Tricky question

[pansy]

I have a character who at one point is seen reflected in glass during dialogue. Is this considered on camera or off camera?

Should the dialogue be (O.C.) ?

A

[NikeeGoddess]

if the character speaking is the one in the mirror then she's "on camera".

[jonpiper]

if the character speaking is the one in the mirror then she's "on camera".


Although her mirror image is on screen, the real Her is offscreen. So, technically, She is not "on camera", She is off screen. Perhaps the dialogue needs an O.S. extension.

INT. BEDROOM - NIGHT

MARCIA, eightyish, and BOB, thirties, stand face to face.

MARCIA
Life is short.

BOB
You've lived well.

Marcia turns to the dresser mirror. In the mirror, she appears much younger.

MARCIA (O.S.}
(lower)
Please come here, Bob.

Note: I believe O.C. is for TV scripts and O.S. (off screen) is used in movie screenplays.


Just my take.

[nmstevens]

I have a character who at one point is seen reflected in glass during dialogue. Is this considered on camera or off camera?

Should the dialogue be (O.C.) ?

A

Here's the deal. The whole point of "O.C." is a technical one. Essentially, they need to know whether the actor in question needs to literally to be there on the set during that shot/scene/set up.

If I have a scene in which Joe is inside, and he hears Mary shout to him from outside, and we don't see Mary, but only hear her shout, that's "O.C." -- because, from a production stand-point, Mary doesn't have to be there for that set-up. An assistant can say Mary's lines off camera.

Quite simply, if your character is visible on camera, whether in a mirror or otherwise, then she's on camera. She's got to be there. She's got to be on the call sheet. They've got to pay her for the day. She's got to literally be there, at the time, saying the line.

The issue, from a production stand-point, is not where, in the set, an actor is, but really, does the actor actually have to be there, or are we only dealing with the actor's voice during a particular shot/scene/sequence.

Because if it's literally just the voice, as a rule, the actor doesn't have to be there, so they don't need to schedule the actor to come in. They'll do it later in ADR. That's "O.C."

NMS

[jonpiper]

Here's the deal. The whole point of "O.C." is a technical one. Essentially, they need to know whether the actor in question needs to literally to be there on the set during that shot/scene/set up.

If I have a scene in which Joe is inside, and he hears Mary shout to him from outside, and we don't see Mary, but only hear her shout, that's "O.C." -- because, from a production stand-point, Mary doesn't have to be there for that set-up. An assistant can say Mary's lines off camera.

Quite simply, if your character is visible on camera, whether in a mirror or otherwise, then she's on camera. She's got to be there. She's got to be on the call sheet. They've got to pay her for the day. She's got to literally be there, at the time, saying the line.

The issue, from a production stand-point, is not where, in the set, an actor is, but really, does the actor actually have to be there, or are we only dealing with the actor's voice during a particular shot/scene/sequence.

Because if it's literally just the voice, as a rule, the actor doesn't have to be there, so they don't need to schedule the actor to come in. They'll do it later in ADR. That's "O.C."

NMS

I'm glad you clarified this, because I tend to complicate things, while I'm still learning, and after a year of writing screenplays, I'm still learning.

I thought dialogue extensions in a Spec Script, e.g., V.O. and O.S. and O.C., were for the Reader's benefit rather than for the production people.

In the mirror example, a Reader will respond to the scene differently, depending on how I write the dialogue.

Do I want the voice to come from the mirror image of the character, from the character shown on screen, or from the character not shown?

MARCIA
Here the shot is the real Marcia and
we see the real Marcia speaking

MARCIA (O.S.)
While looking at the younger image
of Marcia in the mirror, we hear the
real Marcia, who we don't see, speaking.

MARCIA (V.O.)
We hear the image of Marcia speaking.

The effects, though perhaps subtle, are all different.
That's the way I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[nmstevens]

I'm glad you clarified this, because I tend to complicate things, while I'm still learning, and after a year of writing screenplays, I'm still learning.

I thought dialogue extensions in a Spec Script, e.g., V.O. and O.S. and O.C., were for the Reader's benefit rather than for the production people.

In the mirror example, a Reader will respond to the scene differently, depending on how I write the dialogue.

Do I want the voice to come from the mirror image of the character, from the character shown on screen, or from the character not shown?

MARCIA
Here the shot is the real Marcia and
we see the real Marcia speaking

MARCIA (O.S.)
While looking at the younger image
of Marcia in the mirror, we hear the
real Marcia, who we don't see, speaking.

MARCIA (V.O.)
We hear the image of Marcia speaking.

The effects, though perhaps subtle, are all different.
That's the way I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

One must understand that, to a certain extent, many of the convention of screenwriting -- things like INT, EXT -- DAY, NIGHT -- are there for production purposes -- really, the whole slug line, are there for production purposes.

As the process has changed over the years, scripts have gone through a process where they have become, at certain times during their existence, less production oriented, something more intended as a sales tool -- but they are still fundamentally production documents. That is their ultimate destination.

As far as I've ever been able to tell, O.S. and O.C. are the same thing. How exactly can one be on camera and off screen, or on screen and off camera -- unless you're talking about some sort of effect, such as you're on a TV monitor, or you're a ghost floating in the air -- in which case, it's indicated as such, and it's neither O.S. nor O.C. -- it's ON MONITOR or it's an effect.

V.O. is different. It refers to a voice -- either that of a narrator that is not a character/participant in the story, or one who is -- whose voice is heard -- but who is not a participant in the *scene* at the time.

That is, V.O. can apply to someone commenting on the action. The gods talking about what's happening in the scene. It can be a "voice" flashback, dialogue overlapping from an earlier scene or leading in from a scene coming up -- anything along those lines.

Anything like that is V.O.

But if it is the voice of somebody who is present in the "world" of the scene, but intended, for dramatic purposes, to be unseen -- then you use O.C.

On the other hand, if the ghost of Christmas Past, or a character's younger self is there -- if the character is aware of him -- it's just another character and should be treated as such. If he's present on screen (or in a mirror -- it's the same thing) -- no V.O., no O.C.

If he he's that character's voice coming from somewhere -- and he's present in the scene -- then it's O.C.

If *we* -- that is, the audience/reader, hear the voice, but the character does not, or if what we are hearing is simple the recollection of that character, that is, what we see is him sitting silently and what we hear is essentially, "Yes, I remember way back when, when Jody and I were, yadda, yadda, yadda..." -- then that's also V.O. --

-- unless a doppleganger character who is actually saying those words suddenly pops up somewhere (strange though that might be) -- in which case, it would be O.C. -- and a very odd scene.

NMS

[jonpiper]

Great post nms. Just a couple of comments.

One must understand that, to a certain extent, many of the convention of screenwriting -- things like INT, EXT -- DAY, NIGHT -- are there for production purposes -- really, the whole slug line, are there for production purposes.

As the process has changed over the years, scripts have gone through a process where they have become, at certain times during their existence, less production oriented, something more intended as a sales tool -- but they are still fundamentally production documents. That is their ultimate destination'

As far as I've ever been able to tell, O.S. and O.C. are the same thing. How exactly can one be on camera and off screen, or on screen and off camera -- unless you're talking about some sort of effect, such as you're on a TV monitor, or you're a ghost floating in the air -- in which case, it's indicated as such, and it's neither O.S. nor O.C. -- it's ON MONITOR or it's an effect.

The only difference I've found is O.C. is used in TV scripts and O.S. is favored in movie screenplays.

V.O. is different. It refers to a voice -- either that of a narrator that is not a character/participant in the story, or one who is -- whose voice is heard -- but who is not a participant in the *scene* at the time.

That is, V.O. can apply to someone commenting on the action. The gods talking about what's happening in the scene. It can be a "voice" flashback, dialogue overlapping from an earlier scene or leading in from a scene coming up -- anything along those lines.

Anything like that is V.O.

But if it is the voice of somebody who is present in the "world" of the scene, but intended, for dramatic purposes, to be unseen -- then you use O.C.

Right. But you seem to agree that when we write O.C. or O.S. into the screenplay, we may do it for dramatic or narrative purposes NOT production purposes.

On the other hand, if the ghost of Christmas Past, or a character's younger self is there -- if the character is aware of him -- it's just another character and should be treated as such. If he's present on screen (or in a mirror -- it's the same thing) -- no V.O., no O.C.

Here is where the "trick question" raises its head. Depending on the circumstances in the scene, the voice may or may not be comming from the mirror image.

The character may be talking to her mirror image (her younger self), in which case the mirror image is a speaking character. No O.S. or O.C. required.

The real character may be off screen and we see only her/his mirror image, in which case I think your paragraph below would cover it.

If he he's that character's voice coming from somewhere -- and he's present in the scene -- then it's O.C.

If *we* -- that is, the audience/reader, hear the voice, but the character does not, or if what we are hearing is simple the recollection of that character, that is, what we see is him sitting silently and what we hear is essentially, "Yes, I remember way back when, when Jody and I were, yadda, yadda, yadda..." -- then that's also V.O. --

-- unless a doppleganger character who is actually saying those words suddenly pops up somewhere (strange though that might be) -- in which case, it would be O.C. -- and a very odd scene.

NMS
:)

[nmstevens]

Great post nms. Just a couple of comments.


:)

Okay, I think I understand what the situation here is -- and it involves neither V.O. nor O.C., nor O.S.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you have here is a scene in which a person is talking to a younger version of himself (or herself?) which he sees in a mirror.

Neither of them, in the course of the scene are actually off screen. You can see both of them. It's just that, at various points in the scene, sometimes the older version of the character is talking, sometimes the younger version in the mirror is talking.

So it's not as if you have one character, Bob, in the bathroom, and another, Carol, reflected in a mirror, and they're simply having a scene together.

You have something to the effect of Middle-aged Bob standing in front of a mirror and Teen-aged Bob reflected in the mirror and they talk.

Well, the best way to do this -- presuming that Middle-Aged Bob has, through-out the course of the story simply been referred to as "Bob" -- is to refer to the reflected image as "BOB AS A YOUNG MAN" or "YOUNG BOB" or "TEENAGE BOB" "BOB AS A BOY" or something along those lines, to distinguish him from the elder Bob. And then you simply have them converse as if they were two different characters.

The whole "O.C." issue is really completely beside the point in this situation.

NMS

[jonpiper]

Okay, I think I understand what the situation here is -- and it involves neither V.O. nor O.C., nor O.S.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you have here is a scene in which a person is talking to a younger version of himself (or herself?) which he sees in a mirror.
NMS

First, I must apologize to Pansy for hijacking her thread. I have no idea what Pansy's scene involved, and I created a scene and some possible variations on it in order to illustrate my points.

Pansy, was your original question answered during this discussion?

NMS, I've gotta go now. Some things are clearing up, but I'd like to pursue this a bit more, later, if you don't mind.

[jonpiper]

OK, back from the the movies. No mirror scenes, by the way.

Pansy, why don't you give us a description of your scene with the mirror so we can discuss it?

NMS here is a better description of what's happening in the original scene I wrote in my first post above.

As the scene opens, the camera is on Bob, thirties, and Marcia, eighties, who are in the middle of a bedroom, facing each other, talking.

The camera then angles on a mirror on the wall behind Bob. Now we see Bob and the mirror image of Marcia. The mirror image of Marcia changes from her old self to her as a young woman. The real Marcia is not in this second shot, but she is looking in the mirror.

INT. BEDROOM - NIGHT

Marcia and Bob stand a few feet from each other in the middle of the room.

Marcia takes a step toward Bob.

MARCIA
Aren't I attractive to you?

Bob steps back.

BOB
You're a wonderful woman. Once you would have attracted me.

In the mirror behind Bob we see the mirror image of Marcia, which changes into Marcia as a young woman.

MARCIA (O.S.)
Once? I still knock them out.


RMS, the question is: Do we want the mirror image to speak the last line or do we want the real Marcia, who is off screen, to speak the last line?

[nmstevens]

OK, back from the the movies. No mirror scenes, by the way.

Pansy, why don't you give us a description of your scene with the mirror so we can discuss it?

NMS here is a better description of what's happening in the original scene I wrote in my first post above.

As the scene opens, the camera is on Bob, thirties, and Marcia, eighties, who are in the middle of a bedroom, facing each other, talking.

The camera then angles on a mirror on the wall behind Bob. Now we see Bob and the mirror image of Marcia. The mirror image of Marcia changes from her old self to her as a young woman. The real Marcia is not in this second shot, but she is looking in the mirror.

INT. BEDROOM - NIGHT

Marcia and Bob stand a few feet from each other in the middle of the room.

Marcia takes a step toward Bob.

MARCIA
Aren't I attractive to you?

Bob steps back.

BOB
You're a wonderful woman. Once you would have attracted me.

In the mirror behind Bob we see the mirror image of Marcia, which changes into Marcia as a young woman.

MARCIA (O.S.)
Once? I still knock them out.


RMS, the question is: Do we want the mirror image to speak the last line or do we want the real Marcia, who is off screen, to speak the last line?


Okay -- here's the deal. If it's the "young Marcia" that speaks the line -- since it it's a different actress, then you need to make that very clear, because there's a big difference between hiring someone who is simply going to stand there and look young and resemble an older actress and casting someone who is going to look young, resemble an older actress, and also deliver a line of dialogue.

So if it is the young version of Marcia in the mirror who speaks, you should probably do something like:

YOUNG MARCIA IN MIRROR
Once? I still knock them out.

If it's not, then you'd need to make that clear -- An IMAGE of MARCIA AS A YOUNG GIRL appears in the Mirror.

Then, I suppose, you might use O.S., if you're really committed to it -- but I'm still not exactly sure why you would want to.

If you are asking me how this scene works best, dramatically -- the question you always have to ask yourself is -- *where* in the dramatic space is the scene happening when a line is being spoken?

The image in the mirror, at least insofar as I can divine just from this little piece of scene, is the externalized memory of herself as a young woman (that is, it's not like a literal ghost or something). But her "memory" is not where the scene is happening at this moment. It's not in the past. It's not with Bob.

It's with her. It's what she's feeling when she says this line. That's where I'd like to be, what I'd like to be seeing.

Bob says his line. We see her as a young woman in the mirror -- and then we go to *her* for her line -- we don't stay on the mirror. We've seen the girl in the mirror. We want to see her right now, see what's happening in her face when she says the line.

So my best suggestion to you would be to make it clear that it's a younger version of her in the mirror -- and leave out the O.S.

If you are afraid of some uncertainty as to which Marcia is talking, you might consider making some reference to her expression prior to her speaking, or to the fact that she looks at herself in the mirror -- something that, in effect, "describes" the shot that precedes the line.

Just my two cents worth.

NMS

[jonpiper]

So if it is the young version of Marcia in the mirror who speaks, you should probably do something like:

YOUNG MARCIA IN MIRROR
Once? I still knock them out.

If it's not, then you'd need to make that clear -- An IMAGE of MARCIA AS A YOUNG GIRL appears in the Mirror.

Then, I suppose, you might use O.S., if you're really committed to it -- but I'm still not exactly sure why you would want to.

If you are asking me how this scene works best, dramatically -- the question you always have to ask yourself is -- *where* in the dramatic space is the scene happening when a line is being spoken?
[Excellent advice.]

The image in the mirror, at least insofar as I can divine just from this little piece of scene, is the externalized memory of herself as a young woman (that is, it's not like a literal ghost or something). But her "memory" is not where the scene is happening at this moment. It's not in the past. It's not with Bob. [Excellent point!]

It's with her. It's what she's feeling when she says this line. That's where I'd like to be, what I'd like to be seeing.

Bob says his line. We see her as a young woman in the mirror -- and then we go back to *her* for her line -- we don't stay on the mirror. We've seen the girl in the mirror. We want to see her right now, see what's happening in her face when she says the line.

So my best suggestion to you would be to make it clear that it's a younger version of her in the mirror [or that she sees her younger self in the mirror, then go back to her present self]-- and leave out the O.S.

If you are afraid of some uncertainty as to which Marcia is talking, you might consider making some reference to her expression prior to her speaking, or to the fact that she looks at herself in the mirror -- something that, in effect, "describes" the shot that precedes the line.

Just my two cents worth.

NMS

NMS, that's worth a fortune. Thank you! Perhaps the following will work.:)

INT. BEDROOM - NIGHT

Marcia and Bob stand a few feet from each other in the middle of the room.

Marcia takes a step toward Bob.

MARCIA
Aren't I attractive to you?

Bob steps back.

BOB
You're a wonderful woman. Once you would have attracted me.

Marcia stares beyond Bob into a

MIRROR

The mirror image of Marcia becomes Marcia as a young woman.

Marcia turns from Bob and the mirror.

MARCIA
Once? I haven't changed.

I still wonder what prompted Pansy to ask the original question. What specific scene were you working on Pansy?

[pansy]

At this point, I will consider the character on camera. It's not a mirror by the way, but rather reflected in the glass of a picture, so she's a little obscured, not like in a mirror.

p

www.alexwhitmer.wordpress.com

[NikeeGoddess]

like i said ;)

[jonpiper]

like i said ;)

Yeah, Nikee, I did complicate matters. :D But . . . some insigsts came out of the discussion. No?

Now, Smarty, what if the mirror is replaced by a video monitor?

On the VIDEO SCREEN is a shot of the character, speaking, and the character is not in the shot.:) Then how do we handle it when the shot in the video is of the character speaking before the scene takes place and we also see the character watching the video.

[nmstevens]

Yeah, Nikee, I did complicate matters. :D But . . . some insigsts came out of the discussion. No?

Now, Smarty, what if the mirror is replaced by a video monitor?

On the VIDEO SCREEN is a shot of the character, speaking, and the character is not in the shot.:) Then how do we handle it when the shot in the video is of the character speaking before the scene takes place and we also see the character watching the video.


INT. - A ROOM - DAY

A MONITOR is playing.

ON THE MONITOR --

A SHOT of JOHN at a podium, dressed in a conservative suit, lecturing an unseen crowd.

JOHN ON MONITOR
It's time we proved to the world that we can
make a difference; that we have the courage
to take hold of history while it's happening,
instead of just watching it go by --

IN THE ROOM -- watching the scene on the monitor unfold, is none other than John himself, now dressed in a tee shirt and jeans, sipping a cup of coffee, studying himself, his own performance, intensely.


Something like that.

NMS

[jonpiper]

INT. - A ROOM - DAY

A MONITOR is playing.

ON THE MONITOR --

A SHOT of JOHN at a podium, dressed in a conservative suit, lecturing an unseen crowd.

JOHN ON MONITOR
It's time we proved to the world that we can
make a difference; that we have the courage
to take hold of history while it's happening,
instead of just watching it go by --

IN THE ROOM -- watching the scene on the monitor unfold, is none other than John himself, now dressed in a tee shirt and jeans, sipping a cup of coffee, studying himself, his own performance, intensely.


Something like that.

NMS

That looks clear and clean. Would the following work too?

INT. - A ROOM - DAY

John wears a tee shirt and jeans. Sips coffee and views a TV monitor.

ON THE MONITOR --

A SHOT of JOHN at a podium, dressed in a conservative suit, lecturing an unseen crowd.

JOHN (V.O.)
It's time we proved to the world that we can
make a difference; that we have the courage
to take hold of history while it's happening,
instead of just watching it go by --

IN THE ROOM --

John throws the remote control to the floor.

JOHN
Bu****it

ON THE MONITOR --

JOHN (V.O.)
Furthermore, we must -

JOHN (O.S.)
Oh my God!

[NikeeGoddess]

IN THE ROOM --

John throws the remote control to the floor.

JOHN
Bu****it

ON THE MONITOR --

JOHN (V.O.)
Furthermore, we must -

JOHN (O.S.)
Oh my God!
i dont get this bit. why would john say, "bullshit" if it was his speech?
and you don't need the (O.S.)

[jonpiper]

i dont get this bit. why would john say, "bullshit" if it was his speech?
and you don't need the (O.S.)

Perhaps he realizes what he said was bullshit. He could have said anything. I wanted to illustrate dialogue from the live John while the live John was back in the shot.

When ONLY the monitor is in the shot, dialogue from John on the monitor is JOHN (V.O.) and dialogue from the live John, who is not on screen, should be -- I think -- JOHN (O.S.).

I was attempting to illustrate all the possible variations of dialogue extensions.:)

Perhaps the following illustrates it better.

INT. - A ROOM - DAY

John wears a tee shirt and jeans. Sips coffee and views a TV monitor.

ON THE MONITOR --

A SHOT of JOHN at a podium, dressed in a conservative suit, lecturing an unseen crowd.

JOHN (V.O.)
It's time we proved to the world that we can
make a difference; that we have the courage
to take hold of history while it's happening,
instead of just watching it go by --

IN THE ROOM --

John throws the remote control to the floor.

JOHN
God. I sound terrible.

ON THE MONITOR --

JOHN (V.O.)
Furthermore, we must

As the monitor plays, someone in the room shouts.

VOICE (O.S.)
He killed her.

JOHN (O.S.)
Who, killed her?

[nmstevens]

That looks clear and clean. Would the following work too?

INT. - A ROOM - DAY

John wears a tee shirt and jeans. Sips coffee and views a TV monitor.

ON THE MONITOR --

A SHOT of JOHN at a podium, dressed in a conservative suit, lecturing an unseen crowd.

JOHN (V.O.)
It's time we proved to the world that we can
make a difference; that we have the courage
to take hold of history while it's happening,
instead of just watching it go by --

IN THE ROOM --

John throws the remote control to the floor.

JOHN
Bu****it

ON THE MONITOR --

JOHN (V.O.)
Furthermore, we must -

JOHN (O.S.)
Oh my God!

No. The above is not correct.

Jonn, on the monitor is most definitely *not* voice over. The voice on the monitor is *part of the scene* -- that is, it is part of the reality of the scene, part of the universe of the scene.

I REMEMBER MAMA opens with the narrator, who is also a character in the story, talking about the various characters -- in VOICE OVER, and we, the audience hear her voice, while we see the various characters going about their lives.

But they -- the characters, don't hear her. That voice, is not a part of the "universe" of those scenes. It is separate. The characters who inhabit that world -- that "dramatic reality" -- are completely unaware of that voice. They don't hear it, don't know it exists. Only we, the audience, hear it.

That's VOICE OVER.

The only time that convention is violated is in the context of a comedy that breaks the "fourth wall" -- where a character might abruptly talk to the narrator or the narrator talk to a character for comedic effect.

Likewise, there's no reason for you ever to describe John as Off Screen.

You open with him in the room with the monitor. Then, suddenly, he's O.S.

Where did he go? As far as I can tell, he's still in the same chair, watching the same monitor.

If this is simply your way of saying that the shot should be on the monitor rather than on John -- this is not only micromanaging the coverage of a scene in a way that is unnecessary, it's a very confusing and awkward way of doing it.

In the scene as you've written it above, there is no reason at all to have any O.S. and no reason to have any V.O. at all.

He's watching himself on the monitor. When he speaks on the monitor, it should be JOHN ON THE MONITOR. When it's just John in the room, it's just JOHN.

Simple. Clear. Obvious.

The people who are reading these things are going to be reading fast. Your script may be the tenth they've read that day. Don't confuse them.

NMS

[clockwork]

INT. TV SET - NIGHT

As we see SIDNEY-ANN STRONGIN, a young and attractive PBS
talk show hostess for a show called Inside Media.

SIDNEY-ANN
The New York Literary world was shocked
this week when William Spungeon, the most
famously reclusive author since J.D.
Salinger, announced that he was coming
out of hiding because of his loyalty to a
small children's bookstore on the West
Side of Manhattan. Discussing this
tonight is a man I happen to think of as
one of this city's most underappreciated
assets, Frank Navasky.

FRANK
Thank you.

SIDNEY-ANN
This all happened because of you, didn't
it --

FRANK
Well, I knew William Spungeon loved
children's books so I wrote a provocative
column --

SIDNEY-ANN
Your specialty.

Frank laughs. Sidney-Ann laughs.

FRANK
And it kind of smoked him out.

INT. KATHLEEN'S BEDROOM - NIGHT

As she and Frank watch the television show.

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Technologically speaking, the world's
out of hand. Take the VCR. The whole
idea of a VCR is that it makes it possible
for you to tape what's on television
while you're out of the house. But the
whole point of being out of the house is
so you can miss what's on television.
Radio. Now there's a medium I can get
behind.

SIDNEY-ANN ON TELEVISION
Well, we're on television... and you're
good at it.

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Thank you.

Another little moment between them.

SIDNEY-ANN ON TELEVISION
The bookstore. Tell us about it.

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Are you planning to collect radios?

SIDNEY-ANN ON TELEVISION
Do you think I should?

FRANK ON TELEVISION
The Shop Around the Corner is a true New
York treasure.

SIDNEY-ANN ON TELEVISION
As are you. I'd love to have you back.

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Any time. Are we done?

SIDNEY-ANN ON TELEVISION
Not at all.

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Because I just want to say that the only
show I do watch is yours.

KATHLEEN
(appalled)
Omigod.

FRANK
Hey, I was just being polite. Okay, I
admit, I slobbered all over her.

The show continues.

[jonpiper]

No. The above is not correct.

Jonn, on the monitor is most definitely *not* voice over. The voice on the monitor is *part of the scene* -- that is, it is part of the reality of the scene, part of the universe of the scene.

I REMEMBER MAMA opens with the narrator, who is also a character in the story, talking about the various characters -- in VOICE OVER, and we, the audience hear her voice, while we see the various characters going about their lives.

But they -- the characters, don't hear her. That voice, is not a part of the "universe" of those scenes. It is separate. The characters who inhabit that world -- that "dramatic reality" -- are completely unaware of that voice. They don't hear it, don't know it exists. Only we, the audience, hear it.

That's VOICE OVER.

The only time that convention is violated is in the context of a comedy that breaks the "fourth wall" -- where a character might abruptly talk to the narrator or the narrator talk to a character for comedic effect.

Likewise, there's no reason for you ever to describe John as Off Screen.

You open with him in the room with the monitor. Then, suddenly, he's O.S.

Where did he go? As far as I can tell, he's still in the same chair, watching the same monitor.

If this is simply your way of saying that the shot should be on the monitor rather than on John -- this is not only micromanaging the coverage of a scene in a way that is unnecessary, it's a very confusing and awkward way of doing it.

In the scene as you've written it above, there is no reason at all to have any O.S. and no reason to have any V.O. at all.

He's watching himself on the monitor. When he speaks on the monitor, it should be JOHN ON THE MONITOR. When it's just John in the room, it's just JOHN.

Simple. Clear. Obvious.

The people who are reading these things are going to be reading fast. Your script may be the tenth they've read that day. Don't confuse them.

NMS

NMS, I posted a re-wite while you were posting the above. I do show that John is off screen for his last dialogue segment.

As far as the dialogue from the monitor, I've could swear I've read scripts that used V.O. Let's say many people speak on the monitor. Would you say CHARACTER 1 ON THE MOITOR, etc.? Or CHARACTER 1 (V.O.)?
It seems that this is a perfect place for V.O., just as for a voice on the phone? Not confusing.

But, I'm still learning, and don't want to put out misinformation.:)

[jonpiper]

INT. KATHLEEN'S BEDROOM - NIGHT

As she and Frank watch the television show.

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Technologically speaking, the world's
out of hand. Take the VCR. The whole
idea of a VCR is that it makes it possible
for you to tape what's on television
while you're out of the house. But the
whole point of being out of the house is
so you can miss what's on television.
Radio. Now there's a medium I can get
behind.

SIDNEY-ANN ON TELEVISION
Well, we're on television... and you're
good at it.

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Thank you.

Another little moment between them.

SIDNEY-ANN ON TELEVISION
The bookstore. Tell us about it.

. . .

FRANK ON TELEVISION
Because I just want to say that the only
show I do watch is yours.

KATHLEEN
(appalled)
Omigod.

FRANK
Hey, I was just being polite. Okay, I
admit, I slobbered all over her.

The show continues.

Well, a produced script can't be wrong! Hope, I haven't confused anyone.
. . . unless I can find a script that uses V.O. in a similiar situation.:)

[nmstevens]

NMS, I posted a re-wite while you were posting the above. I do show that John is off screen for his last dialogue segment.

As far as the dialogue from the monitor, I've could swear I've read scripts that used V.O. Let's say many people speak on the monitor. Would you say CHARACTER 1 ON THE MOITOR, etc.? Or CHARACTER 1 (V.O.)?
It seems that this is a perfect place for V.O., just as for a voice on the phone? Not confusing.

But, I'm still learning, and don't want to put out misinformation.:)

Just to make it clear -- my opinion about V.O. stands -- only use it when the voice in question is "external" to the action in the scene -- unheard by the participants.

As for phone conversations, in older scripts they used to use (filtered) in paretheticals, but nobody does that any more. I think that they easiest thing to do, and the clearest is simply, JOHN ON PHONE.

And as you see in the reference that somebody posted -- I'd do exactly what you indicated:

CHARACTER 1 ON MONITOR

Although, I'd probably just make it, CHARACTER 1 ON TV

And I wouldn't have used O.S. even in the revised example that you gave -- because unless I'm reading it wrong, they haven't actually gone anywhere. That is, you're attempting to edit the scene on the page through the use of O.S. and that's not considered appropriate.

When they shoot the scene, and get in the cutting room, somebody is ultimately going to decide when John is on screen and when the monitor is on screen. If somebody hasn't yet made an entrance, you can do this.

For instance, if you open on the monitor, and you haven't yet introduced John, you might start with "Bullsh-t" as an "O.S." line -- and then move back to reveal John, sitting watching himself on the monitor.

But once you've revealed him -- he's there. And if he's already been established as present in the space, the fact that you've focused the audience's attention on something within the space -- like the monitor -- that doesn't put something or someone else within that same space, like John, "off camera."

For your purposes, as a writer, he's still there.

NMS

[jonpiper]

NMS, great insights and explanations. Thanks. Nothing like using real scenes to illustrate how and why to use screenwriting conventions.

[jonpiper]

NMS, just to reinforce your position, this scene from Network is written exactly as you've suggested. It works without O.S. and V.O. -- except for one case where V.O. is needed in one of the monitor shots because the announcer in that shot is not at the location of the monitor scene. And there is no camera direction!


12. INT. CONTROL ROOM - 4th FLOOR



The clock wall reads: 6:30. Typical control room. A

room-length double bank of television monitors including

two color monitor screens, the show monitor and the

pre-set monitor. Before this array of TV screens sits

the DIRECTOR, flanked on his left by the PRODUCTION

ASSISTANT (GIRL) who stop-watches the show, and on his

right by the TECHNICAL DIRECTOR who operates a special

board of buttons and knobs. (On the TECHNICAL

DIRECTOR's right sits the LIGHTING DIRECTOR). At the

moment, the show monitor has the network's Washington

correspondent, JACK SNOWDEN, doing a follow-up on the

attempted assassination of President Ford in San

Francisco --



SNOWDEN (ON MONITOR)

-- the first attempt on President

Ford's life was eighteen days ago --

and again yesterday in San Francisco --



DIRECTOR

(murmuring into his mike)

-- Lou, kick that little thing shut

on ground level --



SNOWDEN (ON MONITOR)

-- In spite of two attempts --



The show monitor screen has switched over to show film

of President Ford arriving at the San Francisco airport --



SNOWDEN (V.O. ON MONITOR)

-- Mr. Ford says he will not become --



PRODUCTION ASSISTANT

(murmurs)

-- forty seconds --



DIRECTOR

(murmurs into mike)

-- twenty seconds to one --



DIRECTOR

-- one --



HOWARD BEALE'S image suddenly flips on-screen --



PRODUCTION ASSISTANT

-- thirty seconds to commercial freeze --



DIRECTOR

-- head roll --



TECHNICAL DIRECTOR

-- rolling--



The DIRECTOR and TECHNICAL DIRECTOR turn in their seats

to join HARRY HUNTER and his SECRETARY in a brief

gossip --



HOWARD (ON MONITOR)

Ladies and gentlemen, I would

like at this moment to announce

that I will be retiring from

this program in two weeks' time

because of poor ratings --



The DIRECTOR has whispered something to HARRY HUNTER'S

SECRETARY which occasions sniggers from the SECRETARY

and from HARRY HUNTER. The TECHNICAL DIRECTOR stands to

get in on the joke --



ASSISTANT DIRECTOR

(to DIRECTOR)

-- what'd you say? --



HOWARD (ON MONITOR)

-- and since this show was the

only thing I had going for me

in my life, I have decided to

kill myself --



HARRY HUNTER'S SECRETARY murmurs something which causes

HARRY HUNTER to burst into laughter --



ASSISTANT DIRECTOR

(to the DIRECTOR)

-- so what'd she say? --



HOWARD (ON MONITOR)

-- I'll tell you what I'm going

to do. I'm going to blow my brains

out right on this program a week

from today --


And the scene continues . . .