A little advice

[citizen_erased]

Hello. I'd just like to say that I know what I write is down to me, my decision etc however!!!

This chapter i'm writing at the moment, is a big one. I'm killing someone off, someone who has to die and is a bad man. He is going to be murdered, now i'm just wondering what your opinions are on gruesome deaths. I could just have him stabbed and job done, he's dead or I could make it a bit horrific and shocking. Of course without knowing the story so far, it's probably harder to make a judgment but i'm fancying a bit of a shocking kill, I just wondered on people's opinions...and also putting off writing it;)

Thanks for reading. Andy

[CaroGirl]

If you think it should be brutal, write it the way you want and then see if it works with the rest of the story. If it doesn't work, rewrite it another way. Try, try again!

[Willowmound]

citizen, quit stalling. Pick one!

You know which one you want to go with. No, you do. Go with that one.

[Azraelsbane]

I prefer brutal deaths.

One of my chars is crucified upside-down over the door of his mother's home, and his three-year-old daughter is pinned to his chest with a dagger.

Another of my chars is chased down by her deranged brother, raped, and skewered on a pike.

It really depends on the character dying, and what they deserve. ;) So, as you said, up to you.

[reenkam]

One of my chars is crucified upside-down over the door of his mother's home, and his three-year-old daughter is pinned to his chest with a dagger.

Another of my chars is chased down by her deranged brother, raped, and skewered on a pike.

:Jaw:

and I thought the deaths I wrote about where bad...mine could be shown on disney in comparison! (well, maybe not...)

but yes, i think you should go with the brutal.

[citizen_erased]

I prefer brutal deaths.

One of my chars is crucified upside-down over the door of his mother's home, and his three-year-old daughter is pinned to his chest with a dagger.

Another of my chars is chased down by her deranged brother, raped, and skewered on a pike.

It really depends on the character dying, and what they deserve. ;) So, as you said, up to you.

Crikey! Well I don't think he deserves something like that but I think brutality is the way forward

[LJ Hall]

I'd go with whatever fits the style of the novel. If it's not a horror or action or suspense, a brutal, graphic murder might feel out of place.

[Azraelsbane]

Crikey! Well I don't think he deserves something like that but I think brutality is the way forward

Well, there you have it. :) Brutality it is.

And I don't believe anyone deserves the deaths I described, but when you have a deranged psychokiller in the protags' family, you might as well use him to his full potential. As a note, even my main antagonist was shocked and appalled by the lengths his lackey (read grandson) had gone to.

[citizen_erased]

Well, there you have it. :) Brutality it is.

I think a brutal death is my killer making a statement, so that's what i'll go for.

[JasonChirevas]

I prefer brutal deaths.

One of my chars is crucified upside-down over the door of his mother's home, and his three-year-old daughter is pinned to his chest with a dagger.

Another of my chars is chased down by her deranged brother, raped, and skewered on a pike.

It really depends on the character dying, and what they deserve. ;) So, as you said, up to you.

Wow, that's a book I would never read ever. LOL.

Which is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, I know, but it struck me as funny that that was my first thought.

-Jason

[Azraelsbane]

Wow, that's a book I would never read ever. LOL.

Which is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, I know, but it struck me as funny that that was my first thought.

-Jason

:cry:

[Williebee]

Kind of depends on the style and genre, the tone of the story.

Ask it a different way? What is going to satisfy Dear Reader?

If he's a really bad, evil guy, slipping and falling on the ice isn't going to leave anybody satisfied.

[GeorgeK]

I prefer brutal deaths.

One of my chars is crucified upside-down over the door of his mother's home, and his three-year-old daughter is pinned to his chest with a dagger. .

How do you explain the physics of that? Obviously you paraphrased it to the point that someone would have to nitpick. A dagger's blade length is maximum 12 inches. A skinny 3 year old is going to weigh on the order of at least 25 pounds. The anterior to posterior chest diameter of a very skinny adult man is going to be minimum 9 inches, which leaves at most three inches with which to no only impale some part of the child (I'm assuming at the forearm between the bones, since that would be the skinniest place that might hold the weight) as well as sink the blade into something behind the man's body to support the weight of the child. (I'm assuming the crucifixion is holding up the man) A body does not have the structural strength to have a blade support anything but itself, if even that, depending upon it's sharpness and weight, nor will it have the structural integrety to act as a fulcrum in that situation unless it (the man) was frozen prior to impalement or was driven in at a very acute angle which means something longer than a dagger. The old triangular bayonets, (WW-I era) which were 18 inches long and caried in a scabbard at one's side might work. However that is the shortest thing I can think of that might...Or you could use a sharpened fire poker, that would be long enough and the baddy might have even used it for branding purposes.

[Saundra Julian]

:e2thud: Eww... A very compelling argument but much more information than I need on the subject.

[Sassee]

How do you explain the physics of that? Obviously you paraphrased it to the point that someone would have to nitpick. A dagger's blade length is maximum 12 inches. A skinny 3 year old is going to weigh on the order of at least 25 pounds. The anterior to posterior chest diameter of a very skinny adult man is going to be minimum 9 inches, which leaves at most three inches with which to no only impale some part of the child (I'm assuming at the forearm between the bones, since that would be the skinniest place that might hold the weight) as well as sink the blade into something behind the man's body to support the weight of the child. (I'm assuming the crucifixion is holding up the man) A body does not have the structural strength to have a blade support anything but itself, if even that, depending upon it's sharpness and weight, nor will it have the structural integrety to act as a fulcrum in that situation unless it (the man) was frozen prior to impalement or was driven in at a very acute angle which means something longer than a dagger. The old triangular bayonets, (WW-I era) which were 18 inches long and caried in a scabbard at one's side might work. However that is the shortest thing I can think of that might...Or you could use a sharpened fire poker, that would be long enough and the baddy might have even used it for branding purposes.

I am totally writing down your name if I ever have a question about blades. Or skewering people.

[Shady Lane]

How do you explain the physics of that? Obviously you paraphrased it to the point that someone would have to nitpick. A dagger's blade length is maximum 12 inches. A skinny 3 year old is going to weigh on the order of at least 25 pounds. The anterior to posterior chest diameter of a very skinny adult man is going to be minimum 9 inches, which leaves at most three inches with which to no only impale some part of the child (I'm assuming at the forearm between the bones, since that would be the skinniest place that might hold the weight) as well as sink the blade into something behind the man's body to support the weight of the child. (I'm assuming the crucifixion is holding up the man) A body does not have the structural strength to have a blade support anything but itself, if even that, depending upon it's sharpness and weight, nor will it have the structural integrety to act as a fulcrum in that situation unless it (the man) was frozen prior to impalement or was driven in at a very acute angle which means something longer than a dagger. The old triangular bayonets, (WW-I era) which were 18 inches long and caried in a scabbard at one's side might work. However that is the shortest thing I can think of that might...Or you could use a sharpened fire poker, that would be long enough and the baddy might have even used it for branding purposes.

Oh shit.

[wee]

I could just have him stabbed and job done, he's dead or I could make it a bit horrific and shocking.

Just me, personally, I've read stabbings that were so gruesome they turned my stomach. And I would hate to die that way. Think about it: it isn't fast. You're going to bleed to death, in a lot of pain. I picture a horrific stabbing being one where the victim knows he will die, but can't stop trying to save himself & the scene fades to black with him dead, clutching a phone, & a 911 operator in the background saying, "hello, sir? are you there?" So close ... so far away.

The bigger question is: WHO is going to kill him, WHAT are that person's motivations, and HOW would that person do it? A revenge killing is going to be worse than a simple angry killing. The more terrible the motivation, the worse it will be ... after all, a murder victim doesn't choose his death; his killer does.



waaaaayyyy too much L&O:CI.....


wee

[amber_grosjean]

I would let the characters tell you how to do it. If they really didn't like this man, would they want him to suffer? You said he was bad, how bad? Go with your gut first, think about it later. When you edit, look over that scene. Does it work with the genre, the style you chose, the characters' actions? Keep the flow moving at the same pace and you should be all right.

Amber

[citizen_erased]

How do you explain the physics of that? Obviously you paraphrased it to the point that someone would have to nitpick. A dagger's blade length is maximum 12 inches. A skinny 3 year old is going to weigh on the order of at least 25 pounds. The anterior to posterior chest diameter of a very skinny adult man is going to be minimum 9 inches, which leaves at most three inches with which to no only impale some part of the child (I'm assuming at the forearm between the bones, since that would be the skinniest place that might hold the weight) as well as sink the blade into something behind the man's body to support the weight of the child. (I'm assuming the crucifixion is holding up the man) A body does not have the structural strength to have a blade support anything but itself, if even that, depending upon it's sharpness and weight, nor will it have the structural integrety to act as a fulcrum in that situation unless it (the man) was frozen prior to impalement or was driven in at a very acute angle which means something longer than a dagger. The old triangular bayonets, (WW-I era) which were 18 inches long and caried in a scabbard at one's side might work. However that is the shortest thing I can think of that might...Or you could use a sharpened fire poker, that would be long enough and the baddy might have even used it for branding purposes.

here's a question about blades and things. Is it possible to cut through someones achilles tendon? To snap it?

[Azraelsbane]

How do you explain the physics of that? Obviously you paraphrased it to the point that someone would have to nitpick. A dagger's blade length is maximum 12 inches. A skinny 3 year old is going to weigh on the order of at least 25 pounds. The anterior to posterior chest diameter of a very skinny adult man is going to be minimum 9 inches, which leaves at most three inches with which to no only impale some part of the child (I'm assuming at the forearm between the bones, since that would be the skinniest place that might hold the weight) as well as sink the blade into something behind the man's body to support the weight of the child. (I'm assuming the crucifixion is holding up the man) A body does not have the structural strength to have a blade support anything but itself, if even that, depending upon it's sharpness and weight, nor will it have the structural integrety to act as a fulcrum in that situation unless it (the man) was frozen prior to impalement or was driven in at a very acute angle which means something longer than a dagger. The old triangular bayonets, (WW-I era) which were 18 inches long and caried in a scabbard at one's side might work. However that is the shortest thing I can think of that might...Or you could use a sharpened fire poker, that would be long enough and the baddy might have even used it for branding purposes.

I was actually just trying not to give a history and geography of the death, but here we go.

It's a fantasy series, so modern sword/dagger lengths aren't really 100% appropriate. It doesn't have to be a dagger, it could be a short sword or a poker I guess, but dagger was my first thought, and out of probably 20 or 30 people that know the story, you're the first person that has mentioned the physics of it.

I have a replica of Sting (from LotR) on my wall, and it is supposed to be an elven dagger. The blade is probably about 18 inches long, and not that I've tried, but I could definitely see a small child skewered to a wall with that thing. The man in question (her father) has been tortured and starved for a long period of time. He is very emaciated, so it's practically bones, organs, and nothing more. Also, you're dealing with a race of immortals that is pretty powerful, so I bet the bastard that did it would find someway to make it stick.

[wee]

I prefer brutal deaths.

One of my chars is crucified upside-down over the door of his mother's home, and his three-year-old daughter is pinned to his chest with a dagger.

Another of my chars is chased down by her deranged brother, raped, and skewered on a pike.


Umm, I think I read & write in a slightly different genre. :Jaw:

[Azraelsbane]

here's a question about blades and things. Is it possible to cut through someones achilles tendon? To snap it?

It is definitely possible to cut through someone's achilles tendon, but the person would likely have to be in a roll attack, considering how close to the ground, behind the person they would need to be to make the slice.

[citizen_erased]

It is definitely possible to cut through someone's achilles tendon, but the person would likely have to be in a roll attack, considering how close to the ground, behind the person they would need to be to make the slice.

Say the victim is on the floor, face first after being tackled and the attacker stands behind him. He could do it then? I dunno why but i've just got the feeling this has to be done as part of this death

[Azraelsbane]

Say the victim is on the floor, face first after being tackled and the attacker stands behind him. He could do it then? I dunno why but i've just got the feeling this has to be done as part of this death

Yeah, it could be done. It would be painful, but beyond that is there a real reason that particularly needs to be done for the death? If he's already on the ground, does he have a chance of getting back up, and this stops him? I'd just wonder why this specific injury (so far from being fatal) would be done just prior to a killing, if the person was already subdued. Just my thoughts. :)

[citizen_erased]

torture method? I dunno. I want the killer to make a statement, so later when people hear about the description of the murder (in the novel) they will be thinking...Crikey! (enter swear words) And now, the scenario I have written, he has a knife in the back of his leg so he isn't getting up, and if he does he aint going anywhere fast.

[Azraelsbane]

torture method? I dunno. I want the killer to make a statement, so later when people hear about the description of the murder (in the novel) they will be thinking...Crikey! (enter swear words) And now, the scenario I have written, he has a knife in the back of his leg so he isn't getting up, and if he does he aint going anywhere fast.

Hmm, ok. I can buy that the guy wanted to torture the victim, but cutting the achilles tendon seems a bit mild for torture (though depending on your genre and the rest of the book it may not be).

Here's an example of torture in my storyline: create a knife/dagger/sword (I'm covering all my bases here) wound, pack it with salt, cauterize the wound with the salt packed within. Rinse and repeat.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but when I think of explaining a torturous death, I wouldn't want people to gasp and then go "Now where's the achilles tendon again?" ;)

[Glenda]

Ok, this sounds more gruesome than brutal? *shuddering*

[Wolvel]

The question I have is the mentality of the person or persons doing the killing.

Are they themselves a brutal type?

Or are they doing this to be rid of the bad guy?

[citizen_erased]

I'm going to write the scene tonight as i'm in York for a few days (my setting) and i'm home alone as all my housemates are at work so i'll post some details of the death on here. He's not going to get shockingly tortured, but its going to be a few injuries before the death blow...I tihnk so anyway. Might go for a walk and check out my scene of the crime as well.

[NeuroFizz]

If an Achilles tendon is being severed, realize that the posterior calf muscles (gastrocnemius and soleus groups) will end up as a large lump just under the back of the knee. When intact, these muscles are under some tension, even when relaxed, so it is a strange injury to witness. It would certainly immobilize the victim. The problem of having to be on the ground to inflict that kind of wound--that assumes the victim is standing...

As for a dagger or sword being able to hold a dead-weight carcass, even of a child, by jabbing it though the body and into a wall. It won't hold, unless you find some way to buttress the dagger/sword. Sorry, but that would be a book-toss worthy mistake. My guess is there are ways to make a murder scene heinous without defying the laws of physics, specifically gravity. Do it on another world with a lesser gravitational force and you're okay.

Give it try at home. Get a watermelon (which will be a fraction of the weight of a child), and see if you can stick it to the wall by impaling it with a sword (or pole) that goes into a wall. If you succeed, hang weights on the watermelon until you approach the weight of the child.

[Azraelsbane]

::sigh:: You guys are going to make me take a 25 lb piece of meat and stick it through a solid object with one of my swords, aren't you? I'm sorry to tell you, but at an angle, buried deep enough, it would hold 25 lbs.

Also I think that what people are missing is that this is on a roof (read slant). It's not a straight drop.

[KTC]

How do you explain the physics of that? Obviously you paraphrased it to the point that someone would have to nitpick. A dagger's blade length is maximum 12 inches. A skinny 3 year old is going to weigh on the order of at least 25 pounds. The anterior to posterior chest diameter of a very skinny adult man is going to be minimum 9 inches, which leaves at most three inches with which to no only impale some part of the child (I'm assuming at the forearm between the bones, since that would be the skinniest place that might hold the weight) as well as sink the blade into something behind the man's body to support the weight of the child. (I'm assuming the crucifixion is holding up the man) A body does not have the structural strength to have a blade support anything but itself, if even that, depending upon it's sharpness and weight, nor will it have the structural integrety to act as a fulcrum in that situation unless it (the man) was frozen prior to impalement or was driven in at a very acute angle which means something longer than a dagger. The old triangular bayonets, (WW-I era) which were 18 inches long and caried in a scabbard at one's side might work. However that is the shortest thing I can think of that might...Or you could use a sharpened fire poker, that would be long enough and the baddy might have even used it for branding purposes.

WOW!

[davids]

I prefer brutal deaths.

One of my chars is crucified upside-down over the door of his mother's home, and his three-year-old daughter is pinned to his chest with a dagger.

Another of my chars is chased down by her deranged brother, raped, and skewered on a pike.

It really depends on the character dying, and what they deserve. ;) So, as you said, up to you.


Where the hell's the damn book?

See for anyone who has any idea-um-ah-it does not matter if it is written in such a fashion as to create MONEY! Take note of above-that will create interest I should think like Oh Shit I aint gonna read that sick crap-or Oh Shit I gotta gem me that damned book-wow-so you see it is all mathematackical really-one loves-ones hates-even at 10 to one odds against you got a damned good book and bucks in yer pantys! Please ignore this post as I have no idea-I just write shit!

[Azraelsbane]

I just write shit!

:Hug2:

[reenkam]

::sigh:: You guys are going to make me take a 25 lb piece of meat and stick it through a solid object with one of my swords, aren't you? I'm sorry to tell you, but at an angle, buried deep enough, it would hold 25 lbs.

Also I think that what people are missing is that this is on a roof (read slant). It's not a straight drop.

Yeah, if the sword's at an angle, why wouldn't it hold? Maybe if it were a flimsy wall, but a nicer one?

And even if it really wouldn't, would someone stop reading a book because of that? I'd ask why they were so focused on the physics of the event and not the actual event itself.

[Azraelsbane]

And even if it really wouldn't, would someone stop reading a book because of that? I'd ask why they were so focused on the physics of the event and not the actual event itself.

I would hope they would be focused on the event itself, but if not, it really wouldn't matter to me. That's in the 4th (and last) book in my series. If they get that far and decide they don't want to finish the last 100 pages... ::shrug:: No skin off my back. ;)

[citizen_erased]

Perhaps I won't cut his achilles, just stab him alot or something. I'll have a think now and get it done tonight

[Azraelsbane]

Perhaps I won't cut his achilles, just stab him alot or something. I'll have a think now and get it done tonight

Hehe. Just stab him a lot or something. That made me laugh. :) I think doing some bad things to the guy is a good way to go, if your killer is trying to make a statement. I would just be careful of being too descriptive in regards to which tendons are cut and such. Really, that's my only beef with your first idea. If you just say that the guy slashed the back of his leg open, that would work better imo, and not force the reader to think too hard.

[citizen_erased]

If you just say that the guy slashed the back of his leg open, that would work better imo, and not force the reader to think too hard.

Good thinking that. I could have him just slashing around. Well I look forward to this now. Poor Leo!

[NeuroFizz]

::sigh:: You guys are going to make me take a 25 lb piece of meat and stick it through a solid object with one of my swords, aren't you?
Yes, please, and report back to us skeptics.

...would someone stop reading a book because of that? I'd ask why they were so focused on the physics of the event and not the actual event itself.
We ask our readers to suspend disbelief in the big stuff when we write fiction. If we also expect them to suspend it for the little stuff (like physics, human anatomy and physiology, things like that), we border on asking too much of them. Accuracy in the little details is just good writing. And, yes. You will get "fan mail" from readers who will tell you exactly where you screwed up those little things, probably out of proportion to the positive "fan mail". And likely you won't sell your next book to those people, either.

[NeuroFizz]

Perhaps I won't cut his achilles, just stab him alot or something. I'll have a think now and get it done tonight
If you know what comes of it, why not leave it in. It's a dramatic injury, and one that could serve your story well.

[davids]

Plus when the tendon is cut you have to waddle around in great pain which most observers find highly amusicating-comic relief is always good in a torture scene-I do love a bit of it in mine! I write shit!

[Azraelsbane]

Yes, please, and report back to us skeptics.



My father has agreed to help me do it with his bayonet tomorrow at our family bbq. I should have a verdict by Sunday at the latest.

[citizen_erased]

Just like to say thanks to everyone who helped me with this chapter. I will finish it as soon as I can. Thank you !!

[wayndom]

Whenever I have violence in my stories (which is fairly regularly), I always do it realistically but matter-of-factly, hopefully the way a doctor or coroner might describe it.

But never "in loving detail" (a phrase I got from an editor, describing his reaction to overly-violent writing by borderline psychopaths).

[GeorgeK]

here's a question about blades and things. Is it possible to cut through someones achilles tendon? To snap it?

Certainly, it was a method of permanent hobbling among some American Native tribes when they didn't want someone to run away. The person could still walk, but only slowly and very deliberately. The achilles is among the strongest tendons, but a sharp knife will sever it very quickly. A live tendon is easier to cut than one that's been preserved in say formaldehyde. They are a real pain to repair too. (I'm a retired surgeon. You have to be able to detach your emotions and think clinically to be able to try and put someone back together after stuff like this happens. I also live on a farm. We do our own butchering of pigs and sheep)

[GeorgeK]

::sigh:: Also I think that what people are missing is that this is on a roof (read slant). It's not a straight drop.

Ah! big difference, especially if it's a non specified low pitch roof. (Modern low pitch roof composed of standard shingles, tar paper and 3/4 inch plywood.) Then it's just the question of the length.

[GeorgeK]

Where the hell's the damn book?

See for anyone who has any idea-um-ah-it does not matter if it is written in such a fashion as to create MONEY! Take note of above-that will create interest I should think like Oh Shit I aint gonna read that sick crap-or Oh Shit I gotta gem me that damned book-wow-so you see it is all mathematackical really-one loves-ones hates-even at 10 to one odds against you got a damned good book and bucks in yer pantys! Please ignore this post as I have no idea-I just write shit!


So you are saying bad press will drum up interest, like films that get "banned"...probably

[GeorgeK]

Yeah, if the sword's at an angle, why wouldn't it hold? Maybe if it were a flimsy wall, but a nicer one?

And even if it really wouldn't, would someone stop reading a book because of that? I'd ask why they were so focused on the physics of the event and not the actual event itself.


Yes, unless there is something to explain things, like magic, or the low pitched roof etc., these type of things that are so poorly understood will definitely detract from its readability. It's like a B movie. There is a phase somewhere between believability and outlandish comedy where things just are not interesting because they are just bad enough to be boring, but not bad enough to laugh at.

[GeorgeK]

I have a replica of Sting (from LotR) on my wall, and it is supposed to be an elven dagger. The blade is probably about 18 inches long, and not that I've tried, but I could definitely see a small child skewered to a wall with that thing. .

A fan of BudK ? I don't have any of the movie replicas, but my guess is those are for show only. Their "Arkansas Toothpick" is a good "stickin knife" for butchering pigs. At 12 inches it's enough to get the heart and or aorta, but in now way long enough to penetrate through the chest, yet alone impale anything.

[GeorgeK]

Whenever I have violence in my stories (which is fairly regularly), I always do it realistically but matter-of-factly, hopefully the way a doctor or coroner might describe it.

But never "in loving detail" (a phrase I got from an editor, describing his reaction to overly-violent writing by borderline psychopaths).

You don't have to be a borderline psychopath to understand the mechanisms of injury. For a surgeon, you have to understand the injury to repair the damage. Then again, I've not read the things that your editor rejected, and don't know how "lovingly" they were described.

[davids]

So you are saying bad press will drum up interest, like films that get "banned"...probably


Sure why the hell not? It is business-oh Christ whad that bugger say-he aint not no arteest-he is rich-damn him he just writes shit anyhow the bugger!