Rewriting as revision.

[Raphee]

I've had a few people advise me that a revision means doing a rewrite.

I've wondered about doing that, but it seems that the story is so embedded in my head that I find it difficult to do a rewrite.
Is a rewrite really the best way to approach revisions.

[Azraelsbane]

Sometimes, yes. In the past 3 weeks of hard edits I've cold slashed over 10k. I deleted two entire chapters and rewrote them as one that was 6k words less than the original combined 8k of the 2 chapters. I spent all day today rewriting the opening scene of a chapter. All day just to decide HOW to start it, where to start it, and from whose pov. I wrote the opening from 4 different viewpoints in three different dimensions... I started at 8am and hit the jackpot at midnight.

Finishing your 1st draft is just the beginning. Then comes the pain.

BTW: Always save your old drafts. Start a new document for complete rewrites. Just sayin'. ;)

[dmytryp]

I agree with Az. She's one smart ladyhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am doing a major rewrite (uhm... yes, I sometimes wrie, lol). The previous version was written before I found this place (or any other writers resourses for that matter). It was written in very distant semi-omni pov and had about 53k words. At the moment I am a little more than half way through the rewrite. I am over 50k already and the story is in real close third limited pov.
I think the extent of revisions depends on an individual case. Some have to rewrite from scratch, other need only to change some things

[sgtmrb03]

I write slowly (if I get 1000 words a day, I'm somewhat happy), but I tend to go over what I've written during the previous session and do on-the-spot revisions. So by the time I have a first draft completed, I don't have a whole lot of rewriting to do.

[Azraelsbane]

I agree with Az. She's one smart ladyhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
I am doing a major rewrite (uhm... yes, I sometimes wrie, lol). The previous version was written before I found this place (or any other writers resourses for that matter). It was written in very distant semi-omni pov and had about 53k words. At the moment I am a little more than half way through the rewrite. I am over 50k already and the story is in real close third limited pov.
I think the extent of revisions depends on an individual case. Some have to rewrite from scratch, other need only to change some things

Are you sure we're not twins? This EXACTLY what I'm going through at the moment. Turning 100k of crappy omni 3rd into character driven limited... Wow, it's been an experience.

[JoNightshade]

Here's my method so far, if it helps anything.

1) I went through and made an outline of every scene in the part I wanted to revise.
2) Then I sat down with that outline and started shifting things around. Asking myself things like, okay, I have two scenes with this person; can they be combined into one? Can I cut some of that? Etc. etc.
3) Then I made a new outline of my condensed plot.
4) I printed out the original version, the whole thing, and then I opened a blank document.
5) Using my new outline, I started from page one and began to type everything in all over again. For scenes that I'm combining, I flip through my printed pages and compare them, taking out the parts I like the best and sticking them together. I would say 80% of my text is the same, but this is really helping me clarify things in my mind.

Actually I've discovered that retyping my manuscript, even the parts that I know I'm going to keep the same, is really helpful. It makes you really slow down and look at your manuscript line by line. I've caught a bunch of typos and I've also eliminated a lot of extraneous words and phrases. Am I going to retype my entire manuscript? Eh...

We'll see how far I get before my hands fall off. :)

[Azraelsbane]

Your method includes outlines. Sometimes I have seizures just reading the word. ;) I'm not normal though, by any stretch of the imagination.

[dmytryp]

Are you sure we're not twins? This EXACTLY what I'm going through at the moment. Turning 100k of crappy omni 3rd into character driven limited... Wow, it's been an experience.

Only if my parents forgot to tell me something, lol
Well, I had more reasons for a rewrite than pov. The novel has a long history (about twenty years). It had poor (juvenile) characters, a weak plot and no subplots.

[JoNightshade]

Your method includes outlines. Sometimes I have seizures just reading the word. ;) I'm not normal though, by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes, but I only do them AFTER I have written the first draft. So it doesn't COUNT. Hmph.

[Ravenlocks]

I don't think a rewrite is the best way to approach revisions, if by rewrite you mean from page one. I mean, unless the whole thing just totally 100% sucks, in which case you don't really have much choice. But I think a normal revision will include cutting old stuff, rearranging old stuff, writing some new stuff, fixing plot problems, etc. It's not going to be a page one rewrite.

[Shane Fitzsimmons]

If you really need to rewrite the whole thing, then somewhere at the beginning you made a serious mistake. More often than not, you probably didn't use an outline. ;)

I think that most of the time people do rewrites (as in, starting the book all over again) it's usually because they're suffering from the problem most new writers do, where their writing improves drastically over the course of the novel, and by the time they get to the end they look at the beginning and feel like everything they've written was crap. The problem with this mindset is that it's a failure's cycle, and they'll repeat it again and again and again.

There are sometimes when a rewrite is truly unavoidable, but it's rare. Most of the time it could have been averted with good planning before the writer even started writing.

Also, we live in the computer age now, where anything you write can be moved around, deleted, or edited at your whim, making total rewrites even less necessary and more avoidable than ever.

So I'd say, no, revision doesn't mean rewrite, ever. Though there are some instances where it might be in your best interest. Again, nothing is set in stone.

[Esopha]

Yes, but I only do them AFTER I have written the first draft. So it doesn't COUNT. Hmph.

Um... sometimesIdothistoo.

When I needed to add scenes to LC, I wrote out all the scenes and stuck in the new ones. This was after my 2nd revision, when I realized that an antagonist would be nice to have.

Of course, this was the same night (or morning - 3 o'clock) when I decided it would be a good idea to skim some of my favorite books until I found the 'plot revelation,' when the main conflict was first discussed. Then I counted all the words on the page, multiplied them by the page number, and did ratios.

I came up with a figure of 8k - 20k words before the 'plot revelation.'

I probably shouldn't stay up that late.

[Ava Jarvis]

If you really need to rewrite the whole thing, then somewhere at the beginning you made a serious mistake. More often than not, you probably didn't use an outline. ;)

Plenty of experienced authors out there---on this board and Neil Gaiman and such like---write down longhand and then retype it all in, for the same reasons that JoNightshade does: you catch mistakes and find out where the book gets awkward. Simply moving stuff around on the computer does not get you the refresh that a retype does.

Many leave the thing in storage for a while (make sure it's backed up in as many separate places as possible; or heck, be a dinosaur and print it all out) to get proper distance, and then retype. I plan to read mine out to myself in addition to the retype. You have to approach it as a reader somehow, and retype/reading/not seeing it for a while does this.

It's not uncommon for novels to undergo extreme changes, even from people with experience, a clear grasp of organization, and writing ability. From all of the "history of my writing" books and articles that I have read from published authors, fiction and non-fiction, this appears typical.

[scarletpeaches]

Once I've finished my first drafts, I rewrite them completely...but large sections are just a matter of transcribing. The parts that are okay, I just copy. Some parts need to be rewritten completely, though. I tend to cut from conversations; I overwrite dialogue in my first drafts just to make my target word count. ;)

But on the second draft which I usually do longhand, I like to get the whole story straight in my head, hence me rewriting from page one, even though page one might be just fine, thank you.

Then the third draft, which isn't really a draft at all, is simply a matter of me copying the longhand back onto the computer in manuscript format, correcting typos as I go.

[lkp]

I planned very little before I wrote my novel --- I had a notion of the two big climaxes, and I knew where thebook was going to end; that's all. When it came time to revise, I did very little rewriting. Every scene stayed in, and one or two were added. My main changes were many many tweaks done here and there in an effort to try to get closer to my POV character.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I've been advised by experts both to retype and not to retype. Both sides have their points. I don't retype an entire manuscript in the name of revision. What I will do is take my document and create a backup copy. Then I start work on the original, I've got my backup for comparison but I just feel better working with the original, it feels more real to me. I slash and trash it, I call it shrediting. I don't retype because I find when I try that I focus more on the typing than the writing and it doesn't work for me.

If I need a new scene I'll either start a new doc then insert it, or just start typing. It's what works for me.

[Shane Fitzsimmons]

Plenty of experienced authors out there---on this board and Neil Gaiman and such like---write down longhand and then retype it all in, for the same reasons that JoNightshade does: you catch mistakes and find out where the book gets awkward. Simply moving stuff around on the computer does not get you the refresh that a retype does.

That sort of thing is common enough and fine, it wasn't really what I was referring to. When writing something with a pencil and then just typing in what you wrote, and switching things around and making things sound better, that's basically just an elaborate revision. When I think of a total rewrite I think more along the lines of having the novel you wrote in your head, and then trying to write out the whole novel all over again in the hopes that it'll be better because you're more experienced.

I used to do that when I was fifteen and it resulted in about seventeen rewrites and I still wasn't happy with it. I've heard a lot of similar stories from people in the past. Doing things that way is just dangerous.


Dave -- I do a similar thing, now, and I find that it's one of the best ways out there to revise.

[rooroo]

I'm actually in the midst of rewriting my WIP. The two reasons are a combo of what Shane Fitzsimmons has posted. I started my WIP four years ago. Since then, I've only worked on it in fits and starts, but I continued writing other things in the meantime. My writing has improved vastly, and the early stuff I wrote four years ago now seems amateurish to me. The main reason I stalled on my WIP is because I didn't know where to take it next--I know the ending and the major events that lead to it, but I have no idea how to weave them in. It's a fantasy that involves time-travel, magic, and war, and I haven't been able to get a handle on the mechanics of these major plot-points. What I've found upon picking the work up again is that the beginning wanders and nothing much happens. My MC is a shadow instead of a well-rounded character, and her motivations (and hence her characterization) come from the need to serve the plot, not from who she is. I don't outline, and I don't think that is my problem. My biggest problem is I never developed the MC.

The only way I can see fixing these serious flaws is to do a rewrite. I'm sure I'll end up keeping much of what I've done (I love the idea of the story, and most of the characters). Starting fresh feels right; I'm not the same writer I was four years ago. Back then, I wanted to write a rip-roaring adventure. Today I want to put my characters through a rip-roaring adventure. A subtle, but important difference that will end up shifting the entire work.

[Felicia Beasley]

I think there are two different kinds of rewrites. One is where you rewrite a chapter or a scene so it fits better in the whole scheme of the novel. The other is a complete novel rewrite, which I'm in the process of right now.

I finished the first draft of Quest a couple of years ago and it stunk. Not just the writing, but the plot was incomprehensible. And yes I used an outline, a pretty extensive one. It didn't help make the world and why things happen any better. It was also too short (50,000) and it just didn't make me feel excited. The plot was a bit boring. Three adventures go on a quest to save Death. Whoppie doo is all I felt after rereading it (more than 3 times actually)

So I butchered it, took out one or two scenes I loved (which may still never actually go into this rewritten draft), took the ideas of some of the characters, and some of the plot and completely reworked it. This time with less of an outline and more of a general direction. I know the ending and I know the big things that have to happen but how my characters get there and how they evolve as characters is part of the discovery that I am so enjoying.

Now I'm hoping not to have to rewrite my first drafts over and over again. I've learned (hopefully enough) about how to write a draft, that while not perfect in any way, is at least salvageable.

But I consider this a rewrite because it bears so little resemblance to my first draft to the point where the story is different.
I can no longer say this is about three adventurers questing to save Death. In fact when I try to limit the story to one sentence I get this: After witnessing the brutal murder of a child, Alyia Domani abandons her old life in favor of a new mission: revenge.

Bleh I suck at one sentence descriptions :P

As for the original question, rewrites are not necessary in revision, at least not a complete rewrite.

As for retypes, I do this during revision as well (with short stories) and it does me. But no two people write the exact same way and what works for some doesn't work for others. I suggest trying to find what works for you. Which will probably mean gobs of trying different things and seeing what works and doesn't.

[ORION]

Interesting...after working with my agent and my editor I have realized revisions sometimes mean creating new material, rewriting (retyping) old material or going over a section cutting and pasting. Anything goes to get the necessary changes. The first draft is just that - a draft - a start - and many times is unrecognizable from the final book. Even if you feel your first draft is of a higher quality - I guarantee you your agent and editor will have you ripping and tearing apart sections.
I am not talking about sentence structure or spelling I am talking about "Gee I love your novel and we want to pay you a gadzillion dollars for it...can you relocate it from the wilds of Montana to Manhattan and then make the protagonist a male Lawyer instead of a female cowboy and can you get a nuclear sub in there somehow?
LOL

[Raphee]

Thanks For all the wonderful replies, that have me thinking.

To clarify, I was talking about a complete novel rewrite. And the replies above demonstrate how different folks approach rewrites/revisions differently for different reasons.

I personally suffer problems while doing complete novel rewrites. The few weeks storage doesn't help me at all getting enough distance. Now a year might help.

[Felicia Beasley]

Thanks For all the wonderful replies, that have me thinking.

To clarify, I was talking about a complete novel rewrite. And the replies above demonstrate how different folks approach rewrites/revisions differently for different reasons.

I personally suffer problems while doing complete novel rewrites. The few weeks storage doesn't help me at all getting enough distance. Now a year might help.

I was going to rep this to you but then I rambled on for so long I ran out of space:

Its okay. I took two years! My best suggestion for if you feel too close to the project still is to start another one. I wrote short stories, so it doesn't have to be another novel but another novel would be awesome as well :) Plus it's possible that while working on something different, you will grow enough as a writer to be able to tackle your old project, with or without a full rewrite :D

You probably already know all this but I like to reiterate because it makes me feel smart and helpful!

[GerriB]

To me, revision is working with what's on the page. Yes, that may mean cutting sections and adding new material, but it's still working with the original text.

Rewrite is ditching the entire text and reworking the concepts and characters from page one.

I don't recommend a rewrite unless the original is virtually unsalvagable for any one of a number of reasons--serious prose issues, out of control show vs. tell, tension and conflict lacking, consistantly horrible dialogue, and/or any other massive disaster throughout the entire piece.

Most of the problems that can't be fixed in revision are skill issues rather than Story issues, so outlining, either before or after, won't necessarily be a fix.

And consider walking away from the work, too. Sometimes, they have to be chalked up to learning experience and stashed in the drawer under the bed or in the closet. Other times, the Story is too flawed to do anything with, no matter how hard you try.

[RG570]

Extensive revisions are fine, but if I had to scrap it and rewrite from square one, I'd just move on to a better story. It seems like a waste of time to me; if something is that bad, the flaws are probably too deep.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I rewrote the first three or four chapters of my fantasy novel from memory. I originally started a very long time ago (about 20 years ago now) and long since lost the HD my first draft was stored on and all the printouts.

[Manat]

I tend to spend a lot of time on my first draft getting things right as I go. I can easily spend an hour on one paragraph. By the time I'm finished it's a huge relief and the revisions seem like fun. The story is already there and I feel like I'm just tweaking and polishing at that point, all the heavy lifting's finished and I can just enjoy.

I did one last November for NANOWRIMO and that was a new experience. At 50,000 words in 30 days I just had to fly and what came out is rough first draft. Can't say which works better as I had to put that one away to finish another project, but I did take a look at it recently and went Hunh? Where the Hell was I going with that? It's workable though. I'm actually timing both to see which one is the quickest to completion.

[Raphee]

I was going to rep this to you but then I rambled on for so long I ran out of space:

Its okay. I took two years! My best suggestion for if you feel too close to the project still is to start another one. I wrote short stories, so it doesn't have to be another novel but another novel would be awesome as well :) Plus it's possible that while working on something different, you will grow enough as a writer to be able to tackle your old project, with or without a full rewrite :D

You probably already know all this but I like to reiterate because it makes me feel smart and helpful!

But I already know you are smart and helpful.;)

[Raphee]

To me, revision is working with what's on the page. Yes, that may mean cutting sections and adding new material, but it's still working with the original text.

Rewrite is ditching the entire text and reworking the concepts and characters from page one.

I don't recommend a rewrite unless the original is virtually unsalvagable for any one of a number of reasons--serious prose issues, out of control show vs. tell, tension and conflict lacking, consistantly horrible dialogue, and/or any other massive disaster throughout the entire piece.

Most of the problems that can't be fixed in revision are skill issues rather than Story issues, so outlining, either before or after, won't necessarily be a fix.

And consider walking away from the work, too. Sometimes, they have to be chalked up to learning experience and stashed in the drawer under the bed or in the closet. Other times, the Story is too flawed to do anything with, no matter how hard you try.

My problem has to do with having written the same MS in 3rd person and then in 1st person. Please know that I have the MS in both POV's finished. Now i don't know which one to polish and finish off.

And I am seriously considering walking away because of my inability to take a decision or make a judgment call on this.

That is a lesson for me: Decide your POV early on and stick to it. Or you end up confused; like I am.

[ccarver30]

Azzy is all knowing. I am going through a rewrite because I discovered my original storyline totally sucked.

[GerriB]

My problem has to do with having written the same MS in 3rd person and then in 1st person. Please know that I have the MS in both POV's finished. Now i don't know which one to polish and finish off.

And I am seriously considering walking away because of my inability to take a decision or make a judgment call on this.

That is a lesson for me: Decide your POV early on and stick to it. Or you end up confused; like I am.

Yes, that could be a problem. :) And I see why you're struggling. I guess my question would be are both of them from the same MC's PoV? Because if there's one MC, then what I recommend is some help from an honest critiquer. Give them the same chapter in both PoV's and ask them which one they respond to the best. That way, you'll have some sort of guide to which choice will work the best overall.

Now, if there are multiple PoVs in this story, consider taking your primary MC and using the first person PoV for each one of their PoVs, and then making all the other ones third person. The emphasis on first person will help the reader stay focused on that particular character.

I think it's awesome that you took the time to write the same story twice in two different PoVs. That's an excellent writing exercise, tbh. However, you may end up chalking this one up to experience and moving on if you're too frustrated. But whether you choose to revise or put it in the closet, have someone else look at it and tell them which one has a better voice. That way, you have a guide in future choices.

Before your ultimate decision, take Holly Lisle's quiz Burn it, Bury it, Let it Live: http://hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/burnit.html

Good luck!

[Raphee]

Thanks Gerri for the help.

The 3rd person was written as omni. But I am converting it now to 3rd limited multiple POV.

The First person has two POV's a] the main character from her diary. b] A policeman who finds the diary. he tells the tale most of the time using the diary as well as his own involvement.

I did give sample chapters to an honest critiquer; I hope.;) The person was a reader and not a writer. The feedback I got was:
1] the 1st Person voice of the policeman was engaging and the reader enjoyed it. But not the diary.
2] The 3rd person moved faster.

The critiquer said that there were good and bad points to both. The voice in case of first person.
The prose in case of 3rd.

I have taken the Holy Lisle test. I am on the edge having scored 40points on that.

For the time being I am sticking to 3rd and getting rid of most omni. Some will remain by choice. Also I am inserting passages from 1st person that I liked. Once I am done I shall go for a revision.

If i get confused again; I still have the completed first person. I am determined to send this out. And if I get rejected , so be it. But i need to learn about querying and agents also.

This has been an excellent writing exercise. Though the hundreds of hours that have gone into it have sapped me totally. Also I did take on two difficult formats; omni and 1st person multiple POV. That in itself has taught me a lot. though I wonder if one day this shall pay off.

Your advice had been awesome. many thanks again.

[Azraelsbane]

Azzy is all knowing. I am going through a rewrite because I discovered my original storyline totally sucked.

I can't believe I missed this post yesterday. LoL. :) You totally get a suck up rep point.

Sorry to hear about your storyline though :( I feel ya. Sometimes I wonder about my stuff too. Granite Windstarr is a fun read, but I think I forgot to put a plot in there... My char just thought her life story was interesting enough for an 80k piece, so there it is. Typical Morghan. ;)

[victoria.goddard]

I think I've done both rewrites and revisions with my story. I started off with it in 1st person POV, then realised, after about eight months letting it sit, that it would probably work better in 3rd. Part way through that revision (it's in very tight 3rd, so it was more of a revision than a rewrite at that point) I realised that what I'd originally thought was the climax actually happened in the middle of the book and the real climax was something else entirely. At that point it became a rewrite proper. I think I kept one chapter--the original chapter one, which is now chapter two. Everything else was changed, by far for the better. And now it's done and about to be submitted, as soon as I write the synopsis.

[DragonHeart]

I'm only on the first draft of my WIP but I can already see spots where complete rewriting will be necessary. This is from the fact that TDS started out as a short story but it's quickly becoming complicated and going much further than originally intended. The spot where I began is actually about two months after the story begins, besides the first event (thirty years previous) in the long chain that leads up to it.

If I were to start rewriting now, it would probably be about 10,000 words to reach the same point in the story that I'm currently at, as I'm also underwriting heavily in the interest of getting the core plot on the page. I'll work out the rest afterwards.

In other words, it's entirely situational. I doubt I'll be having this issue with Red Phalanx because it's intended to be a novel from the start. If I'd known TDS wanted to be a novel I would have at least outlined the initial plot so I knew where I'd be going.

~DragonHeart~

[Raphee]

I think I've done both rewrites and revisions with my story. I started off with it in 1st person POV, then realised, after about eight months letting it sit, that it would probably work better in 3rd.
Victoria,

May I ask what your decision to change the POV was based on. Also what genre is your WIP in?

[VonShneer]

In my deeply humble opinion, (which I take as the definitive answer to the meaning of life) it all rests on your shoulders. (Remember this amazing advice reigns supreme) I've revised both ways and they both worked differently. I somewhat found both annoying in their own rights, possibly without rewriting more so. The problem I find with rewriting is fear can get in the way. The problem with any revision is laziness will get in the way. Either way you gotta kick those to the curb and do what you gotta do. (How about advice without actually giving it?)

[Writer14]

At this very moment, I've realized that I too am rewritting as revision. Because, my WiP was originally an extremely long handwritten piece. So...now i'm typing it up and while I type, I make edits and add in much needed scenes that I'd left out.

[glassquill]

I think rewriting is inevitable. It's more than likely that the polished product will be different from the original first draft.

[Arkie]

I write a lot of revisions, a minimum of ten and in some cases fifteen. So I've called a time out, and have asked myself: Do I really know what good writing is? Will I actually know it, when I see it? Does my beta readers actually know what good writing is? Am I doomed to revise to the grave?

Psychologically, I know I'm swayed by reading on boards such as this one and the "how to" books about eliminating excess adverbs, adjectives, "had" and "was," no prepositions at sentence end, and all the rest. I've thought perhaps my swaying is caused by, again, not knowing good writing, when I see it. That is subconciously equating "good writing" with writing technically correct re: punctuation and grammar.

I have also discovered through voluminous reading that what interest me as a reader has nothing to do with grammar and punctuation. Case in point: I have read most of Tony Hillerman's Navajo mystery series novels, and have enjoyed each. Hillerman sometimes goes away from the Navajo series, and when he does, I can't get through the book. From a pure technical standpoint, Hillerman is lacking. I have been made aware of that by an earlier reader at my public library who has read his novels and has taken a pencil and circled all the punctuation errors, misspellings, wrong attributes in dialogue, and so on. I don't know if Hillerman is doing his own editing, but if not, his publishing house editors seems to have fallen down on the job. An interesting point to this observation: if the previous reader had not defaced the books by circling the errors, I doubt I would have noticed.

The same thing applies to James Lee Burke and his Southwestern Louisiana Cajun/Robichaux series. I love everything Burke writes as long as he doesn't stray from SW Louisiana. When he moves to Montana, as he did in one novel, I didn't like the book. So I've come to realize that it is character and setting that draws me in and keeps me reading.

So is good fiction writing, as simple as making the reader fall in love with the character(s)? John Grisham said as much in a Time Magazine interview a couple of years ago. He said that the reader must fall in love with the main character on the first page.

Editing: I've come to realize I don't even edit properly. I shotgun it. Try to do too much at one time. Example: Why on the first edit should a writer worry about punctuation, if on subsequent edits sentences will be revised or eliminated? I've learned that one of the last edit actions is checking punctuation--and spelling.

The first time-saving action I've learned in an edit is to check for content and style and flag with blue (or red) pen minor problems for the next reading. I've often bogged myself down with minor corrections, when I should have been looking for flaws in organization and logic on the first edit.

After I get the organization and logic worked out, I've learned I can look at qualifiers, split infinitives, adverbs, adjectives, prepositional phrases, and so on, but not altogether. It is less mind boggling to concentrate on one thing at a time. That is: concentrate on one tree at a time rather than the whole forest. One of these days, I may come to understand good writing when I see it. I'd love to cut my edits from fifteen to ten.

[Raphee]

Arkie,

Interesting response. Great writing is when a story just begs your attention; when you cannot pull a novel down; when the characters and the plot are fascinating. Then I don't care a fig about grammar and all the rules, that we are told to respect as writers.

Problem is when we write, we take those rules as having been scripted by God. They haven't and great writers break them to get a great story.
Read 'My name is Red' , 'The reluctant Fundamentalist', or some of the books by Gabriel Garcia and see how many rules get broken. The end result: good novels that are bestsellers.

[GerriB]

Problem is when we write, we take those rules as having been scripted by God. They haven't and great writers break them to get a great story. Read 'My name is Red' , 'The reluctant Fundamentalist', or some of the books by Gabriel Garcia and see how many rules get broken. The end result: good novels that are bestsellers.

My question would be this: how do you know these writers didn't learn the rules in the first place to know how they could be broken to best effect? Picasso certainly broke rules, but his earliest works were about learning the rules. I taught college English composition for 8 years, and I had to keep telling my students that they needed to know the rules to know how to best break them, and that readers could tell the difference, for example, in deliberate sentence fragments and poor grammar sentence fragments.

So when I read statements like the above quote, I kinda cringe because they so often don't come with the appropriate caveat: learn the rules before you break them. That way, you can break them in positive ways, not ways that just make your writing look untrained. Takes a lot of reading and a lot of writing to figure out those techniques. Once writers do, the works usually transcend the rules instead of breaking them.

Good luck!

[JEMcGee]

My novel was waaay too long - had a lot of subplots and backstory within it and several themes. But I liked all of it - loved it so much I didn't know what to do.

Well, I was nearly done writing (2 more chapters to go) and I was forced to take a 3 month break. During that time I thought about the novel and read what I could for further research and played a 6 word game where I summarized the story into 6 words. (THAT WAS HARD!)

What it did was help me to focus on the story I was really trying to tell without all the characters and themes blinding me.

Rather than sit down and write the last two chapters, I decided to print it out and read through it - marking up what was in my main focus plot and 'X-ing' through what was extra and not needed. It was SO much easier to edit now that I had a focus. (and watching the 'deleted scenes' features on DVD's with the directors explanation helped me to emotionally let go of scenes I loved for the sake of the story)

I also know now where I need to build in other scenes that help to clarify my main story.

Once I'm done I plan to save an entire full copy of the first draft and then edit within the documents I've already typed up.

[lkp]

Arkie,

Problem is when we write, we take those rules as having been scripted by God. They haven't and great writers break them to get a great story.
Read 'My name is Red' , 'The reluctant Fundamentalist', or some of the books by Gabriel Garcia and see how many rules get broken. The end result: good novels that are bestsellers.

These are rather poor examples, because with the exception of The Reluctant Fundamentalist, they are novels first written in a language other than English first. Translators often need to be creative with language to convey the feel of a foreign novel in English.

[Raphee]

That way, you can break them in positive ways, not ways that just make your writing look untrained. Takes a lot of reading and a lot of writing to figure out those techniques. Once writers do, the works usually transcend the rules instead of breaking them.

Good luck!
Gerri,

Agreed. you do need to learn the rules before you break them. I was referring to the fact when we adapt rules as a strait jacket.

[lfraser]

I already know that my WIP will need major revisions once I'm done with the first draft. I can see mistakes in pacing and plotting, scenes that don't move the plot forward, dialogue that drags, and a host of other problems. It's going to be a long process. But I think it will be valuable, since this is, to all intents and purposes, a learning exercise.

One thing I already know -- I would not choose to tell this story in quite the same way were I to start it again. In knowing that, and understanding why that is the case, I may find the next project more enjoyable -- or at least less frustrating.

[sneakers145]

I discovered that my first novel (under the bed) isn't fixable. I know it too intimately and can't rewrite it. So, I decided to take the themes that it explored and transpose them to a whole new set of characters in a new setting. What remains to be seen is if it will work or not.

I do love the setting of novel #1, but I might have to use it in a totally different novel later.