(Decent/Good) Book Advances?

[LordDelusions]

Hey everyone.
I'm a first time poster, long time reader of these boards and find them to be useful, and its interesting to read about other people's progress. And I'm not sure if this is the right section, but it says "Writing Novels" and figured the following deals with it.

I have 2 novels planned (started writing one but took a break and now started another), with 3 more in mind.

However, I've been wondering for sometime, lets say you have an agent who will go whatever distant he/she can to get you a good publisher (like Simon and Schuster, or Hyperion), what are the average book advances for each of the genres?

YA
Fantasy
Historical
Childrens'
Chick-lit (wouldn't ask about this but i have a good friend who's writing one or two or three, and she's really into it)
(am i missing any?)

And for those of you in this stage, mind giving us some insight as to how the book advance number comes into a reasonable amount/how much you expected compared to how much you got?

[Momento Mori]

I don't think there are any hard and fast rules for calculating advances as an advance is generally what the market thinks the manuscript's worth and whether a publisher thinks they can make money from it. Saying that, from conversations I've had with agents, publishers and authors, with YA and childrens', you shouldn't go in expecting too much money.

With childrens' books (and depending on what age group you're aiming at), in the UK it seems that you can expect on average an advance of £1,500 (which on current exchange rates is roughly 3,000 USD). If you're an experienced writer (e.g. I know a childrens' writer who used to write for childrens' tv) you can get more (circa £5,000), but you'd only get more than that if you had 2 or more publishers willing to bid for it.

YA fiction doesn't seem to have much in the way of hard and fast rules for advances (at least, not in the UK). I know one writer who got a £10,000 advance for a 2 book deal and another who went to auction and made over £250,000 with a proposed series after 3 publishers bid for it. Needless to say, I hate him. In general though, you shouldn't count on making more than £5,000 for YA but you never know what the interest will be.

In general though, you shouldn't be going into writing expecting to become a millionaire. Many writers end up still needing a day job to pay their bills. Plus there's always the school of thought that you should go for a smaller advance on a debut novel because it increases the chances that you will earn out and therefore get future projects accepted.

MM

[David I]

This is a little old, from right around 2000 as I recall. I cannot get this table to format right in this window, so it will be a little funky:

National Writer's Union Survey: "Typical" Fiction Advances

AVERAGE:
Hardcover $19,745
Paperback $14,135
Mystery $13,900
Romance $6,400
Sci Fiction $19,900
Western $5,700
Young Adult $6,100

TYPICAL LOW END:

Hardcover $5,000
Paperback $1,500
Mystery $5,000
Romance $1,000
Sci Fiction $3,500
Western $1,500
Young Adult $1,000

Keep in mind that a) this averages established authors in with newbies, and, b) sales of debut novels tend to be on the decline. This is sort of like averaging Tom Cruise in with your Cousin Billy Bob and talking about "actor's salaries."

If there is a relationship between "good publishers" and advances, I've never heard about it.

In the US, the average income from writing of people who classify themselves as professional writers is around $5,000 per year. In Britain, they do better, at around $11,000 per year.

Yes, there are six-figure advances out there. And three-figure advances. And neither of them correlate well with future success.

Stephen King got $2,500 for his first novel, Carrie. (That's less than $9,000 in today's money.) JK Rowling got 3,000 pounds for the first Harry Potter. John Grisham got a whopping $15,000 for his first book, from a small press (Wynwood) which promptly went bankrupt.

Across time, the bestselling authors have seldom if ever been those who got large advances for their first books.

Frankly, I think this is possibly the last thing in the world you should be worrying about. Or even thinking about.

[Garpy]

I'd echo that. You're in for a lifetime of disappointment if this is a get rich scheme. I don't write for money, I write because I want an audience. The money that comes in helps me do that by not needing to spend monday-friday flipping burgers somewhere. That said...I live modestly and will do for some time to come.

[KTC]

yeah. I write to write. If I ever get a novel published the money will be a side effect. I have never considered advances. I always figured they would just vary widely depending on the publisher, the book, the author, the everything. Not my concern. I would say just get them ready for the publisher and submit. Whatever happens, happens...

[seun]

I'm in this for the girls and the drugs and the rock and roll.

Although I'd settle for a cup of coffee and a back rub.

[Garpy]

:-) Heck, that's what got me into books.

[Joe Moore]

The average advance for a first novel is $5k. Here are a couple of helpful links:

http://www.karenafox.com/money.htm

http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2005/10/05/author-advance-survey-version-20/

[Shady Lane]

See, that's not a lot to you guys, but my mind's reeling at what I could do with five thousand dollars...man, it's great not to support myself...

[ACEnders]

That's not a lot of it's your only source of income. But since my husband and I both have fulltime jobs, the thought of getting a check for 5k is great! We can pay off some credit cards, and I want to give some to my husband to get all caught up on his private pilot ratings. Maybe a vacation. Obviously, not all of those things, but those are options of things we can do that we can't do now if, Lord willing, I get someone to buy my novel.

[WittyandorIronic]

A little OT, but oh well. :)

I am far from having anyone pick my novel up, as in still in first draft FAR. But I did mention to my husband that if I ever got that far, and someone did buy my novel, we were going on vacation to wherever that novel was set. On the off chance that I truly did not want to visit that locale, than it would be to wherever my NEXT novel would be set and we would write it off as a business expense since it was research. lol.

[imagoodgurl4]

I agree 5K is not a huge advance, but I work full-time with a good job that pays well and comes with great benefits, so 5K would definitely come in handy to put towards some of those pesky school loans I have.

But I write mostly to write, because I enjoy telling a story. I know the delight I feel when I just can't put a book down. It's one of the best feelings in the world (sex is the other, haha). That will mean more to me than a big fat check (but hey, if someone is willing to give me one for my book, I won't say no, lol).

I think though, if you get hung up on how much money you'll make by selling a book, then you're going to have difficulty finishing your novel. Just worry about telling your story and making it the best you can and then worry about getting an agent....and then, if you manage to do all that, you can worry about your book advance. Just my two cents. :)

[WordGypsy]

Love that sig haha! Especially cuz I used to be a flight attendant out of Chicago! Anyway. Don't concentrate on money. Dream big but think small. I'm dreaming of a significant deal, but I'm trying to convince myself I'll only get about $5,000. That way I'll be ecstatic whatever I get. Yes, people do get huge advances. It happens. But it's not only based on the writing. It's a lottery ticket. You have to be at the right place at the right time with the right story to the right agent to the right publishing house. It all has to fall exactly into place. Just write the novel and see what happens. Even if I only get $2,000 that's money I didn't have before!

[Hillary]

However, I've been wondering for sometime, lets say you have an agent who will go whatever distant he/she can to get you a good publisher (like Simon and Schuster, or Hyperion), what are the average book advances for each of the genres?

My mother's agent is a hotshot. HOTSHOT. Like, clears over half a million on some children's book deals. (No, not my mother's. Not even remotely close.)

But he easily got her in (with her children's books) with Scholastic and Hyperion/Disney. He also hooked her up with Harcourt for her debut adult novel. And, like I said, he can command HUGE advances from publishers. When he talks, they listen. But my mother doesn't really want a big advance, ever. Not interested, no thanks. (At least not until she's a household name, I suppose. Then it might be nice!)

The thing is, it's not about a big advance. It just isn't. One advance, essentially, means nothing. If you have a dream of writing for money, it means long-haul and waiting for royalty statements that aren't in the red. So smaller advances work to your benefit. You look like less of a liability to current and future publishers if you're easily able to sell out your advance. You're more likely to sell a second book if your first one sold out its advance early on in publication. And it's all about selling that second book.

[ORION]

um...those who think if your 5000 advance means you get 5000 - it doesn't-...sub taxes (state and fed as a sole proprietor you pay 15% self employment tax plus your 15% agents commission.Then you typically do not get that advance all on signing - usually you get half on signing and the other on D&A (delivery and acceptance of the final manuscript) If it's a 2 book deal it can even stretch out longer... sometimes you don't get part until publication which can be over a year...
trying to estimate an advance is like budgeting for your potential lottery winnings...

[KTC]

um...those who think if your 5000 advance means you get 5000 - it doesn't-...sub taxes (state and fed as a sole proprietor you pay 15% self employment tax plus your 15% agents commission.Then you typically do not get that advance all on signing - usually you get half on signing and the other on D&A (delivery and acceptance of the final manuscript) If it's a 2 book deal it can even stretch out longer... sometimes you don't get part until publication which can be over a year...
trying to estimate an advance is like budgeting for your potential lottery winnings...

Hey you. I bought your book at Chapters today. I was waiting for my wife to arrive at the mall (30 minutes late!!!!) and I slipped into Chapters to browse. Deadly store to browse in. I came away with Lottery and a Paul Auster...God, I love that guy. Anyway...I got into a discussion about them still charging the Canada price for books there. They said, "But we're putting them all on at 30% off so it's actually under the US Price." I said, "Really. All of them. Because I saw that sticker on about 30-40 books?" Them: hem/haw/hem/haw. Long story short....too late...I told them I will buy Lottery but other purchases I will go to WalMart for until they come to their senses. (The Auster book was on for $5!) Anyway...I was afraid WalMart wouldn't have it in stock, so I bought it for the Canada price of $31. But I waved my finger at them in a very nasty way as I ran my debit card through the machine.

I look forward to reading your book.

End of derailment.

[Stew21]

getting an advance is the furthest thing from my mind, even as I prepare my query letter.
Money is a side effect of being passionate about writing.

One of these days maybe that side effect will kick in, until then the compulsion to write and the insanity of submitting will be it for me.

Advance? my advance is the advancement of my skills as a writer as I keep writing whether I get paid for it or not.

[CheshireCat]

The thing is, it's not about a big advance. It just isn't. One advance, essentially, means nothing. If you have a dream of writing for money, it means long-haul and waiting for royalty statements that aren't in the red. So smaller advances work to your benefit. You look like less of a liability to current and future publishers if you're easily able to sell out your advance. You're more likely to sell a second book if your first one sold out its advance early on in publication. And it's all about selling that second book.

With all due respect to your mother, and to your beliefs on this point, the truth is that what does or doesn't matter varies hugely from writer to writer, and house to house. Sometimes it is about a large advance, because some houses perceive your worth to them not by how much you can bring in to them over years of steady work (otherwise, romance and cozy mystery writers would be worth their weight in gold to their houses, which is far, far from the case) but by how big a splash you can make with a single project or series or whatever. If they have to pay more up front to get you -- especially in an auction situation or when they know there's interest from other houses -- some are more highly motivated to get behind you and your work and push, with promo dollars and tours and whatever else that particular house views as "building" you and your name.

It's also entirely true that, assuming you do your part and turn in solid work, the only guaranteed money you can plan and budget for is the advance. You don't know when, or if, royalties will come in; you don't know if subrights sales will be great or only a trickle over years.

This is the "bird in the hand" question every author has to answer for him or herself, and that answer will depend on individual circumstances -- and, I hope, a good agent's advice.

um...those who think if your 5000 advance means you get 5000 - it doesn't-...sub taxes (state and fed as a sole proprietor you pay 15% self employment tax plus your 15% agents commission.Then you typically do not get that advance all on signing - usually you get half on signing and the other on D&A (delivery and acceptance of the final manuscript) If it's a 2 book deal it can even stretch out longer... sometimes you don't get part until publication which can be over a year...
trying to estimate an advance is like budgeting for your potential lottery winnings...

And there's that. There's definitely that. If you do nothing else, for God's sake get advice from a good accountant and pay your taxes on the money as it comes in. Otherwise, you could find yourself in deep and long-lasting trouble.

All that said, if you go into writing as a novelist with the idea it's going to secure your future, go be a stockbroker or a car salesperson or something.

Seriously.

The percentage of published writers who earn a living by writing alone in the US is, I believe, less than 5%. And that's just earning a living, not living in the lap of luxury.

[ORION]

COOL!!! KTC!!! How very cool...and cheshire you are right on - the other thing about advances is that many times that's how you get your book into the bookstores- If a bookseller sees that big splash in PW or PM or any of the other trades they are more likely to order it -
And if your book isn't in the bookstores ...readers have a tough time finding it....

[otterman]

I look forward to the "advance" of seeing my story with my name sitting on my bookshelf. To me, nothing else matters.

[CheshireCat]

I look forward to the "advance" of seeing my story with my name sitting on my bookshelf. To me, nothing else matters.

May your career last long enough for you to get over that. ;)

[otterman]

I'm not sure how to take your comment, CheshireCat.

[Shady Lane]

I'm not sure how to take your comment, CheshireCat.

Excitement for seeing your book on the bookshelf is inversely proportional to the number of your books on the bookshelf.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

[CheshireCat]

I'm not sure how to take your comment, CheshireCat.

It wasn't intended as an insult. That's why the winky-face. ;)

All I meant was that it's usually that way for writers; we want to see our first book as a book, published, on the shelf. Our names on the cover. A reward and validation for everything we've gone through to create that work.

But if you become a career novelist, and earn your living writing, that book on the shelf is, believe it or not, not going to be enough. Because there's usually a mortgage, and food, and at some point it becomes a job. A wonderful job, but a job.

You'll expect to be paid. Even more, you'll realize that all those bothersome numbers matter. How much they pay you. How many copies they print. How many copies sell.

If you have the luxury of writing without the need to earn your living, good for you. That one book might be enough. But, again, the numbers will matter -- to your publisher.

That's just a reality of the business, a reality of the marketplace, and a reality for writers.

[LordDelusions]

Hmm...all of you have some good points, interesting thoughts.

1) I'm not writing for money because that doesnt happen to all of us: http://www.publishersweekly.com/blog/660000266/post/1780012978.html?nid=3340

2) $5,000 isnt bad...but its not that great. But yea, it does make sense how the price is based on whether or not it will sell/how much it will sell. And then the whole taxes thing suck.

3) Advances arent necessarily on my mind, well they are. but yea, it is better to get into that when you have an agent/publishers interested. I was just thinking of what to realistically expect if all goes well.

[arodriguez]

oh , damn. You mean people actually pay authors to write? i thought writers wrote to just be cool.

[imagoodgurl4]

We do write to be cool. :) It's like high school...we hold the uncool kids upside down for their lunch money. :D

[TrishD]

I think the initial question is valid from the business end of writing. Even if our primary aim is to see our name on the spine of a book on the shelf at B&N, I think it's smart to know the averages when it comes to the advance. We're expected to be saavy along the entire process of being published--researching agents, writing the right query, making sure our contracts don't limit us--so it's not unrealistic to want a ballpark figure so we know we're getting a good deal when our agent and publisher say we are.

[otterman]

Just getting back. As to my earlier comment and the response to it:
As someone writing my first novel, I am keeping my goals realistic. I want to get the first book done and published, simple as that. I have a good job, money is not my motivation. Sure, I will expect to be paid for my efforts because I think my work deserves that but that isn't what drives me. I do understand there are some here who write for a living and I know how difficult that can be. All I was trying to say is that my writing is not motivated by a $5000 advance, it is driven by my desire to see my ideas come to life. I'll take that book on my shelf, thanks. Oh, and yes, there will be another, and another...

[LordDelusions]

Yea. writing doesnt necessarily have to be motivated by money because who knows how much you'll get in the end.
But I was wondering what the average is. And if ppl mind sharing a ball point amount they were offered (like 5 or 6 figures)?

[Will Lavender]

My mother's agent is a hotshot. HOTSHOT. Like, clears over half a million on some children's book deals. (No, not my mother's. Not even remotely close.)

But he easily got her in (with her children's books) with Scholastic and Hyperion/Disney. He also hooked her up with Harcourt for her debut adult novel. And, like I said, he can command HUGE advances from publishers. When he talks, they listen. But my mother doesn't really want a big advance, ever. Not interested, no thanks. (At least not until she's a household name, I suppose. Then it might be nice!)

The thing is, it's not about a big advance. It just isn't. One advance, essentially, means nothing. If you have a dream of writing for money, it means long-haul and waiting for royalty statements that aren't in the red. So smaller advances work to your benefit. You look like less of a liability to current and future publishers if you're easily able to sell out your advance. You're more likely to sell a second book if your first one sold out its advance early on in publication. And it's all about selling that second book.

Bit of an oversimplification, I think.

The advance is important because, if it's a lot of money, it can set a person up for a long time. And it's not just the American advance: I've sold my book in quite a few countries, and some of them have offerred very solid advances. That's MY money. It's in the bank. I was able to literally quit my day job.

So, I'd say it means something.

But we all know it's about selling books. That's no secret to anyone here. But to say the advance means nothing is...well, it's wrong.

[badducky]

I always prefer to talk about distribution. The question I ask publishers, both large and small, "What's your distro?"

Advances are lovely. Really, they are. Whoever invented them deserves a beer.

Royalties are even more awesome.

Books come with the best advertising for them built into them, and they are placed in places that people go to seek them out based on that advertising, among other factors.

Distribution is way more important to me than advances. That's how you get to the awesome royalties.

[Sean D. Schaffer]

Yea. writing doesnt necessarily have to be motivated by money because who knows how much you'll get in the end.
But I was wondering what the average is. And if ppl mind sharing a ball point amount they were offered (like 5 or 6 figures)?


I don't know how much you'll be getting with a legitimate house, but I imagine it will be a lot more than the crisp one dollar bill I got from that not-so-reputable place with its own forum on the Bewares and Background Checks part of AW.

And I'd like to thank the people who responded to this thread. I just happened upon it, and found the responses enlightening.

I've taken myself too seriously over the last few years, and I honestly think I was writing to get rich -- specifically to get off Social Security. But I needed the reality check this thread has given me. Writing for the money, as I understand it now, is not a good thing. I should be doing it for the enjoyment and for the audience, but the money is more or less icing on the cake, as it were.

Thank you all again. :)

[Prawn]

Show me the money, baby!

Writing is a hobby for me. I write an hour or two a day. I would like to be paid for that. It would make my hobby my part time job! Coo! Being paid to do something I enjoy.

That being said, I am middle-aged. I have a wife and kids. My wife and I both have jobs. 5K won't pay off my house or credit card bills. In short, 5K wouldn't really make any difference in my life. 50K might not either.

But 5K sure would make me feel better!

I write an hour or two every day. Let's say an hour and a half.

365 days x 1.5 hours = 534 hours

If I got a 5K advance, it would be 5K - 15% to my agent -25% tax =$3187. Divide that by 534 hours and you get 5.96 an hour. Honestly, unless you have a best seller or three, it ain't about the money folks. You could make more money working at Wal-mart

For me, it is about the legitimacy that getting paid for writing would bring me. The validation that my writing has worth other than just to me. That those hours I spend writing when i could be playing golf or spending more time with my kids are worth something to others.

That's why a 5K advance would be great.