Bransford on openings

[blacbird]

Nathan Bransford's blog today has some very interesting comments on openings, related to the current first-page contest. He makes a particularly good point about "grabbing an agent" with the opening. Specifically, that while it is obviously necessary to get the attention of the agent quickly, to demonstrate you can tell an engaging story and write well, it isn't necessary, as he puts it, to "grab the reader by the throat". And this note:

"For instance, at least 7 openings in the SEFPC involve burnt and/or rotting flesh."

Worth a look.

caw

[jenstrikesagain]

I'm proud to say there wasn't any rotting flesh in mine, though there was a delicate reference to an accidental sexual encounter with the gearshift of a Toyota pickup.

[Devil Ledbetter]

That's interesting. There was a thread where we posted our openers here a while back (first paras, I think), and for a while I kept a running tally of dead bodies. I got some argument for pointing out how seldom one encounters a dead body IRL.

[Andrhia]

I have to say, his comments made me feel a little better about my own opening. :) I don't think I'll win, but the experience has certainly been educational.

[Shweta]

On the one hand, I should have sent mine in. On the other hand, it starts with a dead body :D

[narnia]

I make no apologies for my burnt flesh! :D My MC has an overactive imagination and imagines she is smelling it while waiting to have her eyeballs lasered, so it fits into her 'makeup' and the situation.

And he did follow that statement with, "To be sure, this can be done well.", although I am fairly certain I won't be falling into that category... :cry:

[Elladog]

There was a dead body in mine, so I guess that's it for me.
Interesting!

[DeadlyAccurate]

I went with a talking animal this time around. No dead bodies.

[KTC]

On the other hand. I just wanted to say on the other hand. Shweta gave me such a need to say on the other hand. On the other hand, I'm on my way over to his blog right now to read the post. Thanks.

[Shweta]

How many hands do you have, Kevin? Am I gonna have to redesign that dress?

[KTC]

Oh, Shweta. Ganesha/Uma in a dress and there are plenty of hands to go around.


I enjoyed Nathan's post. For me, the story in my head is the one that comes out...sometimes it begins full blow up and sometimes it's slow. I'm glad he made it clear that both are acceptable.

[davids]

Shit I am glad I started out with a half Jewish half Apache FBI agent who was not dead!

[KTC]

Lobsters should never inhale.

[maestrowork]

Lobster should never be impaled.

[KTC]

Lobster should never be impaled.

Have you never had lobster on a cracker...with those pretty coloured toothpicks?

[CaroGirl]

Have you never had lobster on a cracker...with those pretty coloured toothpicks?
If you put the lobster on a cracker you don't need the toothpicks. Honestly. Can I not take you anywhere?

[ChaosTitan]

There was a dead body in mine, so I guess that's it for me.
Interesting!

Mine has a formerly-dead, now-alive body in it.

I wonder how that ranks? :D

[KTC]

If you put the lobster on a cracker you don't need the toothpicks. Honestly. Can I not take you anywhere?

If it is layered with accoutrements, yes...you still need the toothpick, Missy.

[KTC]

I did notice all the bodies and such. A little taken aback, but quite a few of the entries were not in my reading genre...so I am a little out of the loop there. I learned quite a bit from reading all the entries. I was going to chart the genres, but didn't. It would be interesting to see that chart.

[akiwiguy]

Interesting quote...

One of the most difficult things is the first paragraph. I have spent many months on a first paragraph and once I get it, the rest comes very easily. In the first paragraph you solve most of the problems of your book. The theme is defined, the style, the tone.

Garbriel Garcia Marquez

[Devil Ledbetter]

Mine has a formerly-dead, now-alive body in it.

I wonder how that ranks? :D
Nathan seemed more concerned with whether the body reeked.

[Shady Lane]

Are you kidding?? The toothpick will shatter the cracker.

GOD, KTC.

[Esopha]

Nathan seemed more concerned with whether the body reeked.

BO is a no-go.

:D

[paprikapink]

I think the idea is that if your story begins with a reeking burning rotting body, so be it: that's how your story begins. Write it well.

But don't stick a body like that into your story just to make a dramatic entrance and don't rush the body to the front for the same reason.

[Perks]

Interesting quote...

One of the most difficult things is the first paragraph. I have spent many months on a first paragraph and once I get it, the rest comes very easily. In the first paragraph you solve most of the problems of your book. The theme is defined, the style, the tone.

Garbriel Garcia MarquezHuh. That is a very interesting quote and I find it to be very true, so far, for the things I write.

[davids]

Kevin Ray what have you guys got agains a half Jewish half Apache FBI agent? Just because he is hard shelled and unimpaleable-and I inhale-sheesh talk about predjewdiced carrots!!!!

Oh and I read both your posts and they were eggcellentee-tight right well written-and I had just eggshaled-HIC!!!!

[maestrowork]

butter

[Stew21]

Mine starts slow. No dead bodies, no rotting flesh - but there is a ghost in the bathroom mirror talking to my MC - does he count as dead?

:)

[Sage]

I was going to say that mine doesn't start with a dead body, but then I realized it did. Just goes to show you how unimportant the average dead body is to my MC.

[astonwest]

I, too, have a dead body in my opening scene, but not rotting or burnt (homemade arrow through the throat)...

[Sage]

I, too, have a dead body in my opening scene, but not rotting or burnt (homemade arrow through the throat)...
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention it wasn't rotting/burnt. The character was newly dead by heart attack

[Shady Lane]

Mine's not exactly the dead body type...

[ChaosTitan]

All this talk of rotting, burnt bodies makes me miss Bones... :(

[BiggerBoat]

Interesting quote...

One of the most difficult things is the first paragraph. I have spent many months on a first paragraph and once I get it, the rest comes very easily. In the first paragraph you solve most of the problems of your book. The theme is defined, the style, the tone.

Garbriel Garcia Marquez

I don't think my first paragraphs can handle that sort of pressure.

----

"Hello there, reader," my first paragraph says. "Here I am. Feel free to jump right into the story."

"Ah, excellent. So what's the theme of this novel?"

"Well, the theme....I'm not sure, really. I think that's a few pages in. Something about the sins of a father passed to a son or some-such. Really good stuff. I'm sure you'll enjoy it."

"Ah. Too bad," the reader says. "Well, how about tone and style?"

"Well, honestly, I'm meant to be more evocative. I'm just the start you know."

"Uh-huh."

"I'm just two sentences. What do you want from me?"

"No, sorry. That's all right. You're a perfectly serviceable first paragraph. I especially like the bit about the corpse."

"Yeah. Sod off."

[Kryianna]

Was he specific about human bodies? I had a dead dragon at the beginning of mine.

[Nathan Bransford]

I think the idea is that if your story begins with a reeking burning rotting body, so be it: that's how your story begins. Write it well.

But don't stick a body like that into your story just to make a dramatic entrance and don't rush the body to the front for the same reason.

Hi everyone, thanks so much for all the great comments on the post today. I think paprikapink says it all. If it's well written, it's well written. I'm not opposed to bodies (after all, I represent suspense), but is the rotting, festering, smelly body there because it's part of the plot and necessary or because it's just trying to shock? If it's the latter it's a hollow reading experience.

[Shady Lane]

Nathan, I'm surprised you have time to breathe, not to mention stop by and chat with us.

[reigningcatsndogs]

I read through a ton of the entries today, and my eyeballs feel like they're going to fall out. I have new appreciation for the whole submission process!! Thanks!

[Danger Jane]

No dead bodies here, and I was getting [irrationally] worried because it's kind of the slow opening. Good post, for allaying my fears :D

[Haphazard]

I think I lose here. Haha.

[twnkltoz]

No bodies in mine, just a noted lack of donuts. Which is nearly as tragic. More, depending on the body.

[jenstrikesagain]

Okay, my next WIP is gonna start out with a four handed half-Cherokee FBI agent having laser eye surgery while eating burnt lobster on a cracker after accidental sex with the gearshift of a Toyota pickup.

Going to take my meds now.

[Don Allen]

Okay, my next WIP is gonna start out with a four handed half-Cherokee FBI agent having laser eye surgery while eating burnt lobster on a cracker after accidental sex with the gearshift of a Toyota pickup.

Going to take my meds now.


Didn't they make that into a movie.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Okay, my next WIP is gonna start out with ... accidental sex with the gearshift of a Toyota pickup.
Three-on-the-Tree, or a floor mount?

Enquiring minds and alla that...

[KTC]

All this talk of rotting, burnt bodies makes me miss Bones... :(


Makes me hungry.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Mine is going to start out with a half-dozen passive sentences and a head hop, just like Atonement.:Huh:

[IdiotsRUs]

I had the smell of burning flesh. My bad, but that's what's happens when you murder a whole town by burning them. He's not a nice chappie.

At least the dead bodies were only implied....

[NeuroFizz]

Mine is more like...is there going to be a dead body? Don't know if it works, but it's a centerpiece of the story.

[The Grump]

Hey, did anyone else notice how many various permutations of fantasy turned up in the submissions? ... Now if only there were a proportional number of publishers. *sigh*

In case you're wondering: yes, I read through all of them (600+) and yes, I submitted a fantasy.

[NeuroFizz]

I think we had a survey on genre a while back, and if I remember correctly, fantasy blew the others away in terms of numbers of writers in that area.

[Shadow_Ferret]

My dead body doesn't show up until the 5th chapter.

[NeuroFizz]

...thus explaining the smell of it.

[Esopha]

I was going to say that mine doesn't start with a dead body, but then I realized it did. Just goes to show you how unimportant the average dead body is to my MC.

Same with me. I was all proud of myself and then I realized that everyone in my entry is dead and stays dead for the rest of the novel.

[Doug Johnson]

In case you're wondering: yes, I read through all of them (600+)

Which ones did you like?

[Appalachian Writer]

I simply hint at the existence of three dead bodies in mine. Does a hint count?

[Shadow_Ferret]

In case you're wondering: yes, I read through all of them (600+) and yes, I submitted a fantasy.Wow. Already? Isn't that something like 300,000 words (or is my math off)? That would take me a couple months.

[Alexandra Little]

I simply hint at the existence of three dead bodies in mine. Does a hint count?

My first dead body is in the first second third fourth fifth sixth holy crap, where are my dead bodies?
I can't write a story without a dead body in it! What's happening to me?!?!

*checks manuscript*

wait, wait---chapter ten has a dead body, and chapter....chapter....holy crap, even the climax doesn't have a dead body, just an unconscious body.

I can't write a novel without at least five dead people in it. What's happening to me?

[The Grump]

Doug and Ferret ... I said I read through them, I did not read them carefully and considerately ... except for maybe 20 or so that caught my attention. (Does that mean I acted like an agent?) No, I don't remember them.

Speed reading is helpful ... especially when your budget is limited and there are all those tempting books trying to entice your interest. No, I don't read a book standing in the ailse, but I do skim the first chapters and somewhere in the middle to see if the book is interesting and the writer doesn't raise factual questions which I know aren't true. Sloppy research annoys me.

Actually, Doug made me feel like I flunked eighth grade English. "No teacher I don't remember which side of MC's face the sun was shining on when he heard the loon." (Wait a minute. That question was on a college level anthropology test.) ...

[twnkltoz]

I think I"ll start my next book with, "Don't you hate dead bodies?" Or, perhaps, "Don't you hate rhetorical questions?" Or, "Don't you hate rhetorical questions about dead bodies?"

The posssibilities are limited, but amusing.

[Nathan Bransford]

Which ones did you like?

I'd be curious to know which ones were The Grump's favorites as well (or anyone else's)! I've read through all of them and put together my list, Holly and I are going to work over the weekend to whittle it down. But it's always interesting to hear what other people think, and which ones work for them.

[paprikapink]

I haven't read all of them, just skimmed -- but jjdebenedictis's blew my socks right off! That's the one with the cart-horse accident...you know.

[Shady Lane]

Nathan, I can't believe you've gone through them so quickly. I was expecting to wait for weeks. Can't wait to see your choices!

[Nathan Bransford]

Nathan, I can't believe you've gone through them so quickly. I was expecting to wait for weeks. Can't wait to see your choices!

It was really interesting to read the first pages -- I've often gotten anonymous comments on my blog that a better method for the query process would be for everyone to submit first pages. I definitely think there's something to that, since no one can hide behind a first page. It shows your writing ability like nothing else. At the same time, I'm so used to reading queries, and they're designed to ease you into the project, so I still prefer that method.

It was pretty exhausting reading the first pages, but very very interesting.

[Devil Ledbetter]

Now I'm getting excited! :D I can't wait to see the finalists.

Thanks for doing this, Nathan.

[Shady Lane]

Yes, definitely thank you.

[Judg]

I didn't enter. It felt too much like piling on.

[Nathan Bransford]

I didn't enter. It felt too much like piling on.

You should have! You would have only been 1/675th of my week reading first pages. I wouldn't have minded! Swear!

[Judg]

LOL! I'll send it in with the query in about six months. How's that? Competing for the prize of representation.

[Nathan Bransford]

LOL! I'll send it in with the query in about six months. How's that? Competing for the prize of representation.

Works for me!

[Judg]

OK, you're on. ;)

Let's see. First I have to start with a rhetorical question, right? Then tell you how fantastic my book is and how you would be a fool to turn down the opportunity of making so much money off of me, so of course you won't.

And my dead body is still alive on page 1. Is that going to cause problems?

[Polenth]

OK, you're on. ;)

Let's see. First I have to start with a rhetorical question, right? Then tell you how fantastic my book is and how you would be a fool to turn down the opportunity of making so much money off of me, so of course you won't.

And my dead body is still alive on page 1. Is that going to cause problems?

I think you're lacking the crazy stalker attitude there. You haven't claimed to go to his high school or live next door to him. Don't forget to end the letter with 'Snuggles'. Nathan said he'd notice that.

[Judg]

Thank you so much Polenth. These things should just be intuitive, but I'm sometimes socially inept.

[Raphee]

You should have! You would have only been 1/675th of my week reading first pages. I wouldn't have minded! Swear!

Nathan,
I didnt enter for the same reason; and because I have a slow opening. I thought I'd get murdered by the 'action/dead body' entries. Then I read your blog on how you looked for writing ability and not corpses; and I banged my head. Still hurts.
So may I have the same privelege of querying you with a first page.

[Nakhlasmoke]

So this been very interesting reading, and actually made me realise I need to get to my dead body sooner.

Um yes. I said sooner. I think the voice of my story is okay, but I do meander a bit before I hit the crunch (Fact: crunch didn't make it into the first 500 words) so this has been a valuable learning experience.

*sigh* This is what happens if you were brought up on books like Wizard Of Earthsea...

[L M Ashton]

I found out about the contest mere hours before the deadline, so of course, I promptly looked at my beginning and changed it. Thing is, there wasn't enough time for it to sit and for me to figure out if I liked it or not, and as it turns out, I don't. Thanks to the comments in the threads and Nathan's blog entry on beginnings, I have a clearer idea of what my opening needs to look like. Which means my entry is now, in essence, null and void. :)

But without the contest, I wouldn't have spent the time thinking about it as clearly as I have, so...


And count me in on the many who appreciate you doing this for us poor shmucks readers. :)

[Polenth]

I found out about the contest mere hours before the deadline, so of course, I promptly looked at my beginning and changed it. Thing is, there wasn't enough time for it to sit and for me to figure out if I liked it or not, and as it turns out, I don't. Thanks to the comments in the threads and Nathan's blog entry on beginnings, I have a clearer idea of what my opening needs to look like. Which means my entry is now, in essence, null and void. :)

My entry is a first page for a non-existent middle grade novel, so if a re-write makes your entry null and void, I don't know where that places mine... ;)

One interesting thing I did discover is that my page happened to be aimed at the right age range, according to Word's readability statistics. I didn't check as I wrote it (or before I submitted it). So I learnt I'm like a Word readability statistics tool. Yay!

[twnkltoz]

I didn't expect to win when I entered, but I've found the critiques from various readers quite valuable.

[dmytryp]

Well, mine is an aftermath of a battle, so there are lots of dead bodies http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[OverTheHills&FarAway]

When deciding which opening to enter, I specifically avoided the one that opens with a double murder, because I figured there'd be a glut of dead bodies already.

So instead I entered a teenager dyeing his hair funny colors. It certainly stands out, but I hope it grabs the reader/agent enough. Those murders sure are enticing...

(And yea, the murders are the inciting incident. Completely essential to the plot. Curses)

[reigningcatsndogs]

I entered, but also didn't have the high-energy butt-kicking opening, and so I figured it was just an exercise. Now I know it was because I went back and re-read again (for about the twentieth time) and found a typo!! I'm so embarrassed!! No matter how many times I read that stuff over, one always slips past!

(kicks herself for not reading it twenty-one times before hitting send!)

[Alexandra Little]

I didn't expect to win when I entered, but I've found the critiques from various readers quite valuable.

That's what I'm looking for--I just want the critiques.

And to win, but the critiques more ;)

[blacbird]

Well, mine is an aftermath of a battle, so there are lots of dead bodies http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif


I wonder if, in the larger context, Bransford isn't making notice of the fact that too many of the entries are about battles, fantasy wars, murders and mayhem in general.

caw

[~grace~]

One of the critiquers pointed out that the beginning of my YA fantasy sounds like the beginning of a bad romance with the female MC waiting for the male MC to come rescue her. Which isn't what I was going for at all. Sighhh...

I have realized though, completely independent of the contest, that the male MC isn't actually necessary to the story. So there's that problem solved, anyway.

And I do have a body, a coupla pages in...but in a good way.

[KTC]

I entered, but also didn't have the high-energy butt-kicking opening, and so I figured it was just an exercise. Now I know it was because I went back and re-read again (for about the twentieth time) and found a typo!! I'm so embarrassed!! No matter how many times I read that stuff over, one always slips past!

(kicks herself for not reading it twenty-one times before hitting send!)


Don't kick yourself, hun. I'll do it for you. That's what friends are for.

[Shweta]

Now I'm all freaked out about the dead body thing.
There's a murder... well, a killing... in my novel that sets off a spiral of racial hostility. And that's what the novel's about. So starting with the body seemed logical...

It's sort of a whydunnit. But. Fret!

[KTC]

Now I'm all freaked out about the dead body thing.
There's a murder... well, a killing... in my novel that sets off a spiral of racial hostility. And that's what the novel's about. So starting with the body seemed logical...

It's sort of a whydunnit. But. Fret!

I almost posted one of my other first pages. I have a novel finished where it opens with a huge fire. The accidentally started fire causes somebody else to start another fire...to cover up a dead body. So, my dead body doesn't come out until about page 40, but the fire on page one was my attempt to jump into the action. I didn't post that one and I was sure that was a mistake because he'd be looking for action catching. I'm glad he explained more about page ones.

[HeronW]

Bks 1,2,3 beginnings: Nearly beaten to death mother to be, hunting a deer nekkid, waking up in bed with the hand not yours...dead bodies come later. :}

[Nathan Bransford]

I want to clarify something -- nothing wrong with starting with a dead body if it's done right. The only problem arises when the writer clearly intends the dead body/murder/stench of rotting flesh to be shocking. You're not really going to shock the reader in the beginning, because the reader doesn't know the characters or the rules of the world. They don't know what's important yet, and let's face it, in today's pop culture, a murder or body is just not very shocking by itself -- it's only shocking if it comes at a key moment.

It's important to establish the world in the beginning and grab the reader through the quality of the writing, the well-drawn characters and the unique world rather than trying to grab them through shock or tricks. People sometimes try too hard to be overly clever, unique and/or shocking in the beginning rather than easing the reader into a world.

[otterman]

Nathan, if you're still there, I'm curious to know what your feelings are on first page dialogue. Should it be used sparingly? Should it be minimal and defer to character description? Can an effective beginning start with a characters speaking or does it confuse the reader since they don't know the characters?

[Nathan Bransford]

Nathan, if you're still there, I'm curious to know what your feelings are on first page dialogue. Should it be used sparingly? Should it be minimal and defer to character description? Can an effective beginning start with a characters speaking or does it confuse the reader since they don't know the characters?

Again, it all depends on how it's done, but I think the degree of difficulty goes up when there's dialogue in the beginning. It's sometimes tricky to follow conversations in the opening page because there's little grounding or context, so it's especially important to make sure the dialgoue reveals a lot about the unique characters who are speaking and is not superfluous or clever for the sake of being clever. If the dialogue is revealing about the characters it grounds the conversation and fulfills the purpose of the opening, which is to establish the characters, the world, and the plot. But there aren't many people who can write dialogue like that.

[KTC]

Who is John Galt?



(I'm curious, Nathan. What do you think of that first line? I sometimes look at it and think, 'man, that is such a cool beginning!' I have a ton of favourites, but that one is at the top for me. I'm just curious...what say you?)

[Nathan Bransford]

Who is John Galt?



(I'm curious, Nathan. What do you think of that first line? I sometimes look at it and think, 'man, that is such a cool beginning!' I have a ton of favourites, but that one is at the top for me. I'm just curious...what say you?)

It's a classic! It's an unexpected beginning because you don't expect the author to ask a question about the main character at the beginning -- almost like she wants you to figure it out for yourself, which speaks to her larger purpose and message with the book. Definitely one of the most classic openings.

[reigningcatsndogs]

Don't kick yourself, hun. I'll do it for you. That's what friends are for.
:D It's so comforting to know somebody is there for me!! :e2moon:

typos!! Geesh!:Headbang:

[Shweta]

I want to clarify something -- nothing wrong with starting with a dead body if it's done right. The only problem arises when the writer clearly intends the dead body/murder/stench of rotting flesh to be shocking. You're not really going to shock the reader in the beginning, because the reader doesn't know the characters or the rules of the world. They don't know what's important yet, and let's face it, in today's pop culture, a murder or body is just not very shocking by itself -- it's only shocking if it comes at a key moment.

Thanks for the clarification! :Hail:I'm working on establishing world, character, and situation at the beginning; the body's only there because, well, it's there. Which doesn't mean I have a good beginning yet, of course; I'm on draft 1, so I probably don't. But I'll stop fretting now and go back to plotting :)

[Sage]

I want to clarify something -- nothing wrong with starting with a dead body if it's done right. The only problem arises when the writer clearly intends the dead body/murder/stench of rotting flesh to be shocking. You're not really going to shock the reader in the beginning, because the reader doesn't know the characters or the rules of the world. They don't know what's important yet, and let's face it, in today's pop culture, a murder or body is just not very shocking by itself -- it's only shocking if it comes at a key moment.

It's important to establish the world in the beginning and grab the reader through the quality of the writing, the well-drawn characters and the unique world rather than trying to grab them through shock or tricks. People sometimes try too hard to be overly clever, unique and/or shocking in the beginning rather than easing the reader into a world.
And certainly, if a large percentage of books are suddenly starting with a dead body for shock value, it's not particularly shocking anymore, is it? ;)

[maestrowork]

I know Nathan talked about the rotting, stinking dead bodies. But the "shock and awe" tactic is common among new authors because they think that's the only way they can "hook" the agent among a sea of manuscripts. The fact is, you're not the only one who tries to shock and awe. And it's not limited to dead bodies: explosions, car chase, somebody getting murdered (outside of the mystery/suspense genre, which kind of demands somebody getting killed in the beginning), a crisis...

I agree with Nathan that if we try too hard to present some kind of crisis or "dead body/explosion/chase" in the beginning, we're setting up expectations -- the rest of the book needs to be bigger, louder, with more rotting bodies and bigger explosions. Also, we risk losing the audience because we haven't made them CARE about the characters yet. Where are we? Who are these people? Why do we care if they are in some kind of peril?

I think it's a balancing act between trying to get the attention of a reader who will only give you a few paragraphs to hook them, and trying to build a world of characters that they can actually sink their teeth into (not in a literal sense). To me, it comes down to the quality of writing, the pacing, and intrigue: Do we want to find out who these people are and what they're up to and what is going to happen next? Do we even care? With a book, we have the help of the jacket blurb to help us with the selection process -- that's half the battle... readers are going to be either interested or not based on your synopsis. Then the first page really is to SELL the rest of the book, promising a good time to be had, or something profound and interesting. It's not about how shocking it is or if the world ends in the first paragraph, although that can work, too, if that's your story and you have good writing to support it (and again, if you begin your book with the world ending on page 1, you'd better have something bigger, louder, better coming up for the next 300 pages).

And not all stories/genres involve the end of the world or epic battles. How are you going to hook the readers with a literary fiction? The same criteria apply, I believe. You can't bore them to death with a bunch of characters (that we know nothing of) sitting around doing nothing either. You build that world, show us something interesting about these characters (through their conflicts and action and reaction), and through the quality of the writing, promising them something worthwhile is in the next few hundred pages.

[KTC]

It's a classic! It's an unexpected beginning because you don't expect the author to ask a question about the main character at the beginning -- almost like she wants you to figure it out for yourself, which speaks to her larger purpose and message with the book. Definitely one of the most classic openings.


Thanks for humoring me. I think that's why I like it. It made me want to find out.

[KTC]

:D It's so comforting to know somebody is there for me!! :e2moon:

typos!! Geesh!:Headbang:


I gotcher backside.

[maestrowork]

Thanks for humoring me. I think that's why I like it. It made me want to find out.

It's about intrigue. That opening line poses a question and promises something (we're going to find out who John Galt is and what happens to him or what he does) but again, the rest of the book must hold up. If you open the book with a question, you need to deliver the answer to the question relatively quickly.

[KTC]

It's about intrigue. That opening line poses a question and promises something (we're going to find out who John Galt is and what happens to him or what he does) but again, the rest of the book must hold up. If you open the book with a question, you need to deliver the answer to the question relatively quickly.


Oh, but see...she doesn't answer that question until near the end of the novel. And it's a 1,000 page novel.

[paprikapink]

For every rule, turn, turn, turn,
There is a .....

Uh, sorry. Wrong song.

[maestrowork]

Oh, but see...she doesn't answer that question until near the end of the novel. And it's a 1,000 page novel.

This may not work in "today's" market, where attention span is short, and not when you are a new author. Established writers can write a phone book and their fans will still read it. If you pose a question in your opening line, it's expected to be at least partially answered by the end of the chapter, I think. I mean, it's like having this opening line:

"Would Sweeney Todd prevail?"

Sure it's intrigue, but the line is meaningless if you need to read the whole story to get the answer to that question. At least that's how I feel about it as a reader. Call me impatient. ;) (I wouldn't read a 1000-page novel to begin with anyway).

Now, if the writing is good and there's a lot of interesting things going on in between, I probably won't mind. The fact is, by the end of the book, I would probably have already forgotten the first line, that there was a question waiting to be answered all this time.

[Bufty]

I can't accept that a meaningless question-type or other 'incomplete' opening line can be regarded as 'brilliant' in isolation.

If the rest of the book is dull, I suspect the opening line wanders into infinity and is forgotten along with the rest of the narrative.

Surely it's only good with hindsight and if the rest of the story is memorable.

[Linton Robinson]

Not to naysay, because it's always nice to get some insight into how agents alleged minds work, but....

Who is this guy, that be cognizant of his advice? He's very new, has place a few mediocre books in mid lists. If he wasn't running that berserk contest, would you know his name? Much less take his advice because he's got net buzz and blog?

The whole "grab the agent's attention" thing is not the best way to create a good book. But there it is...or so they say. So we have a guy who is pulling this wild publicity stunt to get books to look at...and he's telling us about attention-grabbing?

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?

[paprikapink]

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?

It's a good question, Linton. We each have to answer it for ourselves. Reading Nathan's blog, and the responses to him from people around here (the Cooler) whose opinions I have come to respect over the years, the answer for me is an emphatic yes, this is a good source of information/perspective/news....

[Devil Ledbetter]

Not to naysay, because it's always nice to get some insight into how agents alleged minds work, but....

Who is this guy, that be cognizant of his advice? He's very new, has place a few mediocre books in mid lists. If he wasn't running that berserk contest, would you know his name? Much less take his advice because he's got net buzz and blog?

The whole "grab the agent's attention" thing is not the best way to create a good book. But there it is...or so they say. So we have a guy who is pulling this wild publicity stunt to get books to look at...and he's telling us about attention-grabbing?

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?Yes, I had heard of him well before this "berserk" contest, and had spent a lot of time reading his intelligent and thoughtful blog. Not only does he go out of his way to assist unpublished writers, he's a highly respected literary agent, regardless of where his books fall on the sales lists.

I see that you're new here. Welcome to AW.

[a_sharp]

Not to naysay, because it's always nice to get some insight into how agents alleged minds work, but....

Who is this guy, that be cognizant of his advice? He's very new, has place a few mediocre books in mid lists. If he wasn't running that berserk contest, would you know his name? Much less take his advice because he's got net buzz and blog?

The whole "grab the agent's attention" thing is not the best way to create a good book. But there it is...or so they say. So we have a guy who is pulling this wild publicity stunt to get books to look at...and he's telling us about attention-grabbing?

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?

Linton, I think the point of it is to get input from someone besides our unpublished selves. Nathan has committed a great deal of his time and knowledge to members here. That's one helluva lot more than you get from 99% of the agents out in the publishing world. They are all nice people, dedicated to writers, and most of them are interested in new voices. But very few go the extra mile to reach wannabes the way Nathan does. The other venue is conferences, where you're lucky to get face time with anyone, and if you do, it's brief. I think we're very lucky to have someone in the business taking our load on top of his regular business.

[KTC]

Welcome to AW, Linton. I hope you enjoy your experience here.

Yes, I think we're lucky that Nathan offered to carry out something like this. It's a learning experience. I don't think he needs publicity. He's a respected agent and he's made himself available to the everyday writer. I feel that I have learned from this experience. And if you go to his blog, there is a lot of great information regarding queries, etc.

[Nathan Bransford]

Not to naysay, because it's always nice to get some insight into how agents alleged minds work, but....

Who is this guy, that be cognizant of his advice? He's very new, has place a few mediocre books in mid lists. If he wasn't running that berserk contest, would you know his name? Much less take his advice because he's got net buzz and blog?

The whole "grab the agent's attention" thing is not the best way to create a good book. But there it is...or so they say. So we have a guy who is pulling this wild publicity stunt to get books to look at...and he's telling us about attention-grabbing?

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?

Hi Linton, and welcome to the board. I'm 27 years old, and in order to become a literary agent it takes a two-three year apprenticeship working as an assistant... so you can do the math. I don't think I've ever tried to hide the fact that I'm a young agent who is actively trying to grow his list, and I've worked extremely hard to establish myself (it would be news to me and my clients to learn that their books are mediocre, just as it would be news to Dell, Free Press, etc. that they are "mid-list"). I work for Curtis Brown, one of the most reputable and distinguished agencies in New York, and I don't have to blog or give my time on message boards or field questions (it's Sunday noon here -- I'm posting here during ostensible free time, off to speak to a writer's group this afternoon in lieu of watching the Super Bowl), but it's something I choose to do so I can give back to the writing community and so that people get to know me and my style and my personality so they can decide if I'm someone they would want to work with.

So if you're looking for an agent with a twenty year pedigree and a long list of bestselling clients, I'm not that guy. I don't pretend to be that guy. But I work for a great agency, I feel like I've done a lot relative to how long I've been in the business, and ultimately everyone should decide for themselves who they want to work with, and whose advice they should trust. If I'm not your guy I'm not your guy.

And I've crossed you off my list. Kidding. Sort of.

[Bufty]

Great post, Nathan! Wish I wrote the kind of stuff you would be interested in.

[davids]

YES BUFFMAN A FINE POST-ACTUALLY I JUST DID IT FOR THE FUN OF IT AND IF IT HELPS SOME KIDDOS HERE OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER-GOOD NO YA MR. BRANSFORD. MY KID WAS KIND OF A DOOGIE HOWSER-IF THAT IS HOW CHA SPELLS IT AND FUNNY-REGARDLESS OF HIS YOUTH FOLKS DID NOT SEEM TO MIND WHEN HE HELPED EM OUT-KIDS SPECIALLY!

ANYWAY I THINK THAT YOUR CLIENTS ARE PRETTY HAPPY IT WOULD SEEM AND CERTAINLY NOT MIDDLE BIDDLE WHO CARES WRITERS-BEING CRUSTY AND OLDER'N DIRT AND HAVING THE BUFFSTER AS A BUD-WE SALUTE YOU YOUNG MAN-SHIT DOES THIS MEAN? NO IT CAN'T! WELL IT MIGHT? THEN AGAIN?!?! SEEMS LIKE YOU ARE HAVING A BIT OF FUN IN AN OTHERWISE EGGSTREMELY CONTENTIOUS AND DARK LITERERARY WOILD MR. BRANSFORD-NICE TO SEE THAT YES INDEEDY IT IS-KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK AND NEVER FORGET THE FUN. THAT MEANS WHEN YOU ARE ALL SAGE LIKE AND ELDERLY AND HAVE ALL THOSE BEST SELLER FOLKS UNDER YER WING THAT YOU STAY AS YOU ARE-EAGER TO LEARN-WILLING TO SHARE-WILLING TO HELP-AND ABOVE ALL-WILLING TO HAVE A LAUGH AND A GIGGLE AND WORK IN A WORLD WHICH YOU SO OBVIOUSLY ENJOY THE HELL OUT OF-LOVE EL LOBSTERINO!!!

YES YES NATHAN I KNOW I KNOW I DO GO ON-GET TO THE POINT AND ALL THAT-THROW OUT THE HOOK-YES YES I KNOW I KNOW!!!! MOST OF THE KIDDOS HERE AND ABOUT JUST PUT UP WITH ME VERBOSITEEISCIOSNESS AND SILLINIESS AND HAVE A GIGGLE ABOUT IT!!!!

[Will Lavender]

Hi Linton, and welcome to the board. I'm 27 years old, and in order to become a literary agent it takes a two-three year apprenticeship working as an assistant... so you can do the math. I don't think I've ever tried to hide the fact that I'm a young agent who is actively trying to grow his list, and I've worked extremely hard to establish myself (it would be news to me and my clients to learn that their books are mediocre, just as it would be news to Dell, Free Press, etc. that they are "mid-list"). I work for Curtis Brown, one of the most reputable and distinguished agencies in New York, and I don't have to blog or give my time on message boards or field questions (it's Sunday noon here -- I'm posting here during ostensible free time, off to speak to a writer's group this afternoon in lieu of watching the Super Bowl), but it's something I choose to do so I can give back to the writing community and so that people get to know me and my style and my personality so they can decide if I'm someone they would want to work with.

So if you're looking for an agent with a twenty year pedigree and a long list of bestselling clients, I'm not that guy. I don't pretend to be that guy. But I work for a great agency, I feel like I've done a lot relative to how long I've been in the business, and ultimately everyone should decide for themselves who they want to work with, and whose advice they should trust. If I'm not your guy I'm not your guy.

And I've crossed you off my list. Kidding. Sort of.

Good post, Nathan.

[Stew21]

Not to naysay, because it's always nice to get some insight into how agents alleged minds work, but....

Who is this guy, that be cognizant of his advice? He's very new, has place a few mediocre books in mid lists. If he wasn't running that berserk contest, would you know his name? Much less take his advice because he's got net buzz and blog?

The whole "grab the agent's attention" thing is not the best way to create a good book. But there it is...or so they say. So we have a guy who is pulling this wild publicity stunt to get books to look at...and he's telling us about attention-grabbing?

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?

Let's see: proven sales, works for a reputable, very well respected agency, has been answering questions here for over a year, (even got our rarely bestowed "Absolute Sage" title).

He has offered a great deal of insight to writers here and on his blog.

Nathan is a good source of information.

He has put on several contests. He is not saying that beginnings are the only important things in a story. Not even close. Read his blog to learn more.

And yes. I knew his name long before this "berserk" contest - which I have to say I have learned a great deal from.

Welcome to AW.

[Sage]

Wow, Nathan, being 27 myself, I have even more respect for you knowing that you've become such a successful agent already. And thank you for the time you spend answering questions here and the time you spend sharing information with writers on your blog.

[justme]

Hi Linton, and welcome to the board. I'm 27 years old, and in order to become a literary agent it takes a two-three year apprenticeship working as an assistant... so you can do the math. I don't think I've ever tried to hide the fact that I'm a young agent who is actively trying to grow his list, and I've worked extremely hard to establish myself (it would be news to me and my clients to learn that their books are mediocre, just as it would be news to Dell, Free Press, etc. that they are "mid-list"). I work for Curtis Brown, one of the most reputable and distinguished agencies in New York, and I don't have to blog or give my time on message boards or field questions (it's Sunday noon here -- I'm posting here during ostensible free time, off to speak to a writer's group this afternoon in lieu of watching the Super Bowl), but it's something I choose to do so I can give back to the writing community and so that people get to know me and my style and my personality so they can decide if I'm someone they would want to work with.

So if you're looking for an agent with a twenty year pedigree and a long list of bestselling clients, I'm not that guy. I don't pretend to be that guy. But I work for a great agency, I feel like I've done a lot relative to how long I've been in the business, and ultimately everyone should decide for themselves who they want to work with, and whose advice they should trust. If I'm not your guy I'm not your guy.

And I've crossed you off my list. Kidding. Sort of.

Great response, Nathan!

[Doug Johnson]

I'd be curious to know which ones were The Grump's favorites as well (or anyone else's)

Since you asked, I only looked at about 50 or 60 openings but the only two that I liked were the "vampire killer mother" and of the "does scummy work for Congress people" characters. Both openings built suspense, but I lost interest in both when the writers bluntly stated what was unusual about their characters: "vampire killer mother" and "does scummy work for Congress people." From which I learned that waiting until the bottom of the first page to drop "the dead body" into the scene doesn't work either. You need to keep building the suspense.

PS: If I mischaracterized your characters I apologize, but they were the only two that I remembered, so please take the fact that I remembered as a compliment.

[Little Red Barn]

Not to naysay, because it's always nice to get some insight into how agents alleged minds work, but....

Who is this guy, that be cognizant of his advice? He's very new, has place a few mediocre books in mid lists. If he wasn't running that berserk contest, would you know his name? Much less take his advice because he's got net buzz and blog?

The whole "grab the agent's attention" thing is not the best way to create a good book. But there it is...or so they say. So we have a guy who is pulling this wild publicity stunt to get books to look at...and he's telling us about attention-grabbing?

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?
Who is Nathan? He is a very valuable--generous--respected member of our community who gives freely of his time and talent.

I hope you'll remember that, now Welcome to AW a community where we learn and grow and if we're very lucky, we get a Nathan.

[Linton Robinson]

Like I said, it's nice to get perspective from agents and few give anything out. It's nice to know that Nathan has been posting here and I appreciate the fact he does so.

I don't think that's incompatible with what I'm saying. I agree about the burning issue of burning flesh.

Crossed me off your list???? Just for that, I'm not going to enter my piece "Naked Burning Incest Flesh" in your contest.

[Stew21]

Like I said, it's nice to get perspective from agents and few give anything out. It's nice to know that Nathan has been posting here and I appreciate the fact he does so.

I don't think that's incompatible with what I'm saying. I agree about the burning issue of burning flesh.

Crossed me off your list???? Just for that, I'm not going to enter my piece "Naked Burning Incest Flesh" in your contest.


You don't think it's incompatible with what you said?
Not to naysay, because it's always nice to get some insight into how agents alleged minds work, but....

Who is this guy, that be cognizant of his advice? He's very new, has place a few mediocre books in mid lists. If he wasn't running that berserk contest, would you know his name? Much less take his advice because he's got net buzz and blog?

The whole "grab the agent's attention" thing is not the best way to create a good book. But there it is...or so they say. So we have a guy who is pulling this wild publicity stunt to get books to look at...and he's telling us about attention-grabbing?

Not to say he's right or wrong on anything he might say. Just...is this a good source of information?





If you researched at all regarding this agent you would find a sales record, while working at a very reputable agency. Every agent will tell you that they are just one agent, and like everyone else, their tastes vary. He gives us one perspective which is as useful as any one agent could give.

And regards to his crossing you off (he did say he was mostly kidding)- you called the books he represents mediocre.(!) You obviously are not a good fit for this agent if you don't find his sales more than mediocre. Your tastes aren't compatible.

I don't believe anything you said especially as regards the "attention-grabbing" gimmick of a contest were accurate at all. He did us a FAVOR by putting on that contest, and all the contests he puts on for that matter.

If he gets his name out to the writing community, and finds a good author or two while he's at it, then I consider it an innovative use of his time.
As for the "frenzy" - we were all thrilled to be participating in a contest together where we would all learn so much - and that Nathan stops by to chat with us about it is a bonus. We had a lot of fun this last week through this contest. Community building, skill building, knowledge building experience.


Now can you please stop insulting one of our respected Absolute Sages, please?

[mada]

I don't believe anything you said especially as regards the "attention-grabbing" gimmick of a contest were accurate at all. He did us a FAVOR by putting on that contest, and all the contests he puts on for that matter.

If he gets his name out to the writing community, and finds a good author or two while he's at it, then I consider it an innovative use of his time.
As for the "frenzy" - we were all thrilled to be participating in a contest together where we would all learn so much - and that Nathan stops by to chat with us about it is a bonus. We had a lot of fun this last week through this contest. Community building, skill building, knowledge building experience.


I think his "gimmick" was an amazing asset to the writing community, even to many who weren't part of the 675 entries. The frenzy created is what made me, a writer who is still in her infancy, go to his blog and see what he had to say. I think what he did was great and I can't wait until the day when I feel confident enough to enter one of his contests.

[Linton Robinson]

I'm rather surprised I'm still being commented on here. So I'll say something more.


I wasn't aware that Nathan was a poster on this board. If I had, I wouldn't have said anything about him. There's a place there for thinking, "So it's okay to say things about the industry, but not if they post on AW?" but basically I am not looking to insult or cause hard feelings. Nor to upset people here by mentioning somebody you know and like.

Also, my comments were offhand and mostly spurred by two things, one being just having spent a few hours on professional forums with a lot of industry people whose comments are ridiculous. (The market is looking for book about bicycle messengers or repairmen? We want to see a book featuring Mexican day laborers? There is no hope in selling a non-fiction book unless your are already a famous name?) I think it's well to weigh such advice.

Also, the whole contest thing struck me as a goofy gimmick. But, on second thought, in the current internet-driven age, with publishing falling apart at the seams, that's probably a hasty judgement. Posters may be quite right that it's brilliant and helpful.

But mostly, I had no intention of insulting somebody here, nor of fomenting discord and upset among the members. I apologize. Thanks for the level of response that I drew here. It speaks well for this group that it was so measured.

[paprikapink]

Welcome to the Cooler, Linton.

Anybody here remember that old saying about "treat all your co-workers as if you may someday work for them or they may someday work for you"? I've always found it to be a good way to keep from feeling too lordly or too humble....

Maybe for the Internet age it would be good to add "And treat all your posts as if every potential employee, employer, lover, dealer, doctor, lawyer, thief, search engine, or even Jumbotron may someday see it."

:)

[Stew21]

Ah, Linton. Even if Nathan didn't come here, it's hard to see an agent with a reputable firm and a sales record put down as not having enough experience (too young). At AW people spend a lot of time warning people about scam agents and publishers, and how to check if an agent is legit. Nathan is. I think I would have gotten a little twitchy even if he didn't post here just because he isn't an agent people need to be warned about.
Again, Welcome to AW and sorry we met you at the door in a mob.

[Linton Robinson]

Thanks, Stew.

The only thing further I want to say here is that I was not "warning" nor questioning whether he was a legitimate agent. Just sounding off on some misplaced peeves.
So, how about them Giants?