A Logline Pick-Off

[MichaelSt]

It's time to try out some prospective loglines. I probably should have written more but I didn’t so let's go with what we've got so far. Let me know which one you prefer and why.

The Hegemon: Two men fight over two Magic Rings.

The Hegemon: Two magic rings, one black one red; two men, one good one evil.

The Hegemon: Two men fight to control two magic rings, one with the power of Suggestion, the other with the power of Invisibility.

The Hegemon: A young man's ring gives him the Irresistible Power of Suggestion but he may loose both it and his life to the villain whose ring grants the Power of Invisibility.

The Hegemon: The Black Ring with the Power of Suggestion is in good hands while the Red Ring of Invisibility is in evil hands.

The Hegemon: Two magic rings, one black and one red, find two men, one good and one evil. Winner takes all.

Michael, its a starting point.

[clockwork]

It's time to try out some prospective loglines. I probably should have written more but I didn’t so let's go with what we've got so far. Let me know which one you prefer and why.

The Hegemon: Two men fight over two Magic Rings.

The Hegemon: Two magic rings, one black one red; two men, one good one evil.

The Hegemon: Two men fight to control two magic rings, one with the power of Suggestion, the other with the power of Invisibility.

The Hegemon: A young man's ring gives him the Irresistible Power of Suggestion but he may loose both it and his life to the villain whose ring grants the Power of Invisibility.

The Hegemon: The Black Ring with the Power of Suggestion is in good hands while the Red Ring of Invisibility is in evil hands.

The Hegemon: Two magic rings, one black and one red, find two men, one good and one evil. Winner takes all.

Michael, its a starting point.


Your middle logline is the one that most resembles a logline but even then it's not quite there. (The others read like taglines on movie posters.)

Your logline should identify your protaganist, identify his goal and identify an obstacle that will try to stop him from getting there. Your above example sort of ticks two boxes but we have no clear idea of why he has such a ring, what he plans to do, what he's trying to achieve or why the other guy should want to stop him.

What does your hero want?

[Plot Device]

Hi, I think this might actually need to go into the forum caled Share Your Work.

Meanwhile, you haven't clarified genre (comedy? fanatsy?), nor setting (present day? ancient past? distant future? alternate reality?). And I have no idea what the title means. I know what the defnition of "hegemony" is, but your title is kind of vague.

Beyond all that, the story isn't grabbing me. If you included a synopsis that answers my above questions, then maybe I might be more sparked by it all.

[MichaelSt]

Thanks for having a look. Your comments are both helpful and appreciated.
Michael.

[MichaelSt]

I was thinking about moving this to "Share Your Work" as suggested but decided against it. The points made about "logline" vs. "tagline" and so forth have proven quite valuable. I"ve been prompted to learn more and that's why I bother visiting this forum over so many others. It's been a good experience for me.

Thanks again.
Michael, learnt me a new thing today, in Seattle.

[dpaterso]

If you haven't already, see The Construction of a Logline (http://www.twoadverbs.com/loglinearticle.htm) article on the Two Adverbs (http://www.twoadverbs.com/) site.

Also check out the What makes a great logline? (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8622) thread here in the Script Writing discussion forum.

-Derek

[preyer]

i'm taking 'hegemon' as a person with 'hegemony'? at any rate, it's one of those words that sends people to their dictionaries, and right there i think that's a strike against the title because it, well, it just makes people feel stupid, imo. plus, and this is purely my opinion, but it's not very cool sounding. it sounds like anime. reminds me of 'digimon.'

but, anyway, what's in a title? (well, there's a lot, but it doesn't necessarily mean *I* wouldn't see a movie. i mean, come on, i rented 'vampire assassin' for cripes sake, thus i'll rent anything.) obviously the title should be indicative of the story, but it doesn't convey anything to me without my webster's by my side. maybe if it was 'hegemon the hedgehog' i'd know more what was going on. dunno....

i think you could mention what the conflict is beyond 'good' and 'evil.' those are rather vague and really doesn't give me a mental image. it certainly doesn't tell me *why* these guys are at odds other than one's good and the other is evil. *why* are they about to tear each other's throats out? one guy has a ring and so does the other guy. okay, that seems fair enough. what common denominator forces them to cross paths as it seems they're not after the same exact goal? i'd replace 'good' and 'evil' with an adjective that describes them better. if you offer some kind of character type and make the setting clear, then i can start to imagine the story. too, therein lies, imo, some kind of emotional base for me to get on board with. and the adjectives can give what kind of jobs these guys have and (usually, i think) a general setting. 'a down on his luck professional gambler' could go back to the wild west, but coupled with 'a sultry stock broker' and there's not too much doubt about when it's set, eh?

btw, did i mention i'm a complete amateur? thought you'd like to know.

i've seen advice that goes your logline, i.e. your hook, should have some kind of irony. i don't believe this is the case for every logline, but, still, if there's some ironic twist to your story maybe you can play around with that?

i'm sure there are about a million websites on how to write the killer logline. for what it's worth, i agree with clock on which one was best.

i think the best piece of advice i've really seen is imagine describing your story to your friend in one or two sentences.

so let's try it. buddy. pal o' mine. *mon ami*. in one sentence, what's the story about? we can weed out verbosity, so let 'er rip.

for what it's worth, i hate most movie titles, especially ones that sound so generic that even if it's a great movie you'll confuse it with the next generic title you hear. i'm sure there's a movie called 'into the night'... or 'on the edge'... certainly one's called 'on the edge of night.' and it's like the most forgettable kind of titles imaginable. hm, wrong word, 'imaginable,' as there's absolutely no imagination involved at all. i 'imagine' is what happens when the marketing heads bump together and asks what the bean counters think in a committee. so you've got marketing heads and bean counters... basically bean heads coming up with titles so lame they'd make shopping for wallpaper border with your wife seem as if it were the superbowl played on top of nascars by comparison.

or so i imagine it, at any rate....

[Mac H.]

I'm with the others here.

I can't tell if it these stories are set in present day reality or a fantasy world with dragons and elves.

Another issue is that the story (as presented) seems incredibly derivative and 'me-to'. I'm sure there are plenty of things that makes this story interesting, but you haven't mentioned them - just something about a couple of guys who like wearing rings.

Good & Evil are also incredibly 'black and white', and so lack any nuance or subtlety.

The one that came closest (even with spelling mistake) was the one that described one of the characters as a 'young man' .. because it was other only one that gave a hint of character. Even that one lost once it described the antagonist as simply a 'villain'.

Of course, that may the affect you are after - a black-and-white story about two characters who have no personalities beyond 'hero' and 'villain' .. if so, ignore this feedback !

Good luck,

Mac

[nmstevens]

It's time to try out some prospective loglines. I probably should have written more but I didn’t so let's go with what we've got so far. Let me know which one you prefer and why.

The Hegemon: Two men fight over two Magic Rings.

The Hegemon: Two magic rings, one black one red; two men, one good one evil.

The Hegemon: Two men fight to control two magic rings, one with the power of Suggestion, the other with the power of Invisibility.

The Hegemon: A young man's ring gives him the Irresistible Power of Suggestion but he may loose both it and his life to the villain whose ring grants the Power of Invisibility.

The Hegemon: The Black Ring with the Power of Suggestion is in good hands while the Red Ring of Invisibility is in evil hands.

The Hegemon: Two magic rings, one black and one red, find two men, one good and one evil. Winner takes all.

Michael, its a starting point.



Okay -- here's the cold hard truth.

The purpose of a logline is to get someone to read your script.

But not just like your friends or your Mom and Dad.

The purpose of a logline is to get someone to read your script who is either an agent -- whose job it is to try to sell your script to someone who might be interested in making it -- or a producer, whose job it is to either make it himself or, in turn, to get financing from someone else who is going to want to make it.

Optioning a script runs from nothing up to five figures.

Buying a script, usually around six figures, occasionally low seven.

Making a movie based on a script -- anywhere from seven figures,minimally, up to nine figures -- that's 100,000,000 dollars, or more.

You write that logline to convince those people to spend that money -- not the option money, not even the "buying the script" money -- that money down in the last column -- that millions up to hundreds of millions of dollars.

Do you think that any of those loglines are worth thirty, fifty, eighty, a hundred millions dollars?

To me -- and I'm telling you flat you and not trying to hurt your feelings -- this sounds like a retread of Lord of the Rings -- okay, so it's two rings instead of one and one controls minds.

You know what this is called? It's called plot, and it may be very important to you, but it's not central to the person writing the check for a hundred million dollars.

What that guy is thinking is -- New Line is planning on making The Hobbit and The Hobbit Part 2 (whatever that's going to be) which is going to have more invisibility rings that anyone is going to want or need.

Plus, it's going to be produced by Peter Jackson, based on Tolkien -- and who needs your unknown thing about an evil magic invisibility ring that sounds like its drawing water from exactly the same well, only it's pulling up something about another ring?

Now -- maybe that's completely wrong. For all I know, this could be taking place on the lower east side of Manhattan and the hero and villain could be a pair of punk rockers.

Right now, you know the answer to this question. We don't.

A logline has to convey what the movie is about -- and it also has to convey it's "unique selling point" -- why read this script, why buy it, why make this movie.

If what you're offering is a magic evil invisibility ring -- sorry, that's taken.

If the best that you can add to it to make it unique is -- oh, we've also got another ring that controls minds -- you know, sort of like the way, say -- the force does? Sorry -- that's also not exactly brand new.

And to be honest, if this is taking place in some pseudo-medieval middle-earthy type place, you're in trouble.

What you need to do is to look hard at your script and to try to identify what makes it unique -- what makes it *not* like these other projects, and to emphasize that in your logline.

NMS

[LIVIN]

Everyone's pretty much said everything, so I'm merely going to disagree with this:

i'm taking 'hegemon' as a person with 'hegemony'? at any rate, it's one of those words that sends people to their dictionaries, and right there i think that's a strike against the title because it, well, it just makes people feel stupid, imo.


For me (and this is just me) a "non everyday word" (if that's what you want to call it, does not turn me off. However, if others feel the same, I'd like to know, since one of my current scripts is titled with a "non everyday word"

[nmstevens]

Everyone's pretty much said everything, so I'm merely going to disagree with this:



For me (and this is just me) a "non everyday word" (if that's what you want to call it, does not turn me off. However, if others feel the same, I'd like to know, since one of my current scripts is titled with a "non everyday word"

It doesn't have to be an every day word (or name).

But it has to be a word or a name that is A) Understandable or--

-- if not understandable, a word or name the pronunciation of which is self-evident.

Thus -- Tron and Serafina -- fine.

Valley of Gwangi and Tsotsi -- a bit tougher.

And obviously, if people aren't going to know what the word means, it had better be intriguing just in terms of the sound itself (the way Tron is) -- because they're not going to go looking it up in a dictionary.

And while I think I know how to pronounce Hegemony (accent on the second syllable, hard G) -- I couldn't begin to tell you how to pronounce Hegemon -- and someone unfamiliar with the Hegemony, I'm sure, would have a choice of three or four possible pronunciations.

And if you're not sure how to pronounce the word, you can't form a sense of the word, simply as a sound -- in the "Tron" sense.

So I wouldn't think that it's a great title.

NMS

[Plot Device]

And if you're not sure how to pronounce the word, you can't form a sense of the word, simply as a sound -- in the "Tron" sense.


To me THIS is an excellent treatise on why part of our craft as writers is to be "word smiths." While the computer is one of our tools, words are the materials we work with --like a tailor works with cloth, or a carpenter works with wood. We must have an innate sense of words, how they sound when being prononced, how they "strike" people when they are heard, etc.

Titles, meanwhile, are desperately important. The title is the VERY first aspect of our work that a prospective reader encounters, and we have to second guess how the words in the title will strike that reader. This second guessing includes how the word sounds, how easilly it is read (or not read) and pronounced (prononced not just on the tongue but also in a person's head as they silently read), whether it will stump people or intrigue them, etc.

The titles of novels are (usually) better it they are somehow "deep" and poetic. Film titles, however, need to havea bit more wit to them, possibly layered with dual meaning, or have a joke hidden in them. Or else a film title should invoke a truly electrifying concept. But a title should NOT be tongue-twister or an obscure SAT vocabulary word --or BOTH! (Talk about off-putting!)



I actually am just as particular about choosing names for characetrs. I try to pick names that are SHORT (no more than six letters long) easilly read by a reader when reading silently (I recall the first time I read the name "Phoebe" in a story book--it was "Catcher in the Rye" and I said huh??), recognizable, easily heard by an audience in a move theatre, gender-specific, and catchy.

[LIVIN]

And obviously, if people aren't going to know what the word means, it had better be intriguing just in terms of the sound itself

Oh, hizzell yeah it is!

BTW, how do you pronounce Tron? :D

[MichaelSt]

I came to most of the same conclusions pretty quickly concerning both the manuscript's working title, "The Hegemon" as well as any mention of rings in the logline. This story's Ring-influence stems from Plato's "Second Book of the Republic." Plato's arguments concerning the individual exercise of absolute power inform most of the story's issues.

Many have noted that in today's marketplace any mention of a magic ring or rings casts a spell which links directly to J.R. Tolkien. I can not fault anyone for assuming this connection exists even if one isn't extent or implied in the script.

Thus, a title change is in order. That's not a problem; I can do that. I will also consider revising my choice of magic talisman or the script's dependency upon having one.

I am most thankful for those comments on what does and does not constitute a logline. I needed that lesson as you have seen. Your efforts to point out my mistakes have not been in vain
Thanks again,
Michael.

[preyer]

'For me (and this is just me) a "non everyday word" (if that's what you want to call it, does not turn me off. However, if others feel the same, I'd like to know, since one of my current scripts is titled with a "non everyday word"' ~ nm is right, no one is going to go to their dictionaries. that's the point. ask anyone the definition of hegemony and they won't know. they'll have heard the word before, but never in my 38 years have i ever that word used in casual conversation. but it feels like one of those words we should know, hence the, 'gee, am i the only guy here who doesn't know what that means?' feeling. i hate that. and it happens more than i care to admit because i actually try to use words with more than two syllables every now and then.

i probably shouldn't have been so harsh sounding on the title. i'm sure it would have been changed anyway. certainly an agent would have told you it has to go for all the same good reasons above.

'tron' is a great title. it sounds elecTRONic, illustrating a part of what it's about. better videogame than a movie, but.... livin, if you've got a great title that's a bit off the beaten path, that's kick ass.

this whole thing makes me wonder how many, if any, great movies never got made because the writer sucked at titles and loglines? lol. (not that you do, mike, don't get me wrong.) it makes me wonder if you're good at one, are the odds good that you're good at the other, too?

well, i hope you don't despair, mike. if nothing else, flip it on its ear and make it a comedy with some romantic subplot. then the magick ring is purchased in a pawn shop by some schlub intending on giving it to the woman he loves (but maybe doesn't really love him back, who knows). someone out there, invariably some rich corporate type, is searching for the same thing. the rest writes itself, eh? you can even get fancy with it and have the good ring exert some influence on the bad guy and the evil ring influence the good guy to where his newfound bad-boy-edness is what attracts the previously unattainable girl. connect the dots from there. yes, i do rule, thanks for noticing. :) (perhaps the power of the talisman jumps from object to object? that would kick ass. at the end, it jumps onto a piece of paper, put into a bottle and tossed into the sea, to be picked up on the shores of a faraway land. yeah, if i ever have a kid, i just might name him 'pathos.')

changing talismans is the easy way to go. to get rid of them altogether? ouch. talk about a rewrite! i think the most obvious is to make them gems which can be affixed to anything from a necklace to a cane.

oh, anyway... good luck, keep us informed. i for one am curious as to what you've got in mind and any new titles and loglines you come up with.

[MichaelSt]

New title, "The Dorkmeister, King of Obliviots."

No?

Yeah, it lacks something doesn't it? Something . . . deep.
Michael still writing, in Seattle.

[preyer]

no, no, great title. you've got a dorkmeister. he doesn't *know* he's a dorkmeister, though. why? because hippie mom homeschooled him and sheltered him too much. so when mom is morally obligated to picket the white house because she feels strongly about corn stalks' rights not to be threshed, off to daddy's for a week he goes. dad doesn't want anything to do with him and enrolls him in public school. of course, by the end, the dorkmeister turns out to be pretty cool and dad winds up being a real man, and more importantly, a real father. when mom discovers the error in her over-protective ways, can a family reunion be far behind? i think not, walt. *preyer sitting here with his mickey ears on*

got any more titles? :)