View Full Version : Self-publishing: a quality issue
A couple of self-published books have just arrived here at work. I've read the first few pages of both. If I didn't know they were self-published, I'd say they were first draft pieces from a new(ish) author. The story might be great; I'm more interested in the basics of these two books. The sentence structure, grammar and spelling (in a couple of places) are extremely poor.
I don't think there's anything wrong with self-publishing, but wouldn't an author want their work to be as professional as any other title on the shelf? What's to be gained by having a book that reads as poorly as these two?
CaroGirl
09-07-2007, 06:56 PM
You're probably looking at the best those authors could do alone. Did they try to publish through traditional routes, or go directly to self-publishing?
I know that self-pubbing isn't right for me, but it's nice that it's an option for those who just want to give a few away to family and friends. On the surface, they look pretty good.
maestrowork
09-07-2007, 06:58 PM
I agree. It's not so much about self-publishing, but about getting it through proper editorial processes. It doesn't mean commercially published books don't have errors... I agree that if someone wants to self-pub, they should hire a professional editor and go through a vigorous editing process to make sure the work is polished before going to print.
Azraelsbane
09-07-2007, 07:04 PM
I have to agree with Carogirl on the quality probably being top notch for them. Also, everyone benefits from having a real editor look at their stuff, otherwise they wouldn't exist at the high end level.
When I finished my first novel, seven or so years ago, I seriously thought about self-publishing. I was scared to death of queries, my book didn't have a definitive genre, and I just wanted to see it in book format. I decided against it (though I never queried it, and likely never will). Dunno why, probably money issues. I was only 17 and about to head off to a 35k a years school, when my dad made less than that in a year, lol. I could either hand iuniverse 500 bucks, or have food for the semester.
Anyway, I've finally got a book I think is good enough to query, and I'm hoping it can land me an agent/book deal. It's a stressful process though. I belong to two fairly large writing groups in my city, and in both, vanity/self-pub is the norm. I don't think there's one person in either group that has been published the traditional way. They all seem to have gotten so worn out by years of rejection, they just did it themselves. It scares me. Maybe that's why so many people self-publish. *shrug*
PeeDee
09-07-2007, 07:09 PM
Who knows what those authors thought, too. Maybe they were less concerned about putting their best feet forward and were more interested in Being Real Published Authors with books on shelves.
Or, it might be as Caro says. You just can't tell, unfortunately.
kristie911
09-07-2007, 07:20 PM
I think in some cases authors look at their product and say, "It's perfect, I couldn't possibly make it better." and stop there. It's extremely difficult to edit your own work and for some people they just can't see their own mistakes. When they get rejected by agents or publishers, their thoughts are somewhere along the lines of, "They can't see my brillance!" And they self-publish because they know they're brillant. :)
Not saying this is what happened...but I've seen this mentality more than once. Delusions of self-granduer are never a pretty sight! :D
callalily61
09-07-2007, 07:37 PM
When I finished an early draft of the book that got me an agent, I thought it was the best it could possibly be. Then I got crits. Ouch. And I am infinitely grateful for those brutal crits.
I just reviewed an iUniverse book. Interesting storyline, likeable antihero. But the typos, the grammatical errors, the copyediting fizes that should've happened and didn't. I actually threw it across the room when I finished. When I read the first chapter of the next book in the series at the end of book 1, I emailed the author. HE has hos own promotion business--built for his own books. I strongly suggested he get a copyeditor for the rest of the series (13 projected books!). He replied with a nice pat on the head explaining that iUniverse didn't make his last set of edits and said it wasn't their fault--so he was going to AuthorHouse.
I gave up. This series is going to be several wannabes, and it's a shame. Why won't more writers go the crit-rewrite-fix-query route rather than self or vanity pub an embarassment?!
I know. It was a rhetorical question. :(
Gillhoughly
09-07-2007, 07:48 PM
Going from iUniverse to Authorhouse???
:dies laughing: :roll:
My question would be, why is your library buying and stocking self-pubbed books? My next question would be, why isn't mine one of them? My books have a certified 77% spelling accuracy and that's something you can neither fake nor buy. As for proper grammar, I leave that to the inbred masses - they can keep it!
Shane Fitzsimmons
09-07-2007, 08:19 PM
Personally, with the exception of very niche non-fiction books, I think that Self-Publication is almost always an obvious sign to a lack of professional quality in work. I realize this probably isn't a popular opinion, but quality writing gets published, eventually. There's a great many things that self-publishing fiction can suggest, and unless you're just looking for a small project to put together and hand out to your friends, I just can't take seriously people who self-publish and then consider themselves valid writers on a level above your regular old-Joe non-published writers.
Given, I know there's more than one example out there of self-published authors who wound up being quite successful as a result of their self-published work, but these are rare exceptions, like the Stephen King's and JK Rowlings of the world. More often than not, self-publishing fiction just shows a lack of quality in the writing, and a lack of integrity in the author.
aadams73
09-07-2007, 08:22 PM
Going from iUniverse to Authorhouse???
:dies laughing: :roll:
Talk about a lateral move :D
My question would be, why is your library buying and stocking self-pubbed books?
Don't ask me. I just open boxes and pull out the goodies from within.
I think in some cases authors look at their product and say, "It's perfect, I couldn't possibly make it better." and stop there. It's extremely difficult to edit your own work and for some people they just can't see their own mistakes.
The author in this case thanked his proof readers on the first page. I would have asked them to do a better job ;)
mum23
09-07-2007, 08:36 PM
A couple of self-published books have just arrived here at work. I've read the first few pages of both. If I didn't know they were self-published, I'd say they were first draft pieces from a new(ish) author. The story might be great; I'm more interested in the basics of these two books. The sentence structure, grammar and spelling (in a couple of places) are extremely poor.
I don't think there's anything wrong with self-publishing, but wouldn't an author want their work to be as professional as any other title on the shelf? What's to be gained by having a book that reads as poorly as these two?
I suppose it depends on ones desperation to have their work published.
Talk about a lateral move :D
Literally lateral - the two companies just merged.
PeeDee
09-07-2007, 08:51 PM
Authors like callalily are talking about are just role-playing being writers. Its just auctorial-masturbation. Its the desire to Be Published and to be able to Condescend. Useless. And, er, laughable, really.
Azraelsbane
09-07-2007, 09:37 PM
Going from iUniverse to Authorhouse???
:dies laughing: :roll:
At one of my writing group meetings last week, two people got into a discussion over why one person chose Authorhouse instead of iuniverse. Not joking. I didn't even know her book was self-pubbed till they brought up iuniverse. I'm basically an idiot when it comes to recognizing self-publishing houses.
JoNightshade
09-07-2007, 10:08 PM
I think the process of actually attempting to get published by a mainstream house is the "refining fire" for any book, as it were. If I wasn't seriously attempting to get my work past an agent's reader, an agent, an editor, and then the general public, my book would never be as good as it is. I would have finished the first draft, read it over a few times for errors and typos, and then said, "Hey! It's done! I love it!"
I think that's the problem with self publishing. It's too easy. It allows you to convince yourself that you've done the best that you can (by yourself) and that this is the way for you. I'm sure there are a ton of self-published books out there that could have been pubbed through mainstream publishing companies if the author had just been willing to be a little more humble and go through the necessary revisions. It's too bad so many of them aren't willing to do this.
Andre_Laurent
09-07-2007, 10:16 PM
I suppose it depends on ones desperation to have their work published.
I can wait till hell freezes solid, if necessary. Because that's what will happen before I go that route.
PeeDee
09-07-2007, 10:38 PM
I think that's the problem with self publishing. It's too easy. It allows you to convince yourself that you've done the best that you can (by yourself) and that this is the way for you. I'm sure there are a ton of self-published books out there that could have been pubbed through mainstream publishing companies if the author had just been willing to be a little more humble and go through the necessary revisions. It's too bad so many of them aren't willing to do this.
Absolutely right on this. Heck, with services like Lulu, I can go from finishing my novel in first draft to selling it in about half an hour, without ever losing that "Wow, it's finished and it's brilliant!" buzz that I should really lose before getting into offering it to the world.
A couple of self-published books have just arrived here at work. I've read the first few pages of both. If I didn't know they were self-published, I'd say they were first draft pieces from a new(ish) author. The story might be great; I'm more interested in the basics of these two books. The sentence structure, grammar and spelling (in a couple of places) are extremely poor.
I don't think there's anything wrong with self-publishing, but wouldn't an author want their work to be as professional as any other title on the shelf? What's to be gained by having a book that reads as poorly as these two?
I, erm, recently saw here on AW why self-pubbing remains a popular choice. I saw someone post a piece for crits, something that had potential but also had some fairly big problems, too, and get extremely defensive when great crits were offered. Next thing, this author announces a contract with, basically, a vanity house. The saddest part was, this person was basically announcing it in such a way as to say, "See? I didn't need to improve at all!" My mouse hovered over the Reply button for just a moment, and then it hit me: this is who the self-pubbing industry was made for. Nothing to say. This same person just barely got free of one big scam-house to sign up with another.
No matter how great your potential talent, if you are more interested in having your ego stroked than in hearing honest feedback & improving your craft, then you will always remain self-deluded and wonder why your brilliance goes unrecognized.
It is a big shame, but in a way, not really. Every person who remains self-deluded and refuses to perfect their craft is one more person who won't be competing with me on the best-seller lists. :tongue Bully for them, and bully for me! Go for it! Self-pub your little heart out. I think that's awesome! As for me, I'll keep practicing until I'm good enough for the big leagues. And bring on the crits!
wee
maestrowork
09-07-2007, 10:45 PM
You're all just jealous of my genius™.
Azraelsbane
09-07-2007, 10:48 PM
I, erm, recently saw here on AW why self-pubbing remains a popular choice. I saw someone post a piece for crits, something that had potential but also had some fairly big problems, too, and get extremely defensive when great crits were offered. Next thing, this author announces a contract with, basically, a vanity house.
This got me thinkin'. There is this contest in my area. Some writers' conference novel contest. And if you win, you get a contract with a publisher. It sounded like a sweet deal, and I was going to submit my novel to it and hope for the best, but then I went and checked out the publishing house, and turns out it's a vanity press. I had no idea what that meant, so I came here and checked it out. Wow. Made me think twice about entering the contest. From what I got out of most threads is that those places are worse than normal self publishing, because they actually hold the rights to your book.
Did I get the right idea about them? Entering would have been a bad idea, right? Not that I would have won, but still.. Just sayin'.
callalily61
09-07-2007, 10:59 PM
From what I got out of most threads is that those places are worse than normal self publishing, because they actually hold the rights to your book.
Did I get the right idea about them? Entering would have been a bad idea, right? Not that I would have won, but still.. Just sayin'.
Azrael, pat yourself on the back for recognizing the scam and running away. The only correct choice.
dobiwon
09-07-2007, 11:00 PM
As for me, I'll keep practicing until I'm good enough for the big leagues. And bring on the crits!I think this is a good analogy. From what I've read by people who chose self-pubbing, they often believe that self-publishing is the equivalent of the minor leagues, where they can showcase their talent, and some big league scout will be impressed and snap them up. Big misconception, on both counts. Minor leagues are places to polish and refine your skills. The write-get critiques-rewrite-submit-refine... process is the real "minor league" for writers.
Gillhoughly
09-07-2007, 11:03 PM
Literally lateral - the two companies just merged.
Jesus on a moped--this just keeps getting BETTER!
You can't make this up.
:dies some more: :e2stooges
Oberon
09-07-2007, 11:08 PM
My brother self-publishes. His work is literate, grammatically correct, no typos. He does it because his work won't fit in any of the genres agents like, too small a market. He is a radical "Varmentalist" as he calls it. His non-fiction is published in several magazines, he participates in writer's conferences and groups, goes to book signings, does all the authorial things, but his fiction, which is not popular with publishers, he publishes himself and promotes himself. Not much in sales, but satisfaction for him. He says it's more fun than continual rejections. He can write what he wants. I stress, again, it is good writing, not sloppy, not schlock. He knows how to write. My whole extended family knows how to write. My sister and I are the only ones unpublished.
*sigh* Why do I feel compelled to go down this path again . . .
I genuinely like everyone who's posted on this thread and I consider ya'll my friends, so please indulge me for a moment. The elitist mentality around self-pubbing is really bugging me. I totally agree with the fact that a writer should continue to hone their product and get input from others and get professional editing and, if they're so inclined, doggedly pursue a publication deal. That's the ideal. But urinating on anything less than the ideal, especially when a vast majority of folks on AW haven't been published with a big house and of those who have, VERY few achieve a high level of notoriety, belittles us all.
I've been a paid and amateur musician my whole adult life, and I've never seen this type of elitism in the music world. Thousands of bands play local clubs and post their songs on MySpace and YouTube. Some of them suck and some of them are great, but nobody is looking down on them saying "ppfft - you didn't sign with a MAJOR label and go on an international tour, and although I haven't either I'll still show distain for your choice of artistic expression because it's not as professionally produced as a Brittney Spears album."
Art is art, whether it's music, painting, or writing. If someone's playing guitar on a street corner or painting on the sidewalk, to me, that's just as enjoyable as the "professional" expressions. And for many, many people, art is a HOBBY. Very, very few authors make anywhere close to the amount of money I make and they certainly don't have the security I have, so I'm happy to keep writing as a hobby, at least until the four kids are out of the house.
And as far as the generalized distain for self-pubbing, it's been my experience in real life that most people don't care. Every single person I've talked to about my books just says "Oh, you wrote a book? Cool." And when I explain about self-pubbing and POD, they say "Oh, cool. So I can buy it on Amazon? Sounds neat." Then lots of them buy it and most of them thoroughly enjoy it. I'm writing for a niche Fantasy market, so I find it very edifying to give people the type of novel that I've produced.
Do many self-pubbed books, like many self-promoted bands suck? Sure. Are they more prone to have more errors and are they generally less polished? Sure. Do many profesionally-pubbed books, like many profesionally-promoted bands suck while containing fewer errors and wider promotion? Sure. But it's narrow minded to belittle and dismiss the self-pubbed out of hand. I daresay it's akin to judging a book by its cover.
And since that's the most clever thing I could think of I'll stop there. End of rant and thank you for listening. I still love you all. Now buy my books.
callalily61
09-07-2007, 11:41 PM
:e2flowers [for III]
Like I said privately, nothing I said was aimed at you. I was banging my head against the wall for this sceanrio:
1. Writer self-pubs with iUniverse
2. The Lily reads about this book and requests a copy (writer had to send it; I gather iUniverse doesn't provide those to reviewers)
3. Book is riddled with typos, grammatical errors, spellcheck-type errors (baldhead for bald head, a nortorious spellcheck glitch), copyediting errors (calling one charater by another's name, for example)
4. The Lily contacts writer about the advisability of hiring a professional for his next book (and no, I did NOT mention myself!)
5. Writer blames iUniverse, says he's going to AuthorHouse, thanks me for my time. IOW, ignores everything I said.
:Headbang:
This is what gives self/vanity pubbing a bad name. If mroe writers were like you, III, there'd be hope.
That's why I love, love, loves me the Lily :Hug2:
Azraelsbane
09-07-2007, 11:50 PM
I, too, am sorry if I said anything that offended you. I didn't mean to be rude. :e2bummed:
Now where's my hug?! :tongue
The elitist mentality around self-pubbing is really bugging me. I totally agree with the fact that a writer should continue to hone their product and get input from others and get professional editing and, if they're so inclined, doggedly pursue a publication deal. That's the ideal. But urinating on anything less than the ideal, especially when a vast majority of folks on AW haven't been published with a big house and of those who have, VERY few achieve a high level of notoriety, belittles us all.
III, I won't argue with you that there is a place for the self-pubbing besides just writers who can't write. I have considered using lulu or someone for the manuscript of a book my aunt wrote. It is unlikely to be publishable because she is deceased & she left no clear instructions for her creative works, and her direct heirs are all dead. But there are still some family members around who would *love* to see this book in a printed form, even though it is probably not marketable & likely no one would ever care except her family. I could have 10 copies of this printed & give them to the family members who would care.
I just think self-pubbing is very sad for those who have potential & instead of seeking that higher potential, let scam artists suck them into deals where their work will never improve or hardly see the light of day. Those people make me sad because they aren't writing for their own entertainment, like you are. They think they'll hit it big as soon as someone discovers them, & be able to write for a living.
You're the Robert Earl Keen of writing? That's great, and I'm glad it is working out & that you have realistic expectations. You should realize that it isn't all just elitist attitudes -- what if Stephen King had gotten sucked into a writing scam, never got realistic feedback on his writing, was never taken seriously because he was represented by AH or PA, and none of us had ever heard of him?
I would be more than willing to bet that somewhere at PA there is a truly magnificent writer (possibly many) who will never be able to give the world their brilliant works because the world will never see them, readers will never hear of them, bookstores won't stock them. And that person will never be able to quit his/her day job to devote time to writing ... and will eventually stop writing, publicly anyway, because the return on it is too much smaller than the investment.
It's just a loss for all of us, is all. If everyone looked at it the way you do, there wouldn't be entire forums dedicated to it.
wee
:Hug2: Hugs all around. Thanks for letting me vent and for the caring and insightful feedback. I feel better now. Ah luv yew gahs. :Hug2:
Plus I have Shane on "ignore" so I won't have to read what will doubtless be a scathing reply.
Azraelsbane
09-08-2007, 12:10 AM
:Hug2: Hugs all around. Thanks for letting me vent and for the caring and insightful feedback. I feel better now. Ah luv yew gahs. :Hug2:
Plus I have Shane on "ignore" so I won't have to read what will doubtless be a scathing reply.
LoL. But that's half the fun! ;)
ccarver30
09-08-2007, 12:27 AM
Speaking of ignoring, I finally got to see what it looks like today. :)
Xx|e|ph|e|me|r|al|xX
09-08-2007, 12:35 AM
For me, the appeal of being published by a real publishing entity as apposed to self-publishing is knowing someone other than myself and perhaps a few friends thought it was publishable material. On the other hand, self-pubbing offers more freedom. IE, If I'm willing to fork out the money, I could put my illustrations in it, too. And I can choose my own cover. So on and so forth.
I don't think one's altogether better than the other, but it's just a matter of what I prefer.
It is slightly annoying when those types who think they're oh-so-great go self-pubbing, and it's horrible, though. :ROFL: But plenty of horrible things get published by big companies, too. Just maybe with a basic editing job...XD
Shane Fitzsimmons
09-08-2007, 12:36 AM
No scathing reply here. Self-publishing gives an outlet to legions of unpublishable crap that is far more numerous than the quality self-publishing works. Niche non-fiction is a possible exception, but the vast majority of self-published works are pure crap, that few, if anyone would want to buy.
Now, for the non-niche markets, when we're talking about mainstream-ish fiction, as in, stuff that if wrote well would likely sell well through a major publishing house, you have to wonder the mindsets of the people who decide to self-publish rather than doing it in the time honored tradition of going through a real publishing house.
First, it's about quality control. Getting published isn't easy. Your work needs to be good enough to sell well. At the very least, an editor needs to think it's good enough. But at pretty much every major publishing house, that book has to go through a lot of people before it gets approved. Add an agent to this, and your book has simply gone through a ton of industry professionals who know what quality, salable work looks like (emphasis on the salable).
What does it say about somebody who bypasses that process? To, instead, take the easy way out and just dump some money on it and get it published that way.
Quality just isn't what something like that screams.
So it's like I said, there are definitely exceptions out there. But it's not the norm. It's not to point fingers or to say that anybody who self-publishes must be a bad writer. But statistically speaking, it's a safe bet to make.
Speaking of ignoring, I finally got to see what it looks like today. :)
Me too. It's kinda neat. It's like walking through a horse pasture where someone has gone ahead of you and picked up the horse poop. Too bad the only other person I would have ignored has already been banned or flounced, or just hasn't been around lately.
Oh AB, won't you join us?
Deirdre
09-08-2007, 01:27 AM
As for me, I'll keep practicing until I'm good enough for the big leagues. And bring on the crits!
Exactly how I feel, which is why my first sf/f sale (under my name) is to a pro market.
It's not that I have a problem with the semi-pro markets; I don't.
However, I figured that by keeping anything out of circulation in the semi-pros, I kept my options open. Thus, when I start selling to pro markets consistently, I'll know more about writing and, in theory, more about revising existing stories to get them into the best markets possible -- which may be new pro markets.
Deirdre
09-08-2007, 01:37 AM
I think this is a good analogy. From what I've read by people who chose self-pubbing, they often believe that self-publishing is the equivalent of the minor leagues, where they can showcase their talent, and some big league scout will be impressed and snap them up. Big misconception, on both counts. Minor leagues are places to polish and refine your skills. The write-get critiques-rewrite-submit-refine... process is the real "minor league" for writers.
True, but a lot of people who self-pub seem to be taken in by The Eragon Promise.
ishtar'sgate
09-08-2007, 01:57 AM
I have the novel of a friend who self-published through Trafford Publishing. I met the author on another writers forum and asked for a signed copy. The quality of the book was every bit as good as one from a traditional publishing house. The quality of the writing was also top rate. Her reasons for self-publishing were simple. She wanted absolute control over her work.
Linnea
maestrowork
09-08-2007, 02:24 AM
Self-publishing or not, I think we all should be aware of quality control. If you can't copyedit your own work (I can't -- I'm error-blind when it comes to editing my own work), do find someone who can. Never put your first, second, or even third draft out there. Polish, polish, polish.
And good luck everyone! :)
Deirdre
09-08-2007, 02:26 AM
I have the novel of a friend who self-published through Trafford Publishing. I met the author on another writers forum and asked for a signed copy. The quality of the book was every bit as good as one from a traditional publishing house. The quality of the writing was also top rate. Her reasons for self-publishing were simple. She wanted absolute control over her work.
Those are good reasons. Also, she'll make more money per copy (but perhaps less overall) than she would from a traditional publisher.
Andre_Laurent
09-08-2007, 03:31 AM
Me too. It's kinda neat. It's like walking through a horse pasture where someone has gone ahead of you and picked up the horse poop. Too bad the only other person I would have ignored has already been banned or flounced, or just hasn't been around lately.
Oh AB, won't you join us?
Road apples, my friend...they're called road apples.....or meadow muffins. :D
Azraelsbane
09-08-2007, 03:33 AM
Me too. It's kinda neat. It's like walking through a horse pasture where someone has gone ahead of you and picked up the horse poop. Too bad the only other person I would have ignored has already been banned or flounced, or just hasn't been around lately.
Oh AB, won't you join us?
Psst, III, go with Az, I tend to run in threads with AuntyBug, who we refer to as AB ;).
And I joined. No worries.
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