Completed Novel...now what??? HELP!

[WistfulWriter7]

Hello all,
I very new to this site and I just lost myself for a few hours reading things I didn't really need to know. =p So, I figured, I would simply ask my question. I just finished my first novel. It is a fantasy-fiction novel and I need advice about what to do next. I have edited it to the best of my abilities and have passed it on to other readers to do their worst. I'm not trying to be full of myself, but I've gotten very little criticism that my novel is fundamentally problematic and, like most writers, I believe deeply in work. But, I can see, writing the first draft was the easy part. I was wondering what to do now? Please share any and all wisdom. There is nothing I want more than to be a published writer. I've even begun the squeal! I couldn't stay away. Thank you all in advance, Jen

[WistfulWriter7]

oops, *I am very new to this site

wow, first few words and already typos...this is probably one of my bigger problems...luckily for me I have a friend who is obsessed with spelling and grammar to help me!

[blacbird]

I was wondering what to do now? Please share any and all wisdom. There is nothing I want more than to be a published writer.

Step 1: "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned . . . "

caw

[James D. Macdonald]

First:

Start work on your next book. Don't even think about leaving your house before you've written two pages.

Next:

Go to a bookstore. Find books on the shelves that are similar to yours. Find the publishers. Learn which agents represented them. Get those publishers' and those agents' guidelines. Follow those guidelines to the letter.

Repeat for your second book.

And your third.

And your fourth.

And so on.

[jclarkdawe]

As well as working on your next book, and if you're really brave, you might want to go to the share your work (SYW) forum here (the password I believe is "vista"). There's a fantasy forum there where you can post your first chapter. (Before you do, take a look at some of the other postings so you know what you're in for.)

And if you have the courage of the damned, develop a query letter and submit it to the query letter forum in SYW. There, with gentle, loving hands, we'll kindly shape your query into something that might get an agent interested in your book. (Those of you ROFL about the gentle and loving hands, let her keep her illusions a bit longer.) To get your manuscript to an agent, you'll need to develop a query letter, which involves different skills than writing a novel.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[veinglory]

It is a good idea to get some impartial readers to look at it. Even otherwise very frank and blunt friends will not tell you everything you need to know about a manuscript. There is SYW here, also critters.org and critiquecircle.com

[Stijn Hommes]

If you just finished your novel and already know it's a problematic thing, you need to do editing (with or without the SYW forum) before you go any further down the chain with this work and start sending it out to agents or publishers. A novel is rarely truly finished after its first draft.

Also, the fact you called your work a "fantasy-fiction novel" irked me. Novels are fiction by default, especially if they're fantasy. You should simply call it a fantasy novel if you want to avoid annoying editors as well. I should know, because the reason it bothered me is that it's a thing I've acquired from listening to business professionals.

The best of luck with your novel. I hope I've provided some useful notes.

[dawinsor]

You can also trade critiques at the Online Writing Workshop, which is specifically for speculative fiction. And when you're ready to search for an agent, you can consult agentquery.com for suggestions that you then check against Backgrounds and Bewares here.

[Straka]

I highly suggest having other writers read your query. I crafted mine with the help of a friend who is good a grammar but not a writer and the writers here ripped it a new one. ;-)

Listen to James. Don’t stop writing. I didn't start queering agents until I had 4 books written but that was my choice.

You could also try sacrificing a small goat to the publishing god.... just a thought.

[scarletpeaches]

I highly suggest having other writers read your query. I crafted mine with the help of a friend who is good a grammar but not a writer and the writers here ripped it a new one. ;-)

Listen to James. Don’t stop writing. I didn't start queering agents until I had 4 books written but that was my choice.

You could also try sacrificing a small goat to the publishing god.... just a thought.

So that's where I've been going wrong...

[Irysangel]

If it is your first novel, people might not give you harsh feedback. I'm sorry, but it's true. There's so much "I'm proud of you!" syndrome going around that people will pick on the small things, but not the gaping plot holes that would hurt your feelings if they told you about them. I had the exact same problem. I sent my first novel off to a reading group and everyone said "Oh, it's great! No problems!"

This was encouraging - but frustrating. I did join an online group that had NO interest in sparing my feelings and they immediately ripped it to shreds...and it deserved to be shredded. So please do take everything with a grain of salt and look for a perfect stranger or two to be mean to your work. :)

[nevada]

You could also try sacrificing a small goat to the publishing god.... just a thought.

Thats ba-a-a-a-ad advice. :e2bouncey(pretend that's a goat. we're all writers, we can do that)

Someone had to say it.

[Shady Lane]

Completed Novel 1 ----> Completed Novel 2


yayyy flowcharts.

seriously, awesome job finishing the first one! You've already come a lot farther than must people who want to be published.

[Dustry Joe]

Black rooster much more pleasing to the loa than goat.

If you have another novel in mind, I would say to toss this one in a drawer and write the second one. Then, a couple months later, go back and start editing, re-writing, and just generally musing on the the first one.

Submit some sections for review on sites like this one. There are also sites more specialized for fantasy, etc.

Once you get the feeling that it's really a product that can sell, not just your maiden voyage, training exercise, follow some of the advice above for locating agents, etc.

They don't beat a path to the door of first novels, sorry. But there's a chance yours is one that will.

Good luck

[slcboston]

Go to a bookstore. Find books on the shelves that are similar to yours. Find the publishers. Learn which agents represented them. Get those publishers' and those agents' guidelines. Follow those guidelines to the letter.

It's this bit that's always puzzled me: how do I find out which agent/agency represented authors whose work I feel is similar to my own?

Publishers are easy, as those are listed on the inside of the book, but agents seem to be harder to track, at least in my limited experience.

[johnzakour]

This should help some:

http://www.querytracker.net/

[Dustry Joe]

Indeed.

Also, take a look at some first novels by these writers: very often they mention their agent in the dedication.

I frequently google things like "Chuck Palaniuck, literary agent, email" or some such.

Also many of the agent lists sites search by keywords. Authors usually appear on their list of clients and therefore engage the search.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Also, take a look at some first novels by these writers: very often they mention their agent in the dedication.


Yes, except I think you mean "acknowledgments" rather than "dedication". I can only remember ever seeing two books dedicated to agents--one to Carol Brandt and one to Esther Newberg.

[Dustry Joe]

Ah, yes, that's the word I was fumbling for.




(Okay, okay, I can't spell it and don't want to have to read seven posts about how spelling things wrong on a writer's forum is a sign of the End Times)

[Edward G]

I finished my first novel recently as well. I've querried about 30 agents and heard back from about 15-20 of them, all form rejection letters, which means there's absolutely no way to tell why they rejected it.

Frankly I think it's a good story. My wife thinks it's a good story, but I must admit, it's just another story; there's absolutely no reason why it should be published over some other essentially well-written story in the same genre. It doesn't rise above the competition, even in my own estimation. It's worth reading, but there's no reason someone should take a chance on me as a new author with no track record based on what they see in my query or first three chapters.

What can I say? It's a good story, reads fast and keeps the suspense up, has an interesting take on a ghost, but it's just another story. It was my first. I feel like I learned everything over the course of last year. But without a doubt, it is the first pancake of the batch.

I'll probably self-publish, or go through a publishing company I know of who will get it up as a Kindle Book (no advance, royalties only), then I'll come in here and tell everyone about it. What else is there to do?

[Toothpaste]

Sorry Tom, exactly how is your personal tale helping the OP? I'm assuming you are implying she should self-publish because of your negative personal experience. Shall I share my success story as well as an implication she should "traditionally" publish? I don't consider your post particularly helpful. If you want to offer the suggestion of self-publishing, then do it, but don't offer your story as why one should self publish. There are a lot of good reasons to, however your individual experience has no bearing whatsoever on what Jen should do considering you are two completely different people.

[badducky]

Let me say this for the record:

Badducky is almost always against self-publishing, and I have yet to encounter anyone in five years of asking around that I thought to myself ought to be pursuing self-publishing.

The OP should absolutely not self-publish. Neither should Tom.

Do what Uncle Jim just advised you to do. Do it over and over again. And be sure to thank Uncle Jim for giving you the best advice you ever got.

Heck, I'll do it right now.

Hey, Uncle Jim, thanks for all your excellent advice!

edit to add: in case you didn't know "Uncle Jim" is massively multiply published novelist, and AW Sage, James D MacDonald.

[Edward G]

Sorry Tom, exactly how is your personal tale helping the OP? I'm assuming you are implying she should self-publish because of your negative personal experience. Shall I share my success story as well as an implication she should "traditionally" publish? I don't consider your post particularly helpful. If you want to offer the suggestion of self-publishing, then do it, but don't offer your story as why one should self publish. There are a lot of good reasons to, however your individual experience has no bearing whatsoever on what Jen should do considering you are two completely different people.

I agree. It's not particularly helpful. But I have nothing to say that can help. You do, obviously, so you should tell us your story. I mean, you must have got an advance that you are not expected to devote to publication of the novel, right? John Grisham, apparently, had to go on the Colbert Report, a comedy show, to flogg his Playing for Pizza (which I read). He was trying to answer the questions and the commentator kept making jokes. It was debasing--and that's John Grisham. But that's not you, right? You got published, you got a good deal, you don't have to do your own publicity, and all is good. So share your story. I think I've been rejected. So what other choice do I have? Should I set my manuscript on a shelf, never to be read, and let the agents be my gatekeepers to my own dream?

I just wish we could talk honestly about this, without arguing or getting defensive.

[Edward G]

Let me say this for the record:

Badducky is almost always against self-publishing, and I have yet to encounter anyone in five years of asking around that I thought to myself ought to be pursuing self-publishing.

The OP should absolutely not self-publish. Neither should Tom.

No way! The OP may do fantastic and have great success. And let me be the first to say that I am following Uncle Jim's advice.

But I am a loser. The publishing industry doesn't want my story. Or if they would, it doesn't matter because the agents have pre-rejected it. So what should I do? Start on my next one? I am, and it's going to be a doosey! But what about my first one? Do you think I should toss it in the garbage? I mean really, what?

[badducky]

First:

Start work on your next book. Don't even think about leaving your house before you've written two pages.

Next:

Go to a bookstore. Find books on the shelves that are similar to yours. Find the publishers. Learn which agents represented them. Get those publishers' and those agents' guidelines. Follow those guidelines to the letter.

Repeat for your second book.

And your third.

And your fourth.

And so on.

Tom, this is exactly what you should do. That's it. That's the secret. All it takes is a bit of patience, a bit of persistence, and a bit of effort.

Adrienne and I are both in our twenties, so it's not like it really takes >that< much time, if you write a good book.

[James D. Macdonald]

What else is there to do?

Write another, different, better book.

Leave your (probably) fatally flawed first novel in your desk drawer where it belongs.

[Toothpaste]

I agree. It's not particularly helpful. But I have nothing to say that can help. You do, obviously, so you should tell us your story. I mean, you must have got an advance that you are not expected to devote to publication of the novel, right? John Grisham, apparently, had to go on the Colbert Report, a comedy show, to flogg his Playing for Pizza (which I read). He was trying to answer the questions and the commentator kept making jokes. It was debasing--and that's John Grisham. But that's not you, right? You got published, you got a good deal, you don't have to do your own publicity, and all is good. So share your story. I think I've been rejected. So what other choice do I have? Should I set my manuscript on a shelf, never to be read, and let the agents be my gatekeepers to my own dream?

I just wish we could talk honestly about this, without arguing or getting defensive.

And I rise to your bait.

But first I must say . . .

Wow.

Then I must address your last point first. I got upset (though not defensive) about your post because it was irrelevant to the conversation at hand, and extremely self centred. We should not need to "discuss this honestly" here because that isn't what this thread is about. You have now made it about that, I have no doubt shortly then this thread will be cut in two so that it can stay on track.

Now to answer your questions. First off you do get that that's what Colbert does right? The whole point of the show is that it's all about him. Guests come on and know that they are unlikely to get a word in edgewise, but that's okay because it's part of the joke, and also just having gone on the Report is huge publicity. Also you do get that Colbert is playing a character right? Genuine question as I have met people who didn't realise that.

Next. You asked me about my advance and how much of it I had spent. Yes I have spent some money on self promotion. But to be honest, very little. See this is what I do by way of self promotion. I go to schools to give readings. For this, I get paid. I also buy books at a huge discount to sell at said schools, because the kids get really excited and all want one. I then sell all these books and make a profit. I have a blog. Free. From this blog I have been contacted for interviews. Again, free. I have a website, costs me 20$ for my domain name. I made buttons once, that was my biggest expense at a couple hundred dollars. Oh and I did host a launch party for family and friends and provided some food, and the food obviously cost some money, as did the flyers we printed. Did sell over 80 books as well, still.

Now then. What my publisher has done. Well aside from the standard getting me into what seems to be every book store out there, and face out placement on shelves, aside from featuring me in their catalogue at every book fair they're at, aside from sending out hundreds of ARCs to reviewers and bookbuyers, and giving me as many as I needed for free (along with 25 free copies of the actual book), aside from getting me a world class artist for my cover, getting me a blurb for the back cover by world famous author Eoin Colfer, and providing fabulous editing (I have been fortunate to have two editors who really understand what I am trying to do and my voice), they have also:

Sent me on tour to three different states (and paid for every expense). Had me at their table at Book Expo of America signing ARCs. Posted two ads for my book in the New York Times Book Review, one half a page, another full (and if you don't know how huge that is, well . . .). Currently are running ads on the radio. On Dec 12th 2006 I discovered my name everywhere on the internet as they sent out a massive press release talking about the acquisition of my book.

Oh and this is my first book.

Oh and it's been out a grand total of . . . 4 months.

Oh and thanks to my advance, I am now a full time author.


So that's a little something of what my publisher has done for me. I won't go into the whole what my agent has done for me, sold my book to over 10 countries and also just been an incredible source of emotional support for this slightly neurotic author.

I'm not saying every first time author gets this treatment (though if you think this is something, just ask ORION about her experience). I know sure as heck that I am lucky. And I understand your frustration, I really do. I am also an actress and I can tell you have had way less success with it than writing. I understand the pain of rejection, and the frustration of not being able to break into the industry. Yes the acting world can really suck, but then again I am willing to acknowledge at the same time there are brilliant actors out there and movies/plays being made. So it can't be completely hopeless either. My plan is to keep fighting, figure new strategies, take classes, do whatever it takes to break into it. You just seem to want to rail against the machine. That's not very productive.

Back to my list. Now it is not something I like to share with people, especially with my writing peers, because I worry that it can come across as bragging. But you did ask. And more importantly I wrote it to point out that your implication that because most traditionally published authors do some self promotion there is really no difference between them and those who self publish is just plain wrong. I mean come on! Give some credit to the people who self publish! That's a friggin tough road they've chosen, ten times more so than those who are "traditionally" published, and the rare few who make it, well they have done some bloody hard work to get there.


To the rest, sorry I took this thread so off course. Just felt a need to answer Tom's questions.

[jclarkdawe]

I hate going off from the original topic, but I have some problems with some of your statements. Now let me preface this with the fact that you can do what you want, but some of your statements imply some fundamental misunderstandings that I won't want the original poster to believe.

I finished my first novel recently as well. I've querried about 30 agents and heard back from about 15-20 of them, all form rejection letters, which means there's absolutely no way to tell why they rejected it.

First off, your numbers are consistent with my results as shown here: An experiment with a query (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86645)

A lot of times agents don't respond. But a lot of agents also say they won't and any agent has the right to run their business however the hell they want to. Bottom line is we can safely say you've had 30 rejections for 30 submissions.

I don't know whether you're submitting just your query, or whether you're submitting the first x number of pages as well. At this stage in your problem, however, it doesn't really make a difference. If your query has problems, it doesn't really matter whether you're submitting a partial with it or not, as some problems in a query can guarantee that your partial will never get read.

In the Share Your Work forum, there is a forum for looking at query letters. That's pretty much where I hang out here. I've probably now looked at over 300 different queries. And I'll tell you, that as originally submitted, many of them have some fatal errors.

Examples would include word counts, poor grammar, verbosity, no plot shown, plot that's been done often, poor research, uninteresting story, no characters, and no idea how to write a business letter. These can be absolutely fatal errors or errors that just reduce the likelihood of acceptance.

I would strongly suggest submitting your query to SYW or the Evil Editor or some place else for an analysis of whether it has some blatant problems that are killing your chances. Queries involve different skills that writing novels, and the fact that you can write a novel doesn't mean you have any clue how to write a query.

But until you have some one knowledgeable look at your query, you have no basis in saying that "there's absolutely no way to tell why they rejected it." My guess is that looking at your query will result in several reasons why your query is being rejected. By the way, 30 queries isn't a significant amount of queries.

Frankly I think it's a good story. My wife thinks it's a good story, but I must admit, it's just another story; there's absolutely no reason why it should be published over some other essentially well-written story in the same genre. It doesn't rise above the competition, even in my own estimation. It's worth reading, but there's no reason someone should take a chance on me as a new author with no track record based on what they see in my query or first three chapters.

Agents take a chance on first-time writers all the time. Every author, at some point, was a first-time writer. Any agent would love to sign the next John Grisham or Stephen King. That's what they're all hoping for.

But your description here is lukewarm. I'd much prefer to hear you think you've written the next best seller. Because if you're not excited about your book, the chances anyone else will be are pretty slim.

Again, have you submitted this to any place for independent critique? In SYW, there are forums for just about every style of writing, where you can get more of a critique than you probably want.

Are you a member of a critique group? Have you shown this to a published writer or editor, who will be willing to be negative to you?

What can I say? It's a good story, reads fast and keeps the suspense up, has an interesting take on a ghost, but it's just another story. It was my first. I feel like I learned everything over the course of last year. But without a doubt, it is the first pancake of the batch.

A first novel is a learning experience. Why we think our first novels are publishable is beyond me. I don't know about you, but usually the first time I do anything, it doesn't work. I usually have to go through a learning curve.

I'll probably self-publish, or go through a publishing company I know of who will get it up as a Kindle Book (no advance, royalties only), then I'll come in here and tell everyone about it. What else is there to do?

Your choice, but you sure haven't convinced me you have an unpublishable book. It's your money and your choice.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

[scarletpeaches]

I've had way more than 30 rejections and there's no way in hell I'd ever even consider self-publishing.

[Edward G]

Write another, different, better book.

Leave your (probably) fatally flawed first novel in your desk drawer where it belongs.

See, I don't believe that. I can't. I can believe that agents work for publishers, and they can't send a publisher a new, untested author that even they have never met before and expect to be taken seriously the next time by that publisher. I can believe that my story doesn't fit with current publishing trends, and I can believe that the agents listed in Writers Market probably do have way more manuscripts than they can possibly read. But I don't believe my completed novel is fataly flawed just because it doesn't have representation. I mean, these agents haven't read and rejected it. They haven't read it at all. So, put it away where it belongs? How could I do that? No one's even read it. I can't go down in flames that easily.

[Edward G]

I've had way more than 30 rejections and there's no way in hell I'd ever even consider self-publishing.


Well, actually, I won't self-publish either. I can get a deal with an e-book publisher. Maybe Kindle Books and Kindle Readers will come along and save the day. At least the "story" won't be dead without at least being available.

[scarletpeaches]

Jim didn't say your first novel is fatally flawed because it doesn't have representation. I think he was saying your first novel is probably fatally flawed because it is your first.

I know mine was certainly a load of old wank. It might just be resurrectable (yes, that's a real word) but not until I've done shedloads of work on it, which I just don't want to commit to at the moment. I've got another book to write (see my signature; it's going great guns).

Now, your 'first' novel might not be your first if you've completed others but this is the only one you've got to submissions stage. It might not be your first even if you abandoned all the others and this is the only one you've completed - all that other writing still counts as your 'training'.

But most people's first bundle of writing is crap. I've always said the best way to learn about writing is to shut up and do it, so it's never wasted...but rarely is it publishable.

[Pup]

Can't really add much to the excellent responses above, but I'll just say...

Seems to me that if a writer doesn't have the marketing ability to convince an agent to represent a presumably decent novel, he or she will have an even harder time convincing individual readers to buy it if it's self published.

In marketing to an agent, you're competing against other writers.

In marketing to the public, you're competing against all the other self-published booksplus the marketing departments of the big commercial publishers, not to mention all the things a reader could buy instead of a book.

[James D. Macdonald]

But I don't believe my completed novel is fataly flawed just because it doesn't have representation.

Most first novels are fatally flawed. Mine was. Hemingway threw the manuscript for his first novel over the side while he was on an Atlantic crossing. Nicholas Sparks' first novel is in his attic beside his baseball card collection.

After you've written your fifth novel, go back and re-read your first. You may suddenly realize why it didn't sell. Then you can send flowers to all the agents who passed on it.

Tell me that you're writing a new book. Take a break from here; don't post again until you've written a whole chapter in your next book.

[Edward G]

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe


Thank you for the good advice. I will submit the query to SYW. That's a good idea. But you know it's interesting: you have a couple of novels finished, or I assume they are novels in your signature. I'd like to read one of them. The 88,000-word one, just as a reader, not a beta, not a critic, just as a reader. But if you don't get "accepted" I won't ever get to read it. I think that sucks.

I really don't know if I have the stomach to keep querring agents. I may try direct submissions to smaller publishers. Unfortunately the first one I looked at wanted me to submit how I intended to "sell" the book. But if I sell the book, and they get the lion's share of the profit, how's that any different than vanity publishing?

[scarletpeaches]

Well, again, let me say I've had twice the number of rejections you have and what keeps me going?

I want this. I want it more than I want anything else, have ever wanted anything else. There's nothing in life I want more than to be a published novelist. And that, my friend, is what keeps me going. Sheer, undiluted desire.

[ChaosTitan]

Unfortunately the first one I looked at wanted me to submit how I intended to "sell" the book. But if I sell the book, and they get the lion's share of the profit, how's that any different than vanity publishing?

Most small publishers don't have the capital to invest in promoting authors' books, not the way larger houses can. Often, they just want to know that you intend to invest yourself into marketing your book, rather than submitting it, signing your contract, and then sitting back on your heels. They want to know what *you* will do to help your book's success.

Simple things like print up fliers, pass out bookmarks, set up a website and a blog, contact local bookstores about signings, contacting schools or other organizations relevant to the book's subject matter and having a reading.

And the major difference between small pub and vanity pub? You don't pay the small pub to publish your book. Period. Yes, you will have to invest in promotion, but many traditionally published authors do that anyway (advance or no advance).

I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but dude, thirty queries is nothing. Do you know how many agents are out there? Where's Jo? She sent out over a hundred-odd queries before finally getting representation. To quote from a much better movie than Superman III, "Never give up, never surrender." (Galaxy Quest)

[Edward G]

And I rise to your bait.

But first I must say . . .

Wow.


To the rest, sorry I took this thread so off course. Just felt a need to answer Tom's questions.

I must say, that's very impressive. You look very impressive; your book seems very impressive, and I truly wish you even more success. Thank you for sharing the details.

[Edward G]

I know it's been mentioned elsewhere, but dude, thirty queries is nothing. Do you know how many agents are out there? Where's Jo? She sent out over a hundred-odd queries before finally getting representation. To quote from a much better movie than Superman III, "Never give up, never surrender." (Galaxy Quest)


We have Galaxy Quest on DVD our favorite line: they've been telling Guy that he won't be killed off just because he wasn't a major character in the series, and then in the first sign of trouble she says: "We've got to get out of here before they kill Guy!"

Thanks for the uplift. I won't post anymore in here, since this is not really my thread and it seems I've unwittingly highjacked it.

[Dustry Joe]

Tom, anybody, in any business is constantly selling themselves. The best-selling authors in the world, with huge contracts from gigantic evil conglomerates work at selling their books.

[Birol]

See, I don't believe that. I can't. I can believe that agents work for publishers, and they can't send a publisher a new, untested author that even they have never met before and expect to be taken seriously the next time by that publisher.

How did you determine this?

[Toothpaste]

Thank you for the compliment and well wishes Tom.

"See, I don't believe that. I can't. I can believe that agents work for publishers, and they can't send a publisher a new, untested author that even they have never met before and expect to be taken seriously the next time by that publisher."

This is just untrue. Ask around this board. There are many "new untested authors" that got representation just this year in fact. Every author was a "new untested author" at one time.

[Edward G]

How did you determine this?

I read it somewhere. And it seems to make sense. If I was an agent, I would want the editor at Harper Collins to know that when I submit something to them, they should take a look at it, because it's in tune with their needs and has "star" power or fairy dust. If I got a query from Tom B., who I've never met before, who's never published fiction before, and wants to break in with a genre supernatural suspense, I'd probably pass. I wouldn't request the manuscript because there's no way in hell I'd tie my name to his by representing him. It's too much risk, not enough pay. I'd send him a form rejection or not even that.

Now, apparently I'm incorrect, as Toothpaste has pointed out. Some authors on this board have gotten representation and good contracts their first time out. They say they've made enough money with their advances to write full-time.

[Toothpaste]

I read it somewhere. And it seems to make sense. If I was an agent, I would want the editor at Harper Collins to know that when I submit something to them, they should take a look at it, because it's in tune with their needs and has "star" power or fairy dust. If I got a query from Tom B., who I've never met before, who's never published fiction before, and wants to break in with a genre supernatural suspense, I'd probably pass. I wouldn't request the manuscript because there's no way in hell I'd tie my name to his by representing him. It's too much risk, not enough pay. I'd send him a form rejection or not even that.


Ah yes, but the reason this is wrong is two fold. The first reason is that, as you yourself have stated, agents are now the gatekeepers to the publishing world. They have relationships with editors, a back and forth sort of thing, so that if an editor receives a submission from an agent they know and respect, if the submission is by someone unknown, they are probably going to assume there's still going to be something of quality there because they know the agent wouldn't submit anything less.

Secondly you also forget that editors ARE looking for new authors. They too are looking for the next JK Rowling or Stephen King. So they are hoping that what they read by some unknown author is going to be some previously undiscovered genius. Just like in acting auditions where the casting director is hoping that they are going to find an actor who is going to be everything they wanted and more.

New writers are essential to the game.

[Edward G]

I hear you, Toothpaste, and I agree. But I think you suggested it before: I really don't like the machine. I don't like the game. I want them to want me. I want them to come to me. I want them to be asking me with their hand out, not mine. Because it is from my work that they will pay for their groceries. I do rage against the machine. I hate authority. I hate its boot stamping on my face forever (as O'brien in 1984 would say).

I don't want them telling me how its going to be--I want to be telling them. Just like everyone else, I have to tolerate authority in my life and live at the point of a gun in almost everything I do. But writing is different. It's art. They can't have that, too. Can they?

[Toothpaste]

Hon, you refuse to see the passion that agents and editors have for their work. Nor the truly original writings that are being published out there. You are so keen to rage, that you are blind to the facts. You are free to rage, but as Dr Phil would say, "How's that been working out for you?"

[Cranky]

I hear you, Toothpaste, and I agree. But I think you suggested it before: I really don't like the machine. I don't like the game. I want them to want me. I want them to come to me. I want them to be asking me with their hand out, not mine. Because it is from my work that they will pay for their groceries. I do rage against the machine. I hate authority. I hate its boot stamping on my face forever (as O'brien in 1984 would say).

I don't want them telling me how its going to be--I want to be telling them. Just like everyone else, I have to tolerate authority in my life and live at the point of a gun in almost everything I do. But writing is different. It's art. They can't have that, too. Can they?

Hating authority ain't gonna getcha anywhere, sorry. How do you think they'll know to come to you with their hands out *rollseyes* unless you query...a lot? (More than thirty times, as others have said)

You've written the book -- that's great! Now, apply yourself to that query letter, start writing the next book, whatever. Don't waste your time being angry over the fact that agents aren't falling all over themselves to represent you. You have to make them want to do that, and the only way I know of to make that happen is to write a great query, and more importantly...to write a good book they think they can sell.

Forget about the art now. NOW it's time for business. Marketing. The getting-your-hands-dirty part of getting a book published. You can rage against the machine all you want, but that won't convince an agent to do anything except to say, "No, thanks." You have to sell them on the book, and that's what a query letter does. It's business correspondence...a marketing letter. Make them believe in the product you're selling. Because now that the book is written, that's exactly what you are doing. If you want an agent to sell the book to a publisher, you have to sell the book to an agent in the first place. (Or, to the publisher directly, yes, but that can be more difficult than an agent doing so on your behalf)

I realize I seem a bit harsh here, but them's the breaks, and I mean no offense.

[scarletpeaches]

I'd happily whore myself out to the marketing dudes at some big publishing house.

Just in case anyone there's reading this - HarperCollins, I am your bitch.

[Bubastes]

I'd happily whore myself out to the marketing dudes at some big publishing house.

Just in case anyone there's reading this - HarperCollins, I am your bitch.

LOL! I'll join you on that street corner.

"HarperCollins? Random House? Farrar, Straus & Giroux? I show you fun party, cheap cheap. Me love you long time."

[ORION]

Wistfulwriter7...I don't have a thing to add - even the "highjack" shows the common feelings of despair and frustration with the system...
I cannot emphasize enough to set your draft aside to sit for a bit - start your next novel and then revisit your first- Keep doing this. Do not query agents too early.
note: I too have a drawer full of rejections totaling probably 70 to 100 for three different projects (primarily my first novel). It was my third novel which got me published.

[badducky]

You know, Tom, my book ain't even out yet, and an agent came looking for me. I'm untried, and untested, and still really new at this business.

A pretty impressive agent, too.

You know, whenever I think about what my next move is going to be as a writer, I ask myself this question, "What would world-famous novelist J M McDermott do?" because right now, I am not world-famous novelist J M McDermott, but if I want to get there, I'm not going to get there without taking steps and doing things the right, professional way.

And, I'll tell you exactly what world-famous novelist J M McDermott does: exactly, precisely what world-famous novelist, scam-buster, and author activist James D MacDonald suggests that unknown nobody J M McDermott should do.

And, lemme tell ya, Tommy, it has been working. Repeatedly.

[badducky]

I must say, that's very impressive. You look very impressive; your book seems very impressive, and I truly wish you even more success. Thank you for sharing the details.

It is unabashedly offensive to insinuate that Adrienne's appearance has absolutely anything to do with her achievements, Tommy.

Adrienne could have looked like a used radiator covered in sausage and as long as she had written the great book she wrote, they would have still published her and flown her around town.

I know this because I actually look like a used radiator covered in sausage and the publishing industry is still embracing me just fine.

I've always thought it wildly offensive when folks insinuate that an author's appearance has anything to do with their success. It's a real common backlash against folks, especially young women. (Zadie Smith still has to deal with it despite selling a gillion books by their quality alone.)

I don't like how you prefaced your complements with a physical one, Tom.

Write a good book. Try to sell it to agents and publishers the right way. That's the "trick" and no amount of whinging or insinuating will change that equation, and nobody cares what you look like as long as you act like a pro.

[scarletpeaches]

Maaaaaybe he meant she looks impressive as in her career, her writing. I know if someone does a good job, I'll say, "You're looking good!" as a compliment to their achievements.

Even if they do have a face like a melted welly.

Jes' sayin'.

[Paichka]

LOL! I'll join you on that street corner.

"HarperCollins? Random House? Farrar, Straus & Giroux? I show you fun party, cheap cheap. Me love you long time."

My gracious...do you think that would work?

*hunts frantically for her assless chaps and g-string*

[scarletpeaches]

Back of the queue girls, back of the queue.

I'm lapdancing for Penguin afore yous guys.

[Edward G]

Hon, you refuse to see the passion that agents and editors have for their work. Nor the truly original writings that are being published out there. You are so keen to rage, that you are blind to the facts. You are free to rage, but as Dr Phil would say, "How's that been working out for you?"

Not well, I must say. But it seems to be what's required, especially for my next book. Oh hell, it's what I am. I couldn't change it if I wanted to. You know, I'm going to query about 20 more agents, just like I've been doing. If it doesn't work out, I'll go through an e-book publisher I know so at least the book can be read by someone.

I just need to query and stop thinking about it. I need to just think about the rough draft of my next one. I appreciate your input, and you did so without getting rude about it. My attitude can be hard to tollerate. I don't even like it. So thanks.

Maaaaaybe he meant she looks impressive as in her career, her writing. I know if someone does a good job, I'll say, "You're looking good!" as a compliment to their achievements.

Even if they do have a face like a melted welly.

Jes' sayin'.

I think Toothpaste took it the right way, and I certainly meant it graciously. She looks like a pro, she looks confident and capable, and she has "star" quality. I think that's important. She looks very positive.

[James D. Macdonald]

Editors and agents are just super-readers. They aren't the authors' friends. They're the readers' advocates.

If readers suddenly developed a taste for unedited slush, the bookstores would have huge "Unedited slush" sections about two weeks from now. There's no sign that readers are going to develop that taste, though, because so far they haven't. Thanks to the power of the internet and the miracle of print-on-demand publishing everyone can be a slush reader. So far very, very few people have volunteered for the role.

When was the last time that you, personally, picked up and read a self-published electronic novel? You haven't? Why not? Why do you think that anyone else is willing to do something you won't do yourself?

They're all over the place. Go get one. Read it all the way through. See if you can figure out why it was self-published.

Understand that the author of that novel felt about his or her book exactly the same way that you do about yours.

[SpookyWriter]

Editors and agents are just super-readers. They aren't the authors' friends. They're the readers' advocates.
I agree, but you left out the munckins who slush through the writers forums and critique these fine pieces of unpolished gold. We sometimes are the first persons to read a piece of work and can either help or become a hindrance.

Volunteers. We don't get paid to participate.

[badducky]

Tom, let me say this again, just so you realize how offensive what your saying is:

Adrienne would have been published without "looking" like a pro, "looking" confident and capable, and without having any "star" quality whatsoever.

And the reason is because "Alex and the Ironic Gentleman" ("...Wigpowder Treasure" UK) is a fantastic little book.

If she was a burly, hard-drinking, hairy, mean and grizzly coot, and she had also written her book, she would be just as successful as she is today.

"Star" quality is about as important to writers as money is to a corpse.

I am a burly, hard-drinking, hairy, mean and grizzly coot with no star quality whatsoever. I, too, am making it, with my first novel coming out in February, an excellent literary agent, and very good early reviews, plus an unrealistically awesome interview request.

Her "look", as you put it, has absolutely nothing to do with her publication, and almost nothing to do with her success. Her book is what did it all.

Her "look" came well after the book.

[scarletpeaches]

Please don't try to make us feel sorry for someone as pretty as Adrienne. Her, with her being published and having a lovely face and travelling all over the place...

(Only kidding, Toothpaste). ;)

[Toothpaste]

I guess I should respond simply to get things back on track, though it feels distinctly odd.

When I read Tom's initial post I did not think he was talking about my appearance at all. Now he may have been, I dunno I have a weird self image so that is never the first thing I jump to, but I saw nothing malicious in what he was saying. If indeed he had said something about my appearance a la, "Well it's obvious she only got published because of how she looks" well you can be assured the claws would have come out. But he and I have been having a pretty decent back and forth, and I can tell he is taking my posts seriously, so whatever his opinion is on that account I still feel he respects the things I have written.

As to the general idea, I agree with badducky in that I am sure there is a sort of prejudice towards attractive people as with non attractive people. Personally however I have never really been the "pretty girl", the "popular girl". I was always the "smart girl" and became later (like in post secondary school), the "funny girl". I have never felt anyone thinking less of me because . . .oy this is really uncomfortable to write . . . of my looks. As such if someone does make mention of it on occasion, I take it more as flattery than anything.

I appreciate the support badducky, I really do. But in this case especially I believe it is unnecessary. Good to know you have my back though man, genuinely really cool of you.

And now that I have commented, let's go back to whatever the topic of this thread is about, which to be honest . . . I don't really know anymore!

[SpookyWriter]

I did not think he was talking about my appearance at all.

Ah, a reminder to puruse profiles more often.

As to the general idea, I agree with badducky in that I am sure there is a sort of prejudice towards attractive people as with non attractive people.

I can't quite agree with this, and yet I do think beauty applies to certain professions. I'm sure many a writer, published and noteable, were not so much perfection as were their qualities of prose. Book jackets don't always show writers, so I most likely would be at a loss to recognise Dean Koontz from John Q. Public.

I too am at a loss as to the theme here.

[Edward G]

Editors and agents are just super-readers. They aren't the authors' friends. They're the readers' advocates.

If readers suddenly developed a taste for unedited slush, the bookstores would have huge "Unedited slush" sections about two weeks from now. There's no sign that readers are going to develop that taste, though, because so far they haven't. Thanks to the power of the internet and the miracle of print-on-demand publishing everyone can be a slush reader. So far very, very few people have volunteered for the role.

When was the last time that you, personally, picked up and read a self-published electronic novel? You haven't? Why not? Why do you think that anyone else is willing to do something you won't do yourself?

They're all over the place. Go get one. Read it all the way through. See if you can figure out why it was self-published.

Understand that the author of that novel felt about his or her book exactly the same way that you do about yours.

Of course your right. But I'd like my book to be a Kindle Book. But, published properly. In other words, I'd like it to be both an e-book and a regular book.

[Edward G]

I guess I should respond simply to get things back on track, though it feels distinctly odd.

When I read Tom's initial post I did not think he was talking about my appearance at all. Now he may have been, I dunno I have a weird self image so that is never the first thing I jump to, but I saw nothing malicious in what he was saying. If indeed he had said something about my appearance a la, "Well it's obvious she only got published because of how she looks" well you can be assured the claws would have come out. But he and I have been having a pretty decent back and forth, and I can tell he is taking my posts seriously, so whatever his opinion is on that account I still feel he respects the things I have written.



Thank you. And you are correct, I do respect what you have written and the success you've made for yourself.

[scarletpeaches]

Of course, I'm being nice to Toothpaste because I like her and I enjoyed her book but make no mistake, I'd kick her in the shins for a go at James Purefoy.

I know no friendship when it comes to The Purefoy. :LilLove:

[Edward G]

Tom, let me say this again, just so you realize how offensive what your saying is:

.

Ok, well I see that it's offensive to you, even if not necessarily to Toothpaste. You are not attractive, or so you say, and you don't like the implication that you need to be in order to be successful in writing. I agree with you. And of course her book would have been published regardless. I know that, and I'm sorry you felt I was implying it would not have been. I wasn't, so I think we can chalk this up to a misunderstanding.

[scarletpeaches]

I don't understand when telling someone they're attractive (even if that isn't what happened here) became an insult.

[Edward G]

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87612

This is a sample of my writing. I'm going to be off line for a few days while we travel. We're headed to Texas, where all things happen. Take care everyone. It's been great interacting with you, even though this isn't my thread. We'll do it again in a little while I hope.

[CheshireCat]

Tom, anybody, in any business is constantly selling themselves. The best-selling authors in the world, with huge contracts from gigantic evil conglomerates work at selling their books.

I'll say.

[Dustry Joe]

I don't understand when telling someone they're attractive (even if that isn't what happened here) became an insult.

I've never figured that one out. Compliments started becoming insults in the seventies, it seems. During the height of the Feminism Scare.

[James D. Macdonald]

This is getting really far from writing and publishing now....

[SpookyWriter]

This is getting really far from writing and publishing now....
Lock thread. Good night.

[SpookyWriter]

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87612

This is a sample of my writing. I'm going to be off line for a few days while we travel. We're headed to Texas, where all things happen. Take care everyone. It's been great interacting with you, even though this isn't my thread. We'll do it again in a little while I hope.I thought you were already in Texas?

[blacbird]

I thought you were already in Texas?

It's a kinda big state. Only kinda, considering mine.

caw

[SpookyWriter]

It's a kinda big state. Only kinda, considering mine.

cawYeah, and big politicians with bigger dreams. I heard already.

Okay, I got the last word in here. Lock thread and move along folks. Nothing writing here.

[blacbird]

Okay, I got the last word in here.

The hell you did.

caw

[SpookyWriter]

The hell you did.

caw
Behave or I'll have Stephen Hawkins name a black hole in your honor.

[blacbird]

Behave or I'll have Stephen Hawkins name a black hole in your honor.

My son is home from college for the holidays. You haven't seen his room.

caw

[AncientEagle]

I didn't start queering agents until

So THAT'S the secret!

[thethinker42]

Back of the queue girls, back of the queue.

I'm lapdancing for Penguin afore yous guys.

I call dibs on being Tor's bitch!!!

[WistfulWriter7]

If you just finished your novel and already know it's a problematic thing, you need to do editing (with or without the SYW forum) before you go any further down the chain with this work and start sending it out to agents or publishers. A novel is rarely truly finished after its first draft.

Also, the fact you called your work a "fantasy-fiction novel" irked me. Novels are fiction by default, especially if they're fantasy. You should simply call it a fantasy novel if you want to avoid annoying editors as well. I should know, because the reason it bothered me is that it's a thing I've acquired from listening to business professionals.

The best of luck with your novel. I hope I've provided some useful notes.

Oh, lol, I know this. Thanks though. I'm so used to saying I wrote a fantasy novel to have my relatives...who are from a different country, stare at me in wonder. I suppose it just became a habit. Thank you though!

[WistfulWriter7]

I just wanted to say that I was surprised at the fast response on here. I've been struggling with my novel recently and needed to clear my head. When I came back to the site I was pleased to see four pages of response...even if the thread did get off topic. Everyone here seems so nice and knowledgeable! My spirits have been restored and I am determined yet again to turn my novel into my vision. I think I might actually break my fear of posting some of it online...here...and truly try to listen to everyone's advice. I desperately need objective readers. Thank you again and good luck in your own endeavors!
Jen

[swvaughn]

I just wanted to say that I was surprised at the fast response on here. I've been struggling with my novel recently and needed to clear my head. When I came back to the site I was pleased to see four pages of response...even if the thread did get off topic. Everyone here seems so nice and knowledgeable! My spirits have been restored and I am determined yet again to turn my novel into my vision. I think I might actually break my fear of posting some of it online...here...and truly try to listen to everyone's advice. I desperately need objective readers. Thank you again and good luck in your own endeavors!
Jen

LOL Poor Jen. We've taken your thread and run away with it... :)

Hope you're feeling better about your writing, and that some of the babble has been helpful. Good luck to you!