I had to share this craziness.

[yesandno]

While researching the anti-vaccination trend, I came across the following. It was so wacky that I had to share it with others who have an interest in science fact. Do you have similar things you've run across? Outrageous misrepresentations of scientific ideas? Please share!

http://www.vaclib.org/letters/Attack...ous-agents.doc

Attacking The DNA With Infectious Agents

It is said in the bible that in the last days the children will be able to communicate with God like no other generation has ever done and do great humanitarian things.

We have one common enemy that is doing all that they can to eliminate these children and Adults. They are using a concept and technique that has been very effective, to the point that it is attacking the DNA with infectious agents. The lethal mix of infectious agents are being injected directly into the blood stream of new born babies, children and adults and in the process these agents are altering the DNA thus breaking the connection to GOD.

The DNA is an essential component of all living matter. It is very personal, for it contains the encoded information relative to both one’s physical and spiritual lineage. This information determines a person’s physical form, hereditary maladies, mental proclivities, emotional behavioral patterns, SPIRITUAL GIFTS, and more. DNA contains the blueprint for one’s life purpose and divine potentialities. It defines who we are! Until now, this stored information has been inaccessible to us save initiates of mystery schools, spiritual masters, and holy persons dedicated to serving the light.

Our human form is composed of 12 physical strands of DNA and 12 corresponding spiritual strands totaling 24 strands. The average person has only 1 strand activated, which accounts for limited brain use in humans.

I know that all Indigo people have many strands of DNA activated, and as they get closer to GOD more strands will activate so that their purpose in life can be fulfilled.

So what is this infectious lethal mix? You guessed it. It is Vaccinations.

[JoNightshade]

::Bangs head on keyboard::

You know, last night we were watching Heroes, the show. My husband said, "You know, I realize that this show isn't even pretending to be scientifically accurate, but I'm actually kind of worried that people are going to get these weird ideas about the human genome project from watching this."

I said, "Oh, come on. People aren't THAT stupid."

I stand corrected.

[Siddow]

Wow.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Heinlein said it best: "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."

It will always manage to exceed your expectations.

[RumpleTumbler]

How can I activate all my strands? Is it a number you dial? Do I have to fill out an application?

[Siddow]

How can I activate all my strands? Is it a number you dial? Do I have to fill out an application?

You need a time machine, so you can go back to your birth, and also a mind-control unit, so you can make your parents refuse to have you immunized, and then you need a virus shield, to keep you from dying from rubella, and then you meditate.

[RumpleTumbler]

You need a time machine, so you can go back to your birth, and also a mind-control unit, so you can make your parents refuse to have you immunized, and then you need a virus shield, to keep you from dying from rubella, and then you meditate.

I've had a flu shot like 5 years in a row. Does that mean I can't have one this year? What if I drain all the blood out of my body and put in clean blood?

[JoNightshade]

I met someone the other day who didn't "believe" in vaccinations. She was torn because she wanted to go to Uganda but didn't want to get vaccinated for all the diseases you can contract over there. We were in a group of girls and everyone just sort of fell silent. Then, I feel a little bad about this, we kinda ganged up on her with the attitude of "how stupid can you be?" She told us her reasons why she didn't believe vaccinations were good, and each one was totally illogical and instantly eliminated with a little dose of common sense. Example:

"Well, why should I inject my body with this stuff before I've even contracted the disease? I mean, maybe if I GOT hepatitis, then I would get vaccinated."

Me: "You do realize it DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. Once you get it, you've GOT it, and a vaccination doesn't do squat to get rid of it."

"Oh..."

[Ali B]

"Indigo people"? What does he mean by that?

[JoNightshade]

"Indigo people"? What does he mean by that?

Google it. You will find more craziness.

[Ali B]

Ah, indigo people:http://www.psyking.net/id218.htm

[MidnightMuse]

Wow.

Just - wow. And don't even get me started about putting God in a box that small.

Just. Wow.

[Mandy-Jane]

You know guys, the subject of Indigo Children is not craziness. Just because it's something you may not have heard of before or that doesn't fit in with your own beliefs, it's not fair to call it craziness.

[benbradley]

Location of the article (thank you google):
http://www.vaclib.org/letters/AttackingDNAwith-infectious-agents.doc
exactly who and what these people are:
http://www.vaclib.org/
I've heard "conspiracy theory" stuff about vaccines for over a decade (having been involved with 'new-age' friends, and seen a couple of 60-Minutes style TV reports), how vaccines are made with mercury, and how the rate of autism has gone up with the use of vaccines, and who knows what else. And maybe some of that is even true, but...

But I recall at a very young age, like 3 or 5, after a doctors visit going to this place where they gave each of us in the family a sugar cube with some medicine on it, it having something to do with polio and what a wonderful thing it was. I've since heard more about polio, and I can understand that emotion.

There may be a point where more of these diseases are declared eradicated and vaccines for them will no longer need to be administered, but until then the cost-benefit ratio looks good to me.

[Ordinary_Guy]

You know guys, the subject of Indigo Children is not craziness. Just because it's something you may not have heard of before or that doesn't fit in with your own beliefs, it's not fair to call it craziness.
You have a magnificent and admirable sense of tolerance... but there is a point where "crazy" really does apply. This is it.

The science and theory behind vaccinations is not based on "belief" – it has evidence reinforcing that it works (to the point that not engaging the process in the face of potentially epidemic health threats becomes criminally negligent).

The place of belief in policy-making is a great topic, still raging in the news. Think about how people are trying to define where "life begins" and legislate pro-life beliefs. The Indigo folk reaching for a high midichlorian count (or whatever) falls into the same category.

...But that would deserve another thread. As for this anti-vaccination bit...? Definitely crazy. That's not to say there aren't vaccination goofs (and sometimes worse), but as a general practice, it's a good thing.

Heck, if we get right down to it, the original thought of vaccinations attacking DNA is inaccurate to begin with. The vaccination allows the body exposure to a weakened target and to build up a natural resistance at a bacterial or viral level. Biiiiiiiiig jump between vaccinating and recombinant genetics. Should be a sign somebody isn't firing on all cylinders.

Not to mention selective all-caps of key words; as in: like, oh my GOD! I can't believe they're screwing with my GIFTS! Like, my STRANDS are f'd up! I so feel like I've just been given a SPIRITUAL NOOGIE!

Call me cynical.

[waylander]

You know guys, the subject of Indigo Children is not craziness. Just because it's something you may not have heard of before or that doesn't fit in with your own beliefs, it's not fair to call it craziness.

It's when it goes against established fact that it is craziness and stupidity

[oscuridad]

I had heard of Indigo Children before - but didn't realise it was quite such a bonkers idea. This is just typical bandwagon jumping, for there are, of course, small risks involved in vaccinations and this just takes a kernel of truth and uses it to give credence to its own absurdity. Just like many Religions...
(runs and hides).

[ChunkyC]

Other outrageous misrepresentations of scientific facts: I had an acquaintance tell me the second law of thermodynamics makes evolution impossible.

How so, I says?

He says, entropy! Since there's a finite amount of energy in a system, there's no way life on Earth would have gotten more complicated, it would have gotten less complicated over time as the finite energy on Earth spread out evenly!

I says, hate to tell you buddy, but that's in a closed system. The Earth is not a closed system. See that yellow thing in the sky pouring out enough energy for you to feel it as heat on your skin from 93 million miles away?

He doesn't talk to me about this sort of stuff anymore. :)

[Perks]

Ah, yes. The Indigo Children. My daughter was labeled as such by a very odd man. What a concept.

[Perks]

Although, speaking of craziness, explain this to me - both my children seem to read my mind. And I don't mean just intuit when I'm angry. That's not really a skill as simply the ability to feel heat and see smoke. I mean, I'll be thinking about something at random and they'll start talking about it. The eldest, no so much anymore, but the youngest, well, it's just weird.

For example, a couple of weeks ago, I took them for ice cream. The ice cream shop is in a shopping center under development and we hadn't been in a while. I noticed that a dress shop had gone in next door. I looked at the sign and my daughter said 'sizzle'. Of course, that's the name of the shop. My youngest daughter can't read and my oldest hadn't looked up from her book yet. No one had said a word until the baby said, 'sizzle'.

I asked her why she said that and she said she didn't know. She does this sort of thing regularly.

What is that?

[Sassee]

:Wha:

[Mel]

Agree with you, Sassee.

[Shwebb]

Could the logo have looked familiar, say, from a commercial?

Yeah--on one hand, the vaccination conspiracy thing is out there IMO, but sometimes I wonder if we don't discount too much out of hand because we don't have direct evidence of it. Like Perk's daughter.

I wish my kids would read my mind a bit more--no, scratch that. I just wish they'd mind more.

[Sassee]

Don't get me wrong, I'm open to new ideas and things that "aren't normal." But... this... it just... I can't... it makes no sense!

[kdnxdr]

I'm not into the who indigo thing or the conspiracy about immunizations. However, there is a raging debate about whether the mercury that has been used to concoct the immunizations that shchool children are given has been going strong. I read something the other day that was a recent report out of Canada that mercury being used in immunizations was not the cause of the autism epidemic.

I don't understand because I thought ingesting mercury was bad for humans. Also, pregnant women are told not to eat tuna because of mercury and what it can do to the baby.

[brokenfingers]

Hold up, folks. I looked into this Indigo thing and I wouldn’t be so quick to condemn it. I found a list of the Adult Indigo Characteristics here (http://www.metagifted.org/topics/metagifted/indigo/adultIndigos/areYouAnAdultIndigo.html) and I must admit – it IS intriguing. I suggest you all compare yourselves to this list. You might be surprised.

Indigo Adult Characteristics

Are intelligent, though may not have had top grades.

Yup. Actually I had top grades all through school until I sprouted hair in places other than my head. Then, for some odd reason, my priorities shifted and I craved experience over knowledge. Even then I would often anger teachers cuz I’d miss half the school year and then come in and ace a test – when I remembered, that is.

Are very creative and enjoy making things.

Wow. Right on the money. Even my boss says I come up with the most creative excuses and I’m always making a mess.

Always need to know WHY, especially why they are being asked to do something.
True again. I wonder why?

Had disgust and perhaps loathing for much of the required and repetitious work in school.

It’s like they KNOW me!

Were rebellious in school in that they refused to do homework and rejected authority of teachers, OR seriously wanted to rebel, but didn't DARE, usually due to parental pressure.

Holy cow! See point number one! Not to mention, I went to three different high schools due to being asked to leave the first two prestigious ones. My last one was a humdrum local one in Brooklyn that didn’t have such high-falutin’ expectations. Or should I say – it was a more Indigo school.

May have experienced early existential depression and feelings of helplessness. These may have ranged from sadness to utter despair.

Yes, I was singular in the fact that I felt angst as a teenager.

Have difficulty in service-oriented jobs. Indigos resist authority and caste system of employment.

This is just uncanny. I tried being a waiter once, a loooong time ago. I discovered that my natural tendency to tell it like it is was NOT conducive to a career in waitering. Though I did enjoy being a bartender. At least there I could evict people from the premises when they became annoying.

I feel so much better finally knowing myself. Next time my boss asks me why I can’t just follow orders like the rest of the crew, I’ll be able to proudly hold my head high and say “I’m INDIGO!”

Prefer leadership positions or working alone to team positions.

Again, uncanny. I mean, most normal people like being told what to do by some clueless asshole, but not me – I’m INDIGO!

Have deep empathy for others, yet an intolerance of stupidity.

That’s me all over: Sensitive Soul, Rotten Bastard.

May be extremely emotionally sensitive including crying at the drop of a hat (no shielding) Or may be the opposite and show no expression of emotion (full shielding).

Yes! Yes! I cried when the Jets lost their last shot at the Super Bowl! And yet, paradoxically, I felt nothing when Paris went to jail. Uncanny, I tell you.

May have trouble with RAGE.

Oh my God. Have you even tried that game?! It’s freaky hard! See if you have trouble with it here (http://www.crazymonkeygames.com/Rage.html), you might be an INDIGO too!

Have trouble with systems they consider broken or ineffective, ie. political, educational, medical, and legal.

Sigh. I’m almost in tears here over the fact that I finally know what I am. And all this time I thought there was something wrong with me cuz I had problems with our current world situation, political system, school system etc. I felt so abnormal and out of tune with the rest of the country. Phew!

Alienation from or anger with politics - feeling your voice won't count and/or that the outcome really doesn't mattter.

OK, this one isn’t so on the money since I know my voice DOES count - as long as I can come up with enough money and hire a lobbyist or go the direct route and deposit the money directly into my local politician’s “war chest.” But I still identify with this point.

Frustration with or rejection of the traditional American dream - 9-5 career, marriage, 2.5 children, house with white picket fence, etc.

Why can’t my mom understand that the reason I’m not married like the rest of my siblings is because I’m INDIGO!

Anger at rights being taken away, fear and/or fury at "Big Brother watching you."

Totally. I’m still pissed at getting a ticket from that damn traffic light camera. And that little peephole staring at me when I use the ATM is just creepy!

Have a burning desire to do something to change and improve the world. May be stymied what to do. May have trouble identifying their path.

So true. Yet I plod on, walking that road every day.

Have psychic or spiritual interest appear fairly young - in or before teen years.

Yes, I often wished I knew what the hell my mom was thinking, when I was young.

Had few if any Indigo role models. Having had some doesn't mean you're not an indigo, though.

I didn’t have any – well, except for the Blue Man Group.

Have strong intuition.

Again – so, so true. How many times has my spidey sense helped me avert disaster in a bar? Especially at closing time?

One thing though. Too many shots can dull one’s “intuition.” Just saying…

Random behavior pattern or mind style - (symptoms of Attention Deficit Disorder). May have trouble focusing on assigned tasks, may jump around in conversations.

My WIP is proof of this.

Have had psychic experiences, such as premonitions, seeing angels or ghosts, out of body experiences, hearing voices.

Yes! Yes! I have premonitions all the time. The latest was when I saw those blue/red lights behind me – I knew no good would come of it.

And how many times have I heard that little voice in my head say things like, “I don’t know Bill, this might not be such a good idea…”

As for Out-Of-Body experiences, all I can say is:

1992 - Yuma, Arizona - peyote.

May be electrically sensitive such as watches not working and street lights going out as you move under them, electrical equipment malfunctioning and lights blowing out.

How crazy is that! My light bulb just went out yesterday!

May have awareness of other dimensions and parallel realities.

The last desk job I had, I was constantly being transported to another dimension and alternate realities.

Sexually are very expressive and inventive OR may reject sexuality in boredom or with intention of achieving higher spiritual connection. May explore alternative types of sexuality.

Yes to A and B. No to C.

Seek meaning to their life and understanding about the world May seek this through religion or spirituality, spiritual groups and books, self-help groups and books.

I’ve got AW.

When they find balance they may become very strong, healthy, happy individuals.

Waitaminute. Are they saying I’m unbalanced?

[yesandno]

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

Above is the link to the FDAs very helpful information about thimerosal (the mercury-containing preservative in vaccinations).

Especially helpful is the chart detailing which vaccines contain or USED TO contain thimerosal.

Ummm. About the Indigo children/adults thing. I don't really care if people want to classify themselves as different spiritually, but combining their notions inaccurately with scientific facts like DNA and the value of vaccinations makes them seem like charlatans to me. As if bringing science into it makes their claims seem more legitimate somehow.

[kdnxdr]

yesandno, thank you for the link, it definately was helpful information. It seems, after gleening through the information, that there is still an unresolved issue with the mercury/immunizations. Also, the article indicates that the mercury is still used even with the unresolved issue of of malformity in the cognitive/speech development of unborn children.

If every one in 166 children have some form of the autistic spectrum, those children will probably grow up to be adults with some form ofthe autistic spectrum, most not able to function on their own and many will become state dependant and incapable of being self sufficient.

[Haphazard]

"Were rebellious in school in that they refused to do homework and rejected authority of teachers, OR seriously wanted to rebel, but didn't DARE, usually due to parental pressure."

Pfft. I do my homework with the knowledge of this, too, shall pass, and I like to get to know my teachers as people, if possible. They're people too, damn it, and I refuse to believe that just because they're the one lecturing at the front of the classroom when I'm in a seat that they're unreachable. Hating homework is a universal trait, I really can't think of anybody that would do it by choice.

My friend coaxed me into some very strange out of body experiences, and I can honestly say that something happened. But I can't be indigo -- my friend said my aura was yellow.

Anyway, back on topic here -- I remember my biology teacher didn't want to get his kids a lot of vaccinations because of the stuff about it causing autism, which I'm not sure is true and isn't really too crazy, but this... this is just...

No. Just no. Even if that were true, human life now takes precedence over spiritual connection.

[yesandno]

That's interesting. I got entirely different info from the webpage.

"In 2004, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee issued its final report, examining the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the MMR vaccines and thimerosal containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. In this report, the committee incorporated new epidemiological evidence from the U.S., Denmark, Sweden, and the United Kingdom, and studies of biologic mechanisms related to vaccines and autism since its report in 2001. The committee concluded that this body of evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, and that hypotheses generated to date concerning a biological mechanism for such causality are theoretical only. Further, the committee stated that the benefits of vaccination are proven and the hypothesis of susceptible populations is presently speculative, and that widespread rejection of vaccines would lead to increases in incidences of serious infectious diseases like measles, whooping cough and Hib bacterial meningitis."

Also, it seems that there are thimerosal-free options available for most vaccines.

It is also important to note that thimerosal breaks down into ethylmercury rather than methylmercury (the mercury found in fish, etc.) Here is a helpful passage regarding the elimination of ethylmercury (thimerosal) from infants:

"One final piece of data regarding thimerosal is worth noting. At the initial National Vaccine Advisory Committee-sponsored meeting on thimerosal in 1999, concerns were expressed that infants may lack the ability to eliminate mercury. More recent NIAID-supported studies at the University of Rochester and National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, MD examined levels of mercury in blood and other samples from infants who had received routine immunizations with thimerosal-containing vaccines. [Pichichero ME, et al. Lancet 360:1737-1741 (2002)] Blood levels of mercury did not exceed safety guidelines for methyl mercury for all infants in these studies. Further, mercury was cleared from the blood in infants exposed to thimerosal faster than would be predicted for methyl mercury; infants excreted significant amounts of mercury in stool after thimerosal exposure, thus removing mercury from their bodies. These results suggest that there are differences in the way that thimerosal and methyl mercury are distributed, metabolized, and excreted. Thimerosal appears to be removed from the blood and body more rapidly than methyl mercury. NIAID is sponsoring a follow-up study with larger numbers of infants in Buenos Aires where thimerosal-containing vaccines are still administered to children."

*I want to say that the above does not eliminate the possibility that ethylmercury might be toxic in a different way than methylmercury. They don't mention that possibility, really, but it should be clarified.

[Mandy-Jane]

It's when it goes against established fact that it is craziness and stupidity

How does it go against established fact?

Just so you all know, I'm not disputing the anti-vaccination argument; just the Indigo "craziness" theme that you all seem to be following. Come on. Where's your open-mindedness?

[Shwebb]

It does seem as if the autism/vaccination thing is tenuous, at best--if, at all. But if I were a mother of an autistic child, I'd be looking for connections anywhere that might spare another child his/her health.

That being said, I do know of a family whose child did have a severe allergic reaction to his vaccinations, and he ended up with brain damage. But that's another kettle of fish.

I don't mind if someone wants to believe something different than what I do. However, the whole DNA-altering thing is a bit far-fetched. If I were part of that Indigo thing, I'd be embarrassed about my group being linked to it.

I got my own kids vaccinated. Other than the occasional fever that evening, they seem to be unchanged from the day before. I think their strands are intact. ;)

[yesandno]

"Our human form is composed of 12 physical strands of DNA and 12 corresponding spiritual strands totaling 24 strands. The average person has only 1 strand activated, which accounts for limited brain use in humans."

This is where it goes against established fact, IMO: DNA is composed of 2 strands. If they are misinterpreting or misrepresenting chromosomes for strands, it is still wrong, as we have 23 pairs of chromosomes--totaling 46. If they are misinterpreting or misrepresenting "junk" DNA as the one strand that is activated, it is still wrong, as "junk" DNA occurs all amongst other coding DNA. (Also, it is now thought that "junk" DNA may not be as inactive as was once thought.) Finally, it is not actual fact that humans have limited brain use. Here is the link to the Snopes take on that urban legend: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp

As I said above, I don't have a problem with Indigo people classifying themselves as different somehow. But the science is just nonsense.

[oscuridad]

different kind of mercury - if you know what I mean. AS for kids reading minds - I am afraid they just pick up loads of stuff without you realising it and then they just say it - and sometimes just at a moment that makes you think 'whoa...' occams razor and all that...

[Haphazard]

All I'm saying is that Indigo characteristics are very common. I don't mind if people want to be classified as 'indigo' or not, I'm just saying that if you asked my Academic stretch class those questions, half of them would be classified as 'indigo,' probably along with the teacher.

[ChaosTitan]

yesandno, can you please post a link to your source for this article? If this is copywritten material, rather than something you wrote yourself, you need alter your original post to reflect that.

While researching the anti-vaccination trend, I came across the following. It was so wacky that I had to share it with others who have an interest in science fact. Do you have similar things you've run across? Outrageous misrepresentations of scientific ideas? Please share!

Attacking The DNA With Infectious Agents

It is said in the bible that in the last days the children will be able to communicate with God like no other generation has ever done and do great humanitarian things.

We have one common enemy that is doing all that they can to eliminate these children and Adults. They are using a concept and technique that has been very effective, to the point that it is attacking the DNA with infectious agents. The lethal mix of infectious agents are being injected directly into the blood stream of new born babies, children and adults and in the process these agents are altering the DNA thus breaking the connection to GOD.

The DNA is an essential component of all living matter. It is very personal, for it contains the encoded information relative to both one’s physical and spiritual lineage. This information determines a person’s physical form, hereditary maladies, mental proclivities, emotional behavioral patterns, SPIRITUAL GIFTS, and more. DNA contains the blueprint for one’s life purpose and divine potentialities. It defines who we are! Until now, this stored information has been inaccessible to us save initiates of mystery schools, spiritual masters, and holy persons dedicated to serving the light.

Our human form is composed of 12 physical strands of DNA and 12 corresponding spiritual strands totaling 24 strands. The average person has only 1 strand activated, which accounts for limited brain use in humans.

I know that all Indigo people have many strands of DNA activated, and as they get closer to GOD more strands will activate so that their purpose in life can be fulfilled.

So what is this infectious lethal mix? You guessed it. It is Vaccinations.

[yesandno]

I went back and posted a link. In its original form, there is no copyright info--no author, etc.

If this is somehow going to cause problems, feel free to delete this.

[ChaosTitan]

Thanks for adding the link. :) Shouldn't cause problems at all, it's been an interesting (and civil) discussion.

[waylander]

How does it go against established fact?

Just so you all know, I'm not disputing the anti-vaccination argument; just the Indigo "craziness" theme that you all seem to be following. Come on. Where's your open-mindedness?

Faced with such wilful disregard for established science my open-mindedness quietly packs up and goes down the pub.
If you look at my profile you will see that I am a scientific researcher and thus part of the global conspiracy against these talented mavericks.
Or just does not suffer fools gladly - take your pick

[Mandy-Jane]

Faced with such wilful disregard for established science my open-mindedness quietly packs up and goes down the pub.
If you look at my profile you will see that I am a scientific researcher and thus part of the global conspiracy against these talented mavericks.
Or just does not suffer fools gladly - take your pick

I don't have a huge amount of faith in science or scientific research.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I don't have a huge amount of faith in science or scientific research.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm on waylander's side.

Perhaps it's my fever talking-- but could you please elaborate on this. I don't see scientific research as a matter of faith at all. At base it's about saying: "This theory says a heavy object falls faster than a light one. This one says they fall at the same speed. Let's try dropping two objects to find out which one is right. We'll try more than once just to be on the safe side."

[Mandy-Jane]

I'm not saying that there's no place for scientific research. I'm just saying that on this issue, it doesn't all have to go back to science. Science is not the answer for everything.

[waylander]

I don't have a huge amount of faith in science or scientific research.

And yet you are surrounded by evidence of its efficacy.
You typed this message on a computer and displayed it to the world by the internet; both products of scientific research.

[Mandy-Jane]

And yet you are surrounded by evidence of its efficacy.
You typed this message on a computer and displayed it to the world by the internet; both products of scientific research.

So? Doesn't mean I can't use science to my own advantage. I still don't have to agree with everything it says.

[DocBrown]

Wow, this thread is the first I have heard of "Indigo people". Everything I have read sounds like glorified (or maybe not so glorified) Astrology. I suppose if you have an open mind about that silliness then you can have an open mind about being "Indigo". (I am, apparently, Indigo by the way, but then I suspect many people are.)

Mary-Jane is right in that she doesn't have to agree with everything science says, but I would certainly hope that she can admit that anything that goes through the *proper* scientific channels goes through much greater scrutiny than any of this "Indigo" stuff.

One of the nice things about the scientific method is that it requires us to demonstrate that scientific results are replicable. I'd love to see any of these people touting "Indigo-ness" as a part of reality to come up with some sort of hypothesis (and I mean anything that's not tautological) about "Indigo people" and demonstrate some sort of confirmation/refutation about this quality of being "indigo" (as compared to a control group) and then repeat the results.

In short, if these "indigo" pushers are going to make a claim about anything. I would hope they would be willing to see if it could hold up to some sort of scrutiny.

Of course, people making such claims have zero training in science and, alas, are not atypical in their inability to apply even the simplest forms of the symbolic logic that we all learned (or were to supposed to have learned) in high school.

Fortunately, they do have the ability to spin a good yarn and isn't that why we're all here? :D

[storygirl]

My sister is just about to have her seventh child. Yes, I said seventh.

None of them have been immunized. My family has tried to convince her to get those precious chitlins vaccinated, but she won't do it, for many reasons, none of which seem remotely logical to me. Her oldest is now 17 and heading off to college. I worry about those kids and what they might contract. But I can't force my sister to do anything, and I can't have a rational conversation with an irrational person.

[RumpleTumbler]

My family has tried to convince her to get those precious chitlins vaccinated, but she won't do it, for many reasons, none of which seem remotely logical to me.

Aren't chitlins intestines?

[storygirl]

Aren't chitlins intestines?
:D Shh, it's always been her nick for her crew of kiddos.

[She_wulf]

I'm not saying that there's no place for scientific research. I'm just saying that on this issue, it doesn't all have to go back to science. Science is not the answer for everything.
I will disagree. Eventually, (most likely never in our lifetime) things we wonder about will be answered. Just like what causes lightning... oh and it isn't Zeus, or Thor, or the Dagda...By that point, new things to wonder about will crop up.

What turns people off about Science (big S) is the fact that scientists can admit it when they are wrong.

OOOOHhh Nooo... I've discovered a can of worms. Because science is fallible, it is labeled bunk by well...people who don't believe in science.

I'm going to go off to a corner and mumble to myself for a while, until I can play nice again.

[Mandy-Jane]

Because science is fallible, it is labeled bunk by well...people who don't believe in science.

I don't label science as bunk nor do I disbelieve in it in general. I'm just trying to say that sometimes there are other explanations for things. Science isn't the be-all and end-all of everything we know.

[DocBrown]

I'm just trying to say that sometimes there are other explanations for things. Science isn't the be-all and end-all of everything we know.

I couldn't agree more! :)

However, that being said, the point I was trying to make above is that the people trying to peddle "Indigo people" as knowledge do so, without any credible or even reasonable rationale other than the fact that they can spin a good yarn.

Of course, the counter-argument that you are using is that science does not explain everything, does not lend any credence to "Indigo people" as knowledge. That's a logical fallacy.

I could just as easily replace "Indigo people" with "scientologist" or any Sci-fi/fantasy fiction you choose and you would have accept it as "knowledge" because the same argument applies.

In short, saying that science does not explain everything does not lend any credence to "Indigo people" having any basis in reality.

[She_wulf]

I don't label science as bunk nor do I disbelieve in it in general. I'm just trying to say that sometimes there are other explanations for things. Science isn't the be-all and end-all of everything we know.
Don't you see? That's the beauty of science...explaining things that are unexplainable. And if it can't be explained, we study it until it can be explained.

If we didn't have that, we'd have... well... religion.

[Red Robin]

Wow. I knew that was crazy pants even before I got to the word Indigo.

And for all those who think there's really something behind this Indigo Children thing, well, good luck with all that you unique snowflakes.:ROFL:

Hey, I'm not gonna dis you if you are Christian or Buddhist or Pagan or whatever, Indigo bursts the stupid barrier, just like Scientology and Falun gong.

[Mandy-Jane]

Wow. I knew that was crazy pants even before I got to the word Indigo.

And for all those who think there's really something behind this Indigo Children thing, well, good luck with all that you unique snowflakes.:ROFL:

Hey, I'm not gonna dis you if you are Christian or Buddhist or Pagan or whatever, Indigo bursts the stupid barrier, just like Scientology and Falun gong.

You know, that is a really insulting post. You're entitled to your opinions; I'm entitled to mine, and you have absolutely no right to go on with this kind of offensive behaviour.

If you can't at least say something constructive like everyone else here who seems to disagree with me, don't say anything at all.

Mind your own business and keep your insults to yourself.

[Mac H.]

Hey, I'm not gonna dis you if you are Christian or Buddhist or Pagan or whatever, Indigo bursts the stupid barrier, just like Scientology and Falun gong.Why aren't you going to dis people who are Christian?

Let's take a particular subset of Christians - someone who believes that the Bible is literally accurate.

By definition, they believe that Angels came down to talk with humans.
How can you treat that belief with respect, if you feel that having faith in a religion featuring Aliens coming down from another planet 'bursts the stupid barrier'?

How does believing that a Donkey talked deserve a different level of respect to the belief that we are possessed by aliens?

Either all non-scientific beliefs deserve no respect, or respect is based on something apart from logic.

Mac
(PS: Mind you, claims like "Our human form is composed of 12 physical strands of DNA" are testable. If something isn't science, they should be proud that it isn't science .. rather than pretend it is. What's wrong with believing in myths, anyway?)

[Pthom]

This is the Science Fact subforum. The topic of this thread isn't about the validity of the claims made in the article quoted by the original poster. It is, in her words, about "outrageous misrepresentations of scientific ideas."

I think we're all intelligent enough to discuss such things without casting a slant on either those who espouse such misrepresentations or on those who agree (or disagree) with them. Such handling of discussions like this belongs in another forum (or perhaps not in the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler at all), and should it escalate ... well, we know what will happen, don't we?

[DocBrown]

I agree with Pthom and not just because he's a mod. :tongue
(I am pretty sure Pthom is a he, my apologies if I misinterpreted your profile.)

This is not the place to be discussing religion and I am quite disappointed that Red Robin would just jump into this thread and take a few potshots.

By the same token, I am disappointed that Mandy-Jane and Mac H. would focus solely on Red Robin's post considering (s)he hadn't posted in this thread until that point. Though it is an excuse to ignore the good arguments that they would have to address.

I am still curious to hear your thoughts on my point that your arguments allow absolutely anything to be considered "knowledge".

If we take your approach and accept anything that we could read as being equitable knowledge, how do we decide what is fact and what is fiction?

How do we reconcile between people who decide to write about things that we know are not physically (or scientifically) possible and people who have proven them to be an impossibility?

[Mandy-Jane]

Hi Doc Brown

I'm finding that I've said about all I want to say on this subject. Meaning, I really don't have anything to add. I'm just saying what I feel and I think it's pointless for me to be going around in circles. That being said, I did jump in and reply to Red Robin's post because I felt it was nasty, and a personal attack on me, which I wanted to answer. And I think you'll agree, he had no good arguments to address. He basically just took a cheap shot at someone because they have differing opinions to him.

But in answer to your question, I'm not saying that anything could be considered "knowledge". I understand your meaning, but people who "peddle" (as you say) Indigo people, don't necessarily consider it set-in-stone knowledge; it's a belief system. At least that's what I believe. No-one knows what is fact and what is fiction. Not even scientists. And those in the Indigo camp don't pretend to know either.

And as far as I'm concerned, nothing is an impossibility.

It's okay. I know you think I'm delusional. But that's just me.

[DocBrown]

Fair enough Mandy-Jane, I cannot argue with someone who embraces self-contradiction, and for what it is worth your previous post is self-contradictory.

There is a theorem in logic that states that anyone who accepts a contradiction into their system is allowed to prove anything, and hence can believe anything, so what can I do?

The moment you accept anything, other things become an impossibility. It's just the way the universe works. ;)

Feel free to start with Descartes initial acceptance: I think, therefore I am.

[Red Robin]

Why aren't you going to dis people who are Christian?

Let's take a particular subset of Christians - someone who believes that the Bible is literally accurate.

By definition, they believe that Angels came down to talk with humans.
How can you treat that belief with respect, if you feel that having faith in a religion featuring Aliens coming down from another planet 'bursts the stupid barrier'?

Well hold on now... When I say Christian, I mean the general majority of Catholics and Protestants, moderate and thinking people. The same goes for Islam, et al. There are sub-sets of every group who are intolerant, ignorant, and/or extreme in their views.

How does believing that a Donkey talked deserve a different level of respect to the belief that we are possessed by aliens?Heh. I would say that it isn't so much the implausibility of the claims made, as the context in which they are made because...

Either all non-scientific beliefs deserve no respect, or respect is based on something apart from logic.I think the latter has something to it. Logic is certainly to be respected, but so are the less tangible aspects of human life. The myths that inform our emotional/spiritual lives are very important. As writers, I think you all get why that is, so I won't elaborate on that, except to say that when the exact form of a myth becomes more important than the very meaning the myth was meant to convey, that myth becomes twisted and perverted. Such a thing injures the emotional/spiritual life more than it moves it forward. I guess I could also say that there is nothing wrong with myth, so long as it acts as a positive framework, which in the case of extremism and cult beliefs, it does the opposite.

But I don't suppose all this belongs in the Science Fact forum, so I won't say any more unless someone wants to start a thread in a more appropriate forum. I'm also sorry that I allowed myself to be caught up in forum drama. It's just not constructive.

Cheers All-

[Lhun]

Bah, as far as i'm concerned, medical quacks are the scum of the earth. Not only do they rip people off dishonestly they also endanger the health of many, many people that way. The anti-vaccination crowd are possibly even worse, i can't even see a real motive for promoting that stupid crap since they don't seem to be making money from it.
And there is very real danger from parents not vaccinating their children. The primary function of vaccinations is to make people immune to diseases, but the also important secondary function is to effectively prevent an epidemic outbreak because no infected person gets in contact with enough non-immune people to let the disease run wild. And since no vaccination is 100% effective it is very important that as many people as possible are vaccinated. If you have a large group of idiots who don't vaccinate their children because of the scare tactics of some quacks, not only do they endanger their children's health, they also increase the risk for other who didn't react properly to their vaccination or didn't have a vaccination for other reasons.
Wasn't too long ago that i read about a warning issued by doctors in britain that the number of unvaccinated children was reaching dangerous levels, mostly because of parents buying into that autism idiocy. But you can bet that when those children get some of the severe after effect of childhood diseases, their parents will find someone else to blame.

[She_wulf]

...And since no vaccination is 100% effective it is very important that as many people as possible are vaccinated. If you have a large group of idiots who don't vaccinate their children because of the scare tactics of some quacks, not only do they endanger their children's health, they also increase the risk for other who didn't react properly to their vaccination or didn't have a vaccination for other reasons...
Has anyone else not developed that "moon"?

I had two vaccinations against (was it MMR, or something else? Can't remember....) anyways, I'm the only one in my class (84 people) who didn't have a scar develop. Does this mean I didn't develop the proper reaction? Am I somehow different?

Being a sci-fi/fantasy buff, could it be Alien blood lines? Changeling at birth? (both Mom and Dad developed one as well as 2 siblings.)

Seriously, I thought I read about this somewhere but forgot it. Any experts?

[Lhun]

Has anyone else not developed that "moon"?

I had two vaccinations against (was it MMR, or something else? Can't remember....) anyways, I'm the only one in my class (84 people) who didn't have a scar develop. Does this mean I didn't develop the proper reaction? Am I somehow different?
Not necessarily. It means that the (intended) small infection from the vaccination probably didn't effect you as strongly as most people, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're not immunized. Could just be that your immune reacted so fast there was no time for any scar tissue to develop. Could also be there was nothing special about the vaccination, and your tissue just regrew without building scars. It sometimes happens, even to people with big burn wounds.
It's not proof that your shot didn't work, though if you're worried about it you should just go ask your doctor.

Being a sci-fi/fantasy buff, could it be Alien blood lines? Changeling at birth? (both Mom and Dad developed one as well as 2 siblings.)Well that's a possibility too of course. Bite off one of your fingers and see if it regrows. :p

[JimmyB27]

I don't label science as bunk nor do I disbelieve in it in general. I'm just trying to say that sometimes there are other explanations for things. Science isn't the be-all and end-all of everything we know.
Yes and no. People often seem to misunderstand just what science is. All it is, really, is a method for finding stuff out. It can apply to anything. Psychics, ghosts, telekinesis, god, magic - all of these things can be tested in a scientific manner.
At the end of the day, it's really just about proof. If you can prove something is real then, well, it is.
The true scientist should have the most open mind. Even Dawkins accepts the possibility that he is wrong about god, he is just following the evidence, which suggests god doesn't exist. You could use the scientific method to prove that the theory of Indigo children is correct, and then it would essentially become science.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Science is simply a structured way of saying: "I don't know, why don't we try it and see what happens?"

As has been said before, people who "don't believe in Science" often misunderstand science. It's a method for answering questions, not dogma. Now, the scientific establishment may be wrong, and different scientists may make mistakes, or not consider all the new data as it comes in. However that doesn't invalidate science.

When people say something's not science, or not scientific, what they're really saying is one of two things-- either it hasn't been tested, or the evidence doesn't support it. Anything can be looked at scientifically, all you need do is find an aspect of the idea to test, and then see what happens.

Science isn't about faith or belief-- it's about seeing what really happens and basing your understanding on what you learn from that. Remember, when theory disagrees with observation, it's the theory that changes.

[dclary]

I love the Indigo movement. It makes me laugh.

Ha! Hahaha!


I am the anti-indigo.

That's right.

I'm an Ochre.

[RumpleTumbler]

I got a flu shot today. I guess I'm not Indigo.

[Triangulos]

While researching the anti-vaccination trend, I came across the following. It was so wacky that I had to share it with others who have an interest in science fact. Do you have similar things you've run across? Outrageous misrepresentations of scientific ideas? Please share!


Could be a case of Darwin in action - those with a sufficiently strong stupidity gene wilfully limiting the survivability of their own lineage by refusing vaccinations for their kids. Just a shame it's the children who suffer in the process...

T.

[dempsey]

On the topic of why scientific research is fallible (I know, four months dead, but I'm saying this anyway)...

Read: Kuhn, Popper, Feyerabend, Duhem/Quine, and... others I'm forgetting right now. But, in particular, Kuhn.

Oh, and Hume. Hume is a biggy. Completely destroys the model of inductive logic. Breaks down cause-effect relationships. It's awesome.

Scientific research isn't as solid as people want it to be. And saying you're going to disagree with something because it "goes against established fact" is supporting bad science. (Or supporting consensus reality.)

"Oh, come on. People aren't THAT stupid."

I learned long ago to never say these words, ever.

[jhmcmullen]

They are giving Gardasil to grade 8 girls in Ontario. I researched that and refused it. (I refused it not because the link between HPV and cancer is weak, but because Gardasil only protects from 4 of the strains of HPV that can cause cancer, and I was unable to find a positive statement that the 4 it works on were definitively cancer causes--and I think they'd be trumpeting that connection if it were there. At this point, behaviour is a better prophylactic.)

On the other hand, I would not refuse MMR vaccines or polio vaccines. You need something like 95% of the population vaccinated before the strategy of not vaccinating has rewards or is likely to work (there's a name for it, but I don't recall it right now). Heck, when I was bitten by a rabid bat, I took everything I could for it. :)

My recollection on the mercury thing--and I might be wrong--is that mercury was in one of the stabilizing or transport chemicals in some vaccines, and that has since been removed. I think I read that most reactions to vaccines (beyond the normal ones--you are introducing an agent into the body, after all) are to the chemicals of the transport mechanism for that particular vaccine. Reactions vary with the individual.

[Lhun]

(there's a name for it, but I don't recall it right now)Herd immunity? It means that so many people in an interacting group are immune to a disease, that even those not immune are unlikely to catch it because there's noone who could infect them. I.e. the initial outbreak dies with the single person that has the disease because they don't come into contact with anyone that's not immune.
Which is very important by the way, because vaccinations aren't 100% effective. Even some of the vaccinated people aren't immune and have to rely on herd immunity to be protected.

[Euan H.]

Oh, and Hume. Hume is a biggy. Completely destroys the model of inductive logic. Breaks down cause-effect relationships. It's awesome.

Yes . . . but I still brush my teeth before going to bed. ;)

As for Kuhn: wholeheartedly agree--but don't forget about the paradigm shifts, 'cause they do happen. (New paradigm => increased explanatory power => voila! scientific method in action!)

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

They are giving Gardasil to grade 8 girls in Ontario. I researched that and refused it. (I refused it not because the link between HPV and cancer is weak, but because Gardasil only protects from 4 of the strains of HPV that can cause cancer, and I was unable to find a positive statement that the 4 it works on were definitively cancer causes--and I think they'd be trumpeting that connection if it were there. At this point, behaviour is a better prophylactic.)

Well, yes and no. You can only control your own behavior. You can't, for instance, control the behavior of your daughter's spouse-to-be, or the behavior of a rapist, or the behavior of your own spouse. Or if your spouse cheats and you get divorced over it but it's too late, you're already caught the disease from the cheating spouse, and you get remarried... well, for behavior to have been a better prophylactic at this point, your 2nd spouse would have to have somehow controlled the behavior of your 1st spouse.

All hypotheticals, of course. I know nothing about your life and who's in it. I'm just listing possibilities. It's like the "how many people have you shaken hands with today?" analogy.

And, of course, you can't control the behavior of your daughter. Refusing to have her vaccinated because "behavior is a better prophylactic" is rather like saying "if you don't keep your legs crossed, you deserve to be infected."

Oh, and... "Once you make that one slip and get infected, forget about getting married, because your spouse-to-be doesn't deserve to get HPV just because you were irresponsible once..."

And so forth.

Immunization against STDs is a good thing in its own right. That this particular STD is linked to cervical cancer does raise the stakes, but in the absence of the cancer connection, HPV is bad enough. Getting immunized means not getting infected, and it means removing a vector for the infection to spread (herd immunity, as someone upthread said).

I can't wait until Gardisil is covered by health insurance for all women under 40 - I will assuredly be getting it then. I wish they'd just OK it across the board for everyone, man or woman, old or young, who wants to get it and not be charged $1500 out of pocket. Men may not be susceptible to cervical cancer, lacking a cervix, but it sure would be nice if this herd immunity thing could be applied to the whole population capable of carrying the disease.

Because, see, I don't know what the future will bring, and I can't control the behavior of anyone but me.

[vrabinec]

I talked to this chicken I know on the way to work, cool dude, and he said that God told him we should stop making fun of idiots. If idiots don't want to be vaccinated, we should repect their wishes.

[The Lonely One]

I think there are sometimes points where religion and science don't effectively "get" each other. When religion starts trying to use science they don't fully understand to make an argument, or visa versa (which happens often), we get these strange ideas of "DNA spirituality strands" and "Christians all think a man was swallowed by a whale! Look everyone and make fun of them!" when neither is necessarily true.

My mind tells me that certain ideas are too much of a stretch for me to commit to, hence why I am agnostic and accept God for what it may or may not be. I do not try to define it through the experiences of other people, only my own.

This isn't a unique scenario, though. So far as I understand it Christian Scientists refute much of modern medicine, and Jahova's Witnesses refuse blood transfusions. Does that discredit both those religions? Does it discredit the science? Neither, I say.

Reality is a personal experience, and there is no irrefutable truth, only majorities and minorities. A majority can force the minority into a situation the majority thinks is best for everyone, but you never know if the minority turns out to be right.

I try not to give the human race too much credit just because of what they've accomplished over a universally speaking short existence. I also try not to give them too little credit over spiritual beliefs and personal interpretations of the world.

[ad_lucem]

Indigo Children? Could make a fun sci-fi plot...or horror...anyway, makes for an interesting story.

I've run into people who were atheists and didn't vaccinate for all manner of weird reasons. There were lots of them in the "attachment parenting" and "punky mother" groups I once tried on for size (hint: they didn't fit well on me, bunched in funny areas).

I got plenty of dirty looks from the "crunchy granola" crowd over vaccinating my kids. And some "how could you?" questions. My response, "Oh well, guess I'm just one of those terrible conformists who can't think for herself."

People just get strange ideas sometimes. It's one of those things that has less to do with religion and owes just to the general quirkiness of being human.

The nice thing about science is its reliance on testable outcomes. Vaccines provide protection and this is a testable outcome. A statistically proven fact.

(There's only one thing I don't like about science: when it is used to answer questions it cannot answer re: the nature of life, ethical questions, and the existence of a higher power/God. Hint: Militant atheists and rabid agnostics piss me off about as much as biblical literalists and crazy moonbat evangelicals.)

Although, I will say, I don't usually get the flu vaccine because they never know which strain is going to be problematic and therefore I'm not about to bother with a shot that may not work. I think flu vaccine technology needs closer scrutiny and DEFINITELY needs to be brought into the 21st century.

[HourglassMemory]

I want to share with you people a forum I've been going to for a few years.
It's a forum that deals precisely with these weird claims.
From ghosts to conspiracies to ufos to big foots to psychics to crazy claims that use science ... and so on
http://forums.randi.org/forumindex.php

If you ever cross paths with a claim that intrigues you for sounding very "out of the ordinary" or "too good to be true, but hey", this place is probably the best one on the internet to talk about these things.
I've talked with aeronautical engineers and a bunch of other EXTREMELY knowledgeable people who have actually changed my mind on quite a few things.
If you go in with honest curiosity to find out what the subject is all about they will gladly take the time to help you find your way through the mountains of data and silliness out there.

They keep you intellectually honest about these things and having an honest conversation with the people of this place really does keep your head away from the clouds.

I hope some of you can take something of value from this.
If you find it a good resource and are conseqeuntely interested in their way of thinking, look for "Skepticism" blogs and podcasts and such. There's great stuff out there.

[JimmyB27]

Wow, I got all the way to my own post on page three before I realised this was a necro-thread.

[small axe]

They keep you intellectually honest about these things and having an honest conversation with the people of this place really does keep your head away from the clouds.


And yet ... your head is real.
And clouds are real.

It's fine to give a long hard look to clouds, or to your own head (a 'skeptical' look if that's what floats yer boat) ... but sometimes that means putting your head very close into the clouds (instead of 'away' from clouds or 'away' from your head) to see what's real.

There is objective reality and subjective reality both.

And we deny any sort of reality at our own risk. :)

[BigWords]

This thread reminds me of a photograph from a few years ago. A bunch of worried parents had gathered together in something of a mob to prevent the opening of a research lab, carrying placards that said such things as "Keep DNA out of our neighborhood." Some folks just don't understant the modern world...

[Canotila]

I'm on waylander's side.

Perhaps it's my fever talking-- but could you please elaborate on this. I don't see scientific research as a matter of faith at all. At base it's about saying: "This theory says a heavy object falls faster than a light one. This one says they fall at the same speed. Let's try dropping two objects to find out which one is right. We'll try more than once just to be on the safe side."

I'm a little skeptical of scientific research that is largely funded by institutions who stand to profit greatly if certain results are obtained. That includes a lot of medical research. That's not to say it's instantly discounted, but I take the sources into consideration. i.e., was this study conducted by a group funded by some drug company? Or has it been conducted 35 times by groups in 20 different countries who all got similar results?

On the subject of vaccinations and autism, my personal opinion (with no formal scientific backing, just a ton of anecdotal evidence and casual studies on the subject) is that people with autism probably don't start out with it in most cases. There does seem to be a trigger, whether that trigger is sustained high fever, or environmental contamination from vaccines, etc. there seems to be something going on that makes an individual more susceptible to getting autism. Maybe those individuals bodies have issues eliminating mercury, I don't know.

There are quite a few high functioning autistics out there. My brother and my dad both have Aspergers which is on the autism spectrum, and they both have good jobs and got married and had kids. Pretty normal lives. My husband's job is taking care of high functioning autistic adults who are able to have jobs and live on their own. Some of them even attend college. They just need someone to come in and make sure they are taking their meds, eat food, balance the bank account, and remind them to take care of their hygiene.

Our own daughter we vaccinated, but more in line with the european schedule. She wasn't born in a hospital and didn't go to daycare so just didn't have the exposure to disease other children get. Also, metal allergies run in my family. My aunt died from an allergic reaction to a vaccine, and when I got the flu vaccine as a child my arm swelled up three times as big. So, we waited until her body had grown up a bit before injecting her with stuff, and then we did them on a schedule where we started with one, and added a second the next time around so that if she did react we could know which vaccine the reaction was to.

The only one she didn't get was the chickenpox vaccine. If she gets the vaccine, she has to get boosters every 7 years her whole life. And if she forgets or doesn't have health insurance when she's 35, I don't want her to get it as an adult and go blind or die from it. If she gets it as a child it is an annoying mild childhood illness, and results in lifelong immunity. If she hasn't gotten it naturally by the time she is 10 years old, then we will start vaccinating her for it.

[blacbird]

I'm a little skeptical of scientific research that is largely funded by institutions who stand to profit greatly if certain results are obtained.

Quoted for emphasis. Everybody should pay attention to this.

caw

[TabithaTodd]

While researching the anti-vaccination trend, I came across the following. It was so wacky that I had to share it with others who have an interest in science fact. Do you have similar things you've run across? Outrageous misrepresentations of scientific ideas? Please share!

http://www.vaclib.org/letters/Attack...ous-agents.doc

Attacking The DNA With Infectious Agents


We have one common enemy that is doing all that they can to eliminate these children and Adults. They are using a concept and technique that has been very effective, to the point that it is attacking the DNA with infectious agents. The lethal mix of infectious agents are being injected directly into the blood stream of new born babies, children and adults and in the process these agents are altering the DNA thus breaking the connection to GOD.

The DNA is an essential component of all living matter. It is very personal, for it contains the encoded information relative to both one’s physical and spiritual lineage. This information determines a person’s physical form, hereditary maladies, mental proclivities, emotional behavioral patterns, SPIRITUAL GIFTS, and more. DNA contains the blueprint for one’s life purpose and divine potentialities. It defines who we are! Until now, this stored information has been inaccessible to us save initiates of mystery schools, spiritual masters, and holy persons dedicated to serving the light.

Our human form is composed of 12 physical strands of DNA and 12 corresponding spiritual strands totaling 24 strands. The average person has only 1 strand activated, which accounts for limited brain use in humans.

I know that all Indigo people have many strands of DNA activated, and as they get closer to GOD more strands will activate so that their purpose in life can be fulfilled.

So what is this infectious lethal mix? You guessed it. It is Vaccinations.

First - I'm non-vax.

First bold point - it's injected intramuscularly not directly to bloodstream. Very bad interpretation there. They use RNA not DNA for vaccines.

Second bold point - As soon as I read the word "Indigo Children" I snarked and disregarded the whole article. I don't believe in this Indigo Children crap. It ludicrous.

[Lhun]

Quoted for emphasis. Everybody should pay attention to this.

cawThat is being waved around a lot these days. But the important point is to actually pay attention to it, not just take it for granted. Because in most cases, complaints about science being biased for political or other reasons are just made by crackpots who can't attack the data. It's the scientific version of an Ad Hominem fallacy. It's relatively easy to see in most cases. If the science is being financed exclusively by one company/branch of industry, and there are no independent studies on the same subjects available from reputable sources, or those disagree but are being drowned out by sheer volume, there might be a bias going on. If, as is the case with autism and vaccines, there are many, many studies available from a varied selection of institutions performing them and funding them, yet none of them show links between autism and vaccines, it's a pretty safe bet that they're right.
Not to mention the little fact that the oft-touted mercury and autism connections can be factually established to rubbish if one takes the time to look up the quite relevant fact that mercury hasn't been used in (children's) vaccines for a long time.
And the plural of anecdote is not data, however many people post theirs on the net and pretend otherwise.

[Dommo]

Totally agree Lhun.