Copyright before you send to an agent or publisher?

[DoctorShade]

Hello I am new here, so if I am posting this in the wrong section I apologize.

My brother and I are writers (or we try to be), until recently I was under the impression that you should copyright your work before you send it to an agent or publisher. But someone who seemed to know what they were talking about said that it is bad to do this because it annoys the agent (or publisher) and is amateurish because legitimate agent/publishers are not out to steal your work , while I do believe this I am just a bit hesitate to send my brother's manuscript to an agent without it being protected some how. Are my fears unfounded?

Also is there a list of honest agents that I could send work to.

I know a little bit about the publishing world I've read the book "The Idiot's Guide to Writing a Novel" and "The Everything Creative Writing Book" but I still feel lost.

[Medievalist]

Welcom to AW Water Cooler DoctorShade; we're delighted to have you join us.

You and / or your brother have copyright the minute you start writing, and yes, it's generally a bit foolish to register the copyright of a work before you send it to an agent.

You might read the Copyright FAQ (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58845)

[Siddow]

Hi, Doc. That someone DID know what they were talking about. I don't think the fact that you've copyrighted is annoying by itself, but saying, "This work is copyrighted so don't try to steal it or I'll sue you!" is. So is putting the copyright symbol on the MS.

You can start looking for agents at agentquery.com, but make sure you also:

1. Visit the agent's webpage if available
2. Look them up here on Bewares and background checks
3. Look them up on Preditors and Editors
4. google the agent's name + warning, agent's name + caution, agent's name + scam, agent's name + whateverelseyou'dliketobewarnedof.
5. visit client webpages. Read client books. Know client publishers.

And stick around here. Welcome!

[DoctorShade]

Thanks. One more question that I forgot to include in my original message. Should the font be Courier or Times New Roman? Should it Be Double Spaced? What kind of Header footer is expected, I am so nervous that if I break any one of the little publishers etiquettes I will doom myself.

PS: I know my user name is "doctorshade" but I'm actually not a Doctor, I want to be a doctor when I graduate but the main reason why is it's a habbit. I usually register to websites with my username being DoctorShade or Shade. I only mention this because I don't like to fool people into believing I'm a doctor. :)

[Siddow]

There's a sticky in Novels for manuscript format.

Calm down. Deep breath. Doc. :D

[Birol]

Welcome to AW, Doc.

[DoctorShade]

Thank you, and thanks for the information.

Now I'll just be trying to figure out how to automatically insert "Title / Author" on all of my pages :)

[Birol]

Are you using Microsoft Word?

If so:

1. Click on View in the main toolbar.
2. Select Header/Footer.
3. Type and format the information in the Header that you wish to appear.
4. Use the Header/Footer toolbar to switch between the header and footer, format page numbers, etc.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . until recently I was under the impression that you should copyright your work before you send it to an agent or publisher. . . .
It is copyrighted the moment it takes physical form (on paper or as computer file). REGISTRATION of copyright is a different thing.

Spend some time at www.copyright.gov (http://www.copyright.gov) -- read the Copyright Basics and the FAQs.

Here are some other suggestions.

Basic homework

Go to some big bookstores, with pen and notebook. Look through the kinds of books you want to write. You should of course already be reading such books, as it is unlikely that you can write well what you do not choose to read.
Take notes on publishers. Take notes on mentions of agents in acknowledgments. Those publishers and agents are potential targets for your manuscript.
Contact publishers who publish the kind of book you have written or want to write. Ask for their guidelines for authors. (You might be able to find them on the Web.) Study the guidelines.
See which publishers accept unagented submissions. See the next section for resources, and also look at publishers’ websites. Publishers that do not accept “unsolicited submissions” might read a query letter. If the publisher responds to the query with a request for a book proposal or manuscript, then the manuscript or book proposal is solicited, not unsolicited.
Look up information (see next section) on agents who have represented manuscripts like yours or are seeking the kind of thing you have written.
Keep a running list of potential agents and publishers. You can do that in a file on your PC or on plain old note cards or in a notebook. Leave room for adding comments later.

Hit the books

A handful of essential reference books belong on your shelves, well thumbed, marked up, and flagged with Post-Its.

Trade references

Writer’s Market (latest edition), published by Writer’s Digest Press. This annual volume lists numerous publishers of books and periodicals and some literary agents, with useful information on what sorts of books they accept and other conditions. It also includes articles on writing and publishing.
Guide to Literary Agents (latest edition). Another annual from Writer’s Digest Press. It includes chapters on formatting manuscripts, writing queries, and more.
Jeff Herman’s Guide to Book Publishers, Editors & Literary Agents (latest edition). This is a more selective guide, but also more detailed. It excludes periodicals, as the focus is on books. It also includes valuable articles on such topics as writing queries and book proposals.
The Writer’s Handbook (latest edition), published by The Writer Books. Another directory of publishers plus advice on writing. Older volumes, which might be available in libraries, can be valuable for their articles on many aspects of writing. (This annual might not be as easy to find as the ubiquitous Writer’s Market.)
Literary Marketplace. This is the comprehensive guide to publishers and literary agents. You can find it in large libraries.If you have to pick only one, I recommend Writer’s Market.

Resources for finding agents and publishers

In addition to the articles in Writer’s Market and comparable books in the previous section, the following are worth your time and money:
Bulletproof Book Proposals, by Pam Brodowsky and Eric Neuhaus (Writer’s Digest Books, 2006).
The Making of a Bestseller, by Brian Hill and Dee Power (Dearborn Trade Publishing, 2005).
How to Get a Literary Agent, by Michael Larsen (Sourcebooks, 2006). Larsen is a long-established agent (Larsen/Pomada Agency).--Ken

[DoctorShade]

Thanks again Birol and you too ResearchGuy, wow everyone is so nice and helpful here.

[Mumut]

Welcome, DoctorShade. I've never copyrighted my work because I believe it is not necessary. An author automatically has copyright.

As to how to present to work to an agent or publisher. Their websites usually give you very specific instruction as to how you must send the work to them, and I suggest you take very great care to do what they want. Pain in the neck? Yes. Worth the effort? Yes.

[IdiotsRUs]

4. google the agent's name + warning, agent's name + caution, agent's name + scam, agent's name + whateverelseyou'dliketobewarnedof.


I tried that - I got a lot of warnings about explicit scenes, which is worrying because I don't have any. Maybe there will be a warning on my book WARNING: AGGRESSIVE TURNIPS!

[DoctorShade]

I've been calling around and it seems that it will cost over 60 dollars to print my brother's manuscript at Staples or FedEx-Kinkos. I don't understand why they charge so much. although it is over 600 pages in the proper format, it's a good thing agents only want to get 5-30 pages initially because it would cost a fortune to send the whole thing to all of them.

I looked under Aknolegements in one of my favorite novels by Orson Scott Card and the Agent was Barbra Bova so I was thinking of sending it to her agency. I am at the library now so I was also going to pick up a copy of Writer’s Market (The 2008 edition is out is the 2007 edition good enough?)

I have another question, hope I'm not being an insufferable pain in the neck, I just read that anything that is supposed to be italized must be underlined. My brother and I were wondering if there is a way to automatically change anything in italics to underline so he doesn't have to go through the whole manuscript and change it.

[Birol]

Yes, you can do this using Find/Replace.

Do you have a printer at home?

[DoctorShade]

Yes, you can do this using Find/Replace.

Do you have a printer at home?

I've used Find/Replace, can you ask it to Find all the italics and replace it with underline?

Yes I have a printer at home but ink and paper are expensive especially for a Dell printer. So it would probably be cheaper to print it at a store like Staples or FedEx-Kinkos.

[ResearchGuy]

. . . I don't understand why they charge so much. . . .
Photocopying (around here, anyway) runs 8 cents per page. That adds up for a long manuscript. I've paid $30+ per copy to have some manuscripts printed and spiral bound (those were for selected advance readers; Lulu.com is a lot cheaper for that purpose). The process of seeking publication is not cheap -- printing, packaging, postage, phone calls, reference materials, maybe some travel and research expenses (even for fiction -- sometimes a lot even for fiction), and on and on. Not to mention living expenses.

As for Writer's Market -- even the 2008 edition is already getting dated. You might want to look into a subscription to the online version. At least check publishers' and agents' websites for current information.

Underlining instead of italics? Hmmm. That is a new one on me, though I cannot claim expertise on that point. I know I have had to fix up manuscripts to correct underlined TO italics in preparation for publication. (One of my writer friends insists on underlining stuff that should be in italics.) You might want to inquire further on that question.

--Ken

P.S. Folks around here love honest, sensible questions. You came to the right place.

[DoctorShade]

Well in one of the articles on this site about formatting it said that in Courier New italics is hard to distinguish from regular text so underlining is used until it is published.

Ok, I don't have a lot of money to work with so I will definatley try to get a hold of the 2008 version of the book because I don't think I can afford paid subscriptions. I work at a library so it should be hard for me to get a copy of the latest version eventually.

[Julie Worth]

Underlining vs. italics. It depends both on the font you're using and on the stated preference of the agent or editor. I always underline when I submit in Courier (as italics doesn't show up), but I use italics with TNR. And now I've begun using Bitstream Vera Serif (which is more readable than TNR), and I use italics there too. It shouldn't take you more than a few moments to convert a style from one font to another, or italics to underlining.

[ResearchGuy]

Well in one of the articles on this site about formatting it said that in Courier New italics is hard to distinguish from regular text so underlining is used until it is published. . . .

Ah! Interesting.

I always default to Times New Roman. (To my surprise, it even looks good in POD books -- much better than I had been led to believe.) Bottom line is to do what agent or publisher asks.

--Ken

[Toothpaste]

DoctorShade, unless the agent/publisher specifies they want Courier with underlining, don't worry. You are free to do Times New Roman with italics and no agent or publisher will begrudge you. Yes there are always debates in these threads about which is better, but the fact is, unless they specify what they want, you are perfectly safe. Agents and editors simply want something that is readable, italics don't matter (the italics/underline debate comes from using typewriters and copy editing, nothing to do with the initial submission process). Believe me.

[veinglory]

If you want to feel extra secure you can register copyright before submitting (I don't but it's your choice and your money).

But there is no need to tell the editor or agent that you submit to that you have registered copyright.

[Toothpaste]

Actually I have a question about that, I thought that registering copyright made it more difficult on the publishing house later, like they couldn't change stuff in the MS or something. Is that true, or is that just a rumour I heard somewhere?

[Julie Worth]

Actually I have a question about that, I thought that registering copyright made it more difficult on the publishing house later, like they couldn't change stuff in the MS or something. Is that true, or is that just a rumour I heard somewhere?


"An Outline of Copyright Law" states that double copyrighting can result in forfeiture of copyright. Something to think about, for sure, before rushing a copy off to Washington.

[DoctorShade]

DoctorShade, unless the agent/publisher specifies they want Courier with underlining, don't worry. You are free to do Times New Roman with italics and no agent or publisher will begrudge you. Yes there are always debates in these threads about which is better, but the fact is, unless they specify what they want, you are perfectly safe. Agents and editors simply want something that is readable, italics don't matter (the italics/underline debate comes from using typewriters and copy editing, nothing to do with the initial submission process). Believe me.

Now I'm just a little confused, so it can in fact be Times New Roman, italics instead of Courier New, under line and it won't matter? I'm worried I'll do the wrong thing.

[inkkognito]

As for Writer's Market -- even the 2008 edition is already getting dated. You might want to look into a subscription to the online version. At least check publishers' and agents' websites for current information.
Be careful even with the online edition. I subscribe and have been finding large amounts of outdated info. even in listings that were supposedly just updated. For example, there is one publisher that supposedly was just verified at the end of Feb., yet as far as I can tell they are out of business totally.

[DoctorShade]

All of the entires I discovered in the Writer's Market book I promptly visited the website of the agent to make sure the facts were in check. And I actually found that when the book said that they were accepted science fiction, fantasy and other things the website said they are no longer accepting. So far I've found 8 agents, and will continue to look for more. I plan to get all of the packets together and send it in all at once.

I can't belive I'm doing this much grunt work for my brother. It seems all of my dreams are always first fufilled by one of my brothers first...

[DeadlyAccurate]

Don't overthink Courier vs. TNR or italics vs. underlining. Check guidelines and in the absence of a stated preference, stick with one. Don't get fancy. It's your writing you want to be creative, not your formatting.

I plan to get all of the packets together and send it in all at once.

And if your query could use more work? Now you've shut out a whole bunch of agents you could query when your query letter has improved. Send out a few at a time. Wait to see if there's any feedback. If you're getting nothing but form rejections on the query, tweak the query and send to more agents. Repeat as necessary.

And tell your brother to do his own grunt work! He needs to learn this stuff for himself. If you want to be a writer, work on your stuff, not his.

[aka eraser]

Now I'm just a little confused, so it can in fact be Times New Roman, italics instead of Courier New, under line and it won't matter? I'm worried I'll do the wrong thing.

It's easy enough to save electronic files in both formats. Many, if not most, pubs will eyeball e-subs and they can be in TNR. If hard copies are required, they may print them on their own dime and in whatever format they prefer. My publisher did.

As always, check guidelines and adhere to them.

And I second DeadlyAccurate's advice about sending out queries in smallish batches. It's quite likely the query you're using in three months will differ substantially from the one you use first.

[Phaeal]

Because you seem new to the publishing world, I would suggest that you or your brother post some of the novel manuscript here in the Share Your Work (SYW) section. The first chapter should be enough. Let the potential readers of your SYW thread know that you're thinking of sending the MS out to publishers and agents and ask for an honest opinion about whether it is ready yet.

It would be too bad to send out his work prematurely, without sufficient revision or polishing. That can only close doors you want opened.

[DoctorShade]

DeadlyAccuarte -- Yes I have changed my mind about sending them all out at once for that reason and because it might get confusing. I know that he should do his own grunt work but It's difficult, he is a very stubborn and immature, although he is 15 years old and very intelligent he is also very immature.

Phaeal - That's an excellent suggestion, would people here actually be willing to read over it? I will ask my brother if I can do that, if so I feel it is best to post both the prolouge and the first chapter because I think that is nessary to get a full sense of the work...the Prolouge isn't that long anyway.

[DeadlyAccurate]

...because it might get confusing.

Here's a piece of advice I had to learn the hard way: track your submissions! At minimum note the date sent, to whom (agency name and specific agent), and the date you received the rejection or request. (Lo these many years ago, I sent a fiction query to an agent who didn't even handle fiction. And then I did it again with another book! Learned my lesson, I did.)

[DoctorShade]

Here's a piece of advice I had to learn the hard way: track your submissions! At minimum note the date sent, to whom (agency name and specific agent), and the date you received the rejection or request. (Lo these many years ago, I sent a fiction query to an agent who didn't even handle fiction. And then I did it again with another book! Learned my lesson, I did.)

That's exactly the type of thing I would do, thanks for the advice I'll definatley keep note of who I send too.

[KikiteNeko]

In The First Five Pages (great reference book btw if you're new to this game like I am), the author referred to copyrighted manuscripts with the little (c) as "the paranoid author." As the original author, you technically have a copyright... It's not very likely an agent is going to steal it from you since it would kill their reputation forever. The most reliable source for agents I've found are the 2008 Writer's Market, querytracker.net, and predators and editors.

[ResearchGuy]

. . .As the original author, you technically have a copyright. . . .
Not just technically. Legally. Statutorily. Automatically. As soon as it takes physical form on paper or in a computer file.

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

Let's say you write ten short stories, and copyright them all before sending them out. Forty bucks a pop, $400 expended.

Let's say that one of those ten sells and brings you in $400 (a fairly typical amount, and a fairly good sales record).

What's your profit?

[DoctorShade]

This is comforting, but I've always felt in the computer age it seems difficult to prove ownership. I'm kind of paranoid, if I write a masterpiece my heart would be broken if it was stolen, not just my heart. Maybe I'm not paranoid but I've always been a worrier.

[J.S Greer]

This is comforting, but I've always felt in the computer age it seems difficult to prove ownership.

I could tell you details about my story and characters that anyone stealing would be hard presses to match.

I could show you the initial story that the novel was eventually born from that was handwritten on lined paper when I was in high school (1986-1990). I also have every draft that Ive done along the way, detailed notes and various errata spread over three computers and a few back up disks (including a zip disk lol) that all have time/day/year stamps on them.

Good luck to anyone trying to steal my work :tongue

[PennStater]

You should check and see if the agents you plan to submit to accept email queries. It doesn't cost you a dime and you'll find out within minutes to days whether they want to see more. And they generally will request more as a .doc attachment instead of mailing stuff in. If you don't want to spend money, just email query.

I think you should also post your query in query letter hell and perhaps the first chapter if you feel up to it.

[DoctorShade]

PennStater - That's a good idea, and I was planning on posting the query letter on this site before I sent it in.

JS Greer - If you needed to you could prove that it is your story, Other than a few randomly scattered notes and outlines I've done most of my work on the computer so I don't see how I would be able to prove it in a court of law (if necessary)

[Bufty]

You have a hard drive. You have copies of your manuscript saved. Never e-mailed any of your story to anyone at all? Stop worrying.

PennStater - That's a good idea, and I was planning on posting the query letter on this site before I sent it in.

JS Greer - If you needed to you could prove that it is your story, Other than a few randomly scattered notes and outlines I've done most of my work on the computer so I don't see how I would be able to prove it in a court of law (if necessary)

[DoctorShade]

It's true I've never emailed any of my story to anyone and I have it saved in multiple places so I guess It's true that I don't need to worry. My brother's (which if you've read my other posts you'll know I'm sort of being his pseudo-pre-agent) I have sent the first 50 pages to my friend Chantal but he has written first drafts of most of his work so he'd easily be able to prove it's his.

[kzmiller]

Hi DoctorShade! I remember sending out my first manuscripts. I wanted to let you that ahhhhhhhhh! help meeeeee! you're feeling is totally normal, which is why so many people are here to help you out. We've all been there, either that, or we are there or are about to be there.

Sorry, this is going to be really long-winded, but hopefully helpful.

I'd like to reinforce the idea of looking at guidelines for submission. Not just any guidelines, but the guidelines for the specific agent or publisher you're submitting to. I'm in the process of querying agents and let me tell you, everyone is different.

Some loathe Courier. Some love Courier because they're used to it and they can look at your page count and know exactly how it will fit inside a book/inside their magazine/whatever. Some will see italics and dump the ms in the bin. Some want to see a two page synopsis. Some won't even look at your manuscript if you're bothered them with anything longer than a paragraph hook and a cover letter. Some insist on five pages of sample work, others want a first chapter as an attachment, still others will insist that nothing but a full length hard copy submission with synopsis and chapter by chapter outline will work for them.

For several years I coordinated a writer's workshop for a large-ish convention. I set up specific, and I thought not very draconian and fairly standard, guidelines. .doc or .rtf electronic submissions as an attachment. 1 inch margins, Courier or Times New Roman font, 12 point. Double spacing. A one page cover letter describing writing experience/goals and any specific things you'd like the critiques to focus on, if any. A one page single-spaced synopsis if the sub was a novel portion. Scenes broken with #, no 'email format' with paragraphs defined by a double return instead of an indentation.

I got a huge variety of formats, including an email format submission. If I was an editor or agent, I would as a matter of principle chuck anything that wasn't within my guidelines. I wouldn't do it because I was being cruel. I'd do it because that showed me that the writer didn't do any research into standard format in general (I would have been happy with formats that were even remotely close!) I'd also do it because I'd know that if I wanted to work with that person, not only would we be going over editing issues but formatting and style issues. That's a lot of additional work.

I helped the writers who submitted to the workshop, not only by reformatting their manuscripts but by writing detailed notes on how and why I made the changes. One manuscript had six pages of notes attached. That's on a 7500 word max submission. Can you imagine what it would be on a full novel? That's nothing about the content, just getting the manuscript into a format that the professional authors could read without making their eyes bleed. For a publisher (or an agent trying to sell your manuscript) they're trying to get your work into a format that's easy for the editors and typesetters to work with.

I used to think that guidelines were all about the same, and as long as I put in a submission that was in someone's standard format I'd be okay. Well, yes and no. Yes in that agents and editors realize that a writer's strength is in writing, not necessarily dolling up manuscripts to fit one of hundreds of 'standard' submission formats. (You want to see a hairy one, look at romance novel submission formats sometime.) But also no--agents and editors like to see writers that pay attention, writers that make changes to make the editor's job easier, writers who act like professionals, writers who research and learn, writers who can adapt quickly to changing circumstances. BTW, that last part is critical in a good writer/agent relationship. If a writer can adapt, that means deadlines might be met with less trauma and drama, and suggested changes to the content will be considered in a professional manner instead of tossed out immediately because it doesn't match the author's vision.

I know this sounds all complicated, but basically it boils down to give them what they want and you'll have a better chance of publishing. Sticking to your guns for artistic reasons is a related but somewhat separate topic with its own can of worms. Right now all you're dealing with is fitting your queries and submissions to what the agents and publishers need. I advise a schedule of one or two subs a week. You'll be getting feedback as you go along, and you'll be able to modify your subs if you realize you're not getting much interest. The other advantage of one to two subs a week is that you'll have plenty of time to Google and research the folks you want to submit to. Not only will you have a chance to fit your subs to their guideline submissions, but you'll have lots of opportunity to discover if they're scammers or other unworthies.

Good luck out there! It's a big, big ocean but there's lots of room to swim and have fun.

[DoctorShade]

kzmiller - you make a very good point, a long point but a good one. :P Thanks a lot for your input. It will be a little while until I'm submitting my own manuscript to agents. Right now I'm working on helping my brother get published and it adds a whole new complication...his stubborness. I'm going to make him register on this site too, I can't continue to be his full liaison. It's nice that I'm here, so I don't make these mistakes either, right now I've only typed the begining of my own story (32 pages, TNR, Single spaced) (I have written other things, and have had other projects)

It's annoying that every agent is slightly different and there are some annoying things that need to be paid attention to for example when a scene ends I am in the custom of using " * * * " not " # # #"

That can be easily fixed but things like a double return rather than an indentation is something that I do not know how to easily fix.

On top of it all one of my friends (who is also trying to get published) read my brother's manuscripts and is seeing problems with it, I think I'll have to put sending things to agents on hold until it is completely perfect. Eventually I plan to post some on the Share Your Work section for him. The reason why I'm working so hard for him on this is because I have been personally invested in his writing process, he always read it to me right after he wrote it and I helped with revisions...but I'm rambling like a mad man.

[ResearchGuy]

. . .
That can be easily fixed but things like a double return rather than an indentation is something that I do not know how to easily fix.
. . .
Do you use Microsoft Word? Learn how to use paragraph styles and heading styles.

--Ken

[kzmiller]

Yes, what Ken said. If you're writing on a computer using a word processor (this seems likely, considering that you're posting here) then somewhere in the software there should be format options. Don't double return to get the double spacing, it will turn your manuscript into a mess. Much easier to leave it in single spacing until you figure the format thing out. In my version of Word, double spacing is one of the options in the Format menu under Paragraph. I keep a ruler up at all times (an option to check under the View menu) and slide the top (down-pointing) arrow at the left margin to adjust my indentation. There are other ways to do that. Set it a half inch in. Margins are adjusted under the Format menu under Document options. All the margins should be set at 1".

That should keep you busy for a while. :-)

[DoctorShade]

If your talking about Double spacing then I do know how to do that but I wasn't sure what "with paragraphs defined by a double return instead of an indentation." meant.

[Bufty]

[from earlier poster]...For several years I coordinated a writer's workshop for a large-ish convention. I set up specific, and I thought not very draconian and fairly standard, guidelines. .doc or .rtf electronic submissions as an attachment. 1 inch margins, Courier or Times New Roman font, 12 point. Double spacing. A one page cover letter describing writing experience/goals and any specific things you'd like the critiques to focus on, if any. A one page single-spaced synopsis if the sub was a novel portion. Scenes broken with #, no 'email format' with paragraphs defined by a double return instead of an indentation...

Dr, I think you are attaching too much to a bit of this one sentence without reading the whole sentence and paragraph. It's a list.

The isolated phrase itself is clear (again I think) - e-mail paragraphs have no indentation -only a double return (or double space)


If your talking about Double spacing then I do know how to do that but I wasn't sure what "with paragraphs defined by a double return instead of an indentation." meant.

[DoctorShade]

Thanks for clearing that up, I guess that's what I get for skimming :P