A word count norm? If there is such a thing...

[jannawrites]

There's probably no way to figure this, but is there a standard ballpark word count for a novel? (I'd be happy with your opinions.) I'm at roughly 35,000 now... just started chapter 15... and feel like I'm about 2/3 through the book. My loose outline concludes at chapter 23, but I've already seen that I'll have to add a few more. Thought I've been telling myself I'd stop when the story's told, I want to have some idea of what I'm aiming toward. Do I need to be more specific in what I've lined out for myself?

[III]

Rule of thumb 80k - 100k. Thumbs may vary.

[jannawrites]

Holy cow, that's a lot!

[Jersey Chick]

It depends on genre and/or subgenre... Category romance, for example is roughly 55k words. Single titled between 85-100k depending on publisher. Fantasy is (I think) roughly 100-120k. Whatcha writin'?

[jannawrites]

All signs point to mainstream.

[Teige Benson]

I agree with III - I think you should be shooting for that 80,000 to 100,000 range.

Writing short seems to be making its rounds of late.

[WendyNYC]

Can you add an interesting subplot?

I keep reading that 60,000 is the bare minimum for mainstream.

[Joe Moore]

Here's a general rule-of-thumb for fiction word count:

Epic: A work of 200,000 words or more.
Novel: A work of 60,000 words or more.
Novella: A work of at least 17,500 words but under 60,000 words.
Novelette: A work of at least 7,500 words but under 17,500 words.
Short story: A work of at least 2,000 words but under 7,500 words.
Flash fiction: A work of less than 2,000 words.

First time authors should error on the side of caution since longer manuscripts cost more to print and publisher must factor that in when deciding to offer a contract. Good luck.

[III]

I trust Joe's thumb

[jannawrites]

Can you add an interesting subplot?

I keep reading that 60,000 is the bare minimum for mainstream.

I've got a couple of those.

60k I can do. To go much beyond that, though?

My first chapter was 21 pages; I just wrote and wrote. But each chapter after that has run much shorter - because that's where it felt right to break - sometimes 6 or 7, sometimes 10 or 11 pages.

[Jersey Chick]

60,000 leans close to category (at least in romance - I don't know in mainstream) - which can limit your choice of publishers. There might be a few secondary characters you can build a subplot around. I'd suggest write to the end of your outline, take a look (kind of a rough edit) and see - something might pop out as a subplot, or you might see scenes that can be fleshed out.

[Shady Lane]

Don't know if you could pitch this as YA, but, if you feel like it, YA mainstream usually runs from 40-80K.

[Rowdymama]

I don't think it's wise to keep adding subplots until you get the "right" wordcount. Books come in all sizes, there's no definite rule. Look at Wind in the Willows, Animal Farm, Bridges of Madison County. More depends on the content and the story. Here are some questions to ask yourself:

1. Am I letting my characters off too easy? Are they conflicted enough?

2. Do I know my characters well enough to write convincing internal monologue?

3. Do I know enough about writing emotions to explore those of my characters' fully?

4. Do I have enough backstory, or so much that it drowns out all the action?

5. Have I written in generalities instead of specifics?

I hate to see writers aping Stephen King, the World Master of Adding Fluff because while he is pretty good at it, they are usually not. Go ahead and finish your first draft, at whatever length, then bring it to me and we'll see if it needs more bulk.

[jannawrites]

Don't know if you could pitch this as YA, but, if you feel like it, YA mainstream usually runs from 40-80K.

Def not a YA book. :(

[Wraith]

Finish it first and then take a good look at it. Some people tend to write short first drafts that need fleshing out, which may be your case. You may find that you need to explore your characters more, expand some sections, develop conflicts etc. Otoh, it may also be that that's the length your story needs, and it wouldn't do it any good to add words just because. Any book length can be marketed imo, it's just that you'll have a harder time doing it as a new author. But books come in all sizes and the story's the master, so if your story's good and you care for it, it will eventually work out I'm sure. :) Good luck with it. Keep pushing to the end first without worrying about the wordcount just yet, ok?

[Bufty]

If this is your first novel - my advice is simply concentrate on finishing it -nothing else. It can be tweaked after that. If you think you can manipulate word count on the way I think your story will get totally lost.

[jannawrites]

If this is your first novel - my advice is simply concentrate on finishing it -nothing else. It can be tweaked after that. If you think you can manipulate word count on the way I think your story will get totally lost.

I agree! I don't want to get so lost amid the word count that I forget the story I'm trying to tell. Thanks, Bufty!

I appreciate everyone else's advice, too.
Janna

[jannawrites]

First time authors should error on the side of caution since longer manuscripts cost more to print and publisher must factor that in when deciding to offer a contract. Good luck.

I didn't catch this the first time through, Joe. It's a great point to keep in mind.

[Prawn]

I am for 90K for a first draft.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

There's probably no way to figure this, but is there a standard ballpark word count for a novel? (I'd be happy with your opinions.) I'm at roughly 35,000 now... just started chapter 15... and feel like I'm about 2/3 through the book. My loose outline concludes at chapter 23, but I've already seen that I'll have to add a few more. Thought I've been telling myself I'd stop when the story's told, I want to have some idea of what I'm aiming toward. Do I need to be more specific in what I've lined out for myself?


If you're on your first draft, just finish the story and get it down on paper. If it's too short when you're done with it, you might be able to add a subplot or two. Just make sure not to overdo your writing. In my own case, I have a tendency to do a short first draft and then try to lengthen it. But my problem is that a lot of the time, I will actually do too much, and make the work too wordy just to make it longer.

The best way I've seen to add word count is to add a subplot or two, and insert them into the story as needed.

Also, I find that I need some form of outline to make a good novel-length work. However, I also find if I put too much detail into my outlines, I end up stifling my creative side. This keeps me from doing my very best on my work.

Whatever you do, remember the saying constantly quoted by James D. Macdonald on this board: if it works for you, it's right.

Best wishes to you for your novel WIP.

:)

[Joe Moore]

Here's some insight from an agent at BookEnds (http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-i-reject.html)as to how you can be rejected due to word count. And other issues.

[jordijoy]

There's probably no way to figure this, but is there a standard ballpark word count for a novel? (I'd be happy with your opinions.) I'm at roughly 35,000 now... just started chapter 15... and feel like I'm about 2/3 through the book. My loose outline concludes at chapter 23, but I've already seen that I'll have to add a few more. Thought I've been telling myself I'd stop when the story's told, I want to have some idea of what I'm aiming toward. Do I need to be more specific in what I've lined out for myself?

Manuscript Length
Definition: The length of a manuscript (word count) to determine what term to call a piece of fiction is often confusing to aspiring authors.
Use in industry: The industry standard for length of manuscript varies by type and genre. A good definition was provided by Jamesaritche on these boards, so I’m using his post to give general guidelines:

By Cathy C (of this post)
Short Short: Under 2,000 words
Short story: 2,000--7,500 words
Novelette (General Fiction): 7,500--15,000 words
Novelette (SF & Fantasy): 7,500--17,500 words
Novella (General Fiction): 15,000--30,000 words
Novella (SF & Fantasy): 17,500--40,000 words
Novel (General Fiction): Over 30,000 words
Novel (SF & Fantasy): Over 40,000 words

[jannawrites]

Here's some insight from an agent at BookEnds (http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-i-reject.html)as to how you can be rejected due to word count. And other issues.

That's a fantastic post. Thanks for sharing it with us!

[WordGypsy]

Here's some insight from an agent at BookEnds (http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2007/11/why-i-reject.html)as to how you can be rejected due to word count. And other issues.

But I just got a partial request from Bookends and mine's only 63,000. Just finish it and see where you are. I finished mine at 53,000 and added 10,000 in rewrites. Some people need to shoot for 90,000 because they're cutters. Me, I'm an adder.

[J. R. Tomlin]

Sorry, but the concept of selling a SF/F of 40,000 is just not realistic. Those may have been reasonable figures at one time, but they're not now.

I don't know where Jamesritchie got them or when, but they are seriously out of whack for what is expected now. Baen (for example) won't even look at one under 100,000 words.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Sorry, but the concept of selling a SF/F of 40,000 is just not realistic. Those may have been reasonable figures at one time, but they're not now.

I don't know where Jamesritchie got them or when, but they are seriously out of whack for what is expected now. Baen (for example) won't even look at one under 100,000 words.


40,000 words was the minimum on the list for SF/F novels. Really, the guidelines are just that: guidelines. They're not intended to be a perfect example, because each house has different requirements.

[eqb]

Sorry, but the concept of selling a SF/F of 40,000 is just not realistic. Those may have been reasonable figures at one time, but they're not now.

The numbers quoted are those used in most SF award categories, with novellas running up to 40K, and novels being anything longer. In general you don't find adult novels that short, but middle grade and younger YA novels do run from 40K to 60K in length.

[David I]

Novels in general have been drifting up in size (despite the endless whingings and warnings about paper costs). Back in the heyday of paperback originals, 50-60 k was a very common word count. It is way up from that now: Baen tends to suggest 100k, DAW says they wouldn't be interested under 80 k, and so on.

My debut novel was submitted at 115 k, and expanded to 120 k after editing. Probably 80-100 k won't raise any eyebrows these days, and may even be the sweet spot.

But that isn't my point, because that isn't the problem.

A really great book will be a really great book at 50 k or 180 k, and I don't really think there's anyone out there saying, "Oh my god, it was a work of genius...but it just didn't fit our word-count guidelines."

Of all the things you should worry about, this should be low on your list.

Writing that really great book should be up towards the top.

[ORION]

That is SO true David!!! I totally agree.

[Inukshuk]

I can vouch for the "too long" rejection. I wrote a romantic fantasy that ended up at 266,000 words. Following the query letter format for a novel, I put the genre and word count in the first line. I queried seven agents and got five rejections before I stumbled into this website and learned it was doomed from the beginning, no matter how well written or received by beta readers. Long books are expensive to produce. Unless you're an established author no publisher will take the risk on a first novel. Armed with this knowledge and being somewhat of a scientist at heart, I decided to do a bit of forensics on the rejection (number 6) that showed up last week. After opening the SASE I pulled out the synopsis and the "first fifty" sent per the agent's submission guidelines. There wasn't so much as a smudge, wrinkle or bent corner on any of the pages. Even the paper clip on the synopsis was still in place. The only thing missing was the query letter. My best guess is that it went straight to the SASE with no detours, stopping only long enough for a small, curtly worded rejection card to be tossed into the envelope. I have no doubt that when number seven shows up the material will be in the same pristine condition. Okay, lesson learned. No more submissions for this manuscript. I started a new story a few weeks ago in a different genre. I'll see where this one leads. But this time I know where the limits are, thanks to you all. And, I'll know the rejections are based on a poorly crafted query, an uninteresting plot or just plain bad writing.

[jannawrites]

But don't give up on that ms, Inukshuk. Have you thought about cutting it down?

[Inukshuk]

Janna, thanks. I'm sure it could be cut back or perhaps even made into two books, but after two years of writing and a third in multiple rounds of editing, I'm too close to it. There's also a good deal of me woven into the characters, good and bad, something that never happened in the short stories I've sold. Therefore, I think I'm going to take the advice of one of the people in the other strings and just set it aside for a year or so. I need some perspective, to read it with new eyes, toss the bad, keep the good, shrink it or make it into two. Whatever the case, the objective will be to create a story that's so sleek the reader has no sense of length. If I can do that, I've won, whether or not it gets published. In the meantime, there's another story I've always wanted to write and I've just kicked it off. I'm also, unfortunately, traveling again, which means lots of dead hours in hotels, a fortuitous arrangement for writing.

[scarletpeaches]

78,796. Not a word more, not a word less.

[ACEnders]

You may surprise yourself. I changed my first draft around so much and added scenes, changed scenes, deleted scenes, that right now I have 93k words. My first draft was 90k. That doesn't seem like a whole lot, but when you go back over your first draft for the first time, you'll be amazed at what things may change. As you write, you learn. As you learn, what once was right isn't. If that makes sense. I wouldn't freak out about it at this stage. Just get it out right now.

[jannawrites]

Whatever the case, the objective will be to create a story that's so sleek the reader has no sense of length. If I can do that, I've won, whether or not it gets published.

Genius.

[deathwizard]

78,796. Not a word more, not a word less.


HA!!!!!!

But it's okay to use 78,796 really LONG words.

[wayndom]

Since I've seen advice from agents that either a word-processor count or a "publisher's count" (250 x number of pages) is acceptable, I say finish the book, and go with whichever count produces the number you're most comfortable with.

I'm working on a 65,000 word novel. Since that's short (though I've never heard it's too short), I'm going with the pub count, which makes it 73,000.

According to Miss Snark, nobody cares if the word count is off. I'm sure the reason is, if an agent can't put the book down, word-count considerations fly out the window.

I've queried without mentioning the word count (although I mentioned that I'm published) and have gotten requests for fulls and partials, so I'm not sure how much it matters at any point (unless of course your work is 40,000 or 300,000).

[jannawrites]

... a "publisher's count" (250 x number of pages) is acceptable...



I've seen this mentioned before, but it's a fairly new concept to me. You literally multiply like you've stated above? Is that how most around AW figure their word count?