Should I suggest a movie format when pitching?

[GreenTea]

I'm planning to attend the Expo in CA and it is my first one ever. I have a family screenplay but I'm not sure if can suggest the format (such as an animation or a regular feature). When I pitch, is it any of my business to suggest that, or this is something I shouldn't care about?

[Mac H.]

Remember no-one can remember the last time that an animation was purchased from an outsider. They are all done with in-house writers.

So given that no-one will be looking at buying an animation script, then I'd definitely avoid pitching it as an animation.

However, has any film ever been bought at the CA Expo pitch-fest?

I suspect not, which frees you up to be more experimental, and use it as an experience and practice instead of an attempt to sell it. That's good news - less stress and the chance to concentrate on using it to learn instead.

Good luck,

Mac

[similan]

Remember no-one can remember the last time that an animation was purchased from an outsider. They are all done with in-house writers.

So given that no-one will be looking at buying an animation script, then I'd definitely avoid pitching it as an animation.



And why is that? I'm really curious. What if the script is absolutely brilliant; they'd still pass on it?

[Mac H.]

And why is that? I'm really curious. What if the script is absolutely brilliant; they'd still pass on it?
"But I've built a better mousetrap!! Why won't the world beat a path to my door ?"

Perhaps it is partly 'not-invented-here' syndrome.

However, it is also an incredibly collaborative medium, with incredibly long development times. To try and insert a new project in the middle of a development that doesn't have internal buy-in would seem really hard.

Of course, 'Happy Feet' was a spec-ish script by George Miller (that he did after his other project collapsed) .. but when you are George Miller the rules are slightly different!

It certainly wasn't a script by an outsider being bought by an existing animation giant!

Mac
(PS: It's a theoretical discussion - the person you are pitching to at the pitch-fest doesn't have the power to 'pass' or 'buy' for Pixar anyway!!!)

[NikeeGoddess]

do your research and make sure you pitch to someone looking for family fare and sometimes will say animation. the reps tell the expo people what they're looking for as well. if i were you i would sell it as a live action script and if they ask if it could be animated then you can say, of course. yeah, let them decide based on what they're looking for.

[J. Holmes]

I agree with Nikee. Of course, you could always wait until they're interested in the concept and then while you're disgussing it, slip in the question what they think of doing it as an animation instead. Sneaky...hehe.

[GreenTea]

My story can be either a regular feature or animation. I personally prefer a feature because there's a bigger audience. Guess, I won't even bring the animation question up since it's up to the producer and none of my business.

[nmstevens]

And why is that? I'm really curious. What if the script is absolutely brilliant; they'd still pass on it?

It's a question of the "pathways."

Those who make animated features, when they go looking for new projects, go to certain sources, just as those who are looking for live action features go to certain sources.

There are various paths to live action features. Spec screenplays are one of those traditional paths.

But in the much narrower realm of animation features, the pathways have always started within the animation world, generally with an artist/animator/director.

If you're someone who produces animated features -- you've got a bunch of guys who've produced and directed in the field animators and segment directors and story guys (that is, animation story guys) -- guys who've worked in the business for years and have been waiting for their chances to pitch.

They're the ones that they're going to go to. They don't go looking for spec screenplays, because that's simply not the way that animation projects are generally developed. They don't "grow" that way.

NMS

[javili]

If I was talking to somebody about a script like that, I would say something like, "I keep thinking this would make a great animated picture, but I know that's a can of worms." or something like that.

[nmstevens]

If I was talking to somebody about a script like that, I would say something like, "I keep thinking this would make a great animated picture, but I know that's a can of worms." or something like that.


I must reiterate that I think that it's a mistake. The people who make live action movies are in the business of making live action movies. Ditto with those who make animated movies. Even within the same studio, such as Dreamworks or Disney, they are different divisions, with different staffs, different development personnel, different routes to production.

If you go in to pitch a spec feature at Disney, there's only one kind that you can pitch -- and that's a live action feature.

The way that animated features get pitched is a whole other route to which you, as a writer of spec features, simply have no access -- nor, for that matter, do the execs that you're pitching to have access. It's a world unto itself.

If you're going in to pitch a product to someone who is looking to buy a product of a certain kind -- the last thing you want to say to them is -- this product that I am trying to sell isn't the kind of the product that you are in the market to buy.

No. What you want to do is to try to convey to them that what you are selling is *exactly* what they are looking to buy. They want a live-action comedy adventure family film. This is it. Exactly what they want.

Why would you mention, even in passing, that you think of it as something else -- something that they are not?

Imagine it this way -- imagine going in to Paramount and saying, "You know, I sort of think of this as kind of Disney movie, but that's a whole other can of worms --"

What does that mean? That you can't sell it to Disney so you're trying to pawn it off on us?

Same deal -- so what you're saying is, you wrote this as an animated film, but you can't sell it that way, so we're your second choice?

Why would you ever even risk putting such a thought in the heads of people you're trying to sell to?

If, by some miracle, you ever managed to get a chance to sell to someone who makes animated films, then sell it that way -- but if you're going in to people who make live action features, then the words "animated film" should never cross your lips.

NMS

[javili]

So you're saying Paramount doesn't make animated films? The use of the word "Disney" here is YOURS, nobody elses.

And you assume this pitching is being done in some office at a big studio, instead of some independent producer or rainmaker?

Any time you pitch any concept in any industry there is a bit of talk that goes on. Half of it is just feeling around, advertising who you are, probing for who they are, etc. The idea that dropping a few lines into that would be some horrible error is naive.

One of the things such a remark does, other than JUST POSSIBLY igniting some little spark where he remembers talking to some guys last month who were dying to do an animated film because they're cutting a deal with a S. Korean rendering mill, would be to indicate that you realize the difference between your vision and reality. An important subtext to establish, especially in a business where most of the writers are dreamkids.

[nmstevens]

So you're saying Paramount doesn't make animated films? The use of the word "Disney" here is YOURS, nobody elses.

And you assume this pitching is being done in some office at a big studio, instead of some independent producer or rainmaker?

Any time you pitch any concept in any industry there is a bit of talk that goes on. Half of it is just feeling around, advertising who you are, probing for who they are, etc. The idea that dropping a few lines into that would be some horrible error is naive.

One of the things such a remark does, other than JUST POSSIBLY igniting some little spark where he remembers talking to some guys last month who were dying to do an animated film because they're cutting a deal with a S. Korean rendering mill, would be to indicate that you realize the difference between your vision and reality. An important subtext to establish, especially in a business where most of the writers are dreamkids.


Paramount, in terms of its organization, is no different than any other place that does animation. They are considered separate divisions. The people who are looking for live action features at (fill in the name of the studio) are not the people who are looking for animated features and vice versa.

The indie producer you posit above -- the one who is simultaneously looking for projects for both live action features and animated features, well, maybe he's out there somewhere, but I sure don't know who he is, or where he is, and I wouldn't count on finding him.

Basically, if you were pitching something as a live action feature and he happens to say something like, "You know, have you ever thought of this as an animated feature?" then I'd thank the gods and it's off to the races.

I'm not going to suggest that that couldn't ever happen, but I wouldn't count on it happening, and short of it happening -- if you go in to pitch it as a live action feature, stick with that -- in exactly the same way that if you went in to pitch it to the division that specialized in animated features, I wouldn't pause in the course of the pitch and mention that, just maybe, it could also work as a live action feature.

That sort of comment would not help in either situation, to advance the chances of success. It would only convey that I, the person doing the pitching, do not have a clear vision for the project.

NMS

[javili]

The indie producer you posit above -- the one who is simultaneously looking for projects for both live action features and animated features, well, maybe he's out there somewhere,

They are, of course, everywhere. And the chances of talking to them are much better than talking to Paramount or Disney or any of the names you conjured into this discussion.

It would only convey that I, the person doing the pitching, do not have a clear vision for the project.

No....it conveys that you have done a lot of thinking about it, and are flexible.

[nmstevens]

They are, of course, everywhere. And the chances of talking to them are much better than talking to Paramount or Disney or any of the names you conjured into this discussion.



No....it conveys that you have done a lot of thinking about it, and are flexible.


I don't know how much real world experience you have had pitching to actual producers. Perhaps you have had a lot.

I can only judge from my experience. I've pitched my scripts at a lot of places, both majors and indie companies and in my experience, they are not "everywhere."

I wouldn't say that they are nowhere, but they are pretty close to nowhere, because the number of places that do animated features and are looking for spec scripts are essentially non-existent so that, by itself, would have to mean that the number of producers in the market to sell spec scripts to other companies that do animated featurees would have to be, under the best of all possible circumstances, extremely small.

If your real world experience differs, than by all means share that real world experience.

I haven't simply "conjured" names like Disney or Paramount. I have had scripts set up at Paramount, have pitched scripts to Disney, have had scripts bought by most majors, produced by Warner Bros, and have sold scripts and pitched to both majors and indies -- so when I talk about these places, I'm not just "conjuring" -- I'm talking from personal experience.

If you've had personal experiences that are different, I'm sure that I and others would be interested in hearing what those experiences have been.

If, on the other hand, you're just talking, you should understand that what I'm saying, I'm saying based on what I've learned by actually being in the room with these people.

NMS

[GreenTea]

Nmstevens, thanks for your comments.

[javili]

I said conjured because you took the discussion to that level of pitch unilaterally.

I said they are everywhere because I see so many of them. A quick browse on mandy.com will reveal dozens and dozens of independent producers.

It must be very interesting getting to pitch to these people. I would appreciate it if you could post some of the things you've done that led to sales and options. I'm sure that would be helpful to all of us.

[nmstevens]

I said conjured because you took the discussion to that level of pitch unilaterally.

I said they are everywhere because I see so many of them. A quick browse on mandy.com will reveal dozens and dozens of independent producers.

It must be very interesting getting to pitch to these people. I would appreciate it if you could post some of the things you've done that led to sales and options. I'm sure that would be helpful to all of us.

Anyone can be a "producer" because all it takes to be a producer is to call yourself one, just as all it takes to be a screenwriter is to call yourself one.

But what you claimed was something different -- not only that there were a lot of indie producers around, but that there were a lot of indie producers around who were looking for spec scripts aimed *both* for live action features and also for animated features.

That's a very different claim and if you can actually back that up with anything -- either from mandy.com (which, I must confess, I don't anything about) or anything else, I'd be interested in seeing.

I'd be interested in seeing anything in black and white that suggested that any producer of animated features was actively seeking spec screenplays from non-animation writers or even had the door open for such material.

Regarding my own sales, what you need to realize is that, in the movie world, the ratio of projects optioned/bought to projects produced is something on the order of ten to one. And so, with most screenwriters, producers, and ever directors, the ratio is similar. You end up spending a majority of your career working on projects that never see the light of day.

The projects of mine that have been produced are the remake of Thirteen Ghosts for Dark Castle at Warner Brothers and what started off as an original spec called "Deader" which I sold to Dimension but which, for reasons that are two strange to go into, ended up as a Hellraiser sequel called, creatively enough, "Hellraiser:Deader".


Beyond that, I've sold a spec to Universal by way of Ocean Pictures that was still in development, last time I looked, after around ten years.

Sold a project off a two sentence pitch to "Gone Fishin" -- Casey Silver's company (also by way of Universal).

I sold a spec and done a rewrite on another project for New Line.

Did a movie adaptation for Focus Features that they hated because they thought it was too faithful to the original.

Did a book adaptation for Paramount by way of Radar and Platinum Dunes that almost got greenlit until there was a big management turnover and then it died.

I was one of three writers who was hired to do a version of Blair Witch 2 for Artisan (they didn't pick mine, so don't blame me for the result).

I wrote an adaptation of a comic book for a TV movie that ultimately went nowhere.

I wrote a mini-series for TNT based on hard SF novel -- which they then had me re-write as a one-nighter and then ditched altogether.

Wrote a book adaptation for Jersey Films (Danny DeVito's company -- no, I didn't meet him) which ultimately went nowhere.

Wrote an original screenplay based on a producer's premise for The Mayhem Project -- which also apparently hasn't gone anywhere.

I also directed a low budget features called "Stitches" -- available at your local video store or at Netflix.

In addition to the above, there are three projects of mine that are currently in play that I'm not going to jinx by talking about them one way or another.

I also worked in TV and in low budget features in various capacities for something like ten years prior to the above run.

Needless to say, the above only refers to the stuff that I've written or pitched and sold, not to the numerous things that I've failed to sell, because for every spec script you write, there are usually two or three or more that never sell. For everything you pitch and they buy, there are countless pitches that they pass on.

That's how it works.

NMS

[javili]

You don't need me. Just post a thing about how much you've been around the business.

I asked if you had anything helpful to say, not how cool you are.

You are arguing a lot here about things you THOUGHT I said. The question was about pitching...you made it pitching to Paramount or Disney. You asked if there were indy prodco's all over. There are. Many of them are just somebody with a trust fund wanting to do something.

It would be helpful to hear your angle on how you pitched things that sold. I have really no interest in continuing this argument. And like I say, it doesn't require my participation.

[nmstevens]

You don't need me. Just post a thing about how much you've been around the business.

I asked if you had anything helpful to say, not how cool you are.

You are arguing a lot here about things you THOUGHT I said. The question was about pitching...you made it pitching to Paramount or Disney. You asked if there were indy prodco's all over. There are. Many of them are just somebody with a trust fund wanting to do something.

It would be helpful to hear your angle on how you pitched things that sold. I have really no interest in continuing this argument. And like I say, it doesn't require my participation.

Neither yours nor mine. What you said and what I said are both here and available for anyone to read, therefore nobody, including me, needs to wonder about what we "thought" you said.

This was my quote and your reply:

Quote:
The indie producer you posit above -- the one who is simultaneously looking for projects for both live action features and animated features, well, maybe he's out there somewhere,
"They are, of course, everywhere. And the chances of talking to them are much better than talking to Paramount or Disney or any of the names you conjured into this discussion."



The point that I was making was not whether there were such things as indie producers. I actually know that there are indie producers in the world, that they do actually exist.

I asked you whether you knew, personally, of any indie producers that were looking for spec scripts both for live action features and for animated features.

Your reply? "They are, of course, everywhere."

You've kind of backed off from that but it's clear that you still don't want to answer that question, nor do you really have to, because by this point, I think that the answer is pretty clear to everybody -- and I hope that that includes you as well.

What is more disturbing to me is that you're obviously not clued in enough to realize that I've been doing my very best to be exceptionally polite to an amateur who's not only been quite rude to me but has also been giving advice without really knowing what he's talking about.

Indeed, no one's participation is required. Neither yours nor mine. It's all voluntary, all the way around. Nobody gets paid to be here.

It's possible to disagree on all sorts of questions and for the conversation to remain civil.

But if you're going to give people advice, I think that you need to be in a position to back that advice up, preferably with some kind of real experience.

And if you're interested in some advice of mine, one of my first pieces of advice is that you need to understand how others are going to read what you write.

For instance -- you wrote: "I would appreciate it if you could post some of the things you've done that led to sales and options."

Now -- how could someone reading this interpret it?

I read "some of the things you've done" to mean, -- some of the scripts that I've written or projects that I've pitched -- that led to sales and options. So that's what I answered -- I listed the various projects over the last few years that led to professional sales.

Because that's how I read what you asked.

Which, apparently, you took as my blowing my own horn. Which, believe me, I don't need to do here, or anywhere else.

Instead, it seems, by "some of the things you've done" you meant, "some of the strategies you've used" that led to sales.

A rather different request and a rather more complicated one.

The reality is, so much of whether you succeed or fail at a pitch has as much to do with whether you, personally, are hot at the moment, as the thing that you're pitching. A lot of the time, whoever you're pitching to is looking for something very specific, either in respect to a particular project (if it's a rewrite or an adaptation) -- or if it's a spec, they generally have certain "slots" that they're looking to fill -- or if they're a company with a studio deal, they know that the studio has a certain slot that it's looking to fill -- and they are going to look at the projects that writers pitch in those terms -- can this thing fill that slot?

But often, you have no idea what those undercurrents are -- what those slots are, what their needs are, what they're looking for. And so you never really know, not only why a pitch or a script is passed on, but even why a script is bought when it is or why you're hired. It's not that there aren't often very specific reasons for it -- it's just that you often never find out what the reasons are, or sometimes don't find out for a long, long time.

NMS

[javili]

Do you believe that anybody read all that stuff?

[Mac H.]

Do you believe that anybody read all that stuff?Yep. I did.

[dpaterso]

How can this possibly have developed into an argument? :eek:

Methinks original poster got good answers to his question.

Anyone got anything else to add, for GreenTea's benefit?

-Derek

[NikeeGoddess]

My story can be either a regular feature or animation. I personally prefer a feature because there's a bigger audience.
this is not totally true. disney (for example) actually makes more money with it's direct to dvd animated features than it does with it's big screen features for children*. millions and millions of parents out there would rather buy dvds for their kids then take them to a movie. the kids watch that crap over and over and over and over keeping them entertained lol!!!

*not to brag but this information came directly (face to face) from nina jacobson head of buena vista. you can't get any bigger than that in animation.

your biggest problem with getting into animation is figuring out how to sell it. i don't know how. the only way "one" i know is that you need to be hired by disney. they do have a disney fellowship program that you can apply for. it pays and you'll have your foot in the door. but i'm sure competition is tough.

[javili]

From inktip

1) Caruso Visual Productions Inc. - Animation Writers
---------------

We are looking for writers who have completed sports-themed animation
screenplays. We will not be optioning the screenplay, as we are looking to
hire a writer. We will, however, need to see that the writing style meets our
sensibilities. We will look over your logline and synopsis, and if your script
looks interesting, we will request it as a sample.

We are looking to write an animated feature that involves an international
sports theme (preferably soccer) and is aimed at a pre-teen viewing audience
(ages 8-13). The main character will overcome many obstacles.

There are indies looking for animation. Some of the best selling films have been animated. It's a monster in the direct to DVD market.