How things are. What happens. How it turns out

[HConn]

In the "Improvements to your craft" thread, James A. Ritchie said:

From my experience, what is usually lacking right out of the gate is knowing what a good story is....

This is a pretty interesting topic, and I'd like to explore it further. My take on "good story" is taken from Jim Shooter and you can read it in the subject header.

I'm convinced it's not a question of certain story elements being well-developed. I'm sure it's something else.

How do you know what a good story is? How does it feel to have one?

[SRHowen]

hmm, lots of thought into this one.

For me--I just knew when i had gotten it right. Kinda like, how do you know when you are in love?

I liked all my books, and as I wrote them I thought they were great, but honestly when I went back and read them I knew they were lacking even though I could not put my finger on the why of it.

Friends and readers made nice noises--umm, great idea. Great lead character --on so on. But when I hit on the "one" I got comments that were more honest. readers got drawn in and ranted about things that happened to the character and so on.

When I reread the story I knew it would be the one to make it--how does it feel :snoopy :jump :hat

That about covers it. I felt sad when the story was done with. But i also felt thrilled with it. I could say I have finally done it--and I did;t have to convince myself even a little that it was a good story. No, Yeah there are a few problems but hey the rest is good--no moments of doubt.

But most of all I felt very sad for the writing to come to an end.

Not much help. Sheesh

Shawn

[macalicious731]

I don't know if this answers the question or not...

I think I have a good story if it's something I would want to read or watch myself - something that would entertain me. Plus, if I'm spending so much time on developing it, let's just hope it's good. (;

[maestrowork]

To me a good story is one that keeps you turning pages to find out more -- be it good characters that you feel attached to (and thus want to find out what happens to them), or the story is so riveting/bizarre/interesting that you can't stop reading. A good story entertains and enlightens at the same time.

As a writer, you don't ALWAYS know if your readers would be the same enthusiastic about the story as you are. That's why we have betas -- carefully selected to reflect our target audience -- and tell us if the story is good or bust.

Even best-selling authors write crap once in a while -- but they're so successful that sometimes their agents/editors won't tell them the story sucks.

[vstrauss]

As a writer...a good story is one that snags me. I have lots of ideas, but mostly they pop up and pass on. The ones that are good are the ones that pop up and stick around, that for whatever reason compel my interest and keep me thinking about them. For me at least, this doesn't happen all that often.

As a reader...a good story is one that works on its own terms and holds my interest and/or excites my admiration. Everything from stories that are hardly stories at all, to hyper-complex thrillers.

- Victoria

[HConn]

I thought I responded in this thread, but my post seems to have disappeared.

I suspected the answer was in the writer's gut reaction. Do people have ways of "enhancing" your feeling about a story? Of turning a story you kind of like into one that really rings your bell?

Thanks.

[evelinaburney]

This is a great question, something I've puzzled over for some time. The best advice I've gotten about this is that something has to change. "No change, no story." The change doesn't have to be drastic - it can even (apparently) be a change in the reader, like a shift in how the reader views or judges the characters...

The main way I can tell whether something's a "good story" is by readers' reactions. If people read it and tell me they were interested in the character and what had happened to them and were drawn into reading more, that's best measurement I've found. And they don't always say this - it's easy to tell whether that's the case or whether they just felt lukewarm about it. It's otherwise very difficult to for me to gauge whether something I've written pulls people in to read more.

Shawn has a point though - if something is that good of a story, I expect I would just *know*.

[mammamaia]

it's like justice stewart's definition of obscenity:

'I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it!'

[maestrowork]

One of my betas could not finish my story -- she found it too personal and emotionally raw for her. I actually took it as a compliment.

[Jamesaritchie]

If it were easy to define what a good story is, it wouldn't take so long for new writers to learn how to tell one. Even many editors simply define a good story as one that has "something extra."

I spend two weeks every spring, and then two more in late summer, doing nothing but intensely studying story and structure and dialogue. After several years of doing so, I'm still not sure I'm anywhere near knowing the answers.

Writing is the easy part. Telling a good story is where it gets tough.

[Andrew Spriggs]

If you can find a website with like cliches for characters, settings, situations, and make sure that your project does not use too many of the bad cliches--then you're okay. Even asking a friend what they hate about a particular genre can provide results.

If it feels great to you, then go for it.

[Akuma]

For me, a good story is a good plot, and many other things. It has to be well written and a genre that I like. The combination keeps me turning the pages up to midnight. A good example of this for me is The Wheel of Time series. It's just addictive for me! :coffee

[Shrimpson]

"Vividness. That's the word so many beginning writers entirely miss on. The plot may be immaculately crafted, the characters may be larger-than-life, the premise may be earth-shattering.. but the story will still be too bland and boring to read.

Often we forget that every book - just like every life - is just a collection of short stories.

Look at any page in your book. What does it do? "Moves the story along" is a terrible answer. Each page must stand on its own. Each page must contain an entertaining story - the kind of story you'd be dying to tell your friends over the weekend, if it actually happened to you.

If you approach each scene in your novel as a short story that MUST stand on its own (not plot-wise, of course) your writing will improve tremendously. Each event in your book must be vivid, must produce a fairly powerful emotional (or perhaps intellectual or gustatory or whatnot) effect on your character, and, by extention, on your reader. "

I'm quoting my dear professor here, and I do believe his advice has helped me tremendously.

[prosemonkey]

To know what a good story is, I read joseph campbell and watched a buttload of b-movies. One thing that helped me was to look at bad or mediocre stories and try to figure out what elements in the stories were strong, and try to remake them in my head-- this helped put me in touch with a simple truth that 85% of a good story is in the telling. Take "The Blair Witch Project." The concept was not really all that new or interesting-- kids get lost in the woods an ultimately killed by a witch-- but they found a new way to tell an old story using cinematic first person perspective, and it was hugely popular and successful. Now, if that other 15%-- your raw idea-- sucks, you ain't got a shot. But all the bad hollywood remakes should suggest that the tale is in the spinning.

[mammamaia]

you wouldn't be speed from the imdb board, would you?... if not, it's a pretty major coincidence that she just posted the same 3-part story basics you used in your thread title!

love and hugs, maia

[Maryn]

I probably should have credited HConn in the IMDb post, but I'm reasonably sure the phrasing of the age-old concept isn't new--so I snitched it! Mwah-ha-ha-ha!

You want a credit, HConn? It'd be my pleasure to edit my message at the other site if the phrasing is yours. Not that anybody there pays any attention to my fiction ramblings... but hey, it could happen!

Maryn of Late

[HConn]

I'm not sure what was posted over on imdb, but if it's just the subject header, then it should definitely be credited to its creator. But that would be Jim Shooter, a long-time comics writer and editor.

If it's the body of the post that's been reposted, it doesn't need a credit.

[Maryn]

HConn, thanks for providing the source of the perfect anybody-can-understand-it quote. I've added Shooter's name to my post at the other site--and given you a nod, too, for coming up with the answer so quickly. I appreciate it.

Now, of course, I'm trying to figure out where I first heard "How things are, what happens, and how it turns out." I think it was years back--any idea when it appeared in print? Don't go to any trouble to find out, but if you happen to recall, it'd be nice to know.

Maryn

[HConn]

It seems I misquoted Mr. Shooter. Here's the real quote:

"... what it was, what happened, how'd it come out."

From this page:

Jim Shooter's How to Write Comics (http://www.komix.it/article.php?sid=2372)

It's a transcript of a speech, but it's interesting stuff.

[mammamaia]

am i confused enough yet?... hope you're not ticked 'cause i outed ya, speed/maryn:smack ... hugs, m

[Maryn]

I'm not the least bit annoyed at being "outed"--since neither Speed nor Maryn is my real name. (Actually, I'm the governor of New Jersey...)

[mammamaia]

or are you christine whitman?:gone