How do you count words the old fashioned way?

[Julie Worth]

One thing (among many) I may be doing wrong: How exactly do you count words? Computer count is one thing, and trivial, but my understanding is that some editors calculate by the page, where the standard page has 250 6-character “words”. That is, 25 lines with 60 characters per line (blank spaces included) equals ten words per line and 250 per page.



Now, my questions are: 1. Does anyone really do it this way? 2. What do they call it? And 3., is it supposed to be 60 average characters per line, or maximum characters? If it’s the first, then I’ve been doing it wrong.

[Vomaxx]

How do you count words the old-fashioned way?

Um... one, two, three...?

Sorry. More seriously, I have read so many descriptions about word counts, including the one that says that word count is not the number of words but the number of spaces, that I've become cyncical about it. I just use the word-count feature of my processor. If that's not good enough for some people, they can count my words themselves!

It is typical of the agent/publishing cabal that once someone invents something as useful as an automatic word-counter, which at least saves us poor writers from a wretched mechanical task, we're told it isn't enough--do it some complicated manual way. Do everything else on computers, but count your words by estimating spaces and dividing by sixty, or by the third prime number after 33--and be sure to type all your manuscripts in some equal-space font that looks ugly.... Phooey on them, say I! Double phooey! If I can write it, they can at least......

I'm getting a little carried away, so I'll stop now.

[James D. Macdonald]

Now, my questions are: 1. Does anyone really do it this way?

Yeah, I do it that way.


2. What do they call it?


Wordcount.



And 3., is it supposed to be 60 average characters per line, or maximum characters? If it’s the first, then I’ve been doing it wrong.


Doesn't matter. I just multiply pages by 250 and don't worry about it.

[Julie Worth]

That’s not very helpful, Vomaxx.



Let me rephrase. You adjust your page formatting so that you get 250 six-character words on a page. Then you divide the total number of pages in your manuscript by 4 to get the word count. This will give you more words than a computer count, quite a few more if you have a lot of dialogue and short chapters, as I have (since white space counts as words). But this larger number gives a better idea of the size of the published book. So I’ve been told, anyway. My question is—to get very specific—assuming you’re using Courier New 12 point type, what are the margins to get that magic 250 words per page?

James: Of course it matters. If I use wide margins, I up the count. There's got to be a standard.

[James D. Macdonald]

James: Of course it matters. If I use wide margins, I up the count. There's got to be a standard.

Yes, there's a standard. Ten letters to the inch, one inch margins all around.

Yes, a line of dialog that's a single word long still takes up that entire line.

We use monospaced fonts because you can estimate wordcount from them, and because there's a lot of fiddly hand-work with pencils in the course of editing your book, and you need room to do it.

It doesn't matter if you use 8-point Illegible as your screen font while you're writing your book, or if you print out your reading drafts in 16-point Orgasm, as long as you print out your submission draft in 12-point Courier.

[victoriastrauss]

My question is—to get very specific—assuming you’re using Courier New 12 point type, what are the margins to get that magic 250 words per page?The 250 words is an average based on standard ms. format of Courier New 12pt, double spaced, 1" margins all around (which yields 25 lines per page). Obviously few, if any, pages will contain exactly 250 words, but it averages out over the course of a several hundred page manuscript (and yes, you count partial pages the same way). Use standard formatting, multiply your total page count by 250, and you've got your word count.

There's a much more elaborate way to do it that yields a more accurate figure, but for agents and editors, the calculation above is good enough. Or at least that's been my experience.

- Victoria

[astonwest]

Somewhere on the old board, I saw someone use the 'character + spaces' spec from Word, and divide that total by six to get a word count. That's what I've been using ever since...

[Galoot]

If, for some reason known only to you and your neighbor's talking dog, you write using 3" margins and a 6-point font, just type "XXXXXXX" across an entire line. Count how many Xs you can fit on the line and divide that number by six. Then multiply that by the number of lines on a FULL page. That's how many words you'll get per page, on average.

This is assuming you've used a monospaced font. If not, all bets are off.

And, as Uncle Jim and Victoria say, no matter what fonts, spacing or margins you use while writing, when submitting you should print out your draft in 12-point Courier with 1" inch margins.

[Julie Worth]

...just type "XXXXXXX" across an entire line. Count how many Xs you can fit on the line and divide that number by six. Then multiply that by the number of lines on a FULL page. That's how many words you'll get per page, on average.

Ah, see, that was what I was doing, but that will give you the maximum, not the average, since most lines won't go that far before wrapping to the next.

[Galoot]

Ah, see, that was what I was doing, but that will give you the maximum, not the average, since most lines won't go that far before wrapping to the next.You want the maximum. Diving by six gives you your average.

[Julie Worth]

I guess I wasn’t clear. If I type xxx across the page, I get 64 for 1” margins left and right, and 60 for 1.2” margins left and right. That’s what I meant by maximum. The maximum number of characters per line is sixty with the 1.2” margins, but the average is actually less, since lines don’t typically get to that final x, in fact, they rarely do, and so the average is always less than the maximum.

[mistri]

To confuse matters, wordcount by computer is often (possibly usually?) acceptable in the UK.

[jdkiggins]

Yes, there's a standard. Ten letters to the inch, one inch margins all around.

Yes, a line of dialog that's a single word long still takes up that entire line.

We use monospaced fonts because you can estimate wordcount from them, and because there's a lot of fiddly hand-work with pencils in the course of editing your book, and you need room to do it.

It doesn't matter if you use 8-point Illegible as your screen font while you're writing your book, or if you print out your reading drafts in 16-point Orgasm, as long as you print out your submission draft in 12-point Courier.

Julie,

Listen to Jim, he knows what he's talking about. To make it easier for you, use one inch margins top, bottom, and sides. Doublespace. Use Courier 12 pt. (which is what most editors want). Use the Word doc count. It's close enough. Editors need the space to edit, and believe me, they will edit, so if you're a couple hundred words over, it doesn't matter, as Jim said.

Joanne

[Galoot]

The maximum and the average are two different issues.

If you can squeeze 600 characters onto a line (the maximum) and 25 lines per page, then your average number of words/page will be 2500.

If you can squeeze 65 characters per line (the maximum) and 25 lines per page, your average number of words/page will be about 270. Round to the nearest 50 and that's 250 words/page.

With ragged right edges, it's true that you'll not often reach the extreme right margin. But it's also true that short words are more common than long ones. It works out to 250/page close enough for your editor.

Besides, your editor will do his own word count using his own methods, no matter how long you've told him your story is. He might do it by randomly pulling ten pages from your manuscript and physically counting the words one at a time to get his average or he might put your manuscript on a bathroom scale and figure one pound equals 50,000 words. It doesn't matter what HIS methods are, as long as your own figure is a fairly reasonable first guess.

[astonwest]

If you can squeeze 600 characters onto a line (the maximum) and 25 lines per page, then your average number of words/page will be 2500.

If you can squeeze 65 characters per line (the maximum) and 25 lines per page, your average number of words/page will be about 270. Round to the nearest 50 and that's 250 words/page.

Do quick pieces of dialogue throw a wrench into that mess, or just get washed out in the average?

[James D. Macdonald]

Dialog doesn't matter. Dialog tends to give short lines. They all have to be set in the finished book as short lines. A line of dialog that's just one word long takes up as much space in the finished book as ten average size words in the middle of a paragraph.

[Vipersniper]

:Hail: The education one gets when coming to this forum is really fascinating. I found it very intriguing. One thing when typing in one forum such as Peoplestories.org you have to count the words one by one because of the short space in which you post your story. Speaking of them has anyone had any success with them? I mean they give good advice but I was just wondering. I sent in one story that I think scared the daylights out of them but it was fiction that I adapted off of authorsden.com.