When Did "Beta" Become a Dirty Word?

[Danthia]

I've noticed a lot of comments recently about beta readers and crit groups and a larger percentage than I'd expect act like it's bad to have either, especially after your first sale.

Why?

It's impossible to be objective about our own work. We know every line, every word, every nuance. Although we might get close, how can we tell if there's too much or not enough detail to make a scene clear? How do we know if a character is coming across as we intended? How do we know the pacing and tension is right? We need readers to give us the objectivity we can't give ourselves.

I don't think this is bad, and I don't think it ends just because we get an agent or sell our first book.

One caveat here...
This applies to good beta readers and crit groups. I wouldn't use my mother as a beta reader. She knows squat about my genre, market or writing in general. I choose my crit groups for their skill and knowledge, and I know I can trust their judgements. I also know if I disagree, then fine, I can ignore them. The trick to crit groups is finding ones you can trust, then doing only what you feel will make the book better. Heck, even my agent tells me not to do what she says if I truly feel it's the wrong thing to do.

I don't mean to start any heated debates or anything, whatever works for you, go with it, but it just flabbergasts me to see so many people act like beta readers and crit groups are the crutch to your first novel, and after that they aren't needed anymore. Like they're some rite of passage you have to go through even if you don't want it.

Testing your work to see it if does what you want it to do is a good thing. Beta readers and crit groups are just one way of doing that, nothing more, nothing less. I just don't get why so many treat them like dirty little secrets they hope no one discovers.

[Danger Jane]

Really? I thought the overwhelming consensus was that beta readers, especially, are always indispensable.

Mine are.

[CACTUSWENDY]

:D...As I said on another thread.....I love my beta reader. She cuts deep and swift. (And boy, does the blood flow.) I had to up my insurance rates to cover the extra Dr. visits but I think it will be well worth it. ;)

[Susan Lanigan]

I wouldn't use my mother as a beta reader.

I outlined the plot of one of my stories to my mother. She thought it was are perverse and immoral and that all the characters were degenerate.

However it was her suggestion about the ending that made the story. Without her, I'd probably never have finished it, and no other ending could possibly have worked.

[BarbaraNC]

I was a beta reader for someone and was honest - the plot just did not work, nor did the ending - but the novel was written well and there were great characters.

I never heard from the writer again after the feedback... and I absolutely wasn't overly harsh. :-/

It kind of made me mad, too, because at the time I had to move out of state and still took the time to read the work, and, I'd thought I was reading a short story and instead was sent 140 pages.

Anyway maybe some people don't want constructive criticism when they don't like betas...maybe they just want hand-holding?

[ClaudiaGray]

I, too, think more people came down in favor of having betas and/or crit groups. Having alternate perspectives is, IMHO, a must.

Some people find them demoralizing or confusing, but I think that the problem there is not having a beta or a crit group. It's either not having the right betas or crit group, or exposing the work before it's ready for such review (and before we're ready to hear it.)

[Thrillride]

Susan Lanigan said : "I outlined the plot of one of my stories to my mother. She thought it was are perverse and immoral and that all the characters were degenerate."

I almost spit my mocha all over the computer!LOL!
There is no way I would have my mom beta for me. She can read it when it's publishable, thanks.

I think it's awesome that your mom came up with a great ending for you.

Betas and crits are absolutely essential. I have zero idea why someone would not find them useful. That being said, I have made some wrong choices in crits. One of them is the type of person who isn't looking at "your" story, but rather, creating theirs. It did me no good whatsoever to have some one say that they didn't like the color of her hair. or ask why she was driving the car she was driving - they would make it a ___ (whatever).

This type of person doesn't know how to actually crit or beta. So, I do think it's important that you chose people who can help you with what you are looking for. I use a mix of a couple of people who are writers and then I pass it on to two people who are readers. Readers of my genre to be specific. I think this is important. Of course, other people who read outside your genre may pick up the book (God willing), however, in critting I think you need the like-minded.

For instance, I critted a couple of chapters for someone who writes fantasy. I probably helped her with a few things like POV and story flow. But then she asked me if anything in the chapters sounded cliche and I was stumped. I don't read fantasy. Any fantasy. I have no idea if there were cliches or not. It was all new to me...so nope! No cliches! :D(Helpful, no?)

~Thrill

[Susan Lanigan]

Ah she may disapprove, but she can't help having an opinion all the same :D

[Sage]

I adore having betas, and not just one, but many so I can see the trends in suggestions. One beta can be hit or miss. If one beta has a problem with a tiny part of the novel that colors the rest of it, or if one is not particularly crit-oriented, then you might get feedback that does not exactly tell you anything. If you have several betas, and they all say, "The beginning is too slow," or "That plot point does not make sense," you know that you have a problem. If one says, "Won't that alienate people?" and everyone else is saying, "Oh my god, that's awesome!" you're probably okay.

[ORION]

I am agented and published and still have the very same beta readers. I just used one for the first few chapters of my new novel. My agent still gets polished work. What's different now (between being published and not) is that I have lots of beta reader offers -
The thing I don't do is have my betas micromanage. I give them specific tasks.
I think it's important not to give betas work that is in rough draft form and I don't give readers chapter by chapter but that's just me.

[BarbaraKE]

I've noticed a lot of comments recently about beta readers and crit groups and a larger percentage than I'd expect act like it's bad to have either, especially after your first sale.

One caveat here...
This applies to good beta readers and crit groups.

I think your caveat is important.

First of all, I think beta readers are important. I profusely thank anyone (including people here) who have taken the time to read parts/all of my novel and make comments. I've incorporated many of their suggestions.

But I can see two problems with beta readers.

The first one I've run into is that they don't agree. Everyone is different. I tend to run into situation where half of them love a particular scene and the rest hate it.

Which leads into the second problem. We, as authors, have to accept that we can't please everyone. We tend to take criticism to heart (as do most people) and do backflips trying to 'fix' something that shouldn't be changed. Books are not written by committee.

[David I]

I wasn't aware there was a widespread prejudice against betas or critique groups...

I personally don't find crit groups to be useful except for looking at the opening chapters of a book and telling me if it engages them. But I love my betas when I have a finished ms. to hand them.

[CheshireCat]

Which leads into the second problem. We, as authors, have to accept that we can't please everyone. We tend to take criticism to heart (as do most people) and do backflips trying to 'fix' something that shouldn't be changed. Books are not written by committee.

Since I'm one of those who consider betas useful for some writers -- but a potential problem, especially once an aspiring writer turns pro, I wanted to comment. But somebody else got in ahead of me with the above point -- a very valid one.

Books are not written by committee, and yet all through the industry, people will be questioning what you did, how you did it, and why you did it. From agent to editor to copy editor to reviewer to reader (oh, the joys of email!), you will be second guessed. Some of those people will have smart, helpful comments -- and some will just have an opinion.

If you have, as the above poster notes, been turning backflips to please the first readers of your work, why would you stop turning those backflips when the industry pros start picking your work apart?

When do you stop? When does your work become your work, your story, your voice? After the betas? After your agent's input? Your editor's? The copyeditor's? Are you going to be haunted by a review that trashes your favorite character or pours scorn on your idea of a plot twist?

Assuming, for a moment, that you're a competent writer with sufficient technical skills and have the necessary creative imagination to tell a story, the only thing that's going to set you apart from all the other skilled and creative writers out there is your voice.

And voice, especially in the beginning, is a fragile thing, easily influenced and even destroyed.

The point I made in another thread is that most non-industry beta readers are not going to understand, much less value, voice. That isn't what they're looking at. They'll tell you if they find the story believable, if your sentences get tangled, if they like or dislike a character, and whether the ending worked for them.

And that's fine. But if you as the writer make changes based on these opinions, you are already allowing your voice to be influenced. You told your story a specific way, and because a few readers didn't like this or that, you made changes. In making those changes, you may well smooth out the wrinkles and polish all those rough edges -- and end up with something pretty and well-written, and utterly bland.

Look, it isn't always true that industry pros have more than an opinion to offer (believe me). Some baby editors and young, aggressive agents out there also lack the experience or even awareness of voice. But they're still more likely to "get" it than your average beta reader. And they're less likely to request or suggest changes that will damage the "something unique" that originally drew them to your work.

If you as a writer feel betas are necessary to your process, then so be it. What works for you, works for you.

Just be aware of the dangers.

And for those who say we can't possibly be objective about our work, you're entirely right. We can't, not without time and distance. But to rely on others is not, IMO, the answer. Because as writers, we can learn to develop our storytelling instincts, through sheer practice.

We won't get everything right. We won't please every reader. But we'll learn to view our work solely through our own prism, and that really is the only way to develop a unique voice.

My opinion.

[BarbaraNC]

Not harsh whatsoever. We were in a workshop together and we had all critiqued each other according to how the instructor directed the workshop. The fact was her mystery was not suspenseful and her ending was a scooby doo ending. If someone is sending me a mystery to critique then they better want the truth! Certainly they don't have to change it according to what I say...but, I'm not going to fail to suggest changes if the ending is totally unbelievable.

Edited to add that I certainly didn't give her my feedback in the way I'm giving it now! Gentle suggestions. But facts were facts. She had more than one reader so she was free to toss my critique out the window. But if my book just didn't work plot wise I would want to know.

I think assuming that she wanted hand-holding and not a good critique is a bit harsh. Did you normally read her genre? Perhaps her writing style wasn't a good match for you. There are millions of readers. To expect a writer to completely change their novel for one's opinion is rather unrealistic. I certainly would never overhaul my whole novel for one person's opinion. And change the whole plot? Whoa. That's like saying your novel is worthless. I'm sure she appreciated the time you took, but maybe because of your move, the tone was not appreciated. It's hard to take criticism too, especially when the reader bashes your plot right off the bat. Hopefully, you'll find someone who appreciates your criticisms. :popcorn:

[BarbaraNC]

I would never use a critique group, probably because I've read two books by two different literary agents who call them the kiss of death.
:e2fish:

I think they certainly can be. It depends on the group. I mentioned my workshop in another post and there was always a lot of disagreement about each person's piece. You kind of learned who to take seriously and who to thank politely and move on. However, you can find great people in these critique groups who will honestly and with credibility tell you when something isn't working (and that is needed, as I said in my other post).

I do agree with the other poster though that voice can be squelched. I think it takes time to realize when someone's critiquing your voice vs. when someone had a valid point about story. Now in my workshop, which doesn't meet regularly, the instructor strongly disagreed with some critique of my short story...he saw some things the way I intended, and I left them. I think that was the right thing to do. But, there were some criticisms that most of the workshop shared, and I think in that case it's wise to go back and see if there's another way to do it. (I ended up cutting one scene completely and now it's much better).

[Esopha]

When do you stop? When does your work become your work, your story, your voice? After the betas? After your agent's input? Your editor's? The copyeditor's? Are you going to be haunted by a review that trashes your favorite character or pours scorn on your idea of a plot twist?

Assuming, for a moment, that you're a competent writer with sufficient technical skills and have the necessary creative imagination to tell a story, the only thing that's going to set you apart from all the other skilled and creative writers out there is your voice.

And voice, especially in the beginning, is a fragile thing, easily influenced and even destroyed.

This is why I never crit voice-related issues when I beta. When I do, it's because the "problem" is something that really, really bothers me, and even then I'll make a point to tell the author that it's a voice issue and nothing more.

I probably wouldn't notice the voice issue if I wasn't reading as a beta reader, anyway.

I think it's pretty easy to see when someone's critting your voice, too, and I think it's important for every writer to be able to make that distinction. Is it a problem with the book, or a "problem" with my voice? Is it something that I think should be fixed?

Let it simmer.

[cethklein]

I wouldn't use a crit group but mainly because I would be afraid of having too many conflicting opinions. Having multiple opinions is good but having them at the same time could lead to confusion.

I have one beta on my book right now. I think having a single beta is a good thing, it allows you to focus more on their critiques. Granted, this only works if your beta is competent. I am fortunate as my beta is exceptional. She not only is perfect for this book as she fully understands the subject matter, but she also is very well versed in the art of writing which helps exponentially. She has not only pointed out some mistakes I have made structurally, but she has also helped me correct some issues of "practicality" in the story.

But as they say, to each their own. Maybe some people prefer crit groups. i suppose it's all down to how well you take criticism and how well you can handle multiple opinions.

[Thrillride]

To be honest, I find all these different opinions to be terribly confusing. LOL!

I wonder what the closest answer is (there cannot be a perfect one since we are all different). I have over 100 books on writing (from noveling to agenting to cheerleading) and most of them say "find a crit group". I am not in one currently, but I keep my eyes open. (I have been in them before, though).

I do have one (sometimes two) wonderful writer(s) that I have to say, truly point out some stuff I just damn well missed. My first friend who gets a looksee at chapters always ends up showing me something that certainly makes the chapter tighter. I just love having that second set of eyes. Sometimes I send it to one other writer friend.

I let one or two others see it much later because I want to see if a fresh set of eyes becomes "hooked" to my story and if they care about the characters.

I just like little extra input. I think it would suck to try to send out and have them point out things that could have been easily caught by a beta. I am wondering if I could actually polish it as much as possible without extra eyes. Would it slow things down for me on the publishing end? Would I get more yeses because I passed it by a beta? I dunno.

On the VERY other hand. I did just the opposite a year ago. I had SO many opinions (including posting a chapter on AW - that was nuts for me) that I became extremely confused with all the different thoughts (and a lot were six on one, half a dozen on the other)....I had no idea what I was suppose to change or what I was suppose to leave alone. I not only did that on AW, I did it with quite a few other people I knew - with the same chapters. Oy vey.

Freaked me out.

Never again.

I don't know if I could give up my last few pacifiers, though.:cry:

~Thrill

[blacbird]

I outlined the plot of one of my stories to my mother. She thought it was are perverse and immoral and that all the characters were degenerate.

Kewl.

caw

[Voyager]

When do you stop? When does your work become your work, your story, your voice? After the betas? After your agent's input? Your editor's? The copyeditor's? Are you going to be haunted by a review that trashes your favorite character or pours scorn on your idea of a plot twist?

Assuming, for a moment, that you're a competent writer with sufficient technical skills and have the necessary creative imagination to tell a story, the only thing that's going to set you apart from all the other skilled and creative writers out there is your voice.

And voice, especially in the beginning, is a fragile thing, easily influenced and even destroyed.

The point I made in another thread is that most non-industry beta readers are not going to understand, much less value, voice. That isn't what they're looking at. They'll tell you if they find the story believable, if your sentences get tangled, if they like or dislike a character, and whether the ending worked for them.

And that's fine. But if you as the writer make changes based on these opinions, you are already allowing your voice to be influenced. You told your story a specific way, and because a few readers didn't like this or that, you made changes. In making those changes, you may well smooth out the wrinkles and polish all those rough edges -- and end up with something pretty and well-written, and utterly bland.



This is brilliant, CC. One of the things I try to be so very careful with when I offer to do a beta is to determine whether or not I like a certain author's 'voice'. If I don't, I shouldn't be betaing, if I do, I will do everything within my power to respect that voice when I am doing beta. Time and time again I see these generic, pat betas done where the same advice is offered regardless of genre, style and voice, and it really frustrates me to see newer writers try to deal with that. Thank you so much for stating this so eloquently.

[Sage]

This is brilliant, CC. One of the things I try to be so very careful with when I offer to do a beta is to determine whether or not I like a certain author's 'voice'. If I don't, I shouldn't be betaing, if I do, I will do everything within my power to respect that voice when I am doing beta. Time and time again I see these generic, pat betas done where the same advice is offered regardless of genre, style and voice, and it really frustrates me to see newer writers try to deal with that. Thank you so much for stating this so eloquently.
I will finish the book even if I realize early on that it's not my style for some reason, but I will let the writer know. "Keep in mind that I don't usually read romances, but..." or "Just so you know, I'm not the biggest fan of present tense..." or whatever it is. I let them know if it's likely to affect my reading, but I also let them know if I think something I said might seem like it's 'cuz it's not my style/voice, but I really feel it's a big problem beyond that. I think keeping the writer informed is really the best way to handle that and then they can choose whether your opinions are too biased or worth listening too.

[Voyager]

That is a good idea. Honest is the best policy. What I usually end up saying is that I'm not really qualified to comment on the style of that genre but that I'd be more than happy to do more of a proofread.

I will finish the book even if I realize early on that it's not my style for some reason, but I will let the writer know. "Keep in mind that I don't usually read romances, but..." or "Just so you know, I'm not the biggest fan of present tense..." or whatever it is. I let them know if it's likely to affect my reading, but I also let them know if I think something I said might seem like it's 'cuz it's not my style/voice, but I really feel it's a big problem beyond that. I think keeping the writer informed is really the best way to handle that and then they can choose whether your opinions are too biased or worth listening too.

[ishtar'sgate]

Beta isn't a dirty word but beta readers just aren't right for me. I attended many many creative writing courses, taught by published authors and acting coaches. They taught me to lose my selfcensorship, be objective and above all put a fair bit of distance between my first draft and my final edits. I don't pick at the manuscript. I leave it alone for several months then come back to it with fresh eyes and a big red pen. I have no pet scenes or words or phrases. Everything is fair game for the chopping block. That said, I've been a beta reader and I understand why some writers depend on them for an objectivity they don't feel they have. But I work better alone, right to the bitter end.:D
Linnea

[TrainofThought]

I don’t think beta readers are taboo it’s just that you should trust and know they’re compatible to your needs. How do you do that with people you don’t know, or even people you do? Not only that how does a new writer know what to change. Yes, we can go with gut feeling, but sometimes our feelings cloud our judgment when you have 2 or 3 betas firing off rules or changing your words to suit them.

I attempted beta readers and I would NEVER do it again unless it is someone I know. This answers the whole ‘trusting your beta.’ I can’t take crits from someone I don’t know because most of the time they are learning along with me and tend to push their writing style on me. Also, if you don’t know them they don’t feel they owe you an explanation regarding non-responses. It makes more work for me to decipher whether their crit is to better my WIP, or hurt it. As a new writer, I’m not going to cause additional worry over breaking a few rules or being bombarded by frivolous crits.

To sum it up, IMHO, beta readers and crit groups are good if you know and trust the individuals. If they match your wants, read your genre, and their opinions make your adventure flourish then you as a writer will prosper.

[Thomma Lyn]

I love my beta readers / critique partners -- I've had quite a few, but the ones who have stuck with me (and with whom I've stuck ;) ) are knowledgeable, forthright, and respectful.

That last -- mutual respect -- is, to my mind, the most important thing for the long haul.


But I can see two problems with beta readers.

The first one I've run into is that they don't agree. Everyone is different. I tend to run into situation where half of them love a particular scene and the rest hate it.

My beta readers / critique partners are all writers, but each person writes in a different genre, with a different style. Needless to say, they don't always agree. But I like that! I don't expect to agree with all feedback I'm given. But what I do like are beta readers / critique partners who give me feedback that makes me think.

Which leads into the second problem. We, as authors, have to accept that we can't please everyone. We tend to take criticism to heart (as do most people) and do backflips trying to 'fix' something that shouldn't be changed. Books are not written by committee.

Absolutely not. And therein lies the challenge -- to walk the line between taking seriously the feedback you are given but knowing and/or figuring out what is pertinent to your book / characters and what to discard.

Nobody's feedback is "objective" -- everyone's opinions on a given work will be colored by their tastes, their experiences, their ideology, philosophy, what have you.

What a writer gains from having beta readers / critique partners are (hopefully) knowledgeable perspectives that differ from her own and which can help her spot potential problems in a story before attempting to launch it into the world.

[spacejock2]

I was lucky enough to get ten or twelve beta readers to go over my latest novel, and they all found something for me to look at. After reading my own novel 20-25 times, I'm a terrible judge of humour, pacing, plot, etc, and it's much better to get crits from a small group than people who've just paid out to buy the book. Still time to fix things, too.

[Thrillride]

You're too cute. Yes, we all have to put on our big girl panties and our thick skin before we come here to play... :e2arms:

See? This works perfectly! My pacifiers (read: a cuppla betas) help me pick out my big girl panties. Then I don't feel so stupid in the big girl locker room.:D

Serously ~ I think I'll stick with a few betas. Someone here mentioned being able to trust your betas or it backfires. I agree. I trust my first lady on the front line explicitly. She hads my best interests at heart, therefore, I don't feel like I need to worry, thick skin or no. She just catches some really cool stuff which is indispensible.

Another beta I like to toss it too occasionally is a professional. A great reason to see her take is that she's been to the other side (the side which I have not) and she gives me good cues/thoughts.

~Thrill

[Shadow_Ferret]

It's impossible to be objective about our own work.
Who says so?

[bethany]

There is another thread about betas somewhere on the board right now- just thought I'd point that out for those who are interested.

I have an (I think) inspiring cp story. My critique group got together in Dec 2005, started critiquing in January. By June we were all agented. (Trident, Lowenstein-Yost, Writers House) by October we had all sold our YA books.

For what it's worth, I learned more from critiquing them than from being critiqued, although that helped a bunch. One of my cps is very commercial and one much more literary. Both of them say things in a very different way than I would say them. I only comment when what they said was awkward, redundant, or hard to understand.

Good beta readers don't mess with your voice.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I have an (I think) inspiring cp story. My critique group got together in Dec 2005, started critiquing in January. By June we were all agented. (Trident, Lowenstein-Yost, Writers House) by October we had all sold our YA books.

That just strikes me as coincidental. Sounds like it was just a group of talented writers in the first place. Seems to me that even if they didn't all critique each others stories that they'd probably have been agented anyway.

[kuwisdelu]

Who says so?

Because we're the ones who wrote it. We know everything about how story already. We know the characters; we know the setting; we know the plot. So with things like character and plot development, it's difficult to forget we already know these things and to figure out whether what we have on the page is enough for our plot and our characters to be well-developed for readers who don't go in knowing all of this beforehand.

Maybe you can make yourself temporarily forget everything about your story before coming back to edit it, but most of us can't.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Because we're the ones who wrote it. We know everything about how story already. We know the characters; we know the setting; we know the plot. So with things like character and plot development, it's difficult to forget we already know these things and to figure out whether what we have on the page is enough for our plot and our characters to be well-developed for readers who don't go in knowing all of this beforehand.

Maybe you can make yourself temporarily forget everything about your story before coming back to edit it, but most of us can't.
I think those things are all assets for editing, not detrements.

It's because I know the characters and situations that I can spot inconsistencies, discrepancies, and continuity errors.

[bethany]

That just strikes me as coincidental. Sounds like it was just a group of talented writers in the first place. Seems to me that even if they didn't all critique each others stories that they'd probably have been agented anyway.


Well, sure I'd love to think I was so talented I didn't need any help. But what if there was a flaw in my first three chapters that would turn off an agent reading a partial? Would they read on? Would I lose my chance at my dream agent, the one who "got" my book over something that I didn't see as a problem, but someone else recognized? I'll never know.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Well, sure I'd love to think I was so talented I didn't need any help. But what if there was a flaw in my first three chapters that would turn off an agent reading a partial? Would they read on? Would I lose my chance at my dream agent, the one who "got" my book over something that I didn't see as a problem, but someone else recognized? I'll never know.
So does this mean you have to run everything you write through this group? What if the group breaks up? Will you never sell anything else?

[kuwisdelu]

I think those things are all assets for editing, not detrements.

It's because I know the characters and situations that I can spot inconsistencies, discrepancies, and continuity errors.

If it's inconsistencies, discrepancies, and continuity errors you want to spot, then yes, it is an asset. But it makes recognizing whether you have a believable character or not a lot harder, because to us they're already real, but from what we have on the page, they might not come alive to the reader. That's why I need my beta reader, anyway.

[JoniBGoode]

That just strikes me as coincidental. Sounds like it was just a group of talented writers in the first place. Seems to me that even if they didn't all critique each others stories that they'd probably have been agented anyway.


Okay, maybe so. But, if a group of talented writers want to hang out together and think that it improves their writing, who are we to tell them that it's wrong?

It seems to me that there is no one "correct" writing process. Some people write on a keyboard and others use pen and ink. Some people use an outline, others wing it. Some people write chapters in order, others use the scattershot method. All of these approaches can produce great work.

Some people use crit groups or beta readers, or both, and some people don't. Both approaches can produce great work. Why is this a problem for some people?

I think each writer has the right to choose the approach that works best for him or her.

[Shadow_Ferret]

That's absolutely true. We're all individuals and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another.

But the OP did ask why about the beta readers and we were providing responses.

[bethany]

So does this mean you have to run everything you write through this group? What if the group breaks up? Will you never sell anything else?

Well, obviously, my agent is going to read past some stupid inconsistency or horrible mistake that I might write in the first chapter. She's my agent, we have a relationship, we've made money together. If I send her something terrible she might tell me to pitch it and start over, but she's not going to terminate the relationship. However, when you are starting a relationship by trying to get an agent, it's different and you want that polish, that for me is hard to accomplish because I am NOT objective.

I still run my manuscripts by my cps. And when they aren't availaible I run them past talented people I've met here on AW.

And again, I learn as much about writing FROM critiquing as I do from BEING critiqued. I've become a better English teacher that way, I think.

[sandyn]

Don't have much to say about beta readers, as I only have one so far and have not heard anything yet. That person had other manuscripts to do before mine.

As for critique groups, my experiences have not been positive. The first group seemed very cliquish...only the 'old' members got time to read and most folks did not have any positive crits to offer--only praise! What good does that do! As for the other group, I was delighted to find a smaller group, but just when I was getting to know some of the members and thought I might actually find a good crit partner, the group's founder (a published author) apparently found better uses for her time and disbanded the group.

Now, don't jump on me! I know there are probably groups out there who are great. I just didn't have the good luck or karma or whatever it takes to find one of those, and I'm just relating my personal experiences.

BTW, ThomasLyn, I have a big white cat who looks like the twin of the one in your avatar. One exception is that one of his ears is 'crumpled,' I suppose from an experience he had after he was kicked out of the house or left behind by a previous owner.

[Dustry Joe]

I don't know when it became a bad word. Hell, I didn't even know it was a word to describe readers at all until these threads. Inapt word, I'd say, but that happens with analogs.

I have only handed out MS to friends and other writers once, ever. Not worth the copy costs. I submit screenplays to peer review sites, but have reached the end of the usefulness of that: not getting any comments that are of use to me.

A friend of mind, a fabulous painter, once told me, "I knew I wasn't a journeyman anymore when I realized that at that point if there was something I couldn't figure out how to do there was nobody I could ask how to do it."

Back to that onetime "beta" shot (you realize that "Betas" are a tropical fish, right?)
I circulated a novel to a dozen friends. All of them locals, all of them writers, editors, language teachers, musician/songwriters, etc. They all LOVED the local color of the book, which featured the city setting and unique culture quite heavily. But half of them had trouble with the amounts of sex and violence.
I had an opportunity to show it to a prominent national agent who said, basically, "This could work if you drop all the travelogue and culture crap and just cut to the chase: who did the murder and does he nail the chick?"

Now...guess whose opinion matters most?

[Shadow_Ferret]

Back to that onetime "beta" shot (you realize that "Betas" are a tropical fish, right?)
I think they mean "beta" as in the computer program "beta testing." Which is why I absolutely loath the word. I'm not doing computer programming.

[dempsey]

Back to that onetime "beta" shot (you realize that "Betas" are a tropical fish, right?)

The term most likely derives from the concept of "beta testing" in the tech world. It was a term that sprang up with the rise of the internet. You have "alpha testing" which is in-house (analogous to self-editing) and "beta testing" which is releasing your code to the world (public beta) or an elite few (private beta).

Moreover, the fish is spelled "betta."

ETA

Er, well. What Shadow_Ferret said.

[ORION]

Well I guess I just have to jump in here. When I participate in a critique group at Maui Writers Retreat we do ten pages of our stuff and the group is facilitated by a prominent author- there are both published and unpublished writers. I learn about technique and we generally just gab about writing which is great fun - we do exercises and the aspect of learning to critique and what is style and voice is greatly valued...I don't NEED this but it is what keeps me learning and keeps me fresh.
fast forward to beta readers...they are an entirely different animal. I have many that I have cultivated over the years. Some of them know me well. Some have never met me in person. All are readers. None are writers. They do not tell me how to write or how to fix something. They say things like "I put the book down here and had to force myself to continue" "I laughed here" "I cried here" "I didn't understand this" "That part was too abrupt" "WTF????" "Did you mean to have that African country on the continent of South America?" "Did you know Hawaii HAS no snakes?"
In LOTTERY I had other sailors make sure the sailing stuff rang true for them- even though I sail and live on a boat there may be things I know that the general public doesn't so I had non-sailors read through it also...
My beta readers are not the be all and end all - I compare what each says - if I don't agree I don't change it (just like with my editors suggestions).
Generally though they are useful - When my manuscript was in editing and copyediting the comments from the publisher was that it was the cleanest copy they had ever seen.
I agree with commenters that poor betas and critique groups are worse than none at all AND you can't just be influenced by those who want you to write THEIR story...As CC says - at some point you have to be secure in your vision and not allow your voice to be tampered with...

[Thomma Lyn]

As for critique groups, my experiences have not been positive. The first group seemed very cliquish...only the 'old' members got time to read and most folks did not have any positive crits to offer--only praise! What good does that do! As for the other group, I was delighted to find a smaller group, but just when I was getting to know some of the members and thought I might actually find a good crit partner, the group's founder (a published author) apparently found better uses for her time and disbanded the group.

Online critiquing works well for me, but not in a group -- I like one on one with each person (email). All my critique partners/betas are writers, each of whom writes in a different genre, so I get a wide variety of perspectives on my work, and I help bring a fresh perspective to their work.

I appreciate feedback that makes me think, but I don't feel compelled to apply all feedback to my book. Not all feedback will fit, and whether it fits or not is ultimately up to me, the writer. And that's where mutual respect comes in... a critique partnership or beta reader relationship will not thrive if there isn't sufficient respect on both sides to agree to disagree.

And I don't have to have critique partners/betas in order to write my books, but it sure helps to bounce my novels off these marvelous and knowledgeable people for feedback. :)

It's normal to have a bad experience or two with critique partners, but if you hang in there and remain open to these kinds of relationships even if one or a couple of them don't work out, eventually you'll connect with folks with whom you work well. They are the keepers.

BTW, ThomasLyn, I have a big white cat who looks like the twin of the one in your avatar. One exception is that one of his ears is 'crumpled,' I suppose from an experience he had after he was kicked out of the house or left behind by a previous owner.

Awwww. (btw, it's Thomma Lyn; I'm a woman :D). Your big white kitty sounds precious! And I'm so glad he has a wonderful loving home, now, with you. :)

[FennelGiraffe]

fast forward to beta readers...they are an entirely different animal. I have many that I have cultivated over the years. Some of them know me well. Some have never met me in person. All are readers. None are writers. They do not tell me how to write or how to fix something. They say things like "I put the book down here and had to force myself to continue" "I laughed here" "I cried here" "I didn't understand this" "That part was too abrupt" "WTF????" "Did you mean to have that African country on the continent of South America?" "Did you know Hawaii HAS no snakes?"


That's what beta readers are supposed to be--readers. Not editors, not writing teachers, just readers who are willing to give you feedback as to how your words affect them. What you do with their comments is entirely up to you.

[James D. Macdonald]

"Beta" became a dirty word at 4:57 pm, August the 8th, 2007.

At first few took notice. A motorist would mutter "Beta!" under his breath as a traffic cop pulled him over. A schoolboy would write "Beta" on a wall.

But before long a tourist was removed from an airplane for saying "Beta!" in a loud voice when the pilot announced that the plane would be delayed half an hour at takeoff.

The real breakthrough came with the release of Quentin Tarantino's Blood In The Drains, starring Harvey Keitel, Steve Buscemi, and Madonna. The screenplay used the word "beta" a record-breaking 25,027 times in dialog, and an additional twelve times in scene descriptions.

After that there was no denying it: "Beta" had become a dirty word.

[sandyn]

Awwww. (btw, it's Thomma Lyn; I'm a woman :D). Your big white kitty sounds precious! And I'm so glad he has a wonderful loving home, now, with you. :)

Oops, must've read your name with only one eye...:D. My abject apologies. Yes, I adore my kitty (his name is W.C., for white cat, of course) and he is my snuggle bunny.

Yes, I agree that one good crit partner would be wonderful. Those groups were not the right thing for me, nor was the group setting the right forum. I would love to find one good crit partner I could really trust, and in time, I'm sure I will.

Thanks for the encouragement.

BTW, James, your little story is hilarious.

[Dustry Joe]

The term most likely derives from the concept of "beta testing" in the tech world.
Ya think?


Moreover, the fish is spelled "betta."

Also, spelled "beta"

Moreover, see this and many such sites:
http://www.aquariumfish.net/catalog_pages/bettas/betta_more.htm

[Thrillride]

na

[Danthia]

"Beta" became a dirty word at 4:57 pm, August the 8th, 2007.

At first few took notice. A motorist would mutter "Beta!" under his breath as a traffic cop pulled him over. A schoolboy would write "Beta" on a wall.

But before long a tourist was removed from an airplane for saying "Beta!" in a loud voice when the pilot announced that the plane would be delayed half an hour at takeoff.

The real breakthrough came with the release of Quentin Tarantino's Blood In The Drains, starring Harvey Keitel, Steve Buscemi, and Madonna. The screenplay used the word "beta" a record-breaking 25,027 times in dialog, and an additional twelve times in scene descriptions.

After that there was no denying it: "Beta" had become a dirty word.

Ah, James, thanks for giving me my first great belly laugh of 2008. Bless you ;) And thanks to everyone for their input. It's been very interesting reading.

[jannawrites]

To each their own, but I feel betas act as a crucial sounding board. How else can you objectively separate yourself from your work? Get true feedback and find out if what you've spent so much time on is panning out? Even for someone who's published (which I plan to be someday), using a beta shows you care about the quality of your work and you've not gotten heady about what you're doing. IMHO.

[Dustry Joe]

Well, I've done very little of this and what I did do didn't sell me on it being a good idea.
(How many sentences do you see containing the phrase "did do didn't"?)

Everybody likes the stuff I write. I don't get any "sounding board" or "critique" or anything. People like it. They want to see those characters in a series of books or on screen. They laugh their asses off. They grit their teeth. I have writer groupies for unpublished work.

But guess what? I can't get it past the first level of defense of the publishing industry. The always say the like the writing but there is some reason it won't work out. Nobody cares about life on the border, you can't have sex or violence or drugs in books that would be read by "young adults", the women aren't powerful enough. The women are too powerful. (And, of course, it's not the minority/feminist/coastal/Judaica that agents and editors lust for, but they don't say that. Or that "people" means "people in NYC with liberal arts degrees")

I spent a long time in periodical work and got hard evidence for my impression that people wanted to read what I had to say, but the editors were blocking me and the audience from engaging each other. Now I'm finding it even more true with novels.

So, there are a lot of ways to come to grips with something like that. What I'm doing is chipping away. Essentially trying to produce a book that those little Bennington bitches at the phone desk will pass on upstairs. Once you're in, you're in.

But I really, really, don't see where getting the opinions of a bunch of people around me is going to help with that. I already know what they're going to say.

[jannawrites]

Everybody likes the stuff I write. I don't get any "sounding board" or "critique" or anything. People like it. They want to see those characters in a series of books or on screen. They laugh their asses off. They grit their teeth. I have writer groupies for unpublished work.



Those writer groupies are your betas.

[Thrillride]

Those writer groupies are your betas.

LOL! You say tomato. I say tomah-to.

or (for the romantics)

"That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell just as sweet."

~Why Shakespeare, of course

~Thrill

[jannawrites]

LOL! You say tomato. I say tomah-to.

~Thrill

:e2tomato:

I just had to. When else can I use this smiley? :)

[Thrillride]

:e2tomato:

I just had to. When else can I use this smiley? :)

For sure!!

[kuwisdelu]

Well, I've done very little of this and what I did do didn't sell me on it being a good idea.
(How many sentences do you see containing the phrase "did do didn't"?)

Everybody likes the stuff I write. I don't get any "sounding board" or "critique" or anything. People like it. They want to see those characters in a series of books or on screen. They laugh their asses off. They grit their teeth. I have writer groupies for unpublished work.

But guess what? I can't get it past the first level of defense of the publishing industry. The always say the like the writing but there is some reason it won't work out. Nobody cares about life on the border, you can't have sex or violence or drugs in books that would be read by "young adults", the women aren't powerful enough. The women are too powerful. (And, of course, it's not the minority/feminist/coastal/Judaica that agents and editors lust for, but they don't say that. Or that "people" means "people in NYC with liberal arts degrees")

I spent a long time in periodical work and got hard evidence for my impression that people wanted to read what I had to say, but the editors were blocking me and the audience from engaging each other. Now I'm finding it even more true with novels.

So, there are a lot of ways to come to grips with something like that. What I'm doing is chipping away. Essentially trying to produce a book that those little Bennington bitches at the phone desk will pass on upstairs. Once you're in, you're in.

But I really, really, don't see where getting the opinions of a bunch of people around me is going to help with that. I already know what they're going to say.

If this is where you're coming from, then you and I are not so different as I'd thought. Before my current crit partner came along, who just happens to be my wife, came along, I got much the same reaction as you from most people. Whenever I asked people to critique my stuff, they came back with may a few corrections of typos and comments on the parts they liked and a few proclamations of love, but nothing at all helpful.

Then I came across my wife, who is the harshest critic I've ever known. But that's a good thing. Especially because she has read just about every book in the English language, and many dozens in various other languages. She may not be "industry," but she finds the only problems anyone ever has in my work. They're always the problems I've always known were there, but no one else I asked ever saw. And she always respects my voice, and would never do anything to jeopardize it, which is the concern so many here have about betas.

And I agree--I've never called them betas before recently either.

[CheshireCat]

So, there are a lot of ways to come to grips with something like that. What I'm doing is chipping away. Essentially trying to produce a book that those little Bennington bitches at the phone desk will pass on upstairs. Once you're in, you're in.

You know, I'd try to persuade you that you're wrong, but why bother? With that attitude -- not to mention the casual use of "bitch" when discussing trying to break into an industry the gatekeepers of which are largely women -- I seriously doubt reason would prevail.

[ORION]

Well I agree with CC. Attitude is everything.
The people who I have met in publishing have to guess what readers will buy. And it's not just readers. They have to guess what will appeal to reviewers, to Oprah, to Richard and Judy...
I use betas to make my stories better...I do NOT use them to guarantee being published. I want my work to be the best that it can be... ALWAYS.My betas enjoyed my first book. The editors and agents didn't.
As it happened, with my third book LOTTERY, I was in the right place at the right time and was fortunate enough to be published.
So I keep writing and keep using my betas.
NOTE: It's offensive to me when you use the word bitches in that context.

[Thrillride]

Okay. I have to agree here. While trying to see the view from Dustry Joe's window, I tripped on his "Bennington bitches" phrase. I don't consider myself prude (I think I am, perhaps, far from it), but what happened in my mind right then and there was a subtle "click".

His credibility just went bye-bye for me. And for the puritans that don't like judgements based on an isolated incident, I will add that it wasn't just those words but the whole attitude in that particular post.

I am not being sarcastic at all when I ask, "Is there a possiblity that this holier-than-thou attitude (which is exactly what it is, even if the poster didn't mean it to come across that way) is coming across like this to the Bennington Bitches and their ilk?"

Speak honestly, lose the attitude.

~Thrill

[Sage]

Everybody likes the stuff I write. I don't get any "sounding board" or "critique" or anything. People like it. They want to see those characters in a series of books or on screen. They laugh their asses off. They grit their teeth. I have writer groupies for unpublished work.

But guess what? I can't get it past the first level of defense of the publishing industry. The always say the like the writing but there is some reason it won't work out. Nobody cares about life on the border, you can't have sex or violence or drugs in books that would be read by "young adults", the women aren't powerful enough. The women are too powerful. (And, of course, it's not the minority/feminist/coastal/Judaica that agents and editors lust for, but they don't say that. Or that "people" means "people in NYC with liberal arts degrees")

<snipped for length>

But I really, really, don't see where getting the opinions of a bunch of people around me is going to help with that. I already know what they're going to say.
Then, maybe you just need a more diverse set of beta readers. Because I truly doubt you can find anything that everybody likes. Even among friends with similar tastes, you'll find various levels of enjoyment and constructive crits of a piece of fiction. There are plenty of fictional works that I personally adore, but can still offer a little criticism if asked. Not one of your betas had anything constructive to say?

And agents and editors understand markets, so if there's a market for what you write, chances are that one or more agent/publisher is looking for it. Either the work's not ready, or you're not searching hard enough.

[ORION]

This is a really good point- My betas do not agree on everything- I have a diverse group. When my "boy book beta reader" liked Lottery I realized it might have wide appeal. (When he tells me I need an explosion in the first page I rarely listen to him LOL)

[bethany]

Then, maybe you just need a more diverse set of beta readers. Because I truly doubt you can find anything that everybody likes. Even among friends with similar tastes, you'll find various levels of enjoyment and constructive crits of a piece of fiction. There are plenty of fictional works that I personally adore, but can still offer a little criticism if asked. Not one of your betas had anything constructive to say?

And agents and editors understand markets, so if there's a market for what you write, chances are that one or more agent/publisher is looking for it. Either the work's not ready, or you're not searching hard enough.

Sage said exactly what I was thinking, so I see that I don't have to post (except to agree :) )

[Bubastes]

Ditto Sage and bethany. As my music teacher keeps saying to me, if you think you're doing everything perfectly, you're not stretching far enough and/or you're not being demanding enough about your work.

[kuwisdelu]

Then, maybe you just need a more diverse set of beta readers. Because I truly doubt you can find anything that everybody likes. Even among friends with similar tastes, you'll find various levels of enjoyment and constructive crits of a piece of fiction. There are plenty of fictional works that I personally adore, but can still offer a little criticism if asked. Not one of your betas had anything constructive to say?

And agents and editors understand markets, so if there's a market for what you write, chances are that one or more agent/publisher is looking for it. Either the work's not ready, or you're not searching hard enough.

Sage has an excellent point. Lots of the beta readers I tried out never had anything constructive to say. They all liked my stuff. But that didn't satisfy me because I knew there must have been some problems, and I wasn't going to give up until I found them and figured out how to make my work better. Then I got lucky and found a beta reader who understands my work and always finds the issues with my stories, and I couldn't be more grateful. If I run into another one even half as good, I'll be even luckier.

I don't think it's possible to write a perfect story, even for ourselves. Sure, we can be satisfied by something to a certain extent. But how many of you--every single time you read a piece--can still find something you'd change, even if it's very small. Even if it's only the wording of a single sentence, I can never get away from seeing some problems with my own writing. And if that isn't true...well, I think MeowGirl said it best:

As my music teacher keeps saying to me, if you think you're doing everything perfectly, you're not stretching far enough and/or you're not being demanding enough about your work.

[justpat]

I think beta readers are very important, as long as they are not your spouse or someone else too close to give honest opinions. And of course, if you hear something negative from a beta reader, don't take it out on them. They are just telling you what they think. Either fix the problems or disregard them if you think the reader is wrong, but don't get defensive (which, of course, isn't always easy.)

[althrasher]

I agree with most people on here, that I find betas very helpful. Of course, a lot of times I think betas call us on the things we were hoping to get away with.

[ishtar'sgate]

Even for someone who's published (which I plan to be someday), using a beta shows you care about the quality of your work and you've not gotten heady about what you're doing. IMHO.
It has nothing to do with being heady. I'm as insecure about my writing as the next author but I want the writing to be mine, all mine with no one interfering with my style and voice. I've found that editors are very sensitive to this and their revision suggestions are quite broad, allowing me to retain my voice. Perhaps I'm in the minority but even when things were tough and agents and publishers were turning down my work, I simply paid attention to what they said and kept on revising until my novel was sold. There's a great deal of satisfaction in getting to the finish line on your own even if it takes a while to get there. They say patience is its own reward. I think they're right.
Linnea

[kuwisdelu]

I think beta readers are very important, as long as they are not your spouse or someone else too close to give honest opinions.

That's true very often, but not always. My spouse happens to be my most honest and harshest critic, which I know is true for at least a few other writers on this board, because I've seen them post before. She only gives my emotions the slightest regard when telling me what's wrong with a story, so it's sometimes it's hurtful, but always best for the story in the long run. Of course, if you happen to have a spouse or close friend or relative who isn't able to be honest--in fact, even strangers who try to sugarcoat their critiques--then these aren't really the best opinions to go by....

It has nothing to do with being heady. I'm as insecure about my writing as the next author but I want the writing to be mine, all mine with no one interfering with my style and voice. I've found that editors are very sensitive to this and their revision suggestions are quite broad, allowing me to retain my voice.

I'm the exact same way. That's the reason I think the very best critics are ones who do the same thing. There are beta readers out there who are sensitive to voice and style, too. They're harder to find, I'm sure, but they're there.

[bethany]

It has nothing to do with being heady. I'm as insecure about my writing as the next author but I want the writing to be mine, all mine with no one interfering with my style and voice. I've found that editors are very sensitive to this and their revision suggestions are quite broad, allowing me to retain my voice. Perhaps I'm in the minority but even when things were tough and agents and publishers were turning down my work, I simply paid attention to what they said and kept on revising until my novel was sold. There's a great deal of satisfaction in getting to the finish line on your own even if it takes a while to get there. They say patience is its own reward. I think they're right.
Linnea

I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but I think this response comes across as very condescending, and is exactly what the original poster was asking about as far as a negative attitude toward betas. Or to put it bluntly, an attitude that says, I did it myself, obviously, you can't/couldn't.

I kept revising my novel until it was sold, too. But I had Beta readers look at certain sections, discussed what wasn't working. And I'm confident enough in my voice to know that somebody suggesting that I change something isn't going to change it. Critiques give me something to think about, they don't alter my book until I decide to act upon them.

I don't think my satisfaction when I see my book in print will be any less than yours. And my critique partners and beta readers are all listed in my
acknowledgments, but they are not listed as co-authors for a reason.

I hope this doesn't come off as combative, but I am proud of what I have accomplished, even if I do have people read my work before it gets submitted :).

ETA, oh lord you can see where I had to use spell check, the font is different!

[Sage]

It has nothing to do with being heady. I'm as insecure about my writing as the next author but I want the writing to be mine, all mine with no one interfering with my style and voice. I've found that editors are very sensitive to this and their revision suggestions are quite broad, allowing me to retain my voice. Perhaps I'm in the minority but even when things were tough and agents and publishers were turning down my work, I simply paid attention to what they said and kept on revising until my novel was sold. There's a great deal of satisfaction in getting to the finish line on your own even if it takes a while to get there. They say patience is its own reward. I think they're right.
Linnea
But wouldn't it be better to go to the agents/publishers with a well-revised novel from the beginning? I'm not saying that you might not have to revise it anyway, but why cross several agents off the list because you weren't willing to listen to opinion before you got there?

Why would you change your style and voice because of betas? It's not like the beta suggests something and it's, presto, instant change. You have the discretion to decide whether the suggestions are right for you, and that includes the suggestions by agents/publishers. And how does listening to a beta's suggestions detract from the "satisfaction in getting to the finish line on your own," but listening to an agent's/publisher's does not? Revising based on advice from a reader is revising based on advice from a reader.

If betas don't work for you, that's cool, but dismissing them because they might suggest something you don't like is kinda silly. You're the author, the decision to revise is yours, whether the advice is from a beta, an agent, or an editor. Of course, in all cases, it might affect whether you get published, but that's true about a lot of choices we make about the novel, isn't it?

[Thrillride]

But wouldn't it be better to go to the agents/publishers with a well-revised novel from the beginning? I'm not saying that you might not have to revise it anyway, but why cross several agents off the list because you weren't willing to listen to opinion before you got there?

Why would you change your style and voice because of betas? It's not like the beta suggests something and it's, presto, instant change. You have the discretion to decide whether the suggestions are right for you, and that includes the suggestions by agents/publishers. And how does listening to a beta's suggestions detract from the "satisfaction in getting to the finish line on your own," but listening to an agent's/publisher's does not? Revising based on advice from a reader is revising based on advice from a reader.

If betas don't work for you, that's cool, but dismissing them because they might suggest something you don't like is kinda silly. You're the author, the decision to revise is yours, whether the advice is from a beta, an agent, or an editor. Of course, in all cases, it might affect whether you get published, but that's true about a lot of choices we make about the novel, isn't it?

This was a nice, well thought out post. Thank you.

~Thrill

[DancingMaenid]

I think betas and critique groups can be extremely helpful. For me, a lot of the help is knowing if what I'm trying to have come across actually comes across. I may feel really sure that it does, but if someone doesn't understand something, I'd like to know so I can see if maybe I should word something better, for example. I think it's good to know how an audience might react.

However, I think some things need to be taken into consideration:

- Maturity, confidence, and experience of the writer. I think people who benefit the most from critiques are people who are open to different viewpoints of their story, even critical ones, but also know what they want and are confident in their writing enough to recognize that not all advice necessarily needs to be followed. Also, writers with different levels of experience may need different kinds of input.

- Maturity, assertiveness, and experience of the beta. Someone won't do much good if they're scared to say anything negative, and they won't do much good if they're nasty, either. Also, different betas are going to be better for different things. If I wanted to know if the characters are engaging, people of any level of experience may be able to give some input. But if I wanted advice on a query letter, I'd want someone with experience in that area. Also, some betas may have trouble giving input on genre-specific issues if they're not experienced in the genre.

[Dustry Joe]

Those writer groupies are your betas.

Not hardly. They are infatuated sex objects. Thank God. The idea that they would have anything to say that would make me change my work is laughable.



Then, maybe you just need a more diverse set of beta readers. Because I truly doubt you can find anything that everybody likes. Even among friends with similar tastes, you'll find various levels of enjoyment and constructive crits of a piece of fiction. There are plenty of fictional works that I personally adore, but can still offer a little criticism if asked. Not one of your betas had anything constructive to say?

Again, I don't do this shopping stuff around for comment. Occasionally I'll show something to somebody. Occasionally somebody will show something to me. I don't read work by amateurs and hopefuls because they don't really want to hear what I have to say aobut it.

And no, I don't run into anybody who doesn't like my writing.

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about here. I'm not trying to learn how to write. I'm trying to develop a market for something.

you're not searching hard enough.

How the hell could you possibly know that to be the case of not?????

[BarbaraNC]

Another argument for betas (good ones...who don't try and change your voice...but are honest) - a very successful, respected author who teaches told me that agents and the publishing world don't necessarily remember you when you send out short stories that don't work, but they DO remember you if you send out a novel that's not ready to be sent out.

That's not an impression any of us probably want to make...

[Dustry Joe]

That's why you agent makes sure it's right for the publisher she sends it to.

[ishtar'sgate]

I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but I think this response comes across as very condescending, and is exactly what the original poster was asking about as far as a negative attitude toward betas. Or to put it bluntly, an attitude that says, I did it myself, obviously, you can't/couldn't.

I hope this doesn't come off as combative, but I am proud of what I have accomplished, even if I do have people read my work before it gets submitted :).



I apologize if I sound condescending. I certainly don't think my method is superior, it simply suits my nature. I'm a do-it-yourself kind of person. I read books and articles about gardening and once I was familiar with a variety of methods, I tailored them to suit my own ideas about how to do things. The results were very satisfying. This spring I'm planting a vineyard, something most people wouldn't even bother with where I live - too cold. I have researched the art of growing grapes for about two years. Now I will take what I've learned, bend it a bit and apply it to what I want to do. I do the same thing when researching a book or article. I familiarize myself with a period or topic and when I'm entirely satisfied, I begin to write. With writing itself, I took courses, read books and absorbed all I could about the craft before I started my novel. It is not in my nature to do anything until I'm confident I know what I'm doing. That's why, once I've done all the prep work, I don't bring in anyone else to help me finish it. If I fall flat on my face, I fall flat on my face. That doesn't bother me. It's simply not in my nature to do things any other way. I work best on my own. Time will tell if my method works for me but I certainly don't expect anyone else to operate the way I do.
No, you don't come off as combative, just passionate about your own method of doing things. And you should be. We all have to do what's right for us. I certainly mean no slight to beta readers. I better not, I've been one! I hope I am supportive of all writers and their methods but supporting a writer doesn't mean I have to operate in the same way they do. Some writers claim they have to get drunk or high to do their best work. That doesn't work for me. Some writers have to have loud music playing while they work. I can't do that. Some people write better in a crowded room, some need isolation. We shouldn't have to defend our methods. The creative process is different for each one of us and not one of us does everything exactly the same as someone else. Nor should we. Our differences are what make us unique. Sorry for my long-winded explanation. I'll shut up now.:)

[jannawrites]

Nicely said, Linnea. Very tactful, too. :)

[BarbaraNC]

That's why you agent makes sure it's right for the publisher she sends it to.

But you've got to get the agent first! :)

[bethany]

I apologize if I sound condescending. I certainly don't think my method is superior, it simply suits my nature. I'm a do-it-yourself kind of person. I read books and articles about gardening and once I was familiar with a variety of methods, I tailored them to suit my own ideas about how to do things. The results were very satisfying. This spring I'm planting a vineyard, something most people wouldn't even bother with where I live - too cold. I have researched the art of growing grapes for about two years. Now I will take what I've learned, bend it a bit and apply it to what I want to do. I do the same thing when researching a book or article. I familiarize myself with a period or topic and when I'm entirely satisfied, I begin to write. With writing itself, I took courses, read books and absorbed all I could about the craft before I started my novel. It is not in my nature to do anything until I'm confident I know what I'm doing. That's why, once I've done all the prep work, I don't bring in anyone else to help me finish it. If I fall flat on my face, I fall flat on my face. That doesn't bother me. It's simply not in my nature to do things any other way. I work best on my own. Time will tell if my method works for me but I certainly don't expect anyone else to operate the way I do.
No, you don't come off as combative, just passionate about your own method of doing things. And you should be. We all have to do what's right for us. I certainly mean no slight to beta readers. I better not, I've been one! I hope I am supportive of all writers and their methods but supporting a writer doesn't mean I have to operate in the same way they do. Some writers claim they have to get drunk or high to do their best work. That doesn't work for me. Some writers have to have loud music playing while they work. I can't do that. Some people write better in a crowded room, some need isolation. We shouldn't have to defend our methods. The creative process is different for each one of us and not one of us does everything exactly the same as someone else. Nor should we. Our differences are what make us unique. Sorry for my long-winded explanation. I'll shut up now.:)

:)

[Keffington]

I... okay. I'm not published yet. In fact, I would say that I am at that early stage in submitting where there's a chance that maybe I'll pop out a diamond of a story on accident and a short story market will want it. In reality, however, I've probably got a good few more years of slogging through submissions criteria and, of course, Learning More Craft.

That said, I don't understand the "they're going to change my work, and then it won't be MINE anymore" fear. I just... don't.

I do agree that voice is easily crushed or influenced in the early stages of writing. I used to notice that after I edited something to make it better, or after I went to critiquers and took their advice, the story didn't have the same feel to it anymore.

That was fine, because frankly, that was a learning experience too. I have learned how to take sentence level constructive criticism and bend it to fit and strengthen my story. Furthermore, all the stories that were hopelessly mangled in the rewriting phases? They weren't good enough to be submitted anyway. Looking back, there was not a way for me to possibly put those stories in a form that I felt comfortable submitting unless I let somebody far better than myself rewrite it for me.

I had to develop my own editing/revising skills so that the critiques I received were at all useful.

This is largely an area where "your mileage may vary." It really depends on how you write, what you're looking for, how you edit, and who you find to read your stuff. I don't think beta readers or critique groups are necessarily for everybody, but I think everybody should try them to see if they help. If betas don't fit your particular style, then don't use them. I don't think it's helpful to avoid any outside critique because you're afraid you won't be able to maintain your own artistic vision. Determining that you work better on your own is a different story.

I would ask potential beta readers to tell me what genre they usually read and which recently published books they enjoyed. This doesn't weed anybody out, mind you, but it's good to know where people are coming from. :)

I'm still not entirely sure if I am communicating properly with my writing. Having my critique group read it helps. There have been many instances where they pointed out confusing passages that I never would have noticed because, hey, I know what's going on!

But you know? The important bit is just to do whatever works for you.