He said she said, who do I believe?

[stutteredtruth]

This is my first time posting a question. I happen to be fairly new to this whole joint or whatever you want to call it; so if my question has been asked I apologize.
My question is this, Since I haven't developed a God's gift to the written word ego yet, I'm wondering if I should put any faith in an individual's critique if they are a close friend or family member?
Obviously your average spouse or mother reader is not involved with publishing, but can you believe what they tell you about your writing?
What if someone who is neither a friend nor a family member, only a mere aquaintance with a little experience in the field says your good?

Do you take these opinions and try to publish your novel, or do you keep looking for someone to say you suck? Giving up hope when you finally hear those golden words?

[IceCreamEmpress]

The response to any novel manuscript is NEVER "It's perfect! Don't change a thing!" NEVER.

The response to any novel manuscript is very very rarely "You're hopeless. Stop doing this." I'm going to assume (because it's statistically almost a certainty) that you're not hopeless, and that you shouldn't stop doing this.

Okay, then. What's the next step?

- Edit until you feel like you've got a solid draft.

Then either:

- Share with relatively objective readers (in a writer's group, here on Share Your Work, or on another critique site, or all three). "Relatively objective readers" here means "not your friends or family."

OR go right to

- Send to agents.

[melaniehoo]

One thing I've learned is if you have several people commenting, see where they all have problems. They may not explain it in the same way but if everyone stumbles on the same scenes, you should look more closely there.

If you get zero criticism, try posting in SYW for some non-biased feedback.

[DeleyanLee]

This is my first time posting a question. I happen to be fairly new to this whole joint or whatever you want to call it; so if my question has been asked I apologize.
My question is this, Since I haven't developed a God's gift to the written word ego yet, I'm wondering if I should put any faith in an individual's critique if they are a close friend or family member?
Obviously your average spouse or mother reader is not involved with publishing, but can you believe what they tell you about your writing?
What if someone who is neither a friend nor a family member, only a mere aquaintance with a little experience in the field says your good?

Do you take these opinions and try to publish your novel, or do you keep looking for someone to say you suck? Giving up hope when you finally hear those golden words?

Take everything with a sack of salt and measure it again a ruler of "Does this help me tell the story I wanted to tell, or not?" Those things that help you tell your own story, listen to. Those that strip the story to something unrecognizeable, bury deep in the offal from which it sprang.

When it all comes down to it, you're the only one who can really tell if the story on the page is the story you wanted to tell. And when you've reached that point, then send it out--and start writing the next one.

Good luck to you.

[Dreamer3702]

First I'm going to say wow. Just... wow. It seems like you've had a bad experience somewhere. Anyway,

Unless your friend or family member is good at editing (grammer, plot, characterization) and is willing to tell you the truth without worrying about hurting your feelings... then yes. By all means, use them as a beta.

What if someone who is neither a friend nor a family member, only a mere aquaintance with a little experience in the field says your good?


Honestly, it doesn't matter what anyone says about your novel other than the publishers, because they are the ones that buy work. I think you're getting to hung up on what the people around you think. Do your best and never stop writing. Like Ice said, get a solid draft, beta, and edit again. Send it to either an agent or publisher.

You might feel better after you learn more about the publishing world and how everything works. There is plenty of information around here.

[ClaudiaGray]

It all depends on the individual in question. There are close friends and relatives who will praise you to the skies only because they know you -- or tear you down for the same reason. There are also people close to you who might end up giving absolutely terrific advice. (Remember how Stephen King threw his first draft of Carrie into the trash? It was his wife who told him it was worth going on with -- and she was definitely right about that.)

As others here have said, get a cross-section of opinions and see what the consensus tells you.

[Smiling Ted]

Until you get to the agent/publisher phase, never rely on just one reader's opinion. Always get more than that.

[stutteredtruth]

First I'm going to say wow. Just... wow. It seems like you've had a bad experience somewhere.

No bad experience yet. Has anyone ever had a bad experience when they were told to hang up the pen and give it up?

[Dreamer3702]

No bad experience yet. Has anyone ever had a bad experience when they were told to hang up the pen and give it up?

Sorry I missinterpreted. You came off bitter... or maybe I'm projecting my mood? Either way, I have never been told to give it up. If someone ever had the audacity, I would first commend them for having the guts to say something and then promptly break his or hers coller bone. I didn't earn my black belt for nothing.

[CaroGirl]

In the end, you believe yourself. It's your story. If you've read a lot and worked at improving your writing, you'll see whatever truth lies in a critique. You might not see it at first. You might feel defensive. But, if it's a valid point, it'll haunt you and you'll eventually see the light.

Some critique points are useful. Some are useless. Some are wrong. Experience, knowing your story, and trusting yourself as writer will help you tell what's what.

[waylander]

Seek more opinions, preferably from people who know what they are talking about.
Try to find a writers group which contains some people who have actually published stuff recently, whether online or face-to-face.
And remember - take what you can use from any critique

[Charlie Horse]

Write. Let others read what you wrote. Learn. Repeat.

[Unfocused Me]

I think the Ice Cream Empress has it right -- if a beta reader doesn't point out real problems with your draft, you probably shouldn't use him/her as a beta. That doesn't mean you shouldn't let that person read your drafts; you may have other reasons for giving that person a draft (e.g., he/she is your patient and long-suffering spouse, and is entitled to hard evidence that you haven't simply churned out 300 pages of "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."), but you should not rely on that person as a beta reader. In any novel-length MS, there will be at least one grammatical error, at least one arguably awkward bit of dialogue; your beta reader should catch them. Don't be afraid to find another reader.

[veinglory]

I would suggest showing the work to someone who reads the genre and can respond intelligently and honestly. For my first book I used online critique exchange services for this. I tried a few people and got ones who made suggestions that made sense and on technical issues if I checked they had it right.

[job]

First off ... the purpose of your family is to say, "This is the greatest work since Hemingway. You're going to be a best seller. This is perfect."

Do not ask them to say anything else. Let them be your cheering section. Go elsewhere for crits.


Second ... Do you think the work is publish-worthy? Is it ready?
If you know it is, send it out to agents.
You are the best judge of whether it's ready.


Last. If you know the manuscript needs more work, take one of the excellent bits of advice above and find folks who can beta it or critique it.
Don't ask your family to do this. Find an objective third party.

[Judg]

It depends a lot on who they are. My husband gave a talk followed by a question and answer session lately and I was in attendance. The people hosting the talk are very nice, very positive people, so they gushed and thanked him profusely. When we got out in the car he asked me how he really did, because he knew I'm a rotten cheerleader. I won't sugarcoat things.

So I told him. Very slow, boring start, very strong finish.

If your relatives are the kind of people who are great cheerleaders, talk to them when you need a boost. And look for somebody who isn't a great cheerleader when you need to know how to improve.

As a general rule, relatives tend to be excessively positive. I am weird. But one of my sons will definitely be one of my beta readers (he is also weird). He won't say anything is good if it's not, and I know that he will be ruthless with sentimentality, clichés, and poor crafting. I also know that he will tell me what works, and with real enthusiasm if warranted. He is also a confirmed bookworm, so he will not be easily blown away.

My mother and sister may get to read my manuscript, but my mother will think it's wonderful because she thinks I am wonderful and that anything I do is wonderful, and my sister will think it's wonderful because she's not much of a reader and therefore easily impressed. Great for my morale, but it won't tell me much about what to really think of my writing.

[Atlantis]

No bad experience yet. Has anyone ever had a bad experience when they were told to hang up the pen and give it up?


Yep. A person on another website once told me that "I believe that people like singers, dancers, artists and yes, even writers, are born with talent. You were not. Don't quit your day job."


I was 14 at the time. I sulked for about a week.

[HeronW]

Critiques from family can be badly biased for or against you, they can also be more about what the family member wants you to write/do vs what you want. Find a beta reader within a group of writers, they're more likely to give helpful critiques.

[chevbrock]

Somebody read it and liked it, and that is always a great start, IMHO.

The trick is, does someone who knows something about writing, the genre, etc, like it? Here's where I, like many others, suggest you should post a bit on the SYW board.

It can be scary doing this, I know. But I haven't read one posted work yet that had a resounding chorus of "This sucks!" as replies. I, for one, when critting, will try and find something positive to comment on, even if it's just one line. I think most others are the same.

Do it. Do it. Do it! Right now! You'll be amazed at how much you learn! :)

[lostcheerio]

As a mother, I must say... never trust your mother. :) When she tells you that you're the next Faulkner, the next Nabokov -- she won't even be lying to make you feel good. She'll actually believe it! The most dangerous faulty opinion of all is the one that's delivered with deeply felt conviction. Hehehe. I already think my kid is the next Nabokov, and he's not even 9 yet.

[Atlantis]

As a mother, I must say... never trust your mother. :) When she tells you that you're the next Faulkner, the next Nabokov -- she won't even be lying to make you feel good. She'll actually believe it! The most dangerous faulty opinion of all is the one that's delivered with deeply felt conviction. Hehehe. I already think my kid is the next Nabokov, and he's not even 9 yet.

My Mum's like that. She's told me and some of her friends at work that she thinks I'm better then Steven King, Danielle Steel, Nora Roberts and fast on the track towards becoming the next JK Rowling...yeah...sure....

[L M Ashton]

Uh, not all mothers. Mine would think my writing was the worst stuff ever. If she actually read it, which she won't. Although this still falls back on "Never trust your mother" - that part I can agree with. :D

My husband is helping me edit, but he's also a writer (of the same genres, even) and he's helped me plot and develop the thing, so it's partly his baby. Plus he sees different things than I do, so it's exceedingly useful to have his input.

One of my brothers might end up being useful - I'll have to see if he's interested. He's not at all interested in polite fictions among family members, so no worries on that score, plus his genres of choice are the genres I write in - but then, it's also his books that influenced me towards these genres. :D And he reads voraciously, so he knows what works and what doesn't. Huh. Hadn't considered him before, but I think I'll send him a line. :) My other siblings, though, would be useless as beta readers. One of my nieces also writes in the same genres, also novels, so she might also prove to be useful when she's aged a bit - she's 17, so not fully grown into the mature writer bit. :)

It really depends on the family members. :)

[gp101]

I'm wondering if I should put any faith in an individual's critique if they are a close friend or family member?

No. They are probably impressed that there is the other side of you that likes to write. They may be impressed that someone they know may be capable of constructing a feww good chapters back-to-back. They will overlook your crumby chaps, trust me.



Obviously your average spouse or mother reader is not involved with publishing, but can you believe what they tell you about your writing?

No. Nyet. Nunca.



What if someone who is neither a friend nor a family member, only a mere aquaintance with a little experience in the field says your good?

Doesn't mean shit.

Unless they are willing to pub your book, or rep you, and guarantee you descent money, it don;'t mean shit. If, however, you hear similar thiings from several different people with some credentials, then you may be onto something. But one person's belief, unless they hold the purse strings, doesn't necessarily mean you've scored.



Do you take these opinions and try to publish your novel, or do you keep looking for someone to say you suck? Giving up hope when you finally hear those golden words?

Tell your friends and family "thank you" for your comments, then stop asking them for comments on future projects. Most of them won't want to hurt your feelings if they do feel you've written garbage. Get yourself some beta readers who are either voracious readers within your genre, or other writers on boards like this (say, in the SYW section) who will give you unbiased feedback. But unbiased still doesn't mean they're right. When you collect enough feedback, say a dozen readers, and certain problems or successes keep cropping up, then you can be reasonably sure that the consensus may be right about your writing.

[Bufty]

What does one do? One has faith in one's abilities, and if you're a journalist you must know when something is readable or not, but I see from your profile you hate writing...so..:Shrug:

This is my first time posting a question. I happen to be fairly new to this whole joint or whatever you want to call it; so if my question has been asked I apologize.
My question is this, Since I haven't developed a God's gift to the written word ego yet, I'm wondering if I should put any faith in an individual's critique if they are a close friend or family member?
Obviously your average spouse or mother reader is not involved with publishing, but can you believe what they tell you about your writing?
What if someone who is neither a friend nor a family member, only a mere aquaintance with a little experience in the field says your good?

Do you take these opinions and try to publish your novel, or do you keep looking for someone to say you suck? Giving up hope when you finally hear those golden words?

[EelKat]

Everybody has an opinion, not everybody is going to like your book. The problem is, how can you find out what they liked about it. After they have read it and tell you they "love it", through them for a loop by asking them WHY they liked it. Force them to detail what it was that was so good. Make them tell you which character they liked best and why; which event was the best in the book; if they could change one thing, what would it be.

Here's a fun way to test your test reader:

Intentionally add a boogus paragraph halfway through the book, that has a character saying somthing really nasty about the person who is reading... use their full name and say something really rotten that will totally flip their lid when they read it. If you do THIS and they tell you your story is perfect, than ask them, what they thought about what the character had said about them.

Funny thing about doing this is, that you often find out that they never really read it at all, and were just saying they liked it to not hurt your feelings. sheesh!

One thing you could do, is have a relative who is inclined to hate you, read it: say your ex-mother-in-law, or that cranky old uncle who hates everyone. They'd be less likly to tell you it's perfect.

I am lucky, in that I have 3 teenage brothers, who tell me exactly what they think of my work. If it's good, I know it, because they are quick to run every detail through a shreader and they actually set out to looking for things wrong with it. When they get done reading what I wrote, I end up with a whole list of complaints, everything from spelling errors to character changes. I call them "my editors". They look at my stories in: how can this be used as a video game story mode. It's weird, but by looking at the story and thinking of it as a video game, really does help you to edit your work.

My boyfriend on the other hand, is a good one for pulling the "character hates you trick"... several times he glows over how great my writing is, but than never knew his name was baddly mentioned in the script! I know I can't rely on his opinion because he'd tell me it was good even if I wrote the same word 50,000 times.

So, my advice to you: yes, have your friends and family read your work. Listen to what they have to say. Find out how much they really know about the story after reading it (to make sure that they actually read it!). Take everything they say with a grain of salt. And than take their advice or ignore their advice, by doing what feels best for you and your story.

[EelKat]

My Mum's like that. She's told me and some of her friends at work that she thinks I'm better then Steven King, Danielle Steel, Nora Roberts and fast on the track towards becoming the next JK Rowling...yeah...sure....


well, you know the thing about that is, that Stephen King had no faith in his writing when he started out and he threw all his manuscripts in the trash. It was his wife that fished Carrie out of the bottom of a trash can, retyped it up, and sent it out to publishers without telling him about it. So, sometimes your family really is telling the truth when they say you are good.

[Selcaby]

My mother's an English graduate and an enthusiastic reader (though not often in my genre). She used to work in publishing and is now a teacher, so she's used to being pedantic about writing, but she's not a confrontational type. A while ago I sent a chunk of my writing to my mother and a friend who writes in my genre, asking for constructive criticism. My mother came back with mostly positive comments. My friend sent me a long email with some serious criticisms which, after thinking about them, I decided were valid. With her permission I forwarded the email to my mother to see whether she agreed. The answer was, "Yes, she's got a point..."

So there you go. I thought I could trust her to be honest but, it appears, not entirely. Or maybe she just isn't experienced enough in the genre to know what she ought to expect. Or it's a case of not every flaw, even serious ones, being apparent to every reader. Anyway, now she's seen that I really can handle criticism, I hope she'll worry less next time about offending me.

[wayndom]

Personally, I've hardened to the opinion that friends and family are close to useless as critics.

Aside from the obvious (that your friends and loved ones don't want to hurt your feelings), there are more subtle problems that make it difficult for them to assess your work.

For example, one friend told me, "I can hear your voice when I'm reading it." Which means she's familiar with the way I tell stories. Which means she's more likely to skim over any weak spots, because she's accustomed to them. Familiarity breeds acceptance. Not good in a critic.

Friends and family can and do spot glaring mistakes, but are much less likely to spot weak writing (like too many adjectives or "Tom Swifties"). Because they know you, they expect a good story, and will plow ahead through the slow spots (where ordinary readers will put the book down and never pick it up again) to get to the good parts.

And finally, they're just not writers. You can get away with garbage that no agent or editor would put up with, because they don't realize it's garbage.

And to make matters worse, not all writers are writers. Many are hopeless wannabe's who will never be published, because they just don't have it (whatever "it" is). While not being published doesn't mean you're not a writer (I've always known I could write, but was in my forties before I got published), being published definitely means you are. And even writers who are "over the hill" and no longer produce good work, can spot bad writing in others.

So I think the Show Your Work section should have some way to identify published writers who are commenting on the work. Once again, I'm not saying that unpublished writers aren't good, just that they aren't "certified" by having been published. And I wouldn't say this if I hadn't read some extremely dubious advice offered by unpublished writers here.

[L M Ashton]

A published writer (science fiction, humour - and a truly great guy :)) sent Fahim (my husband and fellow writer & AW member) a copy of his book pre-publication. His editor was still going through edits.

When I read it, I noticed perhaps three or four grammatical errors. I enjoyed the book immensely, and couldn't put it down. Fahim read it, and noticed a dozen or two grammatical errors and a couple of logic problems. So, does this mean Fahim is automatically more honest or more correct in his crit? Not in my opinion. :) As a reader, there was nothing major enough to take me out of the story - that's also valuable feedback, as are the problems Fahim found. :)

[wayndom]

Here's a fun way to test your test reader:

Intentionally add a boogus paragraph halfway through the book, that has a character saying somthing really nasty about the person who is reading... use their full name and say something really rotten that will totally flip their lid when they read it. If you do THIS and they tell you your story is perfect, than ask them, what they thought about what the character had said about them.


This sounds like a great way to rid yourself of friends.

[Serenity]

I read my roommate and best friend's novels whenever she's finished writing them. I have been in the very fortunate position that I've liked everything she's written. :tongue Seriously. But am I an unbiased beta reader? Hell no, not for her work. I think some friends, maybe some family, are good for letting you know where things don't make sense, or maybe catch the odd typo.

Do I help her write a better book? I'd like to think that I do in some way. Do I crit enough to help her edit her book start to finish? My answer is no. I honestly wouldn't feel comfortable in doing so. Which is why I think when most friends and family read what you write you often get the, "Wow, that was perfect!" line.

[kzmiller]

Since I don't know your family and friends it's hard to comment. In my experience my husband is both my best and worst reader. He doesn't like fiction. I write fiction. He'll tell me when I'm being effective in a certain scene but overall I can't get an accurate picture from him.

A great critiquer--
*Should be able to put what works and what's bothering them into words.
*Should read and enjoy work that is close to what you're trying to write. If they love all the books that you love, that's going to be a good thing.
*Should be able to separate talking about your work and talking about you.
*Should be fearless, and should be someone you trust. If they say something you don't want to hear about your work, is it going to get between you? Will you believe them? Will they hold back for fear of upsetting you?

Good luck!

[mada]

First off ... the purpose of your family is to say, "This is the greatest work since Hemingway. You're going to be a best seller. This is perfect."

Do not ask them to say anything else. Let them be your cheering section. Go elsewhere for crits.


Can you tell my family that? I seldom let them read anything I've written because they're way too realistic. Sometimes I'd love to have them say it's the best thing out there but they refuse!

[Judg]

I don't believe a beta reader has to be a writer or knowledgeable to be helpful. (Unless you want a detailed crit.) After all, most readers are not writers. I will ask some of my betas to just read my MS and mark their reactions. I want to know where they were thinking "No way!" or "I'm bored". If they read an entire chapter and forgot they were reading a story because they were so wrapped up in it, that's good to know. If they quit reading altogether, I'd like to know where. That kind of thing. So even non-writers can give valuable input. Non-readers, not so much. Unless of course they tell me they couldn't put it down...