An emotional, spiritual and personal dilemma. Please HELP.

[Melisande]

I'll try to put this dilemma to you short.

It's like this;

My Sister-In-Law, also my best friend and confidant, is a devoted Christian. Until now, as it has seemed to me, she has accepted my atheism, though with hesitation. Now things have changed. I am being corned into an impossible situation of "Chose Christ, or Get Lost.

As a hard atheist, or non-beleiver, I do not know what to to do, really. I have told her that I am willing to listen to whatever she has to say, but that I find it unlikely that she will be able to convert me. She responded by saying that she can not continue this friendship unless she can "missionary" (or whatever you wish to call it).

I love her. She means a lot to me. I wouldn't like to disappoint her, but to be honest I couldn't even begin to pretend that I believed in "The Christ" as she calls it.

Now, I have gotten the impression that eithet I convert, or I lose her friendship. To me that is being more or less confronted with an ultimatum. I'm not good as those things. Feel like I have been pushed into a corner.

No matter what I will still love her. But I am scared that she will put her belief-system between us if I don't even pretend to take hers under consideraton. I am also scared that she will influence her husband, MY Hubby's brother, to distance himself from us.

What would YOU do???

[P.H.Delarran]

I'm so sorry.
I would stick by MY beliefs and let her do the DO-ing. It's her ultimatum-not yours. (and very unfair!)

[Angelinity]

sorry to hear about your quandrum.

from this distance -- and i don't mean to slight your best friend -- it sounds like a power play. if her friendship cannot withstand the burden of allowing you your freedom to believe what you believe, in my opinion it does not meet the first standard of true friendship.

what i would do? i would fight back -- Christ is said to have forgiven anything and anyone. her rejecting your friendship based on your set of beliefs is therefore un-Christ-like, hence by doing that she is actually betraying his teachings...

you should never allow another to bully you into changing your belief system -- it would dampen your own spirit in the long term.

i know that going it alone is the hardest thing. but you must keep your core intact.

it is not impossible that some day you might find your own way to a given religion and embrace it -- many go through such major changes. but this must always take place on your own terms, of your own conviction, otherwise you'd be giving your power away.

[oscuridad]

sounds like the influence of a new pastor (or whatever). I find Christians tend to be a bit faddy when someone new turns up (especially if they are more hard line), and tend to feel guilty that they are not as hard line as the new guy (or gal). Stick to your guns. I would think it will pass. If your friendship is that strong she will come back to contacting you soon enough.
It is about power, guilt and validation (if she wins SHE must be right)

[Inky]

Hmmm...sounds like the only thing missing are bombs strapped to her middle with her thumb over an ingnitor. You are considered the infidel, and if you don't convert ASAP, she will blow up your friendship. Gotta love Christianity. All or nothing. And don't get me started on the hypocrasy of their opinions regarding Muslims. Study history. Christianity taught the hate; taught the slaughter as it absorbed weaker religions through fear and brutality and death. Entire cultures have been lost.

This is why I tossed out my belief of Christianity. It's nothing more than a superpower disguised as a religion that has decimated thousands for over 3000 years. A tool used to conquer, rarely, if ever, has it been truly associated with peace.

If your sister in law/friend felt the same way about the friendship that you do, she would embrace whom you are, not your beliefs. Sounds like the friendship is one-sided; furthermore, abusive.
One does not need to be physically assaulted to be abused. Place the gift of your friendship in the hands of someone who will appreciate all that you bring with it. A true friend won't care you nationality, color, sexual preference, nor religion. They will be intrigued by the person you are, not what they want you to be. What a boring world if we all became one nation, one culture...can you say Stepford?

If you start changing for everyone, at the end of the day--I promise you--you will have lost your identity. This will result in a profound journey to darkness within.
Never sacrifice your soul. Never sacrifice what makes you- YOU.

Personally, I believe there's something all powerful out there. I believe he/she has had the incredible ability to be visible to all peoples in whatever way they would accept: The Great Spirit, God, Allah, Zeus, etc.

I also believe that man has taken what could have been an amazing ability to achieve peace and decimated the purity of religion with his need for absolute domination--no matter the century/millennia.

Stand your ground. Believe in yourself. Hold your gift of friendship in higher esteem; it's not a bargaining tool, it's something to be cherished. Sounds like you need to snatch it back, mend what's been bruised, and give it to someone else that's more appreciative.

And, if you REALLY want to be cold--it shortens your Christmas list.

Karey

[Perks]

There's nothing you can do. My answer is to tell her, "How can I just believe, when I simply don't? I'm not not believing to be a bad person."

Likely, this drawing lines in the sand is a phase. (Not her faith, just her ultimatum sale.) If it's not, then you two weren't going to have very much in common after a while anyway.

You should probably stop calling her and give it some time.

[benbradley]

I'll try to put this dilemma to you short.

It's like this;

My Sister-In-Law, also my best friend and confidant, is a devoted Christian. Until now, as it has seemed to me, she has accepted my atheism, though with hesitation. Now things have changed. I am being corned into an impossible situation of "Chose Christ, or Get Lost.

As a hard atheist, or non-beleiver, I do not know what to to do, really. I have told her that I am willing to listen to whatever she has to say, but that I find it unlikely that she will be able to convert me.
I don't know, I can see where you stated it as just being factual, but that sounds like some sort of challenge.

Being willing to listen to "whatever someone has to say" means you probably expect them to say things based on previous experiences in the friendship, but it appears things have changed. Her belief now appears to be more important than the friendship. I can see where she could develop that priority, and it can only be bad for the friendship. I remember when a friend tried to push Herbalife on me, it really felt icky.

She responded by saying that she can not continue this friendship unless she can "missionary" (or whatever you wish to call it).
My first thought is to say "I'm sorry to hear that" in a bit of a sarcastic way, but it certainly appears to be true.

I love her. She means a lot to me. I wouldn't like to disappoint her, but to be honest I couldn't even begin to pretend that I believed in "The Christ" as she calls it.

Now, I have gotten the impression that eithet I convert, or I lose her friendship. To me that is being more or less confronted with an ultimatum. I'm not good as those things. Feel like I have been pushed into a corner.

No matter what I will still love her. But I am scared that she will put her belief-system between us if I don't even pretend to take hers under consideraton. I am also scared that she will influence her husband, MY Hubby's brother, to distance himself from us.

What would YOU do???
Quite frankly, and as much as it may hurt, let her go and look for more friends, especially ones who are compatible with your beliefs or who at least "agree to disagree." Be sure to discuss the situation and your fears with your husband, so at least he won't be surprised if he sees his brother acting differently toward the two of you.

[Jacob]

Wow, thats really cruel. Really, I guess the only thing you can do is tell her that for the well being of your conscience , you cannot pretend to believe something you dont.I mean I cant really think of anything else you could do. She will either accept it or she wont.

[sunna]

My sympathies. I've had family members pull some version of this one on me before, and it's never fun.

Painful as it may be, the best bet is probably to just state your position and then let her work it out for herself: hopefully she'll eventually realize that friendship can survive a difference in beliefs (and can in fact benefit by it); if she doesn't, then no amount of argument or compromise on your part will get her there.

Just remember that this is her crisis, not yours. You won't be doing either one of you any favors if you let her make it yours.

:Hug2: Good luck.

[Roger J Carlson]

I hope you don't mind a Christian perspective here.

I think oscuridad is right in that some new influence in her life precipitated this, although it may not be a new pastor. It could be a new bible study group or simply a new friend who has recommended a tough-love approach. Unfortunately, this approach is antithetical to everything the gospels stand for.

You might want to approach it her on her level. The bible speaks clearly that this is the wrong approach.

First of all, you can't pretend a faith you don't have. That is the rankest form of hypocrisy and Jesus had very nasty things to say about hypocrisy. Mark 7:6 "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.'" Ask her if she would have you be a hypocrite.

Secondly, remind her of the Parable of the Sower (Mark 4:1-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%204:1-20;&version=31;), Matthew 13:1-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:1-23;&version=31;), and Luke 8:1-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:1-15;&version=31;)). The seed (of the Gospel) will fall on all sorts of ground. It will take root in some and it won't in others. It's not the sower's responsibility to make the seed grow, only to cast the seeds. Your soil just isn't ready for it yet (and perhaps may never be ready), but that's not her responsibility. But it IS her responsibility to continue to sow seeds, which she can't if she cuts you off. Romans 10:14 says: "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?"

I don't know if you'd be comfortable with this approach or not, but it gives her a biblical basis to reconsider her actions.

[julie thorpe]

If she is a true Christian she should have some respect for the 'golden rule' (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) that is, pay you the respect of accepting you as you are..

Whatever you do, don't compromise your own ideals and ideas to suit hers. Her beliefs are her business, and no-one else's; your beliefs are your business, no-one else's (though she will have a hard time accepting that since fundamentalist Christians are taught they must proselytise all the time).

Stick to your point. It's your skin you're living in. Clothe it the way it suits you best. I hope you don't lose her love and friendship, but if you do, that's the price you may have to pay for preserving your integrity.

[Cathy C]

I agree with Roger on this. I live in the center of the buckle of the bible belt and I've found that there are two types of church-goers here--those who feel the need to convert a person to their canon of choice and those who are of the "live and let live" sort. It sounds like your sister-in-law has moved from the latter school to the former. Whether it was by her own choice or through peer pressure (and yes, a pastor's influence can be deemed peer pressure, IMO) doesn't really matter. What matters is you're trying to save your relationship while not compromising either your own beliefs or hers. That's a tricky matter. I think Roger's got the best suggestion, to take a stand on her own field of play. There's a lot to be said for free will, and those who try to force the issue, under the guise of "Missionary" or "Ministry" aren't being true to their own faith. You don't need to yell or scream. Just keep repeating one or two key bible passages and hold your ground. Eventually by sheer repetition, it'll sink in. No doubt your words will be taken to whatever "higher" authority your SIL is speaking to, and you'll be met with counter action. If the new data sways you, fine. That's that free will thing again. If not, then not and you'll have to let her go her own way. I think if your brother-in-law hears both sides of the story, and if he's the reasonable sort, he'll stay out of it and not allow the rift to grow too large.

Good luck, and so sorry you're having to go through this. :Hug2:

[nancy02664]

Could you get someone else involved as a mediator?

My situation is somewhat analogous to yours, and if my devout SILs ever tried to coerce me into conversion, I think my first course of action would be to appeal to another family member to try to diffuse the situation.

I mean, if you've been close friends for a long time, you've got to have plenty of things in common -- even if religion isn't one of those things. Why is this issue suddenly so important to her? (Does she see you as a threat all of a sudden? Or, as others have mentioned, maybe it's a new influence in her life, etc.?)

I'm not sure if it's totally smart to drag others into it -- it might be a bad idea, in fact, depending on the specifics. But (for me) there are a few family members who would make great mediators (they are neither religious nor non-religious, if that makes sense). If you have someone like this in your family, maybe getting that person involved in the discussion as a neutral party could be helpful for getting the friendship back on track.

[Melisande]

Could you get someone else involved as a mediator?

My situation is somewhat analogous to yours, and if my devout SILs ever tried to coerce me into conversion, I think my first course of action would be to appeal to another family member to try to diffuse the situation.

I mean, if you've been close friends for a long time, you've got to have plenty of things in common -- even if religion isn't one of those things. Why is this issue suddenly so important to her? (Does she see you as a threat all of a sudden? Or, as others have mentioned, maybe it's a new influence in her life, etc.?)

I'm not sure if it's totally smart to drag others into it -- it might be a bad idea, in fact, depending on the specifics. But (for me) there are a few family members who would make great mediators (they are neither religious nor non-religious, if that makes sense). If you have someone like this in your family, maybe getting that person involved in the discussion as a neutral party could be helpful for getting the friendship back on track.

As a matter of fact she has asked that both our husbands (the brothers) should be present when she does "her thing". I am not opposed it. My Hubby is a CINO (I sincerely hope that SOKAL will accept that I use his abbrevation.) We have talked about this and he doesn't like this situation either. I have his support. He doesn't mind my being a non-believer. Actually he kind of likes it. Makes him feel special, he says, to be married to someone that he feels is "different".

[Melisande]

I don't know, I can see where you stated it as just being factual, but that sounds like some sort of challenge.

Being willing to listen to "whatever someone has to say" means you probably expect them to say things based on previous experiences in the friendship, but it appears things have changed. Her belief now appears to be more important than the friendship. I can see where she could develop that priority, and it can only be bad for the friendship. I remember when a friend tried to push Herbalife on me, it really felt icky.


My first thought is to say "I'm sorry to hear that" in a bit of a sarcastic way, but it certainly appears to be true.


My SIL has been on a long "spiritual journey" as she prefers to call it. She has been exploring many different ways of thinking and believing, but she has also always kept her center in "The Christ" (her way of putting it). We have enjoyed many long and penetrating discussions of various philosophies and ways of believing.

When I was given this "ultimatum" a couple of days ago, it came like a shock to me. She told me that she considers me her best friend, but that she has a really hard time with my atheism. She claimed that it makes both her, and her husband (my Brother-In-Law) uncomfortable.

I honestly think that our previous discussions ought to have shown her that I, even though I lack a belief-system, accept and respect people of any religion. Why shouldn't I? It is not for me to have any kind of say about what other people choose to believe, or to claim what is right or wrong. Obviously a standpoint not shared by my SIL.

[nancy02664]

As a matter of fact she has asked that both our husbands (the brothers) should be present when she does "her thing".

Wow, a stand-off. Hm.

If I had to do that with one of my SILs, I think I would try to talk about religion as little as possible. After all, the discussion -- at its core -- is about the friendship and trying to save it. It's about getting to the bottom of her change of heart. What sort of need is she trying to fill? Is she feeling guilt? Is this an ego-boost for her? (In fact, this situation probably has a lot more to do with psychology than with religion.)

I would also be prepared to combat belief-related questions. ("Why don’t you believe?" "Do you know you're going to hell?") If she tries this tactic, I would do the same to her. After all, it's her ultimatum--she should be the one answering questions: "Why do you feel the need to destroy a great friendship?" "Do you know how upset I am to learn that you've decided to throw away our relationship?" "Do you know how much I'll miss you?" "Do you understand that this situation could potentially cause a permanent rift in the family?"

If nothing works, I would be ready to cut ties in a very pleasant, open-ended way: "I love you, but I’m really saddened by your decision. I'll always be here for you if you want to be friends again." And I think you should stress that this is her decision, not yours, when talking to other family members as well: "She has decided to stop being friends with me, and I'm sad about that. But I love her and I wish her the best, no matter what."

[oscuridad]

As a matter of fact she has asked that both our husbands (the brothers) should be present when she does "her thing".

don't like the sound of that much... what is her thing, btw? A last ditch attempt at conversion, a rationale? Curious, sorry. It is horrible you are being put in this position. Thankfully, this kind of exremism is rare in the UK. And please don't think there is any implication of greater enlightenment there - I think it is more to do with the amount of effort required - getting up early on Sundays etc. Good luck with it, for what its worth.

[callalily61]

I, even though I lack a belief-system, accept and respect people of any religion. Why shouldn't I? It is not for me to have any kind of say about what other people choose to believe, or to claim what is right or wrong.

:Hug2:

All my friends who happen to be atheist, or Pagan, or Wicca, or Jewish, or Buddhist, applaud you--and so do I. (I'm part of an eclectic bunch.)

[Melisande]

I would also be prepared to combat belief-related questions. ("Why don’t you believe?" "Do you know you're going to hell?") If she tries this tactic, I would do the same to her. After all, it's her ultimatum--she should be the one answering questions: "Why do you feel the need to destroy a great friendship?" "Do you know how upset I am to learn that you've decided to throw away our relationship?" "Do you know how much I'll miss you?" "Do you understand that this situation could potentially cause a permanent rift in the family?"



When my SIL said that she needed to try and convert me "or else..." I really tried to tell her that it shouldn't matter to her, or anybody else for that matter, that I am a non-believer. After all, it doesn't matter one bit to me that she is almost fanatically religious. That's just the way she is. I also said that this makes me feel extremely uncomfortable. Still she insisted.

After having read the posts here, and I thank you all for trying to help me and for pointing out what I couldn't see, I have decided that I will not passively sit around and wait for her initiative. I think I will simply call her and tell her what I think, and live with the consequenses. My Hubby and his brother must deal with it their own way.

[Pat~]

Melisande, for what it's worth, I agree with Roger's and Cathy's advice. I have recently gone through this with a formerly close friend who "disfellowshipped" me when we left the church we'd been attending (her husband is an elder). No matter how they disguise it in piety, it is not the love I read about in the Bible--nor is that type of ultimatum theologically sound. Your best approach is to gently but firmly stand your ground, and not let her manipulate you. You could have her look up John 6:44 ("No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him..."), to remind her that conviction as well as conversion is ALL God's work, not hers--but if that doesn't work, for the sake of family unity, try to maintain a stance of love and acceptance regardless of her behavior. Either she'll come around or not, but it's not really in your control, nor is it your responsibility to do everything at all costs to try to preserve a friendship built on such a shaky foundation.

[Higgins]

As a matter of fact she has asked that both our husbands (the brothers) should be present when she does "her thing". I am not opposed it. My Hubby is a CINO (I sincerely hope that SOKAL will accept that I use his abbrevation.) We have talked about this and he doesn't like this situation either. I have his support. He doesn't mind my being a non-believer. Actually he kind of likes it. Makes him feel special, he says, to be married to someone that he feels is "different".

This is a hard question for a CINO. By the way I didn't invent the abbreviation, it came up in a Christian Sex Thread (CST)...anyway...the tough thing about being a CINO is there is no CINO consensus. Each CINO must answer to himself and if God chimes in...we have to doubt our lack of committment to not having much of a committment....so....I'll have to think about this.

[Higgins]

I'll try to put this dilemma to you short.

It's like this;

My Sister-In-Law, also my best friend and confidant, is a devoted Christian. Until now, as it has seemed to me, she has accepted my atheism, though with hesitation. Now things have changed. I am being corned into an impossible situation of "Chose Christ, or Get Lost.

As a hard atheist, or non-beleiver, I do not know what to to do, really. I have told her that I am willing to listen to whatever she has to say, but that I find it unlikely that she will be able to convert me. She responded by saying that she can not continue this friendship unless she can "missionary" (or whatever you wish to call it).

I love her. She means a lot to me. I wouldn't like to disappoint her, but to be honest I couldn't even begin to pretend that I believed in "The Christ" as she calls it.

Now, I have gotten the impression that eithet I convert, or I lose her friendship. To me that is being more or less confronted with an ultimatum. I'm not good as those things. Feel like I have been pushed into a corner.

No matter what I will still love her. But I am scared that she will put her belief-system between us if I don't even pretend to take hers under consideraton. I am also scared that she will influence her husband, MY Hubby's brother, to distance himself from us.

What would YOU do???

Actually I did have this situation come up one time. I was working with a brilliant mathematician and he wanted me to join his church...which was -- honest to God -- far too nice a place for me to be happy.

So we played basketball for my soul. If I won...I would be free to pursue God by going to dangerous places and not getting killed...otherwise, if he won....I would have to go to Church.

It was a helluva game: blood suffering and so forth (my own religious elements) and he lost. So I was free to live without the odor of sanctity and with the comforting if nasty possibility of being assassinated by my God on some adventure in His service.

Anyway, a challenge to a potentially lethal ordeal seems like a good way for a CINO to resolve issues of Faith. It may not work for you.

[Melisande]

This is a hard question for a CINO. By the way I didn't invent the abbreviation, it came up in a Christian Sex Thread (CST)...anyway...the tough thing about being a CINO is there is no CINO consensus. Each CINO must answer to himself and if God chimes in...we have to doubt our lack of committment to not having much of a committment....so....I'll have to think about this.

My Hubby was raised a Catholic. He does not go to church anymore. (I had nothing to do with that. He stopped going to church years before we even met.) But I know that, in his own quiet and charming way, he is a Christian, without the need to commit himself to a church.

[PattiTheWicked]

I swear, a friend just came to me last night with the same exact problem. I'll tell you what I told her:

a. People who deliver ultimatums will ALWAYS find some other ultimatum to deliver. Even if you DID concede and tell her what she wants to hear, sooner or later there will be something else for her to complain about.

b. You are not responsible for the happiness of other people. If she is unhappy that you're an atheist, that is HER choice. It's not up to you to change just to meet her needs.

c. If this person was NOT a relative, you'd have no problem with distancing yourself from her. If she's going to make this relationship toxic, then I wouldn't feel bad at all about letting her go her own way. Her choice.

Finally, your husband and his brother are adults. They'll manage to work things out between themselves. In the meantime, I'd echo what the other folks said, which is that you make clear that any rift in the family is because your SIL chose to make it this way. All you can do is offer to be there for her later on, if she changes her mind.

Good luck.

[Higgins]

My Hubby was raised a Catholic. He does not go to church anymore. (I had nothing to do with that. He stopped going to church years before we even met.) But I know that, in his own quiet and charming way, he is a Christian, without the need to commit himself to a church.

I swear, a friend just came to me last night with the same exact problem. I'll tell you what I told her:

a. People who deliver ultimatums will ALWAYS find some other ultimatum to deliver. Even if you DID concede and tell her what she wants to hear, sooner or later there will be something else for her to complain about.

b. You are not responsible for the happiness of other people. If she is unhappy that you're an atheist, that is HER choice. It's not up to you to change just to meet her needs.

c. If this person was NOT a relative, you'd have no problem with distancing yourself from her. If she's going to make this relationship toxic, then I wouldn't feel bad at all about letting her go her own way. Her choice.

Finally, your husband and his brother are adults. They'll manage to work things out between themselves. In the meantime, I'd echo what the other folks said, which is that you make clear that any rift in the family is because your SIL chose to make it this way. All you can do is offer to be there for her later on, if she changes her mind.

Good luck.

With a CINO husband and this advice from Patti...things ought to go well...but it just occurred to me that your SIL might have pulled this stunt not so much against you as to force her husband to pay more attention to her. Anyway she isn't your SIL, she's only your Husband's SIL...right?

[JoNightshade]

I'm going to chime in and also agree with Roger's approach. Jesus never gave anyone an ultimatum. He simply said, "Follow me," and if someone didn't follow, he left them where they were. He's not interested in forcing people into "religion," because the whole point of free will is us being able to choose whether we want to follow him or not. Your SIL is not only doing something that is against the principles of Christianity, she is actively pushing you away from the choice she wants you to make. If she wants you to become a Christian, she needs to show how her life is "better" in the way she lives and acts.

I would advise against "confronting" her or getting angry with her. Obviously she feels very strongly about what she believes, and in a way this is a measure of how much she cares for you. If she believes that you are going to hell if you don't convert, then if she cares for you of course she's going to do all that's within her power to try to make you convert. But she needs to let go and realize that God is the one who changes hearts and minds, not man. So she's a little off in her theology, but her heart's in the right place. Rather than just shoving this back in her face, if you really value this relationship, I would get together with her and just have a chat. Show her that you know where she's coming from and you understand, but that you also think she's going about it in the wrong way. Point out some things from the bible. That will likely encourage her and calm her down at the same time.

[Melisande]

Anyway she isn't your SIL, she's only your Husband's SIL...right?

She isn't? I thought she was. DANG, the english language is complicated. Please explain.

[Higgins]

She isn't? I thought she was. DANG, the english language is complicated. Please explain.


Well, if she is your SIL, what about her sister? What about her sister's husband's sister? Where would -in-law ever stop?

As it was explained to me, "sibling-in-law" status only extends to the actual siblings of one's spouse and not to their spouses (so your brother-in-law's wife is just your brother-in-law's wife...your husband's sister would be your sister-in-law).

[oscuridad]

Well, if she is your SIL, what about her sister? What about her sister's husband's sister? Where would -in-law ever stop?

As it was explained to me, "sibling-in-law" status only extends to the actual siblings of one's spouse and not to their spouses (so your brother-in-law's wife is just your brother-in-law's wife...your husband's sister would be your sister-in-law).

I often wondered about that... there is some great advice here - from all sides - good luck.

[Melisande]

Well, if she is your SIL, what about her sister? What about her sister's husband's sister? Where would -in-law ever stop?

As it was explained to me, "sibling-in-law" status only extends to the actual siblings of one's spouse and not to their spouses (so your brother-in-law's wife is just your brother-in-law's wife...your husband's sister would be your sister-in-law).

Thank you for taking your time in explaining this. I understand now.

[Pat~]

As it was explained to me, "sibling-in-law" status only extends to the actual siblings of one's spouse and not to their spouses (so your brother-in-law's wife is just your brother-in-law's wife...your husband's sister would be your sister-in-law).

And your siblings' spouses are also your in-laws...

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I'll try to put this dilemma to you short.

It's like this;

My Sister-In-Law, also my best friend and confidant, is a devoted Christian. Until now, as it has seemed to me, she has accepted my atheism, though with hesitation. Now things have changed. I am being corned into an impossible situation of "Chose Christ, or Get Lost.

As a hard atheist, or non-beleiver, I do not know what to to do, really. I have told her that I am willing to listen to whatever she has to say, but that I find it unlikely that she will be able to convert me. She responded by saying that she can not continue this friendship unless she can "missionary" (or whatever you wish to call it).

I love her. She means a lot to me. I wouldn't like to disappoint her, but to be honest I couldn't even begin to pretend that I believed in "The Christ" as she calls it.

Now, I have gotten the impression that eithet I convert, or I lose her friendship. To me that is being more or less confronted with an ultimatum. I'm not good as those things. Feel like I have been pushed into a corner.

No matter what I will still love her. But I am scared that she will put her belief-system between us if I don't even pretend to take hers under consideraton. I am also scared that she will influence her husband, MY Hubby's brother, to distance himself from us.

What would YOU do???

What would I do?

I would stick to my beliefs, regardless of what my SIL wanted. She might think you're losing your eternal soul, but if you live your life to please her, you will be miserable and she will have a false sense of victory over you.

I say false because you wouldn't really believe what you claimed to believe, if I understand your post correctly.

It's really a hard situation to go through. I've gone through it myself a few times, and have caved in on several occasions. I wish now that I had not given in, because now I feel like I have betrayed myself, my beliefs, my God, and my purpose in life.

Like others have said, your SIL is the one giving the ultimatum. Because of this, I think you should stick to your convictions and let her be the one to do whatever she's said she'll do.

Always remember this, though: you do not make other people take certain actions. They choose for themselves the actions they take. If your SIL blames you, know that she's lying both to you and to herself. Only she can decide what she does.

But you need to remain firm. Your beliefs, your convictions, should only be changed if you are fully convinced they need to be. If not, you should never change them. You need to be true to yourself and what beliefs or non-beliefs, as the case may be, you hold closest to your heart.

I'm sorry this has happened to you, and I hope you find a good resolution to this problem, soon.


:Hug2:

[Cassiopeia]

When others come to us with ultimatums it is a power struggle. Someone or something has clearly stirred her up to feel she must exert undo pressure on you to convert.

I would take the approach that however unfair and controlling her actions are, she is showing you in her way that she genuinely cares for you and wants what she thinks is best for you. In her mind it is a question of your immortal soul and salvation.

Love her for it, bless her in your heart. Thank her for caring so much for you. Then respectfully remind her that if what she believes is true then God will find a way to convince you.

You can not however, give into her demands or she will hold you hostage with the threat of leaving your friendship and the possibility of taking your BIL with her in the future over various things. I promise you, as scary as it is to consider losing them, it is better to be honest and truthful than to let her believe you have converted when you haven't.

Tell her lovingly if she must stop being friends with you that you understand and let her go on her way. Never let anyone have the power to manipulate you into doing things you do not want to.

[Melisande]

So, we just had "The Talk", my brother-in-law's wife and I.

Turns out, she was more concerned about my not knowing what her belief means to her, and that she had doubts that I even knew what "True Christianity" (her words) was. (No need to debate that, it's a personal thing for everyone I guess.)

I was happy to inform her that she always makes it perfectly clear how much her religion means to her, and that I certainly have no problems with that. It is part of her, and also one of the reason's I love her. I was also able to convey that I actaually have a fairly good notion about the teachings of Jesus Christ, and that my choice to be a non-believer has not been made blindly.

We agreed to disagree and I do not feel cornered anymore.

Just wanted to fill you in, and thank you all once more for your kind advise and support.

[Simple Living]

Melisande,

I'm really sorry you're being put in this position. Christians mean well when they do this, but they don't realize that it isn't the right way to go about it.

I'm a born again Christian and the example Christians are to follow is Jesus's example, not our own. The best thing your friend could do is live her life by example and not condemn you for yours. God gives everyone the opportunity to decide for themselves whether or not to follow Him. He never forces anyone and Christians aren't supposed to either.

She doesn't have to accept your beliefs to be your friend. I wish many Christians understood that. Christianity isn't supposed to be the "us four and no more" club. Jesus hung around those who didn't know or believe in Him... and He loved on them. He didn't condone their actions but He didn't condemn them either. He hated the sin but always loved the person. His example made them want to follow Him. It's supposed to be the same way today.

The only time I would consider breaking off ties with someone is if their actions and beliefs were so strong, invasive or offensive that the person basically turned into a mocker and became disrespectful. Otherwise I look at it this way: God loves every person equally. He's not a respector of persons in that He has no favorites. I like that. All people are of equal value to Him. He doesn't love Billy Graham or Mother Thersa more than He loves you or me.

What should you do about it? Well, you presented your question very lovingly and neutrally. Print out your question and the responses you feel comfortable with and show her. Explain that you needed advice because you don't want to lose her as a friend but that ultimatums aren't necessary or acceptable. Let her know that, if anything, it pushes you further away from wanting anything to do with God and that her words and actions are a direct reflection on how others see God.

God exists and He loves you. But I would hardly think you'd come to know that through harrassment or nagging!

[Simple Living]

I just read your resolution to the situation. I'm really glad it worked out for you. There's enough stress in the world without friends adding it to each other's lives.

[Cassiopeia]

So, we just had "The Talk", my brother-in-law's wife and I.

Turns out, she was more concerned about my not knowing what her belief means to her, and that she had doubts that I even knew what "True Christianity" (her words) was. (No need to debate that, it's a personal thing for everyone I guess.)

I was happy to inform her that she always makes it perfectly clear how much her religion means to her, and that I certainly have no problems with that. It is part of her, and also one of the reason's I love her. I was also able to convey that I actaually have a fairly good notion about the teachings of Jesus Christ, and that my choice to be a non-believer has not been made blindly.

We agreed to disagree and I do not feel cornered anymore.

Just wanted to fill you in, and thank you all once more for your kind advise and support.Thanks for letting everyone know. I am glad it worked out. :)

[callalily61]

So glad it worked out so peaceably.

[Devil Ledbetter]

I'm glad you've come to an understanding with her, Melisande. Despite her claims about how "important" her religion is to her, it sounds to me like her beliefs are rather shaky. Those who are weakest in their beliefs cannot tolerate others believing differently. It's too much of a threat, seeing an openly atheist person leading a happy, normal life when they themselves think they'd be "nothing" without their god.

People like her are comfortable only when everyone around them bobs their heads in agreement about how "great" their god is.

[oscuridad]

I'm glad you've come to an understanding with her, Melisande. Despite her claims about how "important" her religion is to her, it sounds to me like her beliefs are rather shaky. Those who are weakest in their beliefs cannot tolerate others believing differently. It's too much of a threat, seeing an openly atheist person leading a happy, normal life when they themselves think they'd be "nothing" without their god.

People like her are comfortable only when everyone around them bobs their heads in agreement about how "great" their god is.

this is sooo true...

[katejohnson77]

The existence of free will is proof that her methodology in attaining her ends is ineffective. Perhaps there is a creator who designed me, and with me he designed this terrible risk of letting me go, seperating my self from him self: disigning within me the opportunity to choose freely between options.

If this be true, then even the creative gods have ordained that it is the right of the individual to believe or to doubt or to disbelieve. That person is left with the right and privilege of choosing between these three options. If there be a god, it is between that god and the individual man whether the man believe, doubt, or disbelieve. It is not really anyone else's place to mandate one of these three options concerning god or religion or what you call it.

I, myself, happen to be a belieiver who converted from atheism. I can remember that everyone seemed on the edge of their seats to 'convert me.' As if it was their role or something. I did not convert via threats or pressure from those around me who did already believe. I studied in depth two 'what if's' "What if it is true?" and "What if it is untrue?" I then compared and contrasted these two positions and carefully weighed the consequences of choosing either or. I studied all of the main religions out there. I read and re read the gospel stories. I studied the teachings of such men as the Buddha and Ghandi and Confucious and on and on.

Ultimately, I made my own choice as to what I wanted to do. I went from unbelief to doubt and then finally to belief. No one forced me to this choice. I thoroughally researched the facts and the reasonings for and against and came to my own conclusions.

Perhaps your friend just doesn't understand the reverence in freedom of will to choose between things in this world? I don't think she is trying to be cruel, as the Christian religion drills adherants to evangelize at all times.

But how she is evangelizing seems ineffective to me. Let it go and let her be the one to sit beneath the ultimatum. If any one is to go away from the friendship, let it be her and not you.

Also, I am really sorry about all this. I feel that it must be very hurtful for you.

Sincerely,
Kate.

[deathwizard]

God exists and He loves you. But I would hardly think you'd come to know that through harrassment or nagging!

In the Christian forum, these are highly appropriate statements. But in the atheist forum, they come off as a bit condescending.

[Higgins]

In the Christian forum, these are highly appropriate statements. But in the atheist forum, they come off as a bit condescending.

Condescension is the grease that allows societies full of subcultures to survive.

[davids]

In the Christian forum, these are highly appropriate statements. But in the atheist forum, they come off as a bit condescending.


God does not exist so there is no love from or about the idea in any way shape or form. Ooh that felt good and Sokol is not god either but his statement is Johnny on the spot!

I know the question is resolved but find it interesting none the less. And typical of the beasts of belief.

I was going to suggest that a copy of Christopher Hitchen's book-God is Not Great be bought-gift wrapped and that it be presented as your bible but then again I thought that would be rather unloving and unatheistic so I decided to not suggest it although I wanted to.

What speaks to me of love and kindness? Is it that voice? The still small voice that screams at me? The voice of god? No it is the voice of Burbble the Heathen soon to be released-have book will travel.

I find it interesting that the kind friends from the Christian forum come on in and I must admit give very sound advice. Why do I feel that when asking a question on such other forums that I am totally ignored?

Could it be they seem me silly? Could it be they feel I am taking the Michael out of their idol? I did you know some time ago. Post I mean, not take any Michaels. I thought it a valid and respectful question which by now of course being older'n dirt I have forgotten. Totally ignored and so I became an Atheist and only after hard study did I do this. Religion is so strong it made me a freaking Atheist.

I know I know the debull got me in my hayd and I am going to spend eternity in Des Moines which actually could be alright if I can find a non-christian book store.

This has been my first post here and my last so it is and so it will be now and forever amen-luv Dave I could be kidding though but only the big man in Des Moines knows for sure.

[jennifer75]

I think it's unfortunate that she is making you choose. (Gosh when I see that word written it looks so funny)

Either way, it's a shame. I have a very good long time friend that is "born again" and I am completely not a religious person at all, and we make it work.

There is a sort of unspoken rule, don't try and convert Jennifer75, she's not interested at this time. And if she ever starts to try, I remind her, that her lifestyle and beliefs are not for me right now. Later they may be, but not right now.

It is very difficult for me to look at her as the old friend I once had prior to her converting, she is very different and is a totally different person. I guess this is a different topic completely but I thought I'd throw it in.

Either way, we can coexist, we can go to lunch, we can hang out, and she accepts me, as I accept her now. I think the ultimatum is wrong and as long as you to don't clash with every conversation or action or continue to try to convert, you should be able to remain as friends, each with your own beliefs.

[deathwizard]

Condescension is the grease that allows societies full of subcultures to survive.

HA!!!

[deathwizard]

God does not exist so there is no love from or about the idea in any way shape or form. Ooh that felt good and Sokol is not god either but his statement is Johnny on the spot!

I know the question is resolved but find it interesting none the less. And typical of the beasts of belief.

I was going to suggest that a copy of Christopher Hitchen's book-God is Not Great be bought-gift wrapped and that it be presented as your bible but then again I thought that would be rather unloving and unatheistic so I decided to not suggest it although I wanted to.

What speaks to me of love and kindness? Is it that voice? The still small voice that screams at me? The voice of god? No it is the voice of Burbble the Heathen soon to be released-have book will travel.

I find it interesting that the kind friends from the Christian forum come on in and I must admit give very sound advice. Why do I feel that when asking a question on such other forums that I am totally ignored?

Could it be they seem me silly? Could it be they feel I am taking the Michael out of their idol? I did you know some time ago. Post I mean, not take any Michaels. I thought it a valid and respectful question which by now of course being older'n dirt I have forgotten. Totally ignored and so I became an Atheist and only after hard study did I do this. Religion is so strong it made me a freaking Atheist.

I know I know the debull got me in my hayd and I am going to spend eternity in Des Moines which actuallt could be alright if I can find a non-christian book store.

This has been my first post here and my last so it is and so it will be now and forever amen-luv Dave I could be kidding though but only the big man in Des Moines knows for sure.

And double HA!!! (I think.)

[jennifer75]

sounds like the influence of a new pastor (or whatever). I find Christians tend to be a bit faddy when someone new turns up (especially if they are more hard line), and tend to feel guilty that they are not as hard line as the new guy (or gal). Stick to your guns. I would think it will pass. If your friendship is that strong she will come back to contacting you soon enough.
It is about power, guilt and validation (if she wins SHE must be right)

I agree. When my friend first converted, she was very up front and in your face about why we should ALL convert with her. And she lost a few dear friends because of her bluntness. Telling your friends that they are going to go to Hell because they are of another religion than yours, is wrong. And I don't "He" would want this sort of message out there.

She toned it down a bit, it's been about three years sinse she totally conveted, and she's much easier to be around.

I've gotten used to not swearing in front of her, and I try and use Gosh instead of the other....and we manage. And I'm happy, I have my friend.

[davids]

I lied back again-I agree totally with Wizard but might even bump my post to a triple HA!!

I think!!?? Naw hell it is a triple! Oops I used a baaad woid!!!

[jennifer75]

Secondly, remind her of the Parable of the Sower (Mark 4:1-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%204:1-20;&version=31;), Matthew 13:1-23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2013:1-23;&version=31;), and Luke 8:1-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%208:1-15;&version=31;)). The seed (of the Gospel) will fall on all sorts of ground. It will take root in some and it won't in others. It's not the sower's responsibility to make the seed grow, only to cast the seeds. Your soil just isn't ready for it yet (and perhaps may never be ready), but that's not her responsibility. But it IS her responsibility to continue to sow seeds, which she can't if she cuts you off. Romans 10:14 says: "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?"

I don't know if you'd be comfortable with this approach or not, but it gives her a biblical basis to reconsider her actions.


I think that is a fantastic approach.

[deathwizard]

I lied back again-I agree totally with Wizard but might even bump my post to a triple HA!!

I think!!?? Naw hell it is a triple! Oops I used a baaad woid!!!

Triple it IS!!!!

[Bartholomew]

I'll try to put this dilemma to you short.

It's like this;

My Sister-In-Law, also my best friend and confidant, is a devoted Christian. Until now, as it has seemed to me, she has accepted my atheism, though with hesitation. Now things have changed. I am being corned into an impossible situation of "Chose Christ, or Get Lost.

As a hard atheist, or non-beleiver, I do not know what to to do, really. I have told her that I am willing to listen to whatever she has to say, but that I find it unlikely that she will be able to convert me. She responded by saying that she can not continue this friendship unless she can "missionary" (or whatever you wish to call it).

I love her. She means a lot to me. I wouldn't like to disappoint her, but to be honest I couldn't even begin to pretend that I believed in "The Christ" as she calls it.

Now, I have gotten the impression that eithet I convert, or I lose her friendship. To me that is being more or less confronted with an ultimatum. I'm not good as those things. Feel like I have been pushed into a corner.

No matter what I will still love her. But I am scared that she will put her belief-system between us if I don't even pretend to take hers under consideraton. I am also scared that she will influence her husband, MY Hubby's brother, to distance himself from us.

What would YOU do???

It seems to me that she isn't really your friend at all.

[Melisande]

Either way, we can coexist, we can go to lunch, we can hang out, and she accepts me, as I accept her now. I think the ultimatum is wrong and as long as you to don't clash with every conversation or action or continue to try to convert, you should be able to remain as friends, each with your own beliefs.

You know, ever since that episode, our friendship is different. My SIL (I'll call her that simply because it's short) doesn't talk to me the same way anymore. She is tap-dancing around the subject, makes 'sounds' eveytime she approaches the religious, tries to come up with farfetched words to describe what I know to be 'The Christ' (which always used to be her way of naming her God) and so on.

Our conversations do not flow easy anymore and it saddens me. A couple of times I've tried to ask her to be as natural as she was before about her belief, or even to hit me over the head with the Bible once in a while, for sport if for nothing else, but then she always says "Have to go, sorry" and leaves, or hangs up, sometimes not even politely.

It is sad, but I honestly feel that she made a choice to 'dump' me after all, but that she is too spineless to come out with the truth. So in the end, all she did was prove to me that the Christian faith is narrow-minded and not accepting at all, and something I feel even less attracted to today than I was before.

I miss her, even when she is there.

[jennifer75]

It is sad, but I honestly feel that she made a choice to 'dump' me after all, but that she is too spineless to come out with the truth. So in the end, all she did was prove to me that the Christian faith is narrow-minded and not accepting at all, and something I feel even less attracted to today than I was before.

I miss her, even when she is there.

I feel the same way about my friend, we had some very good fun times together, that we will probably never be able to do again because of her faith. Sure that may sound selfish, but that is the person I met, fell in friend with, and that is the person I miss. I still enjoy her today, and she shows signs of the person she used to be from time to time, scaled down of course, but I miss the old her.

You may have mentioned this, but I'm forgetfull and scatterbrained so I'm asking, did you know her long before her faith took over? I ask becasue my friend was truely miserable, unhealthy, and completely defeated when she turned to religion. Being in that state I think made it easy for her to let it take over as hard and as fast as it did and made it even easier for her to push it on others. It was overwhelming for her I'm sure. It seemed to me to be that way anyhow. Again, it's been a few years and she's toned things down, maybe this is the case with you SIL?

[Melisande]

You may have mentioned this, but I'm forgetfull and scatterbrained so I'm asking, did you know her long before her faith took over? I ask becasue my friend was truely miserable, unhealthy, and completely defeated when she turned to religion. Being in that state I think made it easy for her to let it take over as hard and as fast as it did and made it even easier for her to push it on others. It was overwhelming for her I'm sure. It seemed to me to be that way anyhow. Again, it's been a few years and she's toned things down, maybe this is the case with you SIL?

I've only known her about five and a half years. From day one she's been quoting the Bible to me, or referring to The Scripture, or expressing her admiration of 'The Christ' or the likes of it. She's always been enthusiastic about her faith, almost the way a schoolgirl has a crush on some moviestar or other. I don't think that we've ever had a conversation without her faith being mentioned (by her). She's also stated that 'The Christ' has been with her all her life. My Hubby confirms that. He has known her almost 30 years and he says that she was never any different.

I remember her absolute shock when she first found out I am a non-believer, which was about five minutes after we were introduced. Took her breath away for a moment it did. Somehow, aside from that, we became friends and I've learned to love and respect her. To me faith has never been an issue; it's an individual thing. I've sometimes been amazed, though, while speaking with her as to what extent religion can consume a person.

While thinking about it now, I realize that I have been sort of a passive receiver, like a radio tuned in to a station. Guess that I haven't made it really clear to her before to what extent I am a non-believer. So maybe I had it coming all the time, I just didn't ask for it before...

[jennifer75]

I remember her absolute shock when she first found out I am a non-believer, which was about five minutes after we were introduced. Took her breath away for a moment it did. Somehow, aside from that, we became friends and I've learned to love and respect her. To me faith has never been an issue; it's an individual thing. I've sometimes been amazed, though, while speaking with her as to what extent religion can consume a person.




Ok, now you've lost me. Don't worry, it's easy to do :)

Her shock was evident from the moment you told her, moments after meeting...what changed - up until now - that allowed for the relationship to build? Did you not talk about it, did she not ask, did it just never come up at all until now?

If she's been fine with it (or just the not mentioning of it was enough for her) for this long up until now, it must be a new person in her life/church/group that is bringing this out.

[Melisande]

Ok, now you've lost me. Don't worry, it's easy to do :)

Her shock was evident from the moment you told her, moments after meeting...what changed - up until now - that allowed for the relationship to build? Did you not talk about it, did she not ask, did it just never come up at all until now?



Oh yes, we've talked about it! Or rather, she's been talking and I've been doing the listening. Thanks to her I know the Bible a lot better now than I did 5 years ago, and I knew it rather well even then.

Thing is, I guess that maybe she kind of closed her mind to the fact that, even though I was listening, I didn't agree! Anyway, she and my BIL changed their lives quite dramatically about two years ago. It resulted in a lot of hardship for them. During this time I became sort of an anchor for her. Now I guess that she is somewhat, I don't know, disturbed by the fact that she has actually been helped by a non-believer.

Maybe I am over-analyzing here, but I get the impression that she is ashamed that the only person that stuck with her was an atheist. Why, I wouldn't know. I'm her friend for crying out loud!

[jennifer75]

You're going to have to talk with her. Sit down and talk. In the same room. That way she can't leave, or ask to call you back, etc. Face her and discuss the issue with her.

[paprikapink]

...During this time I became sort of an anchor for her. Now I guess that she is somewhat, I don't know, disturbed by the fact that she has actually been helped by a non-believer.

Maybe I am over-analyzing here, but I get the impression that she is ashamed that the only person that stuck with her was an atheist. ...

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Your very presence, the quality of your character, you being who you are without having to rely on her religion.... It's too challenging. She might have to question her beliefs if she accepts that you're really as good as you are.

I don't intend to imply that all adherents to religion are like this; it's about a personality type, a fairly weak personality, not the belief that person holds.

[otterman]

My signature sums up people like your sister-in-law.

[Nateskate]

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Your very presence, the quality of your character, you being who you are without having to rely on her religion.... It's too challenging. She might have to question her beliefs if she accepts that you're really as good as you are.

I don't intend to imply that all adherents to religion are like this; it's about a personality type, a fairly weak personality, not the belief that person holds.


It's fascinating to read your perspective. It's quite possible. For the record I am Christian, but used to be an atheist. And even as a Christian, so many of my views have changed as the years go by.

The "Rich Young Ruler" in the Bible- the guy who was locked to his money, was a very moral man, and also one who was very open to spiritual things, at least if they didn't touch his money. But the point is clear that people who don't follow Jesus can be equally or more moral than those who do.

Those who followed Jesus were at times very immature, and didn't get what he was saying, and so they told Jesus to tell the children to get lost. They were offended when the woman loved Jesus so much she poured her costly perfume on him. They fought over political power arguing who should sit on his left and right, assuming he was going to set up a political kingdom at that time.

So Christians can be quite immature, while non-Christians can be very moral. And when that mix combines, Christians are the ones who are most uncomfortable.

[Autodidact]

I'm so sorry that your SIL has lost your friendship, which I'm sure was valuable to her. You could let her know that if she ever changes her mind, you're still there for her. That should annoy her by (as usual) the atheist being the better person than the Christian.

[jennifer75]

A friend of the family recently sent a letter - it had been years since the last communication - anywho, she revealed that her youngest son now has four children of his own, all beautiful little girls.

So, her son and his girlfriend are not married, though they have been together for quite some time, four kids out of the relationship so far; So the girlfriend gave Grandma four beautiful grandchildren, she raises her kids on her own, she takes care of them, she sees that they are healthy and taken care of and loved, yet Grandma couldn't accept her into her life or heart until now that she has accepted Christ into her life as Grandmother has.

So, bearing her her grandchildren, and providing for her own kids, loving her own kids, taking care of her own family was not enough for her, until she found Christ. So now that she can do all of that, with Christ in her life, only now is she fully accepted by grandma.

Ridiculous.

[StephanieFox]

Some churches strongly encourage their members to avoid friendships with non-believers and also strongly encourage prothletizing. I'll bet she is getting pressure from a minister, lay leader or some member of her religion.

You can ask her about this. Of course, you can just smile and nod when she starts up with her religious talk.

Perhaps she doesn't realize the hurt she is causing, but that probably wouldn't make any difference. To some branches of the Christian religion, causing others pain is not a bad thing if it leads others to what they see as a proper path.

Remember, her idea is either you have accepted jesus as your savior or you will burn in hell forever.

Not all CHristians feel this way, of course. It's too bad your sister does.

[Melisande]

I'm so sorry that your SIL has lost your friendship, which I'm sure was valuable to her. You could let her know that if she ever changes her mind, you're still there for her. That should annoy her by (as usual) the atheist being the better person than the Christian.

My friendship and love for her is intact. We have spoken about this as I've mentioned in a previous post. It really helped.

[escritora]

I'm glad it worked out for you, Melisande.