Grammar ?

[Susan Gable]

I don't know if there's someplace better to ask this.

In this sentence:

"You're already two months pregnant."

Should there be an apostrophe after the s in months? If so, why? Can you give a grammar reference to support this?

I'm going over the final proofs of my book before printing, and a copyeditor stuck an apostrophe in there and it just looks wrong to me. But I can't find an answer in my reference books.

Somebody HELP! Please!

Thanks in advance!

Susan G.

[Richard]

No, there shouldn't. Months isn't possessive, nor is there a missing word, or any other reason for one. You wouldn't write 'It'll take two month's before the parcel will arrive'.

[maestrowork]

But you'd write "there is a two months' gap between his death and his burial."

No?

[Mark]

Time is possessive, so she would be two months' pregnant, but I think it is evolving to the point where either has become acceptable. Or if you are that uncomfortable, reword it. She is in the second month of her pregnancy.

A good book for this stuff is "Woe is I", by Patricia T. O'Conner.

[Jamesaritchie]

But you'd write "there is a two months' gap between his death and his burial."

No?

I'd write, "There was a two month gap between his death and burial."

Or, "There is a two month gap between his death and burial."

No need for a plural or a possessive.

[Susan Gable]

Thanks, everyone, for the responses. Mark, I hadn't realized that time could be possessive. Someone else told me that it's an either or thing, so then I will leave it alone. As long as it's correct, then I can deal with it looking weird to me, even if both choices are acceptable.

:)

Susan G.

[reph]

Yes, maestro, you would.

In no case should it be "two month's."

Examples of correct use:

There is a two months' gap.

There is a two-month gap. (This version reads better, though)

There was a three-week delay.

The package was three weeks late. (Adverbial use of number + plural noun)

You're already two months pregnant. (Same here: adverbial use of number + plural noun)

The company owes her two months' back pay. (A true possessive here)

Tell your editor I have 30 years' experience at copy editing. (That could be an example, but that's not the reason to tell her.) "Pregnant" is an adjective. She shouldn't be trying to make a possessive in front of an adjective.

[Medievalist]

In no case should it be "two month's."Tell your editor I have 30 years' experience at copy editing. (That could be an example, but that's not the reason to tell her.) "Pregnant" is an adjective. She shouldn't be trying to make a possessive in front of an adjective.

Tell your editor that a Ph.D. candidate in English agrees, and is perfectly willing to provide supporting citations.

[maestrowork]

Trust Reph. She knows her stuff.

You'd say "two months pregant" but "two months' pregnancy" or "two-month pregnancy."

Isn't English fun?

[Susan Gable]

Tell your editor that a Ph.D. candidate in English agrees, and is perfectly willing to provide supporting citations.


Ooooo, you guys are AWESOME! Thanks for the reasoning and back-up!

Susan G.

[katiemac]

Always go to reph for grammar.

And Medievalist, it seems, knows the right stuff as well.

[Jamesaritchie]

Yes, maestro, you would.

In no case should it be "two month's."

Examples of correct use:

There is a two months' gap.

There is a two-month gap. (This version reads better, though)

There was a three-week delay.

The package was three weeks late. (Adverbial use of number + plural noun)

You're already two months pregnant. (Same here: adverbial use of number + plural noun)

The company owes her two months' back pay. (A true possessive here)

Tell your editor I have 30 years' experience at copy editing. (That could be an example, but that's not the reason to tell her.) "Pregnant" is an adjective. She shouldn't be trying to make a possessive in front of an adjective.

Why would you ever writer a "two months' gap?" I don't see any basis for this in grammar. "Two-month" gap, yes, with or without the hyphen, but what's that rationalization for sticking the apostrophe on there? This would have drawn a quick lecture from my college professor. At best, it isn't needed, and at worst, it's going to be misunderstood. I don't even see a basis for using the "s" on month, let alone an apostrophe after it.

As for "month's," the only time such usage was allowed, or demanded, was in somethng like "A month's pay," or "This month's business."

[Medievalist]

Why would you ever writer a "two months' gap?" I don't see any basis for this in grammar. "Two-month" gap, yes, with or without the hyphen, but what's that rationalization for sticking the apostrophe on there?

It is needed; it is standard, and it is correct. I'll provide citations if you'd like. I know this is covered in the Chicago Manual of Style section on apostrophes; 6.something. I can check later.

The reason you need the apostrophe is not because it's a possessive; it isn't, really, though you need an apostrophe for a similar reason, to indicate ommitted letters.

Possesive nouns and pronouns, properly speaking, are instances of the genitive case, which we mostly forget about in modern English.

"Two months gap" is an example of the genitive of time. It's really saying "a gap of two months." The "of" used to be indicated, until about 1480 or so, usually with an -es suffix, that is, the suffix used for the genitive case. The apostrophe was introduced in the genitive by printers to save letters (they adoped a ms. abbreviation).

[reph]

Jamesaritchie, I wouldn't write "a two months' gap." I was only confirming that if someone wrote "a two months gap," which was a sequence of words in maestro's example,

But you'd write "there is a two months' gap between his death and his burial."

No?

it would need an apostrophe.

"A two-month gap," which I prefer, needs a hyphen.

[Medievalist]

I like the hyphen better as well. But strictly speaking, "a two months gap between his death and his burial" is grammatically correct.

Just socially awkward <g>

And I've checked; see Chicago Manual of Style section 6.14.

[reph]

I have the 12th edition of Chicago, and my Sec. 6.14 is about something else. My Table 6.1, "A Spelling Guide for Compound Words," has this entry:

TYPE COMPOUND
ten-foot pole

SIMILAR COMPOUNDS
three-mile limit, 100-yard dash, one-inch margin, 10-meter band, four-year-old boy but: 10 percent increase

REMARKS
Type: cardinal number + unit of measurement. Hyphenate compound if it precedes noun.


Have they changed the rule already?

[Medievalist]

I'm looking at the 13th ed. 1982 of the Chicago Manual of Style, section 6.14 p. 161. It's the Spelling:Possesssives:Apostrophes section. It reads as follows:

Analogous to possessives, and formed like them, are expressions of duration based on the old genitive case:

an hour's delay in three days' time

[maestrowork]

I learned something like "two months' gap" and "one-year-old baby" when I was a young boy, and that stuck with exactly because it was "odd" to me. But I learned and I remember.

[Medievalist]

I learned something like "two months' gap" and "one-year-old baby" when I was a young boy, and that stuck with exactly because it was "odd" to me. But I learned and I remember.

Everything I know about English grammar I learned from Middle English ;).

[preyer]

'the flat tire's thumping was driving me crazy.'

that's how i would have written it just a few years ago. now, without the apostrophe as i've noticed the possessive of objects tend to leave out the apostrophe, i reckon for style's sake. be it known i don't know what 'genitive' means, though, lol. as it seems to be now, i can pick up ten random books off the shelves and can find three or four different 'methods' of 'grammar' (i.e. three or four different levels of ignorance and/or giving a damn).

but, i'd write:

'a chrysler's junkitude never failed to impress,' because 'chrysler' is almost a proper name.

'the windows dirty panes precluded spying in on britney while she was bathing,' is just how i'd write that. now that i'm used to it, i have to admit that, while grammatically wrong, it does appear more pleasing on paper. sure, i write around that anyway, i'm just saying for purposes of examples....

there don't seem to be many bastions of grammar left. certainly, i'm not one. but what does irk me is a book full of half-quotes. that's just irritating. this from a guy whose mind is boggled over 'lay' and 'lie,' which is never as easy as it sounds. i swear they've added some more rules to this since last i looked up the proper usage (this is also why i hardly ever use the word).

anyway, i'd change my use of apostrophes and even hyphens (though i think i do a decent job of that) to suit an editor's comfort level. since most americans are pretty lax towards advanced grammar, i wonder if it would be much of a problem. if it is, that's why people like reph have jobs, eh?

[maestrowork]

Just write "the windows dirty panes" -- your editor will sooner or later come back to you and demand that apostrophe (or change it to "the dirty window panes") ... if you ever get that far. ;)

[Medievalist]

Genitive is an old school grammatical/linguistic term. Earlier grammatical terms for describing English were based on those used in Latin. Genitive is a case. Modern English nouns don't usually have case, except for pronouns. In modern English we tend to use prepositions instead of changing the noun.
.
I is the Nominative or Subject case
Me is the object case
Mine is the genitive

There are different kinds of genitives. Modern English still has the possessive, the genitive of time, and the genitive of measurement. You could say that a genitive is also used to indicate source, when something is part of something (trees of France). Another way of thinking about the genitive is that it refers to expressions using "of."

If you quote me to a linguist, he'll die of laughter and I'll deny I said that ;) But it mostly works.

The word genitive is derived from the same Latin verb that gave us "beget." That kind of makes sense too.

[preyer]

thanks for that, med.

maes, i don't know-- i've seen plenty of examples where the way i wrote it would definitely fly, so who knows? something else i've always been taught was to put a comma after 'but' when it begins a sentence, something i still do. but, most writers now, it seems, don't do that. and how many sentences do we see that begins with a prepositional phrase? it would be my dumb luck to find the one editor who had qualms with a sentence starting, 'under the windows panes...' and harping on the lack of an apostrophe.

[reph]

I'm looking at the 13th ed. 1982 of the Chicago Manual of Style, section 6.14 p. 161. It's the Spelling:Possesssives:Apostrophes section.
The 12th edition doesn't have that section. The only subsection under Spelling: Possessives is Proper Nouns.

I think the purpose of the passage you quoted is to give permission to form the possessive of a "time" word, such as "hour." A few posts back, I was talking about hyphenation, saying Chicago supported the requirement of a hyphen in "a two[-]month gap." I believe an apostrophe is required in "a two months['] gap," too, although I haven't found Chicago saying so.

"A two months' gap" means a gap of two months, as you know – hence the genitive.

preyer: 'the flat tire's thumping was driving me crazy.'

that's how i would have written it just a few years ago. now, without the apostrophe as i've noticed the possessive of objects tend to leave out the apostrophe, i reckon for style's sake.

Objects aren't supposed to have a possessive, except for those time words ("hour," etc.) and a few exceptions like "world" or in poetic use. When you see "the flat tire thumping," that isn't a possessive with the apostrophe + S left out. It has the same structure as "The girl wearing a yellow T shirt said she'd lost her keys."

that's why people like reph have jobs, eh?

Actually, I don't have a job. People like me might have jobs, though.

[reph]

something else i've always been taught was to put a comma after 'but' when it begins a sentence, something i still do.
No, no! Don't do that!

There's so much bad advice around. I'd like to find out where it comes from and stop it at the source.

[preyer]

that was taught by my english teacher.

[MacAllister]

English teachers don't know everything either, preyer. I've had more post-secondary English than most of the English teachers I know. I manage to overuse and misuse commas all OVER the place, in spite of my best intentions to stop.

Reph, I don't think there is necessarily one source of this misinformation--I think commas breed indiscriminately, resulting in feral comma colonies, which then infest otherwise decent prose.

[maestrowork]

That, my friend, is, a very, good, argument.

(Does that read like William Shatner or what?)

[Rose]

I've spent a good portion of the last 12 years editing copy written (and I use the term loosely) by corporate presidents, CEOS, and other people who raked in at least double my salary and usually much more.

I'm convinced these "successful" people were taken aside at a young age and told: Screw Strunk and White! Throw in a comma whenever you feel like it, and use apostrophes with abandon...some English major will fix it for you later.

[Susan Gable]

Okay, here's another one of those time/apostrophe questions. <sigh> How about this one?

...he felt as though he owed Brook far more loyalty - sixteen years' worth - than...

Sooooo, does this one get the apostrophe or not? Lemme see if I get what you all were trying to explain earlier in the thread.

It's a time thing. Which is why the copyeditor put the apostrophe in there. Because time can be possessive.

Now, I suppose if I knew for certain what part of speech "worth" is in that sentence, I might be able to tell if the apostrophe should be used. If it's an adjective, it doesn't get it. If it's a noun, then it gets it.

Would it be like, he didn't get his money's worth?


:Headbang: You know, I thought I was basically pretty good at grammar skills, but when I get into deep water like this, I know I'm in over my head. (Hence, why I'm here again. <G>)

Okay, so take pity on me. Does this apostrophe stay or go? With this one, my gut is leaning toward stay. (Yes, I use the grammar "force" to make the calls. <G> What does my intuition say?)

Thanks!

Susan G.

[Sheryl Nantus]

my gut says to keep it as is, but what do I know?

:ROFL:

[Susan Gable]

Here's another one:

...at the nurses' station....

I had the apostrophe. Copyeditor removed it. I thought it's the station that belongs to the nurses, hence the apostrophe?? Or is this now a noun in and of itself, the nurses station?? (maybe I should just change it to nursING station, and avoid the whole thing.)

Has someone changed all the grammar rules when I wasn't looking? <sigh> I hate this whole "language changes." If the rule is a rule, and that's what we were taught, then they shouldn't go changing it on us.

And while I'm venting, I'm also annoyed at the changing of my verbs from things like : had proven to had proved. I realize that both are correct choices, but I don't LIKE the -ed versions when the -en versions are allowed. Those are the words I use, the -en ones. <sigh>

Thank you for listening to my grammar rants and for your help. :)

Susan G.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you don't like what the copyeditor did, you have the ultimate weapon in your hand. Write the word STET in the margin.

[maestrowork]

Here's another one:

...at the nurses' station....


I think it's the "nurse's station." Anyone?

[Susan Gable]

I think it's the "nurse's station." Anyone?

But it belongs to a GROUP of nurses, hence more than one, hence why I put the apostrophe after the s.

????

:Huh: :Huh: :Huh: :Huh:

Susan G.

[TashaGoddard]

Nurses' station is correct; nurses station could be argued for, but I'd be inclined to either put the apostrophe in, or change it (as you suggested) to nursing station (or maybe even nurse station). Nurse's station is absolutely and definitively wrong (unless, of course, the station is for just one nurse!).

[maestrowork]

I just checked multiple sources, including hospital and nursing school docs, and the common use is "the nurse's station."


I will leave it to the grammar pros like Reph and Medievalist.

[MacAllister]

Hmmm. A quick check confirms what Maestro just said..."Nurse's Station" seems to be a broadly accepted common usage.

Probably a treatment of the noun "nurse" as singular, but nonspecific.

Google brings up some 90,000 hits for "nurse's station"

HOWEVER...it brings up over a million hits for "nurses station"...the problem it that those million hits include the previous 90,000--the search parameters are apparently prepared to overlook anything so tiny as an apostrophe.

Personally? I'd call it a nurses station. However, if it came down to it, I'd use it to trade for the "months'" apostrophe: give your young editor "nurse's" and take "months" in return...

[maestrowork]

I think that's the thing... it's treated as a collective noun, like police, fireman, officer, doctor, etc. Do we say "the doctor's office" or the "doctors' office" if the office is shared by a few doctors? Is it the "teacher's lounge" or the "teachers lounge" or the "teachers' lounge."

Interesting....

[Susan Gable]

Hmmm. Personally? I'd call it a nurses station. However, if it came down to it, I'd use it to trade for the "months'" apostrophe: give your young editor "nurse's" and take "months" in return...

LOL - Yes, compromise is always a good thing. And this one sounds like a good plan of action. Thanks!

Susan G.

[JanaLanier]

I love it when a good grammar war breaks out.

:popcorn:
::imagining feral comma colonies::

[Nateskate]

Stop it you grammatical teases; you're killing me. If I had your superpowers, I'd conquor the literary world!

[reph]

sixteen years' worth
the nurses' station (you wouldn't say "the salesmen coffee break," would you?)
proved/proven: it depends, but "proved" is correct in most uses

[Vipersniper]

:Trophy: I might try that on spell check to see how it goes. I thought that you should not use an apostrophe unless it is to dictate possession. My father's cancer and months would not be in the possesive form. But I do love the education one receives here. So that is how you do it? Neato.

[reph]

Judy, you can't trust spell check for decisions like that. It's only a software program. It doesn't make judgments.

Apostrophes belong in lots of places that don't involve possession, like "at day's end" or "one week's pay."

[Maryn]

I'm just warning you all that I'm taking names, because this kind of stuff comes up far too often. I'm good with grammar, but I know when I'm outclassed. (I'm tickled to have gotten a lot of these tricky apostrophes right, even if I couldn't have begun to explain why.)

Judy, don't trust spell check--my last computer had "judgement" in its dictionary. Wrong! (I learned this morning that this computer is missing "keister" but I'll let it slide, since it's slang.)

Maryn

[Medievalist]

Judy, don't trust spell check--my last computer had "judgement" in its dictionary. Wrong! (I learned this morning that this computer is missing "keister" but I'll let it slide, since it's slang.)
Maryn

Judgement is an acceptable alternate spelling; local dialect (British/U.S., etc.) usually favors either judgment or judgement. Dictionaries take sides, and it might not be the one your editor/publisher favor.

Just pick an accepted spelling and use it all the time; your editor will ultimately say yay or nay.

And, speaking as someone who has worked on spell checking, grammar checking and a variety of parsing engines, they all suck.

The holy grail for grammar checking is to achieve the literacy level of a thirteen year old native speaker of the standard dialect. We're nowhere near reaching that goal for English, and are likely going to lag behind a number of other languages in accomplishing it.

Don't trust a grammar checker, don't trust a spell checker. They aren't the final word.

Get a good unabridged dictionary or three, a good usage manual (like first or second edition Fowler) a basic grammar text, and use the resources (http://www.bartleby.com/usage/) at Bartleby. I usually caution people against using a thesaurus, unless you're using one to jog your own memory for a familiar word.

[maestrowork]

Here's another question:

Is it:


She's wearing a white nurse's uniform.

or

She's wearing a white nurse uniform.

[Maryn]

Here's another question:

Is it:


She's wearing a white nurse's uniform.

or

She's wearing a white nurse uniform.Flying by the seat of my pants (no mean feat, in a skirt), I'd say nurse's uniform is closer. However, I'd also be open to nurses' uniform, the possessive-ness being to all nurses, not any individual nurse (white or otherwise) whose uniform is being passed around. (One size really does fit all, huh?)

Maryn, awaiting a more definitive answer from someone else

[reph]

For that sentence, I'd go with "nurse's uniform." However, "The clothing designer who met with the nurses' union said she wanted to use a new kind of fabric for the next nurses' uniform."

[jdkiggins]

Susan,

I just checked The Elements of Grammar by Margaret Shertzer and The Elements of Style by William Strucnk and E.B. White.

It refers to "certain idiomatic expressions referring particularly to time."

Examples shown:

when using the singular: a day's vacation, the apostrophe and s ('s);

a dollar's worth, ( 's ) but more than one: ten dollars' worth, thirty days' grace

I would say after reading this that it is correct as two months' pregnant.

Joanne

[jdkiggins]

Has someone changed all the grammar rules when I wasn't looking? <sigh> I hate this whole "language changes." If the rule is a rule, and that's what we were taught, then they shouldn't go changing it on us.

I'm with you on this one, Susan. My grammar and style books never leave my desk becaues of this.

Oh yes, it's nurses station because nurses is already plural.

Awful, just awful! We have words that sound the same with different spellings: two, to, too. Imagine how those learning the English language feel. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Joanne

[Medievalist]

<sigh> I hate this whole "language changes." If the rule is a rule, and that's what we were taught, then they shouldn't go changing it on us.

The problem isn't so much with langauge changing, or the rules changing, as it is in the way we teach English and writing. I'm almost finished with a Ph.D., and I'm constantly looking things up, in my own work as well as an editor. And I've had more classes in grammar than most English professors. I've noticed that linguists teach and approach grammar entirely differently than English department faculty do, and that ESL faculty have yet a third approach.

Rules are for simple situations; English is not simple. I've quoted this before, but remember what Chaucer wrote:

Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so.
-- Chaucer Troilus and Criseyde Book II ll. 22-25--