Question - digital filmmaking / bachelors in digital filmmaking

[Nataanii]

What is digital filmmaking and if I got a bachelors in digital filmmaking, could that make be qualified to be a filmmaker? Or would I have to get a degree in regular filmmaking to be a filmmaker?

[NikeeGoddess]

there's really no such thing as being "qualified" in this business. anyone can be a filmmaker or screenwriter or producer, etc... you just have to know how to do it to do it. education is always a good thing so, if you want to make digital films then by all means learn how. if you want to write screenplays and then make them yourself this is the way to go too. if you want to get a job working on a film then you can say you have training and experience once you get this degree.
basically, you have to decide for yourself if it will be useful for you with whatever you want to do in the future.

[Medievalist]

I'm a little surprised that an accredited school would have a B.A. in digital film making; that's just a group of technologies, not an approach to film making. It's just ... odd.

[clockwork]

What is digital filmmaking and if I got a bachelors in digital filmmaking, could that make be qualified to be a filmmaker? Or would I have to get a degree in regular filmmaking to be a filmmaker?

Pick up a camera. Shoot something. You're a filmmaker. :)

I'm a little surprised that an accredited school would have a B.A. in digital film making; that's just a group of technologies, not an approach to film making. It's just ... odd.

Not really. The courses like this in the UK are regular film school courses which encompass all the teachings of filmmaking but they use digital cameras instead of 8 or 16 mm.

[Plot Device]

Nataanii, I want to ask, and you do NOT have to answer:

1) How old are you?

2) Are you in college right now?

3) Are you thinking of changing majors? Or are you trying to convvince (possibly your parents) that film school is a good thing right now?




I ask because you seem to be aproaching the realities of the movie industry with a non-reality set of otherwise understandable misconceptions. The following is my understanding of the REAL deal in Hollywood. Now I have never BEEN to Hollywood, but this is my understanding of it. Others here are welcome to disagree with my assertions here. But Hollywood is so unlike the rest of the world that it's been compared to being on another planet. Get the "degree" thing out of your head and instead think "people." Hollywood is all about people and experience, and people working together, and people liking other people, and people wanting to work with other people again in the future. People people people. Degrees are a non-issue.




1) You do NOT need a degree in ANYTHING to be a filmmaker. No one in Hollywood will consider one person more desirable than another because he has a degree and the other one doesn't. Your degree is so far down toward the bottom of the list in consideration that it's not even remotely worth worrying about.

2) People do NOT get hired in Hollywood because of education. They get hired for experience. So if one kid says he has a degree in filmmaking but never held a camera in his hands in his whole life, while another kid is a high school drop out with a fifth grade reading level who has been the writer/producer/director/editor of eight short films and one feature, and three of his films made it to major film festivals, and one of those films one an award ......... guess who they're gonna hire.

3) Get experience by volunteering to help out on an indie film project somewhere near you. Contact the local film comission in your city about any local projects going on right now (most cities require film projects to get permits to shoot, so some beaurocrat somewhere is going to KNOW if a film is going on, and when and where). Check craigslist and Mandy for ads concerning film projects in your area. Contact a film professor at a nearby college and ask that professor if a film student is making a film you can volunteer for. And if you are able to get onto a nearby indie film project--do whatever the heck they tell you to do, short of debasing yourself or breaking the law. If they tell you to go get coffee, then go get coffee. If they tell you to drive out to a camera store and pick up a package, go and get it. If they want you to help with makeup, then do it. This is all resume fodder. This is also relationship-building. Take names--keep a journal. Write down the names of everyone on your indie film shoot who was "cool" and who seems like they are maybe gonna be somebody some day. Get phone numbers. Get e-mail addresses. Keep this little black book. You will need it in the future because when you get to Hollywod, it's all about who you know. So if you ca call up somebody and say "Hey! Remember when you and I did that indie shoot together back in Cincinati eight years ago?" it might be the difference in helping you get a job.

4) Youth is a HUGE factor in Hollywood. So go there NOW. As in RIGHT NOW. Don't put it off for five or ten years. Do it NOW. If you can scrape together ten grand, get a really small cheap car and then get a crappy apartment in Santa Monica and then get yer butt down to Dreamworks and get a job as an unpaid intern. Live off of your ten grand for three months and be the best frigging intern Dreamworks ever saw. This means you need to fetch coffee and pick up people's dry cleaning and walk their dogs and answer the phones and deliver the mail. As long as you're on time every day, and you smile, and you don't smell funny, and you don't talk crap about people, they will like you and someone will eventually hire you as an assistant (as in they will hire you for actual MONEY). And then you will finally have a JOB in Hollywood. It won't pay much, but it's a job. And this kind of foot-in-the-door thing works for people in their early twenties, NOT people in their thirties or older -- Hollywood is guilty of agism out the wazoo. So do it NOW.

5) Do whatever you can to be on a set. If there's a job for a grip, take it! If there's a job for a makeup assitant, take it! Be ON THE SET! WATCH and SEE how a film is made.


6) So many people in Hollywood have degrees in non-film and non-writing fields it's laughable. Degrees in law, degrees in finance, degrees in psychology, degrees in education, degrees in engineering. You don't NEED a film degree, you just need film experience. So get experience.



It's all about people. People who can get the job done and who can get along with others. If you have successfully completed a film--even if it's a dumb piece of teenaged nonsense-- at least you COMPLETED an actual film. If you have a track record of being a quiet yet competant nicey-nice kind of kid on a set who got along and did as he was told, YOU will be fondly remembered far and above the joker who maybe got a few laughs out of peple by being a cut-up, yet who bucked authority and pissed people off. Hollywood wants people who are competant, who get along well, and who do as they are told. Deegrees are meaningless. Reasonable experience with prior film shoots, combined with a solid demonstration of successul people skills is the real key.



I have never been to Hollywood. So I invite anyone here to disagree.

[Plot Device]

One caveat ..............



........... There's probably only ONE job in all of Hollywood where you do not have to have either film experience or good people skills, and that is the job of a writer. Writing is a solitary job. You can smell funny and still craft a fine story. You can be camera-ignorant and still write a superbly cinematic script. But even then, you will probably eventualy have to GO to Hollywood and stand in a conference room before a bunch of studio executives, and should that blessed day ever arrive, you had better not smell funny or piss people off.

[zeprosnepsid]

Get the "degree" thing out of your head and instead think "people." Hollywood is all about people and experience, and people working together, and people liking other people, and people wanting to work with other people again in the future. People people people. Degrees are a non-issue.


It's worth noting that film school is all about 'people' and relationships. Most people who go to film school make connections that help them get jobs for the rest of their careers. Michael Davis, who just directed the film Shoot 'Em Up, struggled for years (working on films like Prehysteria and whatnot) and only eventually got a studio film because he knew Don Murphy at New Line because they went to film school together.

It's worth noting though that they went to USC. Which film school you go to makes a big difference on whether or not it's helpful to you getting jobs. A USC degree does open doors because of the so-called 'USC Mafia' in the film industry. UCLA and NYU will probably also get you somewhere because they are well respected and their graduates are all over the industry in positions of power.

But even some of the other film schools, especially the very technical ones (like Full Sail), will help you get some connections with people who will throw gigs your way.


No one in Hollywood will consider one person more desirable than another because he has a degree and the other one doesn't.

....

2) People do NOT get hired in Hollywood because of education. They get hired for experience.



But film school is considered a type of experience. If someone is trying to decide between two people with a bunch of p.a. credits, whoever went to an accredited film school will probably get hired first. This is because they assume you know what you're doing. That you know what all the equipment is called and how to use it and how to do things safely. It takes people who just work on set without an education a lot longer to pick up this stuff. It's always the p.a. with a lot of experience that gets his hands burned or gets an electric shock or whatever because they have not been properly trained. I hire p.a.s all the time for my documentary production company and I've never hired anyone who hasn't gone to at least some kind of film school.

That being said, you certainly don't need a degree, but it's disingenuous to say it doesn't actually help you. It helps you in a number of ways. But it's worth noting that it helps you more the better school that you go to. A community college program may teach you something, and that's valuable, but won't open the same doors.

Also, this is a screenwriting forum, so it's worth noting that film school (or at least a program like 'digital filmmaking' or any film production school) is really for learning technical elements of filmmaking. Screenwriters don't generally need that background. But if you want to be a grip, gaffer, cinematographer, editor, director -- these are things you will need to learn one way or the other. And if you find your self on set as a focus puller but the camera assistant dropped out last minute, if you don't know how to use the camera then you're not going to be the one getting this huge opportunity.

You'll find that there are a lot of positions in the film industry, most 'below the line' people in post production, where most people doing it went to film school. While you can learn to edit in your own home these days and learn to be a dolly grip on set, most people don't just pick up sound mixing on their own.


But again, that's for the technically aspects of film. So if you want to be a dialogue editor (good luck with that!), you should probably go to film school. If you want to write or produce then I wouldn't spend your money on a technical program (there are writing and producing programs if you want to spend your money on something).

[Plot Device]

But film school is considered a type of experience.

That I agree with.

That being said, you certainly don't need a degree, but it's disingenuous to say it doesn't actually help you. It helps you in a number of ways.


Again, I agree. To clarify, I somehow sensed that the OP was focusing on an almost 1950's -ish "get a good education and you'll get a good job" outlook, so I was trying to steer him away from the degree program focus and more toward the industry machinery focus. So I do agree wholeheartedly that film school is a place to make contacts as well. If I were to change anything in my post above it would be:

"If you DO go to film school, treasure the building of your little black book as much as the upholding of your GPA, maybe even moreso."

[Hillgate]

One caveat ..............



........... There's probably only ONE job in all of Hollywood where you do not have to have either film experience or good people skills, and that is the job of a writer. Writing is a solitary job. You can smell funny and still craft a fine story. You can be camera-ignorant and still write a superbly cinematic script. But even then, you will probably eventualy have to GO to Hollywood and stand in a conference room before a bunch of studio executives, and should that blessed day ever arrive, you had better not smell funny or piss people off.

I agree on the smell-thing. Good personal hygiene will get your picture green-lit. :)

BTW - I disagree with 'camera ignorant' unless you mean from a strictly cinematographical technical perspective - eg tungsten film? how many 400ft reels? Anamorphic or not? HOW much was that a reel? We can't afford a crane-shot? THAT much, huh? - OK I better shorten my 165 pages now or you'll just cut it....

You need to know how your scene will look in a frame, roughly, when it's on the page, otherwise you're not making the most of yourself....just don't tell the DoP or the director how to shoot it!!!

[Hillgate]

You can also meet lifelong friends at film school, or indeed any school, which can be very useful if you go to as high-powered a school as you can!!!

[NikeeGoddess]

There's probably only ONE job in all of Hollywood where you do not have to have either film experience or good people skills, and that is the job of a writer
technically this is true but it is SO wrong. sure you can write but without good people skills you may not be able to sell what you write. selling involves pitching and taking meetings. the initial contact may be over the internet but after that you have to be able to hold your own in a room full of industry folks and sell your story by selling yourself in the process.

take adaptation for example: brother one was an excellent writer with no people skills. he was able to get writing assignments based on his skill. brother two was a hack who took one screenwriting seminar and sold because he (not only followed a strict storytelling success formula) had great people skills. his story was crap. and you can sell crap too with networking, contacts, and great people skills.

in this case you develop your network and have contacts in place via getting any kind of industry education. and the more you know about the business as a whole the better your "writing for the screen" will be. you could one day get a writing assignment rewriting someone else's script in shooting format. who knows?! never knock education.

[Nataanii]

Ok, QUESTION ONE: I dont mind buying a camera and directing my own film, but if I dont go to film school, how will I know how to do dolly grip and all the things I CAN'T learn on my own? QUESTION TWO: So, you all are saying, get a camera, make a low budget but GREAT film and send it to Sundance Film Festival, and if it wins BIG TIME, MAYBE someone will notice it and say hey, she did really good at making this film, let's try her out as say.....maybe asst. Director?

Also, I do know one star---my cousin Dave Chappelle, but he's so hard to get in contact with. I'm 23 by the way, and know diddley squat film or filmmaking.

[Plot Device]

Ok, QUESTION ONE: I dont mind buying a camera and directing my own film, but if I dont go to film school, how will I know how to do dolly grip and all the things I CAN'T learn on my own? QUESTION TWO: So, you all are saying, get a camera, make a low budget but GREAT film and send it to Sundance Film Festival, and if it wins BIG TIME, MAYBE someone will notice it and say hey, she did really good at making this film, let's try her out as say.....maybe asst. Director?

Also, I do know one star---my cousin Dave Chappelle, but he's so hard to get in contact with. I'm 23 by the way, and know diddley squat film or filmmaking.

Nataanii, there are a couple of ways to approach almost any subject, one is a scientific way: do experiments with filmmaking. Another is a historical way: read up on the history of filmmakers. Now I regret I have not had opportunty to do too much of the scientific thing (hold a camera in my hands) but I have DEFINITELY done a lot of the historical thing (read up on the life histories of great filmmakers). And according to my historical research, almost every great filmmaker started off VERY YOUNG (as in a teenager) with a camera in his hands, shooting total nonsense in his parents' back yard. This includes Spielberg, Kubrick, Shyamalan, and a whole slew of others.

Here's what Kubrick said about the ambition of being a filmmaker:

Perhaps it sounds ridiculous, but the best thing that young filmmakers should do is to get hold of a camera and some film and make a movie of any kind at all.

Don't worry if you don't know about grips and dollies and stuff like that. Just get a GD effin' camera and effin' SHOOT SOMETHING!

Anythnig at all. Just shoot it. And today, in the digital age, you have greater ease of processing and storage than what Kubrick and Spielberg and even Shyamalan had to cope with. Processing is non-existent, and storage is just a harddrive away.

Just shoot something. Take a dumb blonde joke, write a two page script based o the joke, and hire two of your friends to play in it, and shoot the entire joke. It'll be three minutes long, but at least it will be a film that YOU shot and that YOU completed. And read a few books on making films and read some indie magazines, and then these terms and these vocabulary words (like dolly grip and tracking shot, etc) will come to you--they'll sink in--because you have been shooting and also because you have been reading the books and magazines and also because you have been interacting with others in the industry. You will also start to watch movies differently--you will recognize certain camera techniques in the movies you watch. And you'll be like "Yeah! I did that just last week!"

But the FIRST thing you need to do is get the camera IN YOUR HANDS and SHOOT!

[RichHelms]

I am doing somewhat the opposite. I am 56 years old and own a software company. Film has been an interest all of my life but only recently am I acting on it. I ordered a number of books and am attending a 2-day workshop in Toronto in Sept. I am familiar with the technical side, as I have done work in digital image and video for many years. Most of my focus was on image but recently have expanded the video side.

My goal this year is to produce my own small indie film. I use the term film but it will be video. My objective is not a new career in film but expanding my expertise when I sell this company.

The web has opened a whole avenue for video. My 30 years in computer R&D have all focused on personal computer, multi-media and the web. The creative side of film interests me.

[small axe]

It comes down to "what can you do (for us, to make $$$ for us)?" ...

You might "know" people who can give you an opportunity, but then it'll be "to do what?" if you cannot do anything given the opportunity.

Opportunity is good ... but only because it turns into Experience, reel, and ability to prove What You Can Do ... to the people who can pay you to do Bigger Career Things.

So my take would be: yes, you need Connections and Skillz (talent and skill) ...

Having proof of Skillz can make you the Connections in a day. ""You gotta use this kid, does amazing stuff" from someone Important ... is better than "I have a Degree but nothing to show, I know Mr. Spielberg but nothing to show." Spielberg knows LOTSA people: Spielberg wants to know "What can you do?"

It's not either/or, film school-wise ... But I'd rather have some amazing film (or video) to show people than a Dregree and a Connection (without amazing film) ...

People IN the Biz aren't impressed by "knowing people" because they already have that. They want to know who can DO GREAT STUFF rather than merely "know people" imo

Walk it, don't talk it.

Film school can give you access to equipment and crew and cast, can give you the opportunity to SHOOT some stuff. So can working at the bowling alley and maxing out the credit card, then shooting inspired Stuff that excites Hollywood.

But if you know you NEED TO LEARN the basics, Film School will do that for you. Certainly, BSU has a Digital Media program, and many Universities may call their film schools something Digital now ... they say it's the Coming Thing, you know. :)

Just imo. Do you have it INSIDE YOU to impress, or do you need learnin'? But NO SCHOOL will teach you Talent. The first thing you shoot and screw up horribly won't teach you Talent. But shoot enough, and Talent will reveal itself ... and no degree and no connection will ever do that for you.

imo.

You should listen to me, too ... because if you dropped MY name in Hollywood ... it would hit the floor with Newtonian acceleration! :D

[Nataanii]

Ok, thank you all so much for your advice. I think that I will take all of you all's advice---especially Plot Device's advice. I'm going to buy me a video camera, get some good friends (I don't have ANY friends now.) and make this film, I have had in myhead a while now about satanic rituals and the occult. It should be good. Then maybe I'll make a documentary, after I make it, I will try to enter it into a film festival and see what happens there. LOL, I do know actor Garret Dillahunt too (He played on Deadwood and John From Cincinatti), so at least that's a small connection. LOL

[Mac H.]

take adaptation for example: brother one was an excellent writer with no people skills. he was able to get writing assignments based on his skill. brother two was a hack who took one screenwriting seminar and sold because he (not only followed a strict storytelling success formula) had great people skills. his story was crap. and you can sell crap too with networking, contacts, and great people skills.Err ... you do realise that this part of adaptation is fiction?

There were no two brothers. It was a running joke of the film - the fictitious 'hack' brother didn't exist.

Mac

[NikeeGoddess]

There were no two brothers. It was a running joke of the film - the fictitious 'hack' brother didn't exist.
i know. and i just loved it. anyhoo - it fit the discussion.

Nat - if you live in DC then you should join the salon group from women in film. there all about making small independent films if that's what you want to do.

[Hillgate]

i know. and i just loved it. anyhoo - it fit the discussion.

Nat - if you live in DC then you should join the salon group from women in film. there all about making small independent films if that's what you want to do.

I live about 4000 miles from DC but I like the sound of this salon group. My only worry is that my louche European idea of what constitutes a proper salon might not tally with the DC version...;)

[zeprosnepsid]

I think that I will take all of you all's advice---especially Plot Device's advice. I'm going to buy me a video camera, get some good friends (I don't have ANY friends now.) and make this film, I have had in myhead a while now about satanic rituals and the occult.

I really dislike it when people suggest 'just going and making it yourself' to people who don't have the experience to do so. I think it's so irresponsible to tell people that they to can make a movie and have them waste a lot of money and a lot of time and get their hopes up for nothing. If you can make your movie cheap and not go broke doing it then fine, go for it. But otherwise, I think this'll probably be a pretty big waste of your money until you understand filmmaking a little better.

From your posts here it's clear you're a relative newbie to the whole film thing (that's fine, everyone's a newbie at some point). I suggest picking up a book or two on filmmaking, the film business, screenwriting or whatever it is you ultimately want to do and begin educating yourself. While not all successful filmmakers go to film school, 99.99% of successful filmmakers are highly educated in film. There are numerous resources available for you to learn on your own. I suggest spending a couple months reading books, reading scripts and watching movies before you even consider going anywhere near a camera.


In your other post you mention Cannes and Sundance. I suggest watching the caliber of films from the last few years festivals and until you are convinced that you understand directing actors like they do, screenplay structure like they do, how to set up a shot like they do -- then really, don't bother.

Sure, you can learn these things by doing them, but with no background that'll take you forever. I can learn to build a computer by doing it, but I'll do it a lot better if I take a class or read a book on doing it first.

[dpaterso]

I'm just saying, there are plenty of "how to make a film" websites out there, do a Google search and you'll find numerous links. Here's one just for fun's sake:

http://www.exposure.co.uk/eejit/index.html

-Derek

[Plot Device]

I really dislike it when people suggest 'just going and making it yourself' to people who don't have the experience to do so. I think it's so irresponsible to tell people that they to can make a movie and have them waste a lot of money and a lot of time and get their hopes up for nothing.

I personally would not suggest he make a feature. I instead want to suggest he shoot lots and lots of silly nonsense in his parents' back yard. A three-minute dumb blonde joke was one of my suggestions. Just to get a feel for the camera. Just to be able to have something he can edit. Just to be able to have something he can finish. It might take three hours to shoot and nine hours to edit, and then he'll have a whopping three minute-long film. But at least he'll have something that he made himself AND (most importantly) that he completed himself.

And then of course there's always Lady X.

[NikeeGoddess]

pd - he is a she btw

anyhoo - Nat, if you're still around... like i said in the first post. it depends on what you want to do. here, most of us are screenwriters, not filmmakers. there are independent filmmaker forums that could help you more than we can here if that's the route you want to go. and you should join http://www.wif.org/ they have a student rate for membership and their own forum as well. lots of real local help and you can find industry jobs there as well.