overwhelmed and lacking solutions

[Jay-rod]

First off, hello, I'm new to these boards and seeking some assistance, while possibly sharing some ideas and philosophies of my own in my writing. To start off, I'm a high school senior who's currently sitting on a 400 page first draft of a science fiction novel of mine, and I've got 60 pages left of editing until my second draft is complete. I've based my writing formula heavily off of Stephen King's memoir to the craft. I'm unsure if this is something that is frowned upon or not, but his advice on the topic has served me well. As a writer, I want to construct a world and story that if I saw this book on the shelf, I'd flip out and purchase it instantly. I'm a huge fan of epic fantasy and science fiction, regardless of its form of media. Be it movies, novels, manga/graphic novels, video games, whatever, I don't discriminate by origin because in the end its the story I'm interested in. From my own personal proofreading, I believe I've captured this well. I'm preparing for some close friends who share similar fiction interests to me to take a look at my novel, give their opinions and help me catch some minor editing issues (like form when you mean from, I hate that one >.<), critique it once more and its ready for the press...at least I hope. It would be nice if I could get it finished in time for my application to Virginia Tech's (I'm actually interested in the field of computer science, but I enjoy writing fiction) early admission, but that's probably a pipe dream. xD

Personally, while I like my story a lot, I realize the market is probably over saturated with fantasy and science fiction, and considering my position as a simple high school student bogged down with AP classes, I have no idea where to start. From what I've researched my first move should be finding an agent, and that there are several directories aimed at us writers that can help me with this. Other than this, I'm quite lost on how this whole publishing thing usually works.

Will agents or publishers start off with low hopes of my submissions because I've yet to graduate from high school? What about the genre? Is the fact my current work (a trilogy, fully planned out) science fiction further hinder my efforts at finding a publisher? Is there anything else important I should know?

And least importantly, will this effort eventually pay off with some pocket change? :P While I had the novel planned out for quite a while now, I seriously set to work on it this summer with three thoughts in mind. A) It was fun, and I always wanted to share this tale of mine with an audience. B) I figured now would be a better time than ever to get it constructed. Something tells me 'Published Fiction Author' would look nice on a college resume. C) I wanted to experiment with my ability to construct a world, characters and orchestrate their story in an entertaining manner. It wasn't until I finished my first draft the reality hit me that publishing meant business. I'm just slightly curious on this field.

Thanks for the advice in advance, and I'm looking forward to sharing and learning with this community!

[Shady Lane]

My best friend calls himself A-rod, so your username makes me giggle. :)

Welcome to AW. I'm a high school junior, and congratulations--so far, you're doing a great job of disproving the theory that teenagers are incompetent writers and--possibly worse--incompetent businessmen.

I personally love On Writing, and think it's a great source, but make sure you're not trying to craft a Stephen King clone, okay? This is purely hypothetical advice, because you really do sound like you know what you're doing.

Okay. So. Get that 2nd draft finished, and get ye off to some beta readers. Friends are great, because you've got to be able to capture the reader, and see if you can get a writer beta as well. There's a board here just for finding one.

Once they've critted, do another edit, and try to cut. You don't mention what font you're using or what your wordcount is, but 400 might be kind of chunky. Once you've got the story as nice and tight as you can get it, you're ready to query agents. Find some that represent sci-fi, craft a good letter (we can help you with that here) and get to submitting. And while you're waiting for the responses to pour in, start writing the next one.

Some agents like to work with young writers, some don't. I include my age (sixteen) in about half my queries, depending on how I'm feeling that day/about the agent. My responses to both have been similar--I got full and partial requests from several agents before I started putting in my age, and I received a partial request on Friday from an agent who knew my name exactly--which I hope will mean she thinks it's cute that I covered her submission package in 34 cent stamps.

I'm definitely not an expert on trilogies, so I'll leave that one to someone else. Hope I've helped, and good luck to ya. Let me know if you have any questions.

And if you write YA, definitely check out the YA boards. Or check it out anyway because you're in high school and that's like a free ticket. That's where the cool kids hang out.

[Esopha]

To start off, I'm a high school senior who's currently sitting on a 400 page first draft of a science fiction novel of mine, and I've got 60 pages left of editing until my second draft is complete.

Hi! I'm a high school junior, about 30k into the second revision and 25k into the first draft of two separate works. Welcome to AW! :)

From my own personal proofreading, I believe I've captured this well. I'm preparing for some close friends who share similar fiction interests to me to take a look at my novel, give their opinions and help me catch some minor editing issues (like form when you mean from, I hate that one >.<), critique it once more and its ready for the press...at least I hope.

I think you mean ready to query. Presses =/= Publishers... but more on this later.

From what I've researched my first move should be finding an agent, and that there are several directories aimed at us writers that can help me with this. Other than this, I'm quite lost on how this whole publishing thing usually works.

I have some reading for you!

http://www.misssnark.com/
http://www.pubrants.blogspot.com
http://nathanbransford.blogspot.com/
http://accrispin.blogspot.com/

Also, check out the Bewares and Background Check area of this forum. There's a whole thread dedicated to explaining how real publishing works.

Will agents or publishers start off with low hopes of my submissions because I've yet to graduate from high school? What about the genre? Is the fact my current work (a trilogy, fully planned out) science fiction further hinder my efforts at finding a publisher? Is there anything else important I should know?

The writing is everything. However, make sure that each book stands alone. Series with big, gaping holes at the end make people run away to find a dark corner to cry in.

And least importantly, will this effort eventually pay off with some pocket change?

Maybe. Probably not. Shady's published. It's her third (?) book, though. First books are usually poop. If you don't think your book is poop, then you'll need to work on the second edit, get the WIP off to beta readers (like Shady said) and write and read. A lot.

If you want, take a look at our Share Your Work forum to get some feedback from the wonderful people here. (They won't play nice because of your age, either.)

Definitely come hang out with us YA people. Everybody's welcome, even if you don't write YA.

[Jamesaritchie]

The only way an agent or editor will know how old you have, or what degrees you have or have not, is if you tell them. For all they know, you're forty years old and have more degrees than a thermometer.

So don't tell them otherwise.

[Azraelsbane]

As one of the SF&F critters that will definitely not play nice with you because of your age, I'd also like to suggest you post a bit in SYW. Especially if it's your first novel.

It might be spectacular, but getting some feedback will let you know how great it really is. It will also help you tighten things before sending it off.

SYW crits are the best tools, ever. You just have to realize you can't take everything to heart, and you can't do everything suggested.

Good luck! And grats on the book. It's a great feeling to finish a novel! :)

[Jay-rod]

TLSIT (Too long so I truncated :P)

Oooooh, I'm glad to see another youngin' trolling around these forums. Thanks for the initial advice - far as Stephen King clone goes, I can't say myself if it would be perceived as one. I'd give my plot synopsis, but I'm exceptionally lazy, and haven't made one yet! I fancy my plot as a salute to contemporary science fiction and fantasy in all the above mediums I listed. For example, my story includes vampires, and I portray them similarly to Hirano does in Hellsing, with lots of flowing black auras and fun stuff. My own little universe is unique in its own, but I also fancy the idea of someone noticing where X fictional creature of mine was influenced by, not out of originality or an attempt at cloning something, but as a tribute to what I myself was influenced by.

Far as my font, 12 point book antiqua with 1.5 margins all the way around. Before I started I was unsure how to set these things, and with a little research found an article on it which suggested the above. It might not be what all publishers want, but I can change that as needed with minimal effort. Trust me, it was chunky at the 480's, and I cut like 130 of that out, but I also found the need to revise some parts to the point of adding new chapters.

Overall I think its a solid read as far as the first installment of my series goes. First installments are rarely the most memorable or best done, and I treat mine as an introduction to the world my characters live in as their antagonist slowly reveals itself over the course of the story. I'm 100% confident the second installment will be where it shines, followed with an equally exciting conclusion. I try to keep the action fast coming.

I'll stick my head in the YA later, but I've got some AP Gov + Psych to study, not to mention go over another twenty pages for today's revisions. Oh, the joys of writing in the summer with no time restraints. I miss it xO

[Shady Lane]

Maybe. Probably not. Shady's published. It's her third (?) book, though. First books are usually poop. If you don't think your book is poop, then you'll need to work on the second edit, get the WIP off to beta readers (like Shady said) and write and read. A lot.

Confirmed.

ETA: Standard format is Courier new, 12 point, 1'' all around. You'll probably go insane less rapidly if you think of it in terms of word count--so hit that button and find out what we're working with.

[Esopha]

Confirmed.

ETA: Standard format is Courier new, 12 point, 1'' all around. You'll probably go insane less rapidly if you think of it in terms of word count--so hit that button and find out what we're working with.

Excellent. I was right. :D

Ditto on the word count.

And stop talking about homework. It makes us procrastinators feel bad.

[Jay-rod]

Wow, I'm surprised with the overwhelming amount of feedback for a thirty minute absence. This place moves faster than /b/ on Caturday.

Thanks for the pointers, and far as wanting editors to go light on me because of my age, that isn't what I meant. To be honest, I don't view my work as that spectacular (however I do joke about it being the greatest literary achievement of the 21st century ;) ), but its a fun, non-complicated read that I don't think will leave the reader disappointed. My goal with the first novel is to leave them feeling like "Wow, that's a big twist and explains a lot. I want to know what happens next!"

[Jay-rod]

Confirmed.

ETA: Standard format is Courier new, 12 point, 1'' all around. You'll probably go insane less rapidly if you think of it in terms of word count--so hit that button and find out what we're working with.


I'll be sure to make those corrections then. Word count is hovering at 152k at the moment, and I'm probably going to cut another 2-3k out by the end.

EDIT - its now 359 pages total. The font is a lot bigger than my old one is, and probably completely fragged some of my page set ups. I'm going to have to go back through this now xD

[Jay-rod]

Excellent. I was right. :D

Ditto on the word count.

And stop talking about homework. It makes us procrastinators feel bad.


That explains your 25k and 30k, I was thinking 'Jesus Christ that's like over nine thousand!'

[JoNightshade]

Overall I think its a solid read as far as the first installment of my series goes. First installments are rarely the most memorable or best done, and I treat mine as an introduction to the world my characters live in as their antagonist slowly reveals itself over the course of the story. I'm 100% confident the second installment will be where it shines, followed with an equally exciting conclusion. I try to keep the action fast coming.

Just so you know, this paragraph right here screams "DANGER!" to me. I have no idea if this is true or not for you, but people often write "triolgies" and then discover that their first novel is just background info for the other two.

If you first novel is not "the most memorable" and an "introduction to the world," and your second book is "where it shines"... well, that's a huge indicator to me that book #2 is your real story. Book number one just might be for YOUR benefit as a writer-- but not something that will ever be publishable.

I suggest you post your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum. There are a lot of great critiquers here who will tell you straight out whether they think you have a giant info-dump or a viable story.

[Shady Lane]

Just so you know, this paragraph right here screams "DANGER!" to me. I have no idea if this is true or not for you, but people often write "triolgies" and then discover that their first novel is just background info for the other two.

If you first novel is not "the most memorable" and an "introduction to the world," and your second book is "where it shines"... well, that's a huge indicator to me that book #2 is your real story. Book number one just might be for YOUR benefit as a writer-- but not something that will ever be publishable.

I suggest you post your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum. There are a lot of great critiquers here who will tell you straight out whether they think you have a giant info-dump or a viable story.

Chick's got a point.

[Esopha]

I'll be sure to make those corrections then. Word count is hovering at 152k at the moment, and I'm probably going to cut another 2-3k out by the end.

Ooh. It's a big book.

You're probably going to have to cut out a bunch more, as well. 100k+ novels are hard sells, even in sci-fi/fantasy, which typically have longer word counts. Sorry about the word count vs. page number mix up. I didn't mean to make you freak out.

Also, listen to Jo. She knows all. Accept it, embrace it.

[JoNightshade]

Also, listen to Jo. She knows all. Accept it, embrace it.

I do?

Wow. That's news to me.

::Wanders off to ask herself some important questions::

[Esopha]

I do?

Wow. That's news to me.

::Wanders off to ask herself some important questions::

I can revise my previous statement to:

Listen to Jo. She sort of knows some stuff.

Better?

[JoNightshade]

Ummm, now that you mention it, I kinda like the "all-knowing" thing. ;)

[Jay-rod]

Just so you know, this paragraph right here screams "DANGER!" to me. I have no idea if this is true or not for you, but people often write "triolgies" and then discover that their first novel is just background info for the other two.

If you first novel is not "the most memorable" and an "introduction to the world," and your second book is "where it shines"... well, that's a huge indicator to me that book #2 is your real story. Book number one just might be for YOUR benefit as a writer-- but not something that will ever be publishable.

I suggest you post your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum. There are a lot of great critiquers here who will tell you straight out whether they think you have a giant info-dump or a viable story.

I probably worded that wrong. The first novel is still with the story. Its not like Tolkien's Simmarlion (sp?) where I just have a huge chunk of lore on a fictional world. The comment on what one would be most memrible is just from personal experience. 'The Gunslinger' isn't the Dark Tower book that stands out the most to me, 'Wolves of the Callah' does. Many Harry Potter fans favor the third book, but you rarely here one who favors the first. My first novel is just as action packed and key to the story as the others are, its just a different focus. Hard to describe without posting some of it I guess. As the first installment in a fictional future, I have to take the liberty of setting several things up for the understanding of the reader. It doesn't distract from the main plot itself, and instead I built what I do share here and there around the plot.

I'll post some of it later, but I'm still tweeking bits here and there. Far as novel size, yeah, I know its big. Then again so is my little tale, and I'm more interested in sharing my tale than making a profit. Like I said this isn't exactly my career of choice. :D

[Esopha]

I will take your comment under advisement.

EDIT:

This is for Jo.

[Just Me 2021]

Hey there, Jay-rod.

Good for you to be writing, and even better for you to be on here getting advice. These people will steer you in the right direction.

Definitely cut, cut, cut your word count. You'll be surprised how much fluff you probably have in there. I know it feels like chopping off your own arm, but do an edit where you cut out every single unnecessary word or phrase or paragraph and see what you end up with. It'll be a tighter, more compelling read and will be much closer to an acceptable book length. Then get it to a few good beta readers.

Keep going - you're on the right track!

[Jay-rod]

Just curious around what is expected of an 'acceptable word count?' I find it quite shocking that 150k is considered a lot.

EDIT- http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1624390#post1624390 posted the first part of my first chapter. If I picked up anything from my stephen king reading that influenced me a lot, I like how he divides points of view from character to character with numbers. I re-writ about half my first chapter in my first revision, so I'm not ready to share it yet

[Shady Lane]

For sci-fi? 60-120K I'd say is good.

That's for YA. As you will soon learn, I know absolutely nothing that doesn't have to do with YA.

[Esopha]

YA fantasy... I think it's about 75k - 100k.

But someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:

I know you're writing sci-fi, but fantasy is my genre. :)

[Jay-rod]

For sci-fi? 60-120K I'd say is good.

That's for YA. As you will soon learn, I know absolutely nothing that doesn't have to do with YA.

by my third draft I'll be around 120-130k, so good to hear.

[Deirdre]

Just curious around what is expected of an 'acceptable word count?' I find it quite shocking that 150k is considered a lot.
What you may not know is that the major chains, having noticed that long books from not-so-well-known authors weren't selling (because of cost), imposed a moratorium, which means that authors were being pushed to cut manuscripts.

Even famous authors got hit by this, including, I've heard, Connie Willis.

It'll be monumentally harder to sell anything over 120k in the current market.

[Ava Jarvis]

Hello Jay-rod! Welcome to AW. I started writing my junior year, too, so even though I am an old fuddy-duddy now, I still salute you.

Everyone here has given great advice from their own experience. I am going to be recommending books for you to read---they helped me a lot, and are sort of like a condensed version of AW. I don't know what your spending situation is like, but these books don't cost very much and are not thick.

Plus, the first two books are not by authors, who---as King says---do not always know what they are doing with these kinds of books. They are by the people who will be reading your manuscript---editors and agents.

First, is Self Editing for Fiction Writers (http://www.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fiction-Writers-Second-Yourself/dp/0060545690), which offers more assistance than King's book in terms of rewriting your manuscript. Here is where you find out what is tell versus show and the magic invoked to fix it; the mechanics of dialogue; information dumps and how to disperse them; removing the various forms of repetition---which go beyond repeating words, but also passages; rhythm and sophistication tips. There are exercises (with example answers at the back) and a checklist at the end of each section.

It is _the_ book to have during rewrites of anything fiction---short stories as well as novels. Written by two editors.

Second is The First Five Pages (http://www.amazon.com/First-Five-Pages-Writers-Rejection/dp/068485743X/), which tells you what agents look for in the first five (and pages thereafter): what mistakes turn them off, what hooks them in, such as writing to specifics rather than generals, how to start that first page, how much time you have to hook in, the importance of dialogue (note: extremely important, because dialogue is what exposes your writing abilities the most), etc. Written by an agent.

This is the basic set to help you get going. There are other books on narrative techniques, and I don't know if you want them or not---they are written by writers who have the same status as Strunk & White do: not famous, but great at accurate analysis of narrative and story-telling. My strongest suggestion is Techniques of the Selling Writer (http://www.amazon.com/Techniques-Selling-Writer-Dwight-Swain/dp/0806111917/), by Dwight Swain. He is very thorough and, unlike some of the more frou-frou writers' books that King dismisses, penetrative in his analysis. He will take longer to read and digest, but there's very good material in there---whether you're starting from scratch or rewriting.

If I only had three books (plus a separate book on publishing, which I haven't decided upon yet) to choose from, those would be mine. I suppose in some ways I am a Hermione Granger when it comes to writing.

Good luck! Rewriting is one of the final agonies, but in a good way. Good writers are the ones who are good at rewriting, as I believe someone once said.

[Ava Jarvis]

Just curious around what is expected of an 'acceptable word count?' I find it quite shocking that 150k is considered a lot.

Divide 150k by 350, and that's the number of pages that will be in the paperback, roughly. So that would be 428 pages in paperback, which is a lot.

[Deirdre]

Second is The First Five Pages (http://www.amazon.com/First-Five-Pages-Writers-Rejection/dp/068485743X/), which tells you what agents look for in the first five (and pages thereafter): what mistakes turn them off, what hooks them in, such as writing to specifics rather than generals, how to start that first page, how much time you have to hook in, the importance of dialogue (note: extremely important, because dialogue is what exposes your writing abilities the most), etc. Written by an agent.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't think Lukeman has ever read slush, at least not from reading his examples. Therefore, I think his book's really only useful once you get past the slush stage.

In Lukeman's world, apparently:

1) Characters don't wake up on the first page.
2) The theme of the piece isn't "humans are evil."
3) There actually is a plot.
4) People don't jump into backstory like kids jump into puddles.
5) People don't have their entire piece in backstory.
6) Male main characters who are supposed to be sympathetic don't go spouting off misogynistic phrases within those first five pages.

In my world....

[Jay-rod]

Loving the feedback guys. However I must admit, I didn't realize things would get this complicated when I sat down in June and said "Meh, might as well put that story of mine into words now." xD

[Ava Jarvis]

As I've said elsewhere, I don't think Lukeman has ever read slush, at least not from reading his examples. Therefore, I think his book's really only useful once you get past the slush stage.

I think his book is useful for getting out of the 80th percentile into the 95th or better, which still qualifies as "getting out of the slush pile".

The examples you mention are definitely in the lower 50th percentile, and yes, probably they do need their own book. Or Miss Snark.

[Esopha]

Everyone needs Miss Snark.

[Ava Jarvis]

Everyone needs Miss Snark.

That's very true.

Is her site going to turn into a book? I know I read somewhere on her blog (still going through the archives, backwards and forwards) that there wasn't going to be a book. But it would be such a rocking book.

Also, the Uncle Jim thread is going to turn into a book too, is it not? That will also be a rocking book.

[Shane Fitzsimmons]

Don't take this word-count stuff as gospel, Jay-rod.

For my own work, I'm not planning out a specific word count or anything, but if it's under 200,000 I'll be seriously disappointed.

I've seen recent first-time writers sell books well over 200,000 words.

Don't be afraid. Quality sells.

[Deirdre]

I think his book is useful for getting out of the 80th percentile into the 95th or better, which still qualifies as "getting out of the slush pile".

The examples you mention are definitely in the lower 50th percentile, and yes, probably they do need their own book. Or Miss Snark.

I heart Miss Snark.

Fair enough on the 80th to the 95th. I just wish that Lukeman gave a nod to the muck.

[Jay-rod]

I also have to say, its awkward being called Jay-rod. I almost always go by either Zoof or Hisdon on message boards/online games. However, I decided to deign these names to characters in my series, so I went for my real life nick name. xD

[Karen Junker]

I've been told by four of the editors at Tor that they don't look at anything over 150K if it's slush. You'd have to have a pretty high-roller agent to get them to look at anything over 120K, especially if you are unpublished.

The reason for the restrictions on word count is not because larger books don't sell.

Here's how it works: Places that sell books will allow so much space for each book, in order to get more authors/titles in the store. So, if you get three inches for your book and your book is one inch thick, you can sell three books. If your book is one and a half inches thick, you only sell two books. When it's time to re-order, they look at the number of books sold and if they sold three, they'll order three more. If they only sold two, they'll only order two more. See how that works?

The marketing department of a publisher helps decide whether or not your book gets published. They can love your book, but it still comes down to a numbers game.

[Ava Jarvis]

I heart Miss Snark.

Fair enough on the 80th to the 95th. I just wish that Lukeman gave a nod to the muck.

True that.

I don't know where I learned about the lower end of the spectrum (like flashbacks of death, not starting with plot, etc). I learned some of it from everywhere. Self Editing for Fiction Writers, Characters & Viewpoint, etc. A lot from Techniques of the Selling Writer. Some I definitely got from the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread and Miss Snark.

As far as I can remember, I've not run into a book that was specifically "Avoiding the Kiss of Death 101".

[ZannaPerry]

I am literally about to throw my argument out the window because it is pissing me off. I am lacking anger, tension, and above all else...the right words.

So, Jay-Rod, we're in the same boat. :(

[Dave.C.Robinson]

It scares me when I hear that the second book of a trilogy is the one where the story is going to shine, because that means everything's hanging from a weaker link. The first book is the one that needs to sell before any of the others can, so if the second book is where things get going, it will be hard to get readers to it. In fact, I generally find that second books are usually the weakest of a trilogy, because they can't give us either the beginning or the end of the story. My experience has been more along the lines of Elizabeth Moon's Deed of Paksennarion, where I found the first book excellent, the second book only so-so, and the third better than the second but not as good as the first.

Length is also very important. The trick with first novels is to get in the door. One way to do that is not put any additional obstacles in your way that you don't have to. Most SF and Fantasy novels run about 90-110K words. Yes it's possible to write and sell a novel that's over 200K, but it's rarely a good idea for a first time novelist. Most beginners are prone to overwriting and that word length gives far too much room for that. The trick when writing a query or synopsis is to hit the points that will make an agent ask for more, and miss the ones that will put your work in their auto-reject pile. For a large number of agents, 200K is an auto-reject. You can do it. It's simply not a good idea.

Get your novel down around 100K and it will be much more salable than at 150K or more.

[Jay-rod]

So I thought about it overnight and during the day, and quite a lot of things here made sense. I knew my third draft would have a few big changes, but I've decided on quite a large one that will cut 22k words right off the bat. This will also delete two minor characters entirely, allow me to recreate some relationships between characters that will make things flow smoother, and still allow me to continue the story with no ground breaking changes. In total, this will probably cut off 30k words before I have to add any for fixes or edit anything. I even will get to keep a fight scene I really liked in the scrapped part, because I can just transpose it to an earlier part where it'd actually make more sense.

This is looking a lot more promising now. Thanks a ton from the feedback I've received thus far, and hopefully I'll be able to share more when its ready.

Now if I could just get this whole phonetic speech thing right for my character who sounds uneducated <_<

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Don't try to go fully phonetic-- it rarely works. If you want to make a character sound uneducated you'd be better off using other techniques.

Give them a small vocabulary and simple sentence structure. Use repetition. That should get uneducated across without making it hard to read.

[ZannaPerry]

Oh, it all makes so much sense but getting the "making sense" out of your mind is what I find challenging. :(

[FennelGiraffe]

So I thought about it overnight and during the day, and quite a lot of things here made sense. I knew my third draft would have a few big changes, but I've decided on quite a large one that will cut 22k words right off the bat. This will also delete two minor characters entirely, allow me to recreate some relationships between characters that will make things flow smoother, and still allow me to continue the story with no ground breaking changes. In total, this will probably cut off 30k words before I have to add any for fixes or edit anything. I even will get to keep a fight scene I really liked in the scrapped part, because I can just transpose it to an earlier part where it'd actually make more sense.

I haven't looked at your excerpt on SYW yet, so I don't know whether this applies to you, but many of us start out writing wordy. We can reduce our word count by 5-10%, or more, just by tightening our prose, cutting individual words and phrases throughout. That's without cutting any scenes in their entirety. (On the other hand, some people write extremely sparse at first--let's hope you aren't one of those!)

[Deirdre]

I haven't looked at your excerpt on SYW yet, so I don't know whether this applies to you, but many of us start out writing wordy. We can reduce our word count by 5-10%, or more, just by tightening our prose, cutting individual words and phrases throughout. That's without cutting any scenes in their entirety. (On the other hand, some people write extremely sparse at first--let's hope you aren't one of those!)

I usually write my first draft about 40-60% of finished length. I usually add 50-100%, nuke a lot of that, then add another 20% or so, and maybe another round of adding 20% or so. Last draft is cutting about 20%.

[Jay-rod]

Don't try to go fully phonetic-- it rarely works. If you want to make a character sound uneducated you'd be better off using other techniques.

Give them a small vocabulary and simple sentence structure. Use repetition. That should get uneducated across without making it hard to read.


Yeah, I'm finding it really difficult to handle correctly, but I believe it adds a flare to his character that I'd lose if I take it away. Sometimes its really bad, and other times its tolerable. I don't know exactly what to call his dialect, but I used to live in a predominantly black, higher middle class subdivision in the Atlanta suburbs, and I've tried to base his dialect off the ways I often heard elderly men talk there.

Here's an example

“You’s all jus’ jealous cuz’ he was a cute one n' ya’ll were a buncha’ ugly chillun’,” said Zoof as he joined them on the couches. “Lord knows what happened cuz’ now he ugly along with the rest of ya'll. Cept' Kris here. Now she the cute one.”

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Use the dialect sparingly, a little goes a long way. You'll be surprised how well it works.

[Shane Fitzsimmons]

Yeah, that's difficult to read.

But I've seen stuff like that work in novels before. If it's distracting at all it's only because I'm allergic to internet type and really heavy stuff like that, like accents and stuff too, just remind me the hell out of it.

Here's some examples of where it works, from my near-favorite novel, Blade of Tyshalle:

"You workin', decker?" the foredeck second rasped behind him. "Or you fuckin' off?"
...
"Hey, shitsuck, you think I'm not talkin' to you?"
...
"You know the only thing I hate worse'n fuckin' lazy-ass deckers tryin' to scam their passage?" . . . "Fuckin' elves, that's what. Now: You moppin'? Or you swimmin'?"

Effective enough while still sounding somewhat natural and fluid, without being overly distracting.

[Queen of Swords]

Yeah, I'm finding it really difficult to handle correctly, but I believe it adds a flare to his character that I'd lose if I take it away.

It's entirely up to you, of course, but I personally found the dialect racially stereotyped and offensive - and I'm not even black. There are better ways to create characters who are uneducated without risking the loss of readers. I want to enjoy your character even if he's uneducated. I didn't enjoy being reminded of Uncle Peter, Uncle Tom and Jim the escaped fugitive slave.

But in the end it's your novel and your choice.

[Wolvel]

I'm working on a trilogy as well. If your not sure if your info dumping in the first book, walk away from it for a few days, then when you return don't edit, just read the whole book and see if it reads as a stand alone story or a giant info dump.

That ia what I did on my book one. I really don't have any major info dumps until book two which is the writting stage now.

[spacejock2]

"If I only had three books (plus a separate book on publishing, which I haven't decided upon yet) to choose from, those would be mine."

Try this one: "From Pitch to Publication: Everything You Need to Know to Get Your Novel Published (Paperback)" by Carole Blake. I thought it was great, and I've read it right through three or four times now.

[Ava Jarvis]

One thing to keep in mind as you work on your trilogy---you might want to have something in the works after you finish the *first* book and planning stages for the second and third, unless you're sure you only want to work on your trilogy for a long time.

For if the first book doesn't sell, there isn't going to be a trilogy.

I'm working on a series---just the first book for now, which is going to be a stand-alone with enough openings to not count as loose threads, but to lead to another book. At least with a stand-alone, you have a better chance of convincing an agent/editor that this, at least, will sell a little, though perhaps it's a good idea to mention that you have the next two books sketched out---but they are not requirements to sell the entire first story.

So I've got a second series in the works---just in the vague idea stage right now, but very different; again, this will be on a single closed book basis with just enough at the end to lead to closure, but still leave an opening.

By the time the first book in the second series rolls around, if the first one is dead, I've got a third idea lined up---again, different enough so that I'm not trying to poke a dead horse.

In all cases, I will submit until hell won't have it (thank you Uncle Jim).

[Kate Thornton]

One thing to keep in mind as you work on your trilogy---you might want to have something in the works after you finish the *first* book and planning stages for the second and third, unless you're sure you only want to work on your trilogy for a long time.

For if the first book doesn't sell, there isn't going to be a trilogy.


Please take a good look at this very good advice. The thing with a series is that if there is no sale of the first book, there is no series.

Even if you plan a trilogy in your mind, the first book to sell is the first of the series, even if it is the fifth or sixth book you have written. My friend Sue Ann Jaffarian writes mysteries, and the fifth in her series is in the planning stages - because the first sold well, she was ready to write the second, by the third she was working around the clock and now has a multi-book deal from her publisher.

That multi-book deal is when you know you have a trilogy.

Best of luck to you!

[preyer]

there's a theory out there that goes something like, 'use your dialect three times and the reader will read that dialect into all the subsequent dialogue for that character.' not sure if i believe this or not, and i think it's pretty light as far as theories go, but there it is for your consideration.

beyond that, it's y'all, not ya'll. says so on the water tower in florence, KY. common mistake. :) regional vernacular is always something worth taking into account. for instance, some places say 'soda' as opposed to 'pop.' i think the new england region still goes around spouting 'wicked this' and 'wicked that,' as in, 'the pats are a wicked cool team, i don't care how overrated they are.'

i didn't find your excerpt offensive, just stereotypical. mark twain wrote phonetically, but he did so to sometimes make a point. then again, he was mark twain, i.e. a genius humourist. they key, imo, here is to lighten up a bit and use colourful phrases for effect. there are plenty of expressions for 'ugly' down yonder, and sometimes us yanks hear 'em up here. for example, 'he's ugly as a mud fence,' which makes absolutely no sense to me, but i'm not from the south. this, i think, detracts from the stereotype and adds a sense of realism and fun.

the reason you'd divide your word count by 350 is because that's one of the average words per page. i'm sure you figured that out, eh? lol. however, there's an actual formula editors use to determine the 'word count,' and that amounts to an estimate based on space, not the amount of actual words. so, if you follow submission guidelines and set your font and size and margins to their specifications, one page, filled or not, equals 350 words or whatever their specifications says it equals (i'd imagine 350 is a good rule of thumb, but i also imagine some might deviate slightly, i don't know).

a cheap way of removing a lot of words is looking for paragraphs where the very last word in on a separate line. if a line of words equals, say, ten words, you're being 'charged' ten words for that one word. in other words, everything after that last word that is blank space is still considered ten words because it's about the space you use, not the actual word count.

now, if you can edit to make that last word fit into the main body of the paragraph and not just dangling there with a line all its own, you've effectively edited out ten words. so, if you've got all those little astericks separating parts of a chapter in additional to doubling up on your spacing, remove that nonsense now and save yourself a good amount of words, because at the end you'll not be dividing your word count by the average, you'll be dividing how many *pages* you've got by the average. by the end, if you've got five pages worth of astericks in a 150K word MS, you've added 1750 'words' which aren't words at all, but they're counted as words simply because they take up the physical space. make sense?

king, as i recall, says the second draft is the first draft minus ten percent. that's easy, but only you know if you need to go further or if that's too much. i'm probably more in the 15-17% range, which works to eliminate passive voice, too. (passive voice will add all sorts of small, practically invisible supporting words to make the 'passive verbs' (i use the term knowing the strict grammarians amongst you cringe at that) work. your most common offenders are 'had,' 'were,' and, though not technically a 'passive verb' ne'ertheless makes some sentences *sound* passive, 'was.' removing passive voice (i.e., removing 'passive verbs' and making the subsequent changes) not only saves you on words but makes the story better to read. i'm confident in saying use passive voice only when it's your decision to do so. there are a lot of ways to peg rank amateurs, and when someone uses 'was' five times in every paragraph, i'll never know how good the story is because i'll not have gotten that far. this isn't meant as a diatribe about passive/active voice, just know the difference because passive adds to your word count, and if you're *always* writing in a passive voice, that's got to be thousands and thousands of worthless words you're tacking on over the course of a 150K word book. save a tree and write better in the process.)

and don't listen to your friends and family. they're worthless when trying to be objective. listen only to me because i rule.

[preyer]

put yourself in the editor's seat. here's a kid (let's be real, they'll figure it out, especially since minours can't enter into contracts ~ personally, were i an editor, i'd not be happy to find your age out later on when i could have used that as a marketing factor) who's never had anything published, has a huge book one, and ideas on the second and third. what's my incentive again? that enough people will buy a first-timer's book one, and one of a size that's maybe not as marketable because of it?

were i an editor, i'd need assurances that i'm not going to screw up my reputation by taking a chance you'll finish the thing. it goes back to that 'do i write the whole trilogy or not?' debate. i'm sorry, but people don't always finish what they start to begin with, and it's not like i could sue you for not living up to a contract (since it'd be illegal for you to enter into one in the first place. your parents going to sign for you and assume the legal liabilities?). i don't know if you're going to zip through a chapter fast so you can get ready for prom or can't do some work on it because you're studying for your PSATs, know what i mean? sure, i could say the same thing about adults with sick kids, but the idea is, theoretically, adults are more responsible... even if i had to threaten legal action to make them that way.

all that aside, when i, role-playing as a drunken, whoring hard-nose editor here, say, 'okay, what's the second and third book about?' what are you going to respond with? 'i've got some ideas...'? eghn! that's not what i'd want to hear at all. 'ideas' aren't product. i'd need to see detailed outlines not only to see that you're in *some* way capable of finishing the entire story, but that you've got a solid framework to work from indicating that you can conceivably finish the thing given a deadline. 'ideas' and promises don't mean squat, i'd need to know you can finish the thing, have a viable story throughout, and can maintain the quality what interested me in the first place.

how would i do it? first, kick ass with the first book. second, have a detailed outline and synopses for the follow-ups. third, have several chapters of the second book already done, given the proviso that it's subject to some alteration. not that i'd still feel rock solid about it, but at least that's giving me some reason to believe you're motivated enough to finish it. ideally, have all three done. problem there is you're most likely wasting a huge amount of time... great experience, but it could possibly be all for naught.

as an editor, i'd have no guarantees you'd do what you say you'd do. maybe i'm stereotyping here, but it's simply nothing i'd hang my job on and it's not like this stance, imo, isn't without merit. what would make it particularly difficult for me is the fact that i've got no legal recourse against you specifically if you decide to bail out. at least i can take an adult's money and ruin the sorry bastard for bugging out.

were i an editor and given the situation, i'd need to see a finished first book and at least rough drafts of the other two before i gave it serious thought. that's me.

before someone says, 'well, what about christopher paolini?' what about him? his books suck. besides, his parents published the things. 'what about others who got published at my age?' good for them, however those probably weren't trilogies, either. a kid with great talent, mad skillz and something i can sell basically right now, that's a different thing. and the last thing i'd want to do is shell out an advance which gives the kid wet dreams just to have the next two rushed through in a cheap cash money-grab so he can have a brand new mustang for college. *then*, what happens to the writer i took a chance on during his college years? is he still going to give me sellable product between classes and partying? what happens when he gets that degree? is he going to become a full-time whatever and i'll never hear from him again? screw that! were i Editor, i'd want bitches out there making me my money. i'm not going to walk into a situation that i'm going to take a chance on and end up feeling like a sucker in the end. yeah, i could trap you with a book deal, but what would i get if you decide to say the hell with it? what, am i going to take your pop tarts and mac 'n cheese away?

i'd bang out a rough draft of the other two, personally. take a couple of weeks and work out an outline. take a couple of months and just zip through the rough drafts just to have it done. revise on everything as best you can while you wait.

if i thought i could turn a buck off of it, i'd do it. i wouldn't hold my breath that i'd see tons of product within the next several years, or ever, really, but i'd like to know what future projects you've on queue so that i know there's some potential in having a long-term, profitable relationship. were i an editor, i'd feel more comfortable knowing that i could exploit you for years and years and not just for a trilogy done as part ego, part for money for college/resume building, and part as 'getting your one idea out of your system' hobby kind of thing. in the meantime, though, i'd give you a crappy deal just to whet your appetite for more and use a lot of justifications for screwing you until you proved you weren't screw-worthy anymore.

man, i'd be a kick ass editor.