First novel compulete!!!! Now I have a few questions

[jedimaster107]

It's finally finished. After 10 years, my first novel is DONE!!!!!!! :tongue:D:hooray::e2cheer:

It's 155k words@ 577 pages (double space new times roman)

Okay on to the questions. I'm sure someone probably already asked some of these and i probably asked one or two of these. And some of these questions are probably stupid. but here goes

Question 1: I already have the ms formated the way it's suppose to be. But when i go through it, i'm noticing either one word and the last sentence of the paragraph ends on the begining of the next page. How do I fix that?


Question 2: At the begining of the novel, I have something formated but i'm not sure if it's correct or not.


The last thing Rachel heard or seen was Jake’s worried face and voice…
“It’s going to be okay, sweetie.”
. . . Before she was engulfed into darkness.



Question 3: In a novel, how do you format when you have a newspaper article, a journal entry and a note within the story? for example,


December 24, 2004
How dare he? He had no right!!! She was meant to be mine! He doesn’t love her like I do! If she realizes the love I have for her, she’ll change her mind. She says she loves him. But I know she doesn’t. He won’t make her happy like I can. I’ll give her the world. When she said yes, I just wanted to rip his head off. How could she do this to me? He will pay for this!

This is a note that appears some where in the last section of the novel. Right now it's kinda in the middle. It's indented on both side so it looks like it's centered. This is how I did the newspaper article and the journal entry.


Question 4: In the story, the main female character hears a voice in her head. The dialogue for the voice is in italics so it blends in with the rest of the other charcter's thoughts. I would like to seperate it, make it stand out. Something like thing: [He’s trying to help. Trust him.]. Would this work? One reason why i would like the Voice dialogue to be different is that the mc and the voice talk to each other. Right now, the Voice dialogue is in italics and the mc's isn't when they're talking to each other. For example:


He’s trying to help. Trust him.
I am. But I have the feeling that he’s keeping something from us.
David will tell in time. He won’t hurt us in any way.
I know David would never hurt me. He’s. . .

Question 5: This is a biggy. through out the novel, the main female character has dreams, which are memories. (She has amnesia). The memories appear random through out. She would be doing something and remembers something. How would you handle this? Right now it's in italics but i'm thinking of maybe a different font? yes? no?

Question 6: One of the chapters near the end is one giant flashback. It's improtant to the story because it shows how everything came to be. I have it italics (yes i loved using italics for everything). So basicly the question is the same as #5. :D

Any help would be much appreciated. I've started working on the synopsis. man it's a bitch to do. Now i know why people hate writing them. :cry:

[blacbird]

Before you get to specifics on any of these questions, you need to define "complete". Have you edited it at all? 155K is pretty long for a first novel to be attractive to an agent or publisher, in most cases. Any number of threads can be found here addressing this issue.

caw

[jedimaster107]

The story is done. I finished up the finally round of rewriting monday. Now it's time to see about getting it published.

[Matera the Mad]

You generally don't worry about formatting very much in a manuscript to be submitted. Nobody cares if sentences end on another page. What does matter is making sure that you do not have errors that you have not seen because you are too closely involved. Have you had it checked over by a few others (family don't count for much, and friends can be worse)?

About the dialogs with the Voice - why not separate the different mental speakers just as you would a spoken dialog?

[jedimaster107]

My mother-in-law read it and fixed some things up. I caught a few typos when going through it. My husband's aunt said she would read, as soon as i get it to her. i won't have anyone at work read. I'm finikle about keeping work and home seperated.

[wayndom]

Question 1: i'm noticing either one word and the last sentence of the paragraph ends on the begining of the next page. How do I fix that?

If you're using WordPerfect or MS Word (or any other full-featured WP), look up "widows and orphans" in the help menu. Widows and orphans are the industry terms for what you describe, and your word processor can automatically eliminate them (by ending the page a line earlier, so the next page has at least two lines of text).

Question 2:

I'm not sure what you mean by formatting here. What I see is a passage that desperately needs editing. "Saw" is past tense, "seen" is past-perfect, and is not used without "had," "has," "have," etc., preceding it.
Bad grammar will most certainly sink any chance of publication, and "The last thing she heard or seen" is really bad on a number of levels (did she see OR hear him? One or the other, but not both? Why would that be?).

Question 3:

The formatting choice you made is correct. However, I have to warn you against using more than two exclamation points (and virtually never use more than one). Even if it's a note written by a character in the novel, over-use of exclams is a blemish on a ms.

Question 4: In the story, the main female character hears a voice in her head. The dialogue for the voice is in italics so it blends in with the rest of the other charcter's thoughts.

While I have no problem with your approach here, you should know that italics aren't used in manuscripts. Underline (which editors recognize as calling for italics) instead. There's no good reason for this, it's just a hangover from the days when all ms's were typed on typewriters (which didn't have italics). Publishing is largely a hide-bound industry.

Given the fact that agents generally don't want to see first novels longer than 110K words or so, and the fact that both the examples you cite and your post itself are shot through with grammatical and spelling errors, I'd say you're another beta-read (by someone well versed in English grammar and usage) and a full rewrite away from querying agents.

[wayndom]

You generally don't worry about formatting very much in a manuscript to be submitted. Nobody cares if sentences end on another page.

This is directly contrary to what I've read in books on getting published, all of which said eliminating widows and orphans is de rigueur, and that leaving them is unprofessional.

And given that all full-featured word processors will take care of them automatically...

[seun]

The story is done. I finished up the finally round of rewriting monday. Now it's time to see about getting it published.

Have you edited as well?

[caromora]

This is directly contrary to what I've read in books on getting published, all of which said eliminating widows and orphans is de rigueur, and that leaving them is unprofessional.

And given that all full-featured word processors will take care of them automatically...

It's definitely best to present your work as professionally as possible, but I took that original statement as saying-an agent/editor reading your book is most likely not going to say, "Oops! They didn't turn off widows and orphans. Guess I won't accept THAT one." If your story is good, it's not going to be a deal breaker. And if your story is bad, whether you turned off widows and orphans is not going to matter anyway.

[jedimaster107]

If you're using WordPerfect or MS Word (or any other full-featured WP), look up "widows and orphans" in the help menu. Widows and orphans are the industry terms for what you describe, and your word processor can automatically eliminate them (by ending the page a line earlier, so the next page has at least two lines of text).

I never knew that was there. I was never tought that.


Have you edited as well?

I edited the hell out of this.

Given the fact that agents generally don't want to see first novels longer than 110K words or so, and the fact that both the examples you cite and your post itself are shot through with grammatical and spelling errors, I'd say you're another beta-read (by someone well versed in English grammar and usage) and a full rewrite away from querying agents.

When it comes to writing, i pay more attention to the spelling and grammar. Writing the story, i knew i'm making the spelling and grammar errors but those are fixed when I'm typing up the story and through edits and rewrites. I'm just worried about getting it down on paper first. Several times I asked my husband who to spell a word or if this sentence sounded right.

I also write to tell the story. I don't worry about word length. If it takes me 80k or 155k to tell the story, that's fine by me.

[megan_d]

The last thing Rachel heard or seen was Jake’s worried face and voice…
“It’s going to be okay, sweetie.”
. . . Before she was engulfed into darkness.

Shouldn't it be "heard or saw?"

[seun]

I don't worry about word length. If it takes me 80k or 155k to tell the story, that's fine by me.

That's cool although bear in mind it might not be fine with agents and publishers.

[Willowmound]

I'm keeping away from this one, I think...

[Siddow]

Make sure you look for mispellings. You've got several in your posts, and one in the post title.

[Charlie Horse]

One of the first things you read when researching manuscript formatting is to leave the widows and orphans turned off. It's a manuscript (and not a final one at that) so it doesn't matter if the last word of a paragraph flops onto the next page. It's not about looking professional. A Professional manuscript will have 25 lines on a page so the editor can determine word count. It gets all screwed up when the lines on a page varies.

And yeah, judging by the numerous mispellings and gramatical mistakes in what little you've shown us, I can only imagine how many more there are in a 155k word manuscript. I hate to say it, but I think you've still got a lot of work to do.

[Prawn]

I would like to say congratulations on finishing your first novel, but let me tell you: editing never ends. When I finish I draft, I like to set it aside for a month or so, and then look at it again with fresh eyes. You are certain to find more errors. Good luck!

[Charlie Horse]

Oh yeah, underline, don't use italics.

[Bufty]

Pop your first chapter into the Share-Your-Work Forum here.

It's a pretty good bet any minor flaws in that chapter - be they grammatical or otherwise - will be scattered all the way through the manuscript, and the exercise may help focus your editing.

[Prawn]

I wish my WIP were compulete.

[OddButInteresting]

Firstly, congratulations on the completion of your novel!

Several times I asked my husband who to spell a word or if this sentence sounded right.

I hope you don't mind my asking, but just how forgiving is your husband? The best advice I give to people seeking criticism is to pick someone neutral.

There was a guy I [used to] chat to over MSN, and he'd always be sending over his short screenplays in search of feedback. I was always brutally honest in my critique, but that's not to suggest that I was unfair. I let him down nicely. But that wasn't good enough for him.

He told me I was mean-spirited, and his scripts must be excellent because his friend/ father/ uncle (who worked in television production)/ family friend (who worked in advertising) told him so. I advised him to send his scripts to someone with which he had no emotional ties, like myself. He then said he wasn't ready for that yet, and despite me warning him that I would be consistently honest were he to send me any more material, he kept on doing it.

The final nail in the coffin was his statement that went something along the lines of "...you're younger than me therefore I don't have to listen to you." He's only a year or so older than I am, and had I been close to him at the time I think I would've punched him.

He blocked me soon after I gave him a rollocking, and we haven't been in contact since. Which is probably a good thing, as you can probably gather that he's extremely stubborn.

If I were you I'd follow Bufty's advice and get some faceless feedback in the SYW forum.

[icerose]

Wow, why would you even bother trying with someone like that, Odd? After the first time of them calling me "mean-spirited" I would have told them to find someone who would just stroke their ego and immediately return any material they sent me.

You have a lot more patience than I do.

[Elladog]

Wow!
Congratulations on finishing your book! That's a really great accomplishment, and isn't diminished in any way by taking the suggestions of everyone here who has suggested that it may need some further editing to clear up grammar and maybe tighten it up some. I'll add my voice to those who suggest having someone other than family and friends look at it.
Good luck!

[jedimaster107]

My husband helped out greatly when he read some of my short stories. I'm just so close to this novel, I told him this morning it's hard to tell what's wrong. I think I'll follow his advice and set it a side for a little bit and do something else.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I better get back to work before someone comes back from lunch.

[ORION]

I don't know why everybody says to underline instead of using italics...I used italics. I did through out my submittal and publication process with William Morris Agency and with Putnam.
This is in several other threads throughout AW introduced on and off again -- and all I can say is at the querying stage for your manuscript use italics. I would discourage you from using any font other than times new roman or courier.

What they do in copyediting (and I don't mean proof reading- I mean at the point that your manuscript that has been accepted for publication is sent to copyediting department by the publisher) is entirely different and each publishing house differs with their house style.
Again-- it is nothing you need worry about until your work is sold.
There are lots of threads here on manuscript preparation...

[ORION]

Sorry off on a tangent.
You need more editing...I agree with the consensus of opinion -- from the short examples you have given-- it appears that you have much more work to do.

[Stew21]

You really need to look hard at the word count and consider reducing it. You have to slay your darlings to make it the best manuscript it can be before you submit it.
Regarding Italics - pay attention to what Patricia (Orion) said above. She knows.
Also, entire large passages of italics is probably not a great idea. It's hard to read.
Consider setting it apart with an extra space between the paragraph before the flashback and another after. You may even want to mark it with a centered ### or something before and after that section.
Italics should be used sparingly and in small doses.

[Miguelito]

Maybe you should put some stories about nukular weapons in your compulete novel. ;)

[dempsey]

ORION, I love you for saying that.

I was chatting with a friend earlier, she explained that underlines were a holdover from when everything was typewritten and italics weren't an option. She said, moreover, that long stretches of italics were hard for some folk to read.

I replied, "Long stretches of italics are easy for me to read. Long stretches of underline look awkward. In fact... I think I hate the underline. There. I said it. I hate underlining. When MLA told me to italicize book titles instead of underlining them, I gave a sigh of relief."

I am so, so pleased to have you say that. I was sad with the thought that I would have to hunt out my beautiful, elegant italics and stack the words on the unrefined underline.

[Shweta]

My husband helped out greatly when he read some of my short stories. I'm just so close to this novel, I told him this morning it's hard to tell what's wrong. I think I'll follow his advice and set it a side for a little bit and do something else.

That's generally the best thing to do when you're close to a story :)
Set it aside for a bit and start writing a new, even better one.

[Greenwolf103]

jedi, I understand what you are saying about relying on your husband for editing help. Believe me, when I am able to bully, er, ask my husband to read a story of mine, he offers very helpful, logical advice.

But he has never, ever given me the advice to make a story the kind that could sell. Ever.

You know where that advice came from? Not my sister-in-law. Not my mother. Not my favorite aunt or uncle. OTHER. WRITERS. Editors have also been helpful. We writers know what to look for and how to offer sound criticism that would help you to make your story even better.

May I strongly suggest you look elsewhere in getting feedback on your work? I agree you need some spelling and grammatical help, but editing your story is more than just eliminating typos and fixing grammatical mistakes. A lot more.

Good luck.

[dreamsofnever]

First of all, congratulations for getting a whole story out. It's tough to stick with it and I admire you for doing so.

I will say this though-I've been at points with my work in progress where I thought it was complete, only to go back and realize that there is still a decent amount of work to do. It's frustrating, but with each edit, I've learned something new and gotten it that much closer to being publishable. It sounds like that is your end goal here, so it's important to research what agents you would like to submit to and what their individual preferences are. Some agents will say that word count doesn't matter, but others are VERY strict on their word count (as in, they won't accept anything above or below certain word counts. typically the max is 120k), so it's important to find an agent that will be open to your word count or take the opportunity to take another look at what could be pruned from your current work. I will warn you that in my resarch, I've found that even those agents who don't state a word count limit might shy away from works that are too long.

But that's enough on the word count. In the end, it's your story and you have to do what you feel is right for the story.

As for some of the other questions, I would say never use different fonts in a manuscript. Most agents also have preferences on fonts (usually either Times New Roman or Courier) and like their manuscripts to be in said font. Italics should work well for both thoughts, though you should probably use a 'thought tag' when it's the voice in her head. Like <i>you should trust him</i>, said the voice in her head.

As for flashbacks, those are more tricky to pull off. I think italics should be used sparingly, as three or four pages of italics might be tough on the eyes. I think it's all about trusting the writing to stand on its own and give a sense of past vs. present, and trusting the reader to be smart enough to understand that they are in a flashback without having to have it put in a different font, underlined, or italicized. The best way to do this is to do the same type of break you would for a scene change (some people will just do two hard returns in their doublespacing. Some will also use this symbol: ------ to show a scene change) Once you change scenes, use something to show the reader it's the past. Interactions with different characters, entirely different settings, etc. Once the scene is finished, you can have her 'come to' and maybe reflect on the flashback as she tries to piece her past together in her mind.

That's just one example of how to handle it. There are plenty of other ways to effectively handle flashbacks. I'll check my book collection tonight to see if I can find any books that handle it really well and if I can, I'll recommend them to you. :)

[Matera the Mad]

Never mind some of the smart-alecks, but do listen to the wise old knobs who say that editing is never (well, hardly ever) finished. Taking a month away from the work will allow you to get some distance from it, let you see it with more objectivity. It is easier then to see not only overlooked errors, but things that might not be contributing enough to the story. We all get carried away with detail and love of our characters. But getting published can mean sacrificing some of the extras. Hey, I recently cut off a charming winding-down chapter because I figured it would be seen as too anticlimactic. Saving the good meat for another story, of course ;)

[dawinsor]

I'm reading Elizabeth Kostova's The Historian, which contains a number of letters, all set in italics, so that would seem to be an option.

[NicoleMD]

I discovered over 200 errors in my highly polished final draft after I had Windows Narrator read it to me. It's the tiny words that get me every time.

And as for italics, really it's not that hard to read. I don't know why people make such a big deal about it.

Good luck with your manuscript.

Nicole

[dawinsor]

IAnd as for italics, really it's not that hard to read. I don't know why people make such a big deal about it.

The empirical research on italics does show that they're harder to read. Not a "big deal" exactly, but true nonetheless.

[talps]

I believe the OP had concerns about italicizing a character's thoughts, yes? If this is the case, then I'd certainly go with italics over underline.

Seriously, I've never seen thoughts underlined. Consider the two examples below:



Slowly she approached, and I couldn't have been more nervous. Make eye contact, don't stammer, I thought to myself, but when she smiled, all I could say was, "Gurfle dibble wanna Dorito?"

and then the same using underlining...

Slowly she approached, and I couldn't have been more nervous. Make eye contact, don't stammer, I thought to myself, but when she smiled, all I could say was, "Gurfle dibble wanna Dorito?"

Maybe I'm missing something, 'cause this debate seems really simple to me.

Italicize thoughts if you're choosing between the two.

[wayndom]

I don't know why everybody says to underline instead of using italics...I used italics. I did through out my submittal and publication process with William Morris Agency and with Putnam.

I got published in 1991. I'd assume that by that time, virtually every novelist was working on a word processor instead of a typewriter, but still, editors insisted that all ms's be in courier (because it looks like typeface) and use underlining to indicate italics (because typewriters don't have italics).

I've actually read quotes from editors to the affect of, "I can't read a manuscript in anything but courier -- I get headaches."

Several years later, I heard that some editors would finally accept ms's in Times New Roman, but since "some" isn't "all," I kept using courier.

If editors are accepting Times New Roman and italics, it's fine with me. I just haven't heard any authoritative source say the old ways are finally in the past.

[Matera the Mad]

It is best to find out what the exact requirements are and format accordingly. You might use a good screen-readable font for writing but change it and "save as" however many times is necessary to please different agents/publishers. Some are strict, some don't give a toot-berry.

[icerose]

Tor still requires the underline to indicate italics and squiggly underlines to indicate bold. Their reason is so the production department (I'm having a mental blank so forgive the generic name) can easily find the spots that need a different type face and has nothing to do with ease of reading.

As with all agents and publishers check their specific submission guidelines and follow them to a T.

[Klazart]

I don't see why people are jumping all over the OP about spelling and grammer.

I don't bother too much to edit my posts for such things on absolute write or any other forum for that matter, unless I'm posting a part of my work in SYW for critique then obviously I try to get it up to scratch. That doesn't mean that my manuscript itself is lacking in grammer or spelling.

Many people just don't see the need to be as fastidious about such things in casual conversation. Obviously there are extreme exceptions, and I wouldn't be volunteering the same defense of someone who is using "txt" speech.

[ORION]

The original poster was asking about how to format for querying -- not what the conventions are for copyediting when a work is in production with the publisher...
I repeat that when I submitted my manuscript electronically to Putnam after final edits I did not have to do anything but use TNR, and italics or bold where I wanted...
I still recommend setting a manuscript aside for several weeks and then aggressively editing --after that sending the manuscript through a few rounds of beta readers who are NOT related to you...LOL

[Bufty]

No sensible prospective Agent is going to reject anyone's submitted work simply because the writer used italics as opposed to underlining.

[Pup]

I don't see why people are jumping all over the OP about spelling and grammer.

I don't bother too much to edit my posts for such things on absolute write or any other forum for that matter, unless I'm posting a part of my work in SYW for critique then obviously I try to get it up to scratch. That doesn't mean that my manuscript itself is lacking in grammer or spelling.

Problem is, one of the glaring grammatical mistakes was in a quoted excerpt from the novel, not the post itself.

[icerose]

Okay then, I'll address the original questions even though I wasn't going to touch this one.

It's finally finished. After 10 years, my first novel is DONE!!!!!!! :tongue:D:hooray::e2cheer:
Congrats. Ten years is a long time to commit to a single project.


Question 1: I already have the ms formated the way it's suppose to be. But when i go through it, i'm noticing either one word and the last sentence of the paragraph ends on the begining of the next page. How do I fix that?

Don't worry about it, it doesn't matter.


Question 2: At the begining of the novel, I have something formated but i'm not sure if it's correct or not.


I have no idea what you're asking here. "Something formated" doesn't give me anything to answer. Everything should be formatted, so I hope you have something formatted in the beginning. If you want an answer on specifics then you'll have to post it in the SYW.


Question 3: In a novel, how do you format when you have a newspaper article, a journal entry and a note within the story? for example,

I keep it simple and make it look like a journal entry, newspapers I just quote have it indented in all the way down so it's set apart from the rest of the text. It's just how I do it. Even though this probably isn't romance, harlequin has an excellent formatting guide that answers a lot of basic questions. Their site is easy to find.


Question 4: In the story, the main female character hears a voice in her head. The dialogue for the voice is in italics so it blends in with the rest of the other charcter's thoughts. I would like to seperate it, make it stand out. Something like thing: [He’s trying to help. Trust him.]. Would this work? One reason why i would like the Voice dialogue to be different is that the mc and the voice talk to each other. Right now, the Voice dialogue is in italics and the mc's isn't when they're talking to each other. For example:

Leave it that way in italics and not bracketed off. If the submission guidelines ask for underline instead of italics that's easy enough to change.


Question 5: This is a biggy. through out the novel, the main female character has dreams, which are memories. (She has amnesia). The memories appear random through out. She would be doing something and remembers something. How would you handle this? Right now it's in italics but i'm thinking of maybe a different font? yes? no?

Do not do these in a different font. Italics will be fine and consider strongly cutting these down. They tend to do more cluttering than helping but this is your story, you make the call. But do not differ the fonts.


Question 6: One of the chapters near the end is one giant flashback. It's improtant to the story because it shows how everything came to be. I have it italics (yes i loved using italics for everything). So basicly the question is the same as #5. :D

Any help would be much appreciated. I've started working on the synopsis. man it's a bitch to do. Now i know why people hate writing them. :cry:

An entire chapter in italics is pretty long. I would consider just representing it as a straight forward text and make it clear it's a flashback. Whether or not you even use the flashback is a whole other thing, but I won't get into that.

Good luck and do know you will be judged by your mettle as a professional writer by how you present yourself in your queries and all communications with agents and editors and so forth, so make an effort to be flawless.

What you do with your manuscript is up to you and whether or not you go with a beta outside your family is up to you but please note you will not get unbiased feedback if they're inside your circle and they will let things slide that outside betas would not.

[ORION]

ice rose - WELL DONE

[funidream]

The original poster was asking about how to format for querying -- not what the conventions are for copyediting when a work is in production with the publisher...
I repeat that when I submitted my manuscript electronically to Putnam after final edits I did not have to do anything but use TNR, and italics or bold where I wanted...
I still recommend setting a manuscript aside for several weeks and then aggressively editing --after that sending the manuscript through a few rounds of beta readers who are NOT related to you...LOL

A big giant DITTO from me. As ORION and I are both published by imprints of Penguin, my experience at Berkley mirrors ORION's.

I will add when I was submitting manuscripts to agents, I formatted it using TNR and italics to make the reading experience comfortable and smooth. I hate reading Courier. Agents are not copyfitting or typesetting. They are reading a story. Underlined type is interruptive and hard to read.

When I was submitting the electronic version to my editor to begin the production process, she wanted the same New Times Roman with italics word doc that generated the paper manuscript she had read.

It is one of the copyeditor's responsibilities to assign style, and every house has set styles already in place for such things as inner monolog, book titles, songs, poems, epigraphs—you name it. They go through a paper manuscript in color pencil and sticky notes and assign the style types by code. After the author reviews the copyeditor's marks, the manuscript heads to the production department, and it comes back to the copyeditor and the author in the form of galley proofs all formatted to size, typeset and pretty, for a final pass. These galley proofs are also what are bound and sent out as advance reader copies to reviewers, hence the big UNCORRECTED PROOF FOR LIMITED DISTRIBUTION-NOT FOR SALE across the top of the ARCs.

A manuscript that has one inch margins around, is double spaced in TNR or Courier (although I think TNR is easier on the eye and saves on paper) and uses italics where the author sees fit will never get rejected for format.

Be it query letter, synopsis, first fifty pages or full manuscripts it should be as crisp and clean and tight as you can manage. Using italics isn't what gets pages tossed into the recycle bin.

[young_zee]

IMHO you now really need to do your 10 years' work justice by EDITING over and over again. Get others to read it and criticise it, don't let them hold back, you may have to do a rewrite etc. From your examples in the first post, as many have already said, I'm afraid you still have a long way to go until it's the best it can be. It's not a nice thing to realise but hey, every single person here is in the same boat at some time or another. Good luck.

[girlyswot]

IMHO you now really need to do your 10 years' work justice by EDITING over and over again. Get others to read it and criticise it, don't let them hold back, you may have to do a rewrite etc. From your examples in the first post, as many have already said, I'm afraid you still have a long way to go until it's the best it can be. It's not a nice thing to realise but hey, every single person here is in the same boat at some time or another. Good luck.

*laughs hollowly*

[wayndom]

I did not have to do anything but use TNR, and italics or bold where I wanted...

Could someone tell me what TNR is?

[icerose]

Could someone tell me what TNR is?

Times New Roman. It's a common and often defaulted font face. It's what newspapers use.

[wayndom]

Times New Roman. It's a common and often defaulted font face. It's what newspapers use.

Thanks. Duhhhhh...

[Birol]

Congratulations on finishing your manuscript. I wish you the best of luck with it.


The rest of you, do not let this thread get out of hand. Remember, it is possible to be direct and honest without being cruel.

[Bufty]

Excuse me!!!????

You are in a boat all on your lonesome, friend.

IMHO you now really need to do your 10 years' work justice by EDITING over and over again. Get others to read it and criticise it, don't let them hold back, you may have to do a rewrite etc. From your examples in the first post, as many have already said, I'm afraid you still have a long way to go until it's the best it can be. It's not a nice thing to realise but hey, every single person here is in the same boat at some time or another. Good luck.

[young_zee]

girlyswot, Bufty, that other thread was closed. Just leave me alone, please. You have no idea what effect your comments might have on people. You all stand up for acts of helping people and that is well, but you don't seem to mind having a go at people on the internet, however funny and petty it may seem to you.

Yes I made a mistake, I sent off my query when I hadn't edited the MS, and I know how stressed it made me. I at least tried to make something productive of what I experienced by warning them to edit a lot, especially if they've spent 10 years on it. By the 'boat' I meant editing, and every writer has to do that.

I don't want this thread to be a continuation of the other, it is someone else's thread.

[Birol]

I don't want this thread to be a continuation of the other, it is someone else's thread.

It won't be.


Girlyswot, Bufty, Shweta and I have both noted the continued poking.

Young_zee, you have the choice not to respond. Despite the fact that the individuals' frustration with you was expressed a bit too strenuously, it was not without reason.

[Suprswimmer]

I have a question, what is the name of the book, and what is it about? A summary would be nice, its just difficult to give editing advice when you dont know the full story...

[Bufty]

My comment, YZ, which strangely seems to have upset you, was intended as a light-hearted knuckle-rap to follow your own advice, when suggesting the OP allow others to criticise her work.

And there was no indication that the 'editing' aspect was the communal 'boat' to which you referred.

No intentions of upsetting or hurting you, friend, but if you can't stand the heat....

And stop making a mountain out of a molehill. You deleted all your posts from the other thread in a fit of pique. If the thread was closed, why resurrect mention of it here? I hadn't read it all until you referred me back to it.

This post probably gets me shunted off to sleep somewhere quiet for a while but you're going to have to learn to lie in your own bed.

girlyswot, Bufty, that other thread was closed. Just leave me alone, please. You have no idea what effect your comments might have on people. You all stand up for acts of helping people and that is well, but you don't seem to mind having a go at people on the internet, however funny and petty it may seem to you.

Yes I made a mistake, I sent off my query when I hadn't edited the MS, and I know how stressed it made me. I at least tried to make something productive of what I experienced by warning them to edit a lot, especially if they've spent 10 years on it. By the 'boat' I meant editing, and every writer has to do that.

I don't want this thread to be a continuation of the other, it is someone else's thread.

[Matera the Mad]

I wouldn't blame jedimaster107 if she never returned to this thread.

[Terran]

Nor I.

[Shweta]

Welp, either it'll go back to useful comments, or we'll close it.
It's pretty much up to you guys what happens; we'll just implement it :)

[icerose]

I wouldn't blame jedimaster107 if she never returned to this thread.

I hope she does come back. I hope she reads this thread again, gleans out some useful advice, gets some solid beta readers and finds the better novel inside her current one.

Good luck jedimaster107, and all other writers out there like you.

[Suprswimmer]

GOOD LUCK!
:):):):):):):)

[James D. Macdonald]

This is directly contrary to what I've read in books on getting published, all of which said eliminating widows and orphans is de rigueur, and that leaving them is unprofessional.

And given that all full-featured word processors will take care of them automatically...

Which books on writing and publishing would those be?

Yes, your wordprocessor will take care of them automatically. Go into your wordprocessor and turn that feature off.

[Bufty]

Jedimaster, 10 years is a heck of a lot of work.

You should be proud to have reached the end. Yes, knocking up a synopsis can be a real struggle, as can producing a workable Query letter. And on top of that the editing and polishing can lead to much head-scratching and cussing.

Sorry if I seemed to contribute to de-railing your thread. The SYW sub-Forums can be of help in giving one pointers if they're needed. I see you have used it already a wee while back.

Good luck to you.

[aruna]

I don't know why everybody says to underline instead of using italics...I used italics. I did through out my submittal and publication process with William Morris Agency and with Putnam.
This is in several other threads throughout AW introduced on and off again -- and all I can say is at the querying stage for your manuscript use italics. I would discourage you from using any font other than times new roman or courier.
.

Oh, this is so true! Please don't worry about underlining. I did that with one manuscript after I read that on AW. Underlined everything that was suposed top be in italics. Sent it out. One agent who commented was totally confused as to why I had underlined this and that.

Trust me, at this stage you don't have to worry much about formatting. As ORION says, the publishing house will do that.

[jedimaster107]

The title is called "Mind Games"

Basicly it's about a pyschopath who becomes obessed with a writer and kidsnaps her and erases her memory and makes her think she's his wife. The writer's real husband comes looking for her and all heal brakes loose.

As for beta readers, i've been told from family to co-workers not to give it out to be read. This happened to a friend of my mother-in-laws. The friend wrote a poem, gave it to another freind to read. The other freind said it wasn't any good. My mother-in-law's freind saw her poem several months later in a magazine under her freind's name. the other freind stoled the poem and then submitted it under her/his name. So tha's why i don't get a beta reader. I don't want someone sealing my work. If i found out someone did stole my story and got it published under his/her name, i'd probably go postal and be devistated.

This story has become my baby in some ways. Before i never took the whole thing out of the house in fear of loosing it. When i compeleted a round of editing, i didn't toss it out. It went into a box for my in-laws to burn. I'm just too scared of someone finding it and putting it in their own name.

Hell, i'm like with all my stories.

[Willowmound]

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[megan_d]

A poem is a lot easier to steal than a MS. I would get a beta reader, or at least post the first few pages in the Share Your Work forum.

[Queen of Swords]

Getting a novel published isn't easy. You have to write a query letter, write a synopsis, maybe even write up a marketing plan, research agents and publishers, send out the queries and keep track of them, send out partials, send out fulls, be prepared to discuss the work when an agent or editor calls, make revisions for the agent, make revisions for the editor and make revisions for the copyeditor. :)

A plagiarist who stole your manuscript would have to do all that PLUS work out some way to cover himself or herself when the inevitable lawsuit hit, with the plaintiff being someone who could produce plenty of evidence to show that she and not the defendant wrote the manuscript.

See why it's highly unlikely that anyone is going to steal your book and try to publish it under their own name?

[IdiotsRUs]

If i found out someone did stole my story and got it published under his/her name, i'd probably go postal and be devistated.

As far as I'm aware. as soon as you have written it it is your intellectual property, and therefore protected as such. PROVIDED you can prove it's yours. The best way to do this, if you want a beta reader, is to make sure you have more than one person look at it. That way, if one of them tries to steal it ( pretty unlikely tbh), the others can vouch that it is yours.

I've also heard suggested lodging a copy with your solicitor ( attorney), e-mailing yourself a copy, posting yourself a copy etc, so it is date stamped.

Besides that of course, it's probably not quite finshed ( ie needs a little polish) so anyone who tried to steal it would still have to work on it.

I can't actually think of any books that have been published after being stolen that way, and I pretty sure it would be known about by quite a few people if it happened at all often.

However if you're at all unsure, why not get beta readers for say the first three chapters. Any advice they coudl give about that portion would go for the rest of teh work anyway, and they may be able to see problems that you can't, being too close to the work.

[Momento Mori]

IdiotsRUs:
I've also heard suggested lodging a copy with your solicitor ( attorney), e-mailing yourself a copy, posting yourself a copy etc, so it is date stamped.

That's known as "poor man's copyright" and it doesn't work.

jedimaster107 - copyright exists the moment you've finished your manuscript, so provided you keep electronic copies of your manuscript and hard copies, it's very, very unlikely that anyone will take your work.

I understand that you think of your work as your baby, but part of the editing process is to learn how to distance yourself from it so you can make the right choices to make your manuscript work as a whole. This isn't just a question of making sure the grammar and spelling is correct - you also have to consider the story in the round, which could see you adding or dropping scenes/characters/plot strands. I would encourage you to post your opening chapter on SYW where you will get honest feedback on what you've done. The problem with getting friends and family to read your work is that often they do hold back on comments because they don't want to discourage you.

MM

[Charlie Horse]

You really need someone with a clear command of the English grammar and spelling to read through your work. It's impossible for you alone to catch everything. If you're as close to this project as you say you are, you want the very best for it, and at this point only someone else can give that to your baby. Think of it as sending your child off to school. Unless you're a professional educator, your child's education is going to be much better served by turning it over to a professional.

[IdiotsRUs]

That's known as "poor man's copyright" and it doesn't work.

Fair enough. I'd just heard it suggested.

*ponders* I wonder why it doesn't work?

[icerose]

If you are desperately worried it will get stolen, register it with the US copyright division. That way even if someone did, you'd have solid proof of it and you could sue the heck out of it and recieve full damages.

However, the chances of anyone stealing anybody elses work is slim to none. Ideas might be another thing because they aren't copyrightable, however no two writers are going to present it the same way either.

[aruna]

Nobody steals manuscripts from an unpublished author. It's as simple as that. It may be your baby, but it is worth nothing to anybody else.

Your posts here suggest that you might need to work on your spelling and grammar. You may have the best story in the world, but if it is not in professional clothes agents are unlikely to even look at it.

[Bufty]

Jedi,

You raised all this stealing/protecting the manuscript stuff in a FAQ thread months ago and you seem to have totally ignored all the advice therein.

[Charlie Horse]

Taking this line of thought one step further, if ripping off other's manuscripts were common practice, how do you then trust agents, editors, or anyone else along the lines travelled to the promised land of publication? It's not something you can or should ever worry about. You write so others will read, pure and simple.

[Diane]

*ponders* I wonder why it doesn't work?

Because all you have to do is mail yourself an empty, open envelope, and hang on to it. Then when Harry Potter/Da Vinci Code/Fred's Fishing Guide hits it big, type up the book, stick it in the envelope, seal it, and say, "Hey look! I mailed this to myself FIVE YEARS AGO."

[Terran]

Jedi;

I'm glad to see the thread didn't scare you off.

I just want to say that there are many people on this board who have years of experience in all aspects of the craft.

(I am not one of them, so you can take this post or leave it as you will.)

I would recommend that you at the very least seriously consider some of the advice you have received here. 10 years is a long time to invest and it would be a shame to have wasted it by not taking every opportunity to improve your MS before submitting it.

The Newbie.

[newshirt]

Don't bother with italics, underlines, orphans, or any other stylistic modifications. Focus strictly on the content. All that other stuff can be added at the very end, if the paragraphs still exist. The page layout boys will change it all anyway.

After a few dozen editing sessions, a lot of things can change. Even entire chapters can go.

And try to make the text flow so naturually that you don't need the stylistic effects. Think of them as needless fluff that becomes unnecessary with an engaging story.

[wayndom]

Which books on writing and publishing would those be?

Writing the Thriller, by Andre Jute, Beyond the Bestseller and Be Your Own Literary Agent, by Richard Curtis, various articles in Writer's Market.

And why would you want to have widows and orphans in your ms? Someone here mentioned that a ms should have 25 lines of text per page, but that's just a general assumption. If it were a requirement, we wouldn't start a new chapter a third of the way down the page. With widow/orphan control on, the penultimate page of a chapter will have 24 lines, and the last will have 2. With it off, the penultimate page will have 25, the last will have one. No one counts lines per page, but widows and orphans are jarring to see, which is why they're avoided (and why word processors come prepared to deal with them).

Maybe you've never cared about widows and orphans, and had no trouble getting published, but that doesn't mean that removing them will make your work less likely to be published.

[wayndom]

As for beta readers, i've been told from family to co-workers not to give it out to be read. If i found out someone did stole my story and got it published under his/her name, i'd probably go postal and be devistated.

While I'm not recommending this (I agree with everyone else that it's not necessary) you can register your copyright for $45. Just go here: http://www.copyright.gov/register/
where you'll get complete and easy instructions on registering your copyright.

Everything you write is copyrighted the moment you write it, but registering your copyright (a) makes it easier to prove it's yours, should you wish to, and (2) entitles you to sue for more money in the event that your copyright is violated.

You absolutely need to get feedback from non-friends/family if you hope to get published, so if registering your copyright is necessary for your peace of mind, at least now you know how to do it.

But whatever you do, don't send a ms to an agent or publisher with any kind of notation that it's copyrighted -- it's the mark of the rank amateur.

[Birol]

No one counts lines per page,

Editors and publishers do.

but widows and orphans are jarring to see, which is why they're avoided (and why word processors come prepared to deal with them).

I've never been thrown out of a story by widows and orphans. I've never been thrown out of a story by having just one line, or even just one word, on a page. If the writing is solid, if it captures my attention fully, I don't even see the words or the page. All I experience is the story.

[blacbird]

If the writing is solid, if it captures my attention fully, I don't even see the words or the page. All I experience is the story.

Well, there is the issue of the magenta bold letter gothic font on chartreuse paper . . .

caw

[icerose]

Heck, I've seen professionally published books with one sentence and even one word on a page. They keep x amount of lines per page, even in the final product.