~DragonHeart~

[Toxic_Waste]

This comment is related to magazine writing rather than books. I recently asked the publisher of a national magazine what the guidelines were for word count regarding a story I was working on. They had already agreed to run the piece, but I had no idea if it was too long, too short, or whatever. She wrote back with the most unusual comment: "That depends on how much you want to get paid."

I had never before been presented with a choice like that. I really liked having the freedom to just let the article (about great white sharks) run its course without having to add or subtract words. I did not pad it with fluff or extra words in order to get more money, though. If the mag had been limited to online publication, I could see how there could be that much flexibility, but it was both -- online and hard copy.

Makes me wonder how many other magazines are out there with the same practice in regard to word count, or any book publishers, for that matter.

[ccarver30]

I asked this same question a few months ago. I have no idea how many words my novels will end up being so I just put my current word count *when I had my WIPS in my signature.

[ccarver30]

Phew! I wish I could write a 1st Draft that long. It'd be nice to have to cut instead of adding.

That's where I am too. :(

[EriRae]

Phew! I wish I could write a 1st Draft that long. It'd be nice to have to cut instead of adding.


In case you haven't noticed from my postings...I'm wordy :) I cut 60k of unnecessary filler, adverbs, conversations, a character, a subplot, and some gratuitous sex because I had no idea 120k is considered a long novel, and anything over that for a first novel will be considered a hard sell. Less is more: I love how the novel reads now. Just wish I could find a beta-critter (see my thread under betas and critters).

[ccarver30]

In case you haven't noticed from my postings...I'm wordy :) I cut 60k of unnecessary filler, adverbs, conversations, a character, a subplot, and some gratuitous sex because I had no idea 120k is considered a long novel, and anything over that for a first novel will be considered a hard sell. Less is more: I love how the novel reads now. Just wish I could find a beta-critter (see my thread under betas and critters).

LMAO You cut my entire novel. >60,000

[Sean D. Schaffer]

In case you haven't noticed from my postings...I'm wordy :) I cut 60k of unnecessary filler, adverbs, conversations, a character, a subplot, and some gratuitous sex because I had no idea 120k is considered a long novel, and anything over that for a first novel will be considered a hard sell. Less is more: I love how the novel reads now. Just wish I could find a beta-critter (see my thread under betas and critters).

The longest manuscript I ever did was 93,000 words long. It took me 17 years to get it to that length.

Like I said, I wish I could be that wordy. :)

[heatheringemar]

I wish I could be wordy too.

My problem is that I am notorious for writing in the middle range. My short stories rarely turn into true short stories, but my novels... well, as you can see from my user title: I write short novels.

Now, don't get me wrong: I love my novellas! The problem is marketability. :( I want to see my stuff in print, in bookstores, but works as short as mine are -- if public opinion is to be believed -- going to be a hard sell in the sci-fi/fantasy field.

So, I'm padding, fleshing out, etc. etc. We'll see what happens, I guess.