Lack of good behavior.

[Joe Calabrese]

Hi all.

Some of you may notice that I just deleted (at the OP's request) a thread where a new member introduced himself just to say "hi."

Some other members here (who will for now remain nameless and forgiven), took it upon themselves to check out the OP's website (not asked or solicited to do so by the OP), and then bashed him and his production company.

Whether or not it the OP's company is legitimate or not is not your call. You should not make such assumptions unless you have had personal dealings with them.

Many companies, especially those starting out, look for revenue in a variety of ways to make their films. Sam Rami solicited dentists to make Evil Dead. Does that make him a scam artist?

Aronofski sold thank you credits for PI, did that make him a scam artist?

No, because the films were made and sold, but if those films didn't sell, it wouldn't have been their fault and certainly wouldn't have been an intentional scam.

The same holds true for this person/company in question. You do not know the person/company's intentions and as such should not make assumptions unless you have had personal dealings that can enlighten the rest of us. AND ONLY IF SOLICITED BY THE OP, which this person did not do.

So I ask you that, yes, you may voice your opinions when needed or when in response to something posted that is questionable, but DO NOT go out of your way bash them, slander them or do anything that makes you look like an ass and more important makes us all look like unprofessional goofs, especially when all the person said was "hi."

I am afraid that this person may no longer visit this forum and I do not blame him. Let us only hope that this person would not have turned out to be a valuable member and asset to the forum. The World may never know....

As for the OP, if you read this, I apologize for this forum and rest assured that this type of behavior is not commonplace.

[zeprosnepsid]

I do think you are overreacting a bit. I don't think sb was overreacting. But whatever, it's one person's opinion.

And people are always like this around here, in that way it was a very apt welcome! =)

[Joe Calabrese]

Overreacting? You didn't get the email from the OP.

Yes, we can be cold, heartless and cynical here, but people don't usually quit us after one post.

[cynicallad]

Overreacting? You didn't get the email from the OP.

Yes, we can be cold, heartless and cynical here, but people don't usually quit us after one post.

Does that mean the username "story" is avail? You should put it up on ebay and send the proceeds to charity.

[zeprosnepsid]

I didn't know he had e-mailed you. And true it's not a good sign to quit after one post (although others have had similar treatment and stuck it out -- look at Hobble! Who we are of course very happy to have despite occasional disagreements).

I would be a lot easier on the OP if had bother to defend the charges against him in the thread. Then everything could have been easily figured out. There would have been apologies and all kinds of niceties. But his seeming unwillingness to do so only made me more skeptical about someone I was already pretty skeptical about (I had the same reactions to the website, but didn't bother to post in the thread because I didn't entirely see the point...). But now that you are taking his side over the side of regular posters here, I feel the need to say all the things I didn't find it worth saying originally!

He did more than say 'hi', he said I'm a producer and this is my company, to which many people replied 'fyi your company looks vaguely like a scam'. If he had then replied, 'oh, sorry about that, it isn't, these were my intentions...' then all would have been fine. You note in your first post that we didn't know his intentions. But he didn't state them either and in fact refused to do so when asked -- so what were we to think?

I also don't think what he is doing is anything in the realm of similar to what Raimi and Aronofsky did. Aronofsky got money from family and friends, he wasn't soliciting on the internet. Raimi is not the only filmmaker to have gone the dentist route. And he asked them if they wanted to invest in a movie with a stipulation that their money would be returned if the movie was not made. He did not charge them a submission fee. If the poster had come introduced himself and linked to a page about how he was seeking investments (we may have still laughed at him) but we wouldn't have called it a scam. Especially if he showed a business plan or any information about what he was doing. Sam Raimi and the Coens and all those who went to dentists and the like had business plans. And gave out information freely instead of hiding it.

Anyway, this really isn't a big deal at all. The original poster's post could have been crafted a little better (implying he was the 'resident producer' turned people off, even though he seemly meant he was the resident producer at his film company, his using it as the subject was confusing). His website could have been clearer (although he admits it's under construction). And most importantly, he could have answered the questions posed to him. But of course, the members of the board could have posed them more gracefully. Everyone is at fault, and now I am too, for making this big fuss about the whole thing. We really should just let it go as it's not very important nor is it actually about screenwriting anymore (if it ever was...). But my point was that I think everyone who showed skepticism was valid. And I'll believe that until the OP bothers to explain himself in the least. I don't think that was too much of us to ask of him.

Anyway, back to work, I am also a producer at a production company - anyone want to send me money? =)

[dclary]

many people replied 'fyi your company looks vaguely like a scam'.

You whitewash your memories selectively and effectively.

[Boo_Radley]

I side with Joe on this one. I also agreed with I believe it was Dpat, who replied that so far, the OP was behaving a lot more professional than anyone here was.

If I'd been that guy, had posted my little introduction, and then returned to find a dozen folks calling me a fraud, I'd have seen it as a daunting task to have to try to "explain" my non-solicitous introduction to a bunch of folks who'd already made up their mind about me.

Could have been this guy is just starting out, has put a lot of work into getting those projects he has listed as being in development on his site, and was looking for a little support or to drum up interest. But as Joe said, we'll probably never know now. And that's not right.

Now, someone had posted in that thread that the OP was getting a quick introduction into the cynical world of this industry, but that's bullshit. That's just an excuse to be a dick to someone. And I think that if I'd been given that kind of welcome, I wouldn't have bothered to come back, either.

I don't think this thread is an over-reaction in the slightest. The over-reaction came when it was assumed the OP was a fraud without knowing for sure.

I think Joe's response here is justified.

[Sunshine13]

Ditto that, Boo.

[Hobbledehoy]

You guys feel bad for that spammer? Shame on you. He was up on MovieBytes for goodness sake. That guy was obviously out for a free advertisement. I used to do it when I sold souls online. I would find me a nice Gothic message board and go to business on it until they deleted me and eventually banned my IP and ISP.

You should have deleted it when you first saw it.

[Joe Calabrese]

Hey Hobble.

Then I am guilty as well (as my signature clearly reveals).

Most of us here, especially those with sigs that link to our business(es) are always looking to expand our network of potential costomers, leads, etc... but that doesn't mean that our only motives are bad.

Whether this person wanted to scam us or not is not the point, because we never gave him the opportunity to either be a productive member of this forum or to be just another leach.

Joe

[Hobbledehoy]

Well,

I'm not going to act like I'm omniscient. Maybe that guy was really out to be nice. But there are two things that users of this forum hates and it's: narcissism and spam. And even if it just smells like one of them, you're screwed. Don't ask me how I know.

If he was innocent, he just should have told you guys where to go, that's what I would have done. I would have been like, Spam this *insert bad word*!. But Mr. Ortiz couldn't do that since we knew his real name.

[scripter1]

you once kinda did the same thing?
Like what you just said about yourself gives you some right to crack down on others?

And we are supposed to respect your opinion and pay attention to what you have to say?

Hey, I've got a suggestion.
Why don't all you guys go back over to the rant section and let us screenwriters have our peaceful board back.

[seanie blue]

Joe, what would happen if somebody from a vanity press posted elsewhere in AW, with a greeting similar to the OP's, and had a link in his or her post to a vanity publisher? Am I mistaken in remembering writers elsewhere on AW lambasting vanity presses and warning other writers not to go near them?

I think my biggest mistake in this was not to lie low and let the OP's true intentions come out more directly than they already did in his website. I would be amazed that any serious writer could look without suspicion at the solicitation for pets to star in the same movie that is part of a $20-per-scene contest, and which also is the flagship of the production company. In retrospect if I hadn't been so rash I think other posters with professional experience in the entertainment industry would have started making unwelcoming noise. There are hundreds of these mom-and-pop outfits within 50 miles of Hollywood, but few of them have as messed-up an approach to making movies as the OP does. It's bad enough that writers are regularly taken into contractual situations where a screenplay is tied up for a year or more in exchange for promises or a thousand bucks, when the producers know going into the agreement that their "talks" or "deals" with the names they drop are really hollow.

If it's important that writers wear rose-colored glasses to deal with the rejection and hopelessness their chosen craft often inspires, it's equally important that they be warned when those glasses become blinders.

Thinking that I wasn't far from censorship last night, I copied all my posts from the year I've spent on AW, and found they totalled over 70,000 words. I am the first to admit the vast majority of what I posted was pompous, arrogant, or pointless, but I dropped actual names the best I could and told the truth about my experiences in Hollywood the best I could, and usually I was spurred to do so by thinking other writers could benefit from the information. I learned things from other posters, and have modified my views about screenwriting, writing, and Hollywood because of some of the posts and arguments I've encountered here. AW has been an extremely valuable experience for me. The Hollywood I described and the names I provided came from my direct experiences with the screenwriting life, or the movie-making life, better.

But there is an amateur banter about screenplays and screenwriting that often swells up here, where hope seems to be more the motivation than reality, where no contracts exist and no movies are ever green-lighted but "sales" are around the corner, and the OP wandering in here with the pet contest was simply a larger crest than normal. I think my alarm was warranted. My tone probably was not warranted, and I apologise to anyone who took umbrage with it. (At it?)

Unfortunately, if it happens again, I'll react the same way. Baring one's teeth at a scam is the least a writer can do on a forum like this; it is practically a duty. Not everyone is welcome, and the surprise for me will be that it is me who is not welcome, perhaps since my version of writing for the movies directly assaults the dreamy sparkles in the eyes of some other posters, who saw "opportunity" when they should have seen "wake up."

You've been fair and respectful to me, Joe, until you warned me with censorship. I'll play nice if that's what I have to do, and I respect your position here and the responsibilities you've assumed. If you have to kick me out, do it.

But I'd like to ask you a personal question in a very public space: Did you read the rules of the pet star submissions in the OP's website, and since I assume that you did, what did YOU think?

[Hobbledehoy]

Respect this...Just kidding.

I'm not cracking down on anyone. I'm just saying. Who cares? And FYI, you never had a peaceful board.

[Sunshine13]

I wasn't siding with any particular person, just for an FYI. I was siding with the idea that some things said in that thread were a bit childish, and unprofessional, spammer or not, I just think people should be treated with respect. But that's just who I am. I love you all regardless.

[scripter1]

AWscreenwriting is a good bit kinder and gentler then DoneDeal.

I check out websites too when someone posts them, out of curiousity AND to see what ..... lurks behind the user name.

Still, I think it is only fair to take a first poster of this nature at face value.
It was a simple greeting.
MAYBE we could have done more good by giving the OP a chance to really step in it by showing thier true intentions. Letting them voice them and then having the thread as proof.

NOW we have nothing to link to if this person needs to become an honorary member of the bewares board.

OR maybe it was just a wierd hope of thiers, just trying to do something, anything, to make the dream happen. Not everyone has dishonest intentions. They just might not really know better.

[Boo_Radley]

I can only speak for myself, etc.

I see a guy come in here and start a thread that looks like it may be spam, I wait to see what comes of it. No reason to automatically jump the guy, especially since he wasn't obnoxious about it.

Has nothing to do with rose-colored glasses or how hopeful (which can be mistaken for desperate, sure) the majority here are of breaking into the industry. Anyone here who who's done their homework or has read a screenwriting how-to book -- or has spent any length of time on the internet -- knows you never take anyone in this biz at face-level; someone says he's this or that, you ask/call/browse around and check up on it. And I'd wager the majority of us do exactly that.

Regardless, to me it's a simple matter of civility; no reason to give someone shit until they've done something to deserve it.

[NicoleMD]

For some odd reason, I feel like watching Minority Report.

Nicole

[Joe Calabrese]

I'm not going to drag this on and on, so I am done with this after this post.

I think you guys acted prematurely. Fine, he was probably going to spam up at some point, but he didn't this time.

You went out of your way to hunt this guy down. You check out other sites, check the trades, google for a while to find anything. Fine if he was asking us for money in his post, we need to know these things, but he didn't.

It's one thing to check out his site, laugh and then say "welcome but your site needs work and that contest and pet thing really won't add creditability to your company here." BUT you didn't do that.

Why I am pissed? The language and the bullying. I felt like a circle of bullies were hovering around some little geek who was wetting his pants at the verbal assault.

Some of you were that unprofessional. You used childish, insulting and in some cases slanderous remarks.

And Seanie, I am not asking you to censor yourself, just be brief (very brief) and appropriate for the situation.

[NikeeGoddess]

everything that happens here happens at the dog park.

when the new dog appears in the park the welcoming committee runs to smell his ass. if they smell him before they get there and his bunghole has a strange odor --
the lead alpha dog pounces and the following pack dogs pounce too.

then there are those lazy dogs that hang out in the shade because they really don't care to smell his ass. "if he comes close i'll give it a sniff but otherwise..."

if he smells like a bitch in heat (a known and produced screenwriter for example) then you ho ho's can't get enough and hump, and hump, and hump till you drive him away and he'll never venture back to the park. that's why they don't come around here. it's not because they don't have the time.

[Hobbledehoy]

Uncalled For. Reported.

[Hobbledehoy]

Nikee, I would like to read your scripts. Your talent may be close to my level. This is why I would like to find out.

[dpaterso]

Closing reported thread. Glad we all had the opportunity to say our piece. Let's not start another thread on the same topic.

-Derek