Can I do it?

[young_zee]

-

[Devil Ledbetter]

OMFG.

That's all I've got. Sorry.

Good luck. And congrats on that request for a full.

[Toothpaste]

I actually can kind of empathise. When I was submitting to agents, I still had about 20 000 or so words left to write in my MS. Thinking I too had a month to complete the thing, I sent out queries. The next day I was asked for a full. So I wrote those last 20 000 or so words in 3 days.

And I wound up signing with that agent.

You are in a bit more dire circumstances to be honest. But just keep plugging away, go as fast as you can without compromising the quality of your product, and who knows, it may all work out best in the end!

Good luck!

[Brighid]

Lots of coffee. Only the absolutely essential non-writing activities (including no visiting here ;) ) Little sleep. Lots of coffee.

Good luck!

[jessicaorr]

Intravenous Caffeine Drip is your friend. That and having people verbally abuse you if they see you browsing AW in the next few weeks ;-)

[Bufty]

Well, if you can't you are up the creek with nobody to blame but yourself.

Good luck, Zee.

From December post:I hope you have polished your manuscript so that it shines.

[williemeikle]

What are you doing here then? :)

Just keep your head down and get on with it... and report back on progress every so often

Willie

[Stijn Hommes]

I know I couldn't. I failed NaNoWriMo twice.
At least you learned from the experience.
I guess if you wrote 25000 words in a week, you can push for more, but please don't forget to leave time for editing.

[icerose]

Every time I'm tempted to sub early, I think about stories like this and my finger on the send button behaves and backs away slowly so as not to risk an accidental send.

Good luck.

[chrysalnix]

I can't remember where I saw this, but it was a suggestion on how to get 7500 words written each day. You start writing at 7 a.m. and stop when you reach 500 words. Then at 9 a.m., you write another 500. Keep doing that every hour until it's 10 p.m. You should be able to reach 7500 words in that time frame. Something like that....good luck!

[Will Lavender]

I can't remember where I saw this, but it was a suggestion on how to get 7500 words written each day. You start writing at 7 a.m. and stop when you reach 500 words. Then at 9 a.m., you write another 500. Keep doing that every hour until it's 10 p.m. You should be able to reach 7500 words in that time frame. Something like that....good luck!

That's writing, though.

Much more difficult to revise. A person can write a rough draft of an average-size novel in a short period of time. But when it comes to revising, things get tricky. When writing a first draft, the writer often doesn't labor over every word. When he's revising, every word sometimes becomes a brutal minefiled of decisions. This word, that word, omit, move the word to another line, take the entire paragraph out, take the entire scene out...

It can be awful, and for me it takes me about twice as long to pick through the MS as it does to actually write it.

[David I]

That's writing, though.

Much more difficult to revise. A person can write a rough draft of an average-size novel in a short period of time. But when it comes to revising, things get tricky. When writing a first draft, the writer often doesn't labor over every word. When he's revising, every word sometimes becomes a brutal minefiled of decisions. This word, that word, omit, move the word to another line, take the entire paragraph out, take the entire scene out...

It can be awful, and for me it takes me about twice as long to pick through the MS as it does to actually write it.

Well, that's one approach. I do tend to labor over the words in the first draft. I'd guess that in terms of time, writing for me is:

1) 1st Draft: 70%
2) Revision before editor: 15%
3) Editing and copyediting: 15%

I'd guess that Will's proportions on 1) and 2) are probably the inverse of mine. But I bet we are pretty similar in terms of how much is done by the time it reaches the editor or agent.

Fast writers = slow revisers, and vice-versa, I think.

But either way, what you submit to the agent/editor should be the output of a pretty slow process in total. Anybody disagree?

[megan_d]

I don't envy you.

[Shady Lane]

Pssh, I always query before the manuscript is ready. Builds character.

You can do it! That agent is not holding his or her breath for your full. Work your ass off and send it out! You'll do awesome.

[Finni]

omg :e2thud:




good luck. turn off the tv and your phone. eat finger foods at the computer. ask a friend who doesn't talk a lot or distract you to go to stores for you if you need anything (like coffee, cream for your coffee, or sugar). every now and then take a 30 minute break...leave the computer during the breaks...go outside and breathe. other than that sit your butt in the chair and don't move.

and again...good luck
congrats also!!

[icerose]

I'd like to be stalked like that and it's why I don't query until I have at least a finished second or third draft and even that is jumping the gun.

[Bufty]

Be grateful for small mercies.

aaaahhh!!! I quit my job for this book!! I lost all my friends!! My highschool sweetheart says I'm "dead" to her!!! ALL OR NOTHING


AAAAAH!!! The agent rang me again this morning!!! It's only been 10 days!!! I didn't answer it!!! I feel like I'm being stalked??

What should I do??? Should I write to her??? Surely the game is up now...


I was hoping they wouldn't care that much and let me have the 3/4 weeks I needed!!!

HEEELP!!!!!

[Shady Lane]

The agent's calling you? whoa! hurry the thing up.

[justme]

Tell the agent you are polishing it up and need a couple of weeks. Make sure you have someone that can read your work. Have them read it as you finish each chapter.

[Queen of Swords]

I wouldn't avoid the agent for too long if I were you...

[Soccer Mom]

Yup, call the agent back and let him/her know that your ms needs polishing and you are working on it. Then mainline some caffeine and write and polish.

OMFG pretty much sums it up. Good luck though.

[ishtar'sgate]

Look guys,

there is no need to tell me I've been stupid. Old news that.

I submitted my QL's when my MS wasn't polished or at least even a solid first draft. Expecting to have a month at least before the agents' responses, I got a request for a full the next day. My novel is around 80,000 words and I have done 25,000 so far in, er, 7 days. The first 3 chapters (of 9) are the most difficult, apart from this huge chapter I have, chapter 4 which is around 13,000 words. Every paragraph basically needs a complete rework, apart from dialogue. I have to edit it once, I have 14 days to send it off, but I also have to read and check it again etc. By then it will be 3 weeks since the agent requested it, and I may blow my opportunity. Can it be done?

Sure it can. Break it off into chunks and deal with 6,000 words a day. You'll have a similar time crunch when it comes to publication so roll up your sleeves and get to it.:D
Linnea

[icerose]

I would write them a professional typed letter or answer the damn phone and say "I came across some unexpected mistakes in my manuscript, would you mind granting me a 3 week time period to finish fixing these problems I didn't see before so I can present the best manuscript possible and not waste your time.

Thank you for your time.

X

[JoNightshade]

Do exactly what icerose says. Do NOT tell them how stupid you were. Pretend like you just realized you have some stuff you need to fix. If they're calling you it's because they're afraid someone else is going to snatch you up (I assume). I think anything you do to reassure them that they're still in the running will make them happy. And make them stop calling you.

Incidentally, when my agent called to offer me representation, I had to tell her "Uh, so, since you read my manuscript I kinda rewrote the last third of the book. Is that gonna be okay?"

And yes, it was okay.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Don't lie. They will know.

Look. What you want to do is to be as professional as possible. Because you know what? Being able to write is only part of what agents and publishers are looking for--they're also looking for someone who can be professional about meeting deadlines, etc..

So be professional. Send an email telling them that you realized you needed some rewrites. Set a date by which you can comfortably send them your full manuscript (if it's three weeks from now, it's three weeks from now).

THEN PUT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE ON HOLD AND GET THE THING IN ON ITS PROMISED DATE.



Lesson for other folks reading this thread: Please listen to us old hacks when we tell you something like "don't query until you have a manuscript ready to send." There's a good reason for this advice.

[girlyswot]

If they've phoned you twice, you really need to speak to them. A letter would be just plain rude.

My advice, fwiw, is to be honest with them. Explain that you've realised your manuscript isn't yet finally polished ready for submission and that you need another two or three weeks (pick one and make sure you can complete within that time) to get it into shape. Say that you're extremely flattered they're so keen and you want to do the book justice.

The worst thing you could do would be to not finish the ms. The second worst thing would be to keep hiding. TALK TO THEM. And don't act like an idiot.

[HeronW]

Be polite, be professional and be done with it!

[girlyswot]

But did you speak to them about the delay yet?

[girlyswot]

Oh, for heaven's sake. Do you actually WANT to make them as irritated with you as possible? It's one phone conversation in which you know exactly what you need to say. Don't explain the book, just explain that you need more time to get the ms ready to send them. At some point you have to start acting like a professional author.

And why on earth would you tell them about RH? They've already requested a full. They can't do more than that until, you know, you send it to them. If they're as keen as they seem to be, the last thing you want is to make them more impatient while you're still writing.

[nerds]

I don't understand why you're here and not

A.) on the phone with this agent

B.) writing


You do understand that most people here would love to be this far with an agent? You've had excellent advice in this thread. If you don't take it I daresay you'll lose the agent.

Has it occurred to you that the agent might even frequent these boards? That he or she could be saying, Man this sounds just like the Person Who Is Not Returning My Calls.

It's almost as if you subconsciously want to blow this thing. Get cracking, do the right and mature thing, treat them like a human being and CALL. Good luck with everything.

[deathwizard]

Is simple honesty out of the question, in a case like this? I'm not asking this to be sarcastic. But would it really be a deal killer? You must be doing something right, or the agent wouldn't be interested at all.

[Queen of Swords]

No!! I would be stuttering and everything!! Plus they would just get my hopes up, well if I sort of started to explain the book to the agent I would start to get excited and then sound very unprofessional.

When an agent called me, I was so nervous I was sweating and could barely speak at first, and I must have sounded like a complete amateur. But better that than annoying and unprofessional - and not getting back in touch with the agent is definitely the latter.

A letter may be safer for you. But IMO you have to meet the agent in his or her medium of communication. At first it's email, but then it's phone calls. You don't try to call the agent in Stage 1 and you don't try to avoid the agent in Stage 2. Don't lose this opportunity, and keep working on the manuscript.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Email if you're not going to call. It would be more professional to call, but don't dither about it. The important thing is to communicate as quickly and effectively as possible, and to be as professional as possible in the communication.

Good luck.

[IceCreamEmpress]

It only takes 1 minute to check this site! If you need the advice it's worth the time!

I thought a letter would be more considerate than an email...?

An email will be faster. Faster is more considerate. Unless you live somewhere with a much better postal service than I do.

Seriously, stop wasting these people's time. Let them know what you plan to do, then do it.

[megan_d]

1) they're playerhating


...Bzuh?

[Danger Jane]

It only takes 1 minute to check this site! If you need the advice it's worth the time!

I thought a letter would be more considerate than an email...?

I understand that most would love to be this far with an agent but

1) they're playerhating

2) the MS is so bizarre it will probably get rejected anyway.

1) That's ridiculous. You are the one who submitted a far-from-complete manuscript, and now are refusing to set the record even a little bit straight because you're nervous.

2) Also ridiculous. If you're going to take that attitude, what do you think the agents will think? Plenty of freaky books get published. Well-written freaky books. Still, freaky.

Now about thirty people have advised you to do pretty much the same thing: email the agent or answer his calls and say you've noticed some spots that need changing in your story, and you need a few extra weeks. And then write. Are you expecting someone to say, "Oh, just ignore him until you're done, don't worry about it..."?

[icerose]

1) they're playerhating

2) the MS is so bizarre it will probably get rejected anyway.

Very very bad attitude. I hope you adjust it immediately. No one likes to work with someone who had this kind of an attitude.

[nerds]

1) they're playerhating


Say what?

What does that even mean? You began this thread asking advice, and received it. Now it's as if you're backpedaling on the whole thing. Has everyone's time in this thread been wasted? Has the agent's?

If you're not ready for what this profession entails, be gracious enough and big enough to let the agent know you are withdrawing your manuscript from consideration for a while and thank them for their interest. And don't query anyone again until you have a finished manuscript.

If you are ready, phone or e-mail this person immediately. Be adult, polite, professional. And re-read this thread.

[Queen of Swords]

I understand that most would love to be this far with an agent but

1) they're playerhating

2) the MS is so bizarre it will probably get rejected anyway.

Sounds as though you've decided that you're not going to be professional about this since hey, your MS would have been rejected anyway. I have no idea what "playerhating" means, but if a "player" is someone who queries with an unpolished manuscript, refuses to answer the phone and won't return calls, I can see why an agent would be less than thrilled about working with such a person.

I'm not sure what you want from us now. If you feel that your MS is going to be rejected and therefore you can ignore the agent, do you need someone to tell you that that behavior is acceptable or that it won't affect any future work you send to that agent?

[kiwiauthor]

... a word of advice a well known agent was nice enough to share with me once. Editors and agents have very long memories. Fucking with them, is not advisible.

[icerose]

We're a bit tough because we don't want to see you blow this chance. And because we take this all very seriously.

[Queen of Swords]

As for playerhating, www.urbandictionary.com (http://www.urbandictionary.com)

I'm at work, and the ISP blocks this site on grounds of tastelessness.

I was only joking, I'm actually appreciative of the advice, it's just that some people are a bit tough, because they would perhaps like to have a full request, yet either way mine will probably be rejected. I don't want to get my hopes up.

I can understand fear of failure, but in this case you're annoying and inconveniencing another person. Shooting yourself in the foot is your choice, but why waste someone else's time while you're doing so?

Personally, I've already had a full request and an offer of representation, so that's not why I'm being tough on you. I'm being tough because I don't like unprofessionalism - from agents or authors.

[megan_d]

I sent them a letter, apologising a lot! and asking for more time. Do you think this should be enough?
.

You keep asking this and we keep saying 'no, not really.' If you can't be professional enough to call them, then at least e-mail!

[Bufty]

It's simply good old fashioned manners, friend.

[Queen of Swords]

Do I stand a chance if the agent says that they have trashed my query???

Should I send it in anyway?

Did the agent actually tell you that he/she had trashed your query?

[justme]

All you can do is ask for more time or forget about this agent. Wait until you complete the manuscript and then send out more queries.

Will you be able to handle writing when there are deadlines from a publisher? Maybe you need to ask yourself that question.

[Queen of Swords]

I'm sorry. What you're going through must be terrible. Since you've already contacted the agent through email, hopefully to apologize, I don't think there's anything else you can do, other than working on the manuscript before you sent out even ONE more query letter.

[IceCreamEmpress]

it's just that some people are a bit tough, because they would perhaps like to have a full request

I think the people who are being the toughest on you are people (like me) who have been published and/or worked in publishing. Get over the idea that other people are telling you uncomfortable truths because they're "jealous". The people who are giving you advice are doing so from their own experience, which is considerable.


I have a hunch that they think other agents are looking at it but I only sent out a few queries to test the waters I didn't expect anything back least of all within a day, and the full MS is in the hands of no one, not even me, because it's not done yet!!!


No, I don't think that's why they stopped considering you. I'd bet the house that it was because you acted like a flake and ducked their calls. Remember, writing a good book is only part of being a successful author.


Okay, what can you do to try to fix this situation? You can throw yourself on their mercy, playing the "I'm a first-time author and I was just so overwhelmed by the prospect of sending my MS to agents as distinguished as yourself that I screwed up. Can I re-query you in three weeks, by which time I will have a polished MS for you?"

Either they'll say "yes" or "no".

If they say, "yes", fine.

If they say "no", then you'll approach your second favorite and third favorite and so on agents.

Might as well try--you've got nothing to lose at this point.

[IceCreamEmpress]

icecreamexpress,

Thanks man.

I was thinking of playing that card but then everyone was telling me it would be unprofessional so...

You've already been unprofessional, so the only chance you have left with these folks is charming naivete. I think it's unlikely to work, but it's worth a try, I suppose.

In any case, give it a shot, but keep focused on your other options and how you're going to handle them in a more professional way. Your second-choice agent will do just as good a job for you, as will your third-choice agent and on down the list.

[girlyswot]

icecreamexpress,

I have already emailed today but received no reply, should I wait to call them or not?

Phone them. NOW. Be polite, apologetic, explain your nervousness, your ignorance, your youth, apologise, ask for another chance, apologise again, tell them it will never happen again and explain how you will make sure of that, apologise. They are your customer and you have to sell yourself as someone they want to work with.

[johnzakour]

To me it sounds like it time to throw yourself on the mercy of the "court" (the agent) and hope for the best.

The truth here is your best defense.

Worse comes to worse, they reject you, you finish the manuscript and try other agents. There are a lot of agents out there.

[johnzakour]

Oh, I wouldn't phone. But that's just me. If they call you though make sure you answer.

[icerose]

They could throw it out in a few days because they saw a potential flop in the author.

Let's look back at the list of events.

You queried them with your project. When you query with a project you are saying "It's done, it's polished, it's ready to go, can you sell it?"

So they asked for it.

You didn't respond.

They waited.

They called and called.

They were ignored by you.

After a time you get fed up. If they are as big as you say, you just wasted a whole lot of their time.

Yeah, I can see how the excitement could die.

Don't put it on them, this is your screw up. Learn from the experience, chalk it up. Try one last time with this agency explain your full situation. If they don't respond or respond with a no, walk away, but learn from it. Learn what not to do.

[Queen of Swords]

They seemed so eager at the start, I think they saw a potential hit, how could they throw it away in the space of a few days? But maybe I'm biased...

Yes, you're biased.

Imagine this agent signs on an author who's been avoiding him or her. They send the ms to an editor, who loves it but who says, "Can you make a few changes and get the revised manuscript to me by the end of the month?" The author goes MIA and doesn't respond to phone calls. Does this make the agent look good?

And this may be just me, but I get the impression that you’re focusing on the agent’s behavior/reaction a little too much, to the extent that you may be ignoring your own responsibility in this matter.

[BiggerBoat]

You've burned this bridge.

Get back to writing your book.

[rwam]

You know, maybe I'm in a bad mood or something, but if I were a successful agent, I probably would have forgotten about you already.

Impatience is the culprit here, and I wonder if the best approach would have been to ignore the full request, spend 3 months finishing the dang thing, then do a follow up query, pretending you never heard back from the initial query...of course, this is dishonest and since we were entertaining other forms of stall tactics, I figured I'd throw it out there.

Personally, I think you've probably blown your chance with this agent. Chalk it up to experience. Sounds like you've got a great start on a marketable story. This means you have reason to believe in yourself and your dream. So Dude...call up that girl friend, go have some make-up sex, and spend the next few months finishing this book that shows promise.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Personally, I think you've probably blown your chance with this agent.


Yep. You've got nothing to lose by trying one last appeal, but you need to keep focused on Plan B.

[kiwiauthor]

... or like a PhD student who knows he has to defend his thesis at the end of 4 years of research.

It's a bastardly hard thing to do, and hellishly stressful, but you knew it was part of the deal, and you have to push through, regardless of the stress. Or frankly what was the point?

So how does a PhD student push through? Well, not by 'hardening up" or a colleague saying 'get professional' ... you prepare! Anticipate what questions are going to be asked and script your answers. Oh, and be honest, when the agent calls ... that is, tell them the book isn't finished. Integrity can be a wonderful thing. And you they might surprise you.

A agree with Queen here, stop focusing on the agent's behaviour and look to your own. That's where responsibility lies.

best of luck.

Btw the 'don't fuck with agents and editors' was the agent's exact words, not mine. :)

[icerose]

So Dude...call up that girl friend, go have some make-up sex, and spend the next few months finishing this book that shows promise.

Yes, by all means get your life back. Now! It doesn't have to be an either or. several of us have families and jobs. We balance it all out. You can too.

[kiwiauthor]

Zee, with regard to what to say to this agent, I'd say very little. Only answer questions, if that's all you feel up too. The agent is going to know you're nervous. They do this for a job, nervous authors are a large part of the landscape. What I would prepare is a good understanding of the book. And script this material if you don't trust yourself to articulate in a lucid manner.

And remember be honest, but you don't have to tell her/him every little detail.

Oh, and finally, breath, brother, breath. Seriously, enjoy the ride, this is a wonderful opportunity, and to have got this far says a great deal about your talent. On those grounds alone you deserve significant self belief.

Wish you the very best for tomorrow.

Kiwi.

[IceCreamEmpress]

But I have to ring this agent tomorrow guys, and by saying that I have completely blown it won't exactly fill me with confidence and will make me sound defeated even before I begin. For that matter, what on earth do I even say to this person?

"Hi. I got your letter after I had already sent my email explaining my delay in sending you the full manuscript. I know I acted unprofessionally, but I was so overwhelmed at the thought of you requesting my full manuscript that I just freaked out. You see, I'm only {your age} and I'm a first-time writer, and I never dreamed I'd be hearing from you so quickly. So many writers have told me that it took months and months to hear back from agents, after all.

I really want to work with you guys because {reason}. When I started printing my manuscript out to send it to you, I realized it needed a thorough edit. The last thing I wanted to do was waste your time. Would you be willing to look at the full manuscript when I've completed the edit on {absolute firm date}?"


Don't mention the part where you didn't return their phone calls. If they mention it, I think the right thing to say is, "Yes, that was part of my complete panic. I know it was unprofessional. I was just so overwhelmed."

[nerds]

"Hi. I got your letter after I had already sent my email explaining my delay in sending you the full manuscript. I know I acted unprofessionally, but I was so overwhelmed at the thought of you requesting my full manuscript that I just freaked out. You see, I'm only {your age} and I'm a first-time writer, and I never dreamed I'd be hearing from you so quickly. So many writers have told me that it took months and months to hear back from agents, after all.

I really want to work with you guys because {reason}. When I started printing my manuscript out to send it to you, I realized it needed a thorough edit. The last thing I wanted to do was waste your time. Would you be willing to look at the full manuscript when I've completed the edit on {absolute firm date}?"



There you go. Right there. Human being to human being. Communication.

[icerose]

Icecream said it best. I think that would be the best way to handle it.

Good luck, and seriously balance. I know it probably doesn't help, but you've got to find it.

[kiwiauthor]

Nicely put, I.C.E. You don't work in PR by any chance.

[girlyswot]

And learn your lesson - agents aren't just looking for great books, they're also looking for authors they can work with.

[AndreaGS]

Ok, now print out what IceCreamEmpress said and take it with you when you ring up the agent.

I used to be sort of phone-phobic, so sometimes I found it helped me to have a written "script" - something I could refer to to remember what it was I was supposed to be saying!

Best of luck!

[Danger Jane]

Don't jump down her throat with your little speech--just don't beat around the bush. If she wants to say something first, let her, but don't let whatever she says discourage you. You know what to say--ICE gave great advice a little ways backthread. So take some calming yoga breaths and say it.

[Diane]

One more thing, should I just get on with the speech straight after she says hello, before she can just say NO ?

Does that normally work for you, when you start a phone conversation?

Start with Hello. It's a time-tested technique.

In fact, you might wanna write out the whole conversation before hand, starting with

You: Hello. This is <your name>.

and ending with

You: Thanks for your time! I appreciate you taking my call.

[Appalachian Writer]

Nobody's perfect. The first time I submitted, I was proud as punch, thinking that no one could possibly find my work less than polished. I even received some partial requests from some highly reccommended agencies, which I promptly sent. Just for the heck of it, I sent the book out to a beta who came back with, shall we say, a FEW!!! corrections. "OMG!" I screamed. "This poor beta doesn't know how good I am." Well, not quite, but you get the drift. Then I looked at her suggestions, and (gulp!) she was right. I don't know if those agents will ever look at anything I submit again. My only hope is that they're too busy to remember the lack of quality of that first submission.

Remember the words of the Empress. She knows what she's doing, or at least, I've never read any bad advice that came from her direction.

GOOD LUCK!

[James D. Macdonald]

I don't know if those agents will ever look at anything I submit again.


Rejections are forgotten.

[kiwiauthor]

... it means the door is still open, but you're not their first priority, IMHO.

Are all agents like this? Absolutely not. Many are far less understanding. I'd take the positive out of this, Zee, you now have time to finish and polish your manuscript.

Just a suggestion, I'd go over the manuscript at least three times, before subbing. I think most published authors around here would likely agree, many newbies send their work to market too quickly. This game is 99% patience and perseverence.

Best of luck with this.

Kiwi.

[icerose]

It is a good sign. Take it as a good thing they're giving you another chance and mail it only have it is truly ready.

[IceCreamEmpress]

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

Ok it's 3am here but anyway, just got the most odd email.

Why are agents so impolite?

I think people who have experienced impoliteness might be excused a bit of impoliteness in return.

It was only 3 lines long saying not to email, only snailmail contact is allowed, and I can take as long as I want, but no email MS submission.

Does that mean it's all good??!?!

It sounds like they're willing to read your full manuscript once it's revised. I'd call that a good outcome!

So send them a letter confirming this, reaffirming your apology, and establishing a date by which you will send your full, revised manuscript. (Basically everything you would have said in your phone call.)

Then revise like mad for the next week or two weeks, whichever you have decided on. Then send the manuscript a few days BEFORE the deadline you've established.

[rwam]

Well, good luck, YZ. Remember to print off the email you just got and include that with your MS when you mail it off to them.

[Shweta]

Oh yeah, the second is, do NOT treat agents like girls. If you impress them then treat them with casual disdain, they will NOT be more eager to see you, they will just throw you away. This applies to girls too but it takes far longer for them to dispose of your QL.

Sure of that, are you? :D Depends on if we know where those QLs are!
I think the take-home lesson might be don't treat agents or girls this way :tongue

[CaroGirl]

I just read through this thread and it made me very stressed out. All I can say is I hope I never get myself into such an unenviable position. I mean, whoa.

Glad it worked out, though.

[girlyswot]

OMG!! I can't believe it! I thought I seriously messed something else up, like I was cursed this year or something as everything was going wrong. Because of the nature of the book, deep down I know it will probably be rejected, but I'm so glad to at least have a chance.

Um, you ignoring all known advice and predictably ending up in a mess? Not exactly the definition of cursed.


Thankyou to everyone who has helped me on this, esp. to kiwi and Icecreamexpress, the only benefit for the forum in general is that you NEVER query until you are 100% sure your work is the best it can possibly be.

Well done. You've finally worked this out.

The only thing I regret is the negativity with which the agent might now possibly read the MS, but my email was very good I think.

I would have thought a letter would be too forward after an email, I don't want to bother them, that's one reason why I didn't call them in the first place.


Returning their multiple phone calls does not constitute 'bothering them'. Ignoring them does.

Oh yeah, the second is, do NOT treat agents like girls. If you impress them then treat them with casual disdain, they will NOT be more eager to see you, they will just throw you away. This applies to girls too but it takes far longer for them to dispose of your QL.


I don't think anyone else was under the misapprehension that this was a good way to treat agents or girls. But well done for realising this, too.

Seriously, you have done everything wrong and I cannot tell you how fortunate you are to still have a chance. DON'T MESS IT UP AGAIN. And don't call your agents 'impolite', even on the forums. There are agents here, you know, who can read your whole story and work out for themselves who's been rude and stupid and who was patient and forgiving. Get over yourself. Then you might have a chance of making it.

[johnzakour]

Sure of that, are you? :D Depends on if we know where those QLs are!
I think the take-home lesson might be don't treat agents or girls this way :tongue

You beat me to it.

[kiwiauthor]

... is QL what i think it is?

[dempsey]

Query Letter, I'd assume?

[kiwiauthor]

... it can also mean 'quality loving' in my part of the world. And Zee being a player and all ...

[dempsey]

.. I could go for some QL right about now :Thumbs:

[kiwiauthor]

... No QL, because you didn't vote! ... and Zee's busy editing. :)

[KarlaErikaCal]

If you set your mind to it, you can do it. That's something I abide my life to.

[johnzakour]

What does it mean that the agent does not want any other agent to be reading the full at the same time as them? That's what they requested.


It means they want to read it exclusively so they don't spend time reading it only to learn, "oh I already found another agent."

I wouldn't read too much into it.

[icerose]

What are you 60? You still have your youth.

And when they say they don't want anyone else reading it, it means it's an "exclusive". It means you don't send it to anyone until they say yes or no. It means they don't want to waste their time.

[girlyswot]

It means they don't want to waste their time.

Well, it means they don't want to waste any more of their time...

[Bufty]

And Zee - give yourself a realistic deadline this time - not 21 days or such rubbish. Indeed, why make a deadline at all? It's ready when it's ready and they don't seem to have mentioned or given you any deadline. 'Take all the time you need'

Good luck.

[icerose]

Well, it means they don't want to waste any more of their time...

Very , very true.

[kiwiauthor]

... a caution on exclusives, Zee; how long have they requested exclusivity? Be careful here. When I was starting out a big name NY agent wanted to read my first book (a piece of shit-the book not the agent) and requested a six month exclusive. After which time, she simply said no.

What you might want to do is accept the exclusive with the condition that while you guarrantee them first call on the work if they want it, they in turn agree to let you continue subbing it around. Just a thought.

You have probably already said so, but who is the agent?

[Stew21]

Suck it up, young zee. You have an agent waiting.
Now is not the time to decide it's crap. Too late for that. Get through your final edit and send it.
You have to shut the internal editor down. It will tell you everytime you go to submit something that you are a fraud and what you write is crap. It happens to everyone.
Hush that voice, write through it, and get it into the hands of the agent that wants to read it.

Too late to wonder if it's crap now. You're supposed to worry about that before you query an agent with it. Way before.

Get back to work.


Trish

[icerose]

So this is what you do zee. You get through it quickly. You turn it into the agent, then you go to betas. You don't want to completely cut off their hands on this one. If they don't like it, they'll reject you.

And don't talk about Harry Potter success. It took her five years to formulate and write the story. She wrote it on napkins while she waited in coffee shops to get out of the cold. The last six months or so she was unemployed, on welfare, had a child to take care of. She recieved over 28 rejections. You haven't gotten even one.

If you want the success (which is somewhat of a lottery in and of itself) you're going to have to prepare yourself to take a pummelling. And from the sounds of it, you aren't ready for the success either.

Take a deep breath, finish the edit, even if you gloss over it. Then submit it. Don't burn this agency. At least a rejection will be better than never trying.

Also another note on JK Rowlings. After something like the fifth book was out, after all that success, she said "I'm just happy someone accepted my book and I could hold a copy in my hand." Or something to that effect. If you look at the big scale which could never come and you have no control over, you'll drown in your own overreaching. Instead form small goals and achieve them one at a time. Your current one should be getting your book into that agency.

No success is ever instant. She also got a 2k advance, went like 2 years getting moderate sales, then was picked up by a larger publisher and filed into the proper reading catagory where it then took off. So even after she was accepted after all those rejections, it still took time.

[rwam]

I know you didn't ask for it, Zee, but everytime you post, I get the very strong impression that you've probably told way too many people you're a writer and now have placed too much pressure on yourself, along with already having very unrealistic expectations. You've also chosen to put yourself in a position where you've put everything at stake at the apparent success of this book.

But I promise you it doesn't need to be this way. Slow Down. Seriously, dude. You need to calm down. Otherwise, you're going to drive yourself mad.

No, you probably don't want to make this agent wait any longer than he/she already is going to, but please, PLEASE, do not query any more agents until your MS is polished and at least 1 or 2 betas have read it.

[timewaster]

But either way, what you submit to the agent/editor should be the output of a pretty slow process in total. Anybody disagree?

I'm not sure that time is the most important factor. When I write fast it's because I know what I'm doing and what I'm doing is working. When I write slowly it's generally because I'm stuck and things aren't working.
Work written quickly has a lot of typos; work written slowly still has a lot of typos and often a few continuity and pacing problems too.
I can see that sometimes slow equals careful and brilliant, I really can, but, in my case, it usually just means - er - slow.

[icerose]

I'm the same way Timewaster. Slow means I'm having issues.

As for JK I could have her statistics wrong, I had heard 28 rejections on her, but I could very well be mistaken.

I know I wasn't ready for success with my first novel though no one could have told me so and I am glad it has been a struggle though I wouldn't reject it, it has given me time to mature both as a writer and as a person.

[timewaster]

So this is what you do zee. You get through it quickly. You turn it into the agent, then you go to betas. You don't want to completely cut off their hands on this one. If they don't like it, they'll reject you.


No success is ever instant. She also got a 2k advance, went like 2 years getting moderate sales, then was picked up by a larger publisher and filed into the proper reading catagory where it then took off. So even after she was accepted after all those rejections, it still took time.

JKR's first book began quielty with a small advance but it was a huge word of mouth hit with kids and won several UK prizes. She didn't change publishers, though she retained US rights which she sold to Scholastic (?)

What happened to her is very unlikely to happen to anyone else. Her publisher was as overwhelmed and surprised as anyone else. Although people claim to be looking for the next' Harry Potter' I don't think that is really true within the industry where her success is acknowledged as a once in a generation kind of thing.

I agree with you though, writing is a one step at a time business. First write your book or in Zee's case: second write your book very, very fast. The rest is not worth worrying about.

[icerose]

JKR's first book began quielty with a small advance but it was a huge word of mouth hit with kids and won several UK prizes. She didn't change publishers, though she retained US rights which she sold to Scholastic (?)



Dang I really had the story wrong. But the point is her success is well she's the first to have that level and to have made that much money as a writer. There are several other successful writers but they are a very small percentage of writers.

[kiwiauthor]

Do you think we all are bored by our own works in the end, because we have read them so many times?

Desensatization is an inevitable part of the editing process. But it is essential if you're serious about your writing to find ways of over coming it. Putting the manuscript in the draw for a week or two is often touted. Another way to read the work with new eyes is to change the fond/colour/size.

... anything to fool your brain into thinking it is seeing something new.

The thing is, bored or not, you have to get on with it. If you wait for your muse, then starvation is likely to get you first. :).

[kiwiauthor]

As for wanting to be the next JKR, great go for it. Just remember, one bite at a time, and in that regard nothing is more important than getting the book you working on right now as perfect as you can.

The rest is not worth worrying about. ... at least for now. There will be time to be strategic when you've finished that book.


Oh, and the agent. You checked them out, right? Made sure they were legit etc.?

[icerose]

Oh and read it out loud or have someone else read it to your or a program read it to you. Hearing it makes all kinds of errors pop out.

[juneafternoon]

Can you ever requery agents, if you've run out of agents to query?
Miss Snark said that she never took on clients that she rejected the first time around. Unless you do a major plot overhaul and wait 6-12 months, I wouldn't. I'd let the manuscript sit and work on something new. Chances are, it might turn out even better and with a stronger hook.

[girlyswot]

Failure is not an option.

Yes. Yes, it is.

In order to move on I would have to have a great success and feel great about myself.

Really? Because you know, most great artists and authors produce their best work through learning from suffering and failure. This is not your only chance. Get a job. Go to university. Get a girlfriend (now that you've learned a bit more about how to be nice to women). Grow up a bit. Keep writing.

Most people do charity work to instil thoughts of 'worth' in the mind, but that is fake.

I have no idea what this has to do with writing, but please keep your judgments about other people's charitable actions off the boards. I am prepared to believe that any charity work you do is fake. Please believe that mine is not.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Failure is not an option.

Well, put it on the "options" table, because you may not succeed with this novel.

In order to move on I would have to have a great success and feel great about myself. Most people do charity work to instil thoughts of 'worth' in the mind, but that is fake.

This? Dangerous, self-serving bullshit. Helping other people is not "fake" in any way.

A meaningful novel published is a true achievement.

Charitable work is just as much of an achievement as great art. Find a ladder and get over yourself.


Seriously, get over yourself. Once you let go of your love affair with being a Great Writer, you'll be a much better writer.

Your book will not change the world. Here is a list of books that have changed the world:

The scriptures of the world's major religions
Das Kapital by Karl Marx
Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe
The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
The Diary of Anne Frank
The Wretched of the Earth by Frantz Fanon
Common Sense by Thomas Paine

and maybe a half-dozen others. Your book? Not going to change the world. Yes, I know you think it's oh-so-shocking because it has bad words and racism in it. Did Trainspotting change the world? Did How Late it Was, How Late change the world? Realistic depictions of people's unsavory language and behavior just aren't that shocking.


A realistic expectation for your book would be this: It is published, people read and enjoy it, you get paid enough to give you time to write the next book. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[dempsey]

I'd like to add On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres to ICE's list and suggest the following:

If you want to change the world, go into science.

[icerose]

You are very young and you WILL fail many times in many areas of your life for many years to and even till death.

Failure is nothing to be ashamed of. What is important is what you do after you've failed. In my opinion failure (whether it's an option or not) are steps to success, and you have to take the good with the bad.

You are putting too much focus on this book. Get away from it. Heck at this point I would survive you stop writing. Run away. Get a life. And until you find some super important things in your life, stay away from this obsession.

Take away the pressure, take the lumps as they come, they'll add more character.

[IceCreamEmpress]

I'd like to add On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres to ICE's list


Yes, this!

Also, of course, On the Origin of Species and On the Circulation of Blood by Harvey.

Even including ground-breaking scientific books, I'd wager the list is smaller than 50.

[Queen of Swords]

Most people do charity work to instil thoughts of 'worth' in the mind, but that is fake.

Not for the first time, I'm reminding myself that you are young, stressed out and apparently underskilled in courtesy.

However, I have has volunteered in a charity, and not for the mean and shallow motive that you ascribe to most people who do so. So please try to cut down on these offensive statements - about agents, about people who do charity work, and about anyone else. People can live good lives and achieve admirable things even if they don't write Great Meaningful Novels.

[girlyswot]

People can live good lives and achieve admirable things even if they don't write Great Meaningful Novels.

Quite right. And it has to be said that many of those who do write Great Meaningful Novels don't amount to much in their real lives.

[icerose]

If I had to choose between writing A Great Meaningful Novel and my life as it is right now. I'd choose my life hands down.

I just want to write interesting stories that entertain people and they look for me on the shelves the next time they are searching for a book. I want to be a good mermorable writer. But I don't want that to be the only thing that defines me.

You called people who do charity work "Fake" how is that not an insult? Confused again. For a writer you choose your words extremely poorly.

[Esopha]

I'm going to give you a suggestion, one young writer from another. Your age definitely works against you. Try to act mature. Keep your calm. Don't spazz out. Accept failure and criticism graciously. Accept it happily, in fact, because you're going to get a lot of it and pain is a learning experience.

Live your life. There will be other books.

And volunteer work definitely takes ingenuity, poise, compassion and determination more than writing a novel does. Because you're working with people, and people are hard to deal with. I'm sure you'll realize what I mean if you continue acting the way you are.

I really want you to succeed. Take a deep breath and a step back before you dive in any further. Please.

[DWSTXS]

sex, drugs, and rock and roll !

oops! That's the sub-title for my current WIP. LOL

well.........all I can say is..........I wish I had YOUR problem!

Good luck!

[IceCreamEmpress]

I never said that charity work is worth less than writing a novel.

Yes, you did. You said:

Most people do charity work to instil thoughts of 'worth' in the mind, but that is fake. A meaningful novel published is a true achievement.

Own your own words, dude.


As for the "I don't accept failure" nonsense--if you fail in this particular attempt, you will have to accept it. And learn from it. And try something else.

And, seriously--if you get over the idea that this is your One Big Chance, your book will be all the better for it. Seriously. Dial down the drama and work hard.

[Queen of Swords]

I never said that charity work is worth less than writing a novel.

You said,

"Most people do charity work to instil thoughts of 'worth' in the mind, but that is fake. A meaningful novel published is a true achievement."

The implication is that charitable work is not as much of a "true achievement" as publishing a meaningful novel. This is also an insult to people who do charitable work. You can claim all you like that it wasn't, and you can say that you meant something entirely different. But that doesn't change the offensiveness of what you originally said.

You would come off as a much more mature and sensitive person if you apologized for the original statement, rather than getting defensive and justifying it.

I'm not saying it doesn't require great heart or will, I'm just saying that more people do charity work than write successful published novels.

So what if more people do charity work? More people bring up children than write novels. Does this mean that there's something inferior about bringing up a child?

And finally, never did I say that the one reason people do charity work is to gain self-worth.

I'll quote you again.

"Most people do charity work to instil thoughts of 'worth' in the mind."

You didn't say it was the one and only reason, but you said it was the reason most people did charity work. If you can't see why that's insulting, you need to work on more than your editing.

Everyone seems to have jumped on my statements and tried their utmost to see them in the most negative light possible, rather than simply reading them as they are intended.

Ah yes. It's everyone else's fault. It's not yours at all.

You are not creating a good impression, Zee. Please try to think about what people are telling you.

[DWSTXS]

As for the "I don't accept failure" nonsense--if you fail in this particular attempt, you will have to accept it. And learn from it. And try something else.

And, seriously--if you get over the idea that this is your One Big Chance, your book will be all the better for it. Seriously. Dial down the drama and work hard.
IceCreamEmpress -


Great advice!

[kiwiauthor]

Zee, I suggest you check and see what is said about this agent/cy here at AW. If you haven't already, go to the bewares and background checks forum. You can never be too careful.

Oh, and how about posting the first chapter of your novel in the "Share your work" forum. I'll give it a once over, and I'm sure there are lots of people here who are curious to see your writing.

best Kiwi.

[girlyswot]

Esopha - I thank you for your kind wishes, my best to you also.

However, I disagree with your statement that charity work involves as much ingenuity as writing a brilliant novel. If this were true, then we would have as many JK Rowlings or Tolkiens as charity workers. I am not saying that JK Rowling or Tolkien are better people than charity workers - I daresay they're most probably not, and you can meet the most humble and pleasant of people in those surroundings - but in terms of ingenuity they are far superior. I really don't like the way one slightly non-PC statement has been blown completely out of proportion, and also, people should accept the fact that we all take this pursuit with different levels of seriousness. I do not write because I find it fun. It is not casual enough for that.

ICE - I do believe that if you have published a successful novel, it is more commendable and hence worth more than doing charity work. I am not saying it is better, as in more morally good, which of course it is not, but our goals and accomplishments are, for the most part, selfish in essence, but there is nothing wrong with that. We all have things we want to achieve, and in that sense, I believe that self-worth derived from charity work is fake, because it is not an achievement based on your individual ingenuity. Whether you are a good person for doing charity work, of course that sense of doing good is not fake, and I must stress that I have met many people who are borderline geniuses but are not good people. This is an internet forum and nobody knows how (negatively) I eventually reacted to those people, and in fact took to those far less intelligent but with good hearts. I do value it, honestly, and of course there is a part of you that needs to feel like a good person, myself included, but in terms of accomplishment, it doesn't compare to the achievement of writing a published novel, that's just my opinion.


Stop digging.

[Shady Lane]

I'm beginning to understand why some agents won't work with teenagers...

[Hopcus]

Everyone has different values and I don't think you can really say one is right and one is wrong.

[Queen of Swords]

Queen of Swords, I am sorry if I offended you, honestly. What can I say to someone who has probably done more charity work than I will ever do, because it's clear you're passionate about it.

No, Zee. It's probably best that you not attempt to read people's feelings, because you're way off the mark on mine. I'm not passionate about charity work.

All I can say is I am sorry because I don't want to offend good people.
But in terms of getting defensive, I did not,

I'm afraid that an apology which goes along the lines of "I'm sorry, but..." isn't much of an apology.

This is going to sound awful, and people will hate it, but anyone can make a baby and raise a child.

Your naivety isn't going to arouse feelings of hate in anyone, Zee. I think you've made your point - every human endeavor, from curing cancer to landing on the moon to raising children to fighting crime pales beside the Monumental Achievement of Novelhood. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[DWSTXS]

While I agree that a successful novel is a great achievement......I do not agree that such an achievement should be valued at a higher rate than charity work.

I have never done charity work, probably because, like a lot of people, I am too selfish, too self-absorbed, and really not very good at being sociable and giving. I understand my shortcomings though.

However, I think that the 'argument' here is a simple matter of perception. Most of us believe or understand that putting charity work before our own wants and desires constitutes a greater good. We put off our own desires and instead desire to to good for society or others in general.

I think it's a matter of priorities. While my priority is to myself though, I clearly admit that I would be a much better person in almost every way, if I were to give more freely of my energies to help those who have less, and to those who are less fortunate than I.

[kiwiauthor]

... Zee, you're absolutely entitied to your own belief system. Anyone with a year of grad. school will haev placed your politics straight off and moved on ...

I think what most folks are taking point with is your naivety vis a vis publishing, and the glaring contradiction in your perception that results from this. If you were serious about this industry, then you'd know what I'm talking about.

Honestly, you're coming across as a big-noting imbecile. The latter, because your work practices scream amateur. I don't believe this is what you intend.

That said, at the end of the day, the proof is in action. Post your first chapter and let readers be the judge. :)

[girlyswot]

I'm slightly worried that someone who has such poor communication skills is putting all their hopes on becoming a novelist.

[Diane]

If I didn't remember what a dork I was just after graduating college...

...I'd believe sincerely that what we have here is performance art.

Zee: your tea cup is full. You need to empty it before you can accept any of the other, better tea many people here (and probably elsewhere in your life) are offering you.

[kiwiauthor]

I agree with Hopcu; we all understand the arbitrary nature of the sign, right?

[DWSTXS]

Alright, alright guys, can we just end the classic forum gang up now? I mean, it's obvious that you all disagree with what I said, but I can't change what I think so we're not going to get anywhere.


If you're going to spout such theories as you have, Young Zee, you better get used to being 'ganged up on'.....especially with the type of opinion you posted. Those unpopular opnions will draw fire extremely quickly, especially with persons who are so evolved that they give so freely of themselves in the fight to help others.

[Queen of Swords]

Given the replies here, I would never post my first chapter on SYW.

Zee, even if you confuse your novel with yourself or with your opinions on charity work and child-rearing, rest assured that the critiquers in SYW will not.

If you come off as an unpleasant or ungrateful person, then your work may not receive as many replies as that of others do, but what's criticized on SYW is the writing, not the author.

QOS - since did I read your feelings completely wrong, that shows how we can never judge somebody based on posts from an internet forum.

Oh, that was a nice try, Zee. A very nice try. But I wouldn't make the assumption that because you read me wrong, "we" are equally incapable of drawing accurate inferences from certain offensive statements.

I believe that pointless posts such as those of girlyswot ARE, in fact, the little ones that boost you self-worth.

You are not winning any points yourself with this attitude, Zee, and I don't think you're in a position to comment on anyone else's self-worth.

[young_zee]

I deleted all my posts from this.

I maintain what I believe, but this does not even matter. It is an internet forum: I have not 'put' myself in any kind of position to comment on anyone's self-worth, because this is a debate on an internet forum. Nobody can judge anyone based on comments on an internet forum, let alone the simple fact that a person happens to believe JK Rowling's achievement (or that of any other successful and unique author) is superior to that of almost any woman you please who is, by biological nature, capable of successfully rearing a child, or whatever other pursuit which is common to most.

[DWSTXS]

Originally Posted by young_zee
Given the replies here, I would never post my first chapter on SYW.

******

And why not Zee? All of us here, on AW, are READERS..........we ARE your audience if your work ever gets published. If you are afraid of bad or critical reviews, then you should stop writing. Once it gets into the public you won't get the chance to select who reads it anyway.

[kiwiauthor]

kiwi - I do agree that I am a complete amateur in this industry. I was shocked when the agent rang me etc., what can I say to that.

Exactly my point. Agents call/email when you query them. And if I understand this thread, they called based entirely on a QL? If so that means, well , shit. If they'd called based on a sample of your writing, you might have reason to be excited. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, Zee, but I serious suggest you research this industry more than you have. Dreams are extremely important, hold on to them with both hands. But if you want them to be any more than pipe dreams, you need a bloody good plan and understanding of the 'terrian' and a shit load of patience and perseverence, because the queue behind JKR is an extremely long one, and you're nowhere near the front. Yet.

Now go and prove me wrong.

[DWSTXS]

I deleted all my posts from this. - Young Zee

****

Wow! Nice way to defend your position, Zee.......run away and hide.......

[Queen of Swords]

I have not 'put' myself in any kind of position to comment on anyone's self-worth

Then why make comments like, "I believe that pointless posts such as those of girlyswot ARE, in fact, the little ones that boost you self-worth"?

By doing this, you are making an offensive personal comment.

...almost any woman you please who is, by biological nature, capable of successfully rearing a child, or whatever other pursuit which is common to most.

Yes, all you need to successfully rear a child is a couple of X chromosomes. To rear a child to become a Great Novelist, you might want to throw a uterus into the equation as well.

Seriously, you have so much to learn about the real world. I hope you enjoy the experience.

[DWSTXS]

Exactly my point. Agents call/email when you query them. And if I understand this thread, they called based entirely on a QL? If so that means, well , shit. If they'd called based on a sample of your writing, you might have reason to be excited. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, Zee, but I serious suggest you research this industry more than you have. Dreams are extremely important, hold on to them with both hands. But if you want them to be any more than pipe dreams, you need to a bloody good plan and understanding of the 'terrian' and a shit load of patience and perseverence, because the queue behind JKR is an extremely long one, and you're nowhere near the front. Yet.

Now go and prove me wrong.

Wow! I liked that. I might just cut and paste some of that and put it up over my writing area.
Great!

[kiwiauthor]

Zee, You conflate the social and the biological in you last statement. I suggest you leave the sociology to those of us qualified to speak on the matter. In my view, it's always a good idea to know at least something about the topic you want to discuss before making categorical statements.

"Nobody can judge anyone based on comments on an internet forum, let alone the simple fact that a person happens to believe JK Rowling's achievement (or that of any other successful and unique author) is superior to that of almost any woman you please who is, by biological nature, capable of successfully rearing a child, or whatever other pursuit which is common to most."

[DWSTXS]

Dear Young Zee,

From my own experience and troubles, I know whereof I speak.......and I sincerely make the suggestion that you give up this fight. You are overrun and outnumbered. Give it up.

Sincerely,
Col. Travis
Alamo, TX

[dempsey]

:popcorn:

[kiwiauthor]

I deleted all my posts from this. I maintain what I believe, but this does not even matter.

defense, defense, defense, defense, and defense of defense, then an inverted dialectic as a defense of a defense, followed by a rejoinder inverted as a defense. Finally a conclusion that contradicts the defense, thus making the entire argument redundant.

Dempsey PM this to me and asked for it to be posted.

[DWSTXS]

I think Young Zee's 'theory' and ensuing defense thereof, was nothing more than a failed bit.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Wow.

That's just--

No, all I have is "wow".

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think being a novelist is the Most Awesome Job Ever. But more important than doing things for others? Or parenting children? Not even in the picture.

[BenPanced]

I deleted all my posts from this.

I maintain what I believe, but this does not even matter. It is an internet forum: I have not 'put' myself in any kind of position to comment on anyone's self-worth, because this is a debate on an internet forum.
It started out as a simple request for help. When people started telling you answers you didn't want to hear or couldn't accommodate, it turned into a debate on a person's worth because of comments you've oh-so-helpfully deleted.

Nobody can judge anyone based on comments on an internet forum,
You started out as a friendly sort and just got nasty. How could I tell? From quotes you've made others have posted in their replies. Granted, you can't get the full picture of what a person's really like just by what they've posted on internet forums, but it sure goes a long way.

let alone the simple fact that a person happens to believe JK Rowling's achievement (or that of any other successful and unique author) is superior to that of almost any woman you please who is, by biological nature, capable of successfully rearing a child, or whatever other pursuit which is common to most.
To hold JKR's success up as a zenith of any success - writing, rearing children, baking cakes, designing dresses, eating the most lemons - is completely unfair, irresponsible, and unrealistic to all parties involved. It's not apples to oranges; it's apples to humpback whales.

Look at it this way: because of her success as an author, JKR's able to do MORE CHARITY WORK. She's a patron of a multiple sclerosis society in Scotland because her mother died from it.

[icerose]

Wow, just chuck out the lady who worked with radiology and lost her life to it, and chuck out the first black woman who became dean to an ivy league school. Chuck out all the female doctors who give up their professional lives to help foreign countries who are too poor to have real doctors and go into warzones. Chuck out all the woman sufferage rights protestors, chuck ouch the first woman who tried to vote. Chuck out female rulers who made a difference, especially that Princess Diana. She was nothing.

Because we have a woman who is a novelist and nothing compares to that!

[Stew21]

wow is right. A lot of people gave valuable insight, guidance and advice. you should be commended, AWers, (no matter what Young Zee says about it)for helping Young Zee when he found he'd gotten into a predicament. Just bear in mind that even if your wisdom and patience with him doesn't pay off, that someone will come along in need of information, read this and heed the warning and appreciate what you gave him.

[ColoradoGuy]

I think this one's run it's useful course, so I'm locking it.

[Birol]

Thank you, Chris. I guess I put away my jackboots too soon.