What's a "Mary Sue" character? (aka Marty Stu, Gary Stu)

[FunkyBunny]

Examples and description needed please!

I thought it was when a writer put themselves in the story, as a love interest - mostly in FanFic.

Or is it when your hero is so Mary Poppinsish (practically perfect in every way) that they're just annoying? Like - her worst trait is that she bakes cookies and cleans when she's nervous.

I guess I'm just confused.

[HoosierCowgirl]

I think you are on the right track. If you Googl (as I did a couplle of weeks ago) Mary Sue and some other information like "fictional character" you should get some hits. I even found a pop quiz to guess whether your characters are Mary Sue's. I blush to admit they had some tendencies towards that.

I also Googled on "romance tropes" b/c that's what interested me and got some interesting results.

Hope that helped ...
Ann

[dpaterso]

Funny, I thought it referred to an old flame, or a "Bond girl" or similar guest character who turns up out of nowhere, thus giving the main character some background/history, but then suffers an awful fate in order to leave the main character (who otherwise wouldn't ever change) emotionally damaged.

But, Wiki disagrees with me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

-Derek

[Toothpaste]

A Mary Sue can appear a lot in fan fic. It is basically a character based on the author, but based on an idealised version of the author. So the MC always gets the girl, is witty and brilliant. If the author has issues with their appearance let's say, the Mary Sue would as well, but would also be able to overcome it and get to date the hottest kid at school etc.

A Mary Sue often has no flaws, and acts as fantasy fulfillment for the author.

There is nothing wrong with an author doing this if they really want to. The problem is that often the character is quite uninteresting to the reader, and usually unrealistic, making the story weak and unreadable.

[Fanatic Rat]

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

[RedScylla]

With a brutal honesty. I've got a character--not the main character--who is largely based on me. She has my annoying habits and personality traits. Her sister can't stand her. She has an inflated opinion of her own intelligence. Yeah, it's me, and it's distinctly not Mary Sue-ish.

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

[dreamsofnever]

Toothpaste said it well. A Mary Sue can also be a character based on what the author wishes they were like. Or based on the author, but without a realistic self-aware view of the author's flaws/shortcomings.

Usually Mary Sues are accompanied with long drawn-out descriptions of their omg!sospeshul!looks. A lot of Mary Sues I've seen have deep plum-colored orbs, hair that is blonde with naturally bright red streaks, or whatever. And they usually have special powers and usually everyone loves them. (except sometimes the main male character, who starts out hating them but then falls in love with them)

There are Mary Sue litmus tests out there. If you google that, you'll find the test.

but really the big thing is to just make your characters three dimensional. Give them flaws, give them ordinary hair color and features. (sometimes. it's okay to have your character have a distinctive feature too! just within reason)

Most of all, don't substitute purple prose descriptions of your character for moving the plot forward.

Just create a character who is not perfect and not loved by all and use your word count for plot-crucial developments instead of describing the characters beautiful features, etc.

If you want a really good place to see Mary Sues in action, www.livejournal.com/users/pottersues is a really great place. They are Harry Potter sues, but it still gives you an idea of the characteristics and poor writing that demonstrate a Sue.

[jst5150]

Again, for context, from Wikipedia and verified through other sources (and adding to Derek's post):

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot on such a scale that suspension of disbelief fails due to the character's traits, skills and abilities being tenuously or inadequately justified. The concept is particularly characterised by overly idealized and clichéd mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Mary Sues can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Gary Stu", "Marty Stu", or similar names.

While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such. Another definition of Mary-Sue is a character who is too perfect to be true, i. e. one with too many positive character traits compared to actual character flaws, or being remarkably attractive in comparison to the other characters.

[BlueLucario]

Examples and description needed please!

I thought it was when a writer put themselves in the story, as a love interest - mostly in FanFic.

Or is it when your hero is so Mary Poppinsish (practically perfect in every way) that they're just annoying? Like - her worst trait is that she bakes cookies and cleans when she's nervous.

I guess I'm just confused.


Mary Sue(Or Gary Stu for males) Are perfect characters, who are there just for the author's wish-fufillment. Totally poor characterization. They are like all-perfect, no flaws or weaknesses, they are nothing like natural people.

Examples of Mary Sue from other Media.

-Kim Possible
-Harry Potter
-

I had more characters in mind but I forgot unfortunatly.

I think you should go here!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

[Menyanthana]

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

I did that. I get angry easily, so I gave this personality trait to a male character, along with some other parts of my personality. He doesn't look good (he is bald, not very tall and his face isn't very attractive, either), beats his servant and yells at people. However, he is in a position which allows him to behave as he does.

My only reader seems to like him in spite of all this, and never complained about Mary-Sue tendencies. (I posted the story in a forum and haven't yet found out if the others do not like the MC or don't read the story out of other reasons.)

[BlueLucario]

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

That's what every author does with all of their characters. It's okay for them to put a little bit of themselves in them, to a certain degreee. This is sort of where the "wish-fufillment" comes in. The author fantasizes himself as the President of the United States because he wishes he was the president.THAT'S a Mary-Sue. When you read books with MarySue's it should be obvious to you that it is.

[IdiotsRUs]

I've got a character based on me, well kinda ( yes, I too have walloped someone with a poker). But she has her flaws. I hope....Maybe I should give her some better nastier ones.

[DeleyanLee]

Ah, the good ol' days of fan fic, back in the misty depths of time. I remember the original Mary Sue story, back in the ancient days of Star Trek fic. And a merry ol' Sue she was too.

Basically, the original problem with Mary Sue was that she wasn't so much a wish fulfillment character or that she was the author-in-the-story. It was that she could out-command Kirk (and people listened), she could out-logic Spock, she could out-smartcrack and out-doctor McCoy, she could out-engineer and out-drink Scotty, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

What was wrong with her was that she stole the thunder of the story from the established canon heroes that most fans read for. Not that she was wish-fulfillment, but that she just de-characterized everyone else in the story. Pissed a lot of people off, which is why, more than 30 years later, people still remember the character's name as derogatory.

Now, that's what she started off as in the 70's. Apparently the term is now used for castigate any character that someone thinks is a little too powerful, a little too sexy, a little too whatever.

Personally, if Harry Potter and Anita Blake and such are Mary Sues, I'd take a look at what they've done for their authors' careers and take note--there must be something RIGHT going on there, wouldn't you think?

[AZ_Dawn]

There are Mary Sue litmus tests out there. If you google that, you'll find the test.
But how good are these tests really? I sent my least Sue-like character through 2 of those tests. One (http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm) said he had Sue-like tendancies; the other (http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html) said he was the Anti-sue.:Huh:

[BlueLucario]

There are Mary Sue litmus tests out there. If you google that, you'll find the test.



Heh, true but some tests are pretty useless IMO. You probably really don't need the test if your characters have any psychological flaws.


but really the big thing is to just make your characters three dimensional. Give them flaws, give them ordinary hair color and features. (sometimes. it's okay to have your character have a distinctive feature too! just within reason)

Most of all, don't substitute purple prose descriptions of your character for moving the plot forward.

Just create a character who is not perfect and not loved by all and use your word count for plot-crucial developments instead of describing the characters beautiful features, etc.



I agree with this one. Making a character like that is not that difficult IMO. In fact characterization is pretty easy.

[IceCreamEmpress]

.
Personally, if Harry Potter and Anita Blake and such are Mary Sues, I'd take a look at what they've done for their authors' careers and take note--there must be something RIGHT going on there, wouldn't you think?

Harry Potter isn't a Mary Sue. He may be an over-idealized hero at times, but he's certainly not a Mary Sue.

Anita Blake wasn't always a Mary Sue. The first few books in that series were, despite their limitations, engaging explorations of paranormal action/adventure/suspense in a modern urban setting. But the last several books have been embarrassing wish-fulfillment on the part of the author, as the lines between Blake and herself seem to have blurred.

To me, it's the wish-fulfillment factor that's the key to Mary Sue-dom.

[DeleyanLee]

Harry Potter isn't a Mary Sue. He may be an over-idealized hero at times, but he's certainly not a Mary Sue.

Anita Blake wasn't always a Mary Sue. The first few books in that series were, despite their limitations, engaging explorations of paranormal action/adventure/suspense in a modern urban setting. But the last several books have been embarrassing wish-fulfillment on the part of the author, as the lines between Blake and herself seem to have blurred.

To me, it's the wish-fulfillment factor that's the key to Mary Sue-dom.

Someone mentioned HP upthread, so I repeated it. And whenever published Mary Sues are mention, Anita (and/or Merry Gentry) usually comes up since the characters look exactly like LKH.

I don't think any original character can be a Mary Sue, honestly. But, then, I seem to have a different operating definition of them than most people. That's what I get for being old. LOL!

[jamiehall]

I think of a Mary Sue as a character who has few (or no) flaws in an annoying way, has way too many abilities/powers that are too perfect, and who is loved by nearly everyone inexplicably.

Typically, a Mary Sue learns everything too fast and doesn't make mistakes. A Mary Sue tends to derail the narrative structure, making the story into a non-story about something that would be nice to experience but lacks plot tension and so is often boring or annoying to read. In other words, everyone would love to be Mary Sue but nobody wants to watch Mary Sue (except for the perverse thrill that comes from reading awful writing).

http://community.livejournal.com/marysues/profile is a particularly good community for understanding Mary Sues.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Someone mentioned HP upthread, so I repeated it.

Yes, but I'm arguing that Harry Potter isn't a Mary Sue at all.

And whenever published Mary Sues are mention, Anita (and/or Merry Gentry) usually comes up since the characters look exactly like LKH.

Anita Blake doesn't look like Laurell K. Hamilton in the first couple of books. She's half-Latina and half-Anglo, for one thing. Seriously, that series is so bizarre--it starts out as a shoddily written but interesting few books and then turns into a collection of the author's wish-fulfillment fantasies and psychodrama.

I don't think any original character can be a Mary Sue, honestly. But, then, I seem to have a different operating definition of them than most people. That's what I get for being old. LOL!

Well, I think that people have broadened the concept from "idealized self-insert in fanfic" to "idealized self-portrait in fiction".

But Harry Potter doesn't meet either definition, whereas Anita Blake meets the second one very well.

I can't comment on Merry Gentry, because those are so horrible as to be entirely unreadable in my opinion.

[badducky]

It's like the literary equivalent of a sock puppet.

[dreamsofnever]

But how good are these tests really? I sent my least Sue-like character through 2 of those tests. One (http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm) said he had Sue-like tendancies; the other (http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html) said he was the Anti-sue.:Huh:

They're not very good at all honestly. Sorry, I didn't mean to advocate them above.

And, like you said, there are different results based on the tests. And some tests are so set on one fandom or another (and there are different trends for Mary Sues that occur whether in a fandom or genre type)

I say just worry about creating a character that feels real and then show character development through your plot/narrative.

This is sort of off-topic but not really. On that harry potter sues link I posted above, there was one where the author literally spent whole paragraphs describing everything the Sue was wearing by brand name. Make-up and all. It was like half a page of just brand vomit. Now if you start doing that, then you KNOW you've got a problem! lol.

[IceCreamEmpress]

It's like the literary equivalent of a sock puppet.

That is just beautiful. YES YES YES. Best characterization ever. I'm quoting you from now on.

[She_wulf]

Mary Sue/Marty Stu's in literature.

Sam Spade
James Bond
Dante Valentine
John Taylor
Cat Crawfield
Puss n' Boots
The Three Musketeers
Vlad Taltos
Harry Dresden
Merideth Gentry
Anita Blake
MacKayla Lane
Frodo Baggins
Bilbo Baggins
The Hardy Boys
Nancy Drew
Encyclopedia Brown

...

More?

:( I like all of the Mary/Marty's on this list.

[Menyanthana]

Frodo is no Marty Stu. He is not a better fighter than Aragorn, he isn't a better archer than Legolas, and he doesn't look better than Legolas either. ;)
And he does make mistakes.
It's a long time ago I read the book, but I think, Bilbo is no Marty either.
Don't know about the other characters, but I think you don't have to worry.

[She_wulf]

Frodo is no Marty Stu. He is not a better fighter than Aragorn, he isn't a better archer than Legolas, and he doesn't look better than Legolas either. ;)
And he does make mistakes.
It's a long time ago I read the book, but I think, Bilbo is no Marty either.
Don't know about the other characters, but I think you don't have to worry.
I mentioned them because they have a "mystical object" that sets them apart. That same mystical object gives them weaknesses.

See: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm

Frodo also inherits Sting from Bilbo (a pointy object, magical, owned by someone else...)

Bilbo had an "unnatural" inquisitiveness that set him apart from other Hobbits.

They both have furry feet.

Bilbo AND Frodo had rebellious personalities which got them into trouble.

Bilbo gets away with theft, betrayal and lying.

Frodo is unable to form intimate relationships (As is Bilbo) and NO, Sam doesn't count.

Bilbo is wealthy. Frodo inherits the wealth

Hobbits have good singing voices

They both at one point or another possess the ring of power capable of bringing the big bad (Sauron) down.

Bilbo (and Frodo, I think) know how to speak Elvish.

Bilbo bungles stuff a lot and is forgiven for it.

Frodo befriends Smeagol and Smeagol reforms, goes bad again and redeems himself in death

Frodo is adopted. His parents are dead.

both Sauron and Sauruman have fixations on the ring and as a side attachment on Hobbits...Frodo and Bilbo in particular.

the Fellowship members were meant to die for Frodo.

Frodo and Bilbo save the day magically, almost die in the process, and are revived/healed and rewarded for their efforts.

Bilbo's weight is a subject of humor and is out of shape at the beginning of the story. Frodo's health fails as the story progresses

Bilbo runs away from the dragon and the goblins because he's a coward


They are a lot more Marty Stu than you realize.


Amy

[She_wulf]

Frodo is no Marty Stu. He is not a better fighter than Aragorn, he isn't a better archer than Legolas, and he doesn't look better than Legolas either. ;)
And he does make mistakes.
It's a long time ago I read the book, but I think, Bilbo is no Marty either.
Don't know about the other characters, but I think you don't have to worry.

Also,

Aragorn is SOOOOO a Marty Stu.

:P

As is his intended...I'm spacing the name. You know, Liv Tyler...

Amy

[Menyanthana]

Bilbo runs away from the dragon and the goblins because he's a coward

Cowards aren't Marty Stu...at least not if you define a Marty Stu as "perfect"

Yes, there are a lot of typical Marty Stu things, but Frodo and Bilbo both lack perfectness for being perfect Marty Stus ;)

And they both aren't self-insert of the author.

[KikiteNeko]

*ahem* A Marysue, as I've come to learn from my days writing and reading fanfiction, is a perfect character. Attractive, agreeable, wonderful in every way. A could do no wrong character. It's meant as an insult, since people don't generally want to read about a completely flawless human being.

Other opinions may vary. That's what I learned though.

[She_wulf]

Cowards aren't Marty Stu...at least not if you define a Marty Stu as "perfect"

Yes, there are a lot of typical Marty Stu things, but Frodo and Bilbo both lack perfectness for being perfect Marty Stus ;)

And they both aren't self-insert of the author.
OK, they aren't perfect. But if you put them into the "test" they are dangerously close to becoming Marty Stu's.

Bilbo scored a 45 even with the cowardly traits included.

36+
Fanfiction authors, you might just want to start over. Role-players and original fiction authors, at this point your characters are likely to provoke eye-rolling and exclaimations of "yeah, right!" from your readers. (Well, at least from me.) Immediate workover is probably in order.
Frodo was a 29
22-29
Some definite Sue-like tendancies here. A little polishing might be in order to put original fiction and RPG characters back into the balance, especially if Kirking is involved. Fanfiction characters should probably have some work done.

the magical object portion killed them.


Amy

[DonnaDuck]

Another aspect of a Mary/Barry Sue/Stu is that everything seems to work out for the character, regardless of the situation. Nothing can go wrong, they know all the answers or otherwise the answers fall in their laps. This is the reason why I believe Harry Potter is a Stu. Not in the self-insert aspect but the fact that everything just seemed to fall in place for the kid, especially in the final book. I mean, come on. Ron randomly spitting Parseltongue and, by chance, stumbling upon real words that'll open the Chamber of Secrets because "he's heard Harry use Parseltongue"? Right. Right. Twice in his life he's heard Harry use it and he knows enough to fumble around the language and come upon real words. That's like me adding vowels to the end of all my words and hoping to stumble upon something Italian. I never liked Harry Potter, the character, anyway but as the series went on and all those this became more prevalent, I could stand him even less. I could go on, but I'll end my tangent here.

And Litmus Tests are pretty worthless. There are only so many personality traits and physical features to go around so, eventually, if you write enough, you'll end up with characters that share such features but as long as you don't idealize your character as nothing more than a perfect you, you'll be fine.

[BlueLucario]

And Litmus Tests are pretty worthless. There are only so many personality traits and physical features to go around so, eventually, if you write enough, you'll end up with characters that share such features but as long as you don't idealize your character as nothing more than a perfect you, you'll be fine.

Heh! I totally agree with this. Litmus test are pretty useless. How would you feel if you took a dumb test that tells you what your character should and shouldn't be? It ruins creativity.

Should you really be concerned that your characters are Sue's? Write your character in any way you want, just don't make them perfect. Characterization is not that hard.

[DonnaDuck]

Characterization is not that hard.

That's a bit of a misnomer, don't you think? That's like saying writing isn't that hard. Is it hard to create a character with looks and a personality? Eh, not really. The hard part is making the character believeable and relatable. Anyone can create a character but creating a character that people actually want to read about is where the "not that hard" stops. Just like, I'm sure, anyone can write 100,000 words which would constitute a book. It's making it good enough to read that's the hard part.

[underthecity]

I had to give this some thought before I posted a response in this thread, but here goes.

My MC could technically be labeled as a Gary/Marty Sue because he is--for the most part--based on me.

But not exactly like me.

Greg encompasses all of my worst qualities. Although he has a lot of drive and succeeds at some level, what he does succeed at goes terribly wrong (need conflict, right?). His obsession with his project drives his wife away (and while I get obsessed with my own projects, I balance them with my marriage). He abuses his position at his job, using it to further his project, and ends up getting fired.

And so on.

So while I used myself as a model for Greg, he is more like my Mr. Hyde to my Dr. Jeckyl.

allen

[BlueLucario]

That's a bit of a misnomer, don't you think? That's like saying writing isn't that hard. Is it hard to create a character with looks and a personality? Eh, not really. The hard part is making the character believeable and relatable. Anyone can create a character but creating a character that people actually want to read about is where the "not that hard" stops. Just like, I'm sure, anyone can write 100,000 words which would constitute a book. It's making it good enough to read that's the hard part.

I thought it comes naturally. I'm being a bit pedantic aren't I?

[Susan B]

Took the test and came out a non-Sue, in fact "could probably use a little spicing up without hurting the character any!" Got a kick out of that, because my worry had been that the MC shares some characteristics with me, and is frequently chided by her more interesting sidekick as being too cautious, too staid, ought to color her grey hair. I'd worried she was a certain kind of anti-Sue :-)

[sassandgroove]

OH, there was a thread the other day about Mary Sues and I’ve been mulling it over since then. This is GREAT! That’s why my novel that is ‘breathing’ right now doesn’t work. HAZZAH! What a revelation. I think I can make it work now. My characters in it have been with me since I was a teen, so they’re fantasies. I think I can flaw them up without too much trouble. There was already enough conflict, they just were too pretty, too well liked, too perfect at things. THANKS AW!



A Mary Sue often has no flaws, and acts as fantasy fulfillment for the author.
Toothpaste said it well. A Mary Sue can also be a character based on what the author wishes they were like.

BINGO!
That is it exactly. I hated being 13 and felt I was ugly and terribly uncool. Mean while my fantasy life had girls that were cool, thin, tall, beautiful....
That's what every author does with all of their characters. It's okay for them to put a little bit of themselves in them, to a certain degreee. This is sort of where the "wish-fufillment" comes in. The author fantasizes himself as the President of the United States because he wishes he was the president.THAT'S a Mary-Sue. When you read books with MarySue's it should be obvious to you that it is.
See I disagree. I used to want to be a rock star. I used to want to be a ballerina. I think I can write a character who is a muscician or a dancer who still has flaws and comes across as real.

Examples of Mary Sue from other Media.

-Kim Possible
-Harry Potter
I have to disagree. I can’t speak to Kim, but Harry Potter has many flaws. He is full of anger, he jumps to conclusions, he acts on impulse. he repeatedly needs to learn to trust and to ask for help. Even at the last book he has to be convinced by Ron and Hermione that he needs help and can’t do it alone.

Another aspect of a Mary/Barry Sue/Stu is that everything seems to work out for the character, regardless of the situation. Nothing can go wrong, they know all the answers or otherwise the answers fall in their laps. This is the reason why I believe Harry Potter is a Stu. Not in the self-insert aspect but the fact that everything just seemed to fall in place for the kid, especially in the final book. I mean, come on. Ron randomly spitting Parseltongue and, by chance, stumbling upon real words that'll open the Chamber of Secrets because "he's heard Harry use Parseltongue"? Right. Right. Twice in his life he's heard Harry use it and he knows enough to fumble around the language and come upon real words. That's like me adding vowels to the end of all my words and hoping to stumble upon something Italian. I never liked Harry Potter, the character, anyway but as the series went on and all those this became more prevalent, I could stand him even less. I could go on, but I'll end my tangent here.

I still disagree Harry is a Marty Stu. Nothing can go wrong? How do you figure that? Lots of things go wrong. That’s part of the adventure. Part of his learning to trust and ask for help when things do go wrong. As to the parseltonge thing. I don’t think it is far fetched. Ron heard Harry tell thelocket to open. Ron needed the Chamber to OPEN. I can imitate words I’ve heard, I imitate Jawa’s from Battlefront all the time. “Mee Naw!” I don’t know what meena means, or how to spell it, but I know the Jawa’s in the game yell it when they are near the battle... It isn’t that far fetched and doesn’t make Harry or Ron or anyone in the story a Mary Sue.


Mary Sue/Marty Stu's in literature.

Sam Spade
James Bond
Dante Valentine
John Taylor
Cat Crawfield
Puss n' Boots
The Three Musketeers
Vlad Taltos
Harry Dresden
Merideth Gentry
Anita Blake
MacKayla Lane
Frodo Baggins
Bilbo Baggins
The Hardy Boys
Nancy Drew
Encyclopedia Brown

...

More?

:(I like all of the Mary/Marty's on this list.I can’t speak to everyone of these, but again, being an Ideal isn’t the same as being so completely a fantasy that the character is boring and unbelievable.

[Sage]

I wouldn't think Harry Dresden is a Marty Stu either. At least from the Dresden Files I've read, he's definitely flawed, makes mistakes all the time, and feels over his head for pretty much the whole book.


I once wondered if one of my characters was a Mary Sue. She had lots of traits in common with me, so I was concerned. Then I realized that what she and I had in common were almost all flaws. I stopped worrying.

[AZ_Dawn]

They're not very good at all honestly. Sorry, I didn't mean to advocate them above.
I figured as much. I think what Stued up my character on that first test was the "technically yes" requirement combined with the wording of some of the questions:roll::

"11. Do situations that would render most people completely gross and icky (EG, battling, getting tortured, going for days without bathing or washing) have no discernable effect on your character's attractiveness?"
Well, yeah. Since most women aren't attracted to short, pockmarked, sulky men in the first place, I'd say a lack of bathing wouldn't make him much less sexy!

"12. Does your character have any of the following?
a. Natural eye coloration that stands out from the norm?"
Yes, but only because brown eyes are an extreme rarity for redheads.

"4. Does your character have a job or skill that is discouraged, forbidden, or unusual among his/her gender, race, or social status?"
Yeah. It's called piracy; I would hope it's discouraged!

[DonnaDuck]

I think it's worth repeating; a Mary Sue is not a character based on yourself but an idealized version of yourself.

Characterization comes naturally to an extent, just as writing does. But that doesn't mean there isn't any kind of work involved to perfect the character or the story being written. Even the best writers toil over character flaws and plotholes (or at least they should). The writing that reads like it comes naturally is usually the hardest to write.

[sassandgroove]

Not to split hairs, but I don't think Idealized is the right word. I say this because some of the lists of characters from lit above I don't believe are Mary Sue's, but they are Idealized, like James Bond. I think a better phrase is fantasy fulfillment.

[DonnaDuck]

Wish fulfillment, you're right. Some are idealized as well.

[jamiehall]

Mary Sue/Marty Stu's in literature.

Sam Spade
James Bond
Dante Valentine
John Taylor
Cat Crawfield
Puss n' Boots
The Three Musketeers
Vlad Taltos
Harry Dresden
Merideth Gentry
Anita Blake
MacKayla Lane
Frodo Baggins
Bilbo Baggins
The Hardy Boys
Nancy Drew
Encyclopedia Brown

...

More?

:( I like all of the Mary/Marty's on this list.

In my opinion, only a few of these count, because nearly all of them do have flaws, are hated by other characters, and do not annoy the reader just by existing.

If being very heroic/superpowered were the only requirement, then pretty much all superheroes and many main characters would count.

A Mary Sue is a type of character grounded so strongly in wish-fulfillment fantasies that there isn't really any room left over for a plot. Even though Mary Sues annoy readers, deep down the true problem comes from the way the unrealistic (even for supernatural/fantasy/sci-fi realms) character traits derail the plot, making it so there isn't really a story, or so that what little story exists is entirely overwhelmed.

For example, if Frodo were a Mary Sue, then he would have very little problem resisting the ring's corruption, he'd be better at fighting than any of the real fighters, he'd be better at magic than Gandalf, he'd be better-looking than any of the elves, and everyone except the villains (and maybe even some of them) would inexplicably love Frodo the moment they met him, the girls sleeping with him and the guys becoming his best friends and being willing to take orders from him immediately. Furthermore, the other hobbits would not have mobilized the ents, Frodo would have done that too, because he'd be accomplishing every important thing himself.

[sassandgroove]

Exactly. Good analysis.

[BenPanced]

Another popular Mary Sue/Gary Stu tactic: this character is the long lost sister or brother of (fill in the blank). Usually, Harry Potter has a twin sister and they were separated at birth; it turns out she's more adept at magic than he is and saves the day before can he even think about it.

[Sage]

Another thing to think about regarding those litmus tests is that they are created based off what the creator sees commonly in actual Mary Sues, especially fanfic ones. So an item of power isn't going to make your character a Mary Sue, even though that list's creator saw it a lot in actual Mary Sues. Having a lot of magical power isn't going to make them a Mary Sue (especially if they have as much or less power than other characters). Even being beautiful doesn't make them a Mary Sue. It's the perfection, the better-than-everyone-else part that would make them a Mary Sue.

And in those tests, one positive answer can give you a huge leap in the score, even if it's something that doesn't really make a difference to the story. For example, if the character is an angel or a vampire. But if you're writing a vampire or angel story, what can you do about it? ;)

[dpaterso]

Another popular Mary Sue/Gary Stu tactic: this character is the long lost sister or brother of (fill in the blank). Usually, Harry Potter has a twin sister and they were separated at birth; it turns out she's more adept at magic than he is and saves the day before can he even think about it.
I'd pay to read that spin-off. Fingers also crossed for an "Angelina Potter: Bitch Witch" TV series.

-Derek

[BlueLucario]

[QUOTE] I have to disagree. I can’t speak to Kim, but Harry Potter has many flaws. He is full of anger, he jumps to conclusions, he acts on impulse. he repeatedly needs to learn to trust and to ask for help. Even at the last book he has to be convinced by Ron and Hermione that he needs help and can’t do it alone.

The only thing that can explain his anger is testosterone. I'm not disagreeing here, I have to agree with DonnaDuck on this. Every event in the story just happens, it falls on Harry's lap. A few Deus ex machina here and there. I don't see an event that happened because of the choices he makes. He's not doing anything to solve his issues, he's not doing things because he wants to.(Except for the D.A event in the fifth book). Harry doesn't have goals in life, he just attacks voldemort because he's there in front of him. Every book you read he does absolutely nothing to reach his goals, because he WANTS to do it.

My characters used to be like Harry, but back when my work was critiqued she told me that my MC came across as Passive, similar to Harry. Everything happens because the author wants it to happen instead of making it flow naturally.

I still disagree Harry is a Marty Stu. Nothing can go wrong? How do you figure that? Lots of things go wrong. That’s part of the adventure. Part of his learning to trust and ask for help when things do go wrong. As to the parseltonge thing. I don’t think it is far fetched. Ron heard Harry tell thelocket to open. Ron needed the Chamber to OPEN. I can imitate words I’ve heard, I imitate Jawa’s from Battlefront all the time. “Mee Naw!” I don’t know what meena means, or how to spell it, but I know the Jawa’s in the game yell it when they are near the battle... It isn’t that far fetched and doesn’t make Harry or Ron or anyone in the story a Mary Sue.

It's not the nothing go wrong sort, I disagree with that too. But check Harry's background. He's famous because his parents were killed, but their parents were members of the Order of the Phoenix. He meets Lupin and Sirius(Who was wanted.) It's like everyone knew his parents. The world revolves around Harry. That's why I still consider HP a Gary Stu.

My two cents.

[Cranky]

I figured as much. I think what Stued up my character on that first test was the "technically yes" requirement combined with the wording of some of the questions:roll::

"11. Do situations that would render most people completely gross and icky (EG, battling, getting tortured, going for days without bathing or washing) have no discernable effect on your character's attractiveness?"
Well, yeah. Since most women aren't attracted to short, pockmarked, sulky men in the first place, I'd say a lack of bathing wouldn't make him much less sexy!

"12. Does your character have any of the following?
a. Natural eye coloration that stands out from the norm?"
Yes, but only because brown eyes are an extreme rarity for redheads.

"4. Does your character have a job or skill that is discouraged, forbidden, or unusual among his/her gender, race, or social status?"
Yeah. It's called piracy; I would hope it's discouraged!

Not to be a total asshat here, but I believe brown eyes and red hair (like myself) are actually more common than say blue or green eyes and red hair.

Gray eyes and red hair...oh, don't I wish! THAT would be awesome.

/end derail

[AZ_Dawn]

Not to be a total asshat here, but I believe brown eyes and red hair (like myself) are actually more common than say blue or green eyes and red hair.
It's okay, you're not being one. If you were, you'd've started your post with "You're wrong, b----!"

I got most of my info on on the rarity of brown-eyed redheads from here (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun2001/993598918.Ge.r.html). It seems to have something to do with hair and eye color chromasomes being linked.

[Cranky]

It's okay, you're not being one. If you were, you'd've started your post with "You're wrong, b----!"

I got most of my info on on the rarity of brown-eyed redheads from here (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun2001/993598918.Ge.r.html). It seems to have something to do with hair and eye color chromasomes being linked.

Huh. That's really weird. Well, that's what I get for assuming, lol. Thanks for the link.

[DonnaDuck]

According to the litmus tests, the only way to redeem your character from being a Mary Sue is for her to be "truly" ugly and remain that way, have a disabling character flaw that remains consistent throughout and/or be mentally handicapped. Doesn't leave room for much else.

[sassandgroove]

Well, I don't want to make this a Harry Potter thread, so I'll just say I disagree that Harry is a Marty Stu.

[dreamsofnever]

I got most of my info on on the rarity of brown-eyed redheads from here (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun2001/993598918.Ge.r.html). It seems to have something to do with hair and eye color chromasomes being linked.

Ooh, thanks for the link, Dawn! I had no idea that it was more rare. I might just have to go change my MC's eye color now, because she's 'speshul' enough without having an unusual eye color. lol. (or maybe not, since I really don't harp on her eyes... or possibly don't even mention them. hmm...)

And your character sounds about as un-Stuish as he can be, so yes the litmus tests are definitely not that reliable. :)

[Sarpedon]

Hmm, my protagonist only scored a 10 on the Mary Sue test, and he had no major handicaps. I even counted things that I thought shouldn't qualify.

[Lccorp2]

Someone whose perceptions are identical to objective reality. Everything else is subjective, but this one is the most obvious indicator, IMO.

[maestrowork]

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

"Idealized" is the key word here, not whether the character is based on the author.

If you write the character with honesty, with all the flaws and complexity and good and bad, then it's more autobiographical than "Mary Sue."

[maestrowork]

Mary Sue/Marty Stu's in literature.

Sam Spade
James Bond
Dante Valentine
John Taylor
Cat Crawfield
Puss n' Boots
The Three Musketeers
Vlad Taltos
Harry Dresden
Merideth Gentry
Anita Blake
MacKayla Lane
Frodo Baggins
Bilbo Baggins
The Hardy Boys
Nancy Drew
Encyclopedia Brown

...

More?

:( I like all of the Mary/Marty's on this list.

Don't forget Robert Langdon in Dan Brown's novels...

[Vorteil]

I think those Mary Sue tests are more like cliche tests, really...if a character scores high it's likely a bad thing, but that doesn't make them a Mary Sue, just really annoying. Personally I view a Mary Sue as something more extreme than Harry Potter.

[TheSauce]

And with this, I wonder, can one base a character off of himself and have him not come off as a Mary Sue? If so, how?

A little late to the game but I'll toss in my 2 cents. I think that you can base a character off yourself and not have it be a Mary Sue, because IMO every character is based on you in some way, even if it's something that you dislike about yourself or a reversal of something, i.e. something you'd never do this character does. When it gets too far is when you've got the ultra-idealized super-Sue that can do no wrong and whom everybody loves(like Anita Blake).

[maestrowork]

What do you call a character if it's based on the author but only possesses the negative traits (or is the complete opposite of who the author is)?

[DonnaDuck]

What do you call a character if it's based on the author but only possesses the negative traits (or is the complete opposite of who the author is)?

Evil twin.

[Medievalist]

Bilbo and Frodo are not Marty Stu/Mary Sue characters because they're not always perfect at everything all the time.

There's an early thread about Mary Sues in the AW Roundtable. (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59684&highlight=marysue)

And a lovely definition of a Mary Sue (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004188.html) from TNH / Making Light from TNH, posted by MacAllister on that earlier thread:

A Mary Sue story is the literary equivalent of opening a package that you thought would be the new jacket you ordered on eBay, only it turns out to contain a poorly-constructed fairy princess costume made of some lurid and sleazy material. It’s tailored to fit a human-size Barbie doll, not you; and when you hold it up to the light, you can see the picked-out stitchmarks where someone else’s name used to be embroidered across the bodice. The dress has been used but not cleaned, and appears to have last been worn during a rather sloppy romantic interlude …

More formally:

MARY SUE (n.): 1. A variety of story, first identified in the fan fiction community, but quickly recognized as occurring elsewhere, in which normal story values are grossly subordinated to inadequately transformed personal wish-fulfillment fantasies, often involving heroic or romantic interactions with the cast of characters of some popular entertainment. 2. A distinctive type of character appearing in these stories who represents an idealized version of the author. 3. A cluster of tendencies and characteristics commonly found in Mary Sue-type stories. 4. A body of literary theory, originally generated by the fanfic community, which has since spread to other fields (f.i., professional SF publishing) because it’s so darn useful. The act of committing Mary Sue-ism is sometimes referred to as “self-insertion.”