Winging It

[sanctuary6284]

I'm having a little problem. I know how I want my story to start, but I don't really know where it's going (the end) or what my antagonist's motivation really is.

I'm considering winging it and seeing where it goes. I was just wondering if anyone else has done this? If so, how did it go?

[daoine]

Stephen King writes like that ;) Before he finished the Dark Tower series he wrote that he felt really bad whenever someone met him or wrote to him and told him they had cancer or whatever and only so long to live - could he tell them how the Dark Tower ends? And he couldn't because he had no idea himself.

[xDemode]

I hear that a lot of writers don't use outlines. There's nothing wrong with that.

I think some people like outlines because it keeps you on track. You never really have a roadblock where you can't think of what to do next because you've already planned out the sequence of events.

Then I believe some people don't like outlines because it's almost as if nothing is spontaneous and you're limiting your story to what's on the outline.

I'm on the fence. For me, writing an outline is a good if you don't know where your story is going. I learned that the hard way. Normally, I can write stories without an outline. But they were all short stories, maxing out at about 30k words. A novel is much bigger than that. I've never written anything with that big of a word count, so I constantly found myself starting over and struggling to get past 10k-30k. It was as if I had a beginning and an end, no middle at all. So I ended up writing a brief outline, switching POV and seeing what worked the best. So far it's helped a lot.

The thing about writing is you have to learn from experience. Some people will tell you go for the outline and others will tell you there's nothing wrong at all with just writing from off the top of your head. And what works for someone else, might not work for you. You just have to do what you think will work best for you in this situation.

Good luck! Hope this post helped a little.

PS.

Buckeyes for the win.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Tom Robbins NaNo Pep Talk (http://www.nanowrimo.org/node/1052008) addressed this very issue quite nicely.

Most really good fiction is compelled into being. It comes from a kind of uncalculated innocence. You need not have your ending in mind before you commence. Indeed, you need not be certain of exactly what's going to transpire on page 2. If you know the whole story in advance, your novel is probably dead before you begin it.

I was grateful to read it since I'm winging my NaNo Novel.

[CheshireCat]

I don't outline and never know where the story is going to end up when I start writing. Hell, I seldom know where the chapter is going to end up.

I have friends who outline loosely, and friends who outline meticulously -- and friends who don't outline at all.

Do whatever works for you.

(Somebody should probably annouce that this is the November discussion about outline vs. winging it. Next month we'll do it again. ;))

[Stew21]

I like Tom Robbins - he's a one sentence at a time guy, and I so appreciate that.
The title of my book is named for a character I didn't know was going to be in it.
I never intended on having ghosts. Just sort of happened. One sentence at a time.
(thanks for the link, Dev)

[DeadlyAccurate]

(Somebody should probably annouce that this is the November discussion about outline vs. winging it. Next month we'll do it again. ;))

We should also date the "how many words in a novel" threads, too.

[KTC]

Winging it is the only way I know how to write. I say go for it. And if you don't know the start yet, wing it from page 40 on and work on the start once you have the rest. There is no law that says you have to write a novel chronologically. Just wing it...give yourself over...

[sanctuary6284]

It's good to hear this. I had originally written a loose outline but when I went back to it something just wasn't right. Then I made some changes to my world and everything got confusing. Now I just have a few loose facts that I'm holding on to and that's where I'm starting.

I'd at least like to know what my antagonist (at least I think he's the antagonist) is up to.

[Stew21]

don't worry about your antagonist's motives, they will come out eventually. Or that person ends up not really being the antagonist (which is what happened to me. The one I expected to take the roll ends up being one of the friendlies.)
you might not even know who the real antagonist is yet.
Don't worry about it.

From a wing-it writer, just write it and you'll figure it out.

I tried to outline one time. It didn't go so well. They all started doing their own thing, characters jumped in I didn't know anything about, relationship dynamics were way different than I expected. What I thought the character should say wasn't what the charcter said.
I scrapped the outline, and let the story unfold. Sit back and watch the show.

[xDemode]

There is, in fact, only one rule in writing fiction: Whatever works, works.

I believe I like that Tom Robbins quote the best.

It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

I'm in support of doing whatever it is you feel most comfortable with because whatever works, works..

Though, I would like to know why outlining is so frowned upon.

[Stew21]

outlining isn't frowned upon.
Just some of us aren't wired that way.

many people outline and it's the only way they can write a story.

many people wing it (seat of their pants) and it's the only way they can write a story.

Tonight the question just happened to land on a bunch of "pantsers."

[HopelessDreamer]

I don't use outlines, but when I was writing my novel I knew where it began and where it was going to end, as well as a few details in between. That's not an outline, but I did have some idea of where it was going. I think it's a good idea to have at least a vague outline in your head.

[Righting]

If i get stuck, i'll write some of the story on scrap and shove it in my pocket-so when i'm out i'll take a look at it. I'm usually surprised when the ideas come, could be riding the ferry or subway in NYC etc.. good luck!

[KTC]

outlining isn't frowned upon.
Just some of us aren't wired that way.





Um. I frown upon it...but just for me. I've tried it with deadly pathetic failure. You're right...wiring...I am not wired for outlining. Winging is all I know how to do. It's like fighting upstream, but it's my stream...

[Devil Ledbetter]

Um. I frown upon it...but just for me. I've tried it with deadly pathetic failure. You're right...wiring...I am not wired for outlining. Winging is all I know how to do. It's like fighting upstream, but it's my stream...I know what you mean. My outlines turn into roadmaps of places I didn't get anywhere near.

[KTC]

I know what you mean. My outlines turn into roadmaps of places I didn't get anywhere near.


OMG. That's exactly it. Perfect wording...

[Shady Lane]

I'm a halfie. I start of winging it completely, then outline about halfway through when I start to get realllly confused.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

I'm having a little problem. I know how I want my story to start, but I don't really know where it's going (the end) or what my antagonist's motivation really is.

I'm considering winging it and seeing where it goes. I was just wondering if anyone else has done this? If so, how did it go?


I was going to mention Stephen King, but the second poster got to him first.

I know right now that I'm winging my NaNoWriMo novel. I have no idea where the novel is going beyond Chapter 6, which is the next chapter I have to work on. I don't really even know where Chapter 6 is going to go.

That's part of the fun of winging a novel. I get to find little bits and pieces of story as I go along ... which I believe is what Mr. King actually talks about in his book On Writing.

I do outline some WIPs, but I find winging it to be a challenge and an enjoyable writing experience.

You might want to try it, and see if you like that method or not. Good luck to you, whatever method you choose.

:)

[Stew21]

I know what you mean. My outlines turn into roadmaps of places I didn't get anywhere near.
:raises hand:

I've done that!

[arodriguez]

no matter what, even if you have the ending in mind, you still wing it.
Can anyone honestly say that they know every word to type before they start and every piece of dialogue and scenery?
Even when you do get to the end, if you preimagined it, it doesnt quite work out the way you envisioned. The mind is the map, but the words are the wandering footsteps.

[wayndom]

An important factor in King's approach (which he mentions in On Writing) is that he doesn't proceed until he has a couple of characters fully formed in his mind. Once the characters are real to him, they chart the course that the story takes, and he follows them.

This has long been my "secret" to writing dialog -- I don't try to think of something for my characters to say, I let them say what they want, and I write down what they say.

King is downright hostile toward outlining, because an outlined plot doesn't allow the characters to follow their own course. That's the one danger I'm aware of in outlining, that in some cases, it can compel the writer to make her characters do things that are out of character or in some (of the many) other way behave unbelievably (to the reader).

Of course, it helps to have active characters who want something, or this approach could end up like real life, with characters sitting around talking to each other, maybe getting stoned or watching a movie on DVD...

[MichaelSt]

". . . or what my antagonist's motivation really is."

Shouldn't your story's primary motivation come from your protagonist? To grossly simplify the matter, the antagonist's job is to exemplify opposition to your protagonist's goals or motivation.

Is it possibly that you've not succeeded in anchoring your MC's needs firmly in place?

Michael, wondering, in Seattle.

[wayndom]

Can anyone honestly say that they know every word to type before they start and every piece of dialogue and scenery?

I once read an interview with R.L. Stine (author of bestselling YA thrillers), in which he boasted of how he outlines everything so thoroughly that by the time he writes the actual prose, he knows every single thing that's going to happen in every scene.

To me, that would suck all the life out of my story and make writing an unbearable chore.

Your mileage may vary.

[DVGuru]

King is downright hostile toward outlining, because an outlined plot doesn't allow the characters to follow their own course.

I read On Writing and he does frown upon outlining in it. I believe he says something along the lines of "plotting is a good writer's last resort and the dullard's first choice." However, I listened to an interview with Scott Smith, the author of A Simple Plan, and he said that King is a huge fan of the novel, and even traveled to NY to defend him on a talk show against the harsh criticism the novel received from some reviewers. Smith also mentions how he had a detailed thirty page outline for the novel. That didn't stop King from giving Smith a blurb, nor did it stop King from talking up Smith's new novel, The Ruins.

A good storyteller will tell a good story regardless of whether they outline or wing it.

[Cassidy]

I mostly wing it. And then when I (inevitably) get stuck I wish I had an outline. I vow to have a nice detailed outline the next time. But then I get an idea and I start writing like crazy and... yeah. It's like that.

[Wolvel]

My current wip started from an oddball paragraph I scribbled onto a piece of paper, it grew from there with no end or antagonist.

If anyone asks about the end, tell them to read the finished work to find out.

[Garpy]

The two most important parts to your story, imho, that you absolutely ought to know before you put pen to paper, are the beginning and the end. If you know where your journey starts, and the ultimate destination, then anything you put in between those things, that advances events, moves your characters from the beginning to the end, is the plot...anything that doesn't is padding. I've writtena novel like that, knowing only those two things, and it gave me a wonderfully spontaneous work that was funf to write, kept me guessing, and never ran off into a cul-de-sac that I had to dig myself out from.

This thread, (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83954) I suspect, is a prime example of what happens when you have a neat beginning but no clue of the ending.

[Judg]

I'm a halfie. I start of winging it completely, then outline about halfway through when I start to get realllly confused.

Three cheers for halfies! That's more or less how I've been doing it. I write till I'm stuck, "outline" (that is, come up with a series of ideas) till I'm stuck, write up the outline and as far past it as I can get till I'm stuck, outline again till I'm stuck... You get the idea.

[L M Ashton]

*coughs* *taps mic* Uh, hi. My name is quidscribis, and I'm a plotter. I plot in meticulous detail to the point of having 40 or 50 pages in an outline. I need it. I get blocked without it. And it does not kill my story for me.

I know others who completely wing it. In reality, what we do and what works for us is irrelevant. All that matters for you is what works for you and that particular story. :)

[Madison]

Um, I would die if I didn't outline. I'd write myself into an inescapable pit and never find the way out - I almost did that once, caught myself just in time. So I outline. Always. Always.

[daoine]

Tonight the question just happened to land on a bunch of "pantsers."

I guess I should've added that I'm one of the writers who outlines meticulously. But I do know that both options - pantsing and plotting - plus the third option (a bit of both) can work really well for the type of writer that it suits. Once you've figured out how you need to write to suit your personality, you've got it made.

Any method of writing is valid if it produces something worth reading.

I read On Writing and he does frown upon outlining in it. I believe he says something along the lines of "plotting is a good writer's last resort and the dullard's first choice."

And that really stuck in my craw when I read that, considering how much I respect writers who write differently to me. I would hope that King will reconsider that statement, because everyone is different, and different is good.

I just know that when I'm plotting my soul sings. When I write what I've plotted it's like watching bread bake - it wouldn't rise (for me) without all the hours of kneading and waiting beforehand.

no matter what, even if you have the ending in mind, you still wing it.
Can anyone honestly say that they know every word to type before they start and every piece of dialogue and scenery?
Even when you do get to the end, if you preimagined it, it doesnt quite work out the way you envisioned. The mind is the map, but the words are the wandering footsteps.

Yes, you're right. So much still surprises me, no matter how tightly I've plotted. I certainly don't need to know every word, and I've easily changed endings and let the characters run with new plot threads. It's a balance between knowing where you're going and knowing when to let go and let the story happen.

An important factor in King's approach (which he mentions in On Writing) is that he doesn't proceed until he has a couple of characters fully formed in his mind. Once the characters are real to him, they chart the course that the story takes, and he follows them.

This has long been my "secret" to writing dialog -- I don't try to think of something for my characters to say, I let them say what they want, and I write down what they say.

King is downright hostile toward outlining, because an outlined plot doesn't allow the characters to follow their own course. That's the one danger I'm aware of in outlining, that in some cases, it can compel the writer to make her characters do things that are out of character or in some (of the many) other way behave unbelievably (to the reader).

Yes, it is important to be careful not to box your characters in - and I guess King probably saw such a lot of that happening and this is probably where his comment comes from.

It is a balancing act if you're going to plot. Maybe freewriting is easier to get right, I don't know. For me, I prefer to weave layer upon layer of plot threads and tighten them all in the first and subsequent drafts. But I would never tell another writer that this is the only way to write. :)

[Shadow_Ferret]

I can't write an outline. To write the outline you need to know where the story is going. When I write I have no idea what I'm writing, where it's going, or how it's going to end. I'd love to have a map, it might relieve some of the anxiety I have about writing about the unknown.

[Theognome]

For me, it depends on the scope of what I'm writing. When I'm doing an article or a short, I just let the words fall where they may. No outline of any kind.

However, when I started my current WIP, I very quickly realized that the sheer size of the story was unwieldable without some kind of road map. I have a lot to tell, and without an outline I got easily sidetracked into subplots, wordy landscape descriptions and the like. Thus the flow of the plot became obscured. A detailed outline, along with lots of research notes, helped me to tame this lion.

Theognome

[Sean D. Schaffer]

For me, it depends on the scope of what I'm writing. When I'm doing an article or a short, I just let the words fall where they may. No outline of any kind.

However, when I started my current WIP, I very quickly realized that the sheer size of the story was unwieldable without some kind of road map. I have a lot to tell, and without an outline I got easily sidetracked into subplots, wordy landscape descriptions and the like. Thus the flow of the plot became obscured. A detailed outline, along with lots of research notes, helped me to tame this lion.

Theognome


Bolding Mine.

When I outline, I've noticed that my writing becomes kind of stilted if I give too much detail. Because of this, I now give my outlines a basic sense of where the story is going, instead of giving intense details. I personally cannot have every move dictated to me before I create my work. It robs me, to an extent, of my desire to write and my ability to create.

Of course, that's just me. :)

[Siddow]

"I've come to the conclusion, that even at very high levels, everyone is winging it." JoNightshade

Sorry Jo, that line is still in my head and I had to put it somewhere. :D

[Roanoke]

I roughly outline about the first two or three chapters and wing it from there. Mostly because I like the characters to drive the plot and when I start I just don't know them well enough. Partly because I like not knowing as much as the reader and it keeps me interested.

[David I]

This is one of those questions that will come up a million times, and will elicit a million answers if, they were honest, would form a continuum between "clueless" and "outline every paragraph."

Our distinguished Garpy spans the breach, needing a beginning and an ending, which is at least refreshing. And Susan Sontag wrote with only an ending line of dialogue--but no clue which character would utter it.

At one extreme, Don Westlake started one of his best novels (Point Blank, written as Richard Stark) with no idea who the character was or what the situation was. Lest you dimsiis this as unliterary, let me note Faulkner did likewise. At the other extreme, writers like Elizabeth George and Richard Prather have written novels where the books as published were little more than an endlessly fleshed-out outline.

The real problem is to find what works for you.

And, distressingly, agonizingly: what works for you in one novel may not work in the next.

Does this business suck, or what?

[sanctuary6284]

Sorry I've been gone. I had networking issues.

Thanks for all this advice and the boost of confidence you've given me. I really feel ready to write now. I'll just start and see where my characters take me.

[blacbird]

I'm having a little problem. I know how I want my story to start, but I don't really know where it's going (the end) or what my antagonist's motivation really is.

I'm considering winging it and seeing where it goes. I was just wondering if anyone else has done this? If so, how did it go?

Bazillions of writers, including many famous and obscenely successful ones, work this way (Steve King, John Saul, come immediately to mind). Me do that too, although I don't frequent the same circles as King and Saul. Not even the same triangles.

Other writers, bazillions of them, need to outline fastidiously, and then write-by-number to fill in the framework (Terry Brooks is a fanatic about this, but then he was a corporate lawyer before getting into writing fantasy fiction).

I also know a person who tries to write, and who, with great facility, produces outline after outline, in excruciating detail, and for whom the writing part of writing produces nothing but the most dreadful dreck.

Point being: you gotta find what works for you, what engages your creative energy and results in getting words produced that make sense and might engage readers. There be no cookbook.

caw

[KarlaErikaCal]

I definitely did this with my WIP that's finished but I'm still editing. The only thingj for me about not planning things out first, was that I ended up going up to chapter 10 in my first draft, realize it was a mess, so I edited/revised the whole thing. I'd revise over and over again. I think I had 7 unfinished drafts. Soon I stuck with the 8th one and I kept writing and writing, just fixing things along the way, then when I reached chapter 15 of a 16 chapter book, I figured out my ending. I guess you can say that I h ad a bit of success with winging it, but I wouldn't do it again because rewriting over and over again bugged me, because every time stopped I tried to give up but kept going. Good thing I kept going because I absolutely love my novel.

I hope you have success with winging it ;]

[Wraith]

And, distressingly, agonizingly: what works for you in one novel may not work in the next.
Yes, yes, yes! So this is normal! What a relief. I am not going crazy, yet.

My first important wip, that's on hold now, started off from a spiffy outline (that still allowed me to wing it when needed); then it was left to gather dust for an uncalled for project that I am currently happily winging. Of course, after the first couple of pages I figured out the end roughly, which helps, and I'm considering character sheets right now, but the idea of an outline still puts me off. And I don't know why. I used to like outlining, just not for this story.

:Shrug:

Whatever works.

Good luck winging it. If you're stuck, consider an outline (or at least figuring out the key scenes of the plot), but don't let it take the fun out of writing.

[Miguelito]

I know how it's going to start.

I know how it's going to end.

I just have no idea how it's going to get from one to the other. That's where the fun lies.

[truelyana]

Three cheers for halfies! That's more or less how I've been doing it. I write till I'm stuck, "outline" (that is, come up with a series of ideas) till I'm stuck, write up the outline and as far past it as I can get till I'm stuck, outline again till I'm stuck... You get the idea.

This is how I have been writing my NaNo this year. One moment I'm flowing, then within a period of 24 hours I'm stuck. I somehow can't get back into the same essence of flowing. When I work out what to write, then it seems to flow. Halfies seem to be working for me, it also makes the story come out easier. When the flow starts to pour on it's own again to repeat it's cycle, no outline is needed. :)

[arkady]

I don't use outlines, but when I was writing my novel I knew where it began and where it was going to end, as well as a few details in between. That's not an outline, but I did have some idea of where it was going. I think it's a good idea to have at least a vague outline in your head.

Agreed. That's exactly how I write, and I find that details, subplots and new characters all appear when they're needed.

[MMWyrm]

The two most important parts to your story, imho, that you absolutely ought to know before you put pen to paper, are the beginning and the end.

I agree with Garpy... at least it is how I work. I start with a main character - the protagonist - and find out what he wants... what his ultimate goal is. That is the end. All the stuff in the middle is a mystery slowly unveiled as I go along.