Registering Scripts

[Ron Maiden]

I've done a couple through WGA - one of the other sites mentioned using the library of congress : has anyone used this? any benefits of one over the other, ie cost/whatever??

TIA

[LIVIN]

I've done both. Benefit-wise, I'd say it depends on where you're submitting. I know some contests require WGA registration. That being said, why do library of congress AND WGA? There's always the poor man's method - mail the thing to yourself. And yes, I've done that too.

[dpaterso]

Not surprisingly this question comes up from time to time. Older threads may well have the answer you're looking for.

If you're not sure how to search for these threads:

On the Screen Writing forum thread index page...

Select Search this Forum
Select Advanced Search
Type copyright into the Key Word(s) field
Change Search Entire Posts to Search Titles Only
Select the Search Now button

...and you'll see 6 threads with "copyright" in the subject line.

-Derek

[MrJayVee]

Ugh. People still bring up the "poor man's copyright" (mailing the script to yourself). It doesn't work, folks. It's a waste of time, postage, and a perfectly good script copy. Stick to WGA and LOC.

[Plot Device]

I used to regsiter with the WGA because it's cheaper. I have since relented and from now on I only register with the US Copyright Office. Copyright lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years. WGA is just five years and then you're done, so there's no comparison. Also, WGA does NOT even remotely give you the full legal protection of Title 17 of the US Code, but a copyright does. Huge huge difference.

Sorry, WGA, I luvs ya but ... no soup for you when it comes to where I register my stuff.

[Maryn]

Someone I know at another screenwriting site--a guy who's sold screenplays--recommends registering first with the WGA if and only if you intend to give it to anyone for feedback and you worry about theft. (Why you'd give it to someone you don't trust is beyond him.) When you've done one last rewrite based on that feedback and are ready to market it, that's the time to register your copyright--again, if you fear theft. Better is to send query letters only to agents and prodcos you've checked out thoroughly, so their legitimacy is not in doubt.

Another "Boo!" for anybody who mentions poor man's copyright as a serious option. It's never held up in a US court.

Maryn, sure

[nmstevens]

I've done both. Benefit-wise, I'd say it depends on where you're submitting. I know some contests require WGA registration. That being said, why do library of congress AND WGA? There's always the poor man's method - mail the thing to yourself. And yes, I've done that too.

So far as I've been able to determine, there is no benefit that WGA registration confers that is not confered by registering the copyright with the LOC (that is, they can both provide a legal basis for demonstrating in court that your material existed in a particular form as of a particular date) -- plus there are substantial *legal* benefits that copyright registration confers in the event that you have to bring a lawsuit over copyright infringement in terms of what sorts of damages you are legally permitted to sue for.

Plus WGA registration has a limited lifespan. Ten years may seem like a long time, but I've had scripts that have taken longer than that to reach from creation to sale.

NMS

[Plot Device]

WGA registration has a limited lifespan. Ten years may seem like a long time, but I've had scripts that have taken longer than that to reach from creation to sale.

Is it ten years? I thought it was only five. Oops! Should I go change my post up above?

[dpaterso]

For non-members, WGA is 5 years, ProtectRite is 10 years.

-Derek

[Plot Device]

For non-members, WGA is 5 years, ProtectRite is 10 years.

-Derek


Ahh! So we're BOTH right! :D

[LIVIN]

So far as I've been able to determine, there is no benefit that WGA registration confers that is not confered by registering the copyright with the LOC

I've entered at least one contest in the past that required WGA registration, even if the copyright was registered with the LOC.

[nmstevens]

I've entered at least one contest in the past that required WGA registration, even if the copyright was registered with the LOC.


I stand corrected then, on that point.

For contests (and I suppose there might be some producer who might require it, although I don't know why) that require WGA registration -- then for that purpose, it's necessary.

But it has no *intrinsic* advantage over LOC registration -- and several significant disadvantages.

NMS

[icerose]

If you think about it, those contests that require it are generally hosted by places that are either part of a guild or working in partnership with a company(s) that is a member of a guild and thus they are going to add in requirements that help out/expose those guilds.

[RichHelms]

I do not have direct experience with US system but I do with the Canadian system. When you place a script in the WGoC system you are storing a file of the script for 5 years. You can renew. This file could be retrieved by the courts to prove the work existed on that date.

When you register a copyright in Canada all you do is register a name and author. You don't submit the script so while there is some proof you wrote a script called that title, there is no copy of the script on file. The most amusing part is you can not copyright a title.

Copyright still exists whether you register it or not. Doing both gives the best protection.

[nmstevens]

I do not have direct experience with US system but I do with the Canadian system. When you place a script in the WGoC system you are storing a file of the script for 5 years. You can renew. This file could be retrieved by the courts to prove the work existed on that date.

When you register a copyright in Canada all you do is register a name and author. You don't submit the script so while there is some proof you wrote a script called that title, there is no copy of the script on file. The most amusing part is you can not copyright a title.

Copyright still exists whether you register it or not. Doing both gives the best protection.

In the U.S., copyright exists as of the completion of the work (or first publication) -- but copyright *registration* involves the submission of a copy of the work in question to the library of congress (which is a different thing from copyright itself).

The LOC logs your work in and maintains that copy of your work indefinitely. In the event that you are sued, it can provide legal evidence that your work was submitted to them as of a certain date and that they have had possession of it, in the form submitted (since they've held onto it) since that date of submission -- which is exactly what Guild registration does.

In addition -- and more importantly, if your work is registered, you are abile to collect statutory damages (such as punitive damages) and attorney's fees in the event of a successful lawsuit -- which you will *not* be able to otherwise collect, even if you sue and win.

In fact, legally, you will have to register the copyright in order to bring a lawsuit for copyright infringement.

It makes it much harder to do if the people who stole your work registered the copyright of the thing they stole and then you have to come along and register the copyright for the material that you wrote five years before but only got around to registering it two years after they stole in, registered it, and made the movie.

NMS

[RichHelms]

In fact, legally, you will have to register the copyright in order to bring a lawsuit for copyright infringement.

Assuming this then you don't have copyright until you register it in the US as copyright assumes you are protected. In Canada you have copyright and can seek legal action whether it is registered or not. Registration only aids in supporting your claim.

[Plot Device]

Assuming this then you don't have copyright until you register it in the US as copyright assumes you are protected. In Canada you have copyright and can seek legal action whether it is registered or not. Registration only aids in supporting your claim.

I believe in America we have this thing about "intellectual property" (a very specific legal thing that I am unable to define because I'm not a lawyer) and then related to that concept is the crime called "intellectual theft." The laws governing a copyright are (I am told) a whole lot stronger than the laws about intellectual theft.

If anyone here can help me out, I believe IIRC that intellectual theft is governed by state laws, while copyright falls under federal laws. And a federal case is (or so I am told) always better than a state case.

Anyone care to add or correct?

[Bergerac]

I believe in America we have this thing about "intellectual property"


Uh... you do realize that Canada is in North America, right?

Americans = citizens of the USA
Canadians = citizens of Canada
United States = home of Americans
Canada = home of Canadians
America = home of USA and Canada

[NikeeGoddess]

don't forget the Central and South AMERICANS

more specifically we (USA and Canadian folks) are North Americans and not just Americans which can be completely inclusive.

[dpaterso]

It would be real nice if we could keep this at a friendly level and regard what was posted as a mere slip of the keyboard.

-Derek

[NikeeGoddess]

{{{sigh}}}

[nmstevens]

Uh... you do realize that Canada is in North America, right?

Americans = citizens of the USA
Canadians = citizens of Canada
United States = home of Americans
Canada = home of Canadians
America = home of USA and Canada

I'm Canadian and many of us resent those Americans who think they own the continent.

In the above, you have put your finger on the key distinction, and the reason that we who are citizens of the U.S.A. tend to refer to ourselves as being from "America."

You, as a citizen of that country to the North of us, come from "Canada" and, I imagine in situations outside of a discussion such as this one, will tend to refer to yourself as "Canadian."

But as a citizen of the U.S.A. -- we don't call ourselves "U.S.A.-ian's" -- there isn't any simple term for citizens of our country other than "Americans" -- and just as the natural association is that you are a Canadian from Canada, the natural association for me is that I'm an American from America -- meaning the U.S.A.

We're not trying to hog the continent -- it's just that you have another name by which you can succintly refer to your country. We don't -- other than America -- which doesn't mean North America, South America, or both Americas put together, but is simply short for -- United States of America.

Regarding the copyright question U.S.A. vs. Canada, here is a quote taken directly from the LOC website:



"In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following:
Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.
Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U.S. origin.
If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.
If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.
Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies. For additional information, go to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection website at www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/import (http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/import/). Click on “Intellectual Property Rights.”None of the advantages above derive from simply registering your work with the WGA.

And none of them can be conferred by the so-called "poor-man's copyright" which has no legal standing whatsoever.

NMS

[preyer]

you know, i just quit working at pitney bowes last week to make hummer engines. pretty cool. anyway, my job at PB was remanufacturing postal meters. were i good at computers, i'm pretty sure i could reprogramme an I-button (the 'brains' of the thing) and have it read any date i wanted. in other words, i could conceivably create a postage 'stamp' for you from ten years ago (actually, were i just slightly more trained, i'm pretty sure i could have put in any date i wanted). i'm sure duplicating the other marks demarcating that it had been sent can be forged. not that you would do something like this for just any story, but you could, i suppose in theory, fake the 'fact' you had 'poor man's' copyrighted something just like harry potter two years ahead of that first publication, then argue rowling stole that from you (actually, it's probably more believable were someone to sue for a 'stolen' idea from a movie that only made a modest profit). it's almost surprising that no one has tried this, or that we've never heard of it at any rate. to the best of my knowledge, that no one has tried pulling a scam like this, and no one has certainly won a court case that i've ever heard, indicates to me that the 'poor man's copyright' is worthless.

as an aside, all the meters asked for what language you wanted, english or espanol. but, those from canada asked for english or francais. pretty obvious. what i always noted, however, was that those meters returning from the states could, and this is no exaggeration, look as if they sat at the bottom of a swamp for five years, whereas those from canada were oddly very, very clean.

[nmstevens]

you know, i just quit working at pitney bowes last week to make hummer engines. pretty cool. anyway, my job at PB was remanufacturing postal meters. were i good at computers, i'm pretty sure i could reprogramme an I-button (the 'brains' of the thing) and have it read any date i wanted. in other words, i could conceivably create a postage 'stamp' for you from ten years ago (actually, were i just slightly more trained, i'm pretty sure i could have put in any date i wanted). i'm sure duplicating the other marks demarcating that it had been sent can be forged. not that you would do something like this for just any story, but you could, i suppose in theory, fake the 'fact' you had 'poor man's' copyrighted something just like harry potter two years ahead of that first publication, then argue rowling stole that from you (actually, it's probably more believable were someone to sue for a 'stolen' idea from a movie that only made a modest profit). it's almost surprising that no one has tried this, or that we've never heard of it at any rate. to the best of my knowledge, that no one has tried pulling a scam like this, and no one has certainly won a court case that i've ever heard, indicates to me that the 'poor man's copyright' is worthless.

as an aside, all the meters asked for what language you wanted, english or espanol. but, those from canada asked for english or francais. pretty obvious. what i always noted, however, was that those meters returning from the states could, and this is no exaggeration, look as if they sat at the bottom of a swamp for five years, whereas those from canada were oddly very, very clean.


The issue with the so-called "poor-man's copyright" isn't the postage stamp, it's the entire methodology -- it's the fact that the document remains in your possession.

I could easily take a manilla envelope, cautiously "unseal" the bottom flap and temporarily reseal it -- then fill it with a hundred sheets of white paper and mail it to myself. Hell, I could just do that at one month intervals indefinitely -- and have ready made blank "poor-man's" copyrights ready to emptied and refilled with whatever I might choose to put into them whenever it suited me.

That, of course, presumes that such a thing would have any value in court.

But it wouldn't. They are completely worthless. For that very reason. They can be tampered with. There is no way to confirm that what was inside the envelope at the time it was put into the hands of the post office is the same as what is taken out of it at the time it's opened in court.

On the other hand, with the LOC, the court considers registration as prima facie proof -- as evidence on its face, that what was delivered to the copyright office on the date of registration is, in fact, what the LOC delivers to the court.

With Guild registration, they will actually provide sworn testimony that your script was registered with them as of a given date and that it has been stored by them and has been kept by them and hasn't been altered since that initial date.

That's the sort of thing that you need -- independent confirmation from a disinterested party that will demonstrated that, as of a given date, your script existed in the form that you are claiming (hopefully a form sufficiently close to that of whoever you're accusion of stealing from you -- and predating the earliest version of their script).

NMS