Editor or no editor

[sheadakota]

I did see this on another thread, but couldn't find it, so forgive me if I am repeating a topic-

I have read that it is better to edit your own work than to hire someone to do it for you. I do agree in theory, but what if you don't know enough to edit your work, what if you need a fresh pair of eyes to see mistakes that you can't?

I do have an editor and while I do not rely on him as much as I did in the past- I have learned Sooo much from him in terms of punctuation and such- I do value his opinion on my WIP. I know he will not BS me just to feed my ego-

He has become a valued friend and a great Beta reader-

My point is - if I had never hired him in the first place- I would never have learned the things I have- My MS would still be extremely Ametureish (Is that a word?) So is it so bad to have someone help you? Or would this be more of a personal choice?

[Bufty]

You admit to having a punctuation (and perhaps a grammar defecit) at the time, so an editor was your choice.

That's reasonable enough, but if someone has a working grasp of grammar and punctuation I think they should be able to edit their own manuscript to a perfectly acceptable level without incurring what can be fairly high costs with no guarantee of recouping them through publication.

[Potluck]

This thread might help with resources on story and style editing.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90705

I'm not worried about the grammar part, verb tense, commas and the like until I can tell, whoops, show a good story.

[ORION]

Community college English classes and continual writing are probably a better investment.
In reality -- I don't know that professional editing helps a writer. The exception? If you are self pubbing.
Many people mix up copy editing with an editorial letter about the basic structure and premise of their novel.
I truly think beta readers are a much better investment- but they take more time than money...

[johnzakour]

Some people use beta-readers I like to (when I have time) to use beta-editors. People who edit my material before my editors see it (just so they have less ulcers). Other people catch mistakes I use to miss like wrong words and typos, I read them correctly.

One thing that I have found has really helped my self-editing though is letting my computer read my text back to me. It works so well I don't think I'll use a beta-editor for my latest book.

[kzmiller]

I suggest that you get some books on editing (the suggestions in the other thread on editing books are good) and wean yourself off of having an editor, if for no other reason that it'll be difficult for you to develop your own style if someone else is doing the fine tuning. You can find some beta readers right here on AW. I wouldn't necessarily go cold turkey, especially since you say this person is a friend, but the fact that you're contemplating this move tells me that you're probably ready to set off on your own.

If you have the money to spend on an editor and you're still feeling very insecure, I'd suggest that you use your money to take classes from a reputable writing school instead of spending it on an editor. I'm not sure if it's allowed to suggest schools on AW--I know of a nice online one that has quite a few free services as well as the actual courses. You'll find it's a lot like having your stuff gone over by an editor, but the instructors pull back the curtain and explain what they're doing and why and help you learn how to do it yourself. Something to think about.

[sheadakota]

Thanks all- great advice and links-
I actually do have a degree- but not in writing-
I openly admit that I do have a deficit in the mechanics of writing- Not nessecarily grammer, but things more specific to writing novels- Things like passive writing- using gerunds- and other things along this line- Things I didn't know were a big no-no when submitting my novel- things this editor taught me - I use him now only as a beta but he, in my mind was an ali when I had no idea why my MS kept getting rejected. That is what I was referring to- while I no longer make those mistakes I know there are others out there that could use help like I did. It is hard to find a brutally honest Beta reader who also has the knowledge of an editor- I have taken writing classes and they still didn't cover things such as how to format-

I must sound patheric to you all :) And don't mean to sound defensive- but as much as I agree that to edit your own work is ideal, a helping hand in the begining can be the difference between giving up and getting published.

[johnzakour]

And don't mean to sound defensive- but as much as I agree that to edit your own work is ideal, a helping hand in the begining can be the difference between giving up and getting published.

Oh I so agree. Sometimes other eyes just catch things our own eyes miss. I am trying to go pre-editor-less now but I very grateful to those who edited my early books before my editors ever got to see them.

[KTC]

What Orion said.

[Dawnstorm]

I must sound patheric to you all

Not at all. You spent money to cover your weaknesses and learnt things in the process. This is far from pathetic. If you think he's worth his money (and you obviously do) I don't see any problem.

If you don't mind asking me, how did you choose this particular editor in the first place? Sample pages? Reference? (I'm asking because if you happen across an editor who doesn't "get" your style, you may be worse off than without one. I keep hearing from authors how important a good editor is, mostly after they got a new one, either lamenting the old loss, or whooping with joy for the new one. Those are in-house editors, though.)

[NicoleMD]

How you improve your craft really doesn't matter, as long as you're doing it. Hiring an editor is a perfectly legitimate way of learning. You wouldn't consider yourself pathetic for taking a writing class, or buying a book on editing, would you? It's all the same information, just presented in different forms. Some cost more than others, but generally, you get what you pay for.

I used an editor on my first novel, after running it through betas and a crit group and still not being satisfied with my MS. I figure using an editor probably saved me three good years of figuring stuff out for myself, and I can write a much more sophisticated story as a result. I still have more to learn (and forever will, hopefully), but I'm comfortable enough with my current skill set to edit my own work. You really can't appreciate how much you don't know about writing until you know it.

Nicole

[sheadakota]

Not at all. You spent money to cover your weaknesses and learnt things in the process. This is far from pathetic. If you think he's worth his money (and you obviously do) I don't see any problem.

If you don't mind asking me, how did you choose this particular editor in the first place? Sample pages? Reference? (I'm asking because if you happen across an editor who doesn't "get" your style, you may be worse off than without one. I keep hearing from authors how important a good editor is, mostly after they got a new one, either lamenting the old loss, or whooping with joy for the new one. Those are in-house editors, though.)
I don't mind at all- He was a writer on another site I belong to- he is published as well as being an editor. people would ask his help on query letters and synopsises. I e-mailed him through the site and asked him if he would help me with my query-

That is how it started- he helped me with my query and my synopsis (for free) and when I asked if he would read my first 3 chapters as an agent would, he told me it was good but it needed editing- I went on an internet search for an editor and would run them by him.

When he couldn't believe how arrogant and expensive the ones I found were, he offered to edit my MS for me at a VERY resonable price- He worked with me back and forth for 6 months until we were both satisfied. By the end of that time I had discovered a friend as well as a great editor- we ended up working very well together- Now he reads everything I write (For free) and gives me comments on the plot and character development- He is brutaly honest and doesn't let me get lazy- I feel very lucky to have found him-

[sheadakota]

How you improve your craft really doesn't matter, as long as you're doing it. Hiring an editor is a perfectly legitimate way of learning. You wouldn't consider yourself pathetic for taking a writing class, or buying a book on editing, would you? It's all the same information, just presented in different forms. Some cost more than others, but generally, you get what you pay for.

I used an editor on my first novel, after running it through betas and a crit group and still not being satisfied with my MS. I figure using an editor probably saved me three good years of figuring stuff out for myself, and I can write a much more sophisticated story as a result. I still have more to learn (and forever will, hopefully), but I'm comfortable enough with my current skill set to edit my own work. You really can't appreciate how much you don't know about writing until you know it.

Nicole
I agree Nicole- I would still be making all the same mistakes if it wasn't for someone taking my hand and teaching me.

[sheadakota]

Oh I so agree. Sometimes other eyes just catch things our own eyes miss. I am trying to go pre-editor-less now but I very grateful to those who edited my early books before my editors ever got to see them.
I always miss things that seem so obvious to others- It drives me insane- I still consider myself a novice and probably will until I am published. I don't think I am quite ready to cut my editor loose yet- but I am not relying on him as much as I once did.

[Fresie]

A person like this is not really an "editor" or "book doctor" -- it's more like a personal writing coach. I believe, if you can afford it and if the person's worth it, then it's a very good idea. You need a tutor to learn how to do all creative things -- how to paint, to act, to sing, even how to play a game of football. Why should it be any different with writing? We don't expect a would-be artist to take a pencil and just draw until he drops without anyone to teach him things about perspective and such? Apart from showing you how to fix your mistakes, a professional will be able to point out your fortes. If he's good enough, he might help you develop your very own writing style.

PS Talking about it, my personal writing tutor was my school teacher. She was the best! She taught us things about style, outlining, editing, in fact she gave us a huge headstart writing wise, when I think about it. If she came across a cliche -- one cliche!- in an essay she graded the whole thing down! I was really, really lucky to be in her class.

[sheadakota]

A personal writing coach- I like that! That is exactly what he is- He does point out what I do right and as far as my writing style- or voice- I think I developed that before I started working with him.

[wayndom]

My point is - if I had never hired him in the first place- I would never have learned the things I have-

There's a pretty big leap between, "if I had never hired him..." and "I would never have learned..."

Why couldn't you have picked up a copy of Strunk & White? Or any of the other excellent books on editing, like the mysteriously titled, "Edit Yourself"?

I've never used an editor (or read a book on editing), always edited my own work, and when I was published, had only the slightest bit of line-editing applied to my novel.

If you can afford it, I suppose hiring an editor is easier than doing it yourself, but I suspect I've learned more by editing my own work than you have from your editor, simply because I've put so much more hands-on work into the process, and spent so much more time thinking about it.

[sheadakota]

No argument from me wayndom- but allow that different people learn differently- I do have a copy of strunk and white and every self editing book you could name- and yes I have read and studied them all- but I do not learn well this way- I guess I need the confirmation that yes this is what you need to do- reading rules in a book and applying it to my own work just never clicked- I guess you and I are simply wired differently. I was never confident about my writing and I would think not as good as you (THat was meant sincerly) The reassurance of someone I trusted helped me when I was about to give up- I tried everything I could on my own and it wasn't working- the money was hard found, but now I believe well worth it-

Agreed it isn't for everyone, but it is not the worse thing you could do either.

[lostcheerio]

Disclaimer: I'm an independent editor and writing coach. Not trolling for clients, in fact I don't have time this month to take on anyone new. :) I just thought I should mention that to give my opinion a context.

The most valuable thing an editor will do for you is not to fix your grammar and punctuation and stuff like that, although editors certainly will do that if you ask. The best thing an editor can give you is an idea. Maybe more than one.

A good critique partner, professional or not, will read your book carefully, draw back from it, with no personal feelings about you to cloud her reason, and talk about holistic changes. Places where the plot drags, where the characters fail to enchant, where the style flounders. The difference (in my experience) between a regular beta reader and a professional editor is that the editor will give you ideas -- suggest what to do to fix the problem. If she's really good, she'll give you a few possibilities.

All good beta readers can point out problems. Good editors will make suggestions to help you to fix them. This is not to say that an editor is like a doctor who will write you a specific prescription, which you dutifully go and fill, and then the problem goes away. The suggestions, if they're good, will be very open-ended, suggestions that lead you to other possibilities. Maybe the editor will just ask you all the right questions, lead you to the solutions on your own. A good editor gives you new ways to think about your book. This is in my experience as a writer and a reader --

I do think a lot of editors are overpriced and probably a lot are scammers. For me, the job is cool because it's like each manuscript is a puzzle, and each one has a variety of solutions. When I hear an author say something like, "That was a great idea -- I think this can really work!" it feels like that last puzzle piece clicking into place.

[sheadakota]

Thanks for chiming in lostcheerio- that's exactly what my editor has done for me- he is as invested in my characters and books as I am. If I fail to get published, he will feel as if he has failed as well- he is also my cheerleader when I feel like quitting as rejections come flowing in. I am grateful I found him.

[KarlaErikaCal]

I'm lucky that my mom's employer's friend offered to edit for me. She's already edited a statement of purpose I had for the Iowa Young Writers' Studio and she's looking at my creative writing sample for that