Serious Question for you Poetry Room Regulars

[MacAllister]

SYW and the Flash Fiction Room and Writing Exercises, Prompts, and Games have all been moved to the new AW Workshop Forum.

So my question is this:

Would y'all rather have your crit subforum moved over there with the other hands-on, nuts-n-bolts of writing stuff; or would you prefer it stay here where it is now?

Poll going up in a minute. :)

[poetinahat]

Well, what do you think?

Some points to consider:
- Your work would still have password protection from web crawlers
- Poems would be separated from other poetry topics
- We could remove password protection from the main poetry boards
- Poetry threads would then show up in the New Posts listing

Another question:
- If we do move the Critique and Chapbook boards to the Workshop forum, is it still worth having separate Games and Discussion boards? Do you think it would be better to put all the non-SYW threads into the one main Poetry board?

[Pat~]

Well, what do you think?

Some points to consider:
- Your work would still have password protection from web crawlers
- Poems would be separated from other poetry topics
- We could remove password protection from the main poetry boards
- Poetry threads would then show up in the New Posts listing

Another question:
- If we do move the Critique and Chapbook boards to the Workshop forum, is it still worth having separate Games and Discussion boards? Do you think it would be better to put all the non-SYW threads into the one main Poetry board?

As long as it's still password protected, I'm flexible; critique/chapbook can go either place and I'll be happy.

Personally, I like having the organization of still having separate Games and Discussion boards. The Poetry Forum is just so big, some threads can get lost otherwise.

Will the Haiku threads go to Share Your Work?

[ddgryphon]

I vote no for several reasons:

First of all, I'm happy with the whole section password protected, because who knows what might end up in a thread.

Second, I think that our poems inform our discussion and our discussion informs our poetry -- they are a joined bundle.

So, no, no, a thousand times no.

[Stew21]

I'd like to see it all stay in one room. However, I would say that only the critique sub-forum should be password protected. and the other sub-forums should disappear into the main poetry forum. So the main board (not password protected) would have discussion, games and exercises and chapbook poetry, while one sub-forum contains poems for critique and maintains its password protection.
Just my two cents.

[P.H.Delarran]

Is it possible to have access to it from both menus?
I'm happy where it is, and like the way the poetry forum is set up, with everything all together. But I think the forum might draw a little more interest if we had a spot with the 'big dogs', and it seems kinda odd not to be there, the segregation might make us look snooty, or unwanted. :tongue

[P.H.Delarran]

Somehow I missed Rob's entire post. I'll have to come back.

[MacAllister]

OH! PH, you're brilliant! I can put the room over there that automagically redirects back to here!

[Stew21]

that sounds like a great idea. I still think that should be the only piece of the poetry forum that should be password protected though, and all other sub0-forums should fall under the main poetry forum.
AW Chapbook poems can also go into main poetry forum, I think.
Just my opinion. I think it would make us more accessible!

[davids]

Do not much care but we should have a prose-etry forum for prose-etricians feeling at least marginally prose-etronical

[dclary]

We can barely get our stuff read and critiqued here where there's poets looking for it. Moving it out there would be like changing the programming time for a new series with a small fanbase...

The ring of death.

[NeuroFizz]

I agree with David.

[ddgryphon]

2x what Deek and Nero said.

[LimeyDawg]

I can't imagine anything wrong with making changes that draw more folks in to this forum.

[skelly]

I can't imagine anything wrong with making changes that draw more folks in to this forum.
I think all the folks that want to come to this forum are already here.

[poetinahat]

I'll hold my vote back until the end.

Here's another idea for reorganising:

Wherever the Critique board ends up, put the Chapbook board inside it. Then one password protects all those poems.

If we do that, there are two remaining questions:
- Should the Games and Exercises threads have password protection?
- Do we re-combine the remaining boards?

Anyway, something to consider.

[MacAllister]

I've put up a link that brings anyone who clicks to the Poetry Critique room.

I think Poet and William have both made an excellent point about the "New Posts" feature not seeing in here, and the fact that this room looks like it's all but abandoned, from the main menu.

I wonder what people are comfortable doing, to try and mitigate that? Trish has made a couple of suggestions -- what do you think?

[kdnxdr]

However this all turns out is how it turns out.

I was just thinking that sometimes the games and discussions inspire something I write that I like and I claim as a poem, or the nucleus of a poem. And, I really like the password protection of everthing. So, maybe I agree with something someone else has previously posted?

kid

[MacAllister]

I completely understand that, kd, and I'm not planning on taking it away.

I'm also thinking that Haskins has a point, and that I absolutely adore the spontaneous way poetry can happen -- ML comes to mind, where the commenters regularly and spontaneously explode into sort of impromptu poetry threads, a cross between performance and jam session.

In terms of bringing poetry to the open waters -- I think it's valuable and crucial, and I love Trish's poems about AW regulars, for example, which unfortunately are behind a password wall.

[P.H.Delarran]

Thanks Mac!
I'm good with the games and discussions being moved back in the main poetry section. I don't post a lot in the Chapbook section yet, so I think those that do should have the biggest say there.

[jst5150]

Like materials should be kept with like materials. Plus, I'm not sure the sort of nuts-and-bolts review given to poetry here is the same as the nuts-and-bolts handling of other writing. This is due in part to the fact that everyone believes they have some sort of handle on the other stuff while poetry is still voodoo. Like being asked to critique a Pollock or a Klee. Sure, we could say something, but, we're just giving a WAG.

Leave it here and let's figure out a way to disable the spiders without the password.

[louisgodwin]

Is it possible to have access to it from both menus?


I agree. Excellent idea!

[MacAllister]

I agree. Excellent idea!
That's been done. :)

[jst5150]

Just an additional thought: the games and exercises are chocolate milk. They draw a lot of folks attention. However, they usually de-evolve. More office party or coffee break that substance.

And that's where I'd put more Google ads. :-)

jt

[jst5150]

We can barely get our stuff read and critiqued here where there's poets looking for it. Moving it out there would be like changing the programming time for a new series with a small fanbase...

The ring of death.

"Kyle, if I can get just one episode of Family Guy pulled, then the whole show will go down the tubes. Let's ride our Big Wheels to Hollywood!"

[poetinahat]

So, is the poll issue resolved, then?

I'll put up a separate poll - with a link outside the citrus wall - about rebuilding the forum.

[Writer???]

Just an additional thought: the games and exercises are chocolate milk. They draw a lot of folks attention. However, they usually de-evolve. More office party or coffee break that substance.

And that's where I'd put more Google ads. :-)

jt

I came to poetry section through the games and exercises. It was an easier way to enter this forum than just a cold posting out of nowhere in the critique or chap book section.

I go back often and see many doing the same. I haven't seen anything de-volving or turning to discussion or arguing, maybe I just haven't been to those threads but that has not been my experience.

[jst5150]

Writer brings up a good point. It's one worth mentioning again. Here's how he said it: "It was an easier way to enter this forum than just a cold posting out of nowhere." I've brought it up, too. It may have sounded like a joke. It wasn't. In a nutshell, this is it:

Poetry is intimate.

Now, here's how I said it: "I can't tell you how many times a good poem has gotten me laid or, at least, in the 'laid' wheelhouse." Now, we don;t give novels as make-up gifts. We don't pass short stories in class. We don;t scratch novels between classes then hand them to out girlfriends before the bell rings. No novels are in any greeting card I've read.

To repeat, poems are intimate. The people who write them believe that, too. People do get that intimate with their work. Even here. So, sharing it in an area reserved for other people who enjoy that intimacy makes fine sense. Viewed another way, it's Jerry Seinfeld saying, "I don't want to become that guy. I have to get all sorts of weird robes and oils and lotions and werid lighting for my bedroom."

Put the workshop in the open, it dies. It dies because the intimacy of the room -- and the opportunity for the poet to get laid -- go away.

jt

[JRH]

Let's get a few things straight.

Poetry is not just an outlet for expressing one's feelings, experience, and philosophical thought, (although it can be any of these things, and all at the same time). Above all, it is a CRAFT, a learned skill dedicated to COMMUNICATING all of the above as clearly and universally as possible.

People have NOT turned their backs on POETRY, They have rejected what the Establishment, (which is to say MODERNISTS and their MFA compatriots) offer through those journals, and publications that they control, (which is the vast majority of them) and which are dedicated to maintaining THEIR Poetic concepts.

People still want POETRY as much as ever, and that's apparent in venues like this, in the success of SCAMS like Poetry.com and in the lyrics of our Songs, most of which can only offer Verse that is limited in scope by the nature of those outlets and the lack of training, understanding of the Craft and the Craftsmanship, itself, (or lack of it), exhibited by those who use those outlets.

The natural divisions that the Poetry Forum is set up into are appropriate, but they are not being utilized properly.

The "Critique Forum" is and should be a venue for experimentation and is, in fact, a Workshop" where Criticism should be expected but which should always be Constuctive and based on analysis of what the Critic feels the the Poet is trying to accomplish rather than on his/her own biases. (if rewrites are utilized to make one's points, they should be focused and explained so the writer can understand the reasoning behind them and how they apply to his/her original intent).

The "Chapbook Forum" should be devoted to "finished" Poems which do NOT need critique, (in the writer's estimation), but DO need FEEDBACK (and much more than currently exists), so that the Poet can see to what extent his works have been effective in communicating with others, and if not why not, (akthough for the most part rewrites would NOT be appropriate here.

The "Discussion Forum" as it currently exists, should be focused to a FAR greater extent on Analysis of the tools necessary to "Craftsmanship", relative to various forms, pointers on "how to Analyse" a Poem, and studies of what Principles are involved in crafting Poetry of various schools.

The "Games Forum" is probably adequate as it is as a outlet for "playing around with words and forms primarily for enjoyment" and should, for the most part, be free of critiques, although some of the threads within, such as those on Haiku, Aphorisms or Other Specific forms should be devoted to serious efforts as opposed to mere experimentation and, as these are valid and accepted forms of Poetry, in and of themselves, and deserve the same consideration as Poems posted in the "Chapbook Forum".

All of these Forums should be Password Protected in one form another in order to protect those who are seriously aiming at having their Poems published, not for the purpose of limiting access, but in recognition that an increasing number of venues, (such as Poetry Magazine) that have taken the stand that any poem posted on the internet that is not protected has, in fact, been PUBLISHED and is not acceptable for their consideration. (It's a Phoney argument designed to make it easier for them ignore submissions by those outside of the Establishment, but it remains a very real consideration for those who want to break into those markets.)

The truth is that Forums like this are, in fact, primarily used by those endeavoring to write Poetry rather than as showcases intended for the general public to read, (although they should not prove an impediment for those who only wish to peruse what is being written.) and that can be made in any introductory information on the main site page.

In any case, we should be doing all we can to work together to help each other learn our Craft and improve our level of Craftmanship

Write On,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[Writer???]

Here here! Well said. A very whole-hearted DITTO to you. sir!

[Rivana]

Well said Jim, very nicely written.