Absolutely terrified :)

[Susan Lanigan]

Hi,

I am attempting to move over from short story writing to ... em... longer story writing (still can't say the N word). I'm realising that to have any serious clout with a publisher I need to have a book-length piece and one of my short stories conveniently ends with a man walking out of his own post-wedding celebrations in search of the a lost love. He's got a random young boy with him.

I want to know where he goes. I don't think his story is finished. And if I don't go for it now, I will never have the guts to go for it.

The main few characters are clear enough in my mind. What is held back and later revealed is also a known quantity. My problem is that I've got no &*(^ing plot to speak of though an idea of where it might go. I've got an outline for chapter 2 (chapter 1 is done). I have no idea whether or not this will work. I have no idea whether I can compel people to give a toss about it.

I've outlined things precisely and given up after page 3 so that might not be the solution. Also I've happily and competently written stories of 23,000 word-length, a length that is utterly unpublishable. If I can do 20,000 - why do I want to run and hide at the thought of 60,000?

I do care about these people and I care about showing how shitty and hypocritical others can be, and I do have a back story I can flashback to. All I need is the guts to believe I can do it and the ability to do it and stick to it. I know I can write. I just don't know if I can write... long things.

Thanks for listening and sorry if this has been covered umph million times before.

[Toothpaste]

You'll be just fine! And the reason I say this is because you are very self aware of who you are as a writer.

However, the one thing I'll say is to genuinely try not to worry. Easier said than done I know. But remember. There is no timeline. There is no right way of doing things. There is no one judging you but yourself. So let it go. Just sit down and write. And give yourself permission to write crap. It is very rare, as I am sure you know, that anyone publishes their first book. But this is a great thing. This means the pressure is off. So get your hands dirty. Jump into the deep end. Mix your metaphors.

You'll be fine.

[Susan Lanigan]

Thanks Toothpaste. I've already written my first book. As is often the way, agent liked the first three chapters, hated the rest.

I want to make sure that doesn't happen this time!

[dempsey]

You've written a 20K word piece. Just do that two more times and you have a novel.

Like Toothpaste said, you'll be fine. Nothin' to do but to do it.

[David I]

Man, I'm the other way around. I can't write a short story to save my life.

Some people find it easier to tackle large projects like novels if they think in terms of "acts"--usually I, II, and III, though I know some folks who like the Shakespearean model of five acts. Try it on for size and see if it helps.

[Zoombie]

The trick is to write a really really really long short story.

[Susan Lanigan]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. The acts thing is striking a chord - I do tend to see "scenes" in my head rather than a narrative.

[TrickyFiction]

I'm with David I. I have written short stories, but they're more difficult for me. Novels are fun, maybe because I naturally obsess. I know! Learn to have a one-track mind! Not so simple, I know.

OK, my real advice. The best short pieces I've ever written, I wrote with the idea that I was practicing something. It takes the pressure off. Oh, I'm just practicing characterization with this piece. Oh, I'm just practicing my world-building. Care, but don't worry. It's fun. Novel writing takes practice, like everything else.

I think that's why kids learn so quickly. They believe it's just for fun. They aren't afraid to fall and get up again, and fall and get up again. No pressure. Let your novel be your shower-singing for now, just for composition time. After that, you can worry about turning it into a real symphony.

[Smiling Ted]

I think that's why kids learn so quickly. They believe it's just for fun. They aren't afraid to fall and get up again, and fall and get up again. No pressure. Let your novel be your shower-singing for now, just for composition time. After that, you can worry about turning it into a real symphony.

That's the word - fun.

You might try brainstorming first, which is always fun. Just sit down with a pen and a pad of paper (no computers for this trick). Write down anything that comes to mind about your story, no matter how trivial, stupid, or off the wall. Any time you slow down, remind yourself that this is all just for fun, that you'll get rid of virtually all of these notes, that it's just practice.

See how many pages you can fill before you genuinely run out of things to write down...including the stupid, loopy stuff. (It's sort of like figuring out when to take the popcorn out of the microwave...if ten minutes go by and nothing comes, you might be finished.)

This exercise helps in two ways (at least, it's always done so for me):
1. You might actually find something useful in what you've written down.
2. Even if you don't, the sheer act of doing it helps put you in a productive frame of mind.

There's also a variation of this called "clustering," where you write down an idea, circle it, and then draw a line to any new ideas that were sparked by the old idea.

Sure, it sounds a little nursery school, but I've found it to be helpful.

[Garpy]

Viewing a book in acts is my modus operandi as well, but in my case 4 acts - as that's how I used to structure screenplays.

Act1 (20-25k words)
Set up your characters, the setting, and end this section with a significant event that gets your characters on the move.

Act2 (20-25k)
Characters continue in motion. You can add some depth to your chars if you like. Set up a challange to be overcome by the protag.

Act3 (20-25k)
Protag fails challenge, all looks doomy and gloomy
set up final, far greater challenge that protag looks doomed to fail.

Act 4 (20-25k)
Play out final challenge concluding with protag either rising above it and succeeding (or failing)

Now that's a really barebones schematic for a 4 act tale, and of course not every tale fits comfortably into that straightjacket - but I do find it helpful to split up a novel in such a away, breaking into 4 manageable chunks, and each chunk can be considered a short story.

[HeronW]

Of course we care, because you care, because NO story ends at the end, or even begins at the beginning.

The man has parents, friends, co-workers, roomates from college, the boy has a family he left, a favorite toy, a dream to be the next baseball Hall of Famer.

There's always something that happened before the incident you write, and there's people involved who want to speak, or react who will get the chance in a novel.

There's random events that will propel the character: being mugged, getting hit by a car, slipping on ice, getting the flu, finding his father's old railroad watch.

Don't worry about 20K or 40K 'short' stories--every tale needs it's own space. You could write it 7 different ways and still have 7 different lenghts perfectly good for that particular plot/character tranformation.

Many 'zines will do serials so a 20K can be cut to 2-3 parts.

Just write, trust yourself and your Muse to let the tale unfold. It already exists, just be open to let it come to you, and it will. If you care, so will the reader.

[a_sharp]

Act1 (20-25k words)
Set up your characters, the setting, and end this section with a significant event that gets your characters on the move.

Act2 (20-25k)
Characters continue in motion. You can add some depth to your chars if you like. Set up a challange to be overcome by the protag.

Act3 (20-25k)
Protag fails challenge, all looks doomy and gloomy
set up final, far greater challenge that protag looks doomed to fail.

Act 4 (20-25k)
Play out final challenge concluding with protag either rising above it and succeeding (or failing)
Thanks, Garpy, that four-act description is one I can really use. For my type of writing, four is better than the usual three, especially the placement of the protag's challenges.

[David I]

Viewing a book in acts is my modus operandi as well, but in my case 4 acts - as that's how I used to structure screenplays.

Interesting. Clearly it works for you, too.

I was first advised to work with five acts by a screenwriter when I was bitching about the endless desert that constitutes the "middle" of a book. He advised dividing the middle up into three acts of its own--so the structure he was recommending was really First + Middle Three + Last.

To tell the truth, I don't work with the concept of "acts" at all, except when trying to explain things post-hoc. But the suggestion that the middle has a shape and structure to it, with its own turning points, was immensely useful to me, just because it got me thinking about the center of the book as something other than a plateau connecting opening and climax...

Four acts. I'll go think about that.

[Susan Lanigan]

Thanks all. 6,000 words altogether and 3,000 or so into Chapter 2. The story is getting moving but I know that really things are just beginning.

Garpy I like your outline very much.

[Susan Lanigan]

8,000 now, beginning of Chapter 4. Various stops along the way to discipline some minor characters who were bickering on the motorway about change for the toll bridge when I wanted them to stick to the story, dammit. It's still the wedding scene and the aftermath. I've got to move it on.

The problem is, any man who goes off with a boy, never mind the reason, is a villain pure and simple and very hard to redeem. And there's a whole pile of characters jostling for development. I feel like I'm on a horse and barely able to hold the reins. Why did he have to take the damn boy with him? (NB "Because otherwise there would be no story" might be true, but not what I want to hear. :)

Don't mind me, just ranting. Thanks for letting me.

[Susan Lanigan]

PS. I'm reading a book about character development by Orson Scott Card. It's bloody good.

[Nateskate]

I want to know where he goes. I don't think his story is finished. And if I don't go for it now, I will never have the guts to go for it.



Hi Susan. As a rule, I find that I always start with a basic story idea with limited characters and plot lines. A story expands greatly every time you add an interesting character to the mix.

Give the kid a past with someone who is looking for him. Maybe he's run away from something. Maybe he's looking for someone. Could be the police think he did something- which could remain a mystery- did he or didn't he?

So if he has a crack addicted mother who dropped him on the doorstep, she became clean and now wants to find him- does he want to be found?

As a rule of thought, "Bigger than life people plus larger than life problems = more interesting story"- aka Secret Life of Bees

[Will Lavender]

Man, I'm the other way around. I can't write a short story to save my life.

I'm the same way. I don't...understand short fiction. Can't get on the same wavelength. Used to read it quite a bit, but I haven't read a short story in years and really have no desire to. It's a strange form, yet I think those who can do it well and consistently are truly artists.

[Susan Lanigan]

It's weird, Will. I think I've got into the mentality of stuffing everything into a 3,000 word space, which means that anything outside the immediate *moment* that strikes the character is not so important. I've got to create an Augenblick as opposed to a film, which the novel would require.

But now I'm finding I'm a lot more relaxed. I'm heading towards 10,000 words and getting a bit more command over things. I have a few subconscious tricks to urge me onwards when I get panicked.

Sorry if these updates are getting tedious but I put them half for my own satisfaction - it makes me feel good to see I'm making reasonable progress.

[Susan Lanigan]

16k now. The moment when you start to write the latest installment is the most frightening. The immediate preceding paragraph looks like the biggest load of crap since they shovelled up after highwaymen on 17th century roads.

I still don't have much faith. Watching a documentary of John Banville did not help. Looking back over my stuff I can safely say John Banville it ain't.

Still, gotta get that story moving. I'm trying to get my 1k a day in and have written past several crises of confidence already (advisedly or not is anyone's guess)

[Susan Lanigan]

22.5K. I think I've got to the end of Act I. However I seriously need an outline so I'm starting one now.

I keep thinking of Raymond Chandler and the man with a gun quote...I'm still holding the man in reserve :)

[chartreuse]

PS. I'm reading a book about character development by Orson Scott Card. It's bloody good.

Is that Character and Viewpoint? I found it to be immensely helpful.

[Susan Lanigan]

I don't know the name: it was included in a trilogy called How to Write a Million. There was a book called "Plot" by Ansen Dibell which was ok, but not as good as the Card section.

[Susan Lanigan]

word count 30K and story was moving well but have just encountered a rather large plot hole :(

I won't have to rewrite that much but I will have to take other things into account when judging the characters' reactions and the planned future storyline will have to change. I will have to cut last night's work.

I presume this happens quite frequently!

[Kallex]

One method is to know the ending then write plenty of pages getting your protagonist there. It is amazing what will unfold during the journey especially if you make it hard for him or her to get to wherever or whatever is the end.

[TheIT]

Backfilling plot holes is very common. At the moment, I'm working on my first revision and pulling out a character. Just keep writing and get to the end.

Also, if nobody else has recommended it, read the "Learn Writing with Uncle Jim" thread. Lots of really good information there.

Good luck!

[Susan Lanigan]

I did have a look and was very impressed. Tho I'd be afraid to write a word if I had all those rules in my head at once. There's something unavoidably organic about the whole process for me. Though I do abide by one rule - to keep it moving.

On the plus side, I've solved my plot hole I think. And it's opened up an interesting possibility that I hadn't thought of - which someone else suggested to me.

[Susan Lanigan]

that's weird - I posted something and it disappeared. Maybe it's god's way of telling me to get back to work :D

Anyway after a hiatus which was spent taking (and passing) an exam that made me a Microsoft Certified Professional .NET developer, as well as undertaking tons more work, I am back at it, clocking in at 35K and starting Part II.

I've promised myself that once I finish this I can pack in writing for a while - that is what is keeping me going :)

[Constantine K]

I liked Plot and Structure by James Scott Bell.

On that note:

Don't worry about plot. Just write the story. (They aren't the same thing.)

When it's over, you'll have a MS thats mostly nonsensical garbage, but that's okay because you'll read through it and find the gems. Then you can write it again and make it something that shines.

Worrying about plot will keep you stalled at the starting line for a while, and also restrict your creativity.

As for me? I like to know how a story ends before I start. That way I have something to work towards, but everything in between in a mystery.

[LC030308]

As I wrote, the plot just developed... I think sometimes things just fall in place, and the story works.

[Susan Lanigan]

Just to update with some good news: I just completed the first draft of my novel. It's hovering in at a rather bloated 105,000 words. I'll have fun cutting it.

Funny how nervous I was about writing maybe 3,000 words of crap. I've a lot more crap now, the only hope is that there are some bits of jewellery behind it. Ditto with plot holes. There's probably enough now to sink a battleship but ...F*ck it.

I'm looking at Garpy's acts again and feeling a bit nervous. I have the requisite no of parts, but I don't know if the protagonist has the nice Aristotelian bell-curve he should have. In fact there's a bit of jostling for the job of protagonist.

Ah hell, it moves, it's the first draft, my job now is to ignore it for two months :)

Thanks everyone for your cheers along the way!

Susan

[Madison]

Hurray! Your last post, Susan, is making me laugh. I just skimmed this thread and at the beginning you were very worried about even making 60, which reminds me of myself. I cry about word count the whole way through every first draft (omgosh its way too long! no, actually it's too short, i won't even make 50k...) But in the end everything works out, and now you have tons of words to work with! Congratulations!

[The Lonely One]

You ain't the only one on the first (you can say it) novel. It is a bit like looking down when they told you not to, isn't it?

I won't be discouraged if you won't.

Some things I'm using to cope with the transition:

- writing chapters/scenes, pretending they're short stories I'm going to send out when I'm done.

- Telling myself I'll beat myself up if I don't write every day. Just a word.

- Telling myself it's okay when I don't write anything that day.

- When I get stuck, going back to scenes/chapters that remind me why I'm writing the story. The inspiring moments of prose (that may or may not disappear later, stay tuned).


- Telling myself this: "Self, the writing part is easy. That's all you do, for Christ's sake. It's like a painter freaking out about when the house will be totally blue and what's with all this unpainted space. Then you have to get rejected a bunch of times (something most house painters don't stay up at night thinking too much about), and even if you sell it to an agent, you have to get rejected a bunch of times. Then even if you get accepted by an editor, they have to show it to a bunch of other editors and you might get rejected by a bunch of people. Then if you get accepted you probably won't make a buck fifty to pay the postage. Then if you make a buck fifty at least half the people who read your book are going to reject you. So self, I'm saying this honestly, worry about that shit. That's some serious stress on one's ego. But about the writing, seriously, shut the fuck up."

- Apologize to myself for using profanity. It hurt my feelings a little bit.


Hope I was of some help. Apologies in advance since I'm afraid I might not have :/.

[The Lonely One]

Just to update with some good news: I just completed the first draft of my novel. It's hovering in at a rather bloated 105,000 words. I'll have fun cutting it.

Funny how nervous I was about writing maybe 3,000 words of crap. I've a lot more crap now, the only hope is that there are some bits of jewellery behind it. Ditto with plot holes. There's probably enough now to sink a battleship but ...F*ck it.

I'm looking at Garpy's acts again and feeling a bit nervous. I have the requisite no of parts, but I don't know if the protagonist has the nice Aristotelian bell-curve he should have. In fact there's a bit of jostling for the job of protagonist.

Ah hell, it moves, it's the first draft, my job now is to ignore it for two months :)

Thanks everyone for your cheers along the way!

Susan


Okay, this is why I should read things. I have this really bad habit of being stupid. How old is this post? I responded to a question you asked when you had close to no words and now you have 105k?

I'm an idiot.

My crappy advice still stands for anyone who cares to read it.

P.S. congrats.

[Susan Lanigan]

Right. Went through First Draft with a Black Biro and it was slash and burrrrrrn time!

Now I'm taking all the slashed stuff out. I think I've found my narrator so I'll be making some big changes other than that as well.

Second draft is trickier which is why I've put it off so long, but I'm stuck into it now.

[SarahMacManus]

Hi,

I am attempting to move over from short story writing to ... em... longer story writing (still can't say the N word). I'm realising that to have any serious clout with a publisher I need to have a book-length piece and one of my short stories conveniently ends with a man walking out of his own post-wedding celebrations in search of the a lost love. He's got a random young boy with him.

I want to know where he goes. I don't think his story is finished. And if I don't go for it now, I will never have the guts to go for it.

The main few characters are clear enough in my mind. What is held back and later revealed is also a known quantity. My problem is that I've got no &*(^ing plot to speak of though an idea of where it might go. I've got an outline for chapter 2 (chapter 1 is done). I have no idea whether or not this will work. I have no idea whether I can compel people to give a toss about it.

I've outlined things precisely and given up after page 3 so that might not be the solution. Also I've happily and competently written stories of 23,000 word-length, a length that is utterly unpublishable. If I can do 20,000 - why do I want to run and hide at the thought of 60,000?

I do care about these people and I care about showing how shitty and hypocritical others can be, and I do have a back story I can flashback to. All I need is the guts to believe I can do it and the ability to do it and stick to it. I know I can write. I just don't know if I can write... long things.

Thanks for listening and sorry if this has been covered umph million times before.


Oh, man - do I hear your pain! I was a short story girl for years - decades. I find it's a bit like milking a rock, to go over 15,000K. I feel happy and proud to hit 30,000. I think I ONCE got up to 72K and then depressed because I knew I'd have to cut about a third of it as useless backstory.

Maybe if you can convince yourself to write a series of short stories, in a series, you can then mesh them together to get a novel.

I still choke at word length. I really do. I had a complete YA worked out and never got it over 48K.

What ever happened to the novella, anyway, dammit?!

[ccv707]

Perhaps in the end you're writing a novella...not every writer and every story is fit for a novel-length treatment, and vice-versa with short stories. Write it as long as the story needs to be, and in the end, that's what it is.

Good luck with it. Sounds interesting.

[Snowstorm]

Good for you for going for it, Susan_Lanigan! There's nothing more sadder than asking yourself years down the road: "I wonder what had happened if I had only ...". Good luck.

[gonovelgo]

I'm also the other way around - I couldn't write a (good) short story if my life depended on it. But it doesn't sound as if you'll have that problem with a novel. As others have said, being able to write a 20k word piece is definitely a good sign!

[Susan Lanigan]

Update: just starting the second draft. Have a half-decent outline which I can follow. It's been a long journey, but I'm determined to see this through. I'm pleased that I made it this far as I've had "follow-through" issues in the past.

Pleased with myself :)

[TheIT]

Good luck on Draft 2!

:e2cheer:

[Acoustic]

I want to make the jump to longer writing too...
I'm scared that I'll honestly have a good idea and I'll get burnt out on it because I'm lazy and impatient and afraid to ruin something that once meant a lot to me.

I like Garpy's act mindset.

[Birol]

Susan, just wanted to say it sounds like you're doing fine. Keep up the good work.


Acoustic, how will you know if you don't ever try?

[SarahMacManus]

Hi,

I am attempting to move over from short story writing to ... em... longer story writing (still can't say the N word). I'm realising that to have any serious clout with a publisher I need to have a book-length piece and one of my short stories conveniently ends with a man walking out of his own post-wedding celebrations in search of the a lost love. He's got a random young boy with him.



What I have found is that novels require more conflict and more obstacles, which lengthens the plot line. Especially the obstacles. Novels will generally have points where the protags mission is hopeless, and there is generally a final last stand. There will be more factors against the protag, some of which are not within their control. There will be two or three subplots that center on the story question, one of which may not even involve the protagonist. There's room for back story and room for more exposition for character development.

I hate to recommend it, but look at the Marshall Plan for helping you to plan out a fully-fleshed plot. I hate the damn thing, but I did use it to do a few exercise plots which I think greatly improved my ability to create a novel-length storyline.

[Charlie Horse]

Here's a suggestion:

Give yourself little rewards every time you pass a certain goal. For me, simply changing that number in my sig line gives me a small amount of satisfaction. Also, try to come up with something every day you can post in the 'favorite lines you've written' thread.

Or if you like, buy yourself some chocolate or something every time you add another 10k words.

[sleepsheep]

The trick is to write a really really really long short story.

Not true. It's not just about length. What works in a short story in terms of plot, action, and character development is not likely to work in a novel. Of course, you should go for the novel, but I don't think it'll help to think of it as a short story times three.

[sleepsheep]

For me, simply changing that number in my sig line gives me a small amount of satisfaction.

Oh my gosh, I am so glad somebody else feels that way. Since I started tracking my word count in my sig, I feel extra motivated to add on another thousand at the end of the day. I think we should start a weight-watchers type of thing for novelists.

[Susan Lanigan]

Working on a partial, second draft about 27K in. Really really really finding it hard to feel the love right now :(

[James81]

Also I've happily and competently written stories of 23,000 word-length, a length that is utterly unpublishable.

Not in the age of the intraweb. A 23,000 word, unpublishable novella sounds like a great idea for an e-book to promote yourself and get yourself known a bit. :D

[Namatu]

Working on a partial, second draft about 27K in. Really really really finding it hard to feel the love right now :(Have you taken a break lately? If the second draft is really a slog for you, maybe allow for a little distraction with a fun story. I try hard to only work on one thing at a time, but sometimes that one thing is really not working. Rather than stay frustrated, I distract myself with another thing. But every day I ask myself, "this thing or that other thing?" and I always consider "this thing" first.