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Oasilhael
03-19-2008, 10:48 AM
In my novel in the working, my protagonist has banded together with several misfits who are against the local tyrant for their own reasons. Over the months, I have become progressively frustrated with one of these characters who I now feel should be cropped out of the story entirely. However, he does have many lines and serves as a mentor figure to the other main characters, so if I erase him from my fantasy world, I will have the burden of assigning these lines and tasks to other characters. This will give extra weight to some characters while leaving others with comparatively small importance, creating an uneasy imbalance among my protagonists.

What do I do? I clearly can't take him out because of above reasons. I also can't make short work of him and have him die in some fiery explosion later on, because that will prompt the stereotype of "the old mentor dying to protect his students", and I want to avoid all possible stereotypes. Does anyone have good ideas on how to deal with this annoying guy most feasibly?

While I'm at it anyway: have any of you had similar problems and if so, how did you solve them?

mscelina
03-19-2008, 10:50 AM
I killed him. Spectacularly. And I enjoyed it so much that I invented a way to kill him again. Even more spectacularly.

You know what's really funny about this response? It's true. *grin*

Mythica
03-19-2008, 12:15 PM
Yea...you definitely want to avoid that cliche.

I think if you did something a little different with his death, you could get past it. Maybe you could throw in a twist where he ends up betraying his students, make it appear as though he did, and then kill him off only for his students to find out later that he didn't really betray them.....??? lol I don't know anything about your character so that was probably the worst suggestion ever. I say just play around with ideas. Good luck!

*edit* Oh! To answer the last question...I'm killing off one of the main characters in my series in book 5, but it is a spectacular scene.

Be as surprising as possible :D

chevbrock
03-19-2008, 02:37 PM
Don't kill him - just injure him so he is incapable of walking and leave him in a village full of Amazons where he will live happily for the rest of his days! :)

William Cook
03-19-2008, 03:18 PM
I recall a trilogy by Michael Moorcock 'Count Brass' he chose to kill off his hero's by devoting single line epitaphs - 'Count Brass died thus ..

The sheer fact he bought them all back later on is neither here nor there :)

zornhau
03-19-2008, 03:40 PM
Make him old or maimed, so he can mentor but not follow the party.

Meanwhile, give the other aspects of his personality to somebody else - all the better if they conflict.

yappo
03-19-2008, 04:58 PM
Permanently :D

Sten

RJK
03-19-2008, 05:32 PM
He gets injured and must be left behind
He gets sick and must be left behind
He gets sent on a side mission and is out of your story for as many chapters as you want.
He steps in front of a bus and is in a coma for the rest of the story
Lots of things could happen that would get rid of the character for any amount of time you like.

Wolvel
03-19-2008, 06:16 PM
Fear takes over him as he runs away your protagonist kills him from behind like the coward he was in the end.

TwentyFour
03-19-2008, 06:22 PM
Do you have to kill him? If so, will it come back to haunt you?

DeleyanLee
03-19-2008, 06:47 PM
Merge him and another character you are keeping into a single character, a best friend or something instead of a mentor. Maybe look around and see if there's three characters you can mesh together and strengthen the story line instead of just two. Do a rewrite. It's not that bad, really. I've done it more than once and the book's always been better for it.

sportacus
03-19-2008, 07:00 PM
If it applies to your situation, make him a villain that had his own selfish reasons for helping. Have him attempt to kill the MC in his sleep, and the MC kills him, not knowing who it was.


Or something like that. That's how I'd handle it.

Dreamer3702
03-19-2008, 07:24 PM
I had this problem with one of my chars. I had to get rid of him... so he couldn't help the MC with the scenes to come. I didn't kill him off. He got a message that he had to go home immediately. He doesn't have time to talk about it and leaves immediately, promising to send a letter when/if he can. This got rid of him and gave my MC another thing to worry about.

The reason why he left might turn into a side plot later or a plot in itself. Or he might just come back saying his aunt was dying... I don't know yet, but it left open endless possibilities.

Stew21
03-19-2008, 07:52 PM
I've removed characters whose insight and mentorship was required. I merged them - attributing their good dialogue and conflict to one completely different character. It is doable.
I also like the option of the mentor not being physically present. Mentoring them before the journey (if they are on one). Your protags could talk about him often in a "What Would Mentor Do?" sort of way, keeping the spirit of the good stuff around, but the issues with the character not.
as for killing him:
Making him an obstacle the characters have to overcome - making him burdensome and difficult to deal with - you could still provide them with all of the things they need all while making him unlikable enough that his death is a relief to the audience and the protags.

hammerklavier
03-19-2008, 07:57 PM
Food poisoning, malaria, etc.

Wolvel
03-19-2008, 07:58 PM
Making him an obstacle the characters have to overcome - making him burdensome and difficult to deal with - you could still provide them with all of the things they need all while making him unlikable enough that his death is a relief to the audience and the protags.

+1
Totally agree.
Make the character hated so when the axe falls the reader will enjoy the momment with a purpose, if you don't build up to the death the whole scene and character death will suffer.

Jenan Mac
03-19-2008, 08:28 PM
Making him an obstacle the characters have to overcome - making him burdensome and difficult to deal with - you could still provide them with all of the things they need all while making him unlikable enough that his death is a relief to the audience and the protags.

I like this one, or the "double agent" thing. A twist on Double Agent would be that another minor character could realize he was really a bad guy first and have to kill him, quickly, without consulting Our Hero. Then Hero refuses to believe Minor Character was acting for good and not evil, and casts him aside over the murder, thus complicating things even more.

IdiotsRUs
03-19-2008, 08:40 PM
+1
Totally agree.
Make the character hated so when the axe falls the reader will enjoy the momment with a purpose, if you don't build up to the death the whole scene and character death will suffer.

Make him so hated one of your protags gets terminally annoyed and strangles him, to a round of applause from the rest.

Ervin
03-19-2008, 10:58 PM
You could simply have him take a separate path, maybe an issue comes up and he has to go elswhere. This way you can bring him back whenever you need him again.

Jaycinth
03-19-2008, 11:09 PM
Alien Attack
Belladonna
Cannibals
Defenestration
Exsanguination
Flailing
Gutting
Helium Bath
Icepick
JuJu (bad variety)
Knives
Lightening
Mulcher (Municipal size)
Night Hags
Oleander
Poaching (like an egg)
Quartering
Rats
Suffocation
Trampling
Umbrellas
Vindictive Vampires
Wild Walrus
X-rays
Yog Sothoth
Zamboni(run-away)

For more ideas see Haggis....

josephwise
03-19-2008, 11:09 PM
Suicide.

And I do not mean he should simply sacrifice himself for the good of others. It would be far more interesting than any other death, to have the mentor quietly spiral into depression and quietly slit his own wrists.

When does that ever happen, in a fantasy story? Probably not often enough to be a cliche.

If he's truly unbearable, he's probably aware of it. It's probably eating away at him.

dempsey
03-19-2008, 11:15 PM
Candlestick. In the Conservatory.

WriteKnight
03-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Suicide is not a bad idea. I say this because, in real life two of my own mentors did commit suicide, as odd as that might seem. One of them, was distraught over the death of his wife a year earlier, and took his own life. The other, highly respected and widely loved by the community - actually killed a woman, then took his own life.

In both cases, those of us left behind were faced with dealing with the questions about "Did we miss the signs of this?" as well as "You never really know what a person is capable of." Also, the legacy the mentor leaves behind - the good advice, the good works - will be viewed by your other characters as either TAINTED because of -or MORE PRECIOUS in spite of - the change at the end of the life. Something that could develop into tension between the remaining characters.

Shadow_Ferret
03-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Have him die in an unexpected and surprising manner, one that seems rather anti-climactic.

Like he pricks himself on a poison plant, realizes it and says, "I must leave you now." Ack!

Phaeal
03-19-2008, 11:28 PM
Just keep writing the story with this character left out. When you're finished with the entire draft, you'll be in a better position to go back and figure out what, if anything, you need to retain of the character's words and deeds and where you can fit it in.

Oh, and love the ABCs above. Yog-Sothoth is my favorite death mechanism. As one of the Outer Gods, it can manifest anywhere in the universe, including all fictional milieus, and so you could have it pop in and engulf the annoying Mentor any time you want. ;)

lute
03-19-2008, 11:42 PM
Candlestick. In the Conservatory.

That was amazing.

I think you have to remember that if you are considering publishing this, somewhere along the way, he will be a favorite character to somebody (even villains are favorite characters to some). That's why if you kill him, whatever you do (suicide, 'double agent,' etc.), do it well. As one of the main characters, his death should be justified and fit in with the rest of the novel. It should mean something. There's nothing I hate more than a character who dies for no reason or are removed merely as a plot device. Have it make sense with the rest of the book and it will work out nicely.

With all that said, I'm all for the suicide route. :) (that smiley face doesn't belong in this paragraph) I think you would gather a lot of sympathy with it (even though suicide is selfish, etc., etc.) because you can feel for the character greatly. Having had suicide prevalent in my family history, I would. And I don't think it's off-the-wall or unbelievable either.

dirtsider
03-19-2008, 11:43 PM
A migrant, man-eating industrial sized garbage container.... Or the Divine B**ch Slap. (He ticked off some God who reaches down out of the heavens and squashes him.)

People have given some really great answers. I'd like to see him do a suicide or "by his own stupidity" death, personally. Of course, you could have him go off on his own mission. That leaves you a lot of options - 1. he's a double agent, 2. he comes back when you're less frustrated with him, or 3. the MC's hear that he died (preferably in a spectacularly bloody/stupid manner).

ishtar'sgate
03-20-2008, 12:17 AM
While I'm at it anyway: have any of you had similar problems and if so, how did you solve them?
It wasn't a problem in my novel. It was all part of the plan. How did they die? The black plague took care of most of them, one died of smoke inhalation and one was burned at the stake. As previously stated, there are many ways to rid yourself of a troublesome character. Just make it believable and your readers will either cheer or get angry. As long as you elicit a response from the reader you'll know you've done it well.
Linnea

Feathers
03-20-2008, 12:26 AM
Do a plot twist. Make this guy, that's like everyone's mentor, turn out to be some creep working for the bad guys. If you don't like that, make him some creep that's working for himself, screwing with both the bad guys AND the goodguys at will. (Like Locke on lost. Gasp!)

Hope that helped

-Feathers

Oasilhael
03-20-2008, 02:16 AM
I think that the double agent and suicide ideas would work best for my pain-in-the-novel mentor (I was planning on having him be a double double double double agent, but that was a bit too complicated for the more denser of my readers to decipher). Perhaps I could consider having him betray the hero and then kill himself in shame at the climax of the book, when the hero is chasing him/confronting him?

Do you have to kill him? If so, will it come back to haunt you?

Haha....no dreams yet, but who knows?

Have him die in an unexpected and surprising manner, one that seems rather anti-climactic.
Like he pricks himself on a poison plant, realizes it and says, "I must leave you now." Ack!

Woah! Now why didn't I think of that before? "Suddenly, a large crow swooped down above his head and unloaded its waste upon him, blinding his eyes. Screaming, he ran about and tumbled off a nearby cliff, never to be seen again..."

HeronW
03-20-2008, 04:22 AM
Let the death be appropriate to who and what the character is. An infected hangnail in the hero won't wash, a slow poisoning from a wound taken a few chapters earlier is good, also duels with unexpected antagonists, saving someone important to the hero, etc.

Saundra Julian
03-20-2008, 04:54 AM
Could he just mysteriously disappear? That might thicken the plot for the other characters.

Chasing the Horizon
03-20-2008, 08:00 AM
I like the idea of suicide. Both your readers and the other characters will react more strongly to a suicide than any other type of death (learned that in my own writing).

David I
03-21-2008, 04:19 AM
Don't torque yourself too far out of shape trying to avoid cliche plot turns. The challenge is to make them seem new even if they are inevitable elements of the structure (so-called "obligatory scenes".)

I mean, how many times have you read the "hero confronts villain" scene? But leave it out and you will end up with a very dissatisfied reader.

Uncle Jim constantly suggests writers read books on stage magic. That's because misdirection is a powerful tool. It is possible to have a scene that appears to be about something other than the scene's true purpose.

Either that, or go with Jaycinth's run-away Zamboni...

kzmiller
03-21-2008, 07:56 PM
Merge him and another character you are keeping into a single character, a best friend or something instead of a mentor. Maybe look around and see if there's three characters you can mesh together and strengthen the story line instead of just two. Do a rewrite. It's not that bad, really. I've done it more than once and the book's always been better for it.

I have to agree with this, and the comment that it may be a good idea to keep writing the book without the character for now and see what happens.

I liked a lot of the suggestions for how to kill the character off or make them disappear, but unless the death or exit becomes integral to the plot and affects all the characters deeply henceforth, it's going to stick out. Readers are pretty clever beasts and they'll sense that the character is no longer serving a purpose. The writing might (notice this isn't a definite thing, it depends on how you handle it) reveal the writer behind the curtain. And the next time a character doesn't serve a purpose anymore--what then?

Why is the mentor running around with the group anyway? Does the character have his/her own purpose or is it convenient for your protagonist? Answer this question and it may help guide you.

Jaycinth
03-22-2008, 02:12 AM
You shall have to forgive this one, I do not usually think along these lines, but it is sunny, and I just ate chocolate...so...

The character is a hero and mentor to the others.

S/He dies saving them.
Example: They are crossing a wooden bridge over a flooding river. A big log comes along and smashes one end of the bridge. Hero/mentor jumps in the water, using rope and brawn to hold the bridge steady til the rest of them cross.

OH LOOK here comes another log, bigger than the first. Hero is exhausted, but surely s/he'll be able to climb on the disentegrating bridge, toss them the rope and be dragged to safety...

Oh no the bigger log snagged the rope, which has tightened on the hero and it drags him off, under the flood over the falls into the pool of giant great white vampire lamprey sharks.

Big cry, lesser hero takes the mantle and rides off inthe sunset on the zamboni with Yog Sothoth to defenestrate the evil king and give him the helium bath he deserves!

BigRed
03-22-2008, 02:41 AM
Well, you could do what I have to do with one of my characters. My MC's main sidekick is going to die in a futile attempt to save the MC's life. This in turn will provide the MC with motivation to move forward and become the hero that I envision him to be (I hope). It's tough though. I've become very fond of this guy and at times I like him more than my MC. But sometimes we have to sacrifice for the good of the story. Perhaps you can use this person's death as motivation for your MC? Just a thought.

Phil DeBlanque
03-22-2008, 03:36 AM
Or... you could bring him to the spotlight. Center a chapter or two around him. Then, kill him, in a very detailled scene - can you make the bullet take one paragraph from the moment it leaves the gun to the moment of the impact? I know you can.
It'll make the readers nervous. It'll make them hate you. It'll make them shout: "How can this @#$% kill Joe?"

But will also made them want to finish reading the tale :D

Jaycinth
03-22-2008, 05:18 AM
Read George R.R. Martin. He kills everybody. All the time. He makes you love them...then he kills them.

Badda Bing...Badda Boom.

Oasilhael
03-23-2008, 04:37 AM
All righty then, suicide it is. Let's see if I can fit that into my novel someplace...

KAP
03-23-2008, 05:11 AM
Alien Attack
Belladonna...Umbrellas...Zamboni(run-away)


Can all those deaths be worked into one novel. Creating 26 characters would be cumbersome, but maybe eight characters could die three times and the ninth that dies only twice becomes the ultimate survivor and gets a million dollars or becomes lead singer or something.

But what I really want to see is the umbrella death. Yikes.

jenstrikesagain
03-23-2008, 10:47 PM
I had my leading lady beat the bad guy to death with a fireplace shovel. It was fun. However, I very carefully avoided stating that the guy was actually dead in case I decided to bring him back later. Which of course I did. He's my favorite character. :) Confidential to Roland: Sorry about the right eye, dude. I'll be more careful next time.

jannawrites
03-24-2008, 01:37 AM
Suicide.


This is just what I was going to suggest. There's something very intriguing about a leader-type fellow, with a hidden life or something, whose stresses, guilts, whatever, get to be so overwhelming he takes his own life.