Beta or Agent

[popmuze]

I have an agent sending my fiction around. Now I'm on my way to completing my next novel. I'm wondering if I should send this first to my agent or first to a couple of trusted beta readers before I send it to the agent. I realize the agent's word will be final (unless I want to leave this agent) but I don't want to give the agent anything less than my best shot.

P.S.: I've briefly told the agent about the book and received favorable response.

[reenkam]

I personally don't have an agent, but as far as I know, most authors continue to use betas pre-agent throughout their writing careers. So I'd said betas first, agent later.

[DeleyanLee]

If you used beta readers for the first book, why wouldn't you use them again for the second? Evidently the agent liked what you did the first time. Don't mess with what works.

[Dustry Joe]

I am not real big on the value of input from "betas" as I guess they are oddly called these days.

So I'd say this. The agent liked your work, show her your first 50 or so of the next one. (Assuming you've polished it and all that jazz) Her opinion means way more than your neighbor's does. And agents like to know there's more where that came from and can use it in making a sale.

You have a professional relationship with an agent...that's where you are these days and you should use it and respect it to the fullest.

[slcboston]

The agent liked your work, show her your first 50 or so of the next one. (Assuming you've polished it and all that jazz) Her opinion means way more than your neighbor's does. And agents like to know there's more where that came from and can use it in making a sale.

yeah, but an agent's one person. I'm all for letting the agent know there's another in the works and getting his/her opinion, but echoing what's been said here if your peer group worked the first time, use them again.

You are writing for a larger audience, obviously, so getting feedback from that prospective audience is a good thing.

[Stijn Hommes]

You don't want to make a bad impression on the agent. I'd send it to betas first to avoid an embarrasing mistake to hit the agent's desk. Don't worry, the agent won't mind you using betareaders. It's a good thing.

[Dustry Joe]

You are writing for a larger audience, obviously, so getting feedback from that prospective audience is a good thing.

Nobody you know has an opinion that matters more than your agent's....accept that of the publishers.

Don't worry about "embarrassing". This is your AGENT. You can't hide or dress up. She's already accepted your work.

A general rule I apply to feeback in writing is that I pay attention to suggestions if they make sense to me...and make changes only when they come from somebody who has an investment in the work. Five hundred bozos on the bus tell me something, fine, are they selling books these days?

Somebody says, let's work on this and I'll represent you, or, I'll buy your book, but let's do this, and I consider it. The process of publishing really involves forging deeper and more widespread partnerships in the success of your book.

Your agent almost certainly has some Litmajorserfs who do some of the reading for her, etc. Their opinion matters more than your people's do.

But mostly, again, This Is YOUR AGENT...trust her, deal with her, show her what's going on.

[cethklein]

Let's face it, Betas are the same as people who will potentially buy your book. So even if you've got an agent and a successful career, having a beta look over your work could never be a bad thing. Look at it this way, an agent is interested in selling your book. A beta, like a reader, is looking at reading your book. And a reader is a buyer. As far as I'm concerned, if I had a 100 books under my belt I would still have betas read my books.

But that's just me.

[Julie Worth]

You have a professional relationship with an agent...that's where you are these days and you should use it and respect it to the fullest.

To use agent lingo, this is a subjective business, and an agent's opinion, while more informed than most, is just that, the opinion of one person. The more input you can get prior to sending it off to a publisher, the better.

[CheshireCat]

I personally don't have an agent, but as far as I know, most authors continue to use betas pre-agent throughout their writing careers. So I'd said betas first, agent later.

I know a lot of published writers, most of them quite successful. None of them use betas other than their agents -- and most don't use their agents that way. I certainly don't.

The point is that you should learn not to depend on betas to vet your work. It's understandable that most writers would be uncertain of their skills in the early part of a career, but once you're established and have a few books under your belt, you should be able to submit polished work on your own.

That isn't to say that agents and/or editors won't request changes from minor tweaking to total overhauls -- but when they do they should be looking at a manuscript that's your best work at the time -- not an amalgam of you plus two or three beta readers.

IMO, of course.

[a_sharp]

Unless you have changed genres or otherwise taken a major departure from your accepted book, I'd go with Dustry Joe's advice. Landing an agent puts you in another league.

So many publishing professionals have written that a writer-agent relationship is like a marriage. It implies similar trust. The readers at your literary agency back that trust. You are now part of the family and your writing will be given special consideration now. That doesn't mean the agent will accept it on faith alone. You'll get critiques, but now they'll come from an industry insider who is interested in helping your career and developing your writing prowess.

[Julie Worth]

The point is that you should learn not to depend on betas to vet your work.

The problem is that you know the material. I'm constantly amazed at how many creative ways even good readers can misread something. The misreading might reflect just a few percent of the population, but if you can correct it with a couple of words, why not do it? Get enough readers who misread, or who have to read something twice, and you'll have a much better MS. You can't do this with just one reader.

[katiemac]

I know agents who go through drafts and drafts of established clients' work to help them get it into shape for publication. I don't know if your agent is one of them.

Why don't you ask your agent if s/he'd rather see it now or after you've have your readers go through it?

[Carrie R.]

Why don't you ask your agent if s/he'd rather see it now or after you've have your readers go through it?

I second that advice -- I'm all for lots of agent/author communication.

I have a related question... for those of you with agents, do you wait until you've finished a project before sending it to your agent or do you send them snippets along the way (like sending the partial once it's complete)?

[katiemac]

I have a related question... for those of you with agents, do you wait until you've finished a project before sending it to your agent or do you send them snippets along the way (like sending the partial once it's complete)?

Not agented myself, but I've worked with agents who do both.

[CheshireCat]

The problem is that you know the material. I'm constantly amazed at how many creative ways even good readers can misread something. The misreading might reflect just a few percent of the population, but if you can correct it with a couple of words, why not do it? Get enough readers who misread, or who have to read something twice, and you'll have a much better MS. You can't do this with just one reader.

You can show your work to thirty or forty readers if you want to -- but I guarantee there will still be readers who misunderstand, or misread, or otherwise don't "get" something you've written.

That is also the point. The old saw is true: You can't please everyone. You also can't make your work crystal-clear to every single reader. If it's clear to you, and clear to your agent, and clear to the editor (and copy-editor, and others who will read it in-house), then, IMO, it's clear enough.

One of the skills of a professional writer is the ability to see your work clearly enough, and objectively enough to be able to tell your story and tell it well. I submit that this is a skill you can't learn if you're running your work by people not involved in the publishing process and tweaking things according to their opinions. What's more, I believe a writer's natural voice can be affected, and not positively, by too much input from non-industry readers who have no understanding of or appreciation for voice.

And in today's market, with competition so tough, voice is just about everything.

My opinion.

[Dustry Joe]

Why don't you ask your agent if s/he'd rather see it now or after you've have your readers go through it?

This sounds like good advice.

I continue to feel that the idea that you can't trust you agent to look at your new work without running it by your babysitter or whoever is not coming from professional experience.

I can't stress strongly enough that once you have a contract with an agent, or a publisher, things change. It's not longer a vague "them" up there. It's kind of like you might ask your girlfriends all sort of things about men and relationships and stuff but once you get married, that's your main relationship and what goes on there is more important than what your pals think.

In fact, the idea that some friend reading your work is somehow closer to the market than your agent is pretty silly. The publisher is your market. Your agent knows him by his first name. She had lunch with him last month and he mentioned some things he's tired of seeing and what he's really looking for. She's seen galleys from her other writers coming back from him.

Once you hit the pros, the value of the guys on your sandlot becomes much less valuable. And could even be detrimental.

[kuwisdelu]

I don't have an agent yet, so feel free to disregard my advice. Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't think of sending anything out, even to an agent I've known for years, without running it past my wife. She's read just about every book in the English language, and many in lots of other languages, too, and I respect her opinion on literature more than anyone. She has a great feel for my voice and style, and probably knows my work better than any agent or editor could. To me, she's not just some beta reader, she's an extension of my internal editor, and sees things in my writing that I never could because I'm too close to it. But the thing is, I think I've gotten to the point where my writing is polished enough on my own that her comments are probably a lot less intensive than most betas around here. My last story, her only comment was "it's fine," and before that was "i didn't sympathize Kate; make her more likeable," and before that was "it's fine," etc.

So it depends on you and your betas. If you have a very close beta whose opinion you respect more than life itself, definitely show it to him or her first. If it's just a friend who read your book and told you what he or she thought, then you should probably just go ahead and send it to your agent.

[Julie Worth]

What's more, I believe a writer's natural voice can be affected, and not positively, by too much input from non-industry readers who have no understanding of or appreciation for voice.

This is true. The writer can't take every bit of advice, and often the worst advice is from amateurs who parrot rules of thumb they don't understand. The writer should just thank them and use only what makes sense.

[Dustry Joe]

I don't have an agent yet, so feel free to disregard my advice.

My guess would be, if you look at all the people who think their buddy's comments are more important than their agent's you will be talking about people who don't have agents or have never worked with one.
People who have or know agents, as I've been trying to point out here, have a different attitude about professional versus amateur input. That's because they are professional, not amateur writers.

But whatever the various opinions, it's hard to get around the idea put forth above by another poster. ASK YOUR AGENT WHAT TO DO.

"If you have to trust anybody, trust your agent." William Gibson, "Count Zero"

[Danthia]

Agents are not editors. While many agents offer editorial feedback, that isn't their job. Their job is to sell books to publishers. Your job as a writer is to give them a book they can sell. My agent likes that I have a good critique group, because my work comes to her in a more polished and thus sellable form. In our early pre-signing days, "get a good critique group" was something she mentioned. Luckily, I already had one (two actually). I'm not giving them up no matter how many books I may sell. My work is better because of their input.

If you find value from your beta readers ad crit groups, stick with them. If they helped make your book good enough for an agent, why abandon them now? If they didn't offer anything helpful, then go it alone. But be wary of coming across as an unprofessional author who needs their agent to hold their hand at every step. Unless you have an understanding with your agent that they will work editorially on new projects with you in the early draft stages, don't pester them with something that's essential your job. Asking their advice on a new project is fine, but don't push it too far.

[popmuze]

People who have or know agents, as I've been trying to point out here, have a different attitude about professional versus amateur input. That's because they are professional, not amateur writers.



As someone who has had a number of agents over the years and published a number of books (approximately one per agent) I don't have the same warm and cuddly feeling about this breed. I feel if you give them a reason to lose interest in you, they will. Whether that comes with the first editor who turns down your next project or the first sign that the book they placed for you may not earn out its advance, they generally go where the money is. I admit my new agent seems very excited by my work. I don't want to do anything to spoil that excitement. As far as trust, I think trust comes when the project is a total success for all concerned. Like someone else once told me once, "It's amazing how a hit record serves as a bonding agent for a band."

[Provrb1810meggy]

I have an agent, but I plan on still sending my next book to my faithful beta reader and maybe a few others, just to get the book into polished, final draft form. I want to send my agent the best book possible, and even when you send what you think is the best book possible, your agent will probably still have feedback and suggestions...maybe just not as much.

Anyway, I think it's a personal decision. There is nothing wrong with using betas, and there is nothing wrong with not using betas. Whatever is better for you and for your manuscript!

[Prawn]

I asked my agent, and she didn't want to see the second book until it was polished, so it's out to a dozen betas right now.

[maddythemad]

Why don't you ask your agent? Chances are, s/he'd like you to give them a cleaner copy of your book. However, my agent has said that I should send it to her in any version I want to, and she seems to mean it (nevertheless, I think I'll try to avoid sending her a typo-ridden version. :D)

[funidream]

My agent was an editor for many years prior to becoming an agent, and she asked to see my progress on the WIP. By virtue of my writing style (I don't write a first draft. I work each chapter in a linear fashion until it is as perfect as I can get it before moving on to the next) she has been reading my WIP in serial style, about three chapters at a time. She is proving to be a wonderful beta reader – not so much for vetting, but for giving me loads of encouragement.

My agent suggested I send the first three chapters over to my editor at Berkley, which has resulted in drumming up some additional excitement there.

But I will add that all pages must first pass muster with my most trusted and brutally honest beta - my husband.

[ishtar'sgate]

I don't use betas and I doubt I ever will. If I rely on someone else to do my editing I'll get lazy. I've observed that a lot of input from someone outside of publishing puts the author in a bad position when it comes time to work with an editor. I've also seen fine writing reduced to mediocrity - still saleable but not nearly as good as it could have been. If you're happy with your work, send it to the agent. If you're not, put it aside for a month or so then look at it with fresh eyes. You'll see where it falls short. But that's just me. Many of you seem to like using betas. I can't. I think my work would suffer.
Linnea

[Dustry Joe]

I'm with you on that. It sounds like a lot of people here think you can't write a book by yourself. Matter of fact, people have done.

[CheshireCat]

I'm with you on that. It sounds like a lot of people here think you can't write a book by yourself. Matter of fact, people have done.

Some of us have done it for years.

[job]

Depends on what you use betas for.

My beta says 'Huh?" and "This feels a little flat though here." and catches typos I've missed.
(Though the latter is not her job.)

She's not a critic or a 'reader', so much as a second pair of eyes,
because I miss obvious stuff.

[Dustry Joe]

I can do that myself. Can they scratch your back about half way down, right in the middle where I can't get to it myself without using my pennywhistle or something obnoxious and still not getting it just right so i don''t have to scratch it again in a couple of minutes?


If so I'll give it a shot. Agents won't do that for you, I'll tell you that.

[Provrb1810meggy]

It sounds like a lot of people here think you can't write a book by yourself.

I don't think most of us who are pro-beta are saying that. We're just saying having betas and using them is an option, an option you could use to your advantage if you think it would work for you. I think it's obvious that they aren't a neccesity to every writer's process. Some writers don't use them and would be negatively impacted, while some writers do use them and are positively impacted. Some writers use them but don't really need them, and perhaps some writers do.

Let's all agree to respect other writers' methods, even if we don't agree with them.

[bethany]

I very much like critiquing, and I learn so much from doing it. I could write a book by myself, and so could my critique partners, but I get so much from seeing their processes, and I love to have their feedback.

I learn as much from critiquing (I see things that other writers don't do as well as me, and I see things that awe me :) as I do from receiving critiques. It's a great process. I also trust my gut on what to change and what not to change. Occasionally my gut is right.

[bethany]

Oh, and might I add, very respectfully, that the topic of this thread is agent or beta. Not can you write a book without beta readers. So, I think interpreting people who say they use betas as saying a person can't write a book without them, is kind of, well, misinterpreting what's being said.

The question is, do you send it straight from your eyes to the agent, or do you pass it through other sets of eyes. Obviously opinions vary. :)

[Julie Worth]

Depends on what you use betas for.

My beta says 'Huh?" and "This feels a little flat though here."

Exactly.

[kuwisdelu]

I second what job and Julie Worth are saying.

My wife doesn't say "hey why is this car red? i prefer green" or "I think this part would sound better phrased differently" or anything like that. She never wants me to change anything that would affect my voice, which seems to be the primary concern here. She never even wants me to change anything, really. She simply tells me what's wrong She doesn't tell me how to fix it, because she knows that's my job, much like an agent would. She knows my voice, and she wants to preserve it just as much as me or any agent.

Once you're good enough to land an agent, a good beta reader will serve to tell you where things just don't work that you can't always tell yourself, because you're too close to your work. Sure, as you grow as a writer, you'll pick up more and more of these things on your own, but there's almost ALWAYS something you haven't foreseen.

I gave this example before, but in one of my stories, I had some really difficult character development that I thought I'd managed, but it turns out it just didn't work. My wife told me so (and that's ALL she told me--"I hate Kate right now. Make me like her."). I fixed it, and it made it a much better story. The next story I attempted a similarly difficult character development, and her only comment on that story was "It's fine."

These are probably the exact same kind of comments an agent would give you. In my opinion, those are the kind of comments a good beta will generate (sometimes better if your beta knows your work and voice really well, as is my case, I think). So it really depends in your case, I guess. Which would you and your agent prefer--fixing them before or after?

[Dustry Joe]

Once you're good enough to land an agent, a good beta reader will serve to tell you where things just don't work that you can't always tell yourself, because you're too close to your work.

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think this. Has this been your experience?

[blacbird]

Once you're good enough to land an agent, a good beta reader will serve to tell you where things just don't work that you can't always tell yourself, because you're too close to your work.

You're only "good enough" to land an agent when you actually do land an agent, after which, shouldn't your agent become your beta reader?

caw

[kuwisdelu]

Just out of curiosity, what makes you think this. Has this been your experience?

Once you've gotten beyond the basics of writing, like "show v. tell" and POV handling and decent grammar, I think this is what a good beta reader should do. Once you've grown enough as a writer that you have a handle on the basics, then I think you should be able to tell yourself when you're telling too much, when you're jumping heads, or when you have inconsistencies, and things like this. If a writer hasn't learned enough to do that much yet, that's probably the reason for those rejection slips. But as I and others have pointed out, as the writers, we'll always be too close to our work to notice some things that fresh eyes will be able to see. And to me, a good beta is one who'll recognize those things and leave your voice alone.

You're only "good enough" to land an agent when you actually do land an agent, after which, shouldn't your agent become your beta reader?

caw

I believe that's what this whole discussion's been about. Obviously, the way I use my beta is certainly a function any worthwhile agent could do just as easily. But it's a matter of personal taste and what your agent wants. That's why I agree with those who suggested asking an agent who he or she would like.

I'm just presenting my case as one I would definitely always show my beta my work first, for reasons I've already stated. Some people aren't as close to their beta readers, or don't have access to ones as good, or would just prefer their agent's opinion over someone non-industry, as someone else put it. Agents can change. But I have someone who's been there since I began writing (well), knows my voice and style better than any agent could (non-industry argument notwithstanding for me), and always has good suggestions. Obviously, others will have other situations.

Since this discussion exists, and there have been valid points on both sides, I don't think there's any right answer for everyone, as is always the case with writing. It depends on your own situation.

[ORION]

Same as prawn. My agent likes to have it as polished as possible - she knows I use betas and is supportive of this- We have had a lot of conversations about how she likes to see my work- That's really the point- if betas help you then use them - if they don't then don't - I know published authors who both use them and dont-

[Dustry Joe]

Originally Posted by Dustry Joe
Just out of curiosity, what makes you think this. Has this been your experience?


Once you've gotten beyond the basics of writing, like "show v. tell" and POV handling and decent grammar, I think this is what a good beta reader should do. Once you've grown enough as a writer that you have a handle on the basics, then I think you should be able to tell yourself when you're telling too much, when you're jumping heads, or when you have inconsistencies, and things like this. If a writer hasn't learned enough to do that much yet, that's probably the reason for those rejection slips. But as I and others have pointed out, as the writers, we'll always be too close to our work to notice some things that fresh eyes will be able to see. And to me, a good beta is one who'll recognize those things and leave your voice alone.

So this has been your experience? You got good enough to get an agent and found that you transcended the need to have other people read your work for you?
How long did that take you?

[kuwisdelu]

So this has been your experience? You got good enough to get an agent and found that you transcended the need to have other people read your work for you?
How long did that take you?

Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about. You must have really misunderstood me, because that's the complete opposite of what I'm saying. What I've been saying all along is that I DO need someone. In my case, a very trusted someone who knows my writing very well and whose opinion I respect, so I've been very lucky in that regard.

It seems to me that some of the people here who are suggesting sending ia novel directly to the agent before passing it through a beta are the ones who are saying they've transcended the need to have other people read their work. Their argument (much simplified) is that we should learn to polish a novel up completely on our own, which I have admitted I cannot do.

Maybe you misunderstood me because I'm wrong about which aspects of writing are the more difficult and which are the basics for most people? All I've said is that I think I can safely see when I'm showing or telling properly, when I change POV, when I accidentally change a character's beverage from "whiskey" to "gin" to "Scotch," etc. on my own, because those don't require as much objectivity. However, I find things like character development, plot development, pacing, believable dialogue, etc., to be more difficult to judge without the more distant, objective viewpoint of a beta reader, so that's where I rely on mine to tell me when I'm doing something wrong.

Maybe there are some people here who think they've gotten beyond the need for betas, but I'm certainly not one of them. Sometimes I'm able to polish up the odd story on my own that doesn't need any more fixing, but as I've said at least twice before, I still depend on my trusted beta to point out gaping flaws in my work that I couldn't have seen on my own.

I think you need to reread my post, because I've firmly based myself in the "still uses and will always use a beta reader" camp.

[kuwisdelu]

Upon rereading my post, I think I found what might have caused some confusion:

Once you've gotten beyond the basics of writing, like "show v. tell" and POV handling and decent grammar, I think this is what a good beta reader should do.


By "this" I meant everything I'd described in my previous post about how I use my beta reader, and NOT the aspects of writing I described in that particular sentence. I have a bad habit of referring to things that were on-topic five minutes ago in conversation that no one else is talking about anymore and thus confusing everyone. If that was the case here, I apologize for my extremely outdated antecedent.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I have an agent sending my fiction around. Now I'm on my way to completing my next novel. I'm wondering if I should send this first to my agent or first to a couple of trusted beta readers before I send it to the agent. I realize the agent's word will be final (unless I want to leave this agent) but I don't want to give the agent anything less than my best shot.

P.S.: I've briefly told the agent about the book and received favorable response.I think this is a preference thing. If you feel more comfortable sending it to a beta first, go right ahead. But since you already have had experience with agents, you can answer this question better than most of us in regards to your own writing.

Me personally, I try to polish the story as best I can and then I submit it to the agent. I wouldn't dream of sending something I didn't think was my best work and I don't feel I need a beta to tell me that.

[Dustry Joe]

Upon rereading my post, I think I found what might have caused some confusion:

What's confusing me is I keep asking, "So this is based on your experiences of working with agents?" and you keep saying how writers work once they get good enough to have agents, but not how you derive that impresssion.

[job]

You're only "good enough" to land an agent when you actually do land an agent, after which, shouldn't your agent become your beta reader?


I'm sure there are agent/writer pairs out there where the agent goes over the work with a careful red pen and suggests revisions.
Whatever works for these folks. Fine.


But, IMO,
writing --
with or without that final fresh pair of beta eyes in the last stage --
is the writer's job.
I don't see revision as part of the agent's job.

[Mandy]

I send to betas, definitely. I only want my agent to see my best work.

[CheshireCat]

You're only "good enough" to land an agent when you actually do land an agent, after which, shouldn't your agent become your beta reader?

caw


:Clap:

Just FYI, some agents do not like betas or critique groups. I know mine doesn't; she feels that 1) writers tend to lean on them too much rather than learn what they need to know on their own and 2) too many groups/betas damage the writer's voice in the process of "fixing" their work.

Yes, it's an individual decision and choice.

But, as I said, know the dangers. And it's best to have a frank talk with your agent early-on, so you both know where you stand with regards to what input is acceptable for you and your work.

[Julie Worth]

:Clap:

Just FYI, some agents do not like betas or critique groups. I know mine doesn't...



It's really none of the agent's business how you write. After all, if she liked what you sent her and signed you, why should she mess with the process? To call an agent and ask permission to do what you've been doing shows a definite lack of self confidence.

[badducky]

I have an answer that goes like this: "It depends..."

Each project is different.

Sometimes I use Betas, and sometimes I don't. It depends.

And I know which times and places to seek betas because I say to myself, "You know, I actually think this needs another set of eyes..."

[kuwisdelu]

What's confusing me is I keep asking, "So this is based on your experiences of working with agents?" and you keep saying how writers work once they get good enough to have agents, but not how you derive that impresssion.

No. I have no idea how other people work. As I said before, I'm just saying what works for me, and what I think is the best way to use beta readers. The primary concern here seems to be that beta readers will ruin a writers voice while trying to "fix" the writing, and that writers will come to rely on beta readers as crutches to their writing, and I'm saying it doesn't have to be that way, and there exist beta readers who won't jeopardize voice and who aren't crutches for lackluster writing. I think a second pair of eyes, whether a beta reader or an agent, is a good idea at some point. Sometimes it's not always necessary, but sometimes I think it is.

[CheshireCat]

It's really none of the agent's business how you write. After all, if she liked what you sent her and signed you, why should she mess with the process? To call an agent and ask permission to do what you've been doing shows a definite lack of self confidence.

Excuse me? Just FYI, I don't ask my agent for "permission" to do anything, and haven't over the nearly twenty years of our relationship. And she wouldn't dream of doing anything whatsoever to interfere with the process that works for me -- or any of her other writers.

And as anyone who knows me would tell you (after laughing hysterically), I have no lack of self-confidence, especially when it comes to my writing process.

[kuwisdelu]

Excuse me? Just FYI, I don't ask my agent for "permission" to do anything, and haven't over the nearly twenty years of our relationship. And she wouldn't dream of doing anything whatsoever to interfere with the process that works for me -- or any of her other writers.

And as anyone who knows me would tell you (after laughing hysterically), I have no lack of self-confidence, especially when it comes to my writing process.



I think what you said is exactly what she was trying to say.

[Nateskate]

I've had Beta Readers, but none saw the version of the story that went to the publisher that accepted it.

The Publisher loved the story and said they couldn't wait for Book two, at which time I told them I wanted to make changes and polish it up. But I'm thinking I'd like a Beta Reader's opinion before I send the second novel, because it's kind of like going from the Fellowship of the Ring to the Breaking up of the fellowship, which changes the structure of the story. It's not like a sequel at all in tone.

[popmuze]

As I said in a post in my other thread, I'm always amazed when I see the acknowledgement page in a major writer's book where he thanks the person who read the first draft, the person who typed the second draft, the agent, the editor, the wife, the kids, the teachers, and the National Endowment for the Arts, who all read earlier editions of the work.

Me? I'm trying to write a funny book and I'm just not sure all (or any) of the humor is working (except to me, but I've always been my own best audience).

I do admit my agent thinks my writing is funny and has encouraged me to get more outrageous.

But right now I'm having too good a time to ask for anyone's advice.

[Dustry Joe]

Originally Posted by Dustry Joe
What's confusing me is I keep asking, "So this is based on your experiences of working with agents?" and you keep saying how writers work once they get good enough to have agents, but not how you derive that impresssion.

No. I have no idea how other people work. As I said before, I'm just saying what works for me, and what I think is the best way to use beta readers. The primary concern here seems to be that beta readers will ruin a writers voice while trying to "fix" the writing, and that writers will come to rely on beta readers as crutches to their writing, and I'm saying it doesn't have to be that way, and there exist beta readers who won't jeopardize voice and who aren't crutches for lackluster writing. I think a second pair of eyes, whether a beta reader or an agent, is a good idea at some point. Sometimes it's not always necessary, but sometimes I think it is.

This is really getting funny. So let me help you. You aren't a pro and don't have an agent and don't really know much about how it works for writers in that league. Huh?

Nothing wrong with that. But it definitely qualifies your remarks, and your sounding so knowing aobut that level of work.

[Dustry Joe]

'm trying to write a funny book and I'm just not sure all (or any) of the humor is working

Good luck. Or God Help You, or whatever. It's SUCH a pain trying to sell humor. Everybody likes funny writing, but nobody wants to take any chances on it. I'm starting to lose my sense of humor over the whole thing.

Sounds like you've got an inside track though, so we'll all hope for the best.

[triceretops]

I have a related question... for those of you with agents, do you wait until you've finished a project before sending it to your agent or do you send them snippets along the way (like sending the partial once it's complete)?

In my case this depends. Several editors contacted my agent requesting a specific book, genre and characters. He asked me if I was interested in giving it a try. I said yeah, and he gave me the details and said "Giddyup." So I did. In this case he wanted to see three chapter hunks and monitored it all the way to the end. My other books were left in the queue, because he wanted to prioritize it. My next project, I think I'll give him the first three and leave it at that--just to see if I have a good up-front hook. Otherwise, they'll go to the end.

Tri

[popmuze]

My next project, I think I'll give him the first three and leave it at that--just to see if I have a good up-front hook. Tri


I thought I would do this myself, but now I'm enjoying the writing too much to face any kind of more objective reality. But if (and when) I have a couple of other projects competing for my time, I could see taking advantage of having an agent who would read and comment on a partial.

[kuwisdelu]

This is really getting funny. So let me help you. You aren't a pro and don't have an agent and don't really know much about how it works for writers in that league. Huh?

Nothing wrong with that. But it definitely qualifies your remarks, and your sounding so knowing aobut that level of work.

I never claimed to be a pro or have an agent; I just said how I work. And you can tell me that I don't know how it works however much you like, but I'm certainly not going to change how I work, and I think the varied responses to this thread is pretty indicative that there are plenty of writers and agents who work both ways. While there may be a lot of authors who send things straight to their agent, and while that may work for a lot, examine all the testimonies on this board and interviews with authors and such, and you'll see there are plenty of writers who use and rely on beta readers before sending work on to their agents. There are plenty of other writers who can and do work the way I do who are professional.

Just because you may have an agent and are professional doesn't mean everyone who is works the way you do.

Why are you so against the use of beta readers, anyway? Have you had bad experiences? Because to say that only agents and house editors have enough understanding of voice and writing in general that they are the only ones who can possibly offer decent editorial advice is just close-minded. Either way, I can't think of any agent who would tell a writer "No. I MUST be the first person to see it!" and unless you can tell me one, I'm not sure what you see so wrong about my posts.

You say that once we have an agent, then that agent's opinion we must respect and value above all others sparing the publisher. The thing is--that's not going to happen. Yes, I will value their opinion on the market above all others sparing the publisher, but at the end of the day, I want to sell a book that I'm proud of, that I'm happy with, and that the person whose opinion matters the most to me likes. I don't think Zelda would have let F. Scott Fitzgerald sell a book she didn't like.

[Dustry Joe]

to say that only agents and house editors have enough understanding of voice and writing in general that they are the only ones who can possibly offer decent editorial advice is just close-minded. Either way, I can't think of any agent who would tell a writer "No. I MUST be the first person to see it!" and unless you can tell me one,
Nobody said any of that but you. Nobody's telling you to do or not anything. Good luck

[bethany]

I have to say that I think saying "writers in that league" could be an insulting assertion. Unless you are Stephen King, JK Rowling, or another mega star, we're all in the same league. The person posting their query in SYW today could be the person with a pre-empt or auction tomorrow.

Obviously once you have an agent/editor you have some experience that others haven't had yet. It doesn't mean that their common sense answers are worthless, and it doesn't shed any light about what league they are in.

[Dustry Joe]

What's so insulting about that? If you are selling books, or selling writing or have an agent or ARE an agent, you have more to say on the topic than those who don't.

What you are saying is analogous to somebody saying, "other than Alex Rodriguez and Roger Clemens and a few, we're all in the same league". Actually no. A-Rod and Roger are in the same league as the lowliest pinch-hitter just up to the majors from AAA in Durham. And all of them are in a different league from AAA players, college players, highschool players, little league players, etc.

Writers get enough real insults without having to conjure them up out of nothing.

I felt that this poster was trying to pretend to more experience--and thus credibility--in the field than his actual life warranted. There is nothing insulting about not selling your writing. But you have to admit it puts one at a disadvantage when telling others how to better sell theirs.

[ishtar'sgate]

This thread is getting a bit touchy and heated. Beta or agent, we all do what feels right to us. I don't use beta readers. I went to some lengths to explain why on another thread so I won't repeat myself. I have a friend who used 5 beta readers. I love her book. That's how SHE works best but it isn't how I work best. There is no better or worse way to do things and no right or wrong. We should all feel free to do as we please and not be carped at because we don't do it the way the majority thinks we should. I admire and appreciate authors who operate with beta readers as well as those who operate without beta readers. Whether published or unpublished, all writers want their work to be the best it can be and how we arrive at that point is entirely personal choice.
Linnea

[kuwisdelu]

Linnea's right; we all work the way we feel is best. I was just sharing my own way of working, which I think all of us were, as part of a discussion about how we all work. If anyone other than Dustry Joe feels I've misrepresented myself, too, then I'm sorry to you. That definitely wasn't my intent. I just thought I was taking part in an open discussion about what works best for us as far as beta readers.

[bethany]

the words not in the same league are what are insulting. Perhaps saying writers with different levels of experience might be more accurate.

There are people here who are signing with agents and selling books every day. Someone you're talking down to because they don't have an agent could have a preempt or an auction and be the next amazing writing discovery.

And I have no idea who those people you are talking about are, sorry.