Is 68.5K too short?

[She_wulf]

I'm happy and sad today. I've "finished" my current WIP and the word count is 68.5K.

My target was over 70K.

Is it too short?

BTW the genre is sci-fi.

Amy

[Just Jack]

As long as your comfortable with it, then the length should be ok. Im sure there are tons of publisher out there with that size of novel in mind. Just make sure you didnt leave anything important out.

[Gray Rose]

She_wulf: I am not sure about this, but I heard that for SF/F the requirements are between 80-120K. This would indicate that your novel is "too short", though certainly short SF novels had been published!

Three possibilities:
1. If you write sparse drafts, you might expand it in a rewrite to bring the wordcount up.
2. You might consider adding a subplot
3. After the MS is polished, query as-is and see what happens.

Congrats on finishing the draft and good luck!

[HourglassMemory]

The story will be as long as it needs to be.

[Akuma]

The story will be as long as it needs to be.

Leave the monster in the basement, dear, it'll go away on its own.

[She_wulf]

She_wulf: I am not sure about this, but I heard that for SF/F the requirements are between 80-120K. This would indicate that your novel is "too short", though certainly short SF novels had been published!

Three possibilities:
1. If you write sparse drafts, you might expand it in a rewrite to bring the wordcount up.
2. You might consider adding a subplot
3. After the MS is polished, query as-is and see what happens.

Congrats on finishing the draft and good luck!

Huh. I thought sci-fi was shorter than fantasy (120K word counts)
Bugger! and Drat!

I do write sparsely, but really don't see any action missing. To add just for the sake of adding just seems wrong.

Also, I wrote myself into a pickle by going first person the whole way. Sort of shoots a sub-plot in the foot because it would have to be in a different voice. The lead isn't a "feely" type person either so there are only rare glimpses into emotions. No long expositions about what things are like in his head to expand upon. (I hate those anyway.)

Ack!

[Gray Rose]

Huh. I thought sci-fi was shorter than fantasy (120K word counts)
Bugger! and Drat!

I do write sparsely, but really don't see any action missing. To add just for the sake of adding just seems wrong.

Also, I wrote myself into a pickle by going first person the whole way. Sort of shoots a sub-plot in the foot because it would have to be in a different voice. The lead isn't a "feely" type person either so there are only rare glimpses into emotions. No long expositions about what things are like in his head to expand upon. (I hate those anyway.)

Ack!

After reading this I am not sure you really have a problem. Why won't you give it to a couple of betas and see what they say about it?
best of luck,
Rose

[She_wulf]

As long as your comfortable with it, then the length should be ok. Im sure there are tons of publisher out there with that size of novel in mind. Just make sure you didnt leave anything important out.
Thanks, I am comfortable with it. In fact, there were a ton of "nothing" scenes that I toyed with and left out because they lacked movement or involvement with the plot. (sort of like waking up, brushing teeth scenes, although there were NONE of those...)

The worst (not worst) part is now the characters have resolved that story there are more brewing in the distance...I've actually built a world. Yikes.

But then again...maybe some of these future conflicts would be helpful to create more content here. So, how much is too much. I mean if it won't be resolved here in this work, shouldn't it be left out and not expanded?

[David I]

Though I believe that a book should be excatly as it needs to be, DAW, the SF publisher, doesn't consider books shorter than 80K.

I'm not saying that's good. I'm just reporting a fact.

[ORION]

Lots of times my first drafts are shorter because I tend to write narrative first and then expand it into scenes. Also you CAN have subplots 1st person- it just has to involve them...So have a few beta readers have a crack at it and see if they are satisfied.

[dmytryp]

I'm happy and sad today. I've "finished" my current WIP and the word count is 68.5K.

My target was over 70K.

Is it too short?

BTW the genre is sci-fi.

Amy

Is this a Word count or 250 w/p count?

[Garpy]

I predict you'll have problems with it being too short. Whilst 'a story should be only as long as it needs to be' the brutal truth is that publishers are in the business of selling product, and market forces tell them that scifi fans prefer a chunky read over a slender read. They're pretty good at disguising slender books with font size and spacing, but they can only do so much....hence most will specify a minimum word count.

So, not the end of the world - just shove one or two more hurdles, a betrayal, a moment of weakness, a good ol' chase-n-fight...in the way, and you'll find you've added 20-30k.

[Elaine Margarett]

Amy,

How are you figuring your word count, by page or actual computer word count? Also what font are you writing in? New Times or Courier? It can make a big difference!

Have you posted this question in the SCI-FI section? 272 pages doesn't seem that short, especially if there is an opportunity to make this into a series.

I don't think you should fill in with needless fluff but there might be ways to bump up your word count. You said there were areas of conflict that would lend itself to additional stories. Those might be the areas where you could add additonal pages.

EM

[Straka]

In therms of work count my shortest ever was 107,000 and my longest 313,000. To me sci-fi is always has to do a little extra work in terms of world building.

If you want to up the word count you could go back in and see if you could be more descriptive in some areas. Or maybe you are "showing" and not "telling." In another thread someone used the example: "Susie was angry." As opposed to: "Susie stomped about and kicked over..."

[She_wulf]

Is this a Word count or 250 w/p count?
Word count. Does the 250 w/p differ, if so, how much?

[dmytryp]

Word count. Does the 250 w/p differ, if so, how much?

By a lot.
My ms is about 380 pages. By 250 w/p it is 95k. Using Word count it is only 80k.

[She_wulf]

By a lot.
My ms is about 380 pages. By 250 w/p it is 95k. Using Word count it is only 80k.
Word page count is 318 using Courier 12 pt. That's roughly 79K that way...Is there a formula to convert?

[She_wulf]

Amy,

How are you figuring your word count, by page or actual computer word count? Also what font are you writing in? New Times or Courier? It can make a big difference!

Have you posted this question in the SCI-FI section? 272 (actually, 318pp) pages doesn't seem that short, especially if there is an opportunity to make this into a series.

I don't think you should fill in with needless fluff but there might be ways to bump up your word count. You said there were areas of conflict that would lend itself to additional stories. Those might be the areas where you could add additonal pages.

EM
I may have posted something about this on the Sci-Fi board a while back when I was struggling with ending the book at about 59K. The original ending was much more concise than the current one, but also "lamer". I'm glad I reworked it to bring out more conflict, help tie up a loose cannon, I mean thread, and put in a twist or two.

Sometimes these things just need to stew for a bit.

[dmytryp]

Word page count is 318 using Courier 12 pt. That's roughly 79K that way...Is there a formula to convert?

Nope. Since it depends on amount of dl you have and the form of your paragraphs etc.
There are two ways to do the count:
1. MS Word count (but it is a bit decieving since editors usually look for an estimate of space on actual pages then for a wordcount per se. I beta read a novel that is longer in MS Word count, but shorter in the 250 w/p count)
2. 250 w/p count. Some say it should be 200 w/p for Courier 12p. though I personally am a bit unsure about this since it actually gives a shorter word count than MS Word and this would be illogical

[dmytryp]

By the way, despite what many people say about how the story should be as long as takes to tell it etc etc, and how writing tramps all, I feel it is a bit unrealistic. Just the other day I read an agents blog about this. You just can't ignore the fact that some agents and publishers won't even look at the ms by a first time writer if it exeeds the target wordcount stated in the guidelines (and that means higher and lower). So I'd suggest researching specific guidelines.

[She_wulf]

Nope. Since it depends on amount of dl you have and the form of your paragraphs etc.
There are two ways to do the count:
1. MS Word count (but it is a bit decieving since editors usually look for an estimate of space on actual pages then for a wordcount per se. I beta read a novel that is longer in MS Word count, but shorter in the 250 w/p count)
2. 250 w/p count. Some say it should be 200 w/p for Courier 12p. though I personally am a bit unsure about this since it actually gives a shorter word count than MS Word and this would be illogical

dl?

do you mean margin?

[She_wulf]

(snipped)
2. You might consider adding a subplot


(snipped) Also you CAN have subplots 1st person- it just has to involve them...

(snipped)
So, not the end of the world - just shove one or two more hurdles, a betrayal, a moment of weakness, a good ol' chase-n-fight...in the way, and you'll find you've added 20-30k.

(snipped) You said there were areas of conflict that would lend itself to additional stories. Those might be the areas where you could add additonal pages.

EM

Gosh, You'd think after hearing it four times ...but Epiphany moment. There's a part of the background story that just sort of lies there but doesn't get started, and a part of the actual story that just doesn't seem to have the right pacing...kill two birds with one stone, involve the lead in the background conflict as he's trying to accomplish his goal!

Hello.

and THANK YOU ALL!

[dmytryp]

dl?

do you mean margin?

Sorry -- dialogue

[Gray Rose]

Gosh, You'd think after hearing it four times ...but Epiphany moment. There's a part of the background story that just sort of lies there but doesn't get started, and a part of the actual story that just doesn't seem to have the right pacing...kill two birds with one stone, involve the lead in the background conflict as he's trying to accomplish his goal!

Hello.

and THANK YOU ALL!

Yay! Very happy I could be if help - and best of luck!

[She_wulf]

Sorry -- dialogue
Ah.

Short lines=lower word count, but more pages. I get it.

[FennelGiraffe]

2. 250 w/p count. Some say it should be 200 w/p for Courier 12p. though I personally am a bit unsure about this since it actually gives a shorter word count than MS Word and this would be illogical

With Courier 12 and 1" margins, there are 60 characters per line. A nominal "word" is five characters plus one space, so there are ten "words" per line. At 25 lines per page, that makes 250 "words" per page.

(Scare quotes to emphasize that the words this method is counting have no resemblance to actual words.)

[Moon Daughter]

Isn't I Am Legend a little shorter than the standard for a sci-fi book?

[Tasmin21]

The 250 words/page method seems so...sneaky. I know what its purpose is (to determine page count), but I still feel all slimy when I tell someone my book is 73,500 words long, when I know darn good and well it's only 60,700 words long right now. How do you get over word count guilt?

[IceCreamEmpress]

Isn't I Am Legend a little shorter than the standard for a sci-fi book?

The standard length for paperback originals in 1954, when I Am Legend was written and published, was a lot shorter than it is today.

[chiun]

Many of the books called classics would not be published today. In order to justify inflated cover prices authors are required to describe the volume of bellybutton lint their protagonist plucks out before breakfast, which is also described at length. Can anyone else see the exact spot where the author was forced to go back in and add superfluous rigamarole to fatten the novel? I can usually spot it without trying.

So, the old statement 'a book is as long as it needs to tell the story' is no longer valid.

[astonwest]

The 250 words/page method seems so...sneaky. I know what its purpose is (to determine page count), but I still feel all slimy when I tell someone my book is 73,500 words long, when I know darn good and well it's only 60,700 words long right now. How do you get over word count guilt?Even worse, when the publisher tells you how to determine word count (from the DAW Books website):

HOW TO GET THE WORD COUNT OF A MANUSCRIPT

Count the words in 10 lines and divide the total number of words by 10.
Count the lines on an average page.
Multiply the total number of lines for the sample full page by the approximate word count for one line. This gives you the word count for one page.
Then multiply this total count for the words on one page by the total number of pages in your manuscript. This is the total length of your manuscript in words. Please put this number on page one of your manuscript, right under your name address.
To check the accuracy of your count, please repeat this process twice.
Please send manuscripts to Peter Stampfel, Submission Editor.
Free DAW Books catalog available upon request.Using the above, I get a count near 80K words (as I also would with the 250 words per page method), while the Word auto-count comes up with around 56K. The former would be well within the generally accepted word count of most publishers and agents, while the latter gets doors slammed in my face.

[She_wulf]

Even worse, when the publisher tells you how to determine word count (from the DAW Books website):

HOW TO GET THE WORD COUNT OF A MANUSCRIPT
Count the words in 10 lines and divide the total number of words by 10.
Count the lines on an average page.
Multiply the total number of lines for the sample full page by the approximate word count for one line. This gives you the word count for one page.
Then multiply this total count for the words on one page by the total number of pages in your manuscript. This is the total length of your manuscript in words. Please put this number on page one of your manuscript, right under your name address.
To check the accuracy of your count, please repeat this process twice.
Please send manuscripts to Peter Stampfel, Submission Editor.
Free DAW Books catalog available upon request.Using the above, I get a count near 80K words (as I also would with the 250 words per page method), while the Word auto-count comes up with around 56K. The former would be well within the generally accepted word count of most publishers and agents, while the latter gets doors slammed in my face.
Using this calculation, and...following the advice of multiple posters on this thread (thank you again...) and adding 1400 words today, my total is now

(drum-roll please?)


75,670 words...

The beauty of it is, now that I pumped up the sub plot action and tied it into the story line (BTW, it fit better than the prior scenes) the action doesn't lag.

It's kismet.

Amy

[dmytryp]

The 250 words/page method seems so...sneaky. I know what its purpose is (to determine page count), but I still feel all slimy when I tell someone my book is 73,500 words long, when I know darn good and well it's only 60,700 words long right now. How do you get over word count guilt?

Why would you feel guilt if this is you were asked to count.
In the end, it may be wrong. It may be inaccurate, but it gives an estimate of the total book length. I think I mentioned this earlier, but here we go again -- I beta-read a novel longer than mine by 8k if using MS word, yet shorter than mine by thirty something pages, which is something like 7.5k if you do it 250w/p. I just have a lot more dl and generally white space on the page.
In the end, I suggest to look at the submission guidlines. If it is important, the publisher/agent will mention the method.

[callalily61]

Chiming in:

I just sent my new mystery to my agent. Word count using MS word was 71K. She likes it, but said I need to get it to 80K because it will be easier to sell--I need to remove the possible obstacle of short count.

I can fix this--I see my way to a subplot and I'm notoriously sparse with description.

So--I'm thinking word count using MS Word is what people are looking at. Alas, because the 250/page had me at 76K--much less to add!

[Bufty]

If a manuscript is e-mailed, the MS word count will be obtained with an instant key click. Use MS unless told to do otherwise by specific guidelines. It's not a good idea to multiply your pages by 250. What if you have a lot of dialogue? You'll be way off count and it will come to light.

And MS is an accepted word count.

[auntybug]

Wow....you guys make my head spin...I just always went to the word count...yikes. I'm at 65K also & figured I have to hit 80K before I even think about querying on it. I like Bufty's idea...it's easy. I hope I don't find someone that wants it like previously mentioned - I'll have to have my 10 year old help me with the math:D

Great thread! Thanks!

[Elaine Margarett]

Definately check your submission guidelines. With that said, I've been told over and over that traditional publishers (not e-pubs) go by page number for word count. The reason for this is it's the number of pages and not words that determines the thickness of the book and therefore how it fits on the bookstore's shelf. Standard fromatting is as follows: Margins should be set for 1" all the way around. Line spacing should be set for exactly 25 (in MS word go to paragraph format in order to do this). Yes, lots of dialog and single lines will up your word count. And to a lesser degree, whether or not you use Courier 12 pt or New Times Roman. With this formula, each page is counted as 250 words, regardless of the actually number. A 100k words will come in at approximately 400 pages.

When it somes to the actual printing of the book, typesetters will play with the font size and margins to make the spine of the book fit to within the publisher's standards. That's why some books you pick up will have larger or smaller print depending on how it fits. You'll also notice some books seem to have a lot more extra(blank) pages. It all depends on how the wide the finished book is.

Because of this, word counts are approxiamate. If you come within 5000, give or take, the publisher can work with it. Go too far over or under and chances are, they'll look for another project.

I targeted my first ms for 100 k words and I came in a little over...using MS word count. It wasn't until I started submitting that I realized that when formatted to industry standards what I actually had was 129, 000 words!


EM

[Willowmound]

Many of the books called classics would not be published today. In order to justify inflated cover prices authors are required to describe the volume of bellybutton lint their protagonist plucks out before breakfast, which is also described at length. Can anyone else see the exact spot where the author was forced to go back in and add superfluous rigamarole to fatten the novel? I can usually spot it without trying.

So, the old statement 'a book is as long as it needs to tell the story' is no longer valid.


What?

[She_wulf]

Definately check your submission guidelines. With that said, I've been told over and over that traditional publishers (not e-pubs) go by page number for word count. The reason for this is it's the number of pages and not words that determines the thickness of the book and therefore how it fits on the bookstore's shelf. Standard fromatting is as follows: Margins should be set for 1" all the way around. Line spacing should be set for exactly 25 (in MS word go to paragraph format in order to do this). Yes, lots of dialog and single lines will up your word count. And to a lesser degree, whether or not you use Courier 12 pt or New Times Roman. With this formula, each page is counted as 250 words, regardless of the actually number. A 100k words will come in at approximately 400 pages.

When it somes to the actual printing of the book, typesetters will play with the font size and margins to make the spine of the book fit to within the publisher's standards. That's why some books you pick up will have larger or smaller print depending on how it fits. You'll also notice some books seem to have a lot more extra(blank) pages. It all depends on how the wide the finished book is.

Because of this, word counts are approxiamate. If you come within 5000, give or take, the publisher can work with it. Go too far over or under and chances are, they'll look for another project.

I targeted my first ms for 100 k words and I came in a little over...using MS word count. It wasn't until I started submitting that I realized that when formatted to industry standards what I actually had was 129, 000 words!


EM
Almost an epic.

:hi:

[joyce]

I know when I sent my first novel out to agents that was at 74K, I had many agents send my query back stating they accepted nothing under 80K. It was in the fantasy genre. I looked it over again and did one more edit and sent it back out at around 84K. I finally started to get bites and nibbles. Now I'm always striving to get at least 80K. Good luck.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm aiming for 50k for my WIP. The final draft will probably be somewhere around 55-60k at a stretch.

Size isn't important; it's what you do with it that counts.

*cough*

[astonwest]

Size isn't importantWhen agents are telling you they won't accept anything less than 80K, size becomes a little more important. That's why later this year, I'm going to get back in and edit my 56K manuscript, bumping it up above the 80K mark.

[IceCreamEmpress]

When agents are telling you they won't accept anything less than 80K, size becomes a little more important.

I think this is a difference between the US and UK publishing markets, actually. There doesn't seem to be the same minimum length requirement among UK publishers.

[astonwest]

Sounds like I need to start looking at UK publishers... ;)

[scarletpeaches]

When agents are telling you they won't accept anything less than 80K, size becomes a little more important. That's why later this year, I'm going to get back in and edit my 56K manuscript, bumping it up above the 80K mark.

That's just daft. Your book will read like it's 24k of filler.

[astonwest]

That's just daft. Your book will read like it's 24k of filler.Depends on how I do it. There are some plot lines I could expand on and still not have "filler" if I tie them in to the rest of the book correctly.