Profanity

[young_zee]

My novel is around 80,000 words and 1% of it all is swearing, and the more rude words at that. I was wondering how acceptable this is, given that this book is not erotica!!

What would a middle/upper class literary agent/publisher make of it!

[bethany]

What genre is it? How does it compare to other writers in your genre?

I seriously doubt that it's a problem, profanity is pretty well mainstream these days.

[maddythemad]

Unless it's a picture book, you're probably cool. :D

[Moon Daughter]

800 curse words? I think the acceptability would be based on the genre of the book and if the curse words really do anything for the story.

[James D. Macdonald]

The profane words have to meet the same tests as all the rest of the words: Do they reveal character, support the theme, or advance the plot?

If yes, keep them.

If no, cut them.

[andrewhollinger]

Click on the link in my signature and then go to "The Original Grammar-Man." There is a video there about your question.

[blacbird]

As with any aspect of writing, if it is appropriate to the story. Other than that, there are no "rules".

caw

[kuwisdelu]

It doesn't matter if your language is appropriate for all ages, appropriate for middle-upper class, or appropriate for baboons. It only matters if it's appropriate to your story. If it is--keep em. If not--toss em. Just like Uncle Jim says.

[scarletpeaches]

800 curse words? I think the acceptability would be based on the genre of the book and if the curse words really do anything for the story.

Try reading How Late It Was, How Late (http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Late-Was-Novel/dp/039332799X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199190154&sr=1-3).

Oh, and did I mention - it won the Booker?

[L M Ashton]

The one thing no one else has mentioned is that profanity may lose you readers. Depends on who your target audience is, but you could alienate portions of your potential audience.

[scarletpeaches]

So? Does any writer want readers who are so precious anyway?

Like I said before; it didn't do James Kelman any harm.

[L M Ashton]

So? Does any writer want readers who are so precious anyway?

Precious? Because some people don't like profanity? It's a preference, and it's not necessary to condemn readers just because they don't like reading profanity. Not everyone likes reading potty humour or sex scenes either. Or science fiction or historical fiction or westerns. So what?

[scarletpeaches]

You could lose readers because of your genre, your voice, your characters, the author's gender/politics/age...who cares? You can't write a book worrying about not alienating people for any reason, let alone profanity, or you'd never get the book written.

You're never going to entertain everyone with the same book, so it's a waste of energy trying. It's better to write a book you would enjoy reading and to be true to the story, not pandering to the preferences of a group of people you don't even know.

I know the swearing in my books would offend people...but I also know there are other people who won't be offended, and so will read what I produce. And it's those people I care about, not the ones who choose not to read me. Life's too short to worry about people who don't like what you write. I'd rather concern myself with those who do.

[johnzakour]

As long as you're not using profanity for the sake of using profanity and you're not writing kids or YA you should be fine.

Like stated above, it's not the words that matter but how you use them. The words need to match the characters.

Think of Barney talking like Tony Montana (Al Pacino's character in Scar Face), it just wouldn't work out. Just like Tony Montana talking like Barney wouldn't work out.

[scarletpeaches]

I write YA and I still use profanity. Plenty of YA books do.

[Esopha]

I write YA and I still use profanity. Plenty of YA books do.

I would like to second this. I've seen MG books with profanity.

[johnzakour]

Sorry, I didn't mean for the YA to be a sweeping generality. So I stand corrected. Though I would still venture a guess that the majority isn't 1% profanity. Anybody know any young readers that are using profanity?

The point still stands that the words have to match the characters.

[Esopha]

Sorry, I didn't mean for the YA to be a sweeping generality. So I stand corrected. Though I would still venture a guess that the majority isn't 1% profanity. Anybody know any young readers that are using profanity?

The point still stands that the words have to match the characters.

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but if you mean, "Does anybody know young people who swear", my answer would be, "Yes. Everybody I know over the age of ten."

How often they use it is a different story.

And words absolutely have to match the characters.

[Moon Daughter]

I write YA and I still use profanity. Plenty of YA books do.

I second this. But as someone mentioned before, YA books that I've read anyways, don't have 800 curse words. There's nothing wrong with having one or a thousand of them...just as long as it works for the story and not for the sake of just having them. If every page had a curse word, personally, I'd be thrown off by it.

[johnzakour]

I'm not sure if I understand your question, but if you mean, "Does anybody know young people who swear", my answer would be, "Yes. Everybody I know over the age of ten."


Sorry that was BADLY worded on my part. By young readers I meant stories for first time readers! That was meant to be a joke but I left off the ;-) and like I said, worded it very badly. (I should never type day after New Year's eve...)

[johnzakour]

I second this. But as someone mentioned before, YA books that I've read anyways, don't have 800 curse words. There's nothing wrong with having one or a thousand of them...just as long as it works for the story and not for the sake of just having them. If every page had a curse word, personally, I'd be thrown off by it.

Yes, a YA with 800 curse words would be a really tough sell. Not saying it couldn't be done. But it would take a writer with far more talent than I have.

I have one, "Oh Shit..." coming in one of my YA's due out in 09, and the editor really questioned if I needed it. So a lot depends on your "voice" too.

[Esopha]

Sorry that was BADLY worded on my part. By young readers I meant stories for first time readers! That was meant to be a joke but I left off the ;-) and like I said, worded it very badly. (I should never type day after New Year's eve...)

Oooooh. It was a joke! Hahaha. :D

It's cool. New Year's day at my place means old guacamole and de-bubblifying champagne from my parent's once-a-year obligatory drink. Also, a mouth that tastes like squirrel.

[The_Grand_Duchess]

Unless it's a picture book, you're probably cool. :D

That would be the best picture book ever!

[NeuroFizz]

I suspect this statement may be controversial, or at least muddied, but it seems to me (based on everything from novels to prime-time television) that cursing and profanity are two separate and diverging concepts.

[Danger Jane]

Fat Kid Rules the World definitely has 800 curse words.

Okay, maybe not 800, but a lot.

[ClaudiaGray]

YA uses plenty of profanity at times, but in YA, you'll do best to keep it at the absolute minimum necessary for your story. If you really NEED the profanity (say, you're telling a story about gang violence), you can have a lot of really harsh language and it will be fine. But if, like me, you're writing a supernatural-themed love story, your editor would probably (like mine), ask that language be pruned way down. (And I didn't use much bad language in the original draft!)

Uncle Jim's advice is spot on. Profanity can be honesty, or it can be posturing; it can be unnecessary, or it can be absolutely necessary. Weigh your words.

[Danger Jane]

YA uses plenty of profanity at times, but in YA, you'll do best to keep it at the absolute minimum necessary for your story. If you really NEED the profanity (say, you're telling a story about gang violence), you can have a lot of really harsh language and it will be fine. But if, like me, you're writing a supernatural-themed love story, your editor would probably (like mine), ask that language be pruned way down. (And I didn't use much bad language in the original draft!)


Isn't this true of all genres and categories?

[Devil Ledbetter]

Isn't this true of all genres and categories?I think so.

IMO, swear words seems to have a little more power in print than they do verbally. But when overused, they quickly lose that power. So if you have a character dropping F-bombs about every little thing, you'll have to work that much harder to convey his outrage in dialogue when something really f'd up happens.

[loquax]

800 swear words is better than 800 adverbs

[johnzakour]

YA uses plenty of profanity at times, but in YA, you'll do best to keep it at the absolute minimum necessary for your story. If you really NEED the profanity (say, you're telling a story about gang violence), you can have a lot of really harsh language and it will be fine. But if, like me, you're writing a supernatural-themed love story, your editor would probably (like mine), ask that language be pruned way down. (And I didn't use much bad language in the original draft!)


Yeah, that's what happened to me. After 40K words of not using any I used one and the editor asked me to prune it too as it seemed out of character. (Though it was meant for comic relief.)

The point is the words have to match the character and the material.

[IceCreamEmpress]

I suspect this statement may be controversial, or at least muddied, but it seems to me (based on everything from novels to prime-time television) that cursing and profanity are two separate and diverging concepts.

?

I'm confused. Did you mean to differentiate verbal vulgarity or obscenity (references to copulation and excretion) from verbal profanity (references to religious and theological concepts)?

Or did you mean to differentiate verbal profanity from thematic profanity?

Certainly one could have a character whose every sentence contained a reference to fornicating feces without the slightest bit of profanity ever being mentioned.

Similarly, one could have a very profane theme (a revered religious figure depicted as a mass of depravity) without either verbal vulgarity or profanity coming into the picture at all.

Also, Trainspotting.

[NeuroFizz]

Using curse words is just a very small part of profanity, which includes things like irreverance, blasphemy, curse-giving, double entendre, bawdiness, vulgarism, and the list goes on*. Furthermore, many swear words have been "mainstreamed" to where not they only have they lost their original meaning, they have also been pretty-much accepted as forceful exclamations without specific meaning. "Shit" has become such an exclamation that has nothing to do with defecation most times the word is used. Same with f**k and copulation. This phenomenon obviously varies with subcultures in our society (and in other societies). If these words are mainstreamed in this way, however, they become part of normal spoken language. While they may be considered profane in some corners of our society, they may be anything but profane in others. I think this is tied to what Uncle Jim said about cursing. If the readers are offended by reality (or at least realistic dialogue), then, oh well...

*all of these exist without inclusion of curse words.

[scarletpeaches]

Only last week, I heard someone at a religious gathering use the word 'bollocking' when referring to a workmate getting a telling off. It shocked me. Not because of the word itself, but because of who said it and where she was at the time.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Using curse words is just a very small part of profanity, which includes things like irreverance, blasphemy, curse-giving, double entendre, bawdiness, vulgarism, and the list goes on

Doubles-entendres are by their very definition not profanities. They are a form of wit, in which very proper speech is understood to have a reference to less proper concepts.

The thing is that "profanity" has a variety of meanings. These range from the narrowest definition ("angry or abusive language with a reference to sacred concepts") to the broadest one ("language and ideas meant to shock the proprieties").

And it's all contextual. I could go into a Daughters of the American Revolution tea party, spill some hot Earl Grey on my hand, and say "Tabernac!" and nobody would think I was being profane--but if I were in a tough bar in Montreal and I said the same thing, I would probably get disapproving looks from longshoremen.

Mark Twain has a wonderful thing about respectable German ladies who said "Verdammte" when their American or English counterparts in the 19th-century would never dream of using the same word in translation.

In any case, the key to the original question is: Does the choice of words fit the character and situation? Tony Soprano would look ridiculous saying "Darn it all to heck," whereas Sherlock Holmes advising Professor Moriarty to perform anatomically impossible acts in words of one syllable would be perhaps even more ridiculous.

[ORION]

I have one character in my book with a potty mouth. He was a Vietnam vet so I couldn't really have him say, "Oh, darn!"
It did turn off a few readers but I felt as others have said- if it's not gratuitous and it's integral to the story then you have to maintain your vision. Interestingly it was never an issue with my agent or publisher.

[NicoleMD]

Swears don't bother me in themselves, but some authors do seem to sprinkle them randomly like there's some cuss per page quota or something. The more you use them, the less effect they have as a collective until they just become more annoying than offensive -- just like any over-used word. If every character has the same potty mouth, it seems unrealistic to me. But if you have a couple of characters with really entertaining potty mouths, it can really add to the story.

Nicole

[young_zee]

Try reading How Late It Was, How Late (http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Late-Was-Novel/dp/039332799X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199190154&sr=1-3).

Oh, and did I mention - it won the Booker?

Yes, yes - mine is working class dialect, sort of. And the 'deceptive simplicity' of Kelman's book applies to mine also, well, that's how I would have described it in a way. Intentionally simple, intentionally mundane, but hoping to describe some beauty there, all the more meaningful for being realistic. hmm...of course it has to remain, I just wonder what a publisher would make of a stream of F words, that's all, which seemingly appear unnecessary at times, but that's how it actually is.

[IceCreamEmpress]

I just wonder what a publisher would make of a stream of F words, that's all, which seemingly appear unnecessary at times, but that's how it actually is.

Again, Trainspotting, as well as How Late It Was, How Late and many others.

To be honest, I think one would have a harder time selling a manuscript that depicted economically and socially underprivileged characters who didn't constantly use "bad language". I think a lot of economically and socially privileged people exoticize the "raw language" of people less fortunate than they.

[David I]

I suspect this statement may be controversial, or at least muddied, but it seems to me (based on everything from novels to prime-time television) that cursing and profanity are two separate and diverging concepts.

Profanity is wearing your shoes into a Buddhist temple.

Cursing is afflicting your enemy with sore boils.

Like that, you mean?

[Moon Daughter]

Try reading How Late It Was, How Late (http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Late-Was-Novel/dp/039332799X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199190154&sr=1-3).

Oh, and did I mention - it won the Booker?

Ha, try reading The Signifying Monkey.

[ClaudiaGray]

Isn't this true of all genres and categories?

True, but more true of YA than, for instance, hardboiled crime fiction, where you'd probably get more leeway.

[bethany]

True, but more true of YA than, for instance, hardboiled crime fiction, where you'd probably get more leeway.

Nick and Norah's Infinite Playlist had more cursing than most adult books I've read. I'm curious how they're going to get a PG-13 or less on the movie without toning down the language.

[Danger Jane]

True, but more true of YA than, for instance, hardboiled crime fiction, where you'd probably get more leeway.

I think the same rules apply. There is fluffy chicklit YA just like there's fluffy chicklit adult fiction, where you probably don't want to be running your mouth.

But there are genres of YA (which is not a genre, but an audience) where swearing is perfectly acceptable.

Teenagers swear. Maybe more than adults do, because of the novelty of it and the rebellion of it, however cheesy that might sound. I know a handful of teenagers who would put a book down if it said "shit". I know several handfuls of teenagers who would not so much as bat an eyelash.

[young_zee]

To be honest, I think one would have a harder time selling a manuscript that depicted economically and socially underprivileged characters who didn't constantly use "bad language". I think a lot of economically and socially privileged people exoticize the "raw language" of people less fortunate than they.

Exactly, on both points.

The book wouldn't be real without it; I'm not at all saying the book is simply f*** f*** f*** f***, but the f*** words, and all grammatical variants thereof, make it in a way. Sometimes there might be no swearing in a page, other times up to twenty times - it depends.

[johnzakour]

Actually, one of the most profane pieces I've ever read is the transcripts of the Watergate files. I remember being a teen at the time and thinking, "wow so this is how the most powerful men in the country speak." I figured that gave me carte blanche to swear back then. If any adult called me out on it I could always say, "well president nixon talks that way!"

[ishtar'sgate]

Click on the link in my signature and then go to "The Original Grammar-Man." There is a video there about your question.
Had a look at your website. Love that field, especially the trees. What a great place to write - or paint. We used to have an Arab gelding named 'Rowdy'. He was a bit bigger than your Rowdy.:)
Linnea

[ClaudiaGray]

I think the same rules apply. There is fluffy chicklit YA just like there's fluffy chicklit adult fiction, where you probably don't want to be running your mouth.

But there are genres of YA (which is not a genre, but an audience) where swearing is perfectly acceptable.

Teenagers swear. Maybe more than adults do, because of the novelty of it and the rebellion of it, however cheesy that might sound. I know a handful of teenagers who would put a book down if it said "shit". I know several handfuls of teenagers who would not so much as bat an eyelash.

Yes, if the story/genre demands earthy language, any good YA editor will back you up on it. But my point is that editors are probably going to be more strict in determining how much of that language is genuinely necessary in YA than they would be in most adult fiction genres. (Not all, of course.) It was certainly true in my own experience -- I used precious little bad language in Evernight's original draft, and my editor still had me pare it down.

FWIW, that restriction has almost nothing to do with what the teenage reader might think of it. It has everything to do with the parents and librarians who are major purchasers of YA fiction, and who generally like to think teenagers don't swear as much as they do.

[Prawn]

Let me say that if you are using profanity in your narrative, you have f**ked up. If you are using it in dialogue, it may be okay, but you may have too much. How much of your book is dialogue? If it is half dialogue, then you have 2% profanity in your dialogue, and you might need to cut some.

It also matters which words you use. I myself tend to use the word Sh*t much more often than F*uck, which might only appear once or twice in a 90K word thriller. THere is probably quite a bit more f*ucking that use of the actual word f*uck.

[bethany]

What's the matter with profanity in the narrative?

[Prawn]

What's the matter with profanity in the narrative?

I was trying to compare profanity in a third person narrative vs. profanity in the dialogue. I think it belongs more in dialogue if it helps your characterization.

He went into the fucking house and kicked the shit out of the guy. He felt alive, electric.

vs.

"I went into that fucking house and kicked the shit out of that guy! It felt great!"

Maybe if you have a foul mouthed first person narrator it could work.

[bethany]

I was trying to compare profanity in a third person narrative vs. profanity in the dialogue. I think it belongs more in dialogue if it helps your characterization.

He went into the fucking house and kicked the shit out of the guy. He felt alive, electric.


vs.


"I went into that fucking house and kicked the shit out of that guy! It felt great!"
Maybe if you have a foul mouthed first person narrator it could work.
I do. Have foul mouthed first person narrators. Though really on a more casual basis. They're usually 16-18 years old.

[MDSchafer]

I read over this thread and I came across an interesting fact today that might be useful. In Aliens the word fuck is said 5 times. In Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back the word fuck is used 228 times. Both are rated R for different reasons.

I don't think profanity makes a huge difference, its how and when you use it.