Word Count for First Novels

[childeroland]

I've been told by an agent and a few editors that publishers prefer first novels to have a word count of below 100,000, preferably 80-90,000. Anyone else have experience of this, or of selling first time novels over 90,000?

[aruna]

My first novel had a word count of around 150,000. It sold at auction in1998.
Toothpaste's first novel - YA - I don't know the word count but at almost 400 pages it's definitely over 100,000.

[maestrowork]

Anything from 60K to 150K... I think is within the norm.

[Jamesaritchie]

Find publisher's length guidelines and then follow them. Not doing so makes selling a novel a heck of a lot harder than it should be, and often causes even more problems down the road, if you do sell the novel.

Do not go by exceptions. Those who manage not to follow length guidelines and still sell are in the tiny, tiny, tiny minority. Find the guidelines, read the guidelines, follow the guidelines, preferably before you even start writing the novel.

[childeroland]

That's what I thought but is there a secret (forgive the conspiratorial tone) preference --among editors dealing with first novels--for a certain word length in spite of their guidelines?

[Susan Breen]

I always thought that you were supposed to aim for 70,000 to 80,000 words, though of course there are exceptions.

[Jamesaritchie]

That's what I thought but is there a secret (forgive the conspiratorial tone) preference --among editors dealing with first novels--for a certain word length in spite of their guidelines?

No. Those guidelines are in place specifically for first novels. Once you've sold a novel or two, you can usually write something considerably longer than these guidelines state.

[scarletpeaches]

...Toothpaste's first novel - YA - I don't know the word count but at almost 400 pages it's definitely over 100,000.

I would have said it was far lower than 100k. Large type and pictures take up a lot of space, and I think it's MG rather than YA. It was shelved in the 8-12 section in my local Waterstone's.

[Jamesaritchie]

It looks under 100K to me, but it doesn't matter. You have to go by the rule, not the exceptions to the rule.

[Toothpaste]

It's 80 000 (and there are no pictures in it! - okay the UK one has tiny sketches at the start of each chapter, but they don't really take up room). I think aruna, the German copy is longer than the English language one though.

Anyway, 80 000 is actually still way over the norm for the MG range. But I still cut it down a fair bit from what it was originally (my agent wouldn't sign me until I'd cut 10 000). The crazy thing was after I had cut it down, I hadn't actually cut any scenes or anything. So what remained was the exact same book, but suddenly it read so much tighter and better. It read . . .like a real book. It was cool.

I'm with James. More often than not, there is editing that can be done. And I just don't know why people are afraid of editing, it makes one's book so much better!

[scarletpeaches]

Who cares how long it is as long as people buy it, right? :D

[valen_sinclair]

what happens if you have a triology as your first piece???

[Carrie R.]

I do know agents who will auto-ding a novel that's not within the typical word length for the novel (for example, will ding a 140k romance from a first time writer). I'm with JAR -- there are exceptions, but as a first time writer you want to reduce any hurdles between you and publication. Having a novel within general word count for your genre can only help. And it varies from genre to genre (fantasies and sf tend to be longer than romance, for example).

[Jamesaritchie]

It's 80 000

Anyway, 80 000 is actually still way over the norm for the MG range. But I still cut it down a fair bit from what it was originally (my agent wouldn't sign me until I'd cut 10 000). The crazy thing was after I had cut it down, I hadn't actually cut any scenes or anything. So what remained was the exact same book, but suddenly it read so much tighter and better. It read . . .like a real book. It was cool.

I'm with James. More often than not, there is editing that can be done. And I just don't know why people are afraid of editing, it makes one's book so much better!

I think Rowling screwed up word length guidelines for both MG and YA. There have been some fierce arguments inside publishing about acceptable length for these categories.

[Toothpaste]

Yes I do think she opened the door to longer lengths. I think as long as kids are willing to read it, it shouldn't be a problem. None of the kids I've met seem daunted by the size of my book. Heck compared to the last couple HP's, it's practically tiny.

[KTC]

i'm at about 48K and I only have about 3 weeks left to submit to the publisher. But they will have been informed it will probably be a novella...so I can only hope they are not disappointed by the word count.

[BruceJ]

what happens if you have a triology as your first piece???
Good question here. Does the entire series have to be finished before submitting the MS for the first volume, or will publishers accept the project on a volume-by-volume basis? Or does this vary by publisher, too?

[Jamesaritchie]

Good question here. Does the entire series have to be finished before submitting the MS for the first volume, or will publishers accept the project on a volume-by-volume basis? Or does this vary by publisher, too?

In this case, you need some luck, and a terrific first novel. It is not unheard of for new writers to sell a trilogy, but it is incredibly difficult. The problem with a trilogy is that if the first book flops, why would the publisher want the second and third? It only means they would lose even more money. So most publishers want trilogies from writers who have already proven their ability to please the reading public.

It's far better, and far easier, for a new writer to write a standalone first novel. If this is successful, it can be turned into a series, the way Harry Potter was.

[BruceJ]

Thanks, James. Unfortunately, I've already embarked on that route, with the first volume (a novella ~40K words) being an intro/prelude to the series. The second work is at ~86K right now and probably won't get much bigger. The first work was published by a subsidy publisher (I know, I know...), but I'm not sure how I'll approach the remainder of the series. I'm obligated by contract to give them first dibs on the second work, but I'm not obligated to take their follow-on contract, if one comes. We'll see. Any suggestions you may have on a way ahead would be greatly appreciated.

[Khazarkhum]

Would you call Steinbeck's "Of Mice & Men" a novel?

It's well under 40,000 words.

Take the time to tell your story, and let the story dictate the length. If needs be, you can compress it later.

[Voyager]

I was kind of freaking out about the length of my novel. It's at around 73,000. Good to know I'm right where I need to be. :D

[vfury]

And I just don't know why people are afraid of editing, it makes one's book so much better!

I love editing! Possibly because it involves lots of note making, list making and ripping apart. There's also the satisfaction from knowing the end result is almost always better than the original.

People have commented that my enthusiasm can be a bit alarming at times, though...

[ORION]

When I was querying LOTTERY it was about 72,000- after I finished "tweaking" with my agent it was 89,000 which was the length that it sold to Putnam- after editing there it is now 87,000 as a published hardback-
There are certain genre which are specific on length - there are certain imprints who have specific guide lines. When you are querying for representation there are generalities - but each situation is unique - depending on whether you are a debut author - switching genres, an established entity - etc.
The generalization is as others have said - a new author should probably keep their word count under 100 K - to increase their chances for representation -
This question is asked over and over - the other part is the premise and the writing-
The three go hand in hand- There are no hard and fast rules -
I know if I was an agent and I got a query for a 500,000 word novel no matter how brilliant the query letter was - I'd have to really think twice about requesting it!

[popmuze]

My agent just told me to pare my 100,000 word first adult novel down to at least 90, preferably 80 or 70. I got it down to 92 and I'm hoping for the best.
But I'm wondering what 90k would amount to in a typical hardcover layout. In a random inspection of the novels in front of me I find around 400 words a page. So even 92k would be less than 250 pages, which doesn't seem that much of a burden to put on the reader.

[lkp]

Remember also that genre has a big impact on word count. I was told by my agent that 120,000was not too long for historical fiction, and I believe the same is true for fantasy. There's no one size fits all answer, even for debut novelists.

[Julie Worth]

Remember also that genre has a big impact on word count. I was told by my agent that 120,000was not too long for historical fiction, and I believe the same is true for fantasy. There's no one size fits all answer, even for debut novelists.

Absolutely. If you want to sell SF to some houses, it has to be at least 100,000, even for a first novel. So if popmuze would spice up his book with a few flying saucers, he wouldn't have to cut anything.

[ORION]

Popmuze - it's hard to determine page number by just word count- It depends on the type size, the amount of dialogue and the paragraph length - Lottery published as a hardback is 87,000 words and 320 pages-
Published as a trade paperback the page number will change again.

[wee]

Absolutely. If you want to sell SF to some houses, it has to be at least 100,000, even for a first novel. So if popmuze would spice up his book with a few flying saucers, he wouldn't have to cut anything.


I wonder if book edition has anything to do with this. In historical the prevailing attitude is that you can't tell a proper story in in under 100k. In SF you also have to create a "world", which will be hard to do properly in less.

But in SF in particular, so many are printed as paperbacks in first edition -- in which case, why skimp? In regular fiction where many books start in hardcover, that is a much bigger investment on a first-time author.

So many first-time authors want to start with trilogies, which kind of blows my mind. It always brings to mind Miss Prism from The Importance of Being Ernest. Why not condense it into a really action-packed first book, or put it aside & write an amazing debut novel that will make publishers hungry for that trilogy next?



wee

[wee]

I always wondered what Sue Grafton was thinking when she began her series with the letter 'A' and intended to publish exactly 26 books in her series about the private detective. I had difficulty making it through just one book. She's incredibly optimistic. :)



A is for Alibi was actually her eighth novel! She says that of her first seven books she wrote, only two of them ever saw the light of day, "and rightly so" (from her site). LOL

The Alphabet series is what she is known for, but she didn't wake up one morning & think, "I believe I'll write a 26-part series about ...." Some of her letters only just barely relate to the story (a notable exception is Q), and the books read like episodes. You can pick up G is for Gumshoe, having never read one before, and have no problem at all. Every single book stands alone. It's like watching a random episode of Law & Order: seeing a recurring character (like Henry or Rosie) is like an easter egg, but doesn't affect the main story. That is different from a three-part story that must be read in order ... it isn't a "series" in that respect.


wee

[BruceJ]

So, I don't think anyone necessarily thinks "oh, I want to do a trilogy" when they first start. It just kind of ends up that way with your favorite books because you want to keep the story going.
Exactly. I just did a poor job of predicting where my plot was going to take me. I didn't scope it as a trilogy (plus prelude) until the first story was finished and half the second one drafted until I realized I hadn't scratched the surface deeply enough to fit it into a single volume (at least one that anyone would want to buy from an unknown author).

[Toothpaste]

Oh I don't know. I think some writers, especially fantasy writers, sort of assume they will be writing a series. That is the convention after all. Not saying what you guys are saying isn't true for yourself, just speaking more generally!

[RLSMiller]

I set out writing my WIP with a series in mind. I haven't decided if it will be three or five books, but I have the plots laid out for three at least. Sure, it might be harder to pitch, but I guess you have to go where your heart takes you.

[dantem42]

I wonder if book edition has anything to do with this. In historical the prevailing attitude is that you can't tell a proper story in in under 100k.

In historical, the issue is largely that you are satisfying a desire on the part of readers that isn't usually as pronounced in other genres. Most historical readers love buckets and buckets of period detail: descriptions of clothing, rooms, houses and buildings, gardens, as well as historical tidbits from the target period. These can easily be more than a quarter of the book; in addition, you need all the plot and characterization found in other fictional genres. So a historical novel can easily be 25,000 or more words longer than a novel without all that period setting stuff.

[dantem42]

Popmuze - it's hard to determine page number by just word count- It depends on the type size, the amount of dialogue and the paragraph length - Lottery published as a hardback is 87,000 words and 320 pages-
Published as a trade paperback the page number will change again.

Sounds about right. My novel will come out in hardback at something like 400 pages, 117,000 words. Most (though not all) hardbacks are published with a fairly large type size compared to paperback. People who pay $25 or $30 for a book don't want to go blind reading it.

[Andrew Zack]

Okay, let's see if I can bring some clarification to this question:

If you are writing for a specific genre list, e.g., some line at Harlequin, there will be word-length guidelines available. Find them and use them.

If you are writing a general novel, be it romance, SF&F, mystery, whatever, I would strongly urge you to go no longer than 100K and preferably about 90K and there are a few reasons for this.

1. Agents and editors cringe when they get big, fat first novels. The very thought of trying to get through it may mean you get read later than something shorter. It's a psychological thing, but with a real effect.

2. Paper costs money. A very long first novel is a riskier bet financially than a shorter one. If I am a publisher paying $5K for a first SF novel and my choice is one that costs .54 to print or one that costs .65 to print, and all other elements are pretty even, I'm going for the one that offers me a greater profit margin.

3. Shelf space and rack pockets cost money. The average sell-through on a paperback book is around 50%, often less. I'm the buyer for a large chain of drugstores. I have 50 pockets to fill in every store. I am presented with two books. One of these books is a first romance novel that is 150,000 words and I can fit three in one pocket. Another is a first romance novel that is 90,000 words and I can fit five in each pocket. Publishers are aware of this, which is why if you look at a publisher's catalogue, it always lists trim size and page length. They know that they have a better bet of making money publishing the shorter book, because more books will fit in the pockets at wholesale accounts or in one faced-out spot at B&N. Accounts generally will not buy more copies of a first novel than will fit in one pocket or one spot, unless there is a publisher incentive to do so, e.g., co-op.

4. Back to paper costs money. Think about print size. You want your book printed 8 over 9? If you don't know, that means 8 point type on 9 points of leading. Most paperback books today are 9/10, maybe 10/11, because paper costs money. Smaller print means fewer pages. Fewer pages means less money to print. Write a really long book and you can bet your type will be smaller. If you think readers don't skip books with tiny type, you have very good eyes. There is a reason the large-print business is booming. There is a point where a publisher says, we need this to be 288 pages to charge $7.99. Or 352 or whatever. If your book will go to that length and can be set 10/11 you are better off than it needing to be set 9/10 to get to the right length. You will lose sales if your type is too small. Now, you can't control this at the publisher any other way than keeping your length reasonable.

5. Rights. That super-long book will have less of a chance to be sold in other versions. Translation costs are often by the page. Longer books cost more to translate, which often means fewer foreign deals. Longer books cost more to record as audios, which means you have less of a chance of selling audio. And large print? Fuggetaboutit! Paper costs money, which is why there are abridged large print books.

But, wait, you're the next Herman Melville? Charles Dickens? Tom Wolfe? Go for it. Because if you are, then all the rules can be broken. But you better have the skills if you are going to break those rules.

If I were going to sit down and write a novel today, I'd look at the market I'm aiming for and I'd write to that market. If I get established, I'd go a bit longer, then maybe longer, if I need to, but don't write a long book just because you like run-on sentences.

Publishing is a business. And it is bad business to not give the customer--in this case agents and editors--what they want or need.

Z

[childeroland]

Would a 70,000 word length (assuming it didn't violate publisher/agent guidelines) hurt a fantasy novel?

Okay, let's see if I can bring some clarification to this question:

If you are writing for a specific genre list, e.g., some line at Harlequin, there will be word-length guidelines available. Find them and use them.

If you are writing a general novel, be it romance, SF&F, mystery, whatever, I would strongly urge you to go no longer than 100K and preferably about 90K and there are a few reasons for this.

1. Agents and editors cringe when they get big, fat first novels. The very thought of trying to get through it may mean you get read later than something shorter. It's a psychological thing, but with a real effect.

2. Paper costs money. A very long first novel is a riskier bet financially than a shorter one. If I am a publisher paying $5K for a first SF novel and my choice is one that costs .54 to print or one that costs .65 to print, and all other elements are pretty even, I'm going for the one that offers me a greater profit margin.

3. Shelf space and rack pockets cost money. The average sell-through on a paperback book is around 50%, often less. I'm the buyer for a large chain of drugstores. I have 50 pockets to fill in every store. I am presented with two books. One of these books is a first romance novel that is 150,000 words and I can fit three in one pocket. Another is a first romance novel that is 90,000 words and I can fit five in each pocket. Publishers are aware of this, which is why if you look at a publisher's catalogue, it always lists trim size and page length. They know that they have a better bet of making money publishing the shorter book, because more books will fit in the pockets at wholesale accounts or in one faced-out spot at B&N. Accounts generally will not buy more copies of a first novel than will fit in one pocket or one spot, unless there is a publisher incentive to do so, e.g., co-op.

4. Back to paper costs money. Think about print size. You want your book printed 8 over 9? If you don't know, that means 8 point type on 9 points of leading. Most paperback books today are 9/10, maybe 10/11, because paper costs money. Smaller print means fewer pages. Fewer pages means less money to print. Write a really long book and you can bet your type will be smaller. If you think readers don't skip books with tiny type, you have very good eyes. There is a reason the large-print business is booming. There is a point where a publisher says, we need this to be 288 pages to charge $7.99. Or 352 or whatever. If your book will go to that length and can be set 10/11 you are better off than it needing to be set 9/10 to get to the right length. You will lose sales if your type is too small. Now, you can't control this at the publisher any other way than keeping your length reasonable.

5. Rights. That super-long book will have less of a chance to be sold in other versions. Translation costs are often by the page. Longer books cost more to translate, which often means fewer foreign deals. Longer books cost more to record as audios, which means you have less of a chance of selling audio. And large print? Fuggetaboutit! Paper costs money, which is why there are abridged large print books.

But, wait, you're the next Herman Melville? Charles Dickens? Tom Wolfe? Go for it. Because if you are, then all the rules can be broken. But you better have the skills if you are going to break those rules.

If I were going to sit down and write a novel today, I'd look at the market I'm aiming for and I'd write to that market. If I get established, I'd go a bit longer, then maybe longer, if I need to, but don't write a long book just because you like run-on sentences.

Publishing is a business. And it is bad business to not give the customer--in this case agents and editors--what they want or need.

Z

[Andrew Zack]

Depends on the type of fantasy novel. What is it?

[childeroland]

historical fantasy

[Andrew Zack]

70K may be a bit light for historical fantasy.

[Dragon-lady]

In fantasy, you can largely forget anything below 85,000 words for a major publisher such as Tor. 100,000 is about average and some publishers such as Baen won't even look at anything shorter.

[KikiteNeko]

My (currently unpublished) MS is 66K words. I've had 10 requests for either a partial or full, and only one agent commented that she was concerned about the word count being low. She said that 80-100K is the norm, but that it shouldn't matter if the story execution etc. are true standouts.

[Michael Parks]

Great info, Andrew, thanks+++

[stranger_friction]

trying to use the 250 per page word count method but my WIP seems to average out at about 305 words a page in standard form. is this going to make my life more difficult in the end?

[blacbird]

trying to use the 250 per page word count method but my WIP seems to average out at about 305 words a page in standard form. is this going to make my life more difficult in the end?

The 250 word estimate is based on Courier 12-pt. font, double spaced. You are almost certainly using a smaller font, like TNR, or not using double line-spacing.

[jimbro]

That's what I thought but is there a secret (forgive the conspiratorial tone) preference --among editors dealing with first novels--for a certain word length in spite of their guidelines?

The reason why this is unlikely is that it is in the editor's own best interests to let you know the actual, true preferences. They gain nothing by keeping this a secret.

[Jamesaritchie]

My agent just told me to pare my 100,000 word first adult novel down to at least 90, preferably 80 or 70. I got it down to 92 and I'm hoping for the best.
But I'm wondering what 90k would amount to in a typical hardcover layout. In a random inspection of the novels in front of me I find around 400 words a page. So even 92k would be less than 250 pages, which doesn't seem that much of a burden to put on the reader.

The average adult novel is 100K, so this should give you some idea.

[Jamesaritchie]

Okay, let's see if I can bring some clarification to this question:

If you are writing for a specific genre list, e.g., some line at Harlequin, there will be word-length guidelines available. Find them and use them.

If you are writing a general novel, be it romance, SF&F, mystery, whatever, I would strongly urge you to go no longer than 100K and preferably about 90K and there are a few reasons for this.

1. Agents and editors cringe when they get big, fat first novels. The very thought of trying to get through it may mean you get read later than something shorter. It's a psychological thing, but with a real effect.

2. Paper costs money. A very long first novel is a riskier bet financially than a shorter one. If I am a publisher paying $5K for a first SF novel and my choice is one that costs .54 to print or one that costs .65 to print, and all other elements are pretty even, I'm going for the one that offers me a greater profit margin.

3. Shelf space and rack pockets cost money. The average sell-through on a paperback book is around 50%, often less. I'm the buyer for a large chain of drugstores. I have 50 pockets to fill in every store. I am presented with two books. One of these books is a first romance novel that is 150,000 words and I can fit three in one pocket. Another is a first romance novel that is 90,000 words and I can fit five in each pocket. Publishers are aware of this, which is why if you look at a publisher's catalogue, it always lists trim size and page length. They know that they have a better bet of making money publishing the shorter book, because more books will fit in the pockets at wholesale accounts or in one faced-out spot at B&N. Accounts generally will not buy more copies of a first novel than will fit in one pocket or one spot, unless there is a publisher incentive to do so, e.g., co-op.

4. Back to paper costs money. Think about print size. You want your book printed 8 over 9? If you don't know, that means 8 point type on 9 points of leading. Most paperback books today are 9/10, maybe 10/11, because paper costs money. Smaller print means fewer pages. Fewer pages means less money to print. Write a really long book and you can bet your type will be smaller. If you think readers don't skip books with tiny type, you have very good eyes. There is a reason the large-print business is booming. There is a point where a publisher says, we need this to be 288 pages to charge $7.99. Or 352 or whatever. If your book will go to that length and can be set 10/11 you are better off than it needing to be set 9/10 to get to the right length. You will lose sales if your type is too small. Now, you can't control this at the publisher any other way than keeping your length reasonable.

5. Rights. That super-long book will have less of a chance to be sold in other versions. Translation costs are often by the page. Longer books cost more to translate, which often means fewer foreign deals. Longer books cost more to record as audios, which means you have less of a chance of selling audio. And large print? Fuggetaboutit! Paper costs money, which is why there are abridged large print books.

But, wait, you're the next Herman Melville? Charles Dickens? Tom Wolfe? Go for it. Because if you are, then all the rules can be broken. But you better have the skills if you are going to break those rules.

If I were going to sit down and write a novel today, I'd look at the market I'm aiming for and I'd write to that market. If I get established, I'd go a bit longer, then maybe longer, if I need to, but don't write a long book just because you like run-on sentences.

Publishing is a business. And it is bad business to not give the customer--in this case agents and editors--what they want or need.

Z

All publishers give word count guidelines. Short is anything less than the minimum word count, and long is anything over, usually with a five thousand word leeway in each direction, but they all have guidelines, and it's not a good idea to urge writers to write shorter than 100K just because it's SF&F, or mystery, or anything else.

100K is average in most of these genres, but even this doesn't matter. If the publishers word count guidelines say 80-120K, they mean it, and those guidelines are there for new writers. Writers should simply follow them.

If a writer can't find the guidelines, it's still very easy to several first novels that publisher has released, and check word count therein.

And sometimes a massive first novel does manage to sell.

[jaksen]

If I'd have followed length guidelines, I'd not have sold any of my stories. (I write short fiction.) So in my case, ignorance = blissfulness.

I would have either never submitted, or tried to shorten my stories to 'acceptable length' and made a mess of them.

Following publisher's guidelines? Yes, you probably should. But you also need to write a good novel, short story or whatever first. And if you've edited the crap out of it to get it down to whatever magic number you think you need (80K? 100K?) then you might ruin what you've written.

jmho

[HobbitTon]

Who cares how long it is as long as people buy it, right? :D

The publisher still needs to print it. More words = more pages.

[ChaosTitan]

trying to use the 250 per page word count method but my WIP seems to average out at about 305 words a page in standard form. is this going to make my life more difficult in the end?

Unless you're using a typewriter, just use the Word Count feature in your writing program to get your word count. The 250/page thing is rarely used anymore.


And check the dates, folks. You're replying to posts that are more than 3 years old. ;)

[maestrowork]

The publisher still needs to print it. More words = more pages.

With eBooks it's becoming less and less an issue. :)

[shaldna]

I would have said it was far lower than 100k. Large type and pictures take up a lot of space, and I think it's MG rather than YA. It was shelved in the 8-12 section in my local Waterstone's.

Didn't waterstones also shelve that novel about a serial killer in the 8-12 section?