how do you know what to edit out?

[Mela]

Is there some trick or formula or something you go by to know which strictly necessary info should stay in a book versus which needs to be edited out?

And how do you keep yourself objective through the editing process - how do you know what's absolutely needed and what is not furthering the plot?

My fantasy is up to 84,000 words and it's a little more than halfway done. I want to keep the whole book to 120,000 words. I know there's a lot to be edited out but I'm afraid I might edit out too much. Is it best to maybe over edit and then add in where I think it's necessary?

I'd really like to know what you guys do.

[underthecity]

Giving yourself some time between finishing the first draft and starting revisions helps make you somewhat objective about your work. It's often suggested taking six weeks off after the first draft.

How do you know what to edit out? Well, there are edits and there are edits. You cut unnecessary words, entire sentences that don't belong. In editing, while cutting words, you're also rewriting sentences so you say the same thing in fewer words. IOW, "tightening" the manuscript.

You will also shorten scenes or eliminate unnecessary scenes altogether. Each time, of course, you're cutting words and/or sentences and rewriting things to make it sound better, more fluid, more visual. Many people advocate cutting all adverbs. I don't do that myself, but I do cut the unnecessary ones (run quickly, that sort of thing). Oftentimes you cut an adverb and rewrite the sentence to reflect what the adverb was cheaply doing.

As I said, there's a lot to editing.

Is it best to maybe over edit and then add in where I think it's necessary?
You'll find yourself doing this when you cut a line now, and discover later you need something to take its place.
allen

[Birol]

You may not have to edit out anything when it comes to story. It may just be a matter of going through and deleting redundant phrases or your favorite crutch words.

Okay, more than likely, that won't cut out the more than 40K you're projecting to cut, but it will help. Beyond that, let the book sit for 3-4 weeks, then go back and reread it. You'll see things that aren't right when you go back through. Trust yourself.

[NicoleMD]

The most important step to successfully editing a book is finishing the first draft first. Worry at this stage will probably stifle your creativity. Get it all out there, on the page. (Though some people do edit as they go.)

Generally, make sure your scenes start as late as possible and end as early as possible, and focus on the most interesting bits. For instance, when two people come together in a scene, usually the introductory bits can be cut. Be careful of rehashing sentences and ideas, and keep things tight. Read out loud (or have your computer read to you) and look for rough spots in prose. Being that you're doing historical fantasy, you will likely find that you've written quite a bit of backstory and world building that can probably be safely cut. Not to say that it isn't important to have written it in the first place. If it's helped you to define your story, it's served it's purpose.

Hope some of this helps. Good luck and enjoy the ride!

Nicole

[RedScylla]

Always, no matter what, save updated versions of your novel. As you move through editing phases, do a Save As, keeping the original document untouched. (This is key if you have the kind of experience I had, where I accidentally broke my first chapter with over-vigorous editing. I had to go back to an earlier version to see where I'd gone wrong.)

[DeleyanLee]

Get your story down in your first draft. Don't think about word count, only think about your story.

Only when you've completed that can you go back, read what you have and decide if it's all Story or if there's extra stuff that's not really Story. And then you take out the parts that aren't Story.

And don't I wish it was just that easy, but that's what's got to be done.

[IceCreamEmpress]

Some good books about editing your own work:

The Artful Edit by Susan Bell
The Forest for the Trees by Betsy Lerner
Manuscript Makeover by Elizabeth Lyon

and I'm sure there are many others.

[joyce]

What everyone has said. I finished my first edit about three weeks ago and am now moving towards the 2nd. After I've let it sit for a couple of weeks, stuff just sticks out to me that shouldn't be there. For me the fresh eye thing really works. If I try to redo it too soon, I know what I'm trying to say and will not see critical mistakes. It I let it sit and simmer for a couple of weeks, I see things and wonder why I missed them in the first place. Good luck.:)

[Mela]

right, so anything that doesn't further the Story is toast.
This is a fantasy I started writing years ago that I just decided to go back and finish. The back part of the book, which I'm working on now, is different from the front: I'm older, wiser, a better writer, so it has a different voice from the beginning.

There's a lot of politics, intrique going on in the first part that comes back to play in the latter part of the book. Between that and the dynamics between characters, I'm having trouble deciding what is absolutely necessary to keep and what will further the plot, not only in the beginning, but further along in the story.

So I thought I'd ask you all: how do you decide what stays and what goes? From my perspective, everything goes that doesn't advance the story.

It's really a tough call and I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but it worries me. But I guess I'll have to finish the damn thing to know specifically what is important in the beginning and what isn't.
sorry for rambling ...

[Stijn Hommes]

Get feedback from betas and critiquers. If you don't know what to edit out yourself, your readers are going to be your best helpers.

[Mumut]

What Dr Nicole said was important. By reading the work out loud you'll hear any parts that hold up the action or you'll be saying words and thinking, 'what has this got to do with anything?'

I also edit the heck out of the first chapter so it says only what is needed to start the book and grab the reader. I also keep description down to attributes needed in the plot. I let the reader decide whether the heroine is blond or brunette unless some action depends upon hair colour.

[rugcat]

“I try to leave out the parts that people skip.”

-- Elmore Leonard

“If it sounds like writing, I rewrite it.”

-- Elmore Leonard

[mscelina]

I just look for all the little red balloons my editor puts in the columns.

And those come AFTER I get rid of all the suddenlys and thens, omit most of the adverbs, kill off run on sentences, take out the unnecessary backstory, slap those darn dialogue tags away, eliminate my favorite words when they occur more than once on the same page, and restructure a paragraph of tedious description into a sentence.

Works every time.

[Jenifer]

Lately I've found that if it's going to make me cry to take it out... it needs to go. http://www.smiley-channel.de/grafiken/smiley/zunge/smiley-channel.de_zunge024.gif

That's probably not the kind of help you were looking for, though.

[zornhau]

right, so anything that doesn't further the Story is toast.

There's a lot of politics, intrique going on in the first part that comes back to play in the latter part of the book. Between that and the dynamics between characters, I'm having trouble deciding what is absolutely necessary to keep and what will further the plot, not only in the beginning, but further along in the story.

So I thought I'd ask you all: how do you decide what stays and what goes? From my perspective, everything goes that doesn't advance the story.

It's really a tough call and I know I'm getting ahead of myself, but it worries me. But I guess I'll have to finish the damn thing to know specifically what is important in the beginning and what isn't.
sorry for rambling ...

My theory: If you think about the plot as a game played out by characters, personified forces, and inner demons etc (http://zornhau.livejournal.com/137471.html#cutid1), then you can hack out anything that isn't a move, and anything that gets between important moves thus muddying up the conflict.

The caveat is that sometimes apparently static things are really moves, e.g. a wadge of description may actually be "Stunningly beautiful wilderness demands to be defended".

But I'm with everybody else - finish the book, then you'll know what it's about and what to cut!

[The Scip]

I read stuff outloud especially dialogue. If does does sound right or if I stumble too much when I read it aloud, it is gone.

[IdiotsRUs]

I'm going through much the same at the mo - my WIP was hideously overlong. I've been through tightning things which has taken out quite a lot,and now I've got to decide which bits should go entirely.

It helps me to look at a scene and work out exactly what I'm trying to do with it. Characterisation? Forwarding the plot? Foreshadowing? And then trying to see if I can take two, or three, scenes and combine them, make each scene work harder for its money, so I might have furthering the plot, foreshadowing and the characterisation together rather than seperate ( and this has the added advantage of adding extra oomph to the scenes too :)). Of course this was something I should have done in the first place, but we learn as we go...

[Mela]

Thanks - you guys are great. I appreciate your help and wisdom. So many good points to consider!

[Phaeal]

Don't even think about editing until you have written the whole first draft. First drafts are allowed to be rambling and disjointed -- pour out everything that occurs to you at this stage. Looking back will stop you cold. Don't do it.

The first draft done, lock it away for at least six weeks. In the meantime, work on an entirely different project. Also, either read or reread some good books on editing. This reading should get you excited about wading into your second draft, new or resharpened editing tools in hand. A couple of my favorites are:

Self-Editing for Fiction Writers, Renni Browne and Dave King - excellent basic text, and fun to read. My edition even has cartoons by the great George Booth. :)

The Fiction Editor, the Novel and the Novelist, Thomas McCormack - brilliant, but could be scary. McCormack like neologisms and complicated concepts, and if you happen to be a professional editor, his ire and trenchant humor may cut you deep.

As for how the actual cutting process goes. I find that I can cut a full quarter or even a full third from my manuscripts just by tightening up the prose, leaving the content pretty much intact. (Think Mammy pulling on Scarlett's corset laces until she can fit in a dress with a 17 inch waist. Now that's tight prose.)

How to know what content to leave out? Or what content needs to be expanded or put in for the first time? Here's where a beta reader comes in. Two of the most helpful things a reader can do for you are simply to check any place in the script where he gets confused and to note any questions about the story that you don't seem to answer for him.

[Shweta]

Moved to Basic Writing Questions.

[inkkognito]

I come from a non-fiction perspective so it's a little different, but I view anything that isn't necessary to convey my meaning as fluff. Fluff is okay; it enhances the story if it's there but doesn't hurt anything if it's removed. There are a couple of publications I work with regularly who give me a variable word count because they're not sure how much space they will have. I deliberately build in a few parageaphs that can be removed without losing meaning if space is tight.

On the flipside, sometimes taking anything at all out would alter the meaning. I had this happen with a sidebar that I just could not get down to the requested word count. I winnowed and pared and cut as much as I could, but it got to a point where I would not have been comfortable with my name on the piece of if I cut anymore because it would not have made sense. Fortunately the editor ultimately agreed.

[J.S Greer]

Tons of great advice in this thread so far.

What I basically to is go sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph, scene by scene, one chapter at a time. I make sure that they all fit together, flow well, and above all that they are important to the story I'm telling. If not, I chop them.

Sometimes it's as simple as changing a word or two, or rearranging a phrase or sentence. Sometimes a whole paragraph goes bye bye. Sometimes, a lot of re-writing takes place. Sometimes you add a scene or two.

Long story short...
I started with 154,703 words. I decided The ending needed changing, so I moved two chapters from the second book in the series to the end of the first; that gave me about 168,000 words. So far, Ive fully edited the first three chapters and am down to 160,000 words already. My goal is to get below 140k words without damaging the narrative. I guarantee that will happen.

I write what comes to me and edit later, hence the large word count. Now that I'm finished, the critic in me can go back and cut the unnecessary crap.

As was said above, write it to completion first, them worry about the editing.


Here is a great article from Holly Lisles website. If you aren't sure where to begin, this is a good start.
http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/wc2-4.html

[robertmblevins]

Mela asks:

"Is there some trick or formula or something you go by to know which strictly necessary info should stay in a book versus which needs to be edited out?"

Allan Guthrie, an acquisition editor for Point Blank Press, released a 'white paper' on this subject that sits pinned to the wall of many a writer's office. It's called 'Hunting Down the Pleonasms' (http://www.adventurebooksofseattle.com/abvideos.htm) and has become famous as a valuable and simple tool for cutting out the deadwood.

At the link shown above, there is a video and a Word document. The video with yours truly is reletively unimportant, and I was tired when I filmed it. Download the free Word document, though.

You won't be sorry. :)

[J.S Greer]

Allan Guthrie, an acquisition editor for Point Blank Press, released a 'white paper' on this subject that sits pinned to the wall of many a writer's office. It's called 'Hunting Down the Pleonasms' (http://www.adventurebooksofseattle.com/abvideos.htm) and has become famous as a valuable and simple tool for cutting out the deadwood.

Download the free Word document, though.

You won't be sorry. :)

I just checked it out, and It's great. Rules to live, er...write by!:snoopy:

[lucky8]

Tough question. It's trial and error really. As others have said take a few weeks out after finishing the first draft to get some perspective and when you look back there will be things that jump out at you as needing to be cut. I tend to find that there are a lot of hanging threads that I meant to follow up but never found a place for, they go. Also repetition of information goes and idle conversations between characters get the chop. Then tidy it up and give it to a few beta readers, they will no doubt have a few suggestions for you.

[Riley]

It's easily difficult. Or is it hardly easy?

I think part of the matter is knowing yourself and your work. Know how you sound, know what you want your work to say.

Know what foibles you're prone to. For example, I have a horrible habit of writing long, rambling speeches. Usually, I can go -snip--snip- painlessly. Innocuous habits can be problematic, too. Some writers get tics. My tic is using the f-bomb with teenage characters (so I ask myself, do all teenagers use the f-bomb? Then I go to Wal-mart and hear it no fewer than twenty times. . .) or to :Shrug:stick parenthetical remarks in my sentences that may or may not be important to what I'm saying.

In general, if it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I don't know exactly what I do, but if it reads smooth, feels smooth, and tastes smooth, then I know I've edited what needs to be edited. Some things need to be moved around, too. If you stay away from your work for about a week the first revision and a month for following revisions, you'll get a better look. Also, SYW helps, a lot. SYW seems to be especially good for catching tics.

Editing just takes practice, pure and simple. Reading a lot of books in different genres helps, so you'll know what's generally accepted and what's not. In the end, however, it seems to be largely up to you. Investing in a book or two about self-editing couldn't hurt, though. I read through Self-Editing for Fiction Writers and a couple of websites I'll put up if I can just find them in the vast chasm that is my favorites list.

[steveg144]

Like some writer guy once said, you edit out all the crappy parts and keep the good parts. :-) Seriously, there's no other way to generalize the editing process; you need to be able to objectively figure out which parts suck (or, in more non-judgmental terms, which parts don't advance the story) and remove them.

[Bufty]

And in addition to all the above - one important element that doesn't seem to have been mentioned so far.

It's easier said than done, but get oneself into the shoes of the reader.

Blank your mind. Try and erase from your imagination the fact that when you start to read you already know where you are, what's happening, what's coming, who's who etc., and build your mental images only from what you read.

At the same time, those routine editing questions drone on in the background - Does this make sense, is it clear, can it be clearer, is this needed, can this be dropped, is that what I really meant to say, is this in the right place, is that the right word etc., etc.?

It's very tough, but fun - and rewarding.

[Black-Tooth]

What about stuff that doesn't advance the plot but adds something else to the story, like characterisation, or texture to the city. I've got a scene with some police that doesn't advance the plot but shows the reasons for the city being like it is. Should stuff like that be cut?

[KikiteNeko]

In my final edit, I cut EVERYTHING that doesn't come around later in the plot. But on a first write I come up with all sorts of crap while I'm still fumbling around trying to get a feel for the story/characters... The best way to keep track is to take notes, because as you're writing you'll probably learn more about your own plot.

[J.S Greer]

It's easily difficult. Or is it hardly easy?


Sorry, it just felt appropriate:tongue

[Bufty]

As long as something earns its place in the manuscript - leave it. Whether it has earned its place or not is in the first place the writer's call. Whether everybody else agrees with the writer - well, that's the $100,000 question, isn't it?

What you've mentioned seems reasonable enough to include, provided it doesn't go on and on and on...

What about stuff that doesn't advance the plot but adds something else to the story, like characterisation, or texture to the city. I've got a scene with some police that doesn't advance the plot but shows the reasons for the city being like it is. Should stuff like that be cut?

[Mela]

I've already started editing out things that are really just back story, but that only happened after I was able to separate myself from the storyline and look at it with a fresh pair of eyes.

I have a tendency to let my ego get in the way - I have to be real careful with that - how can I part with my wonderful potentially award-winning prose?

I'm a magazine editor and I recently sent an article back to its author - it was something like 2200 words and I told him it had to be chopped to 800 words. He said, what are you maiking me do, cut off my children?
But that's exactly how it feels sometimes.

[DoctorShade]

I don't know if this would be possible but since it's about 84,000 words right now and you say your only half way through could you rap it up and then turn the rest into a sequel. 84,000 words is good length novel I think. This would make it so you wouldn't have to cut out so much. And I agree with people here about finishing it first and then worrying about editing.

[She Raven]

Ahhh, tis a sad thing to cut your children. That's what I've heard and it's true, after hours of trying to get just the right line, the blood sweat and tears of it. Really, you need to edit out anything that doesn't move the story along, that slows it down, make the reader stop and scratch their head, that's the beauty of the rewrite. Put your work up for a few weeks to a month then go back and look at it with a new set of eyes so to speak. Some books might go through 4 or more rewrites all for the better. tighten up thoses lines, and be all the better for it.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Is there some trick or formula or something you go by to know which strictly necessary info should stay in a book versus which needs to be edited out?

And how do you keep yourself objective through the editing process - how do you know what's absolutely needed and what is not furthering the plot?

My fantasy is up to 84,000 words and it's a little more than halfway done. I want to keep the whole book to 120,000 words. I know there's a lot to be edited out but I'm afraid I might edit out too much. Is it best to maybe over edit and then add in where I think it's necessary?

I'd really like to know what you guys do.

1 - Finish the manuscript. Stash the final draft files in a safe place, because this can get destructive.

2 - Let it sit a couple of weeks while you work on something else.

3 - Write a brief summary, without looking at the manuscript, of the core action - the quest, the relationship, the results. Everything will be judged by how well it supports the core plot.

Write a summary of the world's environmental and social system. Everything will be judged by how well it fits into the world you built. (if non-fantasy, into the milieu of the times or locale, or the requirements fo the non-ficiton work)

4 - Take a copy of the files and load them into ONE HUGE file with chapter headings. Scene by scene, decide whether the scene moves the main character closer to the goal, or away from the goal or neither. Use the text highlighter and mark GREEN = forward, RED = setbacks, GREY = neither.

(It's useful to do this on a paperback of a writer you like ... then fan the pages to see how they mix progress and setbacks)

Don't immediately axe the grey scenes ... they might be giving the reader something about the milieu. These might also be combined with a red or green scene to clean things up.

[Mela]

Hi DoctorShade - yes, I had considered that, but I wanted to see where I'm at first in editing out all the unncessay backstory and the rest - it's a lot of verbage, trust me. You bring out a valid point in dividing it into 2 books - I've thought I run the risk of interfering with the pace by keeping everything in one book.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Mela - Just finish the thing and see what it turns into. I've read many "part one" books that should have been a lot shorter, and never got to part two.

*************
Continuing ... go through and mark anything that is pure "milieu" in a fourth color, and then see if you can blend it in better.

See if scenes need to be moved for better flow or increased suspense ... move them.

That's the "substantive" edit: getting the parts thinned down and the flow straight.

************************
Then go for style and clarity. No sense polishing things that may be axed, is there? Read it out loud and fix the flow, make sure you are showing what is possible to show, not taking the lazy way out by info-dumping.

[Mela]

Good advice - thank you.

[Mud Dauber]

Allan Guthrie, an acquisition editor for Point Blank Press, released a 'white paper' on this subject that sits pinned to the wall of many a writer's office. It's called 'Hunting Down the Pleonasms' (http://www.adventurebooksofseattle.com/abvideos.htm) and has become famous as a valuable and simple tool for cutting out the deadwood.
Thank you so much for this link. I can see why it's pinned to the wall of many a writer's office.:Thumbs: