Why do people charge money for critiquing?

[BlueLucario]

NO, I'm not asking for crits anywhere. No it has nothing to do with a forum. I was cruising around the web before I joined the forum. and came across several site that offer critiques. All of them costs money, like 275.00 for a critique. Why do people charge for that? Could these critiques be some sort of scam? This has been in my head for months. I can't stand it!

I hope this isn't a stupid question.

[Danger Jane]

Some people advertise themselves as professional editors or manuscript doctors, and while it's not necessarily a scam, there isn't really much of a reason to pay for their services because of resources like this forum, where there are literally thousands of potential critique partners posting every day. No reason to lose sleep over the possibility of a professional editor.

[els]

Because they are WAY smarter than those of us who give it away. Grin.

I know a couple of people who charge for crits, and they are pros in the business. You get what you pay for. But I'd want to know their credentials and publishing history before I laid out the money for a professional crit, for sure.

[blacbird]

Why do people charge money for mowing your lawn? For fixing your car? For preparing your tax returns?

caw

[BlueLucario]

Why do people charge money for mowing your lawn? For fixing your car? For preparing your tax returns?

caw

Because it covers something. I don't see what the payment covers when critiquing.

[Danger Jane]

Because it covers something. I don't see what the payment covers when critiquing.

They get paid for their services and their time. Just like a professional editor. And like those services, professional editing is completely optional. Thousands of writers get along without paying a dime for editing.

[IdiotsRUs]

Because it covers something. I don't see what the payment covers when critiquing.

The time it takes them to do it. The expertise they hopefully have. Just like that IT guy you call to help fix your PC.

OFC if you know how to fix your own PC it won't cost a penny :)

[Toothpaste]

The time is what is being covered.

Yes it is lovely to find someone to do a critique for you for free, like people here do, but to critique an entire MS is very time consuming, especially if you engage in a dialogue with the author (I mean Blue, you for example, post only a couple of pages of your work and ask enough questions to fill several pages of one thread - there is nothing wrong with that, but you can see how if someone critiqued your whole work how many questions might be involved, and how those questions themselves are VERY time consuming).

While yes it is ideal to find a beta reader who is willing to give up his/her time to read your work, to do you a MASSIVE favour, they are nonetheless going above and beyond the call of normal friendship. That's why in the SYW forum, people remind the people who are getting a critique to thank the critquers because they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

Some people out there are not scammers and still charge to critique a work because of the time required. Also these legitimate critiquers tend to be editors for publishing houses, or have a lot of experience and knowledge, as opposed to say some random friend you choose to beta read. You are paying them also for their experience.

The key is to make sure the person is worth paying, that they are legitimate.

[veinglory]

A good professional book doctor offers certainty and a proven track record of making work publishable. For example a free critique may make a book better but they are unlikely to spend the time and effort to make it literally publishing-ready so it could go on the shelf tomorrow.

Just because something can be done by an amateur doesn't mean there can't be a professional class/level also.

[dpaterso]

I won't tell you how much my writing buddy just paid a recommended professional editor to tidy up his novel before he submits the mss. But it sure as heck wasn't $275. That's loose change.

-Derek

[timewaster]

I did seriously consider doing some pro critiquing work for a very good Uk based group specialising in YA. I am a quick reader and even so I found it took too long to make the fee worth while.
The company were not a scam outfit and only employed professional writers who had demonstrated a certain level of competence. I assure you anyone going to them would be getting excellent value for money. It takes a while to do properly and while it is relatively easy to crit a short piece on word level stuff it is harder to give sensible advice on a whole novel - structure, plot development, sub plots, theme pace etc.

Quite a lot of people can write really good paragraphs, but joining them up into something bigger seems to be a different skill. IMHO

[Will Lavender]

I won't tell you how much my writing buddy just paid a recommended professional editor to tidy up his novel before he submits the mss. But it sure as heck wasn't $275. That's loose change.

-Derek

:eek:

[Queen of Swords]

NO, I'm not asking for crits anywhere. No it has nothing to do with a forum. I was cruising around the web before I joined the forum. and came across several site that offer critiques. All of them costs money, like 275.00 for a critique.

I crit here because I can crit as little or as much as I like, and because many people here have commented on my own work in exchange.

But if I had to sit down before a manuscript with errors in spelling and grammar and punctuation, or with problems in characterization and plot and style, if I had to read that baby to the end and make notes on every page - heck yeah, I'd want to be paid for it too.

[Birol]

Critiquing takes time and is work, Blue. It is a service. Nothing is really free. When people offer critiques without charging a fee, they are either offering their time and efforts as a gift or as barter. By barter, I mean: 1) If I critique you, I can learn and grow through the process, 2) If I critique you, then you or others will critique me. Those who critique as a gift are often "paying it forward," doing for others what was once done for them.

[SpookyWriter]

Critiquing takes time and is work, Blue. It is a service. Nothing is really free. When people offer critiques without charging a fee, they are either offering their time and efforts as a gift or as barter. By barter, I mean: 1) If I critique you, I can learn and grow through the process, 2) If I critique you, then you or others will critique me. Those who critique as a gift are often "paying it forward," doing for others what was once done for them.I'm more in the #1 category. Although sometimes I wonder if what I'm reading is going to help me better write or drive me into a blissful slumber of insanity.

[BlueLucario]

I'm more in the #1 category. Although sometimes I wonder if what I'm reading is going to help me better write or drive me into a blissful slumber of insanity.

Is this why you love to critique?

[Susan Breen]

Some years ago, I hired a critiquer to go over my novel. At that time, I was home full-time with my children and there was no way I could go to an MFA program. I had gone to some workshops, but I wanted someone to go over my whole 300 page manuscript and give me detailed feedback. I met with this woman over a period of months and it was wonderful. She gave me written analyses of each chapter and, most importantly, she helped me learn about the pacing of the whole thing. That book was never published, but I learned so much that I felt it was worthwhile. You have to make sure you are finding a legitimate person and you need to know what you hope to get out of it. But I don't think there's any shame in hiring someone.

[aruna]

The time is what is being covered.

...............................

While yes it is ideal to find a beta reader who is willing to give up his/her time to read your work, to do you a MASSIVE favour, they are nonetheless going above and beyond the call of normal friendship. That's why in the SYW forum, people remind the people who are getting a critique to thank the critquers because they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

Some people out there are not scammers and still charge to critique a work because of the time required. Also these legitimate critiquers tend to be editors for publishing houses, or have a lot of experience and knowledge, as opposed to say some random friend you choose to beta read. You are paying them also for their experience.

The key is to make sure the person is worth paying, that they are legitimate.

Words of Toothpaste wisdom, as usual!

I crit here because I can crit as little or as much as I like, and because many people here have commented on my own work in exchange.

But if I had to sit down before a manuscript with errors in spelling and grammar and punctuation, or with problems in characterization and plot and style, if I had to read that baby to the end and make notes on every page - heck yeah, I'd want to be paid for it too.

Not only that. If someone agrees to crit my work for free, then it would be brazen of me to say, please get it done in three weeks. I am dependent on their good will to get it finished in a timely fashion. And if they put it aside because of more pressing duties, I can not say, hurry up, please. If I have paid a professional, legitimate person with a good reputation I know exactly when I will get my work back, and that is important to me.

Critiquing takes time and is work, Blue. It is a service. Nothing is really free. When people offer critiques without charging a fee, they are either offering their time and efforts as a gift or as barter. By barter, I mean: 1) If I critique you, I can learn and grow through the process, 2) If I critique you, then you or others will critique me. Those who critique as a gift are often "paying it forward," doing for others what was once done for them.

Again, correct. And since I am simply not in a position--for reasons of time--to crit for someone else in return I would not ask anyone at this point. It's a huge undertaking if it is worth anything (a whole novel, I mean) and I don't expect people to do so out of the goodness of their heart.

For my first novel I used a crit service. She was wonderful. Not only was she worth every penny of the £300 I paid (for a 500 page ms), she afterwards passed the ms on to a fantastic agent, who took me on immediately and sold my book to a big publisher in a week.

In the UK it is quite the norm for many first time novelists to use a crit service, and there are quite a few very successful ones (successful, in that the critted books have have subsequently been published). Many of these services have connections to people in the publishing industry and can give you a referral. Many of them employ published authors.

One example in the US is Caroline Upcher, a well published novelist. She does not advertise and is definitely not a scam.

[dpaterso]

Is this why you love to critique?
I'm more in the #1 category. Although sometimes I wonder if what I'm reading is going to help me better write or drive me into a blissful slumber of insanity.
No, he's telling you he's insane!

-Derek

[maestrowork]

Because it covers something. I don't see what the payment covers when critiquing.

What? So you think critiquing someone's 500-page ms. doesn't take time, effort, and expertise, just because there's nothing tangible such as a hamburger?

Messy lawn -> pristine lawn = $$$ services rendered

Messy ms. -> detailed critique notes = $$$ services rendered


You have a choice, of course. You can mow the lawn yourself or hire a professional landscaper. You can ask Joe Smoe on the street to critique your work for free or a professional writer/editor for cash. Your choice. But don't expect something for nothing. There's always cost.

[BlueLucario]

What? So you think critiquing someone's 500-page ms. doesn't take time, effort, and expertise, just because there's nothing tangible such as a hamburger?


No no, I meant if a critique covers something materialistic, like pencils. I thought the critter just crits just for the sake of profit.

[Birol]

Blue, I don't understand that last post. It's not making sense to me.

[Devil Ledbetter]

No no, I meant if a critique covers something materialistic, like pencils. I thought the critter just crits just for the sake of profit.To borrow Ray's analogy, there aren't a lot of people who are going to mow your lawn for the sheer pleasure of it, and only ask that you pay for their gas.

[PattiTheWicked]

It doesn't matter if they do it for the sake of profit or not. What matters is that they do it well. The trick is figuring out if they're legitimate or not. If they are, it could be worth it to pay them.

If I pay someone to cut my lawn, I don't care if they do it for the love of lawn, or for the cash. What I care about is that they do it right, and it looks really good afterwards.

[Birol]

If I'm now following Blue's pencil comment -- I might love to crit or enjoy helping people learn or have a passion for language and story, but I still have to eat.

[maestrowork]

No no, I meant if a critique covers something materialistic, like pencils. I thought the critter just crits just for the sake of profit.

I still don't get your point. Cover what? We can only charge for things such as pencil and ink? Do you understand that "service" alone is a fee-based business?

Some services require "supplies" (lawn mowing, house cleaning, laundry, etc.) and some don't (financial advices, tax filing, consulting services, travel arrangements, speaking engagement) -- people pay for the advice and expertise. "Manuscript critique" belongs to the latter.


But anyway, I tell you what. I'll critique your ms. for free, as long as you cover the cost of my red pencils, at about $200 each. Deal?

[IdiotsRUs]

Blue look at it like this. You don't get to be an editor overnight. It takes a long time to get good.

IE, my hubby fixes PC's. If your PC suddenly goes weird and you can't get on teh net, he will fix it. No parts, no costs other than petrol.

BUT, and this is the important bit, you have to pay him for that fact he knows what he's doing. The fact that he's spent 15 years doing this, mostly as a very low paid techie gaining experience, that he spends time keeping up with the latest technology. His expertise.
( as the old joke goes, that will be £10 for thumping it, and another £50 for knowing where to thump it)

These critiquers are earning a living, and you are paying for what they provide - hopefully good solid advice. Same as MacDonalds. Do they sell you burgers at the cost of the beef?

[Linda Adams]

No no, I meant if a critique covers something materialistic, like pencils. I thought the critter just crits just for the sake of profit.

Welcome to the world of business. There are small service-oriented businesses that charge for time. When I take my car to the mechanic, they charge me for the parts and an hourly rate for the mechanic's time. If it's an oil change, it's relatively inexpensive because the mechnaic is not spending much time with the car. On the other hand, if he takes a week to find an electrical short in the car, the time really adds up. It also means that while that mechanic is spending a week trying to fix the car, he's not fixing the twenty cars that come in during that week.

The same is true for a professional critiquing service. They might receive a project that it's pretty well polished and just needs minor suggestions. That won't take as much time as something that needs a lot work. And, like the mechanic, they're charging for a service that the customer needs or wants and can't do himself.

So the time itself is valuable. When I do critiques, I usually pick and chose what I want to do. If a work looks like it's going to consume more time than I want to spend, I don't critique it. Likewise, if do a critique and get the impression the writer has blown off the critiques or has gotten hostile, I don't waste my time with them again. We actually kicked members out of our critique group because they wasted everyone's time by bringing back works with the same problems over and over.

[Danger Jane]

Blue, I recently got a new cell phone. Online, I could have bought it direct from Verizon for ten bucks. Instead, I went to a wireless store and bought that exact same phone for fifty. The difference is for the services and time of the man who set up the phone for service. I could have done it myself...but I had better things to do that day than spend two hours on the phone with a Verizon rep.

Did he have any supplies? Nope, just a phone and a computer. I had to pay for his services and his expertise.

It's the same with a critique service. No supplies required, just time and expertise.

[SpookyWriter]

It's the same with a critique service. No supplies required, just time and expertise.But aren't the supplies exactly what you needed? Time and expertise experience are critters supply. Yes?

[BlueLucario]

Now I get it. Time right? You know how the old saying goes, "Time is money."

[Toothpaste]

And effort. You aren't reading the posts thoroughly again Blue. Go back and look over them. It isn't just the time they are paying for, it is the effort and expertise as well.

[BlueLucario]

And effort. You aren't reading the posts thoroughly again Blue. Go back and look over them. It isn't just the time they are paying for, it is the effort and expertise as well.

Yes I have. I'm sorry guys, it takes a while to process what is being said.

[BlueLucario]

Yes Yes I get it now. Time and Effort, with that a critter does deserve something in return.

[HeronW]

That's their job based on years of experience and study. Ask for samples before spending your $. A technical editor is wasted on fantasy, a fantasy editor may be clueless about computers.

[SpookyWriter]

Yes Yes I get it now. Time and Effort, with that a critter does deserve something in return.So you are comfortable with paying someone to critique your work?

[BlueLucario]

So you are comfortable with paying someone to critique your work?

Yeah, with anything he requests. If i let him get away empty handed that's when I'll feel really bad.

[Angelinity]

why do professionals charge for their services?

'cause they're selling you expertise.

[IceCreamEmpress]

I apologize for blowing a fuse, Blue. I see you understand now why people charge for critiques. Can I suggest to you, though, that you not jump into paying for critiques too soon.

Seconded.

Blue, the last thing you need is more critiques. What you really need to learn to do right now is a) finish a work by yourself, and b) edit it yourself. THEN is the time for critiques.

What you're doing now--writing 500 to 1000 words, posting it all over creation, getting a ton of feedback, then moving on to the next 500 words--is not how people write novels.

By which I don't mean "this is not how I write a novel," though of course it isn't; the way I write a novel is almost certainly not the best way to do it. There are a lot of ways to write a novel. What you're doing right now is not one of them.

You have drive. You have energy. You have ideas you're passionate about. Those are all useful qualities for an aspiring writer. However, none of those mean jack all without the focus and determination to actually get a project done.

And yes, I know that you have some neurological and psychological challenges to deal with. So do a lot of people who actually write books and get them published, some of whom are on these boards. Finding ways to work with and around those issues is going to serve you well in the long run.

For instance, you often say "It's hard for me to process new information" when you're asking repetitive questions on a thread. So it seems you understand that this is a challenge you experience. And yet, you don't change your behaviors in response to that challenge--I have friends who have visual processing issues, including dyslexia, who read threads and posts over and over to be sure they understand them before posting a response.

I don't know if that approach would work for you, or if there's a different approach you need to take. But you need to do something differently, because you're frustrating a lot of people, including yourself.

[BlueLucario]

Seconded.

. But you need to do something differently, because you're frustrating a lot of people, including yourself.

Hey, I didn't mean it. And I'm not asking for any critiques right now. I was just asking because I was curious.

[Toothpaste]

Blue, how do you feel about the rest of what Icecream wrote to you?

[BlueLucario]

Blue, how do you feel about the rest of what Icecream wrote to you?

Pretty Guilty. Asking for critiques is very tempting, dunno why. I don't need any right now. I hope I didn't waste anyone's time.

[Thatshim]

hey Blue, you are doing good, man.
There are things that are more than money.

[mscelina]

*hands KFC the beeswax*
Your horns are showing again. Might be time to polish them up again. ;)

[IceCreamEmpress]

Pretty Guilty. Asking for critiques is very tempting, dunno why. I don't need any right now. I hope I didn't waste anyone's time.

Blue, you're wasting your own time. That's what's concerning me. Everyone else, including me, can just skip over your posts if they don't have time to respond.

But it makes me frustrated to see you spinning your wheels like this. It's not about trying to make you feel "guilty"--my wish for you is that you understand that your current approach to writing is not going to get you where you want to go.

Writing is lonely work. People who want to be writers really need to face that, or they're not going to attain their own goals.

[BlueLucario]

Thank you, IceCreamEmpress. I feel a bit better all ready.

[Rowdymama]

First, Blue, I don't see anything wrong with your idea, it could be a very compelling book. But to make it so, you need to have something to say about the subject - new insights that you have come up with on your own, through study and experience. I don't think you said whether this book will be fiction or non-fiction.

As for critiques, I do them, and I do get paid, but mentoring works better, for me and especially for the writer. When mentoring a writer, I guide them through the entire process, for $2 per "lesson," usually a page or page and a half of advice tailored to the particular problems they are having. This method removes the necessity for critiquing, revising, etc. I can get a writer through an entire book for less than $50, usually. It's always better to prevent mistakes being made rather than have to go back and fix them - "preventive composition," you might call it. I've been writing, studying, teaching, editing and mentoring beginning and advanced writers for 40 years. I have a BA in communications, and consider myself a professional, so I charge for what I do.

I tell my clients, if you go to a forum for critiques, remember this: half the people there won't know any more about the process than you do. A good critique tells you not only what works and what doesn't, but why, and how to fix it. If the critic can't give that kind of information, their critiques are not worth much.

[Provrb1810meggy]

A good critique tells you not only what works and what doesn't, but why, and how to fix it. If the critic can't give that kind of information, their critiques are not worth much.

I actually disagree with this. Sometimes, if the writer knows what doesn't work for the reader, they'll be able to figure out the why and the how. It's their job to fix it, after all, though of course it does make the process easier if you have the why's and the how's from the beginning.

I also wanted to add to Blue that just because there are professional critiques which cost money, it doesn't mean you need to get one, and it, by no means, is a requirement to have a good novel or to become published. Many become authors without ever having to pay for a critique. They instead rely on beta readers, forums such as this, and most of all, themselves.

It's a personal choice if you want a professional critique or not, and I'm sure for some it's been worth the investment and for some it hasn't. Just wanted to make that clear.

[Queen of Swords]

A good critique tells you not only what works and what doesn't, but why, and how to fix it. If the critic can't give that kind of information, their critiques are not worth much.

There can be several ways to fix a problem. Let's say that a story is bogging down because of a big flashback at the start. There are several ways to fix this - delete the flashback, work the flashback events gradually into the story, start with the flashback, make the flashback the body of the story a la Shirley Conran's Lace. I don't think the responsibility for figuring out all this should be on the shoulders of the critiquer, such that their critique isn't worth much without it.

[Karen Duvall]

Blue, have you considered entering writing contests that provide critiques of entries? I know of a few excellent ones that you might consider entering. And its an opportunity to get your work in front of an editor or agent if your scores are high enough for you to be a finalist.

It's too late to enter the PNWA (Pacific Northwest Writers Association) contest, or Crested Butte Colorado's "The Sandy." But Rocky Mountain Fiction Writers Colorado Gold Writing Contest is just around the corner. I've been judging that one for the past twelve years, and many of the finalists and winners have gone on to have successful careers (ex: C.E. Murphy, Robin D. Owens, Jeanne Stein, among others). If there's a contest announcement thread around here, I'll post info about it when it becomes available.

There's also the Paul Gillette Writing Contest sponsored by Pikes Peak Writers in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The next one won't be coming around until this fall, though.

I'm currently helping judge The Sandy, and it's very time-consuming. I don't get paid for it, but when it comes to helping fellow writers, I'm a sucker for volunteering. Sigh. :Shrug: I think it takes great courage and fortitude to enter a writing contest, and I applaud those writers who put themselves out there like this. It's a great opportunity for feedback, and for getting some professional interest from the agents and editors who determine the winners.

The average cost for a writer's contest, at least for the ones I've mentioned here, is about $30.

[Sophia]

I tell my clients, if you go to a forum for critiques, remember this: half the people there won't know any more about the process than you do. A good critique tells you not only what works and what doesn't, but why, and how to fix it. If the critic can't give that kind of information, their critiques are not worth much.


I strongly disagree with this, and think it borders on insulting to post it on a writers' site where members give of their time freely to give requested feedback to others.

'Why, and how to fix it' is the ideal, but most people here are writers, not writing teachers. Part of learning to write is reading widely, listening to the experiences and advice of others, and spending a lot of time applying that knowledge to our writing and trying to improve. Successful writers put in a lot of work to get their writing to the publishable stage, and sites like AW are here to bring together writers as they work towards their goal.

If someone is not prepared to put in the work, and has the money to spend, then professional critique services are obviously the best way to go. I am guessing that most people here are not in that position. To expect to come to this site, post a story and then have someone tell you exactly what to do to fix it is unreasonable. Your comment read to me as saying that it is not unreasonable, and had overtones of an advertisement for your services. I don't know whether the advertisement itself is against AW rules. I do feel that your suggestion that the critiques here that don't tell the poster how to fix their story's problems are not worth much is doing a disservice to both the poster in terms of what they can get out of AW if they give it a chance, and the writers here who give thoughtful and informed feedback.

[steveg144]

They charge for it for the same reason anyone charges for anything: there's someone willing to pay for it.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

I tell my clients, if you go to a forum for critiques, remember this: half the people there won't know any more about the process than you do. A good critique tells you not only what works and what doesn't, but why, and how to fix it. If the critic can't give that kind of information, their critiques are not worth much.

I'm not sure I agree with this completely myself. What I want from a critique is some insight that helps me improve the work.

The best way I find to get that is to read each critique as something which tells me what that reader got from my work. If that differs from what I was trying to get across I know I've got a problem, and work on that. Unless it's a specific technical issue I find that "how to fix it" advice isn't that useful as the critiquer may not have the background knowledge of what else is happening in my work to see which otherwise excellent options are right out.

Having said that, I'd say that what might help you Blue is to get more done between crit sessions. As a long form a novel has a natural ebb and flow to it, and working in chunks that small make it too easy to miss the forest for the trees. Get enough written to have a feel for the piece as a novel, and then you'll be in a better place to take advantage of critiques.

[Dale Emery]

Another reason to charge for critiquing (or any other request for advice) is to test the client's commitment. People won't pay a fee unless they're committed.

Now, that doesn't mean that everyone who's committed will pay a fee, of course. Some folks can't afford the fee no matter how committed they are, and some can find good advice at lower cost.

But filtering out uncommitted clients is one function of a any consultation fee.

Dale

[Bufty]

Really?

I'll keep hold of my $50 'whole-book' mentoring fee, thank you.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77529



As for critiques, I do them, and I do get paid, but mentoring works better, for me and especially for the writer. When mentoring a writer, I guide them through the entire process, for $2 per "lesson," usually a page or page and a half of advice tailored to the particular problems they are having. This method removes the necessity for critiquing, revising, etc. I can get a writer through an entire book for less than $50, usually. It's always better to prevent mistakes being made rather than have to go back and fix them - "preventive composition," you might call it.


....I tell my clients, if you go to a forum for critiques, remember this: half the people there won't know any more about the process than you do. A good critique tells you not only what works and what doesn't, but why, and how to fix it. If the critic can't give that kind of information, their critiques are not worth much.

[CatMuse33]

Rowdymama,

Sorry to threadjack, but I have to ask... How do you make money charging only $2 page? I can understand if you have the series of lessons pre-written, say they take you 20 minutes to write, and you mail each one to 10 students...that's $60/hour. Not bad. :)

And it's residual income, essentially... no outlay of work once the lesson is written other than to select which lessons fit which student.

BUT, you say that you customize your lessons for each student, telling them what works and what doesn't, and why, and how to fix it. That's not something that can be taught in a one-size-fits-all lesson!

Therefore, each lesson you write is individual... has to be written fresh each time. I can't imagine turning something like that out in LESS than 15 or 20 minutes. That's not much money, about $8/hour. AND that's not even counting *reading* time for the mss., marketing your business, etc. so now you're down to a very low wage.

I don't mean to offend you, I'm just very curious as to how your low-cost business model *works* for you in terms of a reasonable income. Or are you doing it more out of the goodness of your heart, and the nominal fee is to sift out the lookie-lous, make sure people are serious, etc. (As someone pointed out, one way to gauge whether a person is committed is to charge a fee, albeit nominal.)

Dawn