requesting BRUTAL feedback

[David Erlewine]

I've written about covert stuttering in numerous stories. Covert stuttering is the term for people like me who often stutter silently by changing words around, not speaking up, living "shams" of lives they would ordinarily live if they weren't such chicken shits. Okay, that's obviously a bit over the top but you get the point.

Now, many "non-covert" stutterers exhibit some of the symptoms of covert stutterers but some/many don't have the "luxury" of hiding their stutter b/c even changing words around will result in obvious stuttering/facial twitching, etc.

So, my idea for a novel is written in the "form" of a memoir of a covert serial stutterer who blocks at a critical time as passenger in a car, resulting in the deaths of his wife and kids. This essentially results in a catastrophic change in his personality where he blames all the speech therapists (who couldn't help him and even some who got annoyed with him) as well as bullies who "tortured" him in school by making fun of his stutter, inability to say his name, etc. He sets out to punish some/all of them by kidnapping them one at a time and torturing them by doing things like "teaching" them to stutter and then making them tell jokes without stuttering while under severe stress (while a gun is held to their heads, etc.). Of course it starts off with him doing this to make them feel what he has felt his whole life but soon he realizes that the angrier he gets and more bullying the better his speech is. This propels him to more violence, etc.

Now, some of this "memoir" would be based on my life experiences (no, i've never kidnapped anyone and thankfully i've never caused anyone's death due to a block) but i've done some research where other stutterers have said that getting really angry often, oddly enough, results in enhanced fluency. Also, at least one serial killer profiler has stated the first "tell" of a serial killer is that he has a stutter (since such stutter often involves feelings of powerlessness and an isolated childhood where fantasies of power are often experienced).

So, does this sound like a possibility of an interesting novel? Does the form of "memoir" sound like a possibility. I have found that stutterers like myself become very good writers to make up for their poor speaking and many therapists have opined that covert stuttering is far more psychologically damaging than regular stuttering because the covert stutterer is constantly living in fear of being "outed" and living in fear is far worse than stuttering outright.

In any event, ANY thoughts whatsoever would be appreciated. This may not be the proper way of asking the question but in way or the other I've been thinking about a novel about stuttering for oh about the last 8 years. Sometimes I think I should take advantage of my journalistic roots and write some non-fiction freelance articles (or maybe a book) about stuttering. I feel like the idea of covert stuttering greatly lends itself to the first-person story b/c the reader knows how much is going on inside the head of the person but then sees via dialogue, action, etc. how limited such a life can be.

Thank you. And my wife and mother in law are yelling up at me to get my son under control so they can cook. Otherwise I'd shred this post down to a much more readable size...

[Thump]

Brutal feeback? I HATE YOU! YOU STUTTETING F-F-Freak!

Just kidding ;) I have that too but not too badly. Speech therapy as a kid helped me a lot actually. *shrug*

But yeah, it sounds like it would make a really interesting novel. Not sure about writing it like his memoir since then the reader would know how he ends up before the story starts.

[David Erlewine]

I snuck back upstairs with my son in tow and he's now playing quietly with legos and I got a response already instead of a reminder that I'm also an obsessive freak to boot! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yeah, I hear you about the memoir. What I was thinking (but didn't say) was that the obviously fictional memoirs would be written by him as he's committing these crimes since he knows he'll get caught eventually and wants to keep things documented. While some great speakers doing such things might be youtubing every incident, for obvious reasons the narrator feels more comfortable with the written word.

The more I think about it, the less I think it needs to be in the form of memoirs. I think a first person novel may do the trick just fine. Thanks again!

[WittyandorIronic]

I think the plot/character sounds really interesting!! That sounds lame, lol, hence the two exclamation points, but I was immediately interested in the story, and wanted to know more.
I don't know about the memoir portion...it would make it more difficult, and would have to be done really well to maintain my interest. Is there a reason you are hesitant to do it just as a novel?

[David Erlewine]

Our posts crossed! After reading yours I'm even less inclined to do it as a memoir! I think a straight novel would do the trick, if there is a trick to be done. Much appreciate your thoughts and SOOO happy to hear it sounds interesting to you!!

Okay, now I really am in hot water b/c I think I was supposed to have done something called mashing the potatoes instead of going for a very long jog this a.m. while others were sleeping. Thanks again to anyone reading this writing in!

[Wraith]

Nothing to say really apart from the fact that it sounds great and a wonderful thing to read in 1st person. I'm intrigued by the block part and the guilt that follows - I think you have a lot of interesting psychology potential there and it makes perfect sense. Writing him as a covert stutterer will probably be a challenge (showing what he thinks and what his life really is), but all the more interesting. Best of luck with it!

(...that was brutal, wasn't it?)

[JeanneTGC]

You want brutal? Here's brutal.

Stop asking permission to write your great ideas. If it interests YOU and you write it WELL the likelihood is that it will interest others. Don't write by concensus unless you're on a TV show and you have to. The more time you spend asking everyone else's permission and thoughts, the less time you are spending ON the WIP.

Does it sound interesting? Sure. Will it be a hit? Who knows? Brilliant cannibal doesn't sound like my cuppa, but I note that Silence of the Lambs did amazingly well as a book and a movie. BUT it doesn't matter unless you start it, work at it, finish it, edit it, and send it out for publication (if that's the goal). And what the rest of us think of it also doesn't matter, unless one of us is an agent, editor or publisher of the genre you're writing in. :D

So, eat your turkey and write your book, dammit. So we can all go, "oooh, I remember when he had that idea!"

*This has been a paid for, requested brutality. Subsidized in part by the Writers Against Having to Clean and Cook on Thanksgiving League. We now return you to your regularly scheduled festivities.*

[donut]

The reason people generally write memoirs is to reflect on experiences that happened some time ago -- perhaps they felt one way about it at the time, but with the time and experience, they now have a different perspective. Would that be a useful construct for your character? Does he want to look back over a life of humiliation followed by brutality, and process those experiences with hindsight?

That approach could work -- Nabokov's Lolita is in the form of a memoir, in which the main character looks back over his crimes and tries to explain/excuse himself.

But the way the story is coming across to me, I wonder if it might not work better in diary or journal form -- maybe intercut with newspaper articles about his crimes? That way, we'd get a more immediate insight into his state of mind as he gradually gets more violent.

In fact, if you're interested in playing with narrative structure, it might be cool to write it as "scrapbook" the killer is keeping to remember/commemorate his feelings, experiences, and crimes. Maybe he'd write a few pages about his own feelings or memories, then paste in a letter or something from his victim's house, then paste in the police report or newspaper articles... I dunno, just an idea.

[a_sharp]

Of course the idea sounds intriguing, but my first thought was how to maintain reader sympathy for the MC. It starts off well enough, where he's a victim of his affliction, but when he starts torturing and killing people, he crosses a line where society stops forgiving and renders him brutal.

Now, if your MC is someone who is tracking down the covert stutterer and solving his crimes, you have a different sort of story that maintains reader interest in the stutterer's condition and helps readers understand him but not sympathize with his inhuman extremes.

If I read the other posts right, there's a lot of interest in the stutterer's condition and his progression, but to me that's a clinical interest. You have the makings of a unique serial killer or seriously flawed abuser--whatever. But consider how your reader will regard his so-called solution to his dilemma.

[David Erlewine]

Wraith, Jeanne and Donut,

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR THOUGHTS AND IDEAS!

Greatly, greatly appreciated.

I really like the idea of playing with the structure a bit, Donut. I may have to think of that. And Jeanne, I will get to work so I can at least say I have a WIP and not just a "great idea" I keep thinking about it in my head but not telling anyone about (irony methinks).

[David Erlewine]

Wow, another great idea A Sharp. I think the idea maybe of the profiler "learning" about stuttering could fill in some interesting information from a more clinical perspective that helps the reader. That would be a lot better, I think, than a first person POV where the narrator is "educating" the readers about stuttering. Maybe some of the chapters can be in 3rd person pov as the investigator searches and then some in 1st person pov (from the narrator). Well, anyway I gotta run before I get divorced so everyone have a great gobble gobble day. David

[Wraith]

I don't know, 1st person still sounds better to me. Hard to pull off, but worth it. You'd have a villain as your MC which your readers don't have to like, but to understand and to be gripped by so badly that it's a love/hate thing going on. A_sharp makes good points, but still, there are books with villains as main characters who are very good and interesting. Not all genres/books need an MC for the readers to root for - just an interesting one.

The thing with that would be to get inside his head so completely that his inhuman actions make sense. I would personally be more fascinated with that than a more common investigator's perspective. I would be amazed by a writer who can show me this horrible person's internal logic and motives, who can make him human for me. A ride with such a MC would be a haunting thing. Making me understand the "solution" he came up with would be amazing. Not sympathize, just understand. That's a book that'd be staying with me a long time.

There's also the fact that I can't see a better way to show the stuttering and how it affects him. There's no need to explain in a very clear or clinical way, or "educate"; showing his feelings, thoughts, his frustration and his need to hide it is enough, and would make us care for him. Make us feel his despair when he makes that tragic mistake, then let us watch a character we pretty much sympathise with going downwards because of guilt and frustration. Let us watch the way he grows colder and less human with every crime. Hard as hell to do, probably - but if you're interested in it and feel you can do it, why step away from it?

I think it'd be best to write this idea as it came to you. Try getting inside his head and see if you can find his voice, if it flows. Without sitting down to write you won't be able to decide the way the story needs to be told. We all have opinions, but every story can be told in countless ways. Do it the way that feels more natural to you, and get down to it already. :) (After enjoying the turkey, of course).

[David Erlewine]

THANK YOU WRAITH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, I am so indebted to you (and others on here) for taking me seriously and giving me such informed thoughtful responses. I REALLY like what you say and feel so inspired right now that I hate to have to run back to the table. I am upstairs on "unexcused leave" so I have to get back. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

[David I]

I have found that stutterers like myself become very good writers to make up for their poor speaking

Indeed. Somerset Maugham and John Updike, right off hand.

I think you have a very good idea here, but you need to think hard about the structure. Do you perhaps need multi-3rd POV? Dual 1st-person POV (John Fowles' The Collector wouldn't have worked without using that approach).

But I'm with the majority here--probably a memoir is the least effective form.

Good luck on this one. I'll buy it.

[ishtar'sgate]

This would make a good first person psychological thriller as your character sinks into a kind of madness, probably keeping one step ahead of the authorities until he's finally captured.
Linnea

[David Erlewine]

I should clarify that my quote about stutterers "like myself" was not in any way intended to claim I am a good writer! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

THANK YOU. I am definitely off the memoir angle!! I will definitely give considerably more thought to the form.

Great reference on Updike. My creative writing prof in college saw him give a reading. He started the reading with a caveat to please not "help" him if he got stuck on a word. Reminds me of the time a speech therapist told a guy in our class to "slow down!" and then bristled when I commented that no point coming here and paying for that advice when we can get that anytime from strangers. Oh yeah, I thought of saying that but didn't. Not so much a covert stuttering moment as much as a Costanza "shrimp" moment.

[mkcbunny]

I don't have any brutal offerings to add on me, but I did want to mention that I find the idea intriguing. Good luck with figuring out the best approach.

Reminded me of Motherless Brooklyn, which I'm reading now. Not a serial killer, but a criminal with Tourette Syndrome, which manifests in a variety of ways. Told in first person. Excellent handling of that character's PoV, though I can't really tell about the story arc since I'm only a couple of chapters in. But if you haven't read it, it's worth a gander.

And maybe The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time. First person, autistic teenager.

Both books get you inside the head of a person who thinks in a unique, compulsive way. Both have something of a thriller/mystery element to them, though they're really character portraits.

[David Erlewine]

Thank you Mkcbunny!!!! I have not read anywhere near as much recently as I want/should, but both books you mention I have read and GREATLY ENJOYED, especially Motherless Brooklyn. Thank you for your encouragement and kind wishes! Take care, David

[CheshireCat]

You want brutal? Here's brutal.

Stop asking permission to write your great ideas. If it interests YOU and you write it WELL the likelihood is that it will interest others. Don't write by concensus unless you're on a TV show and you have to. The more time you spend asking everyone else's permission and thoughts, the less time you are spending ON the WIP. *** So, eat your turkey and write your book, dammit. So we can all go, "oooh, I remember when he had that idea!"

*This has been a paid for, requested brutality. Subsidized in part by the Writers Against Having to Clean and Cook on Thanksgiving League. We now return you to your regularly scheduled festivities.*

What she said.

I honestly don't get this apparently widespread urge in aspiring authors to run their ideas by others to invite opinions.

I mean, WTF?

ANY idea can work brilliantly if it's well done. Our job is to take our ideas and turn them into good stories. If YOU are enthusiastic enough about an idea to do the work, then do it.

There are no guarantees and there are no shortcuts.

[David Erlewine]

If YOU are enthusiastic enough about an idea to do the work, then do it. There are no guarantees and there are no shortcuts.



10-4, over and out. I am going to get started tonight. It will be a long couple of years but I am going to at least do a first draft of this novel, regardless of whether I hate it and the concept the entire time.

[WittyandorIronic]

What she said.

I honestly don't get this apparently widespread urge in aspiring authors to run their ideas by others to invite opinions.

I mean, WTF?

ANY idea can work brilliantly if it's well done. Our job is to take our ideas and turn them into good stories. If YOU are enthusiastic enough about an idea to do the work, then do it.

There are no guarantees and there are no shortcuts.



Mmm...while I understand that writers should grow to not need idea validation, I think it is totally understandable that new writers (me too) seek it out. If you are an established author you have sold stories, which means not only can you write a publishable book, but your ideas are marketable. That is a constant validation. As a new, unpublished writer I don't have any track record or history that says, "Yes, what you write is interesting and readers will actually want to read it."
I mean, if I really only cared about my own opinion I would keep my stories in my head or on my computer and never even glance at the publishing industry. But I want others to like my stories as well, and as my internal barometer for story interest is untested I want to make sure that what I WANT to do is something others will enjoy.

[wayndom]

It's a terrific but dangerous idea. Terrific because it mines an area of life that I for one have never seen explored before, and can give the rest of us insight into what it's like for others. (My favorite novels are those that show the reader the world through the eyes of someone or -thing utterly unlike oursleves; for example, Shogun, Gorky Park, Interview With the Vampire.)

It's dangerous because you run the very real risk of making your protagonist unlikable, which is instant death. Your choices are make the MC the villain, in which case he has to be stopped (and hopefully feels remorse over what he's done), or make his tormentors truly evil (much worse than simple bullies), so the reader isn't too offended by what he does to them. But even if his tormentors are totally evil, he'd have to turn away from his chosen path before the end of the story.

This is a problem in any good vs. evil story in which the evil factor must be destroyed. We've all seen stories in which the hero is "above" killing the villain, so the villain ends up accidentally killing himself by rushing at the hero and tripping and falling on his own weapon, or missing the hero and diving off a cliff. These cliches exist because audiences want unambiguous good vs. evil, and a good guy who murders even the worst bad guys is tainted by his actions, and at the very least must experience life-changing remorse, or the audience won't be able to be on his side.

In your brief description, the story appears to be entirely about the MC and how his actions affect himself. For the story to work, the MC must also, at some point, go beyond caring about himself and care about others, too, including those he's taken revenge on. Aside from making him acceptable to readers, it would also make the story itself a lot richer, IMO.

Bottom line: A great idea, but a tricky one that will require a lot of work to pull off.

[David Erlewine]

Thank you very much Wittyandorironic! I started to write something similar to CheshireCat but then decided against it. Part of the reason for the original thread is that I've had this stuttering novel idea rattling around in my head for so long now that I feared if I didn't gauge any interest than for the next 5-10 years while working full time and parenting full time I'd probably just keep thinking about the novel occasionally, mainly out of repressed anger at not writing it and not finding out if it's even a decent topic to consider as a "theme"/foundation for the novel! Much appreciate your initial comments and your follow-up ones. I have written several stories about covert stuttering but never gotten any sense (other than a few Zoetrope reviews and/or getting one published) how readers/writers identified with them. Cheers. David

[wayndom]

Afterthought: The Man From St. Petersburg, by Ken Follett, had the opposite problem: the villain was so sympathetic that the reader doesn't want to see him killed (even though killing him was almost a foregone conclusion, given the story progression). Follett handled the conundrum brilliantly, finding a way to eliminate the threat the villain posed without losing the reader's sympathy for the hero. Don't want to say how it was pulled off, because I think you'd do well to read it, since it's an excellent lesson in how to make a sympathetic villain, and how to pull off a satisfying denouement from an ambiguous situation.

[jasperd]

I've recently seen a novel come out that dealt with fears (agoraphobia) which I guess is kind or related and it's doing well. I think I'm in the same boat as you. I just started stuttering at 31 but I can change my words around before anyone notices. It does run in my family, though.

[CheshireCat]

Mmm...while I understand that writers should grow to not need idea validation, I think it is totally understandable that new writers (me too) seek it out. If you are an established author you have sold stories, which means not only can you write a publishable book, but your ideas are marketable. That is a constant validation. As a new, unpublished writer I don't have any track record or history that says, "Yes, what you write is interesting and readers will actually want to read it."
I mean, if I really only cared about my own opinion I would keep my stories in my head or on my computer and never even glance at the publishing industry. But I want others to like my stories as well, and as my internal barometer for story interest is untested I want to make sure that what I WANT to do is something others will enjoy.

Well, first, if you're seeking "validation" of your ideas from other writers, I have to ask why. Another writer not only can't tell you whether your idea is marketable, but is too-often groping in the same dark uncertainty as you are yourself, creatively as well as regarding technique. They might be able to tell you if the idea interests them, but so what?

The point is that if you hope to create a book from the idea stage to, at the very least, a complete and polished manuscript, the only voice you should be listening to in shaping that idea is the one in your head.

How on earth is any writer supposed to develop a distinct and personal voice if he or she is listening to dozens of other voices telling them what is right or wrong or weak or strong in a developing idea? That's the first stage of becoming a writer, listening to the story unfolding in your head.

Will the idea work? You won't know until you try. I've been doing this for more than twenty years, and I'm never sure at the beginning if the idea will pan out at all, much less turn out to be what I hope it turns out to be. I don't ask anybody if my idea is a good one; if it appeals to me, if it's a story I need to tell, then that's enough for me.

So, no, being published doesn't help there, except in the very broadest sense: The published author knows that he or she has produced marketable works -- and that's all.

The unpublished writer finds out if he or she can produce marketable work by submitting that work to the market -- not by picking ideas out of a hat until three or more other people agree it "sounds interesting."

In my opinion, of course.

[David Erlewine]

The unpublished writer finds out if he or she can produce marketable work by submitting that work to the market -- not by picking ideas out of a hat until three or more other people agree it "sounds interesting."

In my opinion, of course.[/quote]


Thanks for this post, CC, if I may call you that. I know you were not responding directly to my post but I am very interested by your posts and thought I'd comment. I'm in a weird place in my life, writing wise. I have had about 30 short stories (about half flashes) published over the years, and I've written one novel that got a bit of interest from agents but ultimately was never picked for representation (possibly suggested rewrites from one or two might have netted me representation but I chose not to). I have a second baby on the way and I practice law full-time and quite frankly I find that I'm a much better husband, man, attorney, father, etc. when I'm not writing and not thinking of stories and not staying up late past everyone else to write, and not shushing my son who wants to show me something so that I can jot something key down about a potential side character in a potential story. I also find that my speech is better when I'm not dredging up past memories (subconsciously or not) and/or focusing on my speech "struggles" at work, which I seem to focus more on when I'm writing about stuttering in stories. So if I'm going to seriously undertake a novel on a very personal and painful aspect of my life, I thought it might be a good idea to get some insight from other writers on here whether "in theory" they could at least "see" the possibility of a novel that sounded interesting.

I do hear you about having to write something that is in your own voice and that interests you and that comes from your mind and is not simply something that you are going to do SIMPLY b/c a few others find it interesting. But I don't think running an idea by other writers to see if it's something interesting is all that different than shooting the shit with friends over drinks and telling them about a plan of yours to get into gambling as a "second income" or asking someone at another law firm what the "skinny" is on the firm right at that moment if you're considering joining the firm. Of course these aren't apples to apples but I get the sense that you are very "close to the vest" about your writing, which hey if it works for you that's great. I grew up in writing groups and I guess sometimes I like to talk about something I'm planning to undertake. Thanks again for joining this discussion. David

[deathwizard]

I think it's an amazing concept. Brilliant, even. Don't tell anyone else. Just write it and make a million! And I'm being sincere, not sarcastic.

"a sharp" does bring up a good point, though. Seems to me the way to create sympathy for the MC would be to incorporate just enough back story to make the reader despise anyone who would tease or bully a person with such an unfortunate affliction. In that regard, the MC would become heroic, in a twisted sort of way. Very powerful stuff.

[David Erlewine]

Thank you, Death Wizard. I am very happy to read your words, particularly since I just made sure my wife and son are both asleep and I now plan to start writing the first draft of this puppy. THANK YOU AGAIN.

Your e-mail gave me a good laugh (the part where you said don't tell anyone and just write it). :)

David