At What Point Would You...

[WVWriterGirl]

...throw in the towel?

I'll warn you now, this post is probably going to be a bit of a downer, and a big fat trip into self-pity and confidence loss, but I gotta know. I'll give you some backstory:


I work on the novels I have in the works until my hands refuse to work any longer;
I submit to every market I think will appreciate my work and my stories, but have never sold anything;
I've queried close to 60 agents for my completed novel and have only requested a partial from 1 agent (who turned out to be not for me);
I've been writing seriously for about ten years, learning about technique, style, characterization, plot, flow...all the things we learn about. I'm not sitting on my duff expecting it to come without work on my part; and
I don't have anyone outside of close family and friends to act as "readers", so I'm stuck in the "Yeah, it's good!" trap.
My question is this: When do you say, okay, that's enough, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, and I give up? What more can I do? I'm frustrated, I'm pissed, and my skin is as thick as it can get without impeding the act of walking. I don't know what else to do, I don't know where to turn, and I'm about to throw in that well-known towel.

[ORION]

If you are a writer then never.

[Manderley]

...throw in the towel?

I don't have anyone outside of close family and friends to act as "readers", so I'm stuck in the "Yeah, it's good!" trap.

You have AW. Have you tried looking for beta-readers in the beta-readers room?

[OctoberRain]

Don't ever throw in the towel. Don't do it. I know that sounds trite, but really, don't do it.

I think you need to keep writing for the same simple reason you started in the first place all those years ago: because you love it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe you'll never sell anything. Maybe you'll never be published. But something more than the fantasy of landing an agent and publisher carried you through the long, difficult, and exhilarating process of writing your novel. Your heart had to have been in it somewhere.

I'm not a great cook, but I still like cooking. I'll never win Wimbledon, but I still play tennis. I've never been published, but I still write.

[seun]

My short term advice is to take a break. For a week or so, do nothing connected with writing. Don't think about it (hard, I know, but do your best). If you want to take a break for longer than a week, do that.

After that, come back to writing with fresh eyes. Have a look here for beta readers and start thinking about something new, something completely unrelated to any of your previous work.

And keep your chin up. :)

[Mac H.]

I've queried close to 60 agents for my completed novel and have only requested a partial from 1 agentThat's actually good news.

If you were getting requests for partials but then the agents were turning you down - then it means that the writing wasn't grabbing their attention.

But if they aren't asking even for the novel, then surely it indicates a problem with the QUERY LETTER rather than the novel?

Wouldn't you rather rewrite a one page letter rather than an entire novel !?

Why don't you post your query letter in the critique section for some help ?

Good luck,

Mac

[Billingsgate]

But if they aren't asking even for the novel, then surely it indicates a problem with the QUERY LETTER rather than the novel?


I agree with this. Maybe you can enlist some help with redrafting the query letter. Know anyone with marketing experience? Then try 60 more agents.

[Saundra Julian]

I agree with the OP, never give up and revamp that query letter. Maybe post the query and part of the first chapter in SYW....Hang tough, sweetie, we all get these feelings.

[Dragonfly45]

It seems like you hear stories all the time about famous authors who had enough rejections before being published they could have given us all a run for our money...the latest one I heard of was a keynote address at a writer's conference given by Jodi Picoult who was rejected by 70-something agents before someone took her on. What I guess I'm saying is, if you believe in your work, keep plugging away. Enjoy your writing on it's own, also. I agree with Sean when he said take a break for a little bit so you can compose yourself.

As a side note, the folks in the query crit section can help you out a LOT. I had gotten twenty-one rejections from my query letter, then I got in there and got it critiqued and soon after got a request for a partial. The partial's still out, but the point is, my query got interest it wasn't getting before. So if you think there might be a problem there, there are some great folks over there that can help!

Good luck...and don't give up! I know it's tough when things aren't going good to see the point, but I think all writers have "go there" sometimes.

[Kudra]

Definitely join a critique group, whether online or in person.

Also, at this point, you may want to consider networking. Not just to make "contacts" per se, but to associate with people who know more about the inner workings of the industry and can help you figure out where you may be going wrong.

AW is awesome for that, of course, but going to conferences, meeting editors and agents-- you know, that kind of thing-- might give a boost to your career.

[Eyan Carrington]

When do you say, okay, that's enough, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, and I give up?
Almost every day! And then I continue writing.

[Jersey Chick]

If I had a dime for every time I thought about chucking it, that I sucked, I'd never sell - I wouldn't need to sell anything. I've been writing forever - I began submitting when I was in my late teens. I finally sold this year. In between, I took breaks, I started a family - etc - but kept writing the entire time. I can't ever give it up - I agree with Orion. If you're a writer, you're a writer for life.

Maybe you need to try something completely different from whatever genre you've been writing. To be an echo again, if you aren't getting grabs from a letter, it's not your writing, but your query. Queries are hard to write - IMHO - but they are a necessary evil.

Take advantage of the SYW forums - there are plenty of people here who would crit you and give you some great feedback.

[swvaughn]

I'm going to diverge a little from the advice given so far (not that it's not great advice -- it is, but there is something that might work better).

You seem to have queried sixty agents with one novel. Is that right? And it looks like you have others in the works. Here's what I would do (what I have done, actually, and it worked... I do have an agent now).

Pick the strongest out of your current WIPs. Finish that one. Edit the shit out of it, get a beta reader or two, and query that one. Set your finished MS aside for now and make the rounds with a new project.

One, it'll get you a break from the query process while you finish writing something else. And two, your new writing will be even better than your older work (no matter how much you edit that one, it's still your first completed novel) because of how much you've learned about writing. Save that first one, get someone to take you on with your second... or third or fourth (no, don't despair! It's not as bad as it sounds!).

And never give up. :)

[jclarkdawe]

...throw in the towel?

I'll warn you now, this post is probably going to be a bit of a downer, and a big fat trip into self-pity and confidence loss, but I gotta know. I'll give you some backstory:
I work on the novels I have in the works until my hands refuse to work any longer; How many completed novels are we talking about here? Ones that aren't completed yet don't count for this problem.
I submit to every market I think will appreciate my work and my stories, but have never sold anything; I'm not sure what you're trying to sell? Novels? Short stories? Nonfiction articles? Why do you think you haven't sold anything?
I've queried close to 60 agents for my completed novel and have only requested a partial from 1 agent (who turned out to be not for me); Could be you have major query problems (many that I see in SYW query letter hell would initially cause me to run in the other direction). It could be you have a problem like word count. It could be an umarketable idea. Why do you think your query letter isn't working.
I've been writing seriously for about ten years, learning about technique, style, characterization, plot, flow...all the things we learn about. I'm not sitting on my duff expecting it to come without work on my part; and At the moment, it doesn't appear that you're being judged on any of that.
I don't have anyone outside of close family and friends to act as "readers", so I'm stuck in the "Yeah, it's good!" trap. Go to share your work in your genre. Try some editing. See if you're having a reaction of it I don't like it here, why do I think it works in my book. Offer to trade editing with people. We're all desperate for readers and most of us would happily trade manuscripts. Go to your local college and see if they have any sort of critique groups. See if your local library has a book discussion group. Go there and see if after you've been there for a while you can con someone into reading it.My question is this: When do you say, okay, that's enough, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, and I give up? Apparently for you, not yet. What more can I do? You've used up every idea you can think of? I doubt it. I'm frustrated, I'm pissed, and my skin is as thick as it can get without impeding the act of walking. I don't know what else to do, I don't know where to turn, and I'm about to throw in that well-known towel.

One thing I'd suggest doing is having a marketing retreat meeting. Normally, you have a bunch of people for these things, but you can do it for yourself.

Ideally, get out of the house, but if you have to stay home, block out a time when no one will disturb you. You need at least two hours for each session (there is going to be two). For each session, you need to be relaxed, and booze is permitted, if it works for you. Good music on the radio.

The first session is "How I Suck as a Writer!" For this session, I want you to write down every possibility on why your writing sucks. I don't care whether it's because you think you use the word "I" too often, or your formating is wrong. Every possible error you think you might have.

Do not be critical of any of the things you come up with. This is entirely brainstorming, and many of the ideas are probably going to be wrong. That doesn't matter at this stage in the game. Just make up a list, making it as long as possible.

After you get done with this session, take a break. Relax, go do something physical, get yourself into a state where you're not thinking about writing at all.

After your break of at least one hour, start session two which is "Why doesn't my writing sell?" Again, there are no dumb ideas here. Anything and everything is fair game. And again, the longer the list, the better.

Now put both of these lists away for at least a week.

After a week, reread both lists. Pick what you think are the ten biggest problems on each and start figuring out how to correct them.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[Shadow_Ferret]

WVWG, the suggestions here are good. Find a beta reader. Put the query into SYW so the more experienced here can help you with it.

But ultimately, the decision lies with you. If you love writing, love the act of creation, then you'll continue to write whether you are successful or not.

I've been struggling for 35 years. Every time I think of giving up, I think, but maybe that acceptance is right around the corner. Maybe that agent who wants me is just one more stamp away.

[donroc]

Never quit. It may take years. Give yourself more time -- till your last breath on the gurney if necessary. Read some praised best-sellers aka how does this exrement get published?), see how much better you can write, and keep at it.

www,donaldmichaelplatt.com

[DeleyanLee]

This might be heartless--but are you only writing for publication? Is that why you started on this road? If it is, you'd have better odds betting your house in Vegas in a known crooked casino than trying to get published.

Writing is something you do because you gain something personal from it--whatever that is. Being published is something, but it can't be everything. It's so out of any individual's control. Best to work for whatever satisfaction and joy you get out of writing yourself. Not only will it improve your outlook, but it'll make your work glow in a special way that readers do notice.

[Jamesaritchie]

I think yo throw in the towel whenever you want to throw in the towel. There's nothing special about being a writer, and no law that says you can't quit whenever you feel like quitting, and there's nothing sane or noble about continuing to do anything when you rather not do so. When writing stops being enjoyable, or when you find something else you'd rather be doing, or when then it makes no sense to continue.

W. C. Fields, or Mark Twain, or someone once said, "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. If you still don't succeed, quit. There's no use being a damn fool about it."

In you case, however, it does sound like it's your query that's bad, not your novel. You need to learn to write a better query letter.

And you need to finish five or six novels. This really shouldn't take all that long. When you have a good query letter, and when your fifth or sixth finished, polished novel is still drawing nothing but rejections, it's probably time to look for a new profession.

[Just Me 2021]

So much good advice here (I especially loved Jim's ideas for a retreat - especially with booze - to write out and conquer the "why I suck as a writer" problem) that I won't give you any (except listen to all these sages.)

I just wanted to say I myself will never quit writing because I love to write. Will I quit seeking publication? I hope not, but I can't answer that one yet. But stop writing? Never. It is in my blood. Stories beg to be written and I oblige. Writing is my pulpit, my therapy, and my method of decompressing. It always has been and probably always will be.

Write for yourself first and publication second. Oh, no - that sounds like advice, doesn't it? Just a little eensy-weensy bit of it. That's all.

[Azraelsbane]

If you're writing because you want to support yourself with writing, take a step back and reevaluate. If you write for the love of it, never stop. In fact, I'd say it'd be impossible for you to do so. Those who write because they love the act always find their way back, rejections be damned.

Here's a quote from Stephen King that may help put things in perspective:

If you're not talented, you will not succeed. And if you're not succeeding, you should know when to quit.

When is that? I don't know. It's different for each writer. Not after six rejection slips, certainly, nor after sixty. But after six hundred? Maybe. After six thousand? My friend, after six thousand pinks, it's time you tried painting or possibly computer programming.

---

That might come across as harsh, but my point is, 60 is not such a crazily high number that you should immediately throw in the towel. Even King says so. :tongue

[ChaosTitan]

I don't have much to add, because everything seems to have been said. There is no worse feeling than that of utter failure. I toed that line over the weekend (long story and this isn't my thread), but I never crossed it. Something always brings me back, and that's a firm belief that maybe, just maybe, the next book will be "The One."

Work on that query. Finish a few more books. Get some new betas. Down some tequila shots. Throw darts at your rejection letters. Take a break, clear your head, and then get back to things with a fresh perspective.

Good luck. :)

[RedScylla]

I went down the spiral of depression last weekend, and I'm back here on the other side. So here's my thought: if the pleasure of writing still exceeds the misery of the submission/query process, keep writing. (Even if it means you have to take a break from subbing for a week or two.)

And by all means follow the two pieces of advice I've seen above:
1. Post for a beta reader! You must recruit readers to know whether your book is succeeding at reaching readers.
2. Put your query letter up for critique. If agents aren't requesting the MS, they're rejecting the query letter.

[MarkEsq]

This could have been my post a couple of weeks ago. I had so may pressures in my life keeping me from writing and so little positive reinforcement to keep me at it that I wondered why I was fighting the inevitable.

I thought to myself: I write because I have to, because I can't help myself sometimes, but I'm not going to give up other things in my life to do it, which means that I'll never finish anything and never get published. That's kind of throwing in the towel, isn't it? Well, it's where I was and it sounds like that's where you are now. I was almost depressed about it.

And then I saw a thread on here. One about an agent who had posted some concepts he wanted to see from writers. One of them matched my current, ignored, WIP and with no regard for reality I got my hopes up. That small, teeny tiny crack of light was enough to guide me back to my computer and reread what Id done (quite excellent of course) and press on. Now I have the writing bug again and know that one day I will be able to share my genius with the world.

So, don't be afraid to take a break. But don't write yourself off as a writer. If you are a writer (and with that much work and effort invested, I am guessing you are), it'll come back. It will.

[zenwriter]

Writing for a long time without getting the success you want is painful, but I imagine that giving up after a decade and wondering every after whether you could have been a contender would be much worse.

[Gray Rose]

WVWWritergirl,

Please forgive me if I am blunt. It seems that you are not waiting for people to tell you to quit, but for people to encourage you to write on.

While we can certainly do that, you are responsible for improving your work if you want to publish anything.

You have posted a story for critique in the SYW forum, and have received great crits. Many referred only to the beginning parts of your story. My advice to you would be to take the first 1000 words of this story and work on those 1000 words until they shine. The critiquers will tell you when that moment arrives. Then work on the next 1000, then the next, until you have learned to correct all mistakes in one story. This will teach you lots and lots about your writing and how to improve it.

At this point you will also have beta-readers, people who are invested in your work.

Good luck with your writing!
Rose

[Azraelsbane]

WVWWritergirl,

Please forgive me if I am blunt. It seems that you are not waiting for people to tell you to quit, but for people to encourage you to write on.

While we can certainly do that, you are responsible for improving your work if you want to publish anything.

You have posted a story for critique in the SYW forum, and have received great crits. Many referred only to the beginning parts of your story. My advice to you would be to take the first 1000 words of this story and work on those 1000 words until they shine. The critiquers will tell you when that moment arrives. Then work on the next 1000, then the next, until you have learned to correct all mistakes in one story. This will teach you lots and lots about your writing and how to improve it.

At this point you will also have beta-readers, people who are invested in your work.

Good luck with your writing!
Rose

I agree with Gray. After working on a few pieces in SYW, I had a nice gathering of betas at my doorstep and they were a phenomenal help when it came to polishing my manuscript for submission. :)

[KVL]

Just a thought, but have you considered trying a new kind of writing? You mention novels, what about poetry or short stories? Or flashfic?

I have a few completed short stories that I submit (and re-submit ;) ) while I work on a novel, and it helps me feel productive... kind of like I'm not putting all eggs in one basket, if you'll forgive the cliche.

[C.bronco]

I'll never throw in the towel, no matter how obvious it may become that I should quit. I will cleave to my delusions. Ha HA! I am unstoppable!

[jclarkdawe]

I took a look at one of your postings on SYW -- the Snow White story. Now I can see a couple of problems that I'd bet would show up in a query letter, and would cause you to be rejected.

The first is the choice of Snow White. She's probably one of the most heavily monitored trademark and copyright character I could think of. And Disney has more lawyers probably then they have characters. Right then and there I'd reject it because of all the legal and licensing expenses. Not only would the expenses be enough to choke a horse, it would be enough to choke every horse in the country.

What this makes me wonder is if you have any idea of marketing. To give you a classic example, John Grisham's first novel was A Time to Kill. Personally, I really like it. But as Grisham realized, it had a limited market appeal. So he wrote The Firm. Talk about a book just begging to be made into a movie! God, virtually any putz could have succeeded with that plot!

I see a lot of query letters that do not have a marketable idea. And one of the reasons for my lack of excitement about my manuscript Stalled Dreams is that it has major marketing problems that show up in the query. Among others, the protagonist is a happily boring married REALLY BORING insurance DEATH HAS REACHED OUT investigator well, maybe some CPR will bring this corpse back to life. I thought I had a cool idea. My wife told me I was an idiot. She was right, I was wrong, and why aren't I surprised.

Second thing I saw in Snow White was a need to tighten. Queries need to be tight, tight, TIGHT! Like thumbscrew tight. Your writing isn't. And since you're trying to reduce Snow White down, I'd guess that your queries aren't tight either.

Third is that Snow White moved slowly into the story. Although that can work in a novel, short stories and queries have to move in for the hook quickly and cleanly. So, again, I think this might show up in your query.

Fourth is the basic concept of Snow White not living happily ever after. It's probably been done, but I doubt if anyone has made it into something exciting. You've got a premise -- not living happily ever after -- but where can you really go with it? Once you've said it, you've pretty much told the story.

Normally I wouldn't tell someone all this. But you seem to have a sincere desire to figure out what's going wrong. And I'll also tell you I could be completely wrong. Critical analysis is what you need to do to turn this all around. And it is doable.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[mirrorkisses]

Maybe it's not your writing, but your query letters. Just a thought. Try re-writing them as if you're writing an actual work.

[mirrorkisses]

ohhh a whole bunch of people said that. heh... check out miss snark or the pub rants. They have a plethora of great query letters you can learn from.

[jenstrikesagain]

Here's a quote from Stephen King that may help put things in perspective:

When is that? I don't know. It's different for each writer. Not after six rejection slips, certainly, nor after sixty. But after six hundred? Maybe. After six thousand? My friend, after six thousand pinks, it's time you tried painting or possibly computer programming.


Thank you! I was trying to remember that quote!!
For myself it's not a question of giving up, it's a question of do I keep pounding my head against the wall with this project, or do I go write something else and try to sell that for a while. I've tried to think out why I don't quit and I can't get any kind of answer, either from myself or the universe. The answer is just always, "You must continue. You must continue. You must continue." I sometimes feel like a subject in a Stanley Milgram experiment.

[ishtar'sgate]

...throw in the towel?


My question is this: When do you say, okay, that's enough, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, and I give up? What more can I do? I'm frustrated, I'm pissed, and my skin is as thick as it can get without impeding the act of walking. I don't know what else to do, I don't know where to turn, and I'm about to throw in that well-known towel.
Sorry to tell you this but if you're a writer you won't be able to throw in the towel. That old siren call simply won't let you go. I echo the advice regarding the query letter. You need to get your foot in the door and that's the only way to do it unless you can book some face time with agents at a writers' conference. A good query is almost harder to write than the novel itself. You have to entice the reader using very few words and it must have punch and generate excitement. Sometimes all you need is fresh eyes so by all means post your query letter in the critique forum and let your writing friends work their magic! :D
Linnea

[clockwatcher]

Why do people keep saying that if she's a writer she won't be able to throw in the towel? She might not stop writing but she might stop trying to find publication. Those are two different things.

Anyway, WVWriterGirl, stay strong.

[MitchJ]

If you don't mind a little public humiliation, try submitting your query to Evil Editor (http://evileditor.blogspot.com/)'s blog. He'll rip it apart, make fun of it, and then give you some insightful notes. He'll probably ask questions of your story that you never thought of answering in your query.

[Niesta]

Stop writing when you no longer love the act of writing. Do something else you love for a while. It's possible that writing, like a bad boyfriend, will be begging you to take it back after a while. It's possible that whatever you take up next will be so rewarding and fulfilling that you never look back. Love what you do, that's the main thing, IMO.

If I weren't writing, I'd be belly dancing. Shut up.

[rhymegirl]

This could have been my post a couple of weeks ago. I had so many pressures in my life keeping me from writing and so little positive reinforcement to keep me at it that I wondered why I was fighting the inevitable.

Hey buddy! I told you to keep writing! (I.e. Positive reinforcement)

How soon they forget.


Excuse me, I'm gonna go cry somewhere. :)

[scarletpeaches]

My short term advice is to take a break. For a week or so, do nothing connected with writing. Don't think about it (hard, I know, but do your best). If you want to take a break for longer than a week, do that.

After that, come back to writing with fresh eyes. Have a look here for beta readers and start thinking about something new, something completely unrelated to any of your previous work.

And keep your chin up. :)

I think this is a good idea for one simple reason - if you try to go a week without writing and you find you can't, then you know that's where your calling lies.

If you can go for a week without even thinking about it or wanting to get back to it, then...meh. Where's the passion for it? Why bother?

Sounds to me like you're not dispassionate about writing; merely discouraged and that passes with improvement and acceptance.

[ORION]

Yanno...
Lots of people want to be authors more than they want to write.
Writers write. That's what they do. Sometimes that writerly drive leads to publication. Sometimes not.
Listen to scarletpeaches...

[J. R. Tomlin]

It's probably been done, but I doubt if anyone has made it into something exciting.

WRONG. Reversal of fairy tales actually is a good market IF done well. Some "Cinderella didn't live happily ever after" stories are classics. My favorite reversal was one in Town Drunk of the old "male space explorer finds Amazon woman planet."

I don't THINK that Disney can trademark the name Snow White since it is a fairy tale. There are still plenty of non-Disney books out there with the fairy tale in it. The name and story far pre-dated Disney.

If you write fantasy -- which fairy tales are considered -- I'd join Critter's Workshop for critiquing. In the age of the internet, you never have to depend on friends and family for crits. I wouldn't bother with a "generic" critique such as Evil Editor's. All too often they don't know the genre and will tell you things like "But you can't reverse fairy tales because it would be a downer."

I rarely bother with non-genre specific crits.

Edit: And rejects from 60 agents is a long way from a record. That doesn't indicate it's time to give up.

[ishtar'sgate]

Why do people keep saying that if she's a writer she won't be able to throw in the towel? She might not stop writing but she might stop trying to find publication. Those are two different things.

Anyway, WVWriterGirl, stay strong.
Because a lot of us have found it to be true. While some writers write for their own pleasure, most write to be read and feel their craft can only be validated by publication. Of course there may come a point when it's not fun, it doesn't gnaw at you if you aren't writing and you find something else that satisfies your creativity. I also hear people say that writing is only a job like any other job. It just isn't that for me. I can't stand it if I don't write. I'm not happy if I don't write. And I love it when others enjoy what I write, which means - publication. I suppose it all depends on what writing means to you and what kind of a hold it has on you. It may sound silly but it's like breathing to me. I need it. If you're like me it's impossible to throw in the towel. If you're not then it won't be as hard.
Linnea

[CheshireCat]

I don't THINK that Disney can trademark the name Snow White since it is a fairy tale. There are still plenty of non-Disney books out there with the fairy tale in it. The name and story far pre-dated Disney.



Yeah, this jumped out at me too. The Mouse may be nearly all-powerful, but not quite. They can trademark that cartoon image of their version of Snow White, but the fairytale itself is fair game.

As for throwing in the towel ... whenever you want to. Taking a break is a good idea. So is putting that finished book aside and working on another one to go back on the query-go-round.

Whichever you choose, it has to be your choice.

But don't keep trying if it's making you miserable. This job is hard enough when you love it, trust me on that.

[Doodlebug]

There have been so many great responses on this thread!! All of the advice is good, but I just have to add my $.02

If I could give up writing, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I loathe the waiting, the rejection, the frustration, the lonliness. I've often told my husband that I wish more than anything that my deepest desire was to be the best darn kindergarten teacher on the planet rather than the best writer. Kindergarten teacher I could do (you go to school, you get a degree, you get hired into a district, tah-dah you're a teacher!). Writing, however, is an all together different creature. The competition is fierce, the skill needed to succeed is immense, the patience required is unbelievable. But, unfortunately, I cannot give it up. And, believe me, I've tried!

So if you can't bear to not write, then you have no option but to forge on. The Horror Writer's Association has some terrific articles on being a writer. You can view them here: http://www.horror.org/writetips.htm

Just always be sure to put your writing into perspective. Depression is a big pitfall of writing!! So try to count your blessings. Hug your kids (if you have them) or your dogs or whatever and remember that there's more to life than putting words on a page. Get regular exercise. Eat well. Make yourself smile if you don't feel like it. Get involved with something outside the writing world.

I'm convinced that if a person sticks with it, uses the advice that she gets from other writers, and works hard to improve her writing, she'll get published. Although not necessarily right away. (It took me twenty years to sell my first story!)

Good luck!! I wish you all the best. :Sun:

[amber_grosjean]

I agree with everyone here. Giving up is not an option. Throw that out the window. Keep writing, keep learning about writing, and keep reading. Don't see yourself short.

Hey, look at all those other writers who had rejection after rejection before getting their first book published. Dr. Seuss to name just one. His books were way too different and publisher after publisher kept turning him down. I can't remember the exact number of rejections but I do know it was high. Look at his books now. Almost every child has read at least one of his books, if not more. You see his books in every book store all the time. I'd say he did very well. That alone has inpired me to keep going because I believed I could do it after everyone told me I couldn't. Now I am published!

Are all your books in the same genre? Maybe you're writing the wrong genre. Maybe its the querry letters like someone else suggested here. What ever the reason is, learn to improve on it and become a better writer. There is so much knowledge out there and it is always changing so keep learning and growing as a writer. Eventually, you will get it.

My motto is dreams always come true! Its really true but you have to believe in yourself and you can't give up! It will happen!

Amber

[ORION]

Somehow people think that being published will eliminate this angst.
It won't. It's part of the process of being a writer. "Was my book a one shot deal?" Will I write another as good?" "How come I don't FEEL like an author?"
Those who write anyway will succeed. I am convinced of this.
As writers we feel things more intensely-- we are dramatic -- our hand to our brow...this is HELL!!! But we write anyway. You are not alone in feeling this emotion.
It's as the chaff separates from the wheat. If you quit you allow yourself to be the chaff you go off into the wind -- but if you stay - you are wheat and become...er uh... a bowl of cereal...see this is JUST what happens when you try to use metaphors....

[CheshireCat]

Somehow people think that being published will eliminate this angst. It won't. It's part of the process of being a writer. "Was my book a one shot deal?" Will I write another as good?" "How come I don't FEEL like an author?"

So totally true.

After selling one book.

After selling twenty books.

After selling fifty books.

Even after they can carve Novelist or Writer on your tombstone and not a living soul or restless spirit would argue with it.

We are filled with doubt and confidence and elation and depression and joy and agony and brilliance and stupidity and skill and inepitude and obstinacy and weakness -- and we can't escape any of it because we need all of it for the characters we create.

I don't consider writing an art. I don't consider myself an artist. I don't believe that we must suffer to create, that we belong, starving, in some garret, without the ability to earn a living wage.

But I do believe the best writers do suffer, if only in the moment, in the character, in the created situation.

The rest of the time, most of us turn ourselves inside-out on a regular basis because that's what we do. We examine the insides of our souls, the darkest corners of our minds and farthest reaches of our imaginations -- and then vomit it all back up so others can see it and feel it and smell it.

Yeah, you liked it right up until that final image, didn't you?

We can do that too, create images that create emotions that cause real people to grimace.

It's what we do.

And it's probably more addictive than heroin.

Kick the habit or learn to live with it; there really isn't a third option.

Of course ... all this is only my own opinion.

[blacbird]

Somehow people think that being published will eliminate this angst.
It won't.

Wouldn't hurt a lot, though.

caw

[BuffStuff]

The safe answer to your question is: Quit when it's no longer enjoyable to you..The dangerous (but no less correct) answer is, quit if you find out you just don't have the talent to make it. For every talentless writer who goes on and on for years, possibly decades never giving in and never selling a damned thing, there are others who recognize that however much the desire is there, the wells of talent just might not be deep enough and they move on to other endeavors, things which they may be superbly talented in.

However well meaning, "Never give up" and its variations appear like great, motivating advice but it is advice which can be very destructive to the thousands of people out there who just don't have the talent to make it as a writer because it encourages them to keep "spinning their wheels" and possibly never exploring other areas/professions they might be vastly more suited for. There's no shame in quitting. No shame at all.

This being said, there's no easy or definitive answer to your question. Some writers who were rejected for years went on to eventually become best sellers, but they are the exception.

This post is a long way of saying "who knows?", I suppose. Only you know for youself when it is time for you to quit and when it is time to stay in the fight another 6 months.

Kind Regards,
BS

[seun]

I haven't read the OP's Snow White story so this may not be relevant:

In Neil Gaiman's collection of stories Smoke and Mirrors, there's a story from the POV of the witch in Snow White.

So it might not be correct to say no publisher would touch a Disney character in a story.

[seun]

Listen to scarletpeaches...

Is this ever safe advice? ;)

[Voyager]

Ask Haggis, he's still trying to chew his way through the restraints

[roger]

In writing time, ten years isn't very long at all. Some people get the breaks straight away, others - me included - have to wait a long, long time. My first novel was published when I was 46, my second at 47, my third will be published next year, three days before my 48th birthday. But I have been writing fiction ever since I could hold a wax crayon.

[scarletpeaches]

Snow White isn't a Disney character. I think the Brothers Grimm would attest to that.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I took a hiatus from writing for several years. I had gotten married, had our first child, and was just frustrated that my career had gone nowhere at that point. I took several years off.

Then I came back refreshed finished a novel I'd been struggling with before I quit. Have finished another and I'm subbing that one. Am working on 3 others.

Don't think of it as quitting, think of it as just taking a break to recharge.
Snow White isn't a Disney character. I think the Brothers Grimm would attest to that.
But the Brothers Grim are dead. Disney's lawyers aren't.

[jclarkdawe]

Snow White may have been created by someone else, but if you want to fight Disney's lawyers, get in line:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEEDC153DF932A05750C0A96F9482 60

I stand by my answer on the problems of Snow White. And if Disney will sue the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for the Oscars ...

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[Azraelsbane]

Snow White may have been created by someone else, but if you want to fight Disney's lawyers, get in line:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEEDC153DF932A05750C0A96F9482 60

I stand by my answer on the problems of Snow White. And if Disney will sue the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for the Oscars ...

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

Not that I watched the '89 Oscars, but I'd be willing to bet she was in the Snow White costume popularized via the Disney movie. Grounds for suit, yes. Using the name itself, I agree with SP, is not. Fairy tale rip offs are popular these days. I actually think the person who wrote Wicked is making a nice living off it. Wicked, Confessions of an Ugly Stepsister, and I'd be willing to bet Maguire isn't done.

Granted, some things in this would raise Disney's flags (dwarf names), but using Snow White in a novel/short story is not automatically a legal issue.

[Nateskate]

If you believe in your story or your gift, then it's simply a matter of patience. Now, that may mean massive re-writes, which may seem daunting. Or it may be that you need to work on another story- depending on feedback you're getting.

The question is, have you had any positive feedback??? What kinds???

Have you had any negative, but constructive feedback??? "You need this this and this..."

[tjwriter]

I'm really interested in what you plan to do, WVWriterGirl. Rejection is hard, enough if you've been dealing with it for a long time.

In line with the other advice around here, I say do the following three things:

1. Put your query out there for a crit. People all over this board have commented on what a difference it makes once they have done that and sent out a revised query letter.

2. Find some beta readers for your story. Even if it's just a partial. You can take what you learn from a feedback on one part and apply it to the whole novel. Heck, I'll even offer right here and right now if you don't mind that I might take a tad bit longer than some other choices.

3. Keep working on other stories. Sometimes one particular novel is never going to be sold. Sometimes it's the fourth or fifth that makes the big break. Don't get down. Just keep submitting. (Now sing that to "Just keep swimming" from Finding Nemo and we'll be good.)

As a side note, I'll also that you can always come to AW for advice, encouragement and honesty. We're all in this together.

[Voyager]

Snow White may have been created by someone else, but if you want to fight Disney's lawyers, get in line:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEEDC153DF932A05750C0A96F9482 60

I stand by my answer on the problems of Snow White. And if Disney will sue the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for the Oscars ...

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

What about Ann Rice's Sleeping Beauty series, JCD? I'll bet they just cringed over that one, but did they try and do anything about it? I've never read the original fairy tale, but the beginning of the first book is straight out of the movie. LOL, Disney must have crapped their pants.

[Twizzle]

okay, that's enough, maybe I'm not as good as I think I am, and I give up[/I]? What more can I do? I'm frustrated, I'm pissed, and my skin is as thick as it can get without impeding the act of walking. I don't know what else to do, I don't know where to turn, and I'm about to throw in that well-known towel.

Well, I walked away. Quit. Threw in the towel. Had nothing to do with failure or success.

Best decision I ever made.

In March, I made the decision to try it again. And I hope, this time, I'm ready. But that's not my point. My point is, you can walk away. The world won't explode. Nothing bad will happen. And it doesn't have to be forever.

You can give yourself permission to back off and explore other things. Maybe you'll come back. Maybe you'll find you were supposed to be doing something else entirely. Whether a day, a week or in my case, three years, sometimes it's perfectly okay, and even better for your writing if you do quit.

The secret is to figure out when you truly need a break and when you're just feeling discouraged and need to keep trucking...

[jclarkdawe]

What about Ann Rice's Sleeping Beauty series, JCD? I'll bet they just cringed over that one, but did they try and do anything about it? I've never read the original fairy tale, but the beginning of the first book is straight out of the movie. LOL, Disney must have crapped their pants.

Are there exceptions out there? Probably. In this case, you're talking about what I believe is an author's third published book, which is vastly different than that first one. Also, I don't know about you, but if I could write like Ann Rice, I'd bet they'd accept a lot of crap from me. But for an average writer with average skills?

As an agent, looking at a first time author, and knowing the problems you're going to have with getting that accepted by a publisher, going to risk the additional problems of using something that can create a problem? My guess is probably not.

The original poster is an author who is trying to get her work published. Just like some fantasies with 150k words get published by first time authors, there are exceptions to everything. Consistently betting on the favorites, however, is more likely to limit your losses than betting on the longshots. One of the issues in getting a book published is making sure it doesn't have any problems with marketing.

If you're writing for fun, who cares? But if your goal is publication, you'd better think about doing everything possible to grease the wheels. Saying "No" is easier than saying "Yes."

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[windyrdg]

I feel your pain. Actually I have felt your pain. I queried 75 agents (with five different iterations of my query letter) and got one request for a partial with the comment "well written, but I didn't love it."

I put it on a shelf and wrote another. Then, during the lull of starting the next, I took that old manuscript out for another looksee. I whacked off another 10,000 words, tightened some dialog and, you know what? I kinda like it. I'm going to run some more queries on it.

When do you give up? Only you can tell. Keep in mind that everyone doesn't get published. It's just a hard fact of life. I agree you should access the resources on this board before throwing in the towel. Remember, everything will look different tomorrow.

[Ageless Stranger]

I never used to think it was possible to give up at writing, I mean, if it's such a passion then obviously you'd stick it out no matter what but the more I write, the more I'm coming to also recognise that feeling that it's not going to work. But then I find that it's the same thing with anything that's difficult to the extreme, one of your first reactions will be to quit.

[Khazarkhum]

A close friend of mine once said, "They tell you you can be anything you want. That's not true. I wanted to be a jockey." He's 6' & 170 lbs.

I walked away from writing after a disastrous turn with an agent. I was so bitter & upset that I didn't even try writing for 6 years. Then, just for fun, I tried fanfic. I touched a lot of nerves, and am now back at writing. The query dance is about to begin.

If you need a break, and it sounds like you do, by all means take it. There's no magical timeframe for writing, even though we often think that there is. No one will belittle you if you take a vacation, and the people who do are not your friends. After all, they take vacations from work, don't they? You can, too.

[Philip64]

The great WC Fields said something like: "If at first you don't succeed, try again. And if that doesn't work, give up. No sense in being a damned fool about it."

That said, I would add the following:

- I made my first book sale more-or-less eight years after I first put pen to paper. So, as some others have said, ten years is not too late to get lucky.

- It sounds like you have only one completed full-length novel. Nearly every published writer has an unpublished manuscript or two in the bottom drawer. It's possible you have come to the end of the road with yours. But in writing it you will have learned a great deal. Your next novel will be better.

- Maybe you should not only take a break from your current book, but from the genre itself. Start to think about a book that isn't a fantasy/horror story. Maybe think about something in a field you would never have dreamed of touching. A little freshness can go a long way.

- If writing is really for you, you will find yourself trying again before long anyway. So the question will answer itself in time. Most writers have to have a novel on the go or their lives start to feel empty.

In short, giving up on written work is part of the writer's life, however unthinkable it seems at the time. It's writing itself that never (completely) goes away.

[sneakers145]

I agree with the others:

1) find a beta reader
2) revise your query. Jessica over on the Bookends blog is doing a pitch critique right now, with what works, what doesn't, what's missing. Queries and pitches are hard to write. Also, Miss Snark's Crap-O-Meter has examples of hooks with crits.
3) share your query here for feedback.
4) don't give up! take a break if need be, but keep writing.

[Oliveman]

I really have to agree with what everyone else has said, so if you want to know my opinions, just read ^^^^^^^ the above.

My own suggestion comes from the experience of knowing that there is an overwhelming hurtle a writer must overcome in themselves and in their style in order to write well. That hurtle is almost never in the same place, and it is nigh unseeable at times.

What to do? - Find it.

Find your own weakness. Something is holding you down, but you are doing the wrong thing. Your thoughts stray to giving up, but what you really should do is refocus, and use all of your strength and passion to tear into your own piece and find whatever it is that's holding it back.

Why isn't it strong enough? That is the first question of the million others that follow. Now that you've considered stopping writing all together, what do you have to lose by being your work's harshest critic? I say that's good, because you're also the most productive critic.

So, go find your writing and put yourself aside for a while. Maybe you researched how to write well, maybe you did everything right.... but those thoughts just get in the way. You can make your novel or piece what you dreamed it to be, and you can make others experience that thrill and passion that got you to try 60 times. You can. And you will.

Don't listen to Stephen King - no one who tries 6000 times is a failure at writing. In fact, they're a damn well respectable writer. You don't need to be born with talent to succeed, you only need to be able to see where your talent can grow. That found- grow it with all your heart. Demand nothing less of yourself but growth. Every writer faces these hurtles, and it is every writer's job to face them... and face themselves.

Best of luck to you in your further writing endeavors

Oliver

[Akuma]

I think the only question you need to ask yourself is this:

Would you regret it if you did quit?

Depending on how you would feel, there's your answer.

Besides. Everyone needs a vacation every once in a while.

[Ali B]

If you are a writer then never.

Wow, couldn't have been said better. :)

[brainstrains]

Writing has been my one and only love since I was five. It is something that has sent a little thrill through me more than anything in this world, and though it kept me sane at times, I never seemed to have much financial success with it. It's been 30 years and I am finally able to put that signature on the bottom of this post. See it down there? It is worth whatever you have to do in order to get there-- whether it takes 30 years or 130. You don't give up. If you love it as much as I know you do, you don't. If you love it that much, you wouldn't be able to, anyway. It wouldn't let you.

Best of luck.