First or Third?

[Rebsin]

When writing a short story, which is more effective to use; first person or third person? Does it depend on what the story is about or how much of the character you want your reader to know?

[maestrowork]

Generally speaking, third person, past tense.

Of course, in reality, anything is possible. It depends on your story. If your story is more personal in nature, then first person. If you don't mind the readers to be somewhat detached from it, then third.

[pixie juice]

right... and you have to consider whether or not you want to have access to the other character's thoughts - in first person, you cannot - third can.

[Jamesaritchie]

Neither is more effective, they're simply a bit different, and not very different at that. First person and third person limited are almost identical writing forms. First just brings the reader and the protagonist closer to each other.

Some genres, mystery and westerns inparticular, are extremely well-suited to first person, while others, romance novels and fantasy novels, are less well-suited.

Which to use is often a matter of which you most enjoy reading, and of whether or not you want to write a multiple viewpoint or single viewpoint novel.

And it's always possible to blend first and third. A number of very successful novels have alternated chapters with first and third person, so multiple viewpoint could be used.

But it really is a personal choice, and neither is more effective than the other.

[RichMar]

Everybody's right on this one. I write a lot of humor, so first person tends to dominate. I think if I wrote a mystery I'd go with third--that's just what I'd feel at home with. I'd go back to first on tragedy--just me.

[veingloree]

In most genres third has the advantage of being more common and so more easily accepted by readers. But I have written and sold stories in first.

[Jamesaritchie]

Most readers accept first person just as readily as they accept third person. It's editors who have trouble accepting first person from new writers because it's so hard for a new writer to do well.

But the list of first person novels that readers have loved is extremely long. Especially in mystery (Just about all hardboiled mysteries are first person) and western, but all genres have first person novels that are considered classics.

[maestrowork]

Many literary novels are written in first person, too. I was just talking about the Great Gatsby -- and the first-person wasn't even the protagonist. Talk about degree of difficulty. But when it works, it works.

[Maryn]

I have a peculiar fondness for authors who dare to make the POV character someone other than the protagonist or antagonist. It's got to be tough!

[Jamesaritchie]

All the Sherlock Holmes stories are written in first person, but with Dr. Watson as the viewpoint character. It's a great idea, if you can pull it off. It keeps the story immediate, but also means you don't have to reveal anything the protagonist is thinking or knows to the reader. Only what the viewpoint character knows must be revealed.

[zerohour21]

I've written stories both ways, with first person and with third person. Never had the first person narrator not be the protagonist though, and in all my stories, at leats most of it is told from the point of view of the protagonist. It's all a matter of what you're more comfortable writing, I guess. Mystery stories are for the most part written in first person, but they could be done in third person. I don't think that first or third person is anymore personal; first person means that the person is just reflecting and telling what happened to him. If you do a good enough job wth characterization and depicting the protagonists thoughts and emotions throughout the story, you could definitely make him or her someone that the reader will feel for, love, and care about. Again, I guess it's all a matter of how you look at it. Me, personally, I have an easier time writing in third person (reading could go either way), though some stories I have chosen to do first person; its all a matter of what the story is and which narrative style I feel would suit it better for whatever reason. What's really awkward is writing in first person present tense, but that's only because I am used to writing in past tense (I only have done the present tense thing in a couple stories anyway). So essentially what I am saying is that you should go with whatever works for you.

[annied]

I agree with zerohour. It depends on which POV you feel comfortable in and which one is better for that particular story.

I've written short stories in both first and third. When I use first-person POV, the story is of a more personal topic. But there are times when third person is better.

Either one can work, and one isn't "better" than the other.

Annie

[maestrowork]

POV is a device to draw the readers into your story. You can even mix them in the same story. If you have created that "dream state" for the readers, you've succeeded.

[NickolausPacione]

I use a bit of both, then one thing you don't hear about much is one called the second person. This new story I am working on relies on a little bit of both the first and third person because it has descriptive elements. One thing about descriptive horror is use a lot of first person stylings.

[preyer]

i read somewhere once that editors consider most first-person as amateurish. while totally not agreeing with this, it did make me wonder if most new/first-time writers tend to write in first as opposed to third person?

i do think first person on average lends itself to a much more intimate story. sorry, there's just a difference between 'me' and 'i' rather than 'him' and they.' i feel that simply by using different pronouns makes a difference even if the story remains basically the same. third person is a bit more stand-offish. there's also a different descriptive pattern, for lack of a better word at eight in the morning. but, if all you did was change the pronouns from 'his' to 'my,' you're going to feel cheated because the character has no soul.

i'd be careful switching pov's. as a reader, i don't think i'd appreciate going back and forth every other chapter. it's just gimmicky and distracting to me for the most part. if some great literary master pulls it off, cool... that's why they're great literary masters. but something like that i feel has to be a superlative work: anything lackluster that would fail even had it stuck to one way is going to be awful otherwise.

i think there should be one caveat about writing in first person: seeing the word 'i' a hundred times a page gets old. real fast.

[maestrowork]

i read somewhere once that editors consider most first-person as amateurish.

Then these editors should eventually lose their jobs...

Get real. Many authors (including Hemingway, Stephen King, etc.) write in first person, and many classic novels are written in first person. There's nothing amateur about that. It's simply a different POV.

The problem with novice writers is not that they write in first person, but they've used a wrong or less effective POV for their story. They'd use an introspective, personal, intimate story in 3rd person, or a large-cast epic in first person... Also, they use the "I" word too often, especially in this way: "I saw," "I heard," "I sensed," "I smelled..."

[preyer]

and i'm sure that's what that statement meant in spirit, because to dimiss out-of-hand first person isn't just ignorant, it's stupid. at the same time, were i an editor and flip through a manuscript and pick out 50 'i's' per page, it's going straight to the bottom of the newbie pile. so from that standpoint, i can see their view and have to agree with the editors. were i able to choose a random page and pick out amateurish writing, and do that again elsewhere, i probably wouldn't invest my time in reading it, at least right away. were i an editor, i'd be pissed off that an agent would even send me something like that.

like you said, i think there's appropriate pov and some that's experimental. the experimental may be a better story than everything else sitting on an editor's desk, but a lot people don't seem to grasp the editor's main function is to make sure things get published that makes money, no?

[maestrowork]

Amateur writing is amateur writing. It doesn't matter what POVs the writer uses. There are worse things than too many I's. And a seasoned editor can pick those out with a quick glance.

[preyer]

i think the misconception with new writers may be that they can somehow use first person to conceal their inexperience, particularly with descriptions. if you feel the need to use a pov as a crutch, that's almost invariably going to done with first, don't you think?

[veingloree]

I think a lot of new writers use 1st person, presetn tense simply because it never occurs to them to do anything else.

[Jamesaritchie]

There are worse things than using "I" too often, but this is still a serious flaw that causes automatic rejection. Yes, experienced editors will notice when a writer uises "I" too often, an dthis experienced editor will then reject the writing. You can't simply go through a story an pencil out every excess I. It doesn't work. It all needs rewritten completely, and editors aren't looking for stories that need complete rewrites.

For whatever reason, many new writers seem to think first person is the easiest and most natural way to write. It may be, but it's still the hardest form of writing for a new writer to do well. Third person is much easier for new writers to handle because it avoids many of the pitfalls first person presents.

Internalization and introspection can be good things, but new writers almost always go greatly overboard in these areas with first person writing. It makes for bad reading.

New writers also seem to forget that the story happens outside the character, and the world exists outside the character. Another bad thing.

Does this mean new writers should try first person writing? No, of course not. But a new writer should be aware that first person is much tougher to write well than third person, and that there are many pitfalls. New writers should be aware that Harlequin and Silhouette romance novels are never written in first person, and that fantasy novels seldom are. New writers should also be aware that many very, very good editors simply do not like first person writing, and will reject it.

Now, I love first person writing. I've sold seven novels and close to fifty short stories that were all written in first person. It's fine to write in first person, but not because it seems easier and more natural. Good first person is a much more advanced form of writing than third person, and darned few new writers come close to getting it right.

[HollyB]

As a new writer, I'm hopelessly naive, but many of the short stories I've written have been in first person, because the story came into my head in a first person POV. I think short stories are a great way to explore POV. I suppose I could rewrite a few of them in third person and see how the story changes.

(As a contrast, all of my novels have been in third person.)

[maestrowork]

I'd still say bad writing is bad writing and there are many ways to tell -- and a seasoned editor would be able to pick them out. Maybe it's too many I's or whatever. But most often problems such as "too many I's" are just part of the over all problem with the writing -- too much introspection and exposition, too much filtering ("I see" or "I feel") and not enough details to draw the readers in... poor character development, weak plot, etc.

I still don't quite understand why so many people say they won't read a 1st person novel... to me, that seems quite biased and judgmental... surely there are LOTS of fantastic novels writting in first person. For example, Chang-rae Lee's Aloft is beautifully written, in first person.

[Jamesaritchie]

First person novels sell extremly well, particular in series. And a number of classic novels were in first person, ranging from "Moby Dick" up to "Catcher In the Rye."

In the western and mystery genres, first person novels are extremely common, and sell like mad.

So there's nothing at all wrong with writing in first person, it's just that new writers seldom do it well. It is more difficult to write first person well than to write third person well, so editors in most genres want first person from more experienced writers.

And first person just doesn't fit some genres very well. Romance and fantasy in particular.

But, yes, there are umpteen million first person novels out there that are wonderfully written and that regularly hit the best-seller lists.

New writers just need to understand that first person is very, very difficult to write well, and that most editors, and most readers, prefer third person, past tense.

I do think it's really silly when a reader says he or she won't read a first person novel. This tells me more about the reader than about the novel.

Writing in first person is a fine idea, as long as the pitfalls are known, and as long as the writer understands it may look easier than third person, but it's really far more difficult. And as long as the writer understand that it just isn't going to sell in a couple of genres.

[annied]

I've written in both 1st and 3rd person, depending on what works. Sometimes I get stuck writing something, but when I change the POV, it improves it.

I've tried writing a 1st person fantasy (from the viewpoint of a barmaid who becomes one the most powerful mages of her generation). The draft was okay, but I always had to remind myself that her POV was limited to what SHE could see, do, hear, etc. Okay, she was a mindreader, too, but 1st person POV still applied.


So yeah, it's more difficult to write in 1st person, but it doesn't mean you can't do it well. 3rd person is more common and easier when you have multiple plot threads and locations.

Annie:)