Burned out and Busted

[WerenCole]

Not many of us lead the lives that we wish to lead. Daunting obligations of this world keep us down, clip our wings, drain our inspiration so that we wallow in our own self pity our bury ourselves in meaningless quandries.

This happens to all of us in one way or another, and I don't mean to vent but the world got me down. My inspiration to write is high, but the energy my lifestyle leaves me at the end of the day is gone, and with it any mental fortitude that gets my BIC as opposed to in my bed.

Discuss what gets you down and how you recitfy the situation along with how you keep writing while in the midst of life's doldrums.

-W

[Ali B]

Hi,
I related to your post.
I just went through a divorce, and though we are still friends my energy is drained. On top of this, one of my best friends (of the opposite sex) has revealed romantic feelings for me. This is great drama for my fiction, I know, but I am just so drained I can't get pen to paper or fingers to keys. Sigh...:gone:

[BlueTexas]

Guilt. I set goals and if I don't reach them, self-imposed guilt for slacking gets my BIC.

That, and permission to write utter crap. If I sit down thinking I have to write a masterpice, I might as well go wash the dishes because I know it's not going to happen. If I give myself permission to write badly, so long as I write, it goes much easier. Besides, at least if it's on the paper I have something to edit. If it's in my head it doesn't count and I'll never know if it's utter crap, or not.

Also, I want to see if I can do it. I don't know if I'm good enough to be a full-time writer. The only way to find out is to write.

[preyer]

when i was very young, i had it in my mind that if you're not setting out to write a masterpiece for the ages, you're wasting your time. now, i just want to be entertaining. for me, just wanting to entertain takes off all the pressure to be a 'great' writer. i have those stories where i want to 'say' something, too, of course, but even then i realize that what i've got to say has been said a million times already and to take *myself* with a grain of salt.

i put zero pressure on myself to perform. that's why i'm not prolific. that's also why i'm almost afraid to try and get published, because then i'd be pressured to keep writing and writing and writing, and that would be, in nothing else, something i impose on myself. i don't want writing to become a chore, in other words. being published and making some side income would be great and all, but i honestly don't see it as my path to happiness.

it's the external things that get to me, if at all. i let most things roll off my back. when my batteries get drained, i just do something different to break the routine that lead me to being down in the first place. i've found that if i've got enough money to pay my bills and the wife isn't pissed-off, things are usually pretty good and i've nothing to complain about, lol.

friend coming onto ya, huh? hey, i was friends with my wife for seven years before hooking up with her (then a few years where she was my best friend, too). not always a bad thing. :) the scariest part is losing your best friend in the process. the phrase we put on all our wedding junk was, 'today i married my friend,' which pretty much summed things up. i mean, you want to marry someone you consider to be your friend, too, right? then who better than your *best* friend? at the same time, i'm the last person you might want to take advice from, heh heh.

[preyer]

edit: i *don't* put pressure on myself to perform. oops.

[zornhau]

I write for 1 hour at lunch in the local pub using my laptop. It works for me.

[triceretops]

Blue Texas said it. Guilt. I know damn well what I should be doing. Have to take friggin No Doz and Motrin just to get the mental stamina to perform and get BIC.

Tri

[Fresie]

I fully relate. It's this stage of tiredness when your mind just doesn't function.

What I do in this situation, I use different tricks every day, I simply try to adapt. The "two hours every day 6 to 8 a.m. no matter what" just won't work when you're tired, I don't fool myself about it. If you can choose between sleep and writing, then you're simply not tired enough. So I just don't stick to any schedule at all, the only goal is to get something done today, however small or hopefully big. Mind you, I'm the ultimate control freak, goal-setter and and schedule keeper, so for me it was a huge mentality change. I had to drop all plans and goals in order to survive as a writer.

I'd say, just take it very easy, spare yourself, don't beat yourself up if you don't meet your goals: you're doing everything you can in this situation, and as long as you still write and produce something to show for your efforts, it's the only thing that matters, IMHO.

[James D. Macdonald]

If you're too tired to write at the end of the day, write at the start of the day.

[Julie Worth]

I saved money for years, and one day I quit my regular job. I was burned out. I left blackened earth behind me, so there was no going back. I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I had lots of time to do it in. One day I began to write. I struggled through a novel, following my instincts. While I waited for an editor to read it, I wrote another. It was much easier the second time. And then another, then another. I put them out there, and a rain of rejections came down. It was dispiriting. Now I’m reworking those first four, and I’ve an agent on one of them. But it seems pointless to write a fifth without selling one of these. Sure, the fifth was the lucky one for Stephen King, but my muse is resistant. She says I have to sell these, or she won’t produce. Prima Donna, that’s what she is.

[Roger J Carlson]

After reading Stephen King's "On Writing", I started writing every morning. I take my laptop to the restaurant, drink coffee, and write for an hour. Every morning I HATE writing, but by the time the hour is done, I LOVE writing and don't want to quit. I've done this for the last four years.

The only thing that gets me down is rejection. Every rejection knocks me for a loop. It doesn't matter how I try to rationalize it, it still hurts. It doesn't matter if it's a "Not for us" rejection or a "This is crap" rejection or a "I like it but don't love it" rejection. (Actually, that last one is the worst. WHY don't they love it?)

Usually, I can't write the next couple of days, but by the third, the trauma has worn off enough that I sigh, take my laptop to the restaurant,....

It never seems to get any better. After four years, you'd think I'd get used to it, but I don't. In many ways, it's worse. I know I'm a better writer now than when I started, but apparently I'm still not good enough.

The best cure for me is read over what I've just written. (Hey! It's not so bad. In fact, it's pretty good! OK, let's keep plugging away. Someday, someone will buy it.) And around it goes.

[Julie Worth]

After reading Stephen King's "On Writing", I started writing every morning.

I did too! I finished On Writing, and that night had a dream—one of the oddest I’ve ever had. It kept bugging me, and hours later I realized what it was: the situation. Write from a situation, King said, and my subconscious had given it to me.

[zornhau]

We've got BIC. Perhaps we need to add JDI to the lexicon - Just Do It.

[SRHowen]

BIC only works if the cat will get out of the way of the keyboard---

Shawn

[Fresie]

BIC only works if the cat will get out of the way of the keyboard---

Shawn

Just sit on the bloody thing. :faint:

All this conversation about writing first thing in the morning sounds especially masochistic today as the daylight saving time starts, at least here in Europe, don't you think? The clocks go forward... they rob us of one hour of sleeping/writing time.
On the other hand, it gets easier to write at night.:Sun:

[Jamesaritchie]

My inspiration to write is high, but the energy my lifestyle leaves me at the end of the day is gone, and with it any mental fortitude that gets my BIC as opposed to in my bed.

Discuss what gets you down and how you recitfy the situation along with how you keep writing while in the midst of life's doldrums.

-W

I really don't mean this to be snide, but if your lifestyle leaves you drained at the end of the day, then either change your lifestyle or write at the beginning of the day.

To be honest, the only things that ever get me down are the few things in life I can't do anything about. I have diabetes and glaucoma, along with a few other health problems, and on occasion, these interfere with everything I do, and this can get me down a bit. But even here, choice plays a huge role. Depending on medical advances, I may always have these health problems, and they may put me in an early grave, but how I respond to them is a choice.

I don't know. I guess I've always thought that you decide what it is you wish to do, and then make whatever changes it takes to do it.

[Sassenach]

Is there anything you can change about your lifestyle to give you more time?

[Torin]

If you have to ride a bus or subway to work, carry a notebook and pen and write by hand. Invest in a small cassette recorder if you commute by car and dictate into it. We all waste a lot of time doing things we don't need to do (like coming here and reading and writing replies ;) ) and ten minutes here and there add up. I like writing by hand. When I go to type the story in, it gets its first rewrite and I feel like I'm getting somewhere.

By the way, what is BIC?

Torin, who *should* be working on Book #3 in a series, but is online instead. :D

[Susan Gable]

We've got BIC. Perhaps we need to add JDI to the lexicon - Just Do It.

In my writing groups, we call it BIC-HOK. Butt-in-Chair, Hands-on-Keyboard.

Of course, one can have the hands on the keyboard, doing things they're not supposed to be doing, like writing emails, or posting on BB's. <G>

Susan G.

[Jamesaritchie]

In my writing groups, we call it BIC-HOK. Butt-in-Chair, Hands-on-Keyboard.

Of course, one can have the hands on the keyboard, doing things they're not supposed to be doing, like writing emails, or posting on BB's. <G>

Susan G.

Many in a writing group I used to belong to used BIC-HOK. Some found considerably more success when they added DI to it, for BIC-HOK-DI.

Although, come to think of it, I believe it was BIC-DI-HOK. Butt in Chair, Disconnect Intenet, Hands on Keyboard.

One of teh advantages to writing my first drafts in longhand is that I'm nowhere near the computer, a so the internet isn't a distraction while writing. I sometimes suspect that if the same amount of time was spent wrting as is spent on the internet, the world would be hip deep in finished novels.

It always seems rather iroic to find someone posting on the internet that they can't find the time to write.

[Ella]

It always seems rather iroic to find someone posting on the internet that they can't find the time to write.

It's a lot easier to sit down and ask a simple question, looking for some feedback and motivation, that it is to delve into a story. I'm quite surprised at the reactions. We're all here for different reasons - getting on someone's case because they are here too seems bizarre.

Werencole, I know what you mean about having the motivation, and not the energy when you finally have a moment. As hard as it seems, getting up a bit earlier really does work. Or try the lunchtime thing. Try it ALL, and see what works for you!

[Jamesaritchie]

It's a lot easier to sit down and ask a simple question, looking for some feedback and motivation, that it is to delve into a story. I'm quite surprised at the reactions. We're all here for different reasons - getting on someone's case because they are here too seems bizarre.

Werencole, I know what you mean about having the motivation, and not the energy when you finally have a moment. As hard as it seems, getting up a bit earlier really does work. Or try the lunchtime thing. Try it ALL, and see what works for you!

I'm not getting on anyone's case, and wasn't talking about anyone specifically. Just a general statement in reaction to a mention of the internet and forums. It is something I see constantly on the internet, and with many writers I encounter, it's a habitual thing. Add up all their posts on several forums, and you find enough time to write two novels, yet they're complaining about having no time to write.

Sure, it's a lot easier to sit down and ask a simple question than it is to delve into a story. But what does easy have to do with it? And when you get right down to it, why is it any harder to write than to talk about writing? Easy or hard, if you want to write, you use whatever spare time you have to write.

As for motivation, well, I'm not a real big fan of needing motivation to write.
I'll buy into motivation for writing when I hear people talking about motivation for other activities. I can't remember ever hearing anyone say, "I'd really love to spend a few hours surfing the net, but I just can't get motivated." Or, "I'd love to just sit in my recliner and watch TV all evening, but where's my motivation?" Or, "I'd love to spend dome time playing video games, if only I could get motivated."

It always seemed to me the only motivation that should be needed to write is that you would rather be writing than doing anything else. Of course, if you really would rathe ruse every spare minute you have for writing, rather than using it in other ways, you really don't need to look for motivation.

In my experience, "motivation" is a word used by those who find reasons not to write.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aiming at werencole, and for all I know werencole is a writer who almost never gets online, and who writes every spare minute. But I do find it extremely ironic when writers spend time on the internet complaining about not having the time to write. And I just have to shake my head in wonder when a writer talks about needing motivation to write.

You should write because you love to write. If there's something else you'd really rather do with your spare time, that's the thing you should be doing. You won't need any motivation for it.

[zornhau]

Rereading the original question:
My inspiration to write is high, but the energy my lifestyle leaves me at the end of the day is gone, and with it any mental fortitude that gets my BIC as opposed to in my bed.
-W

I find that our friend Were N'Cole - no doubt some exotic ?African lycanthrope - is asking about time & energy, rather than motivation.

In my experience - and summarising other posts- it works like this:

If the draining lifestyle is temporary (e.g. new job, sick, increased workload): relax and get other jobs out of the way, e.g. filing, DIY. If it's permanent, then find and exploit niches, and declutter if possible.

Niches - odd regular moments - may exist 1st thing in the morning, or - like me - at lunch. The trick is to be able to dive straight in. I work from outlines, which helps. I've read of pro writers always leaving off with an incomplete sentence, so that they've got a starting point for next time.

However, some de-cluttering - AKA life laundry - is inevitable if you really want to write. You can only do so much with your time.

If you want time to write you need to bite the bullet and, e.g., prioritise your social life, cut down on computer games, drop hobbies, exit extraneous social circles, step away from commitee roles, and avoid getting a hangover on days you intend to write.

Above all, you have to stop treating writing time as flexible slush time.

[Alphabeter]

My famndamily irritated me yesterday. More information posted here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=137225&postcount=985).

I dealt with it by eating five pieces of pie (I made two pies and had to try them in addition to the chocolate) instead of my intended three.

I've paid for it with my indigestion. This morning saw bananas and sherbert.

But for my "down with writing" times, I just shelve everything and take a walk, watch a movie, cook something weird and see my niece. If that doesn't work, I read-a LOT. My eyes are worse than my grandfather's but I'm managed to keep from blowing up physically.

So if I can't be trusted because I'm not a chubby cook, can I be trusted as an author with bad eyes?

[WerenCole]

yeah yeah. . . I get it. . . well, my lifestyle has changed since the start of this thread and I'm sure there will be a lot of time to write now that I just got fired. . . yes, yes. . . everybody gets their godda#* wish and mine was to get out of the restaurant and habnabbery involved so I could get back to seriously working on my WIP. . . I think you guys missed the point a touch though. . . it is not so much about not having the time but rather the pyschosis that one goes through during a difficult and troubling time in life. . . not so much actual nut and bolts minutes and hours, but the ability to rise above the craziness and drama and bring forth the inner story teller. . . oh shucks, forget it

[mistri]

I understand where people are coming from when they say they don't have time/energy to write.

A year or so ago, I felt the same way. I was working in book publishing and I found it almost impossible to write, I was so mentally drained (whether at the beginning or end of the day) by the amount of time I was spending on other people's work.

I'd get hurt when people on forums suggested that I didn't want 'it' enough, that if I really loved writing I'd be doing it every spare moment. I wrote when I could, but I couldn't find a way - at the time - of doing it on a regular basis. I resented being told I'd never make it as a writer when I was in my first job out of uni. I still sympathise with people who feel that they're in a similar situation.

However, now things have changed for me, and I wonder what I could've achieved if only I'd been prepared to try a little harder. I now look on that period as a time where I had to learn what it took to write - so it wasn't a total waste.

Recently, I moved to a different part of the country, so had to get a new job - one that wasn't in book publishing. Whether it was the job or the move, I immediately felt less stressed. Eventually, I made myself sit at the computer and try to write every day. Soon enough, it paid off, and on days when I couldn't get to a computer I missed it. Being disciplined seemed to make the writing easier over time, as I feel less concerned about 'getting into it' now, whereas before I always felt pushed for time. Now I can happily write away even if I've only got ten minutes free. There are days when I don't feel like it, or when the writing comes slower, but generally I've found that practice makes - not perfect - but the writing's easier to approach, easier to do.

Now I've completed a novel and am about to edit it. It might be unpublishable crap, but now I know I can do it, I'm prepared to write another one, and another one until... who knows, but I'd like to think that the more I learn, and the more I write, the more likely I am to make it. And you can too, even if it takes some time to realise it.

[jdkiggins]

werencole,
I'll just say this:

[Fresie]

Thank you, mistri! You've really given me the strength to go on.

[BlueTexas]

it is not so much about not having the time but rather the pyschosis that one goes through during a difficult and troubling time in life. . . not so much actual nut and bolts minutes and hours, but the ability to rise above the craziness and drama and bring forth the inner story teller. . . oh shucks, forget it

That's not something anyone can tell you how to do. That's a state of mind you have to find within yourself.

[Jamesaritchie]

yeah yeah. . . I get it. . . well, my lifestyle has changed since the start of this thread and I'm sure there will be a lot of time to write now that I just got fired. . . yes, yes. . . everybody gets their godda#* wish and mine was to get out of the restaurant and habnabbery involved so I could get back to seriously working on my WIP. . . I think you guys missed the point a touch though. . . it is not so much about not having the time but rather the pyschosis that one goes through during a difficult and troubling time in life. . . not so much actual nut and bolts minutes and hours, but the ability to rise above the craziness and drama and bring forth the inner story teller. . . oh shucks, forget it

No, I saw the point, which was why I wasn't aiming at you specifically. In my opinion, there's really no excuse for not finding the time to write. We all have twenty-four hours in a day, and we all have a choice in how we use at least a few of those hours.

Craziness and troubling times are another matter. Now, just for the way my mind works, writing is usually easier during the crazy and troubling times. It becomes a refuge, a place I can go to get away from the craziness. I don't rise above the craziness and drama around me, I hide from it by writing. It's a matter of, "Screw this, I'm going to go write."

And in the end, I think how writing is handled during the rough times is often a reflection of how it is handled during the good times. If writing everyday is a habit, if it's something you've done day in and day out for months and months or years and years to the point where you really feel abnormal on a day when you don't write, then the crazy times may slow it down a bit, but they won't stop it.

[Jamesaritchie]

Eventually, I made myself sit at the computer and try to write every day. Soon enough, it paid off, and on days when I couldn't get to a computer I missed it. Being disciplined seemed to make the writing easier over time, as I feel less concerned about 'getting into it' now, whereas before I always felt pushed for time. Now I can happily write away even if I've only got ten minutes free. There are days when I don't feel like it, or when the writing comes slower, but generally I've found that practice makes - not perfect - but the writing's easier to approach, easier to do.

.

I think this is the point. If writing isn't a habit, just about anything and everything can be a reason not to write. The energy won't be there, you start using words like "motivation" and "inspiration." But if you can find the discipline to make yourself sit down and write each and every day, it really doesn't take very long at all to make writing a habit. Pyschologists say it takes only twenty-one days for the average person to form a habit. Once this is done, once writing becomes a habit, almost nothing can interfere with it. Motivation is there, inspirtaion shows up at the keyboard when you do.

The simple truth is, if you don't write pretty much each and every day during the good times, you probably won't write at all during the rough times.

There are certainly some jobs that make writing tough, and I suspect being an editor is right at the top of the list. I've known several professional, prolific writers who signed on as editor somewhere, and instantly had trouble writing anything at all of their own. So almost all of them quit being editors.

But writers write. There simply isn't any other way of becoming a writer. So you do whatever it takes to write, even if this means changing jobs, changing friends, or changing your lifestyle. There's never a guarantee of success, but not writing is a guarantee of failure.

More than anything else, I think a writer who really wants to succeed must make writing a habit. It has to become so much a part of your daily routine that you go do it no matter what. If you do this, if you really make writing a habit, then the muse, the inner storyteller, inspiration, whatever you want to call it, will show up. Will, in fact, be there waiting for you when you sit down.

[Mistook]

Regular, old A-holes can be downright sinister when it comes to belittling the very idea of writing a novel. My boss, Dan is a great example. He pays me next to nothing, so I live like a pauper and I'm always behind on my bills. Occasionally my financial problems affect work - the car isn't running, or I can't afford new boots, or whatever.

He loves to give me the lecture, "Pat, we've offered you plenty of overtime, but you never take it. Bla bla bla..."

I always remind him that I'm working on a novel, and therefore can't work overtime.

He always laughs and shakes his head.

I prefer to write at night. I've always been a night owl, so I write from 9PM until 2AM every night. This means I'm usually a few minutes late in the morning, and I'm a little bleary eyed for the first hour.

Dan's second favorite lecture, "Pat, you can't go through your life being tired and broke all the time. Bla bla bla...."

I remind him I'm working on a novel by night.

He shakes his head and laughs.

He'd love to see the day I "come to my senses" and give up this silly writing gig to become a loyal, responsible surf.

I'll die first! :)

[brinkett]

I prefer to write at night.
Me too. My best hours are from about 10PM to whenever, but I work full time at a regular 9 to 5 job and I'm past the age where I can get away with 5 or 6 hours of sleep (and 7 is pushing it, especially several nights in a row). So I'm lucky if I can write an hour or two a day.

The getting up early routine wouldn't work for me. You'd think it would because I'm a morning person, but that's the problem. I'm too hyper to sit down. And often I've been up (too) late writing the night before.

[Ella]

give up this silly writing gig to become a loyal, responsible surf


:ROFL:That's freakin funny!
I am anti-serf right along with you.
Thanks for sharing your story. Good for you for sticking with what matters to you. I hope you can keep financially stress-free as you do it.

[zornhau]

I think you guys missed the point a touch though. . . it is not so much about not having the time but rather the pyschosis that one goes through during a difficult and troubling time in life. . . not so much actual nut and bolts minutes and hours, but the ability to rise above the craziness and drama and bring forth the inner story teller. . . oh shucks, forget it

Thought I covered that:
If the draining lifestyle is temporary (e.g. new job, sick, increased workload): relax and get other jobs out of the way, e.g. filing, DIY.
Sometimes there's no point in banging your head against the literary wall! Sorry about you getting canned. If it's any consolation, I find bad work experiences are very useful for my fiction.
Z

[Galoot]

I have one of those jobs that drains the creativity right out of me. It's a writing job, not ironically.

The contract terms changed drastically, and I'm now doing less than 1/5th the work and making less than 1/5th the money I'd quit my day job for. +++angst+++

On the flip side, I have five times the creative energy than I had before the contract changed. +++thrill+++

Churning out word-pap on demand really crushes the spirit. But while living like a pauper sucks (eh, Mistook?), I have more energy at the keyboard than ever. Good things can come in some real strange packages. If I'd known that living well below the poverty line could have such a positive effect on me I'd have taken a paycut years ago.

Madness. I'm almost looking forward to the day when I can no longer afford net access. ;)

Here's my advice if you really want to write. Sell everything you own and live under a tarp.

[Galoot]

Oh, and live somewhere warm. They charge for heat nowadays.

[veinglory]

Being a behaviourist psychologist I have a slightly different take on things. It is very easy, and very true, to say 'writers write'. It may not, however, be very helpful to those who are struggling.

If you want to write, but are not, there are definitely things you can do. Not just beat yourself up about it, but make some changes in your environment. It is through our environment that we can change ourselves. Here are some small suggestions for the stalled, blocked and generally dejected to consider:

--What are your goals for your writing? Consider both the distant and uncertain goals (e.g. become world famous novelist) and the most immediate goal that would still be satisfying (e.g. finish a short story and submit it to a market, finish the first draft of a novella).

--Break your goal down into simple stages such as, plot outlines, 500 words a day, find market, send. Make sure these stages are simple and fairly easy. If you don't know how to do any of the steps put in extra steps for research (i.e. ask around at the cooler for the location of market lists, look through the lists making notes, shortlist markets, choose one).

--Schedule the steps into your life. You may not be able to work on it every day, but you should have some evenings, weekends etc. Try and make more time--for example get up earlier in the mornings or join a co-op creche. Tell your significant others about your 'wiritng time' and ask them to respect it (show them the progress you are making so they know it is worth it!). Even an hour every couple of days is a start. Allow for the loss of some of this time due to unforseen problems, and grab extra time when you can (waiting in a long queue, can't sleep?). Make the goals realistic and make it a habit to meet them.

--Mark your progress to your goal. Use tick lists, graphs of words written, files of rejection and acceptance letters. Keep an aspirational picture near your writing area to remind you of what you really want.

--Tell everyone about your goals. Real people if possible, online people too. Make goal setting threads. Join communities of like-minded people. The best groups are often small, specific to your genre and include a range of people from beginner to published. If you can find a special mentor or critique partner, even better! make sure you leave time to give help as well as get it!

--Arrange rewards. Is there something you want, until that story is submitted, you can't have it! Pick a treat for meeting your goal. if possible give somebody else control over the reward so that you can't cheat! Keep a token of the reward to remind you of it as you work.

Sometimes I don't need all this furore to write, I just write. But when I need some help and encouragement I do this sort of thing to get me going.

[arkady]

I don't normally bother with this sort of touchie-feelie topic, but this morning I'm in the mood for an exception.

I finished the first book in a seven-book fantasy series three years ago. My beta readers (including at least one published writer) thought it was great, and absolutely unique. I subsequently revised it seven times, polishing and tightening it till I couldn't find anything more to change.

While I was working on the sequels, I came up with a Dynamite Query Letter (tm) that, again, the beta readers thought was sure to get attention.

I made certain that my query letter, synopsis and manuscript were in 100% proper format, with the manuscript in Courier font and every margin and header certified correct to the last millimeter.

I Did My Homework(tm), researching all the agents carefully, making sure that they handled the fantasy genre, giving preference to the AAR agents.

In each case, I Sent Them Exactly What They Requested, Nothing More, Nothing Less(tm).

Fifty-three form rejections slips later, I still haven't gotten a bite. That's form rejections -- no comments, no scrawled "Your concept sucks" or "there's no market for this;" nothing handwritten whatever, no clue of any kind as to what it is that the agents don't like.

Oh, yeah -- that's not entirely true. I did get exactly one (1) request for partial, from an obscure agency in California. The partial was returned to me with -- yes, you guessed it -- a form rejection slip.

I've tried revising the query letter half a dozen times. Everyone to whom I show it thinks it's just fine. Made no difference. I haven't the faintest idea what it is that's failing to push anyone's buttons.

In the meantime, I've finished the six sequels; the saga is complete -- and until I can find a home for Book One, they're going nowhere at all.

During this time, I've slogged through the usual personal woes -- plodding day job, deaths of close relatives, not enough money, car troubles, depression, depression. Did I mention depression?

Throughout all of this jolly little hegira, I've never once stopped writing, or even considered quitting. I still haul out the laptop when I get home and spend the evening working on the novel (a spinoff from the first series, but not directly related to it, so it stands on its own). I have absolutely no reason whatever to expect that this one will be treated any differently than the last one, but I keep on doing it, day after day, week after week, month after month. I've lost what little faith I ever had in the efficacy of the American publishing system, and if I have to read "If your book is any good, it will get published" one more time, I'm going to throw up on my keyboard. Bleats about the hard life of the poor, poor agents who have to wade through all that nasty slush make me see not just red but full-blown crimson. Whining publishers who sing the blues about how there just aren't enough good new writers to keep their marketing geniuses busy -- while I watch the bargain bins at the local bookstore overflow with tepid potboilers that no one wanted -- leave me screaming to new heights of creative obscenity.

But I'm still writing. I haven't quit. I complain, but I haven't substituted complaining for writing. And I'm not terribly sympathetic to those who do.

[vig]

if you don't have talent, furgetaboutit.

if you have talent and you're a softie, forgetaboutit.

if you have talent, and you're not a softy, f-

good luck to the poster above i think you're all right.

vig

[Jamesaritchie]

I don't normally bother with this sort of touchie-feelie topic, but this morning I'm in the mood for an exception.

I finished the first book in a seven-book fantasy series three years ago. My beta readers (including at least one published writer) thought it was great, and absolutely unique. I subsequently revised it seven times, polishing and tightening it till I couldn't find anything more to change.

While I was working on the sequels, I came up with a Dynamite Query Letter (tm) that, again, the beta readers thought was sure to get attention.

I made certain that my query letter, synopsis and manuscript were in 100% proper format, with the manuscript in Courier font and every margin and header certified correct to the last millimeter.

I Did My Homework(tm), researching all the agents carefully, making sure that they handled the fantasy genre, giving preference to the AAR agents.

In each case, I Sent Them Exactly What They Requested, Nothing More, Nothing Less(tm).

Fifty-three form rejections slips later, I still haven't gotten a bite. That's form rejections -- no comments, no scrawled "Your concept sucks" or "there's no market for this;" nothing handwritten whatever, no clue of any kind as to what it is that the agents don't like.

Oh, yeah -- that's not entirely true. I did get exactly one (1) request for partial, from an obscure agency in California. The partial was returned to me with -- yes, you guessed it -- a form rejection slip.

I've tried revising the query letter half a dozen times. Everyone to whom I show it thinks it's just fine. Made no difference. I haven't the faintest idea what it is that's failing to push anyone's buttons.

In the meantime, I've finished the six sequels; the saga is complete -- and until I can find a home for Book One, they're going nowhere at all.

During this time, I've slogged through the usual personal woes -- plodding day job, deaths of close relatives, not enough money, car troubles, depression, depression. Did I mention depression?

Throughout all of this jolly little hegira, I've never once stopped writing, or even considered quitting. I still haul out the laptop when I get home and spend the evening working on the novel (a spinoff from the first series, but not directly related to it, so it stands on its own). I have absolutely no reason whatever to expect that this one will be treated any differently than the last one, but I keep on doing it, day after day, week after week, month after month. I've lost what little faith I ever had in the efficacy of the American publishing system, and if I have to read "If your book is any good, it will get published" one more time, I'm going to throw up on my keyboard. Bleats about the hard life of the poor, poor agents who have to wade through all that nasty slush make me see not just red but full-blown crimson. Whining publishers who sing the blues about how there just aren't enough good new writers to keep their marketing geniuses busy -- while I watch the bargain bins at the local bookstore overflow with tepid potboilers that no one wanted -- leave me screaming to new heights of creative obscenity.

But I'm still writing. I haven't quit. I complain, but I haven't substituted complaining for writing. And I'm not terribly sympathetic to those who do.

If your book is any good, it will get published, IF you can actually get it in the hands of an agent or editor. With many, this is the problem. It sounds like you either have poor beta readers (A very common problem. If I believed every writer who passed along the information that his or her beta readers thought the novel was great, I'd have to believe no one has ever written a bad novel.), or your query letter simply isn't saying what it needs to be saying.

But there's such a difference between a query letter that works for a pro writer, and a query letter that works for an unpublished writer, that even many pro writers forget what it takes to make a query letter work for a new writer. The truth is, when I write a query letter, it doesn't have to be very good, and it really doesn't even have to closely follow the novel I eventually write. For many pro writers, a query letter is just a letter of intent, an excuse for the publisher to give you a contract and an advance check. It works this way because you've already proven you can write novels readers will buy, so the query letter is almost a formality.

Most first time novelists haven't proven this, so a query letter has to be something really special to receive a yes. I've alwqys believed a good query letter from a new writer is one that first sells the writer, rather than the novel.

For many new writers, a query letter is just a way agents and editors can reject something without going to the time and trouble of actually reading a manuscript, so there often must be something in the letter than makes an agent or an editor believe this is a writer who can actually write well enough to make money. Good short story credits, good contest wins, an MFA, or six weeks at Clarion are all things that might get the job done.

Barring any of these, a query letter from a new writer needs to be perfect. Not a spelling or grammar error anywhere, and it had better not look like a query that is being sent to a dozen other agents at the same time with nothing but the agent or editor's name changed. A query letter from a new writer needs to show why this writer thinks I'm the perfect agent or editor for his particular novel. This is crucial. Generic query letters from new writers are almost always a ocmplete waste of time and energy.

Yes, sometimes a query works for a new writer, but most often, a query letter is a horrible tool for a new writer. At least if you want to attract a good agent/good publisher.

A new writer absolutely must get the writing itself in front of an agent or editor. I can look at the first three chapters of a novel and get a very good idea of how well you write. I can even look at the first three pages, and thereby have a fairly good idea of how well you write, though I still won't know if that particular novel is publishable. I can't look at a query letter and tell how well you write. I don't think anyone can.

Despite the way guidelines are often worded, many agents and editors will look at partials, usually the first three chapters and an outline.

Agents and editors rejecting your queries doesn't necessarily mean anything except you aren't saying what they want to hear, or your queries are too generic. But if agent after agent and editor after editor rejects your partials, there's a problem with the novel, no matter what beta readers say.

I wouldn't pay much attention to what's in the bargain bin. Publishers do publish some stinkers, but this is seldon because they can't tell a good novel from a poor one. As a publisher, you have a certain number of slots to fill. To do this, you accept the best novels that come. But this still leaves you with many slots, so you fill these slots with the best of the worst, so to speak.

And quite a few bargain bin books have a very good sales record, but the sales have slowed, and the publisher, rightfully, doesn't want to pay inventory taxes on all the books still in the warehouse.

But the simple truth is that what's in the bargain bin has no bearing on what's in the slush pile. As one editor said, "If you think what I buy is bad, you should see what I reject."

It's true. Aas bad as some of what publishers buy may be, and most of it is pretty darned good, even if it doesn't sell terribly well, what the reject is infinitely, unspeakably worse.

[Kree Atv Khurz]

My Fellow Group Patients,

I'm almost 72, older than most of you, and worked 30 years in various kinds of journalism in newspapers, government, electronic warfare pubs, a naval air station, and chambers of commerce. Writing, editing, photography, page design, etc. were my bread and butter, but little notoriety or real money. I also worked at many other things to go to college and feed and house my family (they are not sure whether or not to appreciate that, but they are doing pretty good, I think).

But the writing, and all kinds of creative persuits, have always been the most fun, and I'm glad to remember all that.

When I retired finally (from a VA Hospital outpatient dept, for Heaven's Sake!) I moved to The CheapThird World, got bored, and bought another computer and soon started MY BOOK. I've been writing on it five years. I understood in the beginning that it is therapy for a troubled mind, not a ticket to anything except maybe kindness and some enthusiasm for living. Being PUBLISHED don't mean spit, except in your own head. All creative work is, in fact, therapy for troubled minds; discovery and identification as art by flighty marketing types is an accident comparable to winning the lottery.

So, my advice to all of you younger writers is to get a regular job and give it your very best, keep writing for your mental health and self-image, and be easy on yourself. As some wisely advise, just turning off the internet and teevee and opening up the old word processor page can start the creative juices and take you away temporarily to a better place than any drug can (though I have found it can reactivate PTSD for a little while). And don't underestimate the power of disciplined music (or whatever) to tune your brain before you start. For that, I play a song on my Yamaha keyboard until I'm pleased, or play through the computer one of my long midi playlists of progressively more elegant keyboard etudes by the Bachs and other Old Masters.

You probably know a lot more than I do about this, but it seems to me that the bottom is falling out of the traditional publishing business, leaving self-publishing, PoD, eBook Readers, crumbling copyrights, and who knows what. I was preparing a first-50pp follow-on this morning to my e-querry to the Harris Agency of San Diego, the namesake of which supposedly was listed in Herman's book and worked a few years in publishing, when I looked again in P&P for the agency name and was shocked to see that it is not recommended now, though the two agents' names have no such caution. So, I didn't have to compose the detailed response her partner and fellow agent requested yesterday. The 50 pages I can use another time, perhaps. I read everything on their nice website, but didn't find any non-fiction memoir like mine, and I thought it odd that all their published writers were published in China, possibly the Third World's worse copyright offender. If anyone knows of a way today to make some decent money, you know, just to help out with the bills, maybe save up for a trip back to Oaxaca, I'd like to hear it. Please, no E-Bay schemes or real-money investments.


Cheers, Creative Curse

[arkady]

I It sounds like you either have poor beta readers (A very common problem. If I believed every writer who passed along the information that his or her beta readers thought the novel was great, I'd have to believe no one has ever written a bad novel.), or your query letter simply isn't saying what it needs to be saying.

Since you seem to be in a position to know, I'm more than willing to accept that assessment.

I've always believed a good query letter from a new writer is one that first sells the writer, rather than the novel.

For many new writers, a query letter is just a way agents and editors can reject something without going to the time and trouble of actually reading a manuscript, so there often must be something in the letter than makes an agent or an editor believe this is a writer who can actually write well enough to make money. Good short story credits, good contest wins, an MFA, or six weeks at Clarion are all things that might get the job done.

I freely admit that I have none of those. Part of my job as a digital artist and animator, however, is to write for publication on these subjects for a popular audience, and I make sure to mention these things. Doesn't seem to have impressed anyone yet, alas.


Barring any of these, a query letter from a new writer needs to be perfect. Not a spelling or grammar error anywhere...

I'm with you there.


...and it had better not look like a query that is being sent to a dozen other agents at the same time with nothing but the agent or editor's name changed. A query letter from a new writer needs to show why this writer thinks I'm the perfect agent or editor for his particular novel. This is crucial.

Much, much harder. Those of us who aren't in the industry -- or who haven't been published yet -- have no feel at all for what agents want to read in a query. I've studied plenty of examples of successful queries, and I've never seen anything in them that couldn't, as you say, have been sent to someone else with a different saluation line.

I'm not trying to be pugnacious and argumentative, though I don't doubt that I'm frustrated enough to sound that way. It's just that these things that are so clear to you, as an insider, so to speak, are as opaque and confusing as cuneiform tablets to those of us who haven't yet broken in. I honestly have no idea what would make any given agent think that he's the perfect agent for my novel.

A new writer absolutely must get the writing itself in front of an agent or editor. I can look at the first three chapters of a novel and get a very good idea of how well you write. I can even look at the first three pages, and thereby have a fairly good idea of how well you write, though I still won't know if that particular novel is publishable. I can't look at a query letter and tell how well you write. I don't think anyone can.

No argument there. And yet most of the advice given to new writers contradicts this, telling us that the query not only does, but should, tell its recepient how well we write.

Despite the way guidelines are often worded, many agents and editors will look at partials, usually the first three chapters and an outline.

Again, I can't quibble with this. But just look at how many published writers and agents tell us, time after time, on this forum, on others, and in how-to books, that we must send an agent exactly what the guidelines specify; no more, no less.

With so much contradictory advice, how can I know who's right? How can any of us?

You yourself must have gone through a time when you didn't know the answers to these questions, either. How did you discover them? Luck? Knowing the right people? Letters of fire appearing on your office wall?

Agents and editors rejecting your queries doesn't necessarily mean anything except you aren't saying what they want to hear, or your queries are too generic. But if agent after agent and editor after editor rejects your partials, there's a problem with the novel, no matter what beta readers say.

Yes, true. Though in my own case, not enough of them have seen the partial for that to have become an issue.

I wouldn't pay much attention to what's in the bargain bin. Publishers do publish some stinkers, but this is seldon because they can't tell a good novel from a poor one.

Mmmmm... Well, there I'm willing to be pugnacious and argumentative!

At any rate, I appreciate the response. So often I feel like I'm drowning in the dark, with a dozen people in a lifeboat, nearby yet out of reach, yelling contradictory instructions to me on how to swim.

And yet -- to return to the original topic of this thread -- I'm still writing.

[Mistook]

"I always remind him that I'm working on a novel, and therefore can't work overtime." mistook

are you pathetic. give me a break you freakin' pansy. i'd fire your asss or throw you off a ladder if you pulled that crap with me. stop compalinin you morone and show up for work.

i work 80 hours a week 8 months out of the year and still find time to work and never show up late. i own the business, but i'm their everyday.

anybody with any desire and will would work two days over time a month, or even four a month and that extra money will help you, not only with your boss, but your bills and not affect your work one bit. it's about making it better, not worse.

the bottom line with writers is that they put the world at arms length when they have no chance to sell anyway.

get a grip.

vig


Sticks and stones, Vig. :)

If 80 hour days are what you want, then more power to you.

[Nateskate]

Regular, old A-holes can be downright sinister when it comes to belittling the very idea of writing a novel. My boss, Dan is a great example. He pays me next to nothing, so I live like a pauper and I'm always behind on my bills. Occasionally my financial problems affect work - the car isn't running, or I can't afford new boots, or whatever.

He loves to give me the lecture, "Pat, we've offered you plenty of overtime, but you never take it. Bla bla bla..."

I always remind him that I'm working on a novel, and therefore can't work overtime.

He always laughs and shakes his head.

I prefer to write at night. I've always been a night owl, so I write from 9PM until 2AM every night. This means I'm usually a few minutes late in the morning, and I'm a little bleary eyed for the first hour.

Dan's second favorite lecture, "Pat, you can't go through your life being tired and broke all the time. Bla bla bla...."

I remind him I'm working on a novel by night.

He shakes his head and laughs.

He'd love to see the day I "come to my senses" and give up this silly writing gig to become a loyal, responsible surf.

I'll die first! :)

It's obviously very hard to dedicate to anything artistic. Art is risky business,and it's also done for a different reason than most other ventures. Our creative side feeds our spirit so to speak, but it may not put much food on the table. So, artists by trade, are often people who risk something for their art.

To me writing is art. To some, cooking may be art, and to others organizing and administrating. Someone who administrates well, may be compensated well. Art is more of an all or nothing trade. You have your multi-millionares, but the rest will always do it as their second job.

I didn't begin writing to make it big, I wrote mostly because I wanted to, and gave it away like people give pies to friends. Even now, when I think at all about making money from writing, I think in terms of suplimental income, rather than windfall income.

Strange as it may seem, I think we all come here as a mini-fix, because for the most part, it's writing for friends, mini-commentaries, sometimes the "Dear Abby" of the internet on a given issue. But Dear Abby is Dear Abby, because people are entertained by seeing what someone else thinks, especially someone who they assume might have some insight into an issue. I find other people's comments entertaining, and I hope some find mine entertaining. But frankly, when I'm away from a keyboard, I'll only pine away, looking for the next time I can get my fingers on one. Click Click Click, and I'm in my element.

[karenranney]

Some writers write through grief, stress, depression, and despair.
Some don't.
I happen to be one of the grief, etc. writers, but most of my friends aren't. They can't write unless their life is calm.
Take a deep breath, relax, and concentrate on just living for awhile.

[BlueTexas]

"I always remind him that I'm working on a novel, and therefore can't work overtime." mistook

are you pathetic. give me a break you freakin' pansy. i'd fire your asss or throw you off a ladder if you pulled that crap with me. stop compalinin you morone and show up for work.

i work 80 hours a week 8 months out of the year and still find time to work and never show up late. i own the business, but i'm their everyday.

anybody with any desire and will would work two days over time a month, or even four a month and that extra money will help you, not only with your boss, but your bills and not affect your work one bit. it's about making it better, not worse.

the bottom line with writers is that they put the world at arms length when they have no chance to sell anyway.

get a grip.

vig

That's a big blanket statement to make, especially assuming you're a writer too, else you wouldn't be here, right?

I work six days a week, plus take care of my house, grocery shop, all the rest and sometimes manage to have a life, and I write and manage to get stuff published.

I'm sure lots of others here do, too.

We don't all put the world at arms length, and we do have a chance to sell.